Ashes: Reborn Review - Mana Screw Begone!

[@lukeroberts3161]

Great review! I appreciate the extra focus you guys give to asking 'who might this be for'

[@dasenzai5090]

This is the best review I have ever seen. Great work.

[@Shelfside]

hey thanks man! Appreciate it :) -Ashton

[@Cyiel568]

The Noah part seems a bit weird. Wolves can be summoned as a side action which means you can attack after summoning one. Spiders are summoned trough a reaction spell you can actually trigger by using small sacrifice (killing one of your own exhausted unit to kill something on your oppenent board then summon the spiders trough their reaction spell). He got a draw spell. So it's not weak as a starter deck. He has a strong start and need to change from damage to exhaust enemy units with small sacrifice instead. So you go from being very aggressive early game to a more control type in late game (exhaust a weak unit to exhaust a big enemy one with small sacrifice).

[@Muhd_Akmal]

The i go, you go action system really makes this game different from other card game imo. There's so much tension just thinking what your opponent can do and how to counter them. Not to mention you get to choose your first 5 cards at the start and get 10 mana every round! You feel like a freaking god in this game!

[@Shelfside]

its awesome right! Can't wait for an actual tournament of this. The tension is super unreal and continually keeps me hooked, and the card draw never feels unfair! -Ashton

[@wendol922]

Very helpful review. Would love to see you review the Flesh and Blood TCG as a potential new lifestyle card game.

[@PsychicLord]

Agreed, this card game is heading for the top three.

[@jobodumb]

As a solo gamer (lol) I've held off on this game, though its always seemed pretty cool. They are releasing a PVE expansion next month so I think I'm finally going to dive into this game. You guys should check it out! Its called Red Rain.

[@ashtonwu7760]

review coming :D

[@JoeTsotsos]

Nice review! However, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall you pointing out that one of the major differences for Ashes vs MTG is no pack RNG! I CANNOT handle the slot machine that is most CCGs of its kind. When you buy additional content for Ashes, you KNOW what you're spending your money on.

[@Shelfside]

you're correct! It does follow the format of a lot of similar Living card games, like Android Netrunner, Arkham Horror LCG, etc. Should end up saving people some money compared to MTG for sure -Ashton

[@박찬우-q5m]

I'm like 90% Johnny, so this seems like a game for me! Great review!

[@hoangminhtran1100]

3:44 Fernanda Suarez illustrated some of the first waves, but she left in 2017. Then, Plaid Hat hired many other artist to do the job.

[@Shelfside]

sweet! Yeah remember seeing her name plastered on a bunch of the artist creds -Ashton

[@sedlak87]

1:58 That is not really because of legality reasons. You can have multiple exhaustion tokens on the card and only one gets removed at the end of the round.

[@Shelfside]

that is true actually! A great nuance of the game, you can have multiple exhaustion tokens, and then use cards like Moeni's to take them all off. -Ashton

[@sedlak87]

@@Shelfside You can "tap" your hero to defend for your allies once per round.

[@stevekaylor7089]

Amazing review. My only concern with the Timmy/Spike/Johnny framework is that they are specifically intended for MTG, not card gaming in general. For example, FFG had an article about different kinds of players in the LotR game, and they would prioritize winning, story, and theme (Boromir/bilbo/pippin) rather than the combo/consistent/win focuses. Ashes also i think has a different mindset when playing. Yes, some people will want to just win no matter what, others will try to find the deck building combos that give fun payoffs or big swings (mist spirit+small sacrifice+summon widows for huge board state gain), and still others will prioritize playing to a style, such as swarm, beefy, and reactionary spells. And the dice all accommodate these differently. Long story short; i dont think timmy/spike/johnny is a bad place to start, but they are definitely more for a MtG style mindset, so it doesnt surprise me that one of them doesnt feel represented here; its a different game with different goals in gameplay.

[@Shelfside]

hey thanks for sharing this! Was a good read. Will have to incorporate these ideas into a future vid -Ashton

[@pubbles3229]

I am really shocked that you can choose your starting hand. Never saw this and never thought about it. Sounds cool tho

[@boryssobieski7096]

It's great because you (and your oponent) can start your strategy straight away. Another great thing is you can discard a card from your hand or top of your deck to change side of your die to one you want. You discard two cards you modify 2 dices so even after bad dice roll you are not doomed 😉

[@bernardorippe7024]

Is great becuase you create a deck with a clear strategy around ... Removal? Play tall? Milling? Direct damage? Clog? this game has a huge amount of archetypes and let you build decks that are hybrid.

[@damenwood3670]

This is my favorite game of all time, and has been since about 2019! It rules!

[@sedlak87]

6:56 You don't have to include 2 colors of dice in the deck. You can just use one color.

[@Shelfside]

oh wow that's super cool! Ok did not know that TIL -Ashton

[@sedlak87]

@@Shelfside I recommend checking out Team Covenant videos, if you are looking for other resources. kzbin.info/www/bejne/kHechoaNhq-qnac

[@reafdfsagassg]

... or you can run a deck with all 4 (to 7 if you have all the deluxe expansions) if you want.

[@tzera_rhuon]

@@Shelfside It's common to include one nature die just to have access to the 1damage ping, or a ceremonial die for recursion if your deck is heavy with allies.

[@paulchaisson8301]

@@reafdfsagassg I'm actually upset there aren't 10 dice, so you can live dangerously with one of each.

[@adamdenzinger576]

Now I wanna play this game again, thank you!!

[@Micromation]

I have it for years now but noone to play with :(

[@ProfessorWaifu]

1:55 Actually the legality isn't the sideways turn of the card, legality is the term "tapping". The reason they use the token is because cards can put more than one token on a card, but you only ever get to remove one per round.

[@laichunyin210]

Great Review! No worries, i dive into this Ashes all-in after 3 games

[@Shelfside]

Awesome! Yeah the game is freaking fantastic, just wish had more time to play this here! -Ashton

[@ascended8174]

Really nice review except for a couple of things in the Cons section The core deck was made to actually be a starter drafting set from the get go for roughly 2 people. Meaning while they made preset decks to use, they are not meant to stay that way long once you get grips with the gameplay loop, you are encouraged to make your own. So while Noah Redmoon's deck on it's own is slightly underpowered, some of his cards can actually make a Swarm build very easy Next, the length of the game in terms of time will definitely be longer when you start out, but that kinda applies to most if not all games of this style. Obviously once you understand the mechanics and start learning everything, the gameplay will become second nature. Marking the game length as a con of the game doesn't feel right since it's more dependent on the player's experience with the game, which applies to most games anyway

[@Shelfside]

hey, thanks for the feedback! I've actually been playing a LOT of ashes after this review, and agree with your points. We have gotten the length of the game down a bit, especially with specific decks (like Coal). The whole 'starter set decks' being unbalanced is just something that hurts the 'right out of box' experience, which is something I wanted to warn people about. Is not really a true con in the macro sense of Ashes, and is why I didn't give a "recommender score" to the game, because it felt really weird to judge an entire card game based off of starter deck plays. Hope this cleared things up! -Ashton

[@deepdivemusicreactions]

very good review. I played it for the first time yesterday, and you tick all the boxes I noticed as well

[@Shelfside]

Awesome! Yeah the game holds up over a long period of time, I still want to play it! -Ashton

[@ProfessorWaifu]

I love how the only con is the pre-cons

[@IslanKleinknecht]

Have you guys ever looked at Mage Wars Arena?

[@patrickpmcbride]

Very fair and measured review! Do you guys have a PO box? Would be happy to send some expansion decks your way to help fill that raging card game void.

[@Shelfside]

hey! shoot us an email at [e-mail] for it! -Ashton

[@weeschwee]

Great video! Very informative and entertaining.

[@Shelfside]

Cheers! Glad ya got something out of it, can't wait to play this over the holidays -Ashton

[@frankle9617]

can we have a marvel champions review? :P

[@hoangminhtran1100]

17:51 There are, but those cards are in the expansions (except for Summon Sleeping Widows)

[@Shelfside]

awesome to know! Need to play more expansions :) -Ashton

[@Sunderved23]

You guys should totally do a Summoner Wars 2nd Edition video!

[@Shelfside]

I've considered it for sure, I liked the online gameplay but never made the jump into playing more! Will think more on it -Ashton

[@Possi_ball]

Well, I used to think the same about MtG, after who knows how many mana screws-floods in casual and tournament play. When Hearthstone came out with the "get one "land" each turn for sure" thing, I thought that this MtG should be like and that random MtG-land system is crap and killed by Hearthstone. But after playing some Hearthstone I realized that this system is even worse! Yes, luck plays a big role in MtG, but it can screw your opponent too. In Hearthstone, there is no way your opponent won't get his "10 lands" and then cast like crazy, when in MtG maybe you got screwed at first and the game seemed lost, but your enemy drew 3 lands on a row and in reality he just lost three turns, as he already had the mana he needed. But you don't know that and he can poker face you until he gets more cards, while you're making bad choices, overwhelmed by your bad start. In Hearthstone your opponent will ALWAYS draw cards and not lands and that's so boring and predictable, that in the end I quited the game and went back to MtG. That's the whole point with no-land card games, as you can get screwed on your start, your opponent can get screwed mid or late game with cards they don't need (and decks are 60 cards for that reason) and you always have a chance. Same thing can happen to you too, of course. So, yeah, the land system maybe is outdated, but that is what makes MtG so addictive, it's basically gambling! And gambling was never meant to be fair, I'm afraid.

[@Shelfside]

well said! Something I've always liked about MTG is that you can bluff with the bad draws, and that raises the skill cap a fair degree in competitive play. People especially get frustrated with the mana-screwing when they play against fast decks too. I do wanna stress how the mana system in Ashes is kind of the opposite of Hearthstone/MTG in that you get all 10 mana in your very first turn! Then, with that there's less gambling with draws (decks are also only 30 cards), making the focus on Ashes more on tempo, and less on hand advantage. Cheers man! -Ashton

[@alexcannobbio710]

Quick question, your channel started only over a year ago?

[@Shelfside]

almost at that 2 year mark man! Time flies ahaha. -Ashton

[@alexcannobbio710]

@@Shelfside congratulations! Your videos are very informative and high quality content. Yesterday I wanted to check your older videos because I have only seen ones made during the Pandemic period, and I scrolled down to find that your channel was relatively new. I was surprised because based on your videos I assumed you had many years of experience, your videos have been a great help to decide which games to buy (TI4) or sell (BSG), I feel like they tend to be less biased, while also including your personal opinion in it, great work!

[@Shelfside]

@@alexcannobbio710 awesome to hear that! We've been playing games for a very long time, glad to hear that the experience of playing all of these games pulled through. See ya around! -Ashton

[@jupiterloner999]

Would you like to try Mage Wars Academy? I'm curious about that... That's also another game struggling with different issue ever since...

[@mike9139]

YOU ARE AWESOME! ❤❤❤

[@Dratio]

I'm curious what you might think of the Solo/coop red rains expac.

[@Shelfside]

Review is on the way :D -Ashton

[@Sunderved23]

@@Shelfside would also be really interested in hearing how your thoughts of the system as a whole have changed since 🙂

[@Shelfside]

@@Sunderved23 haha will do :) -Ashton

[@zantrex4]

Agreed on the pros/cons here. The biggest draw for me was the decreased RNG. The biggest drawback is the lack-luster pacing and VERY basic "combos." The game feels very rigid and on-rails. I'll take MTG and Netrunner RNG over the Ashes "stiff" gameplay any day of the week, personally.

[@vipergecko03]

By far my favorite card game

[@Shelfside]

super satisfying to play as well for me! Other TCGs kind of feel... 'junk food-y' in comparison if that makes sense. Onwards to more gaming! -Ashton

[@vipergecko03]

@@Shelfside did you end up getting all the expansions for this?

[@QKlilx]

Can anyone explain to me why this game uses dice? With all the mitigation mentioned in the review and the escalating power of each symbol (the strongest is effectively a wild, etc), it sort of feels like the game could have just given each player 10 mana per round and let them go to town. Are there dice mechanics not discussed or shown in the review?

[@Shelfside]

The only actual dice rolling I can remember is rolling at the start of round. That way, there is some randomization of what you'll get each round, then you mitigate from there. -Ashton

[@heroicskeleton1566]

Each die has 3 different symbols on it. The common face on 3 sides, uncommon on 2, and rare on only 1 side. This adds a lot more nuance than just having 10 mana. If a card requires a rare symbol, that's something you have to consider. It's like that card costs more, in a way. So if your deck has a lot of the frog symbols (rare nature) but few bull symbols (rare ceremonial), you may want to include more nature dice. Maybe 6 to 4 for instance. Also, I think it does add a bit of luck and excitement back into the game

[@Houndf]

Hey Ashton. Do you still play? I've had the game for over a year out and bring it out every now and then. I saw they will be releasing three new decks soon. I'd also like to try drafting with this.

[@Shelfside]

I don't have a lot of time to play, but its really up on my list for a 2 player game! I have a couple more expansions now too -Ashton

[@UndecidedCryptid]

Don’t forget you can play blood puppets on your opponents.

[@Shelfside]

yep! It just struck me as specifically tricky to use for first time players, especially if they didn't have experience with competitive card games. -Ashton

[@sedlak87]

15:35 , well pre-built decks are just there to try the game. You should build your own decks if you want balance :) I would argue that is not really a con of the deck customization game.

[@IslanKleinknecht]

but just how much customization do we have so far?

[@sedlak87]

@@IslanKleinknecht what do you mean?

[@tzera_rhuon]

@@IslanKleinknecht With just the master set there is a fair bit of deckbuilding possible. If you are asking about additional products, there are 21 Phoenixborn in the game: 6 in the master set, 3 deluxe boxes with new decks and dice types (Divine, Sympathy and Time, 20-25$ each) and the rest are stand-alone decks for 10-15$ each. Ashes(.live) has a database of the cards in each product, so if you play the master set decks and have a preference for certain spell types you can prioritise just purchasing the decks that offer support.

[@kelliealanis9485]

which is better? summoner wars or this?

[@Shelfside]

I like Ashes more, but have only played SW online so I don't think I'm the most qualified to compare... yet :) -ashton

[@kelliealanis9485]

@@Shelfside may i know why Ashes seems better than summoner wars?

[@Shelfside]

@@kelliealanis9485 these are just my personal tastes of course- but I think Summoner wars has a tad too much dice rolling for me. But have been playing it more recently and have been impressed! So we will see -Ashton

[@kelliealanis9485]

@@Shelfside thanks.. i have summoner wars and lots of expansions already and I'm loving it. do you recommend Ashe's Reborn? is it different and offers unique gameplay for me to try?

[@PennStateGator416]

Have you tried the PvE expansion that just came out?

[@Shelfside]

yep, review is almost done! -ashton

[@ProfessorWaifu]

Actually You can have more than two colors, the limit is just the 10 dice pool

[@Shelfside]

good correction! Cheers :) -Ashton

[@DeMaximVB]

Iron Rhino and Silver Snake are prime Timmy cards.

[@Shelfside]

They definitely lean more towards the timmy 'big hitters' side, but the Iron Rhino actually didn't seem like a very good win con in our experience because of how expensive it was. When playing it, you could get punished extremely hard off of the dice use. The silver snake also needs a lot of planning to have it survive with decent attack points, which tends to make it less casual based. Hope this helped! -Ashton

[@tzera_rhuon]

@@Shelfside Oddly enough, the Iron Rhino is absolutely terrifying once it hits the board and is supported with spells that quickly focus its conjuration or can make use of the rhino when it's locked-down (I always considerd it a good card with Maeoni since she can toss it at enemies even if it's exhausted). Team Covenant's stream has had a fun rollercoaster of spending months trying to find a build that makes the Rhino viable, now they're spending months trying to find ways to defeat it 😅

[@Shelfside]

@@tzera_rhuon dang that's awesome to hear! Well looks like I need to look into getting more packs for the deckbuilding :D -Ashton

[@hoangminhtran1100]

You miss out Blue Jaguar+Massive Growth combo

[@sirhc8927]

I find 1v1 games (usually card games) boring but unlike magic it sounds like this is not based on lucky purchases?

[@Shelfside]

yep! It just follows the LCG model where you buy one box, and you get all the cards featured there. This definitely plays a lot slower than magic in terms of time length, but way more decisionmaking to do, yet I would argue its not as heavy as Rising Sun :) -Ashton

[@tzera_rhuon]

@@Shelfside Ashes has often been likened to a game of chess within the community, which is a good mindset to have when approaching the game, as it prepares you for the tempo, depth of decision-making, and game length you are likely to encounter. Your First-5, and thus your first round, is very akin to a chess opening as it has a huge impact on how the mid/end game develop.

[@Shelfside]

@@tzera_rhuon well said! The combination of chess-like thinking with the card game model really knocks it out of the park for me. The mind games with mana and reaction spells make it consistently tense. Never had had a bad game outside of Noah precon :) -Ashton

[@tzera_rhuon]

@@Shelfside oh poor Noah. Out of 21 Phoenixborn he's the only one I routinely forget even exists 😂 I've heard it said his deck is more a collection of cards they wanted in the master set more than a coherent deck to play.

[@timd4524]

Looks interesting. Quick kills in MTG are the goal according to Richard Garfield. Everyone always wants to get their pretty cards on the table which is a mistake. By the way. I've got my own book in the Bible. For a gen that hates labels, you've got the most.

[@bernardorippe7024]

In Ashes: Reborn Noah is not that bad.... I think?

[@KamenRiderGreed]

If you're looking for a new Lifestyle Cardgame. Might I recommend Cardfight Vanguard? Ever since Overdress came out, rebooting the game, its a great time to get into it.

[@SeanUCF]

This was one of the first 1v1 card games I got when I first got into the hobby and I had every expansion and loved it. Since then I've played Codex, Exceed, Battlecon, Kamigami, VS System 2PCG, Epic Card Game, Pixel Tactics (specifically the Megaman version) etc. and when I came back to it just before Ashes 2.0 I realized that the cards in this game are WORDY AF. It bogs the game waaaay down. And as you mentioned the pre-builts aren't balanced at all. Not sure why I didn't notice the imbalance that much before since I never bothered with the deck construction. I will say the art work is some of the best I've ever seen and the mechanics are pretty decent (better than MTG IMO) but I don't have time to sort through hundreds of cards to construct that perfect deck so I decided to take a pass on the relaunch of this game.

[@tzera_rhuon]

The reboot streamlines a lot of the game text and some mechanics. If you still have your old collection you would only need to purchase the 'upgrade kit' (25$ or less) to bring everything up-to-date.

[@SeanUCF]

@@tzera_rhuon Yeah I've thought about it, but I have so many other great head to head games now, I'm not sure if I'd find the time for it. I may still give it another chance one day.

[@Kain652]

You should really just take the plunge and get the upgrade kit. Who knows how long it'll be available and someday you might regret not getting it.

[@hoangminhtran1100]

It can feel a bit off because Ashes have less swing than other card game. Also, the mental upkeep task can be daunting. Side note: Plaid Hat games have posted some reconstructed precon in their website. These are more balanced but you need 1.5 cards and a lot of proxies

[@SeanUCF]

@@hoangminhtran1100 Cool, thanks I didn't know they have new precons. I'll have to check it out

[@mistuhbear]

Who's this Timmy fellow - hmmmmm

[@akrasner19]

This seems like Legends of Runeterra but IRL

[@Shelfside]

Don't know much about that game, but I'll have to check it out as a League fan here! I will say that modifying the dice mana faces IRL is very satisfying -Ashton

[@charleswebb1674]

just play Codex

[@kkyeung2050]

Difficult to buy

[@haydendely5247]

First

[@SpoonyBard88]

I can't believe they kept the lifeless, contextless, amateur-hour art...

[@stevekaylor7089]

This game has been, and still is, consistently and widely praised for its wonderful artwork and gorgeous card design. Not sure what you're on about, but I'm afraid you're in the minority about it.

[@kaljakad]

"consistency, dice" ._.

[@sedlak87]

?

[@kaljakad]

@@sedlak87 0:10

[@sedlak87]

@@kaljakad there is so much randomness mitigation I wouldn't even bother

[@Shelfside]

that's the beauty of the design, surprisingly -Ashton

[@tzera_rhuon]

You can always meditate unwanted cards to change dice to your preferred side, as well as there being a few spells in the master set that can change multiple dice at once (the Maeoni deck has 'Call Upon the Realms' which changes 3; Aradel has 'Shifting Mist' which changes 2 and stays in your spellboard for future rounds; Saria has 'Hidden Power' which changes 5 and draws a card). Part of deck-building consideration would be to have access to some cards that only require 'basic' rolls to play.

[@taserrr]

So they moved the mana screw and top deck RNG to dice roll RNG....

[@Shelfside]

hey there! I've been playing a little more Ashes after this review, which is actually pretty unusual since I don't get to play games much after reviewing them. The dice rolling DOES grant some RNG, more specifically at the beginning of turns where it can save you an extra side action of 'meditating', and potentially decking yourself out faster. But I've found that the dice rolling almost always feels fair, and if you really want to, which I didn't mention in the review, you can carry over your unspent dice results from one round to the next. Hope this helped! Holy wall of text just got shot your way, ahaha I just like this game a lot -Ashton

[@Ismael-995]