Wait...is Mass Marines the new Meta?

[@somekindoflandcow]

5:50 I think the word you're looking for is 'intuition' or similar lol

[@sir0herrbatka]

Disco Elysium Shivers ;-)

[@JCMiniPainting]

Was gonna say the exact same thing. Maybe an argument could be made for "tact"

[@direct278]

Yeah, I was going to say "you just intuitively know once you're really familiar with the game."

[@HoriHorizon]

Yeah same word came to me with that question. Intuition fits that perfectly

[@trololkhil9868]

"Experience"...they already played so much they can simulate outcomes because they have already tried it so many times. That's not intuition. Intuition would be for example recognising signs of a particular strategy or pincer attack/entrapment/sneak attack approach before it occurs etc.

[@skcarr4119]

10:48 Owen Wilson joins the cast!

[@mf_________]

'A hidden gem.'

[@ThinkytheThinker]

Wow, wow

[@enruins1312]

😂

[@Agagdhshh]

😅

[@Agagdhshh]

Oh my goodness that was hillarious ahahahahahaha good call

[@liveandjaphappy]

5:20 it’s called chills

[@kylehuartson9448]

Guys, it's him.

[@larsrikardsen4964]

But really the term is intuition

[@levig7042]

@@larsrikardsen4964 I'd say 'mental math' too

[@EebstertheGreat]

11:13 The overlord was definitely a big issue lol, especially the second one. You gotta read the top comments. The supply block was the entire reason Zealot lost last game.

[@deanmissimer]

Yeah I thought it was weird that he missed that both times, especially after everyone in the comments pointed it out last time. Surely he knows that it costs supply to morph lurkers...

[@EebstertheGreat]

@@deanmissimer I checked again and the first overlord in that game died at 5:10 lol, so actually not relevant to the later supply block. And he mentions the supply block at 9:50, but I guess he either forgot about it or didn't realize it was late enough to delay the lurkers. Though Zelot also didn't morph the lurkers at all anyway, even when he had the chance, while he was getting antennae or whatever, so who knows?

[@kingbigyoshi4685]

@@deanmissimer I'm assuming all the videos were recorded one right after another

[@Bleachz0rs]

I think most people would colloquially call it intuition, but it’s actually a heuristic. The idea is relevant in math and computer science (and other fields) as well. Basically over time as our brains access more and more data (through experiences) it builds generalizations that it can apply to situations immediately. So that our brains can be more energy and time efficient (although not perfect). It wouldn’t be practical for our brains to evaluate every relevant related experience before making a decision so instead it just applies a heuristic that it’s built over time. The idea is interesting because you can extrapolate it to other things like cognitive bias, etc., and this is also how our current Large Language Model AIs are working too.

[@SchemingGoldberg]

In other words... intuition.

[@hemmydall]

@@SchemingGoldberg intuition is "feeling" and not always logical. A heuristic is built upon many statistical data and experiences. Both are decision-making tools. In the case of a highly experienced player, they are usually basing a lot of what they do on heuristics.

[@lsdap1969]

Isnt that just an educated guess?

[@hemmydall]

@@lsdap1969 in effect I suppose? You can program ai or games using heuristics. I wouldn't say you can program things to make guesses without it adding some randomness.

[@vavohaho9107]

I like how pedantic this is. I was going to suggest second nature. Implying it becomes embedded through practice and repetition.

[@RJB_TV]

instinct. intuition. game sense. all based on experience and one's ability to use that experience as a frame work of reference to formulate a solution to a problem on a moment's notice to get the best outcome out of a situation.

[@CorrectHorseBatteryStaple472]

10:15 friendly SCV repairing that hydra den

[@TKGameGuy]

5:36 "game sense" or "situational awareness" are how I generally describe it; maybe "recognizing positional strength" or similar.

[@magne6049]

"intuition"

[@ilgimdemirel]

I'd say pattern recognition

[@RomanHofstätter-i6b]

damn, Mutas ALWAYS look almost invincible to me.

[@Classic_DionysuS]

go drive around 11+OL around a group of marines and watch how hard it is to keep them alive

[@2639theboss]

​@@Classic_DionysuS My guy for us its hard just to move overlords and breathe at the same time.

[@Kilo_Alpha_Delta]

@@Classic_DionysuS A lot easier than controlling 24+ ground units in 2-3 control groups that need to be constantly replenished all with suicidal tendencies to wander away from the group and get stuck on map geometry, each other, and buildings. Also with very fast macro cycles. I think even most pros admit that SK Terran in general is one of the most APM intensive and difficult playstyles.

[@moralessanchezoscarelias6412]

Top level muta micro is terrifying

[@zfeazcesd1047]

@@Kilo_Alpha_Delta it's not easier, just different kind of difficult. As Terran you have the luxury of being able to make a lot of mistakes with ur m&m losing lots of marines and still be in a strong position, as zerg u dont. You also have more pressure to get damage done with the mutas than the terran. you're on a timer and if T gets critical mass of m&m or gets vessel ur mutas become useless no matter who you are. you're also on a timer of having to constantly regroup your mutas with a new overlord and not get it killed or u lose supply...and this is difficult enough that pros regularly lose their overlord that's grouped with the muta. just look at how much arty struggles when he plays Z and controls muta. i'd also like to see a source for that claim that "most pros think SK terran is one of the most apm intensive and difficult play styles".

[@iaml.4290]

From an outside perspective (I don't play), Bishop isnt making enough static defence to give him the freedom to execute the all-in. He has the resources to build maybe another 4-6 turrets which hopefully with better unit grouping can let him overwhelm the Zerg in on offense without being tied to base defence. So the key seems to be smoothening that transition when zerg gets to 12+ mutas and is confident enough to start entering the base and picking off marine clusters.

[@Stranzua]

I've been saying this forever, but Terran tends to build their buildings too spread out. If they can, they're going to have to start building in a way where they can build turrets closer together. Plus, if mass marine is going to catch on, a few more bunkers would help keep the marines alive longer. In my opinion, that would be more efficient than constantly trying to 'catch' the mutas with the marines. They're just too slow.

[@dj_koen1265]

@@Stranzua bunkers are too big to place them everywhere, they have less range than turrets also and they arent as flexible

[@Stranzua]

@@dj_koen1265 Yeah. I just think turrets are terrible and constantly trying to run through all your buildings with marines spreads them too thin. A few bunkers in strategic places might help keep your turrets and marines alive longer.

[@ssangry99]

5:36 “experience”

[@avivavitan7923]

eye balling

[@JPR3D]

I absolutely love sequential games of almost identical builds because it does a great job of teaching you the strengths & weaknesses of the builds, and what stages of the games you really need to be awake for, and what to watch out for. A build is nothing without execution so seeing the builds being executed, I would argue teaches you more about them than just knowing what the builds are and the strategy behind them. Like a build can be "You do this, this, this, and then when you have X number of units you move across the map because you have a timing window before Y enters the game." Ok cool, understandable - What should I be looking out for during my move out aside from the obvious? What are the instances I need to be prepared for that can shift this game subtly or massively even when I'm doing everything right? How much do I need to be pressuring the mutas directly vs getting across the map to make my timing window? Seeing sequential games is the next best thing to doing it and seeing for yourself.

[@tiborgrun6963]

It's what's called "System 1" in "Thinking, Fast and Slow" by Daniel Kahneman.

[@haloreach2074]

The very first game of Starcraft I played my buddy maxed out on marines and sent them to my base. He called it the million man marine march. Glad to see it's comeback

[@alexedingfield5222]

The word is automaticity as a math teacher it’s important that previous concepts can be performed automatically so that new concepts can be done with full mental. Automaticity is the ability to perform a task without much thought or effort, due to repetition and practice. It's a cognitive process that involves long-term associative connections and requires consistent training to develop.

[@knutboersma4386]

Similar to sight word recognition in reading

[@billyboberto]

wrong mate, its autonomic, or sub/unconscious learning, meaning learnign that you experience but awareness is not an input. Automaticity in biology refers to cardiac cell growth and development, not neural development

[@bradleyakulov3618]

@@billyboberto If you're going to start a sentence with "wrong mate," you better have something intelligent to say and not something absurdly stupid. I've tried to understand your rebuke, and it's absolutely incoherent. Automaticity is best explained by an experienced driver no longer actively concentrating on driving, which is now done subconsciously, but can focus his conscious attention on billboards or on conversation or thinking about the day to come or the day that passed. (the word Arty was looking for is simply experience by the way). But yes, automaticity applies, so does intuition. Now what you had to say doesn't even remotely come close to what the grown ups in the room are talking about; you're the man-child who barged in drunk and unintelligibly spurted out a word salad so confidently, everyone cringed in unison.

[@rodrigomarchioli2707]

The thing you were trying to say for me, as a philosopher, I would call intuition.

[@jonathaniszorro]

Artosis, if you’re getting chills then we’re enjoying the show, so go for wherever your passion drives you. More chills = more views

[@TheDesertSpear]

One big difference from game 1... in game 1 he killed an overlord that supply blocked the zerg for a bit

[@stomachfat]

@5:50 Starcraft IQ! In basketball we call that 'basketball IQ', like 'Lebron's basketball IQ is off the charts'. So I would call this 'Starcraft IQ". And newbie players can up their SC IQ over time. It's basically game knowledge. Intuition is reserved is a deep understanding that even with basic building blocks of knowledge, one might not be able to grok. Instincts is for snap decisions (which might depend on SC-IQ, intuition, or star-sense). Star-sense is reserved for high level mind-gaming at world's biggest stages. Starcraft IQ < Instincts < Intuition < Star-sense

[@Joelieb0y123]

Lmao I read the caption and instantly thought of the astronaut meme holding the pewpew to his back “always has been” 😂😂😂

[@dogmeat7486]

5:50 its called intuition because intuition is how the subconscious analyzes and assess situations in a way that your over-consciousness is not aware of.

[@paxslayer2722]

I like that you went back in the replay and did some analysis, almost felt a bit like a day9 daily from back in the day

[@Shadowfex]

I've always used the term "instinct" for what you were describing.

[@ScootsMcPoot]

Would be more heuristic than anything. Intuition is like a sub category. But heuristic function comes from doing something so much that your brain really doesn't have to comprehend the action, it just knows. Like a dog following a scent. It doesn't think, this is the best way to find the smell, it just does it. It's an heuristic function. Intuition falls in that category. But heuristic can be interpreted as "common sense" "intuition" "prejudice" etc

[@ScootsMcPoot]

mental shortcuts that can facilitate problem solving and probability judgments. Is a better definition of heuristic. Less complicated lol. I over explain. Instinct would be like your scratch reflex. English is stupid

[@CC-qo3dv]

To answer your question, I think the best word to use to describe a developed player's ability to quickly evaluate a situation and respond would be "heuristic." BishOp, like other pros and semi-pros, have developed heuristic decision making processes that enable them to quickly make decisions with limited information and/or theoretical ambiguity (while we have learned a lot in 25+ years, SCBW is by no means completely "figured out," so there is theoretical ambiguity at times). (I know this word has other specialized meanings, don't come at me if this doesn't match your field's use of the word.)

[@evilteddy11]

Lots of good answers for 5:50 in the comments. Another possibility is calling it gestalt reasoning (or as they call it, at least in healthcare contexts, a clincal gestalt or simply gestalt). It's pattern recognition reasoning based on percieving the whole collectively based on experience. The weakness is its hard to teach, but the strength is you can do it without a more lengthy analytical process. It's a type of heuristic reasoning (another good suggestion).

[@ScootsMcPoot]

Heuristic function is wild. A lot falls under the category. Which is why I hate English. "Intuition" common sense" "prejudice" etc. Really not a known thing until college level education. It's a fascinating thing. Should be taught in high-school. I don't think people realize how cool our brain is. Just basic things like breathing are you physically thinking about it and doing it, but not noticing it just happens. But once you think about it, you notice you have to control your breathing. Interesting stuff. I love the nervous system. Screw planets we will never see, let's fund understanding our brains more

[@riddler143]

Seemed like to me bishop really needed to drop 5-6 more turrets, so he could trap the mutas, he was floating a ton of minerals, so it really seems like he can afford it after getting the rax up

[@houndofzeus]

There’s a cool French term called coup d’oiel, which means stroke of the eye. It’s the ability to look at things and quickly discern the state of affairs

[@elliot1254]

Knowing the health and the variable damage based on timing is a form of mental calculus. It’s similar to the way people intuitively know how to throw objects based on gravity pulling the object down.

[@joshua3196]

I thought the supply block in the first game delayed lurker production resulting in Terran win

[@VYBEKAT]

Its so awesome to watch the two games back to back. In the firat game when the mutas chased that Terran attack I was thinking NOOO just keep attacking the SCV line!!!! It draws them back every time. And we see that mutas are fast enough to chase down any marines if necessary

[@bendangeruss501]

I would enjoy seeing this play out 10 times in a row. These guys give us a great game.

[@MORJDK]

New drinking game. Take a shot each time Artosis gets chills.

[@SchemingGoldberg]

Instructions unclear, I'm now in the hospital from alcohol poisoning.

[@kuilu]

Thoughtless, Intuition, a lot of words for this exact feeling and skill you hone down for so long.

[@riuoku]

IT'S BEEN MONTHS SINCE LAST FLASH GAME... ARTOSIS HAVE SOME MERCY

[@joebazooks]

bishop had so much money. just build a few turrets along the bottom edge of the map inside his base

[@admireinspire]

Internalizing the build timings via hp/game timer is what I call seeing through the matrix.

[@VladTchompalov]

1:58 Arty your meta explanations are so goooood

[@cdevergreenlawns1374]

@5:49 I think the closest thing we have is "game sense" Where its kind of your mind absorbing all the information at lightning speed and rather than have a straight calculation your instinct guides you.

[@wre0618]

Tacit knowledge or implicit knowledge-as opposed to formalized, codified or explicit knowledge-is knowledge that is difficult to express or extract; therefore it is more difficult to transfer to others by means of writing it down or verbalizing it. This can include motor skills, personal wisdom, experience, insight, and intuition. - Wikipedia

[@mes4925]

I would describe it as a “mental shortcut” where your experience tells you how much time it takes your X number of units to kill a thing. In this case you know the “build time remaining cutoff” for 5 marines.

[@JerzyJerzowski]

Yo! I play a nice nontcg deckbuilder called Star Realms, where I tackle the same thing, where sometimes you just know what will/can happen. It is based on experience and mostly you don't think about it, but you can overwrite it with concious decision when there is a non typical condition. I call it subconcious decision tree. When you spare your brain resources in order to use them more effitiently somewhere else. If you base only on it - you play mindless standard meta game. And you probably miss that edge case scenario that could give you win. Game/tactical experience is simply adjusting that subconcious decision tree based on your experiencs/outside knowledge. After all both games are form of poker. :) You'd be surprised how your streams helped me achieve championship in Star Realms.

[@Shield_Battery]

"quickly sizing up an opponent" is what I call it. End result for multitiered process, of correctly evaluating game state through direct or indirect scouting, at a glance, is what enables that autonomic response/decision making speed, aka "muscle memory", "zen/empty state", "Zone" for any closet PoT Weebs. NFL has been using pre-snap flash cards to refine Line of Scrimmage movement to reveal defense scheme. And even VR tech during practices to speed up decision-making reads and responses

[@TheJundPlayer]

I believe the word you are looking for Artosis is intuition. There is a certain amount of intuition players have towards certain situations in knowing how to play and react.

[@fancypants6062]

5:37 In the 4 stages of mastery, this would be unconscious competence.

[@Medinaxz]

Bishop was floating a lot of minerals near the end. Is 8 barracks going to keep his money down, or would it be better to dedicate some SCVs to put up more turrets? As you said, he never hit a critical mass of marines... And he had 700-800 minerals floating for a couple minutes at least. I wonder if a bunker or two would've helped...Ah, just armchair theory. But the massive mineral float on 7 barracks makes me think he couldn't get enough forces out.

[@BaconHer0]

5:40 The technical term is "tacit knowledge", Artosis

[@jakovmatosic4890]

Tacit knowledge is a great term thanks

[@MrRyant66]

Special tatics

[@Dhovakim]

I was gonna say gamesense

[@JaTinker]

@@Dhovakim I was thinking this too

[@davidm2031]

​@@jakovmatosic4890eh more intuition. But the terms are adjacent.

[@jakovmatosic4890]

It's called an instict or intuition when you know when to not attack. Maybe trained instinct?

[@edbwestlund]

Phronesis - “wisdom in action” or “practical reason” - means roughly to do the appropriate thing, in the appropriate way, at the appropriate time

[@TheSuperappelflap]

I would word the thing about being able to tell in advance whats going to happen "calling fights" specifically in RTS games

[@drewwalbeck6006]

It's interesting because you need sooo much bio to deal with the mutas but the actual bust only take like 1 and a half control groups

[@JeemBare]

Looked like Bishop had a little bit of excess income, maybe that extra 8th rax, or some additional missile turrets would have tipped the scales and let him get a more critical mass of marines?

[@andysemeniuk1010]

Came here to say something similar

[@SindarinElealar]

One big difference between the two games is how much damage Zelot was able to do with the Mutas in Bishop's self-made choke @8:23. The marines had to walk out in file and the mutas killed so many of them. This was honestly mostly a micro difference especially in terms of Muta vs. Marine control.

[@graog123]

5:15 it's called experience, Arty.... you even USED THE WORD! lmao

[@iiroaro808]

5:40 I'd call accurate, snap decision making based on feel and intuition like that "game sense"

[@zfeazcesd1047]

I think what you're describing is game sense or intuition that allows an experienced player to accurately predict outcomes of battles before they occur. I don't know if there is a word that accurately and concisely describes that process, but it's an automatic evaluation that is based on experience and game knowledge. Every experienced BW player has seen this exact engagement enough to know without having to think that committing to the attack results in a worse position for Terran...but even if the engagement is slightly different or unique you still use your knowledge of the units and the numerous engagements you have seen in the past to be able to sense whether it's worth engaging or not.

[@Frenchkid3000]

5:42 Maybe Predictive Situational Assessment? Tactical Engagement Timing? Engagement Window Assessment? Action-Impact Forecasting? or like many others are saying: game sense, intuition, etc

[@JohnDobak]

5:30 I'd call it reflexive thought, or decision making. It's a trained response.

[@stevemattero1471]

@6:00 it's just a sense you buid after years of playing. I would describe it as instinct, but it's not exactly instinct any more than it’s muscle memory

[@Kardis]

The word you're looking for is Eudaimonia. It's from ancient Greek, and often gets translated as "happiness", but actually refers to a state of being where you fully comprehend and understand the world or situation you're in to the greatest extent humanly possible. In moments of Eudaimonia, you are the best human you could ever be in that situation. For more information, please read The Nichomachean Ethics, by Aristotle. Edit to provide a pronunciation guide: you-die-moe-knee-uh

[@ScootsMcPoot]

It's Heuristic by definition

[@banjiu10]

This is literally "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

[@tolearnandteach2595]

You weren't building up, you were glazing so hard you forgot to pay attention to the game 😂

[@ScootsMcPoot]

Here's a fun one. You actually physically control your breathing. It's not an automatic reflex. You will never notice this, until you think about it

[@SomethingScotty]

All you need is backdoor dropship play and you got one of Terran's most popular SC2 builds.

[@BrandonAbel01]

Based on the fingers i counted with my one hand and a few on the other didn't Terran build one less barracks this game. That's one marine less every cycle the whole time the Mutas were on his case.

[@fliphated]

5:50 - This is pattern recognition. You've just seen it so many times, you instantly know what the outcome will be. It's like in chess when you see that your knight can fork the king and queen. Just the threat of that pattern executing will determine the prior moves in order to prevent/defend it since everyone knows what happens when the pattern is realized!

[@deadninjas]

It's called Game Sense and it's a term used all the fucking time in Counterstrike. Intuition is for non-nerds.

[@Nat-bq9sp]

The word you are looking for is "Heuristics" - mental strategies used to solve problems quickly

[@TravisFawver]

A larger component of this is what we in a corporate environment would refer to as 'Risk Tolerance'. Typically the math being done isnt just 'he has more than me' but more-so is in line of 'what are the odds of me winning/losing based on this move'.

[@noonefromnowhere99]

Yes, I do enjoy it, shows just how tight these builds need to be with their timings.

[@TamásIstvánBarbarics]

I think the term you're looking for is "intuition" which is subconscious pattern recognition.

[@redbird8888]

18., V1

[@mateuspopoff]

I really enjoy play with marines only! It's very fun! Glad to see marines crushing in the ladder

[@benjamincarmona3703]

If you want a more technical term compared to just "intuiton" the concept can be called "Heuristics"

[@Frightning]

5:10 The term is game sense (or game knowledge to be a little more specific; but it's really just the familiarity to where you know immediately how that fight would go, and that's game sense).

[@kilmindaro3]

lol at that SCV plinking away at the hydra den

[@wargumbyx]

it looks like the term is either experiential knowledge or practical knowledge. both seem to deal with knowledge gained through experience things a lot rather than simply reading about it or hearing about it

[@simonchai3040]

Brood war is great. So many ways to play it

[@christianflanery8839]

Pattern recognition is the phrase Artosis was looking for I think. A chess kind of thing.

[@darkchaos454]

"automatic calculation in your head" Damn Arty that was kind of a burn. No I don't "automatically calculate the outcome" of positions! Some of us aren't gaming prodigies like you and need to consciously calculate this shit. Also I think the word you are looking for is 'intuition' or 'reflex' (maybe 'default mode network').

[@Larsgman]

I think the supply block played the biggest factor. Not only do you blow up 100 minerals for him (IIRC), but halting unit production completely is far more crippling than Arty might be willing to admit.

[@johnmichaelreyes2587]

Hey Arty, it’s called fast thinking or a heuristic, that is where intuition falls under. You can look up works of Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky on this topic.

[@garrettwilson4754]

I wonder if you could slip one more turret behind the mineral line to defend more effectively

[@telepromptsigh]

For 2 games so similar you could do a back-n-forth analysis where you comment 3-4 minutes of each game then switch. With special focus on the diverging points. Might be a lot of editing work, but I'd watch it.

[@scottc9151]

I would give my life to have Arto+Tasteless cast the ASL S6 Finals

[@skyvipers]

@ 5:40 - It's called "wisdom" (mental-memory 😁)

[@susugam3004]

nah, intuition.

[@tellumyort]

My hope is that this extends to a best of 100 series.

[@Jaces87]

If he goes 7racks then that allows him to be able to add even more turrets which would ultimately punish doing a muta drive-by. From there terran just have to pile up its army and push before lurker. Thought?

[@qwertyb18]

@5:40 you're describing a "routine"

[@Plexzor]

the previous game bishop managed to supply block zelot a couple of times. might have also have been one of the reasons he managed to supply block zelot at a crucial time last game.

[@johnnyboy3563]

New chills unlocked - Brain Rejiggering!

[@SkProductions56]

5:20. Intuition is probably the word to describe what you're talking about.

[@ozar_midrashim]

And here we can see why mass Mutalisk was such a winning strategy in Original versus the Terrans. Even with Medics added, Terran eventually needs Science Vessels to eliminate the Muta threat, let alone fight Mutalisks + Lurkers. It's so annoying that the outcome of this matchup hinges on who better controls their caster units.

[@drgnearth]

I’d say “instinct,” or if you’re being technical “learned instinct,” or for a less formal term, “game sense”

[@beebeebaszz8840]

I think they just cooperate with each other. They definitely try new metas on purpose to stay ahead of strategy combinations. That's what I would do to stay ahead of competition. Those games could be also played to confuse the opponents into thinking new metal are developed. In fact it might be two friends having fun and using it as a strategy towards bigger combinations. Have fun with StarCraft always :)

[@TheBryceWade]

Bro. BUNKER AT NATURAL. EVERY TIME. Terrans, WHY NO BUNKER?

[@ArtosisCasts]

Yeah there’s some serious truth to this lol

[@cirno66]

I'd just borrow "knowing your opening" from chess if I needed a technical term. In chess, you never want to calculate during the opening phase, you just want to remember what you've prepared. The same would go for the first few minutes of StarCraft.

[@ScootsMcPoot]

This depends if you're white or black. Variations of openings is what makes your game improve. You'll never beat gms using pure theory openings.

[@timesathousand]

The phrase you want is "Snap Judgement"

[@michaelcallisto]

I still remember in SC2 WoL when TLO went like 12 rax's and just pumped marines for days and crushed absolutely everybody. Good times...

[@magne6049]

5:07 the term you are looking for is: intuition.

[@Alvesinater]

I think the term is "Game Awareness" For example: Artosis has such good game awareness in real life that he can trick me into commenting on a video for that sweet sweet algorithm

[@amotanly269]

5:50 i believe the term you are looking for is heuristics, used in AI and studies about "understanding" a situation out of context quickly