The Riskiest play in Terran vs Protoss...

[@Mglunafh]

It's not about building CC first, it's about sending the message

[@alpacaherder5680]

exactly the psychology behind it "this guy just doesnt give a fk"

[@BradSamuelsPro]

"Artosis will never go CC first" is a metagame disadvantage for you against all Protoss opponents

[@typg93]

he says that because now he knows that his opponents knows that he knows that he won't get 4 pool'ed

[@RafalCichon-j2u]

@@typg93 🤣

[@ashneiljain]

I generally agree with Artosis' assessment about risk vs. reward with cc first. But the one consideration that needs to be included is expected value based on probability of builds. The 14 CC becomes more attractive on a risk/reward spectrum if your P opponent is highly likely to play standard.

[@MondSemmel]

Once again a floating building is the MVP in the game.

[@draganpetev4677]

1000 dragoon damage done to the Barracks instead of the Tanks... GG!!!

[@Ziegfried82]

The flying buildings have always been Terran's superpower. Although protoss being able to build an entire base with a single probe is also insane.

[@d38u20ttg]

@@Ziegfried82 yeah no kidding. there are more mechanics like covering up your units so they can't be targeted, patrolling buildings bug, etc

[@rawaffelwuff]

@@d38u20ttgit’s too bad you can’t crush units with landing buildings anymore. Especially interceptors. Those were the times.

[@chocorush]

I think it's worth exploring as a potential answer to nexus first builds. That kind of reasoning is easier to apply to build orders that are similar, where the randomness of the outcomes will have only subtly different variances and the math is relatively simple. But when the spread of playable positions are really different, the distribution of the outcomes have very different shapes. It becomes harder to assess the difference in the average outcomes, and there is more room for personal preferences to differentiate between the two strategies.

[@alexfriedman2152]

The difference is like... if both players go nexus first Terran has a slight advantage sure but if Protoss goes Zealot first you just lose. It's 100% betetr to just go rax expand instead. You can punish and pull scvs to kill the 12 nex if not cross spawn and you're still alive if they go zealot first with micro. If you go 13 CC vs Zealot first you just lose to zealot at high level, 100% of the time.

[@kilmindaro3]

I feel like I've seen this map before

[@iccupradio]

hahaahha

[@Elfcheg]

Higher on the street?

[@eddie-booth]

hello mr artosis, first of all, i hope u have a nice poop second, your talkie talk during the game suggested that bisu did the full, artosis approved, correct thing and then died. bisu seems pretty good at the game. i do not contest your statement that cc first is risky as af, but if it beats bisu when bisu delays the push, gets legs, and builds lots of extra production to contest the push, that seems pretty good

[@FireHydrant7]

Overall I definitely agree with your point, but I will say the way speed played out his CC first is sorta like a delayed all-in auto win. Basically this is probably the best way to "cheese" protoss as terran and get something to the effect a 4 pool vs terran has, if that makes sense.

[@bubblegumtate3384]

Exactly. Bisu did everything he could possibly have done to stop that push, and it still killed him.

[@TheRudeDudeJr]

The only time heavy risk with moderate reward is useful is when the one taking the risk feels as though they would lose if all things are equal. It's why people will try to cheese some of the greatest players in tournament.

[@MegaSchwarzesSchaf]

I think that from a theoretical standpoint, CC first can make sense if the counters to it are sufficiently rare in the current meta. That way, it will be generally favourable to play it - even though you will get hardcountered from time to time.

[@Szgerle]

The point of introducing builds like this from time to time is to force your opponent into thinking about countering it, to have "range" in your builds

[@ericjepson3765]

Econ cheese is cheese too. But while you were saying that the match wasn't over after he got the CC up is wrong, it was long over... Flash understood the power of Terran back when he was trying all those 14 CC builds. While it takes another 10 minutes, the match is over the second that CC starts mining. It is imperative that the other races stay ahead of Terran in econ bc Terran units are just so much stronger and cheaper.

[@afwaller]

From a general perspective I think you need to mix in something like CC first to make Protoss less efficient. You brought this up. I think it’s a losing move specifically in most matches but over time, with the longer horizon, can improve your win rate because people have to act as if you could go CC first, so they can’t be as greedy.

[@matrix3509]

Can I just say that I love how equivalent builds of the different races play out so differently from each other. Command Center first simply doesn't give the same value to Terran as Nexus first gives to Protoss. That actually works in Terran's favor somewhat, since Terran is a timing attack race, not a traditionally "greedy race" like Protoss, so you wouldn't expect Protoss-levels of greed from a Terran to be as advantageous to the Terran.

[@Dodo-td1pg]

This is just rock scissor paper Factory expand < dragoon search

[@rubberpower]

Bisu went has defensive as possible to hold the push. 9 gate with no tech and legs on time. He still couldn't hold. Unpunished CC first looks unholdable.

[@MondSemmel]

It looked to me like Bisu would've held the push if he hadn't wasted a few dragoon volleys on the floating rax.

[@yaoming2.026]

@@MondSemmeleven if he holds he’s mega behind because he literally has 0 tech and no 4th base, whereas speed was setting up for his third and upgrading as well. Even though that push looks like it has to do insane damage, it really doesn’t

[@FlymanMS]

Speed plays incredibly precise. He can easily become next Flash!

[@CaptainXD]

some very simplistic math here: w = CC first winrate against nexus first builds z = CC first winrate against all other builds t = the winrate of a standard fast expand build r = the percentage of your opponent's builds which need to be nexus first for CC first to be viable r = (t - z) / (w - z) if we assume w = 65%, z = 25%, t = 50%, then your opponent needs to be playing nexus first 62.5% of the time for you to get a better long run outcome playing CC first than playing a standard build i assume the statistics for w and z should be fairly easy to collect. theoretically "t" doesn't exist because there is no single standard build nor would it have a 50/50 winrate in all circumstances, but it's a good starting point.

[@Sciolist321]

Say you win 10% of the time against 25% of all possible builds but against the other 75% you win 67% of the time. That's 2.5% + 50%, so it's a good build to have in your range. In that case it might actually be better because you can add other builds to your range that do very well against zealot first, and your opponent would over-react. This is what Soulkey was talking about with the 7-pool comment a couple of years ago.

[@stambe8605]

Can you explain how did you do that math to 2.5% + 50% ?

[@Sciolist321]

10% of 25% is 2.5%. 2/3rds of 75% is 50%.

[@stambe8605]

@@Sciolist321 Thanks. Basic math, for some reason i didnt figure it out :)

[@helloken]

This is assuming your probabilities are correct though...I for one think the risk reward is a bit worse for CC first than the numbers you suggested (against Protoss specifically).

[@Sciolist321]

​@@helloken​ Sure, it's just an example of how it might work to use a build like this

[@scottfuscomusic]

If protoss’ are not going to scout because CC first is so rare, then it makes sense to counter that by going CC first more

[@alexfriedman2152]

A lot of Protoss were going natural gate zealot first just a year or 2 ago. If it's Zealot first you just instantly lose if you 13 CC. That's why it's not worth it. Rax expand survives everything with good micro and also gives you tons of eco, while you can still bust a 12 nex with SCV pull.

[@draganpetev4677]

1000 dragoon damage done to the Barracks instead of the Tanks... GG!!!

[@feldsparthegreat]

I'm no Brood War expert but in fighting games it's pretty common to take risks that outweigh the reward if only just to represent the threat and change the way your opponent plays (DPing on wakeup risks a huge chunk of life just to reset to neutral). In this example that might mean going CC first to discourage Nexus first. Yeah it's a big gamble from Terran but sometimes anything to discourage the "optimal play" can be worth it- as it makes them more reluctant to use their best tool. Especially in a ladder setting where you're just risking imaginary points. If representing that threat on the ladder makes them less likely to use it in tournament that's a win.

[@alexfriedman2152]

That's true but outside of a 7 game series it's not worth it to take huge risks. The chance of losing is too high. It's all fair game but it's mostly just a random 7 game series build. Ladder games it's just bad. Rax expand is still good but it's safe vs everything with good micro where as CC first you just instantly lose to 9 gate zealot.

[@somecooney5304]

I'm lovin these 13 min games. Imo, the viewing length sweet spot

[@itchytf]

I think CC first is fine as a calculated tournament build, but not a ladder build.

[@afwaller]

Risk it for the biscuit.

[@NoTengoStand]

I don't know enough about this game to have a strong opinion, but in the cast you mention Bisu's 9 gates with only Zealot Legs as a tech was exactly the kind of thing that he needed to have a chance to step the push. I would enjoy a more detailed analysis of what exactly he needed to do different to actually stop it. Was he just relying on Speed not executing the push perfectly? You generally mention you need to slow the push down forcing Terran to siege and unsiege multiple times, but a big group of Vultures sort of distracted Bisu's army and allowed Speed to take the center cleanly and quickly. Any chance it was actually unstoppable?

[@alexfriedman2152]

The micro was kinda bad tbh llike he ran zealots through mines and also you need to utilize a shuttle, which he tried to do but it's hard. Also, yeah you should slow it down if you can. Reaver is really good for that. It's also incredibly hard for Protoss to stop despite Artosis saying otherwise.

[@GaussianEntity]

​@@alexfriedman2152 Bisu mine dragged pretty well actually. He even got the tank count down to a minimum. But those vultures man, they're too good in a low unit battle. The mines were able to trade with Bisu dragoons which didn't allow him to rebuild to contest the Terran army.

[@alexfriedman2152]

@@GaussianEntity At 10:00 he runs about 8 zealots into mines and doesn't kill anything. Then at 10:26 he looses about 5 or so Goons for free. I did not see a single mine drag nor a goon dying to a mine. No idea what game you think you're watching. Also I play BW at a pretty high level I can tell you that's not what you're supposed to do. You need to either bomb with a shuttle to absorb the mines or send 1/2 zealots first to try to mine drag and clear mines but he lost like 10 zealots for free. That's why he lost

[@alexfriedman2152]

@@GaussianEntity To be fair there was a couple mine drags on goons after the big engagement but those didn't really matter because even if you hold you have like nothing and only 3 bases, the game was already pretty much over.

[@amp8601]

A new Artosis Cast? Chills.

[@greenwave819]

you have to risk it if they try to frisk it

[@MrAndersonmm]

Seems like Flash figure out going CC first was a bad move in most matchups like in 2008/2009. He had a time where he was going CC first like every game, against Zerg too, and just got stomped over and over again. I 100% agree any matchup but TvT and any map that isn't a partial island map going CC first is just too risky.

[@Smokewadwinslow]

I think of this like the wayward opening in chess, if your opponent doesn’t see what you’re doing it’s almost an automatic win. If you do get caught you’re pretty much dead in the water

[@bc3f4a]

Someone takes a risk: Artosis: 😤😲😩🤯🤬😨📉❎

[@GaussianEntity]

You forgot 🥶❄️

[@fuma34]

You mentioned a build not being a free win but instead providing a small advantage into a normal game and it feels like that was the goal from the start and not an unintended consequence

[@Gloriath1]

Before having watched even one second of the video, just inspired from the thumbnail: find someone in life who looks at you like I look at command center first plays in TvP (yeah, it's a dumb opening, but I love it :D).

[@TrapMagius]

"Speed! Everyone's loving speed right now!" Artosis and TSLdrugdealer collab 13 years in the making. As for the risk/reward on cc first? I can see that as a one-off build in a bo5, but beyond that it's probably a little too spicy.

[@junkgum]

In rock paper scissors, I choose scalpeled gold nuggaut because it can be carved into a trashcan which realistically also beats paper. With that being said, you got more maneuver with shuttled reavs with troops.

[@hunlepto2239]

I think a sneaky expo on the other side of the map where your opponent wouldn't expect it is a more fun gamble to take. Barely possible to defend, but barely anyone would expect nor scout it.

[@yeyedesignstudio]

I love how often I hear arty talk about how incredible a certain player is right now, and how strong they are, only to then immediately criticize their builds and say “I don’t know about this” 😂😂😂😂😂

[@jaketozer7841]

I was wondering about the general prevalence of goon before zealot openings specifically right now. Seemed like a fair point about the probe scout just wrecking the build, which (probe scout timing) is something I don't understand anywhere near deep enough to have any clue about. But, this coupled with whatever the % prevalence of nexus first builds on a map like Deja Vu is where my head went with it.

[@eriks2962]

P loses the shuttle at 10:08. Doesn't lose the Zealot inside but got force to early drop them. So he didn't get a good zealot bomb. And that probably explains the engage didn't go his way.

[@nachtkap]

This channel has just the right amount of Flash Vs. X. I does suffer from a lack of Artosis V.s X however!!

[@helloken]

Said it before and I'll say it again. CC first is only good vs Nexus first with very few exceptions. We have even seen Snow punish CC first with a cross spawn dragoon first build. And yes, agree with Artosis on the odds thing. If you are doing something THAT risky, you either need to be right a majority of the time, or it needs to put you so far ahead that the odds of you winning that game become equally high to odds that you're just dead if the opponent counters CC first. Gas-less rax expand is a far better build. You at least CAN adjust to whatever you see either by scouting or the probe coming in. I think Flash showed us how you might adjust your builds after preparing for rax expand based on what he sees. When taking risks, whether in life or in Brood War, it's about risk vs reward.

[@sasori720]

I think having the CC first is more about tournament play. If the enemy players know you are capable of mixing that build in, they adjust their builds to be less greedy, from a certain point of view.

[@thalanoth]

speed should have proxied 3 factories; trust me it works

[@tolearnandteach2595]

Been there 😂 both sides of it honestly

[@validgnajdorf5594]

CC first probably becomes more attractive when you are a significant underdog. You probably want to include some macro games in your range so you can’t be hard countered. but if you are losing the majority of those games playing standard you can probably bump your win percentage by doing this. Let’s say cc first just loses 25% of games but when it doesn’t you win 70% then hypothetically the build wins 52% of the time. It’s just a question of how much more often you win compared to standard play

[@LOLFLUSHDRAW]

this could be mindgames between the two players individually on the map or something similar. or speed just wanted to yolo against bisu to piss him off

[@osirisra1476]

Speed is the most exciting, entertaining player in Brood War at this point. He has the potential to be the best Terran in the world, too.

[@gabrielladias420]

Command Center first really does seem like a big, big gamble for a pretty small advantage

[@fenzo2043]

Bisu should talk to Best or play Micro Tourney Maps. His Engagement was bad. He ran into a bunch of sitting mines with his first Zealots and followed up too late with the rest of his army. He needed to clear this mines before or attack from another angle.

[@justingagnier2871]

TVT command first can work more often. TVP I don't go command first. I can get natural expand up usually up nearly as fast as toss or close to it and defend quickly without losing lots of mins to repairing bunker

[@zfeazcesd1047]

On standardish maps I generally agree with you Arty, however I would put more focus on the "auto-loss" aspect of 14cc rather than the lack of an "auto-win". There are just way too many scenarios that 14cc insta-dies. In a series I don't mind it being used against a particular player and map where you leverage the best odds of it being successful, but it shouldn't be used regularly. I don't know if it's better or worse than a 4 pool, that's kind of hard to compare, but I think it's more similar to something like 3 hatch before pool in ZvT / getting an extremely fast or ninja 3rd ZvT. You get a great advantage if it's successful, but by no means is it an auto win and you just instantly lose in a lot of scenarios. We know that pros generally agree with these assessments because of how infrequently they do these eco cheeses like 14cc or 3 hatch before pool.

[@wargumbyx]

people think of advantage wrong. in a balance game, advantage means you win unless you make so many mistakes that your opponent who is not faultless themselves is now advantaged against you. to do a build that gets an advantage means that in a balanced game if he simply plays with = or less total worth of mistakes than his opponent he has won, even if the game takes 10 more minutes to actually finish

[@GaussianEntity]

The thing is that it's easier to screw up a won game as Terran than the other races. That's what Artosis was trying to get across with the CC first not being as autowin vs other builds as certain builds are vs it. However, this argument falls apart at the highest levels where the pros will not make silly mistakes. Speed basically showed us a textbook Terran 6 fact push and despite Bisu trying to go for counterplay, he still got rolled.

[@Larsgman]

It’s incredibly risky because early game terran can’t do beans except wall up 9/10 times. Of those times a protoss can scout first and send a few zealots , its game over.

[@EebstertheGreat]

I think CC first is worth doing only if you think your opponent is very unlikely to scout it. If you really think the chance of an early scout is remote, then the build makes all the sense in the world, since it gives a significant advantage. So by definition, it's a build you can't do very often, or people will see it coming. All cheese has the same logic, but since the benefit of a successful CC first is smaller than the loss of an unsuccessful one, the probability of scouting it has to be especially low for it to be worthwhile. But it's still worthwhile in that case. For instance, I would accept a 10% chance of an instant loss if the other 90% of the time I get a solid advantage that lets me win 60% of my games. That's better than just doing a normal strat and winning 50% of the time.

[@liammorriss]

Here faster than Flash stealing my girl

[@montanac223344]

The riskiest play is queuing up Terran in the first place

[@VolkannGul]

Amusing that you did not got chills for CC first build.

[@dj_koen1265]

its definitely a meta call i think, if protoss are skipping zealot a lot and dont expect cc first then the build becomes nice to mix in

[@somecooney5304]

want to see marine range get rushed in place of siege to stop goon pressure, and then have marines included in tank pushes. That's what I want to see.

[@maxbachvaroff1967]

Winrate is winrate, duration of game doesn’t matter. At the moment he got scouted by the probe with 1 marine, speed had a very high winrate

[@maxrs07]

Some builds have advantage on some maps even in 1 off games vs random guy on ladder. But if u r playing even ladder vs same guy doing a cc first at some point is a no brainer.

[@Picaroon9]

If that shuttle unloaded and the barracks wasn't there I think Bisu takes it, for such a risky build the payoff doesn't seem worth it.

[@dylaninnes8541]

I'm in agreement but you Need to do it sometimes because without mixing it up losses will mount Predictability is the enemy of victory

[@brandonquailer8595]

When dealing with the CC first question, I don't think its that simple. On ladder a CC first may lose 90% of the time to protoss. However, if you know the player and how they play and they like nexus first or something along those lines, you can counter them by doing a CC first. The part of it immediately winning or not is simply something you have to take into consideration as part of the risk and reward. I think the top guys all know each other and their play styles. We can't see everything they see and so why they do these builds can be a more complex than we can understand. Maybe Bisu did nexus first the last 5 times against Speed and so Speed was frustrated and went CC first here.

[@no1xtz765]

CC first and followed by a well executed micro control during the next few scuffles are the two determining factors….can’t just have one….plus CC first is risky ah

[@Bytewalker]

CC first feels like part of a GTO balanced opening strategy that should be low frequency. Can also be used exploitatively if you know very well how your opponent always plays. Yes I've been watching too many poker videos

[@upmagic]

I aree with you Arty that CC first is too high risk / low reward build. Also, that engagement from Bisu 150 vs 110 supply, Bisu had already he needed [shuttle, zealot legs] and with this significant supply advantage he didn't break it. He should stalled it a little more, OR prepare a better flank. Basically one bad engagement, maybe a perfect targeting by speed to have tanks on goons etc.

[@martinbalke1843]

Bisu really needed to delay that push more. He just completely gave up the center and let speed come across the map to his high ground.

[@FlymanMS]

Templars with storms would've solved it.

[@TheEnergizer94]

​@@FlymanMS but then he'd have a shitty amount of units because of teching

[@bfors8498]

This vulture run around thing is still working against P for some reason. They always chase. We saw this same thing happen a bunch of times in SSL.

[@riuoku]

What makes the most sense to me is to very rarely include it in, just to force Protoss to be less greedy in other games when you are not running CC1st - especially when you know who your enemy is and what is his playstyle. The hard question is, how often you should do that?

[@chronopolize_jp]

I think its valid if you really want to play this 6 fac scenario into them

[@osirisra1476]

Speed made this CC-first look like an auto-win if it doesn't get scouted by P. Bisu saw exactly what Speed was doing, did exactly what he was supposed to do, and still got completely crushed. You can math this out. What % does Speed have to accurately guess Bisu will not go Zealot first/get scouted first? You have to really know your opponent's tendencies on the map. Obviously that % chance is "very, very high." Like 80%, at least, I'd imagine. Then you put a % on Speed winning if his CC first is successful. That % must also be very, very high.

[@ivarkreuger3098]

Bisu is not gambling on an attack coming, he is playing vs speed ffs!

[@PJJ196]

Feels like arty took a bump before recording this video .. ITS TIME FOR BAN OR UNBAN!!!

[@in4moon]

I guess this is the law of Meta ... you do something that is not expected. .... Even if the risk/reward factor on CC first is low, it still makes sense to do it, just do it rarely enough to be effective in current meta.

[@emmanueleferrarotto2986]

I've got need for Speed (pun intended) so keep them coming ^^

[@TheDrakmannen]

Last time I was this early my wife left me

[@mitchwaddell25]

Ouch

[@Loeschzwerch]

you should have told her that you are just being efficient

[@sirris4330]

Glad you managed to get back together 😋

[@CorrectHorseBatteryStaple472]

What could Bisu have done differently to hold that? The engagement didn't look 100% clean, and I dunno if the barracks did as much as people think. A lot of the damage when out while the goons were retreating

[@sleeper1855]

CC first *may* be a bad build, but I don't necessarily agree that economic cheese is always bad.

[@MeteoImpact3374]

The risk/reward on CC first might not be great, but it might be the sort of thing you want to have in your wheelhouse if you intend to win big tournaments. Like with SoulKey's 7 pool match that you always bring up, it could just be a long-term strategic play, just another thing to threaten Protoss players with to keep them honest with their own greed in a longer set. And maybe that doesn't really make sense on ladder, but you have to practice the build somewhere, and if going deep in SSL is your actual goal as a player then the experience is worth more than losing some internet points. Maybe there's some better play in similar situations like BBS or whatever, but that's for good players to figure out ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@thomasbrandenburg3489]

Its a horrible idea to never go cc first vs toss (but gotta be a rare choice)

[@SamLinton-r6z]

CC first maybe we would only see at a high S level or in a tournament setting since like you said, it doesn't guarantee a free win. CC first is technically the best opener vs Terran if you pull it off yeah? I'd like to know the theory about CC first vs Terran

[@gilbertchng8202]

It's game theory. All things held equally, if you know a strategy wins 10% of the time, you should play it 10% of the time.

[@hellotheremyolfriend]

well said. that's how the law of large numbers works.

[@D3Z3R7]

There's no guarantee that the one out of X times you use that strategy will also be the one out of X times your opponent picked a strategy that loses to it. In a tournament, you don't do a 10% winrate cheese gamble because you haven't done it in a while, you do it because you specifically believe your opponent likely won't be able to defend it or you're truly desperate for a diceroll win because you can't win otherwise.

[@gilbertchng8202]

@@D3Z3R7 who said anything about guarantee? You're just maximizing your chances. CC first happens pre-scout, so not that easy to make the intuitions you're describing between equally strong players. You also do need to keep your opponent guessing.

[@hellotheremyolfriend]

@@D3Z3R7 what a noob

[@phoenixlich]

Zerg is so HYPE!

[@darkstarpress9455]

I think VERY OCCASIONALLY you still want to do a bad risk/reward build like this. I think the EV of your opponent thinking "This guy will do any build" is worth it. You don't want your opponent to have in their head "This guy never goes CC first" or "This guy never 4 pools." I realize the 4 pool actually wins where CC first doesn't, but as long as you're not doing this more than every so often I think it's worth it

[@matthewcook1735]

I think you are right artists, but Mayne you could add some math, what is the chance of an early scout or zealot? Then you can kinda calculate the advantage

[@yaoming2.026]

Yeah I don’t agree with the assessment that cc first is a bad build at all, it actually hard beast most Protoss opening: nexus first, range expand, and rangeless expand. As we can see from the game, when against these macro openers the incoming 5 factory push is unstoppable. Bisu dedicated his entire game to producing units, sacrificing his tech and economy, but still couldn’t hold. With a cc first the 5 fact push comes out 30 seconds earlier which makes it basically impossible for the Protoss to hold - for reference a normal 5 fact push is already pretty difficult to hold as the Protoss, so an even earlier one is unstoppable

[@ChristophelusPulps]

I think mixing in CC-first is important to keep Protoss from playing too greedily.

[@pallytime2156]

What I wonder is if you could play it better then Speed Did at the strategic level to make it no as close of a match. Example would be... 1. Go 6 fact all in... get units... scan to gage how opponent is responding. If enemy is playing like Bisu then just go take a 3rd, turtle, max, upgrades, attack. Speed Vults and Mines could have been interesting over fast siege Mode. I recall the issue these days with upgrade terrian is Reaver Suttle... but also the fact that Protoss will go up to 5 base with no units. I think Speed Vults and Mines before siege mode... having a group of those on the map... then later supporting it with a Dropship with 2 tanks... MIND style is something that needs to be looked into. The other one on my brain is that game where FLASH never got Siege Mode and just had Double Factory pumping tanks before the Reaver flew in. As a general rule though... CC first is like Nexus First... Only Really good on 4 player Maps... and even then you don't want to do it that often. I think vs PROTOSS specifically you should CC first more often... sense Nexus First is still so popular. Poker Math says you a dummy if you don't CC first on 4 player Maps at least 1 in 6 games. Moral of the story is I think Flash CC First or MIND CC First would look different mid game. Also I would note that SPEED killed Bisu with a Flash Build... floating rax and everything. One thing that bothers me in these pushes is how few SCV's they bring to the party. I often seen Flash bring 6+. Repairs, turrets, blocking, soaking fire... In this game though, I would have liked to see speed do a pump-fake and back up to take a 3rd. Higher win-rate I bet. I bet you if we watch flash games, sometimes he makes 6 factories... lets you SEE the 6 factories... kicks your observers out of the base... and then just doesn't macro out of them tell he has a 3rd CC building. If they go army then you can still macro and turtle... take a 3rd... if they don't have army you can still attack hard with 8+ SCV cannon fodder with a 3rd CC to make up the numbers. CC gets you X advantage... X advantage is NOT ENOUGH to WIN... so you NEED to find a way to make X advantage generate X++ Advantage. Otherwise the Risk not worth the reward.

[@EggsTeaSea]

I think CC first has its uses in real tournament matches because it's such a wild card if you play against an opponent that plays "the right way" (like artosis) theyll think "surely theyre not going CC first" and just play with that assumption and then get hit with it. But it's such a greedy move for a low reward, it's definitely nowhere near as good as a 4pool.

[@BrbAtTheGym]

So a couple of things.. i’m 1800-1900 MMR protoss player so not that good at the game.. In my opinion, I agree that CC first in TvP is overall not a very good opener because it can just die against zealot-first / forward gate openings, which I do a lot… But I also think going CC first in a series can work. Especially if we look back at the Rush vs Rain series. Rush got so desperate at the end he opened BBS when CC first would’ve been the better gamble against a Toss that keeps going nexus first.. TLDR: CC first in TvP will probably never viable in random / ladder games.. but is also not explored enough in series play.

[@Chamuzi]

I love ArtosisCasts.

[@pointlessmanatee]

he was coming for a long time

[@Equim991]

I am probably in the minority but i am having trouble differentiating the 2 players on the minimap here (in general, i have issues differentiating red and brown). Would appreciate it (if possible) if you could switch the colours to blue/red like the observer does in ASL/SSL. Again, no idea if it's possible from this observer view. Loving the videos btw.

[@thomasb1943]

I think Terran is in such a bad spot you kind of have to take risks just to get on even footing with the other races.

[@icekoozie4261]

Loving these games, but its time to revisit some Flash games!

[@chongli297]

Artosis I agree with you on the assessment of this game in isolation (CC first worse than 4pool as a gamble opener) but I think you downplay the mindgame/metagame aspects to it. These guys are going to be hitting each other in tournaments countless times in the future. Playing openings like this on the ladder, especially if Speed has looked at Bisu's replays and gone "oh he doesn't scout here! time to CC first!", has way more of a long-term strategic/psychological advantage than you give it credit. I see the same kind of thing happen with top-level online chess, where Grandmasters like Magnus Carlsen will play weird/random/unsound/bad openings and still beat his opponents. It's a huge psychological advantage to put the idea in your opponent's mind "this guy is unpredictable! I have to prepare for everything!"

[@Jamesgalc-gs8wu]

Speed was only 4 workers ahead when the first protoss nexus was completed. Not worth it imo.

[@TahoeRacerTV]

The risk is overwhelmingly worth it to go Command Center first. You sound like you are so afraid of it that it can never ever be done. It's something that you can mix in and do here and there. It's worth it. I love CC first.

[@drewwalbeck6006]

Maybe the fact that the build isn't that great and therefore protoss won't expect terran to go cc first ends up making it strong

[@Kilo_Alpha_Delta]

It's one of those "keeping them honest" builds. If you're playing against someone who is unlikely to rush or cheese you then why wouldn't you take the free econ boost?

[@CpjzAlerts]

The risk is high for cc first because this ain't a Flash build

[@kevinf.2556]

any reason why ppl dont snipe SCVs? goons have shields that replenish, just dont take hull dmg 3 goons two shot 1 scvs iirc?