ASUS ROG Harpe Ace EXTREME Mouse Review! SHOCKING

  Рет қаралды 35,801

boardzy

boardzy

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 200
@mikerzisu9508
@mikerzisu9508 2 ай бұрын
As much as I am a big asus fan, i have to say $250 for this is straight up robbery. The $500 azoth extreme is also ridiculous
@Xaero_ZRX-33
@Xaero_ZRX-33 2 ай бұрын
Zenaim keyboard it's even more cheaper than the azoth 😂
@boardzy
@boardzy 2 ай бұрын
Damn the ROG pfp isn't even sold
@mikerzisu9508
@mikerzisu9508 2 ай бұрын
@@boardzy nope. $250 is too high imo
@glashausAimz2
@glashausAimz2 2 ай бұрын
for 250 they should make the whole mouse out of carbon fiber... and 10 grams lighter.
@ASUSPRNorthAmerica
@ASUSPRNorthAmerica 2 ай бұрын
@@Xaero_ZRX-33 They are not similar products, we also offer the ROG FALCHION ACE HFX if you want rapid trigger and is 100 dollars less than the Zenaim. The Falchion Ace HFX will also offer dual USB-C, more onboard memory profiles, rapid trigger toggle, touchbar and custom actuation button for ease of realtime adjustment with no software and is also a multi layered gasket mount. The Azoth Extreme is a different product with a different user target and critically has a higher cost due to items like carbon fiber plate, metal frame which is process through 12 steps including sandblasting, anodizing and CNC machining. This does not count other items like tri mode connectivity, color oled touch screen, magnetic conical metal foot rests or a weighted metal silicone wrist rest. Maybe the most compelling item is the special dual mode actuation switch which works with the gasket mount/leaf spring to toggle riggidty on the fly from a firmer to bouncier feel without disassembly of the keyboard. Hope this provides some insights into our keyboards and their design, feature set and corresponding price points.
@Xaero_ZRX-33
@Xaero_ZRX-33 2 ай бұрын
Plastic on the sides for $250? 😂 Unacceptable
@goochipoochie
@goochipoochie 2 ай бұрын
No bro its BIO NYLON 😂😂😂😂
@Xaero_ZRX-33
@Xaero_ZRX-33 2 ай бұрын
​​@@goochipoochierecycled plastic bottles from the sea? 😂
@Reaperzx6
@Reaperzx6 2 ай бұрын
They do that for quality control reasons the mouse is 250$ because of the rnd and new manufacturing processes that go into making it and out of all the claimed to be carbon fiber mice this has the most pure blend others like the ulx are mainly made up of a high quality plastic asus knew when making this mouse not alot of people would buy it because of the price point this is mainly a for fun project for the team meant for enthusiast they technically made the first (real carbon fiber) mouse
@Xaero_ZRX-33
@Xaero_ZRX-33 2 ай бұрын
​@@Reaperzx6the first? 😂 I think you don't know about Zaunkoenig and Finalmouse ULX
@PowZii
@PowZii 2 ай бұрын
@@Xaero_ZRX-33did you even read his comment you egg
@denisruskin348
@denisruskin348 2 ай бұрын
250 and it´s not entirely made out of carbon fiber? Whatever Asus is smoking, I want it.
@45hotro
@45hotro 2 ай бұрын
And put it in a VAPVANA Screwball ball vape.
@ASUSPRNorthAmerica
@ASUSPRNorthAmerica 2 ай бұрын
The MK2 comapred in the video carries an over $300 dollar price point. Carbon Fiber is a premium expensive material that is difficult to ntegrate and requires complex processing. We wanted to offer an improvement in rigidity, /durability without introducing flex cuts or holes and also lower weight and accomplished this with a high quality standard of execution for the carbon fiber implementation. Please also note that implementing it you will need to use general base materials in coordination with the Carbon Fiber. With this noted we also want to balance total cost. To further integrate carbon fiber into more of the body would have added even more cost. We felt the current balance offers benefits while not also going into pricing of the MK2. Consider the wireless tech, extra skates, case, included polling rate booster etc. The bigger question would be if you would prefer to not have any additional items at the expense of those value points to pritoize only that value point ( carbon fiber ). Look forward to feedback you may want to share in this respect.
@denisruskin348
@denisruskin348 2 ай бұрын
@@ASUSPRNorthAmerica nice to hear from official support. Yeah, I don’t mind paying a premium for something that will last multiple years. I’m on a Superlight for 3 years and it looks like day one. The sides on your mouse look like they won’t be in a good shape after 2-3 years of use, from what I could observe from the competition or similar mice. Might be wrong but yeah, only time will tell. As for the others accessories, absolutely. Give me a super basic box, no skates or anything but a full body carbon fiber unit and I’ll dip at that price. Someone paying 250$ really has no issues doing 15$ extra after 2 years for new skates. This is a product that I would like to last…a long time, so a full CF body is the way in my opinion.
@IStratz
@IStratz 2 ай бұрын
@@ASUSPRNorthAmerica I think that with it being still in the 250 dollar price range and still having to compromise, you end up just not catering to any audience and it ends up just not matching up in any market. Going full carbon fiber one piece shell with larger side buttons, having a more intuitive button combo system (like having a lightweight LED system that displays what you are adjusting on the mouse kind of like what Vaxee does. Or a different kind of system like a separate screen on the dongle that displays adjustments) kind of like Pulsar's OLED screen on their eS series mice which I personally like a lot, but seems like a lot of people don't like it because of the weight balancing issues and added weight overall. I'd also change the shape of the PTFE skates on the top from triangles to something less geometric. It just looks tacky to me personally. Larger skates seem to be the most preferred (according to Razers testing with pros on the viper v3 pro). If you changed those few things to really make it the "halo" product, that could actually be a really great mouse. I also would love to see some different "dot" style skate materials included in the box and maybe a ROG branded sleeve for glass pads. You could include PTFE, hardened PTFE for glass, and even UHMW-PE skates for even more hardness for durability on glass. Having those things included in the box for around $300 USD and I honestly think it would have been perfectly fine as a "halo" product. Just my 2 cents. Also just FYI I think a lot of the enthusiast market prefers smaller mice. The length of this mouse is just honestly too big for most people. If you made something around the size of the X2 mini from Pulsar that would be a great middle ground. I like this direction of product though. It's almost there, but just not quite
@hankstorm3135
@hankstorm3135 2 ай бұрын
@@ASUSPRNorthAmerica individually this product may look like value. but there are 10000s of other mice on the market a buyer have to consider. this just doesn't provide value for money considering other options. i recently bought WL mouse beastX. at 40 grams with magnesium alloy body. for 130 euros! with a robust carrying case, skates, grips, a 1k and 8k dongle just like yours. these extra goodie bag stuff shouldn't even be considered in the value proposition by the seller... it should be standart... like a spare wheel in a car... how can i ever justify spending 250 euros on a 49 gram mouse with same or worse specs and compromises on material. now sure china is hard to compete with on this price. but you have to know they raised the bar in the middle and lower end so you in the high end have to step up your game to compete again.
@davido848
@davido848 2 ай бұрын
harpe ace mini might be in my top 3 mains since it’s basically the same shape as the viper mini
@boardzy
@boardzy 2 ай бұрын
I'm looking forward to that one
@Mystic_1452
@Mystic_1452 2 ай бұрын
waitt theyre making a mini? does it have a release date?
@davido848
@davido848 2 ай бұрын
@@Mystic_1452 yep on there main site and on amazon right now
@mrbrightside8752
@mrbrightside8752 2 ай бұрын
Yo what's good boardzy, it's youtube
@drdoubleU
@drdoubleU 2 ай бұрын
Yo what's good mrbrightside8752 , it's w
@boardzy
@boardzy 2 ай бұрын
@snoopdawgproductions
@snoopdawgproductions 2 ай бұрын
thank you for the helpful review boardzy!
@phosdrakon0721
@phosdrakon0721 2 ай бұрын
250 dolores really got me 😂
@zlibz4582
@zlibz4582 2 ай бұрын
mice so expensive should include a pair of extra skates , switches and scroll wheel encoder in the box so if user decides to replace them in future after they go bad can do it on their own in case the warranty is over !
@ASUSPRNorthAmerica
@ASUSPRNorthAmerica 2 ай бұрын
It includes three skates not covered in the review but two sets of PTFE and one corning gorilla glass set of skates. For the switches the optical switches are class leading with a MTBF rating of 100 million. The encoder is also a premium TTC Gold Scroll wheel encoder. With this noted we appreciate the feedback and keep in mind for the future but the inclusion present here are quite high alongside the mouse its self. We would also not we previously for years had hot swappable exclusive design allowing user to swap out their mouse switches with minimal community appreciation for this end user serviable/replaceable design.
@zlibz4582
@zlibz4582 2 ай бұрын
@@ASUSPRNorthAmerica wow 3 set of skates is impressive , hope other mouse companies include them in their premium segment
@michaelolsson4676
@michaelolsson4676 2 ай бұрын
According to the whale they are using 3395 and not 3950 @boardzy . That's also why you can't customize your Lod the same way similar to other 3950 mice. This is a 3395.
@boardzy
@boardzy 2 ай бұрын
Hmm I'll try to get confirmation on this, they claimed to have a higher performing sensor than the VMSE/Dav3 pro in an email but I guess that could be referring to artificially boosted DPI
@max10hoop
@max10hoop 2 ай бұрын
​@boardzy It's definitely referring to the higher DPI. Most Asus mice boast about having a better sensor because of the insane DPI
@ASUSPRNorthAmerica
@ASUSPRNorthAmerica 2 ай бұрын
This not correct -- 1. Sensor: The AimPoint Pro sensor in the Harpe Ace Extreme is based on the PixArt 3950 sensor, with some exclusive elements. Sensor deviation is below 1% beyond at all dpi settings. 2. Chipset: The mouse is using the Nordic nRF52840 chipset alongside our in house tuning and firmware optimization.
@JayDpwnz
@JayDpwnz 2 ай бұрын
I would love to see a review of the ace mini
@hwi7114
@hwi7114 2 ай бұрын
As someone who has large hands and uses a relax claw grip I do like the Harpe Ace shape quite a lot. However, I will stick to the normal one, no way I would pay $250 for it or any mouse for that matter.
@YurttheSilentChief1
@YurttheSilentChief1 2 ай бұрын
I feel like this mouse exists to bring attention to the cheaper model because this $250 model, to me, exists as an eye catching flagship model but nothing else. Think of it like the existence of the RTX 4090 that the majority of the market can't afford and people usually will opt to get the lower models just to be 65% of the way there. Though, there really isn't much of a performance gap between $250 and the cheaper model to warrant such a comparison.
@atSLASHY
@atSLASHY 2 ай бұрын
can you do a review on the harpe ace mini? There are literally zero reviews for it
@boardzy
@boardzy 2 ай бұрын
There aren't reviews because the mouse isn't available and review units haven't been sent out
@sk8ervader
@sk8ervader 2 ай бұрын
Sounds like with a relaxed palm grip I would really like the “bio-nylon” $70 OG Ace.
@АлексейЧ-в6м
@АлексейЧ-в6м 2 ай бұрын
What's next. Uranium mouse? Self- charging+charging your house. 2,5 kg heavy weight warhead mouse. Device of the total victory!
@twi57ed
@twi57ed 2 ай бұрын
Ah, yes, my favourite mouse reviewer - shockzy.
@KennyKennTV
@KennyKennTV 2 ай бұрын
No-one : Boardzy : BIO NY-LON BIO NY-LON
@sistematic1
@sistematic1 2 ай бұрын
DOSCIENTO CINCUENTA DOLORES HAHAHAHAHAHAHA good pronunciation . cant wait to get this mouse and the 65% new keyboard.
@CX50CX50
@CX50CX50 2 ай бұрын
Can you review the argonpads please? There are like 4 options now in terms of ‘models’ and im wondering what you think of it. Thanks!
@Fran-su1db
@Fran-su1db 2 ай бұрын
When are you reviewing the harpe ace mini
@boardzy
@boardzy 2 ай бұрын
They didn't send me it and its only up for preorder so I presume it isn't ready yet
@45hotro
@45hotro 2 ай бұрын
For $250.00, it should at least double as a PEZ dispenser.
@mentarium9741
@mentarium9741 2 ай бұрын
i like the way you think
@yipeefps
@yipeefps 2 ай бұрын
0:30 “Harping on the extreme price” 😂
@therealcsing
@therealcsing 2 ай бұрын
Wow! You really sold me on the mouse.
@beam4671
@beam4671 2 ай бұрын
How is your PMM Neo 8K? Will there be more reviews coming?
@CFMaximus
@CFMaximus Ай бұрын
Bio-nylon sounds impressive... but does it have polymers?
@alirezadindar-s3q
@alirezadindar-s3q 2 ай бұрын
hey boardz, which asus rog mice would you recommend most? since i had bought my all the components from asus i needed a wireless mouse.
@PLRoox
@PLRoox 2 ай бұрын
Hi Is this integrated with aimlabs like harpe ace?
@nikitaokhotnikov6372
@nikitaokhotnikov6372 2 ай бұрын
For 250$ you can buy A WHOLE BIKE FRAME made of carbon fiber, bullsh&t
@BOBBIGUY
@BOBBIGUY 2 ай бұрын
By the thumbnail, I only see two things immediately: 250€ but no Boardzy seal of approval. So I don’t even need to watch xD
@MastrPunchr
@MastrPunchr 2 ай бұрын
yo boardzy you gonna do a review of the superglide v2 pad? I think I saw one from you of the skates but couldn't find one for the pad
@johnholsteer7702
@johnholsteer7702 2 ай бұрын
Will you review the lamzu paro boardzy?
@mynniee6491
@mynniee6491 2 ай бұрын
can you review the Lethal Gaming Gear LA-1?
@septFPS
@septFPS 2 ай бұрын
DOSCIENTOS CINCUENTA DOLORES, ¿CÓMO QUÉ? 🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣
@FLLFFLGaming
@FLLFFLGaming 2 ай бұрын
Honestly, I really like the fact that they have GLASS SKATES ON THIS and not for the rest, BULLSHIT, at least sell them for all of the variants
@KalyuGD727
@KalyuGD727 2 ай бұрын
Would it be possible at all to make an aerogel mouse? That'd be neat if somebody could put the time in to develop it
@Fex1s
@Fex1s 2 ай бұрын
Do you have to have win11 to get the polling rate booster to work?
@smey02
@smey02 2 ай бұрын
pricing is ridiculous of course, but gotta say, the carbon fiber is pretty cool, given that we all use expensive heavy metal keyboards, and just have out plastic mice next to it...a carbon fiber mouse really would match quality wise
@xythiera7255
@xythiera7255 2 ай бұрын
Not realy . Magnesium exist that feels more premium then a 250€ eavy fiber mouse i have no idea who is the target market for this mouse
@Djare915
@Djare915 2 ай бұрын
Does anyone know anything about the LGG LA-1 new batch?!Is it coming and when...I am in real pain cause that is like the only shape that fits my hand like 90% perfect.
@dunny_420
@dunny_420 2 ай бұрын
250 from asus, im not suprised one bit lol, have fun with this one boys
@WildThingss
@WildThingss 2 ай бұрын
Bro review the orbital pathfinder
@BLACKSYNTH
@BLACKSYNTH 2 ай бұрын
Whats Glass skates like on a glass pad?
@ibullet1
@ibullet1 2 ай бұрын
Do you prefer maya x or vv3
@Iocusamoenus
@Iocusamoenus 2 ай бұрын
i jus got x2h im so happy dud
@PannyLanny
@PannyLanny 2 ай бұрын
Not to mention, this 250$ mouse comes with a 1 YEAR WARRANTY while razer signature mini came with 3 years... Asus being asus...
@Kahlimer0
@Kahlimer0 2 ай бұрын
For every Asus product, you can be sure to easily find better for cheaper.
@janiu1889
@janiu1889 2 ай бұрын
I probably would have bought this but the weird plastic side is a turn off. Probably gonna have to wait for the carbon WLmouse
@guybrushtwood
@guybrushtwood 2 ай бұрын
ORBITAL PATHFINDER 😳😳😳🤯
@5enna0ne
@5enna0ne 2 ай бұрын
I erased rubber side on my Harpe Ace after 3 mounts. ;(
@pingerlol
@pingerlol 2 ай бұрын
thanks for translating for me
@Vermiton
@Vermiton 2 ай бұрын
put in a good word for us to get a hien goon pad
@frankvaldivia.6691
@frankvaldivia.6691 2 ай бұрын
naah the price even got ma boy speaking español😭
@brillnanda666
@brillnanda666 2 ай бұрын
47 grams for a full carbon mouse is heavy as fcck. It's as heavy as a VXE R1 PRO which is 40 dollars
@yakitaki2059
@yakitaki2059 2 ай бұрын
Review the ASUS TUF M3 gen 2
@cheve8711
@cheve8711 2 ай бұрын
i always hated asuss scroll wheel rgb bc it makes look cheap to me, maybe make it like steelseries prime scroll
@MeoUwU
@MeoUwU 2 ай бұрын
hello boarder
@guybrushtwood
@guybrushtwood 2 ай бұрын
ORBITAL PATHFINDER! REVIEW NOW!!!!!!!
@PannyLanny
@PannyLanny 2 ай бұрын
6:07 somehow I doubt that...
@lostboy2637
@lostboy2637 2 ай бұрын
All I care is this XM2 8K on your desk
@boardzy
@boardzy 2 ай бұрын
Will be covering that along with the purple frost op18k soon
@Xaero_ZRX-33
@Xaero_ZRX-33 2 ай бұрын
​@@boardzySHOCKING PURPLE MOUSE
@houssamalucad753
@houssamalucad753 2 ай бұрын
Did we all collectively forget about the promise of the XM2W? Still wishing for that with better switches than the XM2WE and 4khz at least...
@nik_mik
@nik_mik 2 ай бұрын
don't bait me like this lostboy
@silly1281
@silly1281 2 ай бұрын
@@houssamalucad753 xm2/op1 4k coming soon, they were shown at computex not too long ago
@Patrick-lg3mk
@Patrick-lg3mk 2 ай бұрын
wheres the super light dex? review
@Matt54321
@Matt54321 2 ай бұрын
Electrifying!!!!
@Chiza15
@Chiza15 2 ай бұрын
250 Dólares? (ESCANDALOSO)
@thenewbb
@thenewbb 2 ай бұрын
hey, at least its only half of their extreme keyboard
@ledifyy
@ledifyy 2 ай бұрын
Where is the zero giveaway?
@maxzoRHD
@maxzoRHD 2 ай бұрын
I dont mind overpriced premium gaming gear, but honestly 250$ ? Its nothing impressive , we have many custom mouses you can buy that weight less, use simlar or same premium materials, have 4k and 8k dongle etc, awesome sensors etc... and still cost a lot less. Just recently i replaced my Viper V3 Pro ( paid 150$ euros new) ,for a AKITSU from vancer, its a 38gram, 8k lcd dongle, carbon composite mouse + extra ptfe skates, grip tape etc.. for 140$.. And its using a pretty well known PIXART 3395 sensor , Nordic 52840 mcu etc.. I havent tested ace extreme, but i doubt its anything mindblowing or it would deffend the 250$ price well. Maybe if the mouse was like 180$-200$ i would consider it.. But then again i always avoid strix parts cause of Armory Crate. And who gives a fuck if the mouse can witstand a 5000lbs pressure of force or 500, come on. This mouse is just silly and there is much better offers. I see no reason to get it, when looking at others. I dont see any comp gamer getting this, it will mostly be some dudes who have no idea what they are buying, but just want that CARBONFIBER BEST MOST EXPENSIVE ROG TAX MOUSE.
@Stap2749
@Stap2749 2 ай бұрын
Best mouse is endgame gear OP18. 8Micro seconds
@Xaero_ZRX-33
@Xaero_ZRX-33 2 ай бұрын
Just God tier 🗿
@joshdeconcentrated2674
@joshdeconcentrated2674 2 ай бұрын
80*
@noweirdstuffallowed3486
@noweirdstuffallowed3486 2 ай бұрын
🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅💥💥💥💥🔫🔫
@uhhh684
@uhhh684 2 ай бұрын
lol "they don't want you to call it plastic" sorry but Nylon is plastic, haha.
@irantugg
@irantugg 2 ай бұрын
SHOCKED
@auroraflash
@auroraflash 2 ай бұрын
Stocking price
@gilruiz009
@gilruiz009 2 ай бұрын
I"ll wait until the Harpe Ace Extreme mini, maybe it will cost less since it will be less carbon 🤣
@Munky332
@Munky332 2 ай бұрын
Oi, where all the gaming vertical mice out there for muh carpal tunnel sufferers? I feel like my GPro Superlight just aint cuttin it.
@thenewbb
@thenewbb 2 ай бұрын
yo review the razer deathadder v2 wired i bet u $500 u dont
@mklegomaster
@mklegomaster 2 ай бұрын
En efecto cuesta dolores 😂😂
@webnutzu
@webnutzu 2 ай бұрын
EXTREME SHOCKING
@Stoogie
@Stoogie 2 ай бұрын
hi boardzy
@whoaitstiger
@whoaitstiger 2 ай бұрын
2025 will be the year of the $1000 mouse, mark my words. We have not seen the peak of extortion yet folks.
@ASUSPRNorthAmerica
@ASUSPRNorthAmerica 2 ай бұрын
If you do not want Carbon fiber you can get the Harpe Ace with similar specifications and also supports our ROG Polling Rate Booster. The premium is due to the challenges of construction and inclusion of many additions. For reference while not noted in the video the Carbon fiber mouse compared against is over $300 dollars and not even tri mode.
@doge8153
@doge8153 2 ай бұрын
Glorious Series 2 pro review when?
@olivertrees
@olivertrees 2 ай бұрын
see glorious series one pro review
@T4ilLight
@T4ilLight 2 ай бұрын
Dex when
@Terra101
@Terra101 2 ай бұрын
Instead of fixing their flaws they just remake it in some ultra cool material that some bonehead will buy into because they have no idea what makes a mouse good.
@Exyile
@Exyile 2 ай бұрын
very bio nylon pilled
@cheve8711
@cheve8711 2 ай бұрын
DOSCIENTOS CINUENTA DOLORES
@ApacheMatte
@ApacheMatte 2 ай бұрын
Boardzy
@trafalgarlaw98
@trafalgarlaw98 2 ай бұрын
Life has taught me to never buy an Asus product no matter how good it looks
@fatihterzi9169
@fatihterzi9169 2 ай бұрын
Amaç en pahalı mouse bizim mouse muhabbeti başka birşey değil yoksa akitsuda karbonfiber rog keris 2 ace yeterli asus için uçamaya gerek yok
@Haru_no_ki
@Haru_no_ki 2 ай бұрын
Asus is chasing Blizzard, Ubisoft, Glorious and Logitech in terms of worst products in gaming space
@cacaulaymulkin7724
@cacaulaymulkin7724 2 ай бұрын
Orbital pathfinder review? Lol
@thecyansaiyan
@thecyansaiyan 2 ай бұрын
spanish definitely shocking
@josko144
@josko144 2 ай бұрын
250? get 4 and you have the best monitor on the market
@CRAiCED.
@CRAiCED. 2 ай бұрын
WHO IS THIS FOR???
@notTerabyte
@notTerabyte 2 ай бұрын
extreme pricing extreme brain damage
@SwipedUp
@SwipedUp Ай бұрын
This will be 100 bucks by february😭
@takh6806
@takh6806 2 ай бұрын
Longer than it should be
@lazyn8
@lazyn8 2 ай бұрын
wait it cost more than final mouse fr oh nooooooo :)
@weroliera
@weroliera 2 ай бұрын
Me gusta que ables español
@nhyvt
@nhyvt 2 ай бұрын
I thought the Dex review would come out first.
@boardzy
@boardzy 2 ай бұрын
I've had this for weeks and the Dex still hasn't arrived
@nhyvt
@nhyvt 2 ай бұрын
@@boardzy Shocking!
@bug-qe1jz
@bug-qe1jz 2 ай бұрын
i hate the way carbon fiber looks
@eliasnortega
@eliasnortega 2 ай бұрын
Glorious just put out a Logitech Clone Pro X super light, next review?
@olivertrees
@olivertrees 2 ай бұрын
What’s it called?
@Zufftino
@Zufftino 2 ай бұрын
250 dollores omaiga
@ACE112ACE112
@ACE112ACE112 2 ай бұрын
EXTREME PRICE TAG LUL
@catalincosmin1465
@catalincosmin1465 2 ай бұрын
Who buy this 😅let me know
@WagaTouso
@WagaTouso 2 ай бұрын
250$ made out of carbon fiber and stilk has a weight of 47g, while a 60$ chinese mouse weighs 38g lol
@olivertrees
@olivertrees 2 ай бұрын
Tbf this is a much larger shape
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