Ashes of Creation PvX DRAMA | Lloyd and Virtek attempt to discuss nuance

With a lot of people taking a PvP stance or a PvE stance, Lloyd reacts to Nyce's HOT TAKE video and pulls Virtek from The Golden Feather Tavern from chat to discuss this hot topic. From there they discuss many different systems within Ashes of Creation and try to come up with reasonable solutions for the PvE community.
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[@dimitraeon6876]

Initially I didn't think it was a big deal and thought the PvE side of PvX was fine but I think I'm starting to agree with Virtek on this. PvE does need to have *some* degree of meaningful progression loops. The point he's making I think is that in PvX, the pvp side of the equation can always effect the pve side but never visa versa. I think some kind of solution could be having the instanced portion of PvE actually be difficult *and* rewarding BUT be limited as far as how much you can farm it (daily/weekly loot limit) to preserve the overall balance of Risk vs Reward (you can't create instanced safe spaces for infinite progression separate from the open world and not destroy risk v reward).

[@djvirtek]

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I'm talking about. PVE combat at end game needs to have something meaningful that can't be destroyed by PVP actions, as there is no counter for PVE actions to destroy PVP. No tangible and satisfying activities announced for PVE players to take part in besides open world bosses at risk of being overrun by PVP players and exp debt to gain from every failure. Exp debt reduces your combat effectiveness, btw. Exp Debt is removed in organized PVP, but not "organized" PVE that can be spoiled by PVP intervention. I'm just asking for balance, not preferential treatment, ya know? =) Even if it's just some leaderboards, cosmetics, titles, and achievements to track how great your group did in an instanced PVE raid with zero loot drops that provide actual income to imbalance the world's economy...that would be hugely satisfying to me. I would prefer loot drops, of course, but would be PERFECTLY happy if there were just the cosmetic and social rewards alone.

[@yungsofa8084]

by the way i totally understand raiding or even mythic plus dungeons being chill and calm to do but i also feel like we can let the artisan stuff be our chill and calm thing to do in this game

[@yungsofa8084]

somewhere around 30:00 he talks about pve players fighting a dragon and then using it for a seige. new world has this in opr. you kill mobs they drop essence and you spend that on summoning monsters and etc. if thats what pve players need then thats an easy fix. having seperate gear for pve and pvp is a bad idea and divides the players more. you should have system that need human players not systems that need pvp only players or pve only players.

[@davidsumpter4933]

Hopefully, PvX can be regulated by the penalty.

[@dimitraeon6876]

@28:10 I personally DONT like the idea of segregated gear sets (pvp exlusive stats, pve exclusive stats). Not in a game thats looking to blend into PvX and be a "sandpark". Something about it feels so gamey. That being said, pve should still have a portion of it be difficult and rewarding (without the possibility of pvp trampling it) via weekly/daily loot limits but farmable cosmetics, titles, mounts, etc for the "real" pve players.

[@LlewdLloyd]

Yeah I hate the idea haha. I dont think it's a good solution even if it does "solve" the problem.

[@djvirtek]

LMAO I put the idea out there, and even I hate myself for doing it. I really don't like the idea, but I'm kinda just...throwing stuff at a wall to see what sticks.

[@yungsofa8084]

i never understood people that only like one. if you dont like pvp and pve which is pvx then maybe ashes isnt your kind of game and thats okay. when i saw ashes back in 2017 i never thought o man this looks like a really good pve only game.

[@LlewdLloyd]

I really appreciate you taking the time to listen and bring up your thoughts along the way

[@djvirtek]

Very valid position. Personally, I'm all about the PVX life, as long as elder game PVE combat has a place in it that matches PVP combat's capabilities, impact, and opportunities. Otherwise, it's a PVP game with PVE feeders. Not the same as PVX, in my mind. The system needs to feel cohesive, where it all works together and both styles of play have actual desire behind them. If either is just "going through the motions" because they have to for the game to survive, I don't think it's engaging enough.

[@Mk-qv9ie]

The idea of having pve instances tied to pvp is a no go for me, I’m not trying to be in a castle,node, or any other form of siege that gives the enemies an advantage just because they killed an enemy designed to lose. I get wanting the pve player base to feel involved but I’ve never liked the idea of pve interfering with a PvP event. Especially any that would potentially give the enemy a buff for doing so or being a win condition. If it’s something set up like new worlds opr were an events pops up and you can compete for the advantage that’s better imo but even that I didn’t like. Definitely not for the idea of needing set gears it gets tedious to constantly sort all that. Figure a way to balance one set for both forms of content imo.

[@LlewdLloyd]

I definitely see that! I do think PvE is loosely based definition when we're talking about Node Sieges and things. Like yes, it's an enemy designed to lose to give your team a boost. But that's no different than objective like Dragon or Baron in League of Legends and can create some of the most interesting fights. Outside of that, I definitely agree with you.

[@Mk-qv9ie]

@@LlewdLloydyeah I agree, it’s more bearable when it’s an event you compete for, brings another level of engagement to the game. As long as it’s set like that it’s tolerable. I do hope ashes can find balance with the PVX. With mmos PvP is definitely on the niche side of things so without the pve kids we won’t have a long lasting game. I like doing both my self so ashes is an ideal game for me in the mmo space. Hope to see it succeed for years to come.

[@yungsofa8084]

21:00 he thinks the game will die if we dont have pve people but the game will die if you we dont have pvx people. if we dont have those people then the economy is dead. nodes are dead. no node wars. no seiges. no guild wars. im just curios what system does ashes of creation have that we so desperately need a ton pve players at all times to keep the world alive and functioning.

[@LlewdLloyd]

I personally just think Ashes of Creation just needs PEOPLE. Regardless of what they enjoy. Some coming up with solutions that make people happy without devaluing what Ashes is, is the main goal.

[@yungsofa8084]

@@LlewdLloyd im a dumbass i just read my last part and figured out why maybe pve players feel undervalued. pve players arent really needed and dont really have a big impact on the world around us and tbh im now getting where hes coming from. anyways great video and debate. im a little exhausted when it comes to the topic cause ive been hearing this debate for 15 years now so i might come off a little bit hot but im sure there is def a solution to this that the great minds at ashes can come up with and i hope they do especially given that there are alot of players who probably can only enjoy pve. but all i ask is dont dumb down pvx systems just to make pve players happy. make sure the systems are smooth and interact with each other well and compliment each other well.

[@yungsofa8084]

by the way pvper are always neglected in mmos. look at new world. you had to pve the whole way to level up and gear and you couldnt do opr until you were max level and that was suppose to be a pvp game. pve people always get to level up and gear doing pve only content. i think the issue is pve get it there way so much that they dont actually know what it really means to be neglected