Abigail Thorn Has a (S)existential Crisis | WHGS Ep. 251 | Full Episode

[@xanthe6021]

Babe wake up your three fave content creators just dropped a podcast together

[@CreativeMindsAudio]

The collab i didn’t expect to see but I’m glad i did!

[@sha2424]

FANTASTIC episode! my faves are the ones where im introduced to someone new and they not only have interesting things to say but say them so confidently. didn't expect to see a non comedian have so many great one liners too!!! she's so funny!!!

[@ashgavs]

i find actors tend to be sooo funny, and she's also an actor so possibly that!

[@hollyweasel2210]

“If you don’t know what Missouri is, don’t worry about it”. I feel like Mac would even agree

[@itchy7879]

Maddie's gender rambles are v helpful for me as someone who has had a similarly fickle experience with labels. Abigail was also a lovely guest! One of my recent faves for sure

[@ultraviolene]

woohoooo what a fire guest!

[@beardlessdragon]

48:04 What Maddie talked about here really resonated with me. I am an afab agender person who was always extremely tomboyish and felt no connection to femininity at all. Now that I have gotten top surgery and totally changed my hairstyle from the super long curly hair I used to have, I look very androgynous and I'm often assumed to be male when I'm out and about. Now that that's the case, I find it more fun and sometimes even affirming to present a little bit femme. The new context of fully embracing my lack of gender and living it every day makes feminine stuff feel less gender dysphoric. It's really interesting

[@Amaling]

Yeah opposite and identical for me, basically as soon as I someone AMAB could be read more consistently as a woman I started to masculinize things like shorter haircut and binders and stuff. There is a threshold tho, like I do not ever want facial hair to be a part of that masculinization as it makes me feel dysphoric pretty consistently

[@josekiblisky]

LOVE Abigail!! her voice is so hot and she’s soo smart. and i relate sm to maddie here cause, same.

[@chrisbfreelance]

His fake voice?

[@josekiblisky]

@ what? who do you mean?

[@ruthielalastor2209]

Abigail and Maddie especially have great chemistry. Even Ashley made note of it.

[@LegallyLlama]

Is it wrong to say that we’d love to see Maddie and Abigail together IRL?

[@obliviate1953]

51:00 Maddie, thank you for that, love the thought process 💗

[@rachelbenn8161]

I totally relate to Maddie's thoughts on gender. I've always leaned more tomboy and have always felt more at home in my body when I'm doing something athletic/feel "powerful" or strong in my body (sports, hiking, camping etc.), things we tend to think of as more masculine. And I've come to the realization (for now) that I've never wanted to express "boy", but I've wanted to express things that are inherent to who I am as a person in a way that I just didn't see being expressed in other women. And that's strangely helped me feel more connected to my femininity. Anyways, great episode :)

[@MaeGal]

I’m only 17 minutes it, but I had no idea how laws around free speech (or lack there of) worked in the UK. Wow, crazy but good to learn.

[@mariannetfinches]

Yeah it's only been a year or 2 since we got those rights taken away. Come to think of it, it's kinda weird that Labour haven't restored it. Promised myself I wouldn't write to my MP more than once a week, but that's going on the list

[@MaeGal]

@ oh wow, I didn’t realize it was a recent change. That’s even more surprising.

[@mariannetfinches]

@@MaeGal yeah, the Tories got more & more fascist from Boris Johnson onwards. It's true we never had constitutional free speech, but the protest bans are very recent. Leaving the EU means our governments now have the freedom to remove a lot of rights that were previously guaranteed. Fun!

[@sestoeckl]

To call this my favorite WHGS episode is an understatement.

[@alex-lv6sb]

not the shady sophie mention lmaooo

[@someonesomehow379]

loved this episode

[@mariannetfinches]

31:27 i fr for a second had looked away & thought that was Alex 😂

[@emmabunch-benson4795]

Hell ya I’ve been following philosophy tube for years even before whgs

[@sanstreamed]

I love when two of my favourite things on youtube come together!

[@Black-Clad-Disaster]

I am SCREAMING oh my god, y'all just pulled off my favourite youtube crossover of all time 😭🖤✨️

[@naomigates6930]

A conversation I didn’t know I needed. LOVED this episode

[@kerukei1]

I am astonished about how informed I have become. I had no fucking idea. Following Abigail immediately. Thank you so much Ashley.

[@VTMADDIE]

The masculinity conversation is so real. As a trans tomboy, I like expressing masculinity but that doesn't make me a man or an enby.

[@dylanmaxey2531]

Love Abigail!!!!! Philosophy Tube is my learn something today channel. Wish Abigail had even more time to talk, of course I am a giant fan of her brain and insights. Personally I think a large segment of social media has made women think they must always dress and act for the male gaze, hence the tons of expensive make up, Botoxed to hell, 45 minute night time regiments, overtly revealing clothes not because it makes them feel truly themselves but due they want others to see them on this faux expectation of feminine beauty sold to us for profit. Once passing as a man and allowed within closed male groups I learned men in general are not impressed by that advertised beauty standard but they see it as "this woman wants to do it" look at how she is advertising herself.

[@chloe-fy4wc]

I really relate to what Maddie says about gender. For a long time I struggled with gender bc i loved looking androgynous, but disliled presenting as a “masc girl”. Something about it felt even more dysphoric than being hyper feminine. Being told i have tomboyish style made my skin boil even though it was a true statement. Then I felized I want to be seen as feminine masculine person and not as a masculine feminine person if that makes sense? I want to be able to present feminine and still be read as androgynous. Bc femininity is not the problem it’s womanhood. Btw Thank you for calling Abigail! She’s amazing love love love

[@M_M_ODonnell]

It sounds like we have some parallels in our experiences. I feel like I've gotten more comfortable with my own gender identity and expression (over the decades) the more I see and interact with people being comfortable in their _own_ gender identity and expression in all sorts of different configurations. I think it's important to embrace women who are less feminine and/or more masculine, and men who are less masculine and/or more feminine -- and the more space I saw for people in those gender-non-conforming identity spaces the more comfortable I was recognizing that I'm something else (non-binary), while wanting to make sure I'm not mistaken for rejecting GNC men and women.

[@someonesomehow379]

I love when ashley is attracted to an androgynous/fluid person that she herself gets flabbergasted by it 😭😭🤪

[@thedepthandbreadthofseth]

No Way!!! The Crossover I didn't know I've been dying for! ❤❤❤

[@yeahokay...actuallynah]

Abigail is so intellectually funny. Thanks for introducing me to her! Also I love the gender conversation. Very helpful...

[@someonesomehow379]

I love gender discussions!

[@chariark4145]

Yo we got philosophy tube and Ashley Gavin crossover before gta 6

[@diaz9rox]

this was such an awkward episode with some amazing people, you all navigated it very well! Would love for abigail to have gotten more screen time, she's such a favourite, love the dynamic in the end :)

[@JansmaIvy]

Omg..I’m clicking as fast as I can (that’s what she said 😏) what a great crossover of 2 of my favs on the ‘tube’! ❤ AND….I’m from the Netherlands too!🎉

[@stephben8042]

Abigail you’re a trooper. Extremely poised, even when that kept happening. Have never seen you before but you have my respect!

[@bekkoko]

Conversations like this about gender are so important!!

[@BF-up5xw]

I fully admit that I'm not a lawyer (I'm a philosopher); - and I don't think that the very wonderful Abigail Thorn is either. But I think that she has misrepresented the situation in UK law regarding free speech and libel/slander law. I don't think she said anything false, but I think she could have given a very false impression. (If you want to skip the details: get legal advice from a lawyer not a philosopher like me.) While it is true that it is easier for famous people to issue libel/slander cases in the UK compared to the US; it is not the case that it is any easier or harder for non-famous people. It also isn't true that we have no protections for freedom of expression in the UK. Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights applies in the UK and protects freedom of expression. Abigail is right that this is not UK law; at it is overseen by the European Court of Human Rights; but UK law establishes that these rights apply to us and that this Court has jurisdiction on these matters. However, some people on the right of the Conservative Party and probably Reform do want us to leave the ECHR which is easier to do than repealing the First Amendment would be in the US. As far as I know, there is a common distinction in libel law between claims of facts and statements of opinion. The latter is protected. So if I say 'The reason that there is so much distrust of and so little support for trans people in the UK is J K Rowling's activism on the subject' I could defend myself on the grounds that I was stating my opinion, not asserting false and defamatory facts. The same goes in the US, I believe. Whether that defence succeeds is a matter for the judge - or jury in a jury case. And note that this is civil not criminal law. It is no way criminal in the UK to assert such a claim unless I were to make the claim in a context in which it incited a crime. Such a context could be in a speech to an angry mob outside her house. (Incidentally, anti-trans sentiment in the UK does not begin and end with Rowling. She's not that important in my view; even if she is great at getting press attention due to her fame. But that's just, like, my opinion, man. I'm often wrong!) In the UK, we don't have an original, founding, written constitution. But we do have a de facto constitution in the form of enacted law and precedent. As members of the European Convention on Human Rights, we do now have a bill of rights that applies to us. With some exceptions (such as innocent until proven guilty - which is the right to freedom from arbitrary arrest and imprisonment/punishment), traditional law making in the UK was not focused on protected rights of any kind. Rather, if there is no law against it, then you have a right to do it. The move towards thinking in terms of rights in legislation, as opposed to political theory, is more recent. The police were criticised for arresting the anti-monarchy protestors near to the current King's coronation. While they did have the powers to do this, it is widely believed that misused those powers in this case as these demonstrators did not pose the kind of threat that would have justified the action. So it isn't clearly the case that the demonstrators didn't have the legal right to demonstrate under UK law. Indeed, while I'm a bit hazy about the laws here, I'm pretty sure that the police in this case acted unlawfully. But our laws in this respect aren't very clear and are very open to misuse/abuse.

[@delaneykeller1389]

Loved this episode! Great bits and conversation!

[@EmArilus]

1:03:42 My (mtf) girlfriend loves that podcast!! I knew I recognized Abigail from somewhere! It’s such a good podcast. This was an unexpected crossover episode I was pleasantly surprised to watch. I loved seeing her here.

[@heythere1115]

33:07 folks think they/theming everyone is being inclusive but really it can be misgendering. Not misgendering is more important than blanket inclusivity

[@bripk9598]

Oh god, I haven't even watched yet I just saw the guest and I'm we...excited. I'm excited.

[@theresamladinich3986]

Amazing guest and episode 🔥🔥🔥

[@obliviate1953]

This is my fav episode ever! ❤❤❤

[@goldenmomo85]

OMG!!! My two favorite content creators on the same screeeeeeeeeeen! Thank you Ashley!! OMG! OMG!!

[@sergbastian5]

Maddie idk if you'll read this but I had a similar journey with my mental health. After almost 20 years of journaling and persevorating on why I'm just "not like everyone else," at one point I just said fuck it-- I don't have to figure myself out. And then, ironically, it was easier to make decisions for myself AND feel less shame/stigma/doubts about just being me. Sometimes the only way out is through! Love you so much Maddie ❤

[@lisalove8532]

Abigail!!! Love her!! Maddie that intro 😏

[@wheretheart6375]

The amazement and horror in everyones eyes at "Germany should be Israël" lol

[@wen6519]

I love Abi and this was awesome 😭 I laughed so much 😭

[@ein1412]

of course maddie is a dan and phil fan (complimentary,,, me too)

[@violetaflorecita]

This was an amazing ep!!!

[@andrewbennett7178]

I enjoyed Abigail on the pod so much! Also, really thinking about the gender as noun v verb thing. It actually makes a lot of sense for me as an agender person because I make no effort to present any particular way, but end up looking like and getting perceived as the gender typically associated with my sex. But that's okay because my gender isn't what I am or look like, it's what I do and I'm *not* doing it. Cool.

[@itsmj3103]

THEEE ABIGAIL?? OMG Ashley thank you

[@Taurus_Butterfly]

Great episode! Enjoyed Abigail.

[@DabOrDieTryin710]

Can heavily relate to Ashley, as a cis queer woman who frequently rocks backwards hats, I don’t like being they/themed, have always been called a tomboy; I’m just me, unapologetically 🤷🏻‍♀️ Thank you Ashley for being so vulnerable, relatable, validating & articulating this experience so well; your words are empowering❤ Masc queer women for life 🙌🏻

[@starz_z_z9309]

love this episode, I just discovered philosophy tube around election time and now here she is on the we're having gay sex podcast

[@donmasters9601]

Centrifuge of snatch! LMAO. Great episode, I absolutely adore Abigail!

[@ThAlEdison]

25:13 So the music video for "Open Your Heart to Me" by Madonna has one of those

[@mhennessy8230]

Im genderqueer and use she/he prounouns. My masculinity and feminity are both such big parts of me and its really hard for me how people can't hold both of those at once. People tend to pick a gender for me and refuse to acknowledge this whole other side of me, even other trans people. Its as exhausting for me as being outright misgendered. I don't want people tiptoeing around things that are important to me because they've decided it doesn't fit with what they've decided i am.

[@dylanmaxey2531]

Similar with me, gender queer I see myself as both and neither but most strongly ID with my female side emotionally. mentally etc. Even too many in the queer community want a definite one or other binary choice. Ugh, I'm old and tired of spending a lifetime having to always identify myself gender, sexual, etc. Can't I just "be"?

[@kyrasaturn]

i assume the change in background is perhaps for the new interchangeable podcast set 👀👀👀

[@fortunatefruit]

11:55 to maddie: Ground News, not an ad lol

[@mariannetfinches]

Love ground news The opposite of an ad- I pay them 😅

[@chaz6724]

Maddie is really on to something - great ep!

[@mang_2197]

The way my jaw dropped in excitement when I saw this episode come up

[@lopez_wa]

So excited for this

[@sofiaisindie]

lovely episode❤

[@The_Brainsturgeon]

I see our Philosopher Queen, I click.

[@SkipTricks]

Wow I'm super early. We also don't technically have freedom of speech in Australia but it sounds like our laws are less crazy than the UK's - protesters can't be arrested for getting off the bus here! Generally speaking most regular people would only ever have to be concerned about defamation laws or the fact Nazis have a right to protest. Gross. Pretty sure comedy is safe here as it's protected under parody?

[@wizard-lizard]

Maddie's inside out gender stuff totally resonated with me, both in myself and with what I've seen with trans friends and online! I haven't really committed to any type of gender label beyond "not woman" myself, but I totally see the trend of people having transitioned to whatever they are in terms of identity and name and pronouns being able to experiment more freely with fashion in a way that might have felt uncomfortable or performative or restrictive when they were acting as their assigned gender at birth. I'm lucky that growing up afab in America in a Non-Religious environment. I've always been able to dress however I want without it getting many stairs, which I realize masc people have a lot fewer options for, but it's definitely taken a long time to sort out what femininity means to me. Even as someone with short hair since like 8th grade. I definitely still worry that when I dress more feminine I'm seen as "woman" rather than "myself in cool dress" or "fantasy heroine".

[@Noskopes]

All of my faves omg.

[@Lanagrant-s8p]

Omg the upgrade. Wasn't expecting

[@LilFeralGangrel]

Maddie basically recreated Bundism in the 21st century without realizing it and that's very funny to me as someone who is into 20th century political history.

[@Ricardo-fv2qi]

My pronouns are free/dom 😭😭

[@lavieenzen4]

In germany saying "from the river to the sea" is hate speech

[@ebmussel8478]

I really relate to everything Maddie said about gender, and for what it's worth, I do identify as gender queer. Sexuality queer, gender queer, just a big ol' queer in all ways 😅and for me, not having firm answers is part of the joy!

[@yoXneo]

Wow I love Abigail and to see her with Ash!! Aaah! 😁

[@Raddiebaddie]

I love house of the dragon, awesome that she was in it!!

[@hlc834]

I am immediately enamored with her! Such a good guest

[@alexandriatempest]

Gods and stones she looks so good.

[@brennam954]

What a crossover, holy shit!

[@Cleptrio]

Ashley, have you ever considered doing Cameos? My moms birthday is coming up, and she'd be ecstatic to get a birthday message!

[@graymatrrocks]

Now we have got to see Ashely on the Glue Factory Podcast and Kill James Bond!

[@smaug2396]

38:58 😮 omg this is meeee

[@Emily15200]

Sameeee

[@milliescient]

huuuuuge guest!!

[@helpfuliavids]

Aw that's so cute! I loved charlieisocoollike in my teens too!❤ Same thing about creators I've been watching coming out as queer is also happening with them coming out as neurodivergent 😂 I blame it on youtube being more attractive for queer and nd people that so many are coming out

[@Crissy_the_wonder]

On comedy, I don't think you have to go to an elite university to get ahead, things have improved there.

[@w0033944]

Interesting to hear from a biological POV that Abigail is stronger now.

[@Beefkibbles]

Is that what marvel fans felt when the avengers came out

[@88anza88]

come to vancouver bc! (i have text alerts)

[@emjoy36]

18:01 🤣

[@EternalDensity]

*googles to see if a particular cheese name exists* hmm interesting

[@punishedcrow]

i never clicked so fast

[@beethovenjunkie]

It's actually stupidly hard to get convicted for illegal/hate speech in Germany, as long as it's right-wing, and it's not as if the penalties are high. I guess it's great we have this reputation abroad but sadly..... Nope

[@EleanorBuck]

Well... It's time to watch House of the Dragon

[@notreallymyname8751]

Mr KZbin pls boost

[@ninjuhdelic]

So the consoler is Jordan’s Peterson

[@zerrrro]

I want to ask millenials to make a concerted effort to make 'dude' known as the gender neutral term it is supposed to be. As a californian, I've never used 'dude' gendered and has always been used in the 'Goodburger' sense. If you don't know what I mean, look up the Goodburger song and you'll see what I mean.

[@Sheltylass]

❤

[@esthermaples4456]

Fantastique 😘

[@rikaniebangbang]

Can you let Abigail talk even less? lol She's so awesome and smart, how can you not ask her more questions?

[@ashgavs]

@@rikaniebangbang it’s a conversational podcast done over zoom (lag). We encourage guests to interrupt and just hang out with us before we start rolling. It’s not an interview. Please go watch her channel if you only want her. Watch another podcast if you want an interview. Take care.

[@rikaniebangbang]

@@ashgavs I've actually watched and enjoyed a lot of episodes. Disappointed with this one, that's all.

[@ashgavs]

@@rikaniebangbang lol okay then i dont know what to tell ya. thanks for watching.

[@WaterandDustWalking]

This is bollocks - it is perfectly legal in the UK to say that transphobia is all JK Rowling's fault provided that is true. If you say something that damages someone's reputation and they sue you, telling the truth is an absolute defence. As for costs, if you win, the court will award them to you (i.e. the other side will pay) unless you have behaved disgracefully. As for the UK being transphobic, we can be visited by the police for a Non-Crime Hate Incident if we put something even allegedly transphobic on our social media. That stays on our record and - if anyone runs a background check on us - can affect our employment. Abigail Thorn is not being very truthful here!

[@tarab9081]

That's not what Abigail said. The fact is that it would be impossible to prove that "all transphobia in the UK is Joanne's fault" even if it were literally true. And in the UK you'd also have to prove that she's transphobic, you could not (as I understand it) rely on the fact that she routinely associates with hate groups and repeats easily disproved lies about transgender people in a transparent effort to harm them to "prove" that she's a bigot. In the US though the burden of proof is the other way around plus the laws around defamation of a public figure like Joanne mean that it's almost impossible for an average person to say anything that reaches the level of actual defamation.

[@nahadoth2087]

comment

[@maddie9602]

8:52 Jesus. I knew the UK doesn't have quite the free speech protections that we have in America, but that sounds ... medieval. Even the worst Republican politician wouldn't get away with something like that

[@thenork6269]

Is it just me or does Abigail sound like stolas from helluva boss?