Artists React to The Marvel Method

[@ComicDrake]

Always a pleasure to get invlolved. Thanks for having me, Chris!

[@sharkysharkerson]

If nobody said anything, I would have just assumed it was actual footage of Jack Kirby.

[@ComicTropes]

It’s always fun to have an excuse to collaborate. Thanks for stepping in!

[@theplatitudefromouterspace1686]

Welcome to Comic Tropes, where my name is Comic, and I talk about tropes!

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​@@ComicTropes hey, btw, There's a detail you forgot in your video, as John Romita actually contradicted what Kirbu said, as in an interview Romita said "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". The comics journal interview is also really controversial, as Jack had as much of a bad memory as Stan, as he said he created Spider-man (which isn't true) and on another ocassion Jack said that Lee didn't know what mutations were, which isn't true, as Lee had already made sci fi stories with mutants kn it like "the mutants and me".

[@zzodysseuszz]

Still didn’t forget your dogshit mary sue video or your garbage defending of Jane foster Thor.

[@grantbaugh2773]

I like the idea of the marvel method, as it can let the two creators do what they do best. A writer can plan the overall story, but then the artist can lay that out visually, rather than relying on a writer to plan out specific panels, etc. However, that means the artist is doing more work so they should 100% get more pay and credit than when working from a fully set script. The fact that these artists had to push for those things is what makes the historical usage of the method sad.

[@mikecunningham4682]

100% this, the issue isn't the creation, it's the credit given. I can't remember who I heard say it (probably Chris honestly😅) but Stan gets all the credit because he's the guy who wrote the credits.

[@kanukki84]

@@mikecunningham4682 Stan lee has always given credits to artists, it's true that he may have given it a little too much to himself in certain comics.

[@RogerioPereiradaSilva77]

​@@kanukki84 I think that the problem is not so much that he didn't credit the artists for the wonderful work they produced - he always had been very gracious when talking about their collaboration, AFAIK - but rather that they were doing a lot more of writing than what we were told. In some cases, he obviously did no plotting at all! These artists deserved more credit that what they got and, probably, were owed some additional compensation that some only got after lengthy litigation, if at all.

[@KarazolaX]

@@mikecunningham4682 From my understanding, he got sole credit because Stan Lee was the full-time employee, and the artists were kept hired on as contractors. The company owned the work product, and it was beneficial for them to have a company man credited as the writer. Stan Lee was complicit in this, but ultimately it did lead to better structured story in comics. Because the alternative wouldn't have been giving the writers credit, it would have been Stan Lee / a dedicated writer rigidly plotting out the panels. Stan Lee probably could have been a bit more forward about it later in his life, but honestly I don't see that getting spun any other way besides "Stan Lee Admits He's A Fraud" by any media outlets.

[@Devilm4n-cw8tv]

There were times where Stan Lee wasn't even involved with plotting the actual story and would still credit himself as the writer despite only filling in for dialogue. People forget that comics is a visual medium and most of the ​artists are responsible for the visual storytelling which is more vital than what the characters are saying in many cases. Stan Lee has been in so many feuds with artists because he had a bad tendency of taking too much credit for their work and in some cases stealing their ideas and charactersh@@kanukki84

[@ganjjabarsmedium2347]

The Pitch Meeting opening sketch was freaking hilarious! Super-easy, Barely an Inconvenience! Also awesome collaboration! I never get tired of diving into comic history with you Chris, thank you 🤘

[@MarkJacksonParkES]

Great homage.

[@randy_stone]

"Hey, shut up."

[@stefansauvageonwhat-a-twis1369]

Wow wow wow wow

[@FilipPopovic-oj2fz]

​@@stefansauvageonwhat-a-twis1369Wow

[@ameteuraspirant]

Random Ryan George references are TIGHT!

[@roboatnick6178]

Oh whoops. Whoopsie!

[@myriad926]

That reference was barely an inconvenience.

[@BatFan1]

If Alan Moore adopted the Marvel Method, his synopsis would still be 20 pages long.

[@maxxjapan619]

And at least four of those would be descriptions of psychedelic sex scenes.

[@NaviRyan]

@@maxxjapan619also add a character that’s a send up of right wing extremists, who becomes the fan favourite, because he doesn’t give a shit about sex, or the philosophical machinations of the other characters.

[@katihonkasalo9410]

@@maxxjapan619 "Those are rookie numbers." - Chris Claremont, probably

[@danielmoore9209]

True. Unlike Stan Lee, Alan Moore was a legitimate writer. In the history of comics, there’s been few actual writers. Generally it’s paint by numbers. Introduce the good guys, then the bad guys, add a loose twist and the hero wins. Alan Moore’s study and love for writing was what made his comics different and as an actual writer, he was treated as how corporations always treat legitimate creators..

[@igodreamer7096]

indeed

[@andressigalat602]

I haven't seen in the video any artist really complaining about the "Marvel method", they were complaining about not being fairly credited and compensated for their work. I'm pretty sure most of them, being very creative and hard working people, would have totally loved the freedom it gave them if they had been credited as writers and paid acordingly.

[@ViktorKruger99]

well isnt that the big issue with stan anyway that people gives he more credit than the actual people doing the heavy lifting in the comic

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​@@ViktorKruger99 it's actually a controversial topic, as John Romita actually contradicted what Kirby said, as in an interview Romita said "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". The comics journal interview is also really controversial, as Jack had as much of a bad memory as Stan, as he said he created Spider-man (which isn't true) and on another ocassion Jack said that Lee didn't know what mutations were, which isn't true, as Lee had already made sci fi stories with mutants kn it like "the mutants and me". Kirby also said he was the one that came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this isn't true as the hulk at first only transformed at night and the firdt time he transformed out of anger was in a story drawn by Dick Ayers.

[@trevorbyrne4668]

Complaining about pay *is* complaining about the Marvel method, though. Getting artists to do extra work and not paying them (or even recognising their work), while giving undue credit to someone else (and retaining better pay for that person) is central to the method. It seems it was created with this outcome in mind - it wasn't some accident or a side issue. If anything, calling it the Marvel method and not the Stan scam or something, is a way of hiding the core abuse. I work as a writer (not of comics - short stories, a novel) and absolutely no one accepts that the pernicious business of writing for recognition (writing stories and not being paid - you get published, that's good enough according to the people who make the money) is acceptable. The entire thing is an abuse, a scam. If someone co-wrote a novel and one writer wasn't credited and/or paid it'd be a scandal. Co-writing happens occasionally, as with Peter Straub and Stephen King one time. But if there was some system (the King Colab method, or better, the King Sting) existed, in which Straub wasn't credited (or was under-credited and underpaid) for a series of books which he effectively wrote 90% of, while King was paid a fortune lived a life of wealthy excess and fame, then Straub's complaints wouldn't be seen in the odd way you're presenting those about the MM - just complaints about money and recognition. Those complaints would be a protest about the very existence of such a practice. The King Colab method would be dirt. PS. There's no evidence or insinuation King ever did this!

[@badfoody]

Stan Lee lived and died as an unrepentant credit thief

[@Peremptor]

​@@trevorbyrne4668spot on brother just another way to screw over the actual talent who made the content worth reading and buying.

[@jonothanthrace1530]

I can't believe you tricked Linkara like that.

[@ComicTropes]

It’s possible that we were both acting.

[@Slop_Dogg]

@@ComicTropesI refuse to believe this- treachery was afoot

[@maxxjapan619]

Especially when you remember, HE IS A MAN! *PUNCH!*

[@jameshamill4709]

Here's the way I see it. (Take it with a grain of salt.): Stan was a solid editor who suggested story ideas but at the end of the day an idea, an outline, or a treatment are not the same thing as a script. Comics is a really unique medium. So much of the writing really is done in the layout stages of figuring out the panel arrangement and the compositions within each panel and how those tell the story. Stan (at least in the super hero era) never really wrote a full script, nor did he draw layouts like Harvey Kurtzman. To compare it to manga, Stan is exactly like a manga editor suggesting ideas for the next chapter but leaving the mangaka (e.g.: Jack Kirby) to do the actual storytelling. If we were to compare this to film, I would argue that Stan should receive a "Story by..." credit whereas Steve Ditko, et al. should receive the much more labor intensive "Written by..." credit. (I hope this makes sense. I just got off the night shift.) Also I think it'd be really cool if we start thinking of these Marvel pencillers as something closer to mangaka because when I go back and read those old stories it feels like it's the artist driving the story. The stories really do get bogged down by the often unnecessary and frequently stilted dialogue and captions. Also the speed with which those men cranked out comics certainly is more reminiscent of manga pace.

[@RogerioPereiradaSilva77]

Agree with everything. Couldn't have said it better myself!

[@Shinmsl]

That's a great comparisson, you're quite correct

[@brandonmedina4471]

Totally agree about the dialogue. These comics are the foundation of all superhero stories today and I can’t read a lot of the written text.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​@@RogerioPereiradaSilva77 it's actually a controversial topic, as John Romita actually contradicted what Kirby said, as in an interview Romita said "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". The comics journal interview is also really controversial, as Jack had as much of a bad memory as Stan, as he said he created Spider-man (which isn't true) and on another ocassion Jack said that Lee didn't know what mutations were, which isn't true, as Lee had already made sci fi stories with mutants kn it like "the mutants and me". Kirby also said he was the one that came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this isn't true as the hulk at first only transformed at night and the firdt time he transformed out of anger was in a story drawn by Dick Ayers. John Romita also said about working with Lee that "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on" and in another interview he also said that "If Stan weren’t such a histrionic character, I probably would have fallen asleep right there, but he kept me awake because he was really jumping all over the office. He was using different voices, shouting, screaming, running down the hall - he really did all those crazy things".

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

it's actually a controversial topic, as John Romita actually contradicted what Kirby said, as in an interview Romita said "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". The comics journal interview is also really controversial, as Jack had as much of a bad memory as Stan, as he said he created Spider-man (which isn't true) and on another ocassion Jack said that Lee didn't know what mutations were, which isn't true, as Lee had already made sci fi stories with mutants kn it like "the mutants and me". Kirby also said he was the one that came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this isn't true as the hulk at first only transformed at night and the firdt time he transformed out of anger was in a story drawn by Dick Ayers. John Romita also said about working with Lee that "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on" and in another interview he also said that "If Stan weren’t such a histrionic character, I probably would have fallen asleep right there, but he kept me awake because he was really jumping all over the office. He was using different voices, shouting, screaming, running down the hall - he really did all those crazy things".

[@uesskaypee8]

Slowly but surely youtubers are becoming historians. We need more youtubers like you.

[@99baji99]

Enjoying Comic Tropes at 5am is super easy, barely an inconvenience.

[@chacondetunaerma]

Is this a multiverse of pitch meetings? 😂

[@philipburnette7315]

Oh really?

[@tomkerruish2982]

@99baji99 Wow, wow, wow... wow.

[@michaelwilford3216]

@@chacondetunaerma Multiverses are tight!

[@nova3752]

​@@tomkerruish2982calm down you soft little manchild you

[@kylecarter1599]

The intro is amazing!

[@JosephTavano]

Gotta love Ryan George! Nice homage Chris.

[@cdadamly]

Was the intro actual archival footage of Stan?

[@CH-wh7ee]

One aspect about the "Marvel Method" I think that often gets overlooked is that when it was created the people involved had all been working in comics and with each other for decades. There was a well developed sense of both experience and familiarity with each other. So sitting down and detailing panel by panel was considered unnecessary. Also keep in mind that Stan Lee was both writing and editing multiple books at the time. So he saw the "Marvel Method" as a great time saver and shortcut. Now don't get me wrong - a lot of the artists definitely deserved a partial writer's credit for their input. And Stan Lee's ego was always a problem. But you also have to look at the context at what it was like at the time.

[@danielg.w5733]

In an ideal world, everyone involved would have gotten a co-writing/plotter credit and royalties.

[@CH-wh7ee]

@@danielg.w5733 Another thing to keep in mind is at the time comic books were just some rag that a 10 year old would buy with a dime from his local drug store and then toss in the garbage once he was done reading it. They were considered trash. That decades later the Marvel Super Heroes would be the foundation of a multi-billion world wide entertainment empire was inconceivable.

[@cdfreester]

Good point

[@MarklovesAngels]

Sorry it wasn’t a product of the time. Comic books before 1961, during 1961 to 1969 and into the future was done with full scripts especially at DC comics. Stan was only going into the office two days a week. He was not busy, the so-called marvel method was just the way of him tossing work he wasn’t capable of doing onto the artists plates. The marvel method was created to enable him to steal money from them.

[@tomatoperfecto]

@@CH-wh7ee more like he saw his paycheck, and came up with a scheme to double dip. And who's going to stop him? His wife's Uncle Martin? Anybody even looks wise to that, you bounce em right out of there.

[@johnnygoodman2003]

Lol. It's a tribute to Ryan George. This is so good.

[@sharpetoo]

Super easy. Barely an inconvenience.

[@h0wnr681]

wow wow wow.......................... wow

[@Ultr4l0f]

Ryan George is TIGHT!

[@LARKXHIN]

Why did the theatre skit make me laugh so hard , especially as someone who has watched Linkara for like 12 years.

[@bes03c]

That Stan Lee impression is way better than it should be. It is almost more Stan Lee than Stan Lee.

[@Rob-z7k]

I thought that was Stan Lee!

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

it's actually a controversial topic, as John Romita actually contradicted what Kirby said, as in an interview Romita said "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". The comics journal interview is also really controversial, as Jack had as much of a bad memory as Stan, as he said he created Spider-man (which isn't true) and on another ocassion Jack said that Lee didn't know what mutations were, which isn't true, as Lee had already made sci fi stories with mutants kn it like "the mutants and me". Kirby also said he was the one that came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this isn't true as the hulk at first only transformed at night and the firdt time he transformed out of anger was in a story drawn by Dick Ayers. John Romita also said about working with Lee that "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on" and in another interview he also said that "If Stan weren’t such a histrionic character, I probably would have fallen asleep right there, but he kept me awake because he was really jumping all over the office. He was using different voices, shouting, screaming, running down the hall - he really did all those crazy things".

[@cha5]

@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5emOn the other hand artists such as Steve Ditko and Wally Wood both had issues with the Marvel Method, (Wood himself was irate with Stan when it came to the writing situation on Daredevil,) not to mention Martin Goodman’s Hollywood Accounting when it came to blatantly using Kirby and Ditko’s art in animation and marketing which they didn’t get a penny from.

[@TighelanderII]

@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em The German series, "Perry Rhodan" had a team of mutants a few years before Marvel.

[@AntiDecepticonCampaign]

Needs a dash of Gilbert godfried for a bit more umph, now if anybody is gonna play Stan Lee in a movie it should be him.

[@davidmelon9409]

The Marvel Method is a blessing and a curse; It allows for a great amount of output in a short span of time; but on the other hand, It is much more vulnerable than other production methods to miscommunication. And, well, /all/ collaboration is dependent on communication, moreso than independence.

[@Frustratedartist2]

A blessing: it allows Stan Lee to get rich and famous A curse: it steals the credit from true artists that do the work ah, what a delicate balance

[@davidmelon9409]

Not getting into the specifics of credit and character ownership (although this was certainly part of the reason why Image Comics was created in the first place), but there are instances of artists making panels and writers putting in words that contradict the original intent. As an example, there's this Claremont/Byrne X-Men comic where Colossus is doing some gardening and uproots a tree stump, neck veins bulging, sweating, it's clearly a lot of effort for him. But the the thought balloon goes "This is effortless for me!"

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

@@Frustratedartist2 it's actually a controversial topic, as John Romita actually contradicted what Kirby said, as in an interview Romita said "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". The comics journal interview is also really controversial, as Jack had as much of a bad memory as Stan, as he said he created Spider-man (which isn't true) and on another ocassion Jack said that Lee didn't know what mutations were, which isn't true, as Lee had already made sci fi stories with mutants kn it like "the mutants and me". Kirby also said he was the one that came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this isn't true as the hulk at first only transformed at night and the firdt time he transformed out of anger was in a story drawn by Dick Ayers. John Romita also said about working with Lee that "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on" and in another interview he also said that "If Stan weren’t such a histrionic character, I probably would have fallen asleep right there, but he kept me awake because he was really jumping all over the office. He was using different voices, shouting, screaming, running down the hall - he really did all those crazy things".

[@meatbyproducts]

Ditko and Kirby weren't annoyed by the "Marvel Method " they were sick of Lee stealing credit for their work. At least, that is what they said in the 90s when I was able to talk to them.

[@mightyraccoon7155]

To be able to meet two of the most prolific artists of the 20th century… I envy you

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

@@meatbyproducts it's actually a controversial topic, as John Romita actually contradicted what Kirby said, as in an interview Romita said "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". The comics journal interview is also really controversial, as Jack had as much of a bad memory as Stan, as he said he created Spider-man (which isn't true) and on another ocassion Jack said that Lee didn't know what mutations were, which isn't true, as Lee had already made sci fi stories with mutants kn it like "the mutants and me". Kirby also said he was the one that came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this isn't true as the hulk at first only transformed at night and the firdt time he transformed out of anger was in a story drawn by Dick Ayers. John Romita also said about working with Lee that "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on" and in another interview he also said that "If Stan weren’t such a histrionic character, I probably would have fallen asleep right there, but he kept me awake because he was really jumping all over the office. He was using different voices, shouting, screaming, running down the hall - he really did all those crazy things".

[@meatbyproducts]

@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em there are way to many artists that have the same stories about Lee for it to not be true. You can also work with someone and go out for drinks as a company and still have issues with one of the people you're out with.

[@TheMaskedBaptist]

Thank you, Chris. Much of this came up in an active, Jack Kirby forum I am very active in. The quotes you gave saved us a lot of time and money collecting all the magazines the interviews came from. As far as collaborations, I think both methods are fine. If the artist has a clear and detailed vision, let the talented artist do more of the writing. And vice-versa.

[@JamesMcCormickIV]

I'm calling it "The Ryan George Method."

[@rob-brown]

when I worked at Marvel in the 90s they would supply me plots... basically it had a paragraph explain what was happening in 5 pages. I enjoyed very much working like that. It gave me a ton of freedom... i think i prefer working from plots more than a full script.

[@pjgrantland3058]

I picture this process being like the one Apatow used in his movies. Write a script and let the improv fill in the gaps and make alterations as they occur.

[@nohbuddy1]

Is that why the Clone Saga ended up like that? 😂

[@christinachampion8678]

Excellent background information about the Marvel Method. Wow! Loved it. Thank Chris.

[@Hayamaneko]

Pranking Linkara is something I wouldn't have expected on this channel. Good job!

[@ComicTropes]

We were acting. I wouldn’t be that mean.

[@ivane5110]

Lol, best intro homage ever! Love it it when two beloved channels intersect

[@sharkysharkerson]

This reminds me how martial arts movies were filmed in the 70s. The films were silent and the dialogue was dubbed in later.

[@joecab1]

The beginning killed me 😂 And thanks for doing this. Unfortunately it often takes someone's passing for the fairy tale to fade away and the truth to get exposure.

[@goldenmindcavity]

this was a masterclass in video essays, loved every second, so much info about marvel and the industry

[@liamab182]

It's depressing how much comic creators gave to the world and how little they recieved back, in terms of both credit and pay. I say that in past tense but it's 100% still an ongoing issue that sadly I do not see being resolved anytime soon.

[@kerry-j4m]

Yeah,back in the old days of creating comics I read about an artist being afraid to ask for a page rate increase,because he thought he may get fired. Wow,I've never been afraid to go ask for a raise,a day off,vacation time,etc,etc,.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

it's actually a controversial topic, as John Romita actually contradicted what Kirby said, as in an interview Romita said "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". The comics journal interview is also really controversial, as Jack had as much of a bad memory as Stan, as he said he created Spider-man (which isn't true) and on another ocassion Jack said that Lee didn't know what mutations were, which isn't true, as Lee had already made sci fi stories with mutants kn it like "the mutants and me". Kirby also said he was the one that came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this isn't true as the hulk at first only transformed at night and the firdt time he transformed out of anger was in a story drawn by Dick Ayers. John Romita also said about working with Lee that "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on" and in another interview he also said that "If Stan weren’t such a histrionic character, I probably would have fallen asleep right there, but he kept me awake because he was really jumping all over the office. He was using different voices, shouting, screaming, running down the hall - he really did all those crazy things". Besides, Lee WAS passionate about comics, as in an interview, Bill Griffith said "I had a breakfast with him once, in San Diego, four or five years ago, and I was really surprised that he was some sort of a fan of my stuff. I mean, he said he liked it and then he actually described it so that I knew he wasn’t just bullshitting me. So, I was really surprised at that, I remember, because I always associated him with strictly with Marvel, and [the] superhero genre, and I never met him before, so I didn’t know if he had a wider taste in comics. But I remember I was pleasantly surprised that not only did he read my stuff, but he even asked me to do him a drawing, and he acted like a fan, and I was completely taken aback by that…" and later he says "He was very philosophical, just funny about it. I said something, I couldn’t resist giving him a kind of veiled opinion of superheroes, or at least analyzing them a little bit: what it was all about. As opposed to saying “I love Spider-Man,” saying, “Gee, what’s Spider-Man all about? Why does he exist? What’s the appeal?” And I remember him talking about myths and legends, and retelling myths. He was a smart guy; I enjoyed talking to him. He was very reflective and philosophical about what he did, which I found to be refreshing, because a lot of people involved in that genre are, you know, they’re not particularly bright, in my snotty opinion".

[@wandersonoliveira263]

The problem with Marvel Method is the crediting. Yes, freedom to the creator is always better, as long as he is not stolen of his credit. And when he is actually credited, would be at least professional to not joke about the fact he is doing so, as if the product is now lesser, when he actually did most of the job all along.

[@thebeezkneez7559]

I don't think there's any problem with the method, it led to genius artists adapting their vision as closely as possible, but I think it's pretty garbage to say you wrote the story when it was only half your effort. Even if it said written by Stan Lee and _ not just penning them as the author I think that's fair because without Stan there wouldn't be marvel, but we all know who Stan is and only real fans know who people like Steve ditko are.

[@CrimsonMoonM]

Whenever this topic comes up, I always recall the story where Ditko drew Spidey angrily shaking his fist at a group of protesters, which Lee then turned around by writing the panel as if Spidey were vigorously voicing his support of the movement. Supposedly, this were one of many incidents that caused the dam to burst between them.

[@TylerStrangelove]

That's an urban legend. If you read the original Ditko scene, Peter is critical of the protesters; but, what's more, there are scenes in the Romita run where Peter is critical of what protesters are doing.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​@@TylerStrangelove wrong. You clearly didn't read said Romita story. That story clearly emoathizes with the protesters, but criticizes their methods like rioting. Later on that same storyline, Robbie talks to his son and tells him that although it's ok to protest and fight for a better world, that cannot be achieved with those radical methods. At the same time the story criticizes the establishment, as Jonah is shown to be dogmagic and fanatic in the way he criticez the students and later the principal admits nothing would bad would have happened if he had tried to be more cooperative.

[@jnnx]

⁠​⁠@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5emI really want to read the story where Jonah is shown to be dogmagic. WOOF! 🐶

[@JohnSmith-yd5wq]

Ditko should be thanking Stan Lee every day. No one would know of him if not for Spider Man. There is no Mr. A movie.

[@driveasandwich6734]

​@@JohnSmith-yd5wq He also created The Question, Blue Beetle.

[@56postoffice]

This episode looks set to be a future classic. *"Hey, shut up!"* 😅😅 That killed me! Big UK fan of your channel.

[@diegorodriguez2559]

This is the best comicbook related channel

[@mokwella]

Ok, so I have had a grand total of ONE comic book story published. But what worked for me and the artist I was working with was me writing a full script with a ton of details, and then do a plotting FaceTime where we would give each other notes, and then letting the artist go to town and I consider it out of my hands at that point. Sort of like a screenplay - once the script goes to the director there's really no meaningful input from the screenwriter. I think defining the roles is much better, as a creative process and also to keep the pay straight.

[@brandonmedina4471]

Actually, a lot of screenwriters are on the sets of their movies lobbying for as little deviation as possible.

[@randy_stone]

Great episode Chris! Some artists are definitely better suited to working off a plot than others. I wonder if those artists would have enjoyed it more if they were credited/compensated for it.

[@damdampapa]

The first 59 seconds is the best minute I've had this week. Thank you.

[@Pensadordosceus]

The artists who liked the marvel method praised for the freedom it gave them to draw at their storytelling pace. Not because they were happy Stan was getting the full money as a writer.

[@Akkbar21]

🥱

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

it's actually a controversial topic, as John Romita actually contradicted what Kirby said, as in an interview Romita said "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". The comics journal interview is also really controversial, as Jack had as much of a bad memory as Stan, as he said he created Spider-man (which isn't true) and on another ocassion Jack said that Lee didn't know what mutations were, which isn't true, as Lee had already made sci fi stories with mutants kn it like "the mutants and me". Kirby also said he was the one that came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this isn't true as the hulk at first only transformed at night and the firdt time he transformed out of anger was in a story drawn by Dick Ayers. John Romita also said about working with Lee that "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on" and in another interview he also said that "If Stan weren’t such a histrionic character, I probably would have fallen asleep right there, but he kept me awake because he was really jumping all over the office. He was using different voices, shouting, screaming, running down the hall - he really did all those crazy things".

[@tomatoperfecto]

This apologist reads like AI. Go make a 22 page comic, with story beats and dialogue suggestions in the notes. Then hand it over to nepotism hire twit editor, so he can fill it in "like a crossword puzzle". Thats not comic creation that's doing his job as an editor. Half of stanleys words don't even go panel to panel. Its like he wrote them hours or days apart sometimes.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

@@tomatoperfecto your response is completely emotional and lacks logical or rational arguments.

[@tomatoperfecto]

​@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5emnot at all emotional. I made valid points or shared my opinion. If you're from outside the USA, the international reprints you read are the most saccharine nonsense. Is that why you feel so strongly about a credit thief, brainwashing? What's your favorite Stan dialogue?

[@frofrozzty]

This may be one of the most important comics-related videos on the platform. A concise dive into what it was like working with Stan; a man we all love and appreciate, but it's important to know how his contemporaries viewed how he conducted business.

[@clippedwings0]

Stan Lee helped give us so many great characters and stories, I can't downplay his significance... ... but his ego definitely got in the way of his relationships with artists. If he gave an artist a general outline and let them tell the story as they saw fit, that artist deserved a writing credit, and they co-created those characters. 'Nuff said.

[@BasileosAlexios]

I think the conclusion of this essay was that he was doing this for the money. At the moment of printing you're getting the big fat paycheck but the royalties from reprints only come in much later and Marvel used to pay people based on the credits on the book. The implication is that Stan Lee scammed all those artists, he came up with a in-house work process that benefitted him financially the most at the expense of the artists over whom he had the power to hire and fire.

[@kellygoodine9944]

@@BasileosAlexios Yep... Lee may have been generous with the compliments, but with guys like Lee.... a salesmen through and through....talk is cheap. Its the paycheck that counts. He got these guys to do half his work for free while he got a full check. That is what it boils down to. Notice how if any of these guys asked for credit, their time on the book soon ended.

[@clippedwings0]

@@BasileosAlexios I agree that it could have been that, but there was also a great interview with Stan where they asked him point-blank if Steve Ditko co-created Spider-Man, and even though he was complimentary to Ditko, Lee just could not bring himself to say that Ditko co-created the character (and I think this was after he no longer worked for Marvel). So pride seemed to be part of it, as well.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​@@BasileosAlexios it's actually a controversial topic, as John Romita actually contradicted what Kirby said, as in an interview Romita said "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". The comics journal interview is also really controversial, as Jack had as much of a bad memory as Stan, as he said he created Spider-man (which isn't true) and on another ocassion Jack said that Lee didn't know what mutations were, which isn't true, as Lee had already made sci fi stories with mutants kn it like "the mutants and me". Kirby also said he was the one that came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this isn't true as the hulk at first only transformed at night and the firdt time he transformed out of anger was in a story drawn by Dick Ayers. John Romita also said about working with Lee that "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on" and in another interview he also said that "If Stan weren’t such a histrionic character, I probably would have fallen asleep right there, but he kept me awake because he was really jumping all over the office. He was using different voices, shouting, screaming, running down the hall - he really did all those crazy things". Besides, Lee WAS passionate about comics, as in an interview, Bill Griffith said "I had a breakfast with him once, in San Diego, four or five years ago, and I was really surprised that he was some sort of a fan of my stuff. I mean, he said he liked it and then he actually described it so that I knew he wasn’t just bullshitting me. So, I was really surprised at that, I remember, because I always associated him with strictly with Marvel, and [the] superhero genre, and I never met him before, so I didn’t know if he had a wider taste in comics. But I remember I was pleasantly surprised that not only did he read my stuff, but he even asked me to do him a drawing, and he acted like a fan, and I was completely taken aback by that…" and later he says "He was very philosophical, just funny about it. I said something, I couldn’t resist giving him a kind of veiled opinion of superheroes, or at least analyzing them a little bit: what it was all about. As opposed to saying “I love Spider-Man,” saying, “Gee, what’s Spider-Man all about? Why does he exist? What’s the appeal?” And I remember him talking about myths and legends, and retelling myths. He was a smart guy; I enjoyed talking to him. He was very reflective and philosophical about what he did, which I found to be refreshing, because a lot of people involved in that genre are, you know, they’re not particularly bright, in my snotty opinion".

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​@@kellygoodine9944 it's actually a controversial topic, as John Romita actually contradicted what Kirby said, as in an interview Romita said "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". The comics journal interview is also really controversial, as Jack had as much of a bad memory as Stan, as he said he created Spider-man (which isn't true) and on another ocassion Jack said that Lee didn't know what mutations were, which isn't true, as Lee had already made sci fi stories with mutants kn it like "the mutants and me". Kirby also said he was the one that came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this isn't true as the hulk at first only transformed at night and the firdt time he transformed out of anger was in a story drawn by Dick Ayers. John Romita also said about working with Lee that "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on" and in another interview he also said that "If Stan weren’t such a histrionic character, I probably would have fallen asleep right there, but he kept me awake because he was really jumping all over the office. He was using different voices, shouting, screaming, running down the hall - he really did all those crazy things". Besides, Lee WAS passionate about comics, as in an interview, Bill Griffith said "I had a breakfast with him once, in San Diego, four or five years ago, and I was really surprised that he was some sort of a fan of my stuff. I mean, he said he liked it and then he actually described it so that I knew he wasn’t just bullshitting me. So, I was really surprised at that, I remember, because I always associated him with strictly with Marvel, and [the] superhero genre, and I never met him before, so I didn’t know if he had a wider taste in comics. But I remember I was pleasantly surprised that not only did he read my stuff, but he even asked me to do him a drawing, and he acted like a fan, and I was completely taken aback by that…" and later he says "He was very philosophical, just funny about it. I said something, I couldn’t resist giving him a kind of veiled opinion of superheroes, or at least analyzing them a little bit: what it was all about. As opposed to saying “I love Spider-Man,” saying, “Gee, what’s Spider-Man all about? Why does he exist? What’s the appeal?” And I remember him talking about myths and legends, and retelling myths. He was a smart guy; I enjoyed talking to him. He was very reflective and philosophical about what he did, which I found to be refreshing, because a lot of people involved in that genre are, you know, they’re not particularly bright, in my snotty opinion".

[@auradjinns]

The artists do need some freedom to interpret what a writer is providing, but a writer has to also make a firm commitment to what the story is about.

[@CavemanBatman]

That intro absolutely slapped 💜🤣

[@jillchristensen5093]

It was tight!

[@Kevin_Street]

Thank you for this wonderful video! The depth of your research is really impressive. It's more than just someone giving their opinion on a topic (like so many videos on KZbin), you've done a lot of research, looked into the available sources and drawn a very reasonable conclusion. The artists were split about 50/50 on the Marvel Method, with the older artists who needed the steady work generally liking or tolerating it (up to a point), and the younger artists who had no families to support often tiring of it and quitting Marvel after a while. That makes sense. It's somewhat ironic the "Marvel Method" Stan invented to make his work easier ultimately helped many artists develop experience and self-confidence as all-round storytellers, so they began to think of themselves as more than just artists. Somebody like Kirby was already there thanks to his decades of experience before he even worked for Marvel, but for other artists like Dick Ayers you can see in that comic strip how the added responsibility made him realize he could decide what he wanted to draw, he didn't have to always follow someone else's script. In an era where there was no such thing as self publishing, the Marvel Method may have helped artists learn how to write and have the confidence to tell their own stories. But with this increased confidence came the realization that Marvel was not paying them fairly for the work they'd been doing.

[@HenryNooney]

Lmao I screamed at the Linkara cameo.

[@autastic1]

It's him. The lightbringer.

[@CrimsonMoonM]

@@autastic1 That does technically make him an artist, even if it's a reason he's not proud of.

[@autastic1]

@@CrimsonMoonM I am actually incredibly thankful for Linkara making that series because I might have tried to do it on my own and met the same fate. There's only one person who's ever actually made a compelling webcomic while not having good art skills, and it's the guy who made One Punch Man.

[@mosquitopyjamas9048]

It'll be out when its out. And we like that. Good work ethic

[@teruienages962]

@@autastic1 Stop bringing that up. It's not fair to him, he's disavowed it completely and I've lost track of how many times he's had to apologize for it for years. How much blood is enough for you people?

[@mattherbert7841]

Thanks for this, Chris. I just watched it on a rainy grey Sunday morning here in Australia. Loved the in-depth coverage of such a specific top - that's exactly why I love YT so much. And your production of the subject was - as usual - so good. Thank you! Keep it up - love your work.

[@DeeganJango]

One of your best, most creative episodes yet!

[@jackramsay1012]

The production value on this is fantastic, great work Chris!

[@johnnydropkicks]

Chris, I mean this in all honesty; you are always consistently improving your videos. Every one is better than the last. Thank you. 🙌 ⬇️

[@facuc.1858]

fantastic work I love how you let the facts speak for themselves. One of your best videos.

[@adrianleverkuhn3281]

This is one of the best Comic Tropes I've seen. Entertaining and very informative. Excellent work.

[@32OrtonEdge32dh]

One of my favorite episodes yet, love the research that went in and the different perspectives you were able to find, not to mention the editing and all the re-enactments. Can't beat funny and informative!

[@cecilDisharoon]

@comictropes I had never seen or heard of that castle of Frankenstein fanzine interview! How did you even find it? Wow wow wow....wow. I enjoyed your skits.

[@ComicTropes]

I forget when I exactly came across that one. But this was a research-heavy episode.

[@cecilDisharoon]

@@ComicTropes They often are! The one on Fillipino comic artists is a good example of why patronage helps, and I'm glad you're maintaining an avid following.

[@cecilDisharoon]

I like watching early episodes, but it really does demonstrate an evolution in approach, a reward that comes with e.g. six years of channel experience.

[@trevorashfield7389]

Well. Wow! I was looking forward to this video but you surpassed all my expectations! A great synopsis of the artists' views! I hope you can explore this topic further in the future; how did the Marvel Method evolve after Stan left scripting to others? - How did Roy Thomas, or Steve Englehart, or others, use the Method? . . . Neal Adams wrote about his excitement around the possiblities in it. I wonder if most of the first chapters of the Kree/Skrull War saga in The Avengers was largely his work based on plots by Thomas? Well, I don't know. But it would be great to see an exploration of how other Marvel writers used or did not use the Marvel Method! Anyway, thank you very much for this thoughtful and well-organized presentation. I will watch for more.

[@TheKvakMan]

Its funny how much stan lee , with all his genius gets more credit than Jack Kirby for some of their creations. But it is very obvious that Stan really adored Kirby. Great video as always Chis!

[@MarklovesAngels]

I'd need some attribution that Lee was a genius. As early as 1961, fanzines of the day knew that the Fantastic Four was all Kirby. For TWENTY previous years, Lee worked with his cousin-in-law's publishing company and hadn't gotten ONE concept off the ground on his own. NONE. He was good at stealing credit for all the characters though, and by 1965, Cracked Magazine was printing satires about him being a phony. "The Origins of Marvel Comics" was a lie from beginning to end and only written to lock down copyrights before the company's sale. Nowadays, the myth is perpetuated by a mega-corp with mouse ears intent on keeping those copyrights intact.

[@TheKvakMan]

@@MarklovesAngels Well, I guess he was a genius in making people think that he was some creative mastermind.

[@TheKvakMan]

If nothing else

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​@@TheKvakMan it's actually a controversial topic, as John Romita actually contradicted what Kirby said, as in an interview Romita said "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". The comics journal interview is also really controversial, as Jack had as much of a bad memory as Stan, as he said he created Spider-man (which isn't true) and on another ocassion Jack said that Lee didn't know what mutations were, which isn't true, as Lee had already made sci fi stories with mutants kn it like "the mutants and me". Kirby also said he was the one that came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this isn't true as the hulk at first only transformed at night and the firdt time he transformed out of anger was in a story drawn by Dick Ayers. John Romita also said about working with Lee that "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on" and in another interview he also said that "If Stan weren’t such a histrionic character, I probably would have fallen asleep right there, but he kept me awake because he was really jumping all over the office. He was using different voices, shouting, screaming, running down the hall - he really did all those crazy things".

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​@@MarklovesAngels it's actually a controversial topic, as John Romita actually contradicted what Kirby said, as in an interview Romita said "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". The comics journal interview is also really controversial, as Jack had as much of a bad memory as Stan, as he said he created Spider-man (which isn't true) and on another ocassion Jack said that Lee didn't know what mutations were, which isn't true, as Lee had already made sci fi stories with mutants kn it like "the mutants and me". Kirby also said he was the one that came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this isn't true as the hulk at first only transformed at night and the firdt time he transformed out of anger was in a story drawn by Dick Ayers. John Romita also said about working with Lee that "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on" and in another interview he also said that "If Stan weren’t such a histrionic character, I probably would have fallen asleep right there, but he kept me awake because he was really jumping all over the office. He was using different voices, shouting, screaming, running down the hall - he really did all those crazy things".

[@LotoTheHero]

I just found this channel and I am quite enjoying it. Nice to learn a lot about these artists and the behind the scenes stuff. It's also nice to discover artists that I may have only know of in passing as well. Keep up the great work! 👍

[@walterhoward5512]

A lot of focus was put on Stan Lee, but other writers like Chris Claremont have also used the Marvel method to create comics. As divisive as it is among some fans, I think Marvel method has a lot of strengths that make it superior to a full script. I wish it would make a come back.

[@MarklovesAngels]

Glad it doesn't. Even as a young kid, I couldn't understand why half the time the expression didn't match the dialogue or emotion in the story. Big fails. It was like filming a movie and then adding the dialogue afterwards.

[@walterhoward5512]

@MarklovesAngels Things like dialogue not matching art can be a problem, but that really only happens when the artist and writer aren't on the same page. It is more of a teamwork problem than a fundamental flaw of the Marvel method. Comics are a visual medium, and by giving the artist significant power over how the story is told, you're able to fully utilize the artists skillset to craft a visually compelling story. It also keeps the artist more interested and allows them to become more invested in the job. It also benefits writers by not placing so much of the creative burden on them. I think a large part of why Chris Claremont was able to write X-Men for so long was due to Marvel method and was able to tap into the creativity of the different artists he worked with. This kept the X-Men fresh, while allowing him to maintain a singular, long-term vision. There are a lot of benefits.

[@barriolimbas]

​@@MarklovesAngelsyeah DKR, Watchmen, Sandman etc. type of stories just couldn't be done with the Marvel Method. One of the reasons why the better stories where at DC, though Marvel's characters were more popular.

[@MarklovesAngels]

@@walterhoward5512 John Byrne once changed the opening scene from a muddled Claremont suggestion to one with action and individual character depth. So, yeah, it works. Except Claremont took credit for a mumbled misfire that Byrne fixed. The credits have been incorrect since 1958. When I see “written by” the assumption is the writer came up with the plot and character motivations too.

[@MarklovesAngels]

@@barriolimbas yep. That’s why those books are worth studying again and again and most of the Fantastic Four stories with that overblown dialogue makes your ears bleed.

[@brittanyarmstrong2352]

I really enjoyed watching this. You did an awesome job in piecing together all the information from the various artists' interviews. It was cool to see a different side to Stan Lee. He was an amazing editor/creator, obviously, but I really liked also hearing about all the contributions of his colleagues, who don't get mentioned as often as he does. Yes, I'm quite a believer myself in compensating people fairly for the work that they do, and all too often companies get away with underpaying staff by hiring them under one job title, while wanting them to take on loads of extra duties etc. Not giving artists writing credits is absolutely unacceptable, and I think its really good to hear about the "office politics" behind the scenes at Marvel, it gave me a fascinating insight into some of my favourite comics! Thanks so much for sharing this awesome video.

[@bxsolx5086]

The synthesizer tune at the credits of every episode of Comic Tropes just triggers the happiest, most content feeling in me.

[@timothylewis2527]

This was an absolutely amazing episode. Loved it.

[@Atalanta1313]

Jim Shooter, as writer, would often include rough scetches of the pages to help the penciler.

[@victorcabanelas]

Somewhere in the middle is the ideal for me. You get the info of what happens in 2-3 pages and can add ideas or whatever, but the pacing is mostly up to you. As far as notes go, some writers love them, some discard them completely, hahaha! Great as always! Keep up the great work!

[@betagemslostmedia607]

I just scripted a Monkees comic bio that ended up being created "Marvel Style" when the artist - who was originally also set to write the comic - passed away, leaving behind 30 nearly finished but completely unlettered art pages, and no script. I had to piece together the story he was trying to tell, which wasn't that hard since most of the Monkees moments he drew are pretty iconic and well documented. The whole time I worked on the script, I thought about how weird it must be to ALWAYS script from finished artwork. It takes a weird mindset --

[@CoolCommenter-YesIndeed]

Absolutely great episode, thanks for battling through. We're all with you.

[@neiljackson3133]

I think it has been pretty clear how things went down in Marvel in the 60s. Don't forget that Kirby and Ditko could not write dialogue to save their lives and Stan's ability in that was one of the things that added to Marvel's cool image. Good episode, but please no more impressions.

[@psychepus-1715]

Chris thank you for making more videos 🔥 awesome job once again

[@21smac30]

Excellent video, just awesome. Who knew? You can draw like a god, but nobody can defeat "business BS."

[@MarsHottentot]

Totally worth the wait! Thank you for the great and informative episode! I think whether or not the Marvel Method™ works is probably diwn to the team utilizing it. Personally, as a writer, if I had a dymamic artist who can just fly, I'd probably still make a full script, but leave plenty of room for the artist to go wild when it's called for. So maybe a hybrid? But, again, it teally depends on who it is and how they best work

[@kuldas9299]

A buddy and I tried Marvel method (kind of). He wrote a plot. I illustrated it. He wrote a script over. Then I'd go back and re-write the script. Then that would sometimes springboard more ideas from him. I enjoyed the process. But then he always gave me the last say.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

it's actually a controversial topic, as John Romita actually contradicted what Kirby said, as in an interview Romita said "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". The comics journal interview is also really controversial, as Jack had as much of a bad memory as Stan, as he said he created Spider-man (which isn't true) and on another ocassion Jack said that Lee didn't know what mutations were, which isn't true, as Lee had already made sci fi stories with mutants kn it like "the mutants and me". Kirby also said he was the one that came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this isn't true as the hulk at first only transformed at night and the firdt time he transformed out of anger was in a story drawn by Dick Ayers. John Romita also said about working with Lee that "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on" and in another interview he also said that "If Stan weren’t such a histrionic character, I probably would have fallen asleep right there, but he kept me awake because he was really jumping all over the office. He was using different voices, shouting, screaming, running down the hall - he really did all those crazy things".

[@kuldas9299]

@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em Great story! I believe it but I also believe what Stan himself said, that many times with Jack he wouldn't have to tell him anything before he produced a comic. If you read New Gods and compare it to FF you can tell what Stan brought. Mostly hip lingo and down to earth humanitarianism. I ran away from school once when I was 7 and my mom asked me why. I said, "Teacher told me to go to the office I didn't want to so I cut out." I got "cut out" directly from a FF comic. Nobody in school said that. I think when Jack did go solo on FF stories he was writing to please or meet the expectations of Stan though.

[@kyleolson8977]

This is a great quality video. There's so much work you put in here, from the research to the different skits.

[@knightmarepilot4832]

I don't respect Stan Lee at all now. Not because of the Marvel method, but because he took credit away from people like Kirby and Ditko for doing more than simply illustrating and he practically took credit for the writing himself, which is objectively false.

[@Syfcobra8549]

I been saying that for decades! He only give them some credit in his last years when they all died , but when they need him the most he ignored them and took most of the credit I hate that people have this misconception that" Stan Lee created everyone with the help of some artists" Lol no! Stan Lee just came up with basic ideas and it was up to Kirby or Ditko to do the magic, they came up with the iconic costumes, apperances, settings etc. For example Jack Kirby love for Mexican cultures like the Olmecs and Aztecs is very present in characters like Sentinel, Galactus and the Forth World characters

[@happytoaster1]

It feels like the lesson here is a manager shouldn't have the ability to give himself "freelance" work. The temptation to have someone below them actually do the work will be there.

[@insupportofjunhado]

Stan Lee deserves all the credit for Marvel's success, as a salesman. The company would not have survived without him finding and educating a market for the artists' work. But he should have been honest and just admitted he was largely a dialog writer, that Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko basically created Marvel as we know it after the comics code handicapped their romance, war and monster stories.

[@RabbiSteve1]

@@insupportofjunhadopretty much this - what you said. He was a master pitchman, but when it came to being the creative talent behind the storytelling, he was more like the conman.

[@plaidchuck]

Kirby was indeed the complete package for his era. Ditko is an example of where hardcore ideology gets you, that is a footnote under someone else.

[@Shinmsl]

I sincerly thought I clicked in the wrong channel for a good second or two

[@basedcommodore]

I'm so glad there's someone like you to break down the history of Marvel Comics.When I come to your channel I can almost smell that Is aroma of comic book inc and pulp from the comic book shop

[@Markus465]

Yeah, Stan Lee was Marvel's version of Bob Kane. I think it's public enough that many comic fans KNOW they have Kirby, Ditko, Wood, etc. to thank for their favorite comic characters and stories.

[@mightyraccoon7155]

I would probably put Kane at an even worse tier, nobody can really obtain how big of a POS he was considering he never credited his artists & never drew but pretended he did. But They were friends, birds of a feather I suppose.

[@garyfoster65]

Great video. Loved it. Your choice of topics is second to none. Thank you

[@solidghus4799]

"Logos are tight!"

[@richardbruning]

This is one of your best episodes, Chris! Great work.

[@d36williams]

i dont know if i get a badge but its fun to be early. Everything about the Marvel Method would be fine except Stan Lee wouldn't share credit, or give credit where due. The authenticity of his claims as writer don't stand up to current standards. Jack Kirby long felt like he was being taken advantage of in the comics industry (from what i recall) and was glad to get into animation later

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

it's actually a controversial topic, as John Romita actually contradicted what Kirby said, as in an interview Romita said "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". The comics journal interview is also really controversial, as Jack had as much of a bad memory as Stan, as he said he created Spider-man (which isn't true) and on another ocassion Jack said that Lee didn't know what mutations were, which isn't true, as Lee had already made sci fi stories with mutants kn it like "the mutants and me". Kirby also said he was the one that came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this isn't true as the hulk at first only transformed at night and the firdt time he transformed out of anger was in a story drawn by Dick Ayers. John Romita also said about working with Lee that "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on" and in another interview he also said that "If Stan weren’t such a histrionic character, I probably would have fallen asleep right there, but he kept me awake because he was really jumping all over the office. He was using different voices, shouting, screaming, running down the hall - he really did all those crazy things". Besides, Lee WAS passionate about comics, as in an interview, Bill Griffith said "I had a breakfast with him once, in San Diego, four or five years ago, and I was really surprised that he was some sort of a fan of my stuff. I mean, he said he liked it and then he actually described it so that I knew he wasn’t just bullshitting me. So, I was really surprised at that, I remember, because I always associated him with strictly with Marvel, and [the] superhero genre, and I never met him before, so I didn’t know if he had a wider taste in comics. But I remember I was pleasantly surprised that not only did he read my stuff, but he even asked me to do him a drawing, and he acted like a fan, and I was completely taken aback by that…" and later he says "He was very philosophical, just funny about it. I said something, I couldn’t resist giving him a kind of veiled opinion of superheroes, or at least analyzing them a little bit: what it was all about. As opposed to saying “I love Spider-Man,” saying, “Gee, what’s Spider-Man all about? Why does he exist? What’s the appeal?” And I remember him talking about myths and legends, and retelling myths. He was a smart guy; I enjoyed talking to him. He was very reflective and philosophical about what he did, which I found to be refreshing, because a lot of people involved in that genre are, you know, they’re not particularly bright, in my snotty opinion".

[@locusmortis]

@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em You just copy and paste the same crap into every thread like a maniac.

[@Shinmsl]

Super interesting video, I'll watch this video several times because I want to dissect every second of it.

[@randallmcilwaine2191]

I remember many years ago I created a character design to be used on a line of t-shirts. The person who would be producing the t-shirts asked me to add sunglasses to the character, then tried to claim herself as a "co-creator." 😂 Their are credit hogs everywhere in the art community.

[@jeremyhawkins5278]

I think that using the marvel method could work really well for some people. The problem all comes down to money and credit. Actually thinking about the idea deeply for the first time, it seems like Stan was acting more like a really involved editor than a writer. And this whole thing is interesting because you could say that the success of the MCU was due to a sort of Marvel Method of filmmaking. The auteur theory has basically won as the ideal for most people, but it's not the only way. The Hollywood studio system where the creatives were under the thumb of producers was called a golden age.

[@CharlesBarouch]

I write professionally. I just co-authored a book where I did the plot and key characters plus some editing. The other author did the actual on-the-page writing. I consider my contribution to be 20%. So, yeah, I believe the artists were undercredited in the Marvel Method.

[@AABB-bm9kk]

Great look at this issue/ controversy 👍 I’m fine with the artist only receiving a synopsis- BUT then the artist MUST receive both their due credit In the book itself as well as their paycheck ✌️

[@rayortiz313]

Fantastic video, thanks for exploring this. As both an artist and writer myself... yeeeahh... writing a story involves many techniques such as characterization (who everyone is), plot (what happens) and dialogue (what they say). Stan Lee found an all-too-clever way to get others to do... really big.... parts of his work for him. Some of the artists may have enjoyed doing that work, but they deserved the requisite credit and pay.

[@CoyotesOwn]

"Was making the opening difficult?" "Super easy, barely an inconvenience."

[@StevenRLegge]

Don Heck doesn’t get nearly enough respect.

[@rexharrison6827]

A distinct style. More suited to "slice of life" and romance stories perhaps, than superheroes. It took me awhile to adjust to him after people like Gene Colan, Kirby and Buscema, but I grew to love his Avengers and Iron Man runs. It's my understanding that he came up with many of the secondary characters in Iron Man, too, like Pepper Potts and Happy Hogan as well as Natasha Romanov.

[@kritta3able]

I love all the little skits you did in this episode!!

[@vigsaminathan5910]

This episode was full of surprises. Great job guys.

[@KevinMenace]

I don't think the Marvel method is bad but the artists should've at least got a co-plotting credit for the work done

[@phillyvoodoo]

Best intro so far..... Glad to see you in a much better mood as far as I can see.... I hope that means you can get some creative time to work on your own books now!!!!! 💪💪💪💪💪

[@pbot2029]

This was your best video by miles. Great job!

[@juniorjames7076]

The more I learn about the real actual history of Marvel and DC, the more I realize what a completely toxic culture it was for artists and writers. Stan Lee was a manipulative, gas-lighting, grifter who played the game well. But lets be honest, thats how most people get to the top in most fields and industries.

[@JonathanFournier]

The Pitch Meeting intro is amazing! Great idea for a video too.

[@Maratletoso]

As a writer, I’ll say if you only give the artist a vague description or plot, the artist is doing part of the writing. Even if the writer is doing all the dialogue and context afterwards, the artist deserves some kind of writing credit… Some like “co-writer” or “additional writing by”

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

it's actually a controversial topic, as John Romita actually contradicted what Kirby said, as in an interview Romita said "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". The comics journal interview is also really controversial, as Jack had as much of a bad memory as Stan, as he said he created Spider-man (which isn't true) and on another ocassion Jack said that Lee didn't know what mutations were, which isn't true, as Lee had already made sci fi stories with mutants kn it like "the mutants and me". Kirby also said he was the one that came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this isn't true as the hulk at first only transformed at night and the firdt time he transformed out of anger was in a story drawn by Dick Ayers. John Romita also said about working with Lee that "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on" and in another interview he also said that "If Stan weren’t such a histrionic character, I probably would have fallen asleep right there, but he kept me awake because he was really jumping all over the office. He was using different voices, shouting, screaming, running down the hall - he really did all those crazy things".

[@alexandrebelinge8996]

Great intro ! I was a great homage ! edit Great episode super fun, fancy editing and all wow just so good !!

[@DanBedBy11]

I hope Ryan sees this

[@matiasmendoza9274]

Hey, great video! Interesting subject and the skits were really cool 😎

[@oldylad]

I think that the whole Jack being a freelancer explains it all in terms of credit. Stan was iconic, and loyal to marvel. It only makes sense that they’d say he created it

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

it's actually a controversial topic, as John Romita actually contradicted what Kirby said, as in an interview Romita said "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". The comics journal interview is also really controversial, as Jack had as much of a bad memory as Stan, as he said he created Spider-man (which isn't true) and on another ocassion Jack said that Lee didn't know what mutations were, which isn't true, as Lee had already made sci fi stories with mutants kn it like "the mutants and me". Kirby also said he was the one that came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this isn't true as the hulk at first only transformed at night and the firdt time he transformed out of anger was in a story drawn by Dick Ayers. John Romita also said about working with Lee that "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on" and in another interview he also said that "If Stan weren’t such a histrionic character, I probably would have fallen asleep right there, but he kept me awake because he was really jumping all over the office. He was using different voices, shouting, screaming, running down the hall - he really did all those crazy things".

[@locusmortis]

@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em Romita was a company guy, he was art director at Marvel for a long time and he had to protect his regular gig as the newspaper strip artist for Spider-Man so he wasn't going to say anything against Stan or Marvel.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

@@locusmortis He kept saying that even after he retired. He said those things in late 90s interviews.

[@cha5]

@@oldylad Stan even stated that his publisher Martin Goodman had created Captain America in 1941 in a 1947 pamphlet called ‘Secrets Behind the Comics.’ (He didn’t, Joe Simon and Jack Kirby did.) So it’s not like denying creative credits is something new on Stan’s part.

[@cha5]

So what? Romita was also doing projects for Marvel post retirement and he had a son who was working in comics for both DC and Marvel, and as has been mentioned he was also a company man. It’s not like he would be raising a stink about Stan and Marvel at that point in his life. However even Romita recounted that things weren’t always a bed of roses at the Marvel Bullpen during its hay day. “I never sat in on their meetings. When they had a plotting session, the door was closed. But when Jack would send in, say, the first ten pages of a story-and this is how I knew where things came from-Stan would say to me, ‘Jack completely changed what we wanted the opening to be’ … They didn’t always remember what the other had said.” John Romita being interviewed by Roy Thomas for ‘John Romita… And All That Jazz.’ So yes, It’s always been a very controversial topic.

[@stephenvelez9710]

Fabulous episode! More esoteric historical deep dives, plz. Great research, Chris, excellent writing! Love the Pitch Meeting!

[@javib2978]

The opening of this video, feels like the movie pitch from Screenrant.

[@ComicTropes]

I mention Ryan George specifically.

[@marcusdavis5599]

Yes, that was what he was parodying...

[@adamderosa9142]

Great stuff, Chris 👍 always a treat when a new Comic Tropes pops up!

[@tellumyort]

Can’t wait for the Nellie The Nurse review.

[@KurtWilliamsReviews]

The video is worth the wait! Best comic channel out there 👌