ARROWS vs ARMOUR 2 - Is this Crossbow the same as Joe?

[@ac1dflare937]

What amazed me the most was the arrows spin rotation from the longbow Vs the zero spin on the crossbow. I never knew bows imparted rotation! Curious of it's affect if any on long range accuracy

[@randomcdude4430]

It is not the bow per se that imparts the spin. It is the fletching mostly and the amount of spin will vary with degree of helical or offset of the fletchings. A twisted bow string will impart a slight bit as well because of the way the nock comes off the string (string clock). If these two things spin the arrow the same way, then you get faster spin than if the fletching has to first overcome the string clocking. Ask 2 archers which is a better combination of string clocking and fletching helical and you will get 3 opinions. On the other hand the crossbow string is pushing on a flatter surface since you don't nock an arrow on the crossbow string in the same way. So I think the difference in spin of Joe and Tod's arrows comes down to differences in the fletchings, which would also be seen in battlefield arrows since no two arrows will ever be fletched exactly the same (even using modern jigs and glues variation exists). But in general arrows that spin are more stable, resistant to wind influence, accurate, and thus SHOULD penetrate better (better more stable arrow flight results in a more square impact and thus better delivery of force and thus better penetration). There is loads of information about arrow flight and penetration from the bow hunting community (loads of opinions too).

[@Catsincages]

​@@randomcdude4430 What generates arrow spin here is the friction of the arrow running over the stave of the bow for almost its entire length (of the arrows shaft), and it (the arrow) being bent under tension as it does so. This is why there is none with the crossbow.

[@thomaspopa3354]

@@Catsincages that’s the arrow oscillation where it flexes to and fro. Arrow spin comes from the fletching as the air glides over the feathers and imparts torque

[@Catsincages]

@@thomaspopa3354 No. The force that causes the oscillation and the spin are generated from energy being lost under friction as the arrow moves over and around the bow stave, it is not from any presumed twist in the string caused by the archers hand or the fletchings. The crossbow releases had both a string and fletchings in play but the arrow barely span and osculated far less This is because is no bending of the arrow under tension as it crosses a point of friction; thus that difference is clearly what is primarily causing the oscillation and the spin seen only in the bow releases.

[@tods_workshop]

This is very interesting and odd. The fletchings are what imparts the spin, but of course do this because they pass through the air at speed. However this singular fact is true of both longbow and simulator arrows. They were taken from the same stock and so although not identical, should be similar and so should perform the same; spin the same. So either the spin is there and we are not seeing it, or the spin is not there, which is really interesting. I suspect the real answer is that the simulator arrow has slightly 'less spiny' fletches and we did use the same arrow again and again. We have another film coming up with loads of slo mo where the simulator is the motive force and every last arrow is used so that will show truly if the simulator arrows spin or not. If the answer is 'not' then presumably this may effect penetration.

[@randalthor741]

Every time I see Joe shoot a bow it always strikes me how different his technique is from what you always see in movies, with the way he leans forward and uses all his muscles to draw it rather than just standing straight and using only his arms. I've seen tons of medieval illustrations of archers from manuscripts & such where they were leaning forward to shoot the same way that Joe does, and until I saw Joe shooting I always thought that was just a popular stylistic choice made by the illustrators. Now, thanks to Joe, I understand that it's a technique to be able to shoot a heavy draw weight bow effectively without tiring your arms out after only a few arrows.

[@katecapek3116]

Yes. And he damn near folds his right shoulder back like a wing. The flexibility is as impressive as the strength.

[@wittsullivan8130]

You can easily tell the movie bows are 25lbs or 50lbs at most, not 160 lbs. I've got a 55 lb double recurve. It's tough, I can't imagine a 160 lb draw.

[@aburoach9268]

some illustrations also show them leaning backwards like Shad mentioned

[@wetincornwall6882]

Heard tell Kevin Costner used a longbow with a mighty 26lb draw.

[@anomalyp8584]

every archer firing heavier weights does this! It's really fun to see that if you don't know, you miss these things and you think it's a silly cartoonist drawing these things.

[@sinisterthoughts2896]

What I find amazing is how incredibly consistent Joe is.

[@ArniesTech]

He is for real an archery Terminator 💪

[@ramblingimbecile2295]

Came to say the same thing. I could watch Joe shoot arrows all day, a master of his craft

[@michaelnewell9662]

@@ramblingimbecile2295 the sound it makes is so much better than that boring crossbow - but the end results are as close as can be

[@alexdenisov7912]

Joe is no doubt amazing and incredible but a modern crossbow is unsurprisingly more consistent than a longbow.

[@GCCRACER]

Very impressive how consistent Joe's speeds are. Didn't expect the arrow to fishtail that much from a crossbow. All these details you take into account, they really show how scientifically sound you went at the question.

[@littlekong7685]

I think its a fascinating mix between the arrowhead pulling down (Relative to the rest of the arrow), the fletching pulling up and trying to spin the arrow, all while being pushed by the string. This ends with a wobble that more of less keeps everything flying in the right direction.

[@GCCRACER]

@@littlekong7685 Yep, and also it's a substantial amount of force from a "not quite perfectly centered/balanced" system, so you are bound to get asymetric loads and the flexible material will react accordingly. But yeah, as blindingly obvious it seems now, if I hadn't watched this today, I would have never considered it.

[@christopherstafford227]

Watching the slow-mo of Joe shooting really makes you appreciate the impact of firing an arrow has on the shooter and the bow. The arrow flexes sure, but watching Joe’s body absorb the recoil, all while holding the important aiming bits perfectly still, is amazing to see.

[@peterbradbury784]

You do not fire arrows. You shoot or loose a bow. You fire guns.

[@Nyx_2142]

@@peterbradbury784 This doesn't make you cool or interesting, it only makes you obnoxious.

[@seanheath4492]

I remember reading that they could look at skeletal remains and tell if someone was an archer from the effects a lifetime of pulling those heavy draw weights had on their body.

[@heygek2769]

@@seanheath4492 Yes, bigger shoulderblades and skewed shoulders and arm lengths. Presumably you could tell if someone was a longbowman just from their posture.

[@PrimatoFortunato]

Joe's so kind to share his skill and time with all of us

[@stalkingtiger777]

I love how you're going so in-depth with this. I bet this series will be a point of reference for years to come.

[@tods_workshop]

we hope so

[@christopherneelyakagoattmo6078]

The "angry look" on Joe's face i can feel that in my sore back every time. I've shot 90+ lb weight enough to appreciate the effort involved. Angry does not begin to describe what is going on upon release. Every muscle from the top of your quads, glutes, abs, through your back, shoulders, your neck, all goes out of balance in that instant. I'm pretty sure i would crap my pants shooting 160 lbs, if I could even manage the pull to 3/4-7/8 draw length. A true master to shoot on demand a dozen in an afternoon. Salute, sir.

[@resurgam_b7]

Nice calm and serene Tod as he aims and fires... then Joe over here looking like he's going to grimace the target to death before his arrow even gets the chance to skewer it 😂 This was a very informative video, and I appreciate that you are finally testing your claim that the lockdown longbow is equivalent to an actual longbow. I suspected that it would be similar, but it is nice to see the demonstration so clearly and thoroughly.

[@IntenseKravMaga]

Yeah, you can really see, what strength, tecjnique and effort is needed to pull the bow

[@rovingapothecary7708]

You gotta love the Archers Paradox.. I notice Tod's arrows flex in the up and down range of movement... Joe's flex side to side... I loose only 120lb Longbow and that hurts enough, I have to applaud Joe for being able to draw 160lbs, That is dedication.Very interesting as always, Top Marks Guy's, Thank You for another great video

[@valandil7454]

Joe can consistantly pull a 200lb which would've been something only a few people could do even back then, I'm only upto 100lb which would've been the majority so you should be proud of that nice one 🙂

[@AC-um2mk]

I'm wondering if the direction of flex affects the aerodynamics in any significant way so as affect the speed/deceleration/trajectory?

[@mediocrefunkybeat]

Joe pulling the 200Ib bow is ridiculous. I can't even fathom that!

[@valandil7454]

@@mediocrefunkybeat it's the current world record I think 😄

[@katecapek3116]

@@mediocrefunkybeat if you search Hillbilly Bows, he has several clips with the super heavies - both a 200 and a 210 that I remember seeing. FWIW, the woodworking itself is worth having a glimpse of - really lovely finish work.

[@VosperCDN]

As a wiser mind has said, “The difference between screwing around and science is writing it down.” It was great seeing how close the Longbow Simulator turned out to be.

[@fryeday]

It's certainly close enough for these kind of real world tests. In fact, I imagine that scholars in this field will find the information in these findings, and the forthcoming experiments to be useful.

[@kareningram6093]

I'm glad to see that, on paper, the two bows are similar enough that you can use either, depending on the test you're running. But I really enjoy watching Joe and listening to his expert opinion. There are certain things he can feel with the behavior of the bow and the arrows that I would imagine are lost when you use a mechanism to do most of the work. It's that kind of intuition that can really help when analyzing the data. Everybody on this channel is like that, really; the fletcher, the armorer, etc. There's nothing better than seeing masters work at their craft and speak passionately about it. I'm so glad I found this channel. Thank you to all of you for everything you do.

[@tods_workshop]

I agree. The simulator does a job; Joe is an artist

[@rhamph]

Joe's error is actually really good here as a demonstration of the variability of a real bow. You've shown that the variability of a bow is greater than the differences between a bow and a crossbow. In essence it's an idealized snapshot of what a bow can do, more bow than a real bow.

[@tods_workshop]

I agree and in a way that's why we left it in the film, simply to show that the simulator is completely reliable whilst human are not, however good they are

[@vivianevans8323]

Thanks for this new video in the A v A II series - 'tis like a surprise Christmas gift!. That series is evolving into a truly important collection of information now, with this video adding another piece. It's good to know that the longbow simulator really does the job of simulating a longbow - but then again, as was said in the video: the longbow as used by Joe has all the romance ... Merry Christmas, Tod and Joe - and to all who are addicted to A v A II!

[@thcdreams654]

I guess the conclusion is that I wouldn't want to get shot by either one. Great work, love all your work. Always cool to see Joe too, that dude is a machine. Thanks and happy Holidays.

[@entropy11]

I think an issue with the zero meter measurement is Joe's arrows are still accelerating on the string. That would easily give you the higher velocity at 10 than at 0. I'd say have tests start at 2 meters, because arrows are long!

[@pyotrbezukhov]

The chrony should be at least a full arrow length from the back of the bow, so that would mean the chrony should be no closer than 31.5", or 80cm, from the bow's back.

[@Arrek8585]

Who knew handcrafted arrows had second stage booster rockets.

[@wierdalien1]

Gyro-jet arrows

[@xxxxSylphxxxx]

The fact that you ran this comparison, and published results, is *such* a credit to your honestly and your adherence to the scientific method. Amazing video! Thankyou for your dedication!

[@steveschainost7590]

Tod does not have the 'correct' heavy bow grimace on his face. Don't know if that affects the results.

[@jrrarglblarg9241]

👍

[@gthack371]

Great stuff! I can't believe how hard it must be to shoot a 160lb bow. I literally weigh that amount and seeing Joe just repeatedly pull my weight time after time after time is incredible! Was it really compulsory to practice every day back in the day? Watching this I can totally understand why that would be necessary. Anyway, great series of videos!!

[@gusty9053]

Shad from the Shadiversity channel gave longbow a try, it took him months of practice to get to something similar like a "medium" war bow and he is/was in reasonably good shape. But he pointed out you need to develop a different set of muscles and too have the stamina needed for a battle not just on or two target practice shots, and then be able to fight hand to hand if needed ... uff ... i can believe they had to practice constantly. He has a video where he showcases "drawing" techniques depicted in medieval art and how they seem not only accurate to the actual techniques used but all the styles seem viable and with a lot of though / experience put in them depending on the intended target.

[@SonsOfLorgar]

Damn, I haven't weighed below 200lb since I was 19 and fresh out of 10 months conscript training

[@lancealex5058]

@@gusty9053 shad isnt in good shape lol come on, matt , skall, ralph and jason all r in better shape and jason is over 50 a powerlifter will be able to shoot around 80- 100 pound bow with a month of training, but to reach joe's level of shooting 160 all day they will need a few years

[@pyotrbezukhov]

Speaking from experience, when you develop good technique, you quickly find that you can comfortably handle a lot more draw weight. Good technique means that you resist a large proportion of the bow's draw weight with your bones, by bringing them into alignment, instead of with your muscles and tendons. Toward the end of your draw, as your bones come into alignment and start bearing the load, the feeling is kind of similar to the feeling of let-off you get with compound bows. Once you get this technique down, you find that you can comfortably shoot bows for hours that you struggled to shoot even a dozen arrows from before.

[@Mark-ko6qg]

That's not how bow weight works...

[@jarrakul]

I always basically bought the longbow-simulator argument, but it's absolutely an empirical question, and it's very much to your credit as researchers that you tested it here. I agree that these tests are very convincing. The numbers are quite similar, and more surprisingly, the footage of the wobble is shockingly hard to tell apart.

[@OrbusS]

While I watched this video, another 1000 people also watched it... Tod et al is really getting the info out there its awesome

[@dingodave89]

Really interesting to see just how similar the 2 different bows perform. Other than the slight drop in arrow flex, they're almost identical in performance.

[@StevieB8363]

Almost. But in the final figures, the crossbow had 19% more power going on the energy figure. IMHO, Todd should de-tune the crossbow slightly so it delivers the same energy . That would make for a near-perfect comparison.

[@dingodave89]

@@StevieB8363 not sure where you pulled 19% from as that would make the crossbow a 5th more powerful than the longbow and that is not what we see in the data at all. The power difference is more like 2% or 3% which makes for a very accurate comparison when you take into account the human errors from Joe, like his occasional forward loose.

[@StevieB8363]

Look at the comparison table at 13:57. The longbow has 95 joules at 60 meters, the crossbow has 113 - 19% higher.

[@dingodave89]

@@StevieB8363 on a shot that was forward loosed 😂😂 the human error factor in this test. If you're going to add a timestamp, make sure it's right and isn't just the end of the video.

[@StevieB8363]

@@dingodave89 My mistake. The comparison is at 12:32

[@coolsenjoyer]

The fact that you strictly speaking didn't need Joe's talents since the crossbow is technically more consistent and accurate, but you did anyway, made this series so much cooler

[@jimbenge9649]

Loved this video as I have all those during the year. There are so many questions it raises, and a few it answers but for now may I wish you, Joe, all your guest experts and the rest of the team a very merry Christmas. 🌲

[@ShinPG]

This series is the gift that keeps on giving.

[@Smallathe]

Absolutely a wonderful accuracy test. Well done! :)

[@wolja]

The effort to publish a comparison between the two types of bow is commendable. I love the well we're saying this and here's the evidence attitude. Awesome.

[@jannerwingfeather]

This was a pleasure to watch! I have enjoyed every one of the videos in this series! And eagerly await the next installments!

[@pyrokinetikrlz]

Joe is a stud! Always amazes me when he shoots them arrows!

[@commissarkordoshky219]

Absolute Chad.

[@chrisgorman1652]

Imagine being one of the poor French peasants being marched into the battlefield with 5000 Joe’s ready to let loose.

[@axistec]

Good job lads! It's amazing to see the arrows flexing in slow motion footages. Joe Gibbs shooting is pure art.

[@Uncle_T]

Always a pleasure to see more of Joe shooting his bow and Tod shooting his Joe Mk2.

[@extrasmack]

This is why you gentlemen are a treasure. Thank you all for taking the time to test the mysteries and questions we've all had in the most accurate and realistic manner possible. Your content is leagues beyond anything that came before, including large productions with much larger budgets.

[@walksfarwolf6070]

These are great. Getting closer to answering questions I have had since childhood. Thank you for doing these videos.

[@meridock]

love this series.

[@Kris-ym2zr]

I love the commitment to making sure the two are comparable. Thanks for the video

[@petereffin4373]

Keep up the great work fellas.

[@Raz.C]

I absolutely LOVE the amount of detail you guys are delving into, to explore this idea of armour vs arrows!

[@sanderson9338]

Another top upload very informative congrats to the team 👏

[@MissesWitch]

I really liked watching how Joe's arm recoiled as he released the arrow! It shows just how much tension and force he's got on there! It's really impressive stuff!

[@nowherefool5869]

this series is so awesome.

[@dm1126]

Best xmas present another great video

[@WingNutRC]

I realize it's out of the scope/topic of the series, but it be neat to see both of your arrows, inflight, with a line drawn following the waggle of the tip and the tail, the variation in each trajectory and how large is the flight distance in which the arrow is flying off axis from a straight line from A to B. Thanks Tod and team. These are very interesting to watch!

[@regularguy8110]

Another episode is a great holiday gift. Thank you and a great video.

[@TheGeezzer]

Mery Xmas Tod & Co and may you have a prosperous New Year!

[@chrisjones6002]

It's always great to watch the two of you together. Joe's skill is nothing short of amazing.

[@another3997]

Thanks for the incredible amount of time and work you all put in to these videos. They provide a fascinating insight in to the behaviour of two iconic, yet quite different weapons. They also highlight the differences in strength and skill required to use them effectively, and of course Joe's incredible consistency. Can't wait for the next installments.

[@Smo1k]

Knowing statistics from engineering, I can only say well bloody done! If this is three days of work put into one summary, you're about 5-6 times more thorough than the concrete sampling done to build the world's longest bridges and deepest tunnels. Pat yourselves on the shoulders, Tod and Joe, you earned it!

[@Ian-mj4pt]

Love watching how you take this to the level where you look at all aspects of the flight not just the historical bias but the facts

[@iainburgess8577]

Thank you for this video. There's a few points covered but not emphasised *Any archer has wider range in their shot speed/force due to tiny differences in draw/release; Joe gave us examples in his forward release & point that he could match the speed of the "simulator" just by drawing back that bit more. *There were a Lot of archers; most weren't shooting at this draw weight, judging by the range of bows discovered. *Bow weight represented; I believe Joe W a 160lb bow is in the top third? in the range of known historical weights; this Is the best option for the longbow while still representing a the whole range of bow weights. All together, this makes Joe W bow, the "bow simulator", & the sample armour (as per the materials tested in that vid) good general representative examples for testing. We're there better bows or armours? Yes, some; there were even more that were worse. This is testing for battles of armies; maybe only a few hundred knights total, but you still have a range of possibility. These choices, in these tests, are effectively testing slightly better than the probable overall average, the practical "what they could actually field" example.

[@lukeblundell5610]

That level of change between the two methods of arrow delivery is of an insignificant difference... Which is great for further testing 👏🏻 well done all!

[@themigshed1185]

Next modification... Making a riser/ "spinner" on the end of the crossbow to impart a tiny bit of rotation. The spin may give some slight improvement to penetration. Unsure if the RPM is enough to make any difference but a fun thought none the less. Another great video gents, thanks for taking the time to do this.

[@duaneliptakjr493]

Really interesting. I would have thought that the larger paradox from the longbow might scrub some additional speed off the arrow until it settled out, and maybe some from the additional drag from what appears to be a greater helical on the warbow arrow fletching, but the difference in velocity loss was negligible. I do imagine that the greater paradox of the longbow might affect penetration in some minor way due to differences in "mass behind the point" in impact vector due to minor shaft misalignment at impact, as can be a problem with unstable flight in modern archery systems, but only at very close range...they both seem to stabilize nicely and seem to have "equivalent" flight stability after 10-15 meters. Excellent and informative series with real science that addresses the variables better than any other effort I've ever seen. Bravo!

[@ptonpc]

Fascinating video as always. I'd be interested to see how Joe was after the three days.

[@valandil7454]

In pain I'd imagine 😄

[@blue_beephang-glider5417]

As you say, the oscillation. Joe's arrows get a bow and vibrate while in flight, the crossbow bed keeps the shafts straighter. These wobbles would cause extra drag and vary shot from shot. Joe does an amazing job of correcting for this. Great to watch 🍺😎👍

[@chadherbert18]

Nice work! I’m satisfied that your crossbow is close enough to draw conclusions as per the real thing. The difference in wobble likely won’t effect entry into the target much as most of the wobble happens at the beginning of the shot, or so it seemed - maybe more so for really short distances? Fun!

[@Acroballistics]

Great work awesome analysis! Thanks for doing this

[@ArniesTech]

Wonderful Christmas gift, Todd 💪❤️ BTW: 2:16 this Shot and camera angle reminds me of your old videos of 11th and 12th century crossbows with yew bows 💪🙏

[@EnglishCountryLife]

Wow your weather is better then ours 😉 Merry Christmas Todd & Joe. Thanks for the fascinating videos

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks and filmed in July

[@MultiOhioman]

I occasionally forward loose on a 60# modern long bow. It happens. I love the dedication you all have shown in trying to get to the truth. I’m still a little flummoxed as to how archery was so effective on full armor as the claim is sometimes made. It obviously had a serious impact ( no pun intended) on the out come of various battles. Thank you!

[@michelguevara151]

a truly fascinating series, todd> bravo!

[@PoeticSonic]

man i love your videos, it adds so much world building to novels that i'm making

[@paul72002]

all I can add is a heartfelt THANK YOU and Merry Christmas to all involved

[@neutralfellow9736]

Could you please do a video showing the energy loss like at 5:40 but for longer distance? It would be really neat to see how much an arrow shot from a warbow loses J after some 70-80 meters, or even 100m.

[@chopsddy3]

Brilliant test. Very enlightening.👍 Your longbow simulator is remarkably similar to the longbow. I’m looking forward with exited anticipation toward the next episodes.

[@alexdenisov7912]

I highly appreciate Tod’s (and Joe’s) scientific approach, using of metric system and tables as well)

[@DemianX6x6x6X]

tis a good christmas to have another one of these awesome videos of these awesome gentlemen, best wishes to you both (and anyone else reading) cheers

[@adambielen8996]

Always great to see Joe and Todd talk shop. And yeah, those numbers are close enough to be within human error margins.

[@picaro85]

Rigorous experimentation, to your best abilities and circumstances, well done. We still want to see plenty of Joe, of course. For the romance of the thing.

[@rayq1234]

Loved the bow simulator and why it is needed. But you still need Joe to come back on stage some times! :D Great film as always, thanks!

[@chiseldrock]

BEST OF THE SEASON! to you and all the team Todd.

[@stuart9514]

Happy Christmas Todd and all the arrows vs armour crew. Brilliant content!

[@philipplume6605]

Your attention to detail is one of the things that makes your videos so amazing 👏 great work as always

[@robertkitchen2779]

Hello Tod and Joe. Great video series!!! As a former Canadian Forces Master Sniper, I am fascinated with these videos, not only for the historical aspects, but also in regard to the study of ballistics. Speaking of the arrow oscillations and flexing reminded me of some ballistics reading I did during a Sniper detachment Commander's Course several years ago now. I remember reading that most bullets penetrated further into hard targets at extended ranges (Hard to remember but I think 5.56mm penetrated best at around 300m) and had a "sweet spot" in that range. This surprised me as one would think the more energy (at point blank range for example) the more penetration. A couple of theories were suggested 1. that the bullet was not as stabilized at those close ranges and would yaw upon striking the target 2. At a certain velocity the projectile would more easily shatter rather than maintain its shape and continue to penetrate. Food for thought. I'd be interested to know if you noticed any penetration differences with added range.

[@lscibor]

I thought that 5.56 at close rangers has just so much energy compared to it's size that bullet spins/shatters/tumbles in the wound or any other target and it's energy is spent in much more violent way than at some lower velocities, thus it can lead to lesser penetration. Certainly 5.56 fired from the pistol generally doesn't tumble as violently as one fired from the rifle, and penetrates ballistic gel somehow smoothly. Arrows that do not even have 200J of energy generally won't produce any effects like that though.

[@manatoa1]

I expect arrows to penetrate less at very close distances before the arrows flight stabilizes. As the arrow goes downrange, drag on the fletching and shaft pulls the shaft into position behind the head. Before that happens, the shaft is usually flying somewhere off the axis of the head. If it strikes off axis, The weight of the shaft will make the arrow rotate around the impact point, instead of using the shaft's momentum to drive the point into the target.

[@wittsullivan8130]

The way Joe leans forward always gets me. He's putting every muscle in his upper body into it.

[@euansmith3699]

This has been such a fun series of videos; and, indeed, archery is magical in slo-mo.

[@DibutilFtalat]

Regardless of how crossbow is similar to the longbow, it will never match Joe in the picture! Please, get more Joe in your videos, he is to great! :)

[@steamboatmodel]

Very well done, took my mind back to the late 60s and high school doing velocity calculations.

[@jm9371]

1000 year old tech with a top dog shooter against modern tech.... BEST HOLIDAY GIFT EVER. Thanks Tod and Joe!

[@sebastianucero7535]

Besides being a wonderful video and excelent job, this helps Joe inmensly, to clarify whats probably he suspected (when tired, he let the string forward by an inch or 2) And probes that the "test bed" with the crossbow is an accurate (95-98%) representation. For the OCD people like me, this kind of videos are amazing. Thank You!

[@tods_workshop]

A pleasure

[@oneshotme]

Another great video Tod!!!!! Enjoyed your video and I gave it a Thumbs Up

[@tomtruesdale6901]

Very well-done video Gentlemen. I think using the longbow simulator will be the way to go as you stated. I will say Joe has a great "war face" when shooting the bow. Merry Christmas to y'all from Texas USA

[@liamjohnston2000]

One thing I noticed from the videos taken from behind the two of you while shooting was the fact that the arrow shot from Joe's longbow is spinning while the arrow shot from Tod's crossbow is not. While it ended up having very little impact on the final results for speed and momentum, I'm curious as to if there is something that would be affected by it in tests.

[@jonathancleghorn2725]

I noticed the same and wondered also

[@pyotrbezukhov]

Some trivially small amount of translational kinetic energy (or linear momentum if you want to think of it that way) gets converted to rotational kinetic energy/angular momentum. If you'd like, I have software for modelling rocket flight that could easily model arrow flight. It would quantify very precisely the effect of rotation on the arrow's flight parameters.

[@CreepyMF]

Great stuff both informative and entertaining. Merry Christmas evryone.

[@Billybobble1]

What a great way to illustrate combat pushing technology forward; lighter, faster and easier to handle, the damage is the same, but the ferocity of delivery is increased substantially. Unfortunately this test crushes one of my favourite lines from the TV show 'Peep Show', "The longbow beats the crossbow, my idiotic friend." Well, apparently not! Fantastic slow motion shots in this one, love it! Thanks Tod, Joe & team.

[@rring44]

I think the crossbow is totally fine for testing purposes. I am now thinking we need more data points from other archers shooting 160lbs bows. How similar will arrow speeds be between different archers shooting similar bows?

[@foldionepapyrus3441]

Indeed, though we need them shooting the exact same bow in the same conditions really! And I don't think it hugely matters if its dropped to the nominal 80-100lbs bow to get more shooters able to contribute - as here we want to know the spread in archer rather more than the destructive capacity so a bigger dataset on a weaker bow is IMO better than the tiny dataset of folks that can shoot the extra heavy stuff... Just to know your tiny little archer can still shoot a warbow in the same performance ballpark as the giants of the human race who will have the extra few inches of draw potential.

[@rring44]

@@foldionepapyrus3441 I am curious how different 160lbs bows in terms of power etc too.

[@aussiebloke609]

@@rring44 I wouldn't think it would make a difference - the weapon is still imparting that 160 lb of pull onto the shaft. "Other archers shooting 160 lb bows" (assuming they actually pull back to the full 160 lb - no point having a bow that heavy otherwise) is like having different snipers shooting the same rifle with the same ammunition. The effect on the target should be identical, with only aim and stamina affected.

[@XtreeM_FaiL]

I don't believe more archers would make any difference, but more bows with same draw weight might.

[@foldionepapyrus3441]

@@aussiebloke609 With the way the wood spring acts and how it ramps up in draw weight for distance drawn every archer is going to get something a little different out of the same bow. That 160 bow still has a point even if they don't pull it back quite that far as they are not large enough - its still going to be giving them more than a lighter bow at their draw length. Very different to the rifle where weapon is doing all the work so being shot by a hobbit wouldn't make a difference to the projectile...

[@HereticalKitsune]

Fascinating video and results!

[@Trindal]

I love archery and shooting anything with a projectile. I’ve shot competition 3D archery with a compound bow and even was a member of a marksmanship team in high school. Something that is a;most nonexistent in public schools these days. I also hunted and absolutely loved more challenging targets/ rifle calibers, like squirrel and a .22 rather than a 410 shotgun. Unfortunately I got injured and could no longer compete or bow hunt. Even hunting with a firearm was an issue due to most hunting seasons where in the fall. The cold turned me into the tin man in the rain with no oil. It also took 2-4 days to recover from one afternoon in the woods. It did allow me to try crossbows though. The one I had was huge with a crank to pull the string back, it looks more like the heavier duty ones they had on stands. I was able to modify it so I could actually dial in the range exactly. Then it had a scope to give better visibility and accuracy of target locations. I think the farthest grouping I ever attempted was 90 yards. I had to stop shooting the 3 shot groups I was familiar with because I was destroying bolts. Busting nocks off and ripping fletchings off and splitting the carbon fiber shafts. For me it looked more like a rifle grouping with all 3 holes touching each other. Even at 80+ yards. I actually hit an 80 yard shot on a deer. Reloading was not an option though because it took to long and was very loud. I had to make that single shot count. I don’t get to shoot anything right now since we moved. My archery target isn’t strong enough to stop the bolts as well as my shed wall that was my backstop for the target just in case. I am actually curious about soldiers that did get injured badly and still survived. It doesn’t seem to matter the century, the “survival of the fittest” is a concern to me. Because a disability leaves you with vulnerabilities that could be advantageous to an attack. It’s a problem that has worried me a good bit for mine and my families personal safety. I actually fear that if a person attacks me without a weapon and I protect myself using my cane, that I would be the one that ended up in jail, and sued by the attacker and their families… I’m a disabled vet, i barely make enough to cover living expenses. If I got sued even if the lawsuit was thrown out, I’d still have to pay legal fees. It’s bad enough living with constant pain and a 2yr old to care for. I served for 10 years and never thought that I would end up hurt or that I would have to worry about being jailed or sued in the country I served for getting attacked. I am also a supporter of our 2nd amendment and being able to not only own a firearm, but also use it to protect my family. But again, I worry that if I have to use it what would happen. How many punches and kicks would I need to take for lethal force to be used?… I know that shooting to wound is a myth. There’s no “shoot them in the arm/leg targets or civilian or military training for that sort of thing. Your doing good to hit a truck with that much adrenaline pumping and being struck.. I guess I’m curious if those wounded soldiers had the ability to protect themselves and family in some way, and how they where cared for by their leaders once they got sent back home? Love your work! If I could find a homemade power hammer, I’m hoping to do more Blacksmithing stuff myself. I’ve got a small knife forge, my tongs broke though the first time I tried to use them so I have to save up and get a cheap set off Amazon or something(I got them the forge and a small piece of railroad track to use as an anvil all pretty used, the only way I could afford it). It’s something I’ve always wanted to do, even if I can’t do very much in one go. I really want to try gunsmithing but the barrier for entry is just to high for me now. Best of luck.

[@EdAllen]

It would be nice to see some of the miniatures sculptors modeling the posture of their archers on Joe. His stance to pull the heavy bow is really different from the usual mini.

[@stefanovanenio]

Another really informative video, thanks Todd and team

[@beepboop204]

Tasting History is the show i watch with mom, Tod and Matt are what i watch with dad 😉

[@David0lyle]

Some valuable data at here. I’d like to thank your archer for his contribution. It’s worth knowing how someone shoots again and again. In the historical events archers were sleeping in barns, eating something frightful and shooting the bow over and over again. 🤔 We don’t really know how they did but we know more than we did.

[@zedre7633]

Besides the great results, it's always so enlightening seeing a bow and crossbow, albeit a modern one this time, being paired and shot. Seeing the slowmo footage and the posture, technique and sheer effort on Joe's face to loose on that beastly piece of wood, compared to Todd's absolute stoic posture and semblance on the trigger pull. It's easy to see why the two weapons were competitive despite their practicality/complexity/speed differences.

[@whydoesthismatter]

Outstanding work

[@thefatefulforce8887]

Joe's bow is subject to a bit of human error which accounts for a bit more variance in speeds and thus energy production. This is going to be 100% natural. A 1/2 inch draw length will affect the speed by +/-5* FPS. We can see in the shot where he got 187fps it was his longest draw length and in his slower shots, they were the shots that he had some arow creep/forward loosing. Again this is not a criticism, it is 100% normal. Small variations will occur in a human-powered equipment. But I think Todd nails it. His longbow simulator is going to perform within the spectrum of a heavy warbow so it still is a great tool to use for tests. We just have to remember the context that his xbow will be a little more consistent vs a human in giving us a tighter grouping of arrow performance. So when it comes to armor testing we just have to take that small caveat into consideration b/c a "poorer" shot from a longbow archer may be defeated by some armor where typically the bow would succeed. And these seemingly random events can be attributed to the variance on the lower end of the Longbow over a series of shots due to slight archer error. I saw similar results in my armor tests which could attribute to some of the randomnesses of the results. But if you throw enough arrows down range, you should be able to plot consistent data by virtue of the laws of averages.

[@outdoordiscoverer1700]

First: Thank all of you guys for this AvA 2 Series !!!. It´s the kind of testing i was locking for ages, fantastik job, well done. 2nd: About the diffrences between the bow and crossbow shooting is ... that the arrow from the bow has to do to make a curve to come around the bow, because when you would look right in a straight line, the string and the bow are in line, but the arrow shows to the left - you can see it really clear, because the arrow is more wobbeling, than shoot it from the flat surface / slide surface from the crossbow. And this cost energie. But im exiting to see more about this kind of contend. Maybe next time you are able to make a more battle field like test - to shooting in a long distance curve, what are the diffrence. maybe you are able to get a hole crew of knight´s and Bowmens to tell us what does it feel like to run throuh a rain of arrows (of course with blunted tips ; )) ... and what are the Bowmen feeling about shooting that count of arrows ... : )

[@Tipfehler]

Great as always!

[@alanfrazer3291]

Excellent work from both of you 👍 i would wager even 2 bows with the same draw weight would produce those speed variations we saw between the bow and crossbow.

[@manfredconnor3194]

This is awesome! You guys are just awesome!