Atheist Couple React to Christian Sex Advice

[@sallycriss353]

I woke from a dead sleep with my "Christian" ex husband raping me. One of our pastor's wives found me crying in the church bathroom the next day. ( I was on staff) When I told her what happened she looked me in the eyes and asked if I had been "meeting his needs". I think my deconstruction started at that moment, even if I didn't realize it at the time. The only good things to come from that violation is my glorious 17 year old daughter and my freedom from Christianity.

[@aazhie]

That is so awful :( I'm glad you aren't in that situation anymore, and I hope you and your daughter are safe &sound

[@openlybookish]

I'm so incredibly sorry your ex tarnished your trust and view of Christianity. What he did to you was pure evil.

[@sallycriss353]

@@aazhie thank you! We are good now.

[@sallycriss353]

@@openlybookish we are MUCH happier as atheists. I love my Christian friends and family members, but we just don't believe any of it. The kids ( ages 30. 27 and 16) live our lives treating people with dignity & respect without the baggage of religion. Our values haven't changed. We've become better people overall.

[@openlybookish]

@@sallycriss353 Hi Sally I appreciate your candid response. I'd be interested to chat further. I know sometimes when someone deconverts they can be quite militant towards Christians.

[@righttoleft1610]

It’s truly chilling to watch Paul and Morgan carelessly advocate for marital SA with no understanding of what they are saying. They truly don’t understand the concept of consent.

[@amberinthemist7912]

The idea that I didn't own my own body was one of the main reasons why I left church. It's so disturbing to me. I don't understand how anyone would want to live like that, even the men, why would you want to have sex with someone when you can never know if they really want to be doing it.

[@annasalmans5523]

​@@amberinthemist7912 me too

[@zerosnake2669]

​@@InescapableRealityOfficial2 Is that sarcastic or..

[@johnpatterson4816]

Dirty Deeds Done With Sheep!!

[@InescapableRealityOfficial2]

@@zerosnake2669 nah

[@cozmo840]

Learning about sex from p-rn is like learning about archaeology from Indiana Jones.

[@Lee-nl1tg]

This made me laugh, thanks

[@GenRN]

Excellent analogy.

[@nasonguy]

Or learning about Jesus from conservative Christians.

[@RichWoods23]

The only thing they have in common is a whip?

[@odinson6348]

But... I learned about sex from Indiana Jones.

[@ListySarcastic]

I used to believe that. When I was single and Christian I would use that quote Morgan did pretty much as flirting. Like, yeah I'm not gonna have sex before marriage but if we click and get married I will never deny you sex unless I absolutely have to like after childbirth. I told that to my co-worker (now husband) and expected the usual "Oh really???" positive response but he immediately turned around with a look of disgust and horror on his face and said "That's so fucked up. If you don't WANT to have sex, you shouldn't be having sex. I have no interest in having sex with someone who is less than 100% into it."

[@nono-im7jo]

w husband

[@KreeZafi]

Excellent response from your husband! I cannot fathom how anyone could NOT feel that way, it's such a massive turn-off for me if someone isn't wholeheartedly enthusiastic about it

[@Silvermoonscorpion]

This is what my husband said.. exactly. What's the point of you're actually not enthusiastic.. he couldn't.

[@lovethegoodandabsoluelyhatebad]

There's a keeper

[@bobtheball5384]

​@@SilvermoonscorpionChad husband. So glad you got out of that mindset.

[@fewilcoxYT]

There was a time when judges ruled that it wasn't actually rape if she's your wife. I'm terrified by the number of people who think we should still be living in a world that treats women that way.

[@Iamblahblah111]

That’s one of the many reasons why women are opting out of marriage and children

[@JemimaDoesASMR]

"That time" was a lot more recent than people may think - it wasn't actually confirmed in the courts in the UK until 1991, and wasn't explicitly enshrined in legislation as a crime until 2003.

[@MariahRAchel1]

That time is still ongoing. Some states don’t recognize marital rape as rape, some don’t unless there was literally a knife or gun held to the victim, and a lot have loop holes for married rapists or even rapists who are not married but in a relationship with the victim. This is definitely something we still need to talk about a lot more.

[@jannieschluter9670]

husband and wife are considered to be ONE FLESH. That's why "raping" your own wife is an oxymoron-

[@Zombina638]

Late but yea this world is f**ked

[@roneeshea-tyler7756]

I find this triggering but I am entertained by Morgan. She has the most natural “I just smoked a bowl” expression I’ve ever seen.

[@brionnebeck6954]

😂 right?! She has to be stoned

[@amandarhoads4640]

You guys really think Paul would allow Morgan to partake in "The DEVIL'S lettuce"?!?! Purely speculation here, but... If I had to take a guess, I'd bet he'd scold her for even looking sideways at a lil' weed!!!

[@racecartestpilot167]

​@amandarhoads4640 I dunno, I'm guessing he hits it to...and they've got restraints under their bed😂

[@campfire_cat]

I was thinking the same thing! Is she high? Cause she looks kind of out of it

[@jasonwheeler826]

I think that in another reality, Morgan is a weed smokin' hippie chick, and is much happier.

[@roeliethegoat]

I'd like to add something to sex no longer being the forbidden fruit anymore once youre married, and therefore less enticing. I think it runs deeper than that. When you're taught to be ashamed of sex, you can't expect people to actually enjoy it the day after you're married. You can't break cycle of shame that easily. So participating in something that is supposed to bring you shame, won't give you pleasure. Rather the opposite. Hence the feeling of wanting to keep your clothes on.

[@Daeuse]

This is so true. Even P&M talk about how sex is so taboo in the Christian world even for married couples. The evangelical environment I grew up in places so much shame around sex even for married couples. It's only purpose was reproduction. How do you then just shed all that shame because you're suddenly married. Also, with purity culture you're not supposed to know anything about sex and all. For many young people, especially those with vaginas, sex can be uncomfortable to start with, and when you have no knowledge of what might ease the discomfort you begin to associate sex with pain. Then it becomes hard to get aroused and enjoy it. I had a friend to through this situation and it was heart breaking.

[@austinluther5825]

Interesting observation. That seems like a common theme in ideologies that frequently use fear and shame to control behavior.

[@burke615]

@@Daeuse And that becomes a vicious cycle. Because they can't get aroused, it is more likely to be painful. And the shame may be stopping them from just buying some lube, so it keeps being painful, which makes it harder to get aroused the next time, and round and round it goes. I think heart breaking really is the best descriptor for that.

[@kandyappleview]

yes thank you for bringing this up! it's not a switch you flip because you proposed or have a ring on your finger. i wish this was talked about more.

[@skepticusmaximus184]

I agree about the sexual repression being an ongoing issue. Most men I expect, don't experience as much attenuation of their libido though, as a result of purity culture, either before or after marriage. Why should a religious (or secular) ceremony and a paper certificate have any effect on libido right? But for men the biological drive to reproduce is ubiquitous because they carry the pollen like a bee to a flower which is rooted in one place. For females, the practical investment in sexual reproduction and cost of child bearing is comparatively massive. The biological (and by extension psychological/instinctive) reason why females are reluctant to procreate is they have more invested in long-term partnership. Males tend towards fast red cars with hoods that drop at the push of a button. Females are interested in after sales service, insurance and long-term reliability. Biologically what gets a females genes into future generations is different than what does the same thing for males. Of course, before the invention of contraceptives, sexual repression and abstinence had a part to play in population control. In anycase, I've long nurtured a hypothesis about religious worship and particularly the more exuberant emotional varieties, as a kind of emotional surrogate for sexual passion. The power to invoke a strong emotional experience in church can usurp and suppress, the motive to indulge the emotional rewards for sex. Having a communal practice of sexual repression, is setting up a motive for religious excitement or even ecstacy. From a religious perspective it's a method of control and conformity. Basically, if you're sexualy repressed and shit in bed, you can go to church instead and get your rocks off in a group mental masturbation session.

[@salamanda11]

Props to you guys for being so much more respectful of them than they are of nonbelievers. Morgan literally just called non-Christians worldly heathens, and you’re both so sweet.

[@ViridianCrisis7]

To her credit, heathen is an accurate term. Though the negative connotation behind the term isn’t great of course

[@tweak8866]

To be fair, proud heathen here, I'll take that title 😂

[@RobertTaylor]

Worldly heathen is a moniker I won’t reject, either

[@Major-DoMo]

“Heathen” is too close to the name Heather. I’ve known too many nice and wonderful heathers to ever personally associate heathen with any negative light. I’ll proudly take the label of heathen to help change the connotations.

[@someonerandom256]

I will gladly own the term heathen 😂

[@punknomad7995]

Paul and Morgan are the embodiment of “one step forward two steps back”. Every time they say actual decent advice it’s immediately followed up by horrible or harmful advice.

[@oncdoc01]

I agree with you, as does my wife, who is a licensed clinical psychotherapist. My wife and I are Christians in the Holy Roman Catholic Church. My wife has led many of our "marriage encounter" groups in California. She has not been asked to lead any marriage encounter sessions since moving to Northern Virginia 15 years-ago. Those who have led the two marriage encounter we've attended, are not licensed psychotherapists.

[@Beetlejam837]

Not Morgan saying that she and Paul didn’t have any issues related to her having slept with someone prior to marrying Paul. 😂 How many times has he whined about this on camera for anyone to see?? This is CLEARLY something that was an issue between them and he has shamed her publicly for this countless times!

[@mikearchibald744]

Good grief why would you even watch people like that? That seems just horrible.

[@sorryoutlandish]

⁠@BCTMBeven then, marriage between 2 virgins is not the ideal. it’s an option, absolutely, but shouldn’t be put on a pedestal. still an unhealthy mindset to have. what’s more realistic from a christian perspective would be to recognize the complexity of human sexuality given to us by god, and let others live how to wish to live

[@niekesselbrugge1132]

@@sorryoutlandishits refreshing to see someone from the theistic side with an open minded view. That is assuming you are a christian. Sorry if i assumed wrong

[@amandaw6872]

I get furious at people like P&M on the consent issue... This is such a dangerous thing to push. I was raised with this, and it took the shock of a friend being extremely blunt and saying to me "I don't care if you're married, r@pe is r@pe" for me to recognize the abuse I had been living with. Because I had been so indoctrinated that a wife is supposed to be submissive, and that rebellion against that is what causes marriage to fail, I was terrified to admit to that reality.

[@skinfully]

wow, i'm glad you think otherwise now. i hope you're doing better

[@paulajames6149]

Sorry this happened to you.

[@amandaw6872]

Thanks! This was over 20 years ago - I've come a long way since then! But there were 2 children born to that marriage before I "woke up" and while I've always done my best, and therefore know that guilty feelings are unwarranted for any damage done to them on my journey, self-forgiveness (as well as forgiveness to my parents, because as wrong as I feel they were, they were also doing their best at the time) is not something that just "happens" and both that and the deep seeded mentality planted in my youth still pops up in odd ways occasionally now. It's soooo insidious and damaging!! Which is why I get so angry at such casual treatment of it by religions and the people who follow them. 😒

[@tennicksalvarez9079]

Damm sounds rough.

[@charisma-hornum-fries]

​@@amandaw6872 Did he ever understand what he did to you? Or that it was wrong, damaging and cruel? I hope you have experiences now that shows you respect for your borders both in and out of the bedroom.

[@theredhotstv]

I married an asexual man (he only discovered this after I showed him it exists, he just thought he was broken) and as an allosexual, the beginning was tough because sexual acts is a major way to show my love and be shown love. He thought he HAD to do it... But if I ever saw he wasn't enjoying it we stopped. It's not healthy or fun unless BOTH people give willing and enthusiastic consent! We've been together 9 years, so it's completely healthy and still a marriage even without a lot of sex! 🥰

[@MissAppolonia]

You're a wonderful spouse for helping him discover the term for his orientation. Knowledge about niche orientations is so important. I'm asexual, too, and while I never thought I was broken, I did know that I was different (considered if I just was a lesbian, I was not), and discovering the term was a relief. My boyfriend is allosexual, and we are doing well so far, he's very respectful as well. Hearing that it works long-term give me hope :)

[@stilltrying619]

Right on. My partner has sexual trauma (FROM Evangelicism) and sometimes can't have sex for months. It doesn't cause problems within our relationship. It's a particular form of bonding and I miss it sometimes, but we bond other ways and I don't feel like i'm being deprived of something I'm entitled to. I love them, I don't want to view them as a needs-meeting machine.

[@NothingOfficial668]

Much respect for you all. Not sure how you do it.

[@MckenzieProctor]

I'm in a similar situation! my partner is likely somewhere on the ace spectrum and has past trauma. we've worked on and continue to work on what sex and intimacy looks like for us and not what it's "supposed" to look like based on everyone else. it's never been a huge issue, it's just what our relationship looks like and requires open and honest communication even in the times where our desires differ. sex isn't the only way to be intimate and we don't have to follow the "typical" relationship model. thank you for allowing that space for your partner and helping him through his sexuality journey. i wish all the best for your relationship!!

[@Returntonature145]

I will never marry an asexual girl😭.I don't give a fuck if she is romantic,demi whatever.I want a girl to enjoy sex with me just like people enjoy food together😭.They feel disgusted if you have sex with them. So you did the good thing by not forcing him to have sex.

[@someonerandom256]

I think the idea that sex is for reproduction only and that pleasure is just a potential side-effect, is inherently misogynistic in and of itself. A man has to have an orgasm on order for reproduction to take place, but a woman doesn't, so the man's pleasure is more or less guaranteed while the woman's is considered inconsequential...

[@paulajames6149]

I am a christian and I don’t agree with that notion. Simply logic would dismantle this argument. Women have a limited timeframe for childbearing. After this time period, they still have 30-40 yrs of life left.

[@Napoleonic_S]

So nature itself made us evolve into mysogynistic creatures, can people admit it?

[@tennicksalvarez9079]

@@paulajames6149 paula. And?????? U don't understand the argument ur making

[@blammela]

Pleasure being a biproduct is a garbage argument. If God made it pleasurable then it is supposed to be pleasurable.

[@audreybourgeois4626]

​@@tennicksalvarez9079In the context of Christian think, I believe she means the husband will continue to have sexual needs after the wife is menopausal. If sex was truly meant only for reproduction, then both partners "should" stop sexual activity after the wife's menopause. However, this has historically never been the case, so all those people were being incredibly hypocritical by implicitly saying the man's pleasure without reproduction is correct while condemning women's pleasure in the same breath.

[@kiterafrey]

If your spouse doesn't want to have sex with you for months and months on end, maybe you should check in with them. More often than not in a non-asexual relationship a spouse disconnecting sexually is a sign of emotional withdraw. Maybe they're suffering emotionally. Maybe the spouse wanting the sex is being selfish. For example, many Cis Het wives stop finding their husband attractive because he turns into a man child and no one finds being a mother arousing.

[@Beanmachine91]

id at least want someone to play chess with lol with cannabis blunts and whiskey shots

[@Kingofthenet2]

This is a great point

[@AB-80X]

Have you seen her husband? Paul is the embodiment of emotional abuse in a relationship. He is absolutely disgusting.

[@kiterafrey]

@@AB-80X she doesn't want to fuck him cuz he does things that make him unfuckable in a relationship. But my point was more to encourage others to check in with spouses and take healthy approachs, approachs paul couldn't even fathom.

[@Sheuto]

There are literally people with a kink for being seen as mother though

[@youmaycallmecath]

The part where Morgan said that "heathens" don't understand selfless love was incredibly insulting. I would actually argue that you should perform an act of selfless love but from the otherside: like, if you're very horny but your partner is feeling super down and super tired this week and doesn't feel like it at all, instead of forcing them to have sex with you, why don't YOU make the selfless act of abstinence? Like accepting to not have sex and let your partner rest? I mean, forcing yourself to have sex when you don't feel like it kinda feels like it could be damaging in a way, like maybe it could end up making you feel like sex is a chore (it could also work the opposite way too, it depends on the person honestly). But also, maybe that's just me but if I was to have sex with someone who I know is forcing themself to do it and/or looks like they aren't enjoying it, that would be such a turn-off. Like I would turn drier than the desert in a nanosecond.

[@openlybookish]

Beautifully shared Catherine. Selflessness goes both ways.

[@misscrackwood]

And if the horny partner really needs relief and their spouse is not feeling it, they can just self-satisfy themselves and call it a day! It doesn't need to ALWAYS be an activity for two ;^^ Everyone has different needs and it's so important to respect each other's boundaries!

[@LivingItUp810]

Yeh it is damaging because it’s sex without consent which is the textbook definition of SA. Thinking abt having relations with someone unwilling makes me want to vomit. How sad and desperate dos a person have to be in order to engage with their partner like that.

[@RR-kz4hq]

I agree. I like this point and hadn’t thought of it before!

[@micheller3251]

@@misscrackwood but then again, Paul and Morgan think that playing solo is bad so that option doesn't exist in their mind. You can't solo it, you can't just not have it, therefore, to them the only solution is to force yourself/ your partner into sex which is why everyone is (rightfully so) mad at them.

[@jadaherrera7970]

It’d be much more selfless to put aside your sexual desire for your partner in order to make them feel comfortable, understood, and loved.

[@kiterafrey]

I grew up Pentecostal, and most of my friends and family waited. They had a lot of issues in their bedrooms to express. Most of the women I knew who waited found they didn't enjoy sex, it felt like a chore, and they felt like it was still wrong and were feeling guilty because you can't turn off that "sex is evil" switch just by getting married.

[@pinkcockroach]

are you still pentecostal?

[@kiterafrey]

@@pinkcockroach No, thankfully I found my way to freedom. Albeit in an unpleasant way, but still beautiful freedom.

[@pinkcockroach]

@@kiterafrey thank you for sharing that to me, im pentecostal too and i recently just cut off all my relations to their church so it's somehow comforting to know it's not just me

[@marvin2678]

sex isnt evil, but sleeping with random men is

[@ayomidedareabel5525]

​@@marvin2678no it isn't. Besides who said anything about having random hookups. You can preach abstinence without making sex look like a bad thing. The fact that most people aren't taught proper sex education is the reason why straight women only experience orgasm from 7% of men

[@EmArTea]

Finally pinned down the thing that bugs me about the “owing” conversation: why is it the partner who does not want to have sex who always needs to be giving “selfless love”? The assumption always seems to be that a partner not wanting to have sex is “withholding” and never that the partner who does want to is demanding. Sometimes to be selfless and loving you obviously have to take a “no” with grace, but I don’t think I have EVER heard that side in Christian circles.

[@duchessofmischief4552]

I just want to say that as a Christian I really respect both of you, and the fact that you are able to disagree while still being respectful. It is a quality that is unfortunately lacking in society nowadays

[@theantibot]

Thank you for your kind comment!

[@ChronicNewb]

"You can't be a sexual being outside of a couple" is why it took me so damn long to figure out that I'm asexual. I didn't understand that only wanting solo sex could be a legitimate expression of sexuality.

[@ChronicNewb]

@yupyup3878 It's never too late to explore! Maybe therapy or something could help? You are of course welcome in the ace community as long as you feel that way, but I wouldn't give up hope ✊ phobias can be overcome

[@Nathouuuutheone]

It's the first time I see asexuality equated with solo sex. Wouldn't an asexual person be just as likely to want solo sex as they would be to want sex with a partner?

[@ChronicNewb]

@@Nathouuuutheone it's different for everyone, I can only speak for myself

[@jerome96114]

@@Nathouuuutheone Depends, I think. Some even are okay witgh sex, just don't crave it. I am not Ace myself, so take this with a grain of salt & correct me if i'm wrong, but my impression was there are at least three types of person that describe themselves as asexual: 1. Sex repulsed/ negative asexuals: Actively dislike the sexual feelings of the body, and hence avoid sex at all. 2. Sex neutral asexuals: Sex does nothing for them, but doesn't feel per se bad for them, and they might do it to please a partner - kinda like a massage. 3. Sex positive asexual ppl: By describing themselves as asexual typically mean they don't get turned on by other ppl, and not attracted by others, but do enjoy the purely mechanical - bodily feelings of it and have it from time to time for that reason alone - without lusting for the other person. Kinda like a group sport of sorts, I guess. I imagine in the third group there are plenty who enjoy masturbation for the same reasons - some that prbly still don't want to do it with others for one reason or the other. Remember: You don't have to be turned on or imagine others or watch porn or such to masturbate; You as well can do it solely mechanically to induce nice bodily feelings, relief stress, etc.

[@Nathouuuutheone]

@jerome96114 which is why I avoided implying asexuals don't have sex at all. My point is that the original comment seems to imply that asexual = solo sex, which is reductive and misrepresentative in a whole different way. I'm not assuming it's meant as literal and in bad faith, but the implication is there and I wanted to check if OP was aware it was there.

[@rebeccafromflorida1100]

Hi there! I'm a heathen (Jewish/agnostic-ish) who thinks sex should be consensual, even with a married partner. Super weird, I know.

[@madi32]

Weird and aPAULing.

[@RichWoods23]

It'll never catch on.

[@Ruth25853]

Hahahaha, idk, I'm jewish too, I belive most non orthodox jews believe that. i can't speak for the super orthodox community though

[@Hepheat75]

That's not weird, that's normal

[@herlocksholmes-uv5qw]

Revolutionary, even

[@paigechinaski7660]

I’ll never forget the clip of Paul going off about interracial relationships portrayed in film. He kept trying to get Morgan to agree with him that it’s woke and annoying to show interracial couples in film and that it’s being shoved down their throat. The clip was eventually deleted by them, but it’s still floating around online. They are a very strange duo.

[@sanaishere18]

Do you have a link to a reupload? He always gives me weird vibes and this doesn’t surprise me that he would say that ngl lol.

[@paigechinaski7660]

@@sanaishere18 fundie Fridays have a clip of it in one of their videos. I’ll try to find it and leave a time stamp.

[@TheNinthGeneration1]

@@paigechinaski7660did you find the clip?

[@Naptosis]

​​@@TheNinthGeneration1 @rockyishere557 ~ I found what you were both looking for (link at bottom). It begins at 47:39; stick around afterwards for homophobia, transphobia, and the dingleberry's intimation on how disgusting he finds his wife's postpartum body. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rXzRfIODg6tojNEsi=G_ttG334AOBPgRZQ

[@johnhorner1969]

It’s pretty natural to be 100 years behind the times and beliefs of common society of you are a Christian. Misogyny, racism, homophobia are all very present, real and essentially unavoidable undercurrents to Christianity at large today.

[@JuicyGummyBearz27]

I’d love to see them use the argument of “selfless love” for a woman wanting sex while on her period. I bet somehow the verse of your body being given to the other would change from grossed out husbands 😂

[@InescapableRealityOfficial2]

Doing it at that time is unhealthy and unclean. She ought to be kept apart until it's over.

[@irrelevant_noob]

Heh, "wanting sex while on her period"... Don't think there is such a thing. ;-) ( But your point is fair, and it should be included in any discussion of marital sexual duties. 👍) PS Although what Paul says at 45:46 seems to indicate that he's at least fair and distributes such duties equally.

[@rumfilleddrunkard]

That's actually one of the reasons that it took so long for martial rape to actually become a crime. It was felt that neither partner was allowed to ever say no.

[@RichBensen]

​@@irrelevant_noob Very wrong. An ex of mine would get extremely horny while on her period, which I thought was awesome. Not saying the same applies to all women, but it definitely applies to some.

[@tonichan89]

​@@irrelevant_noob yes there is :)

[@meinenklinke]

The day after I lost my virginity I ran into a friend who I knew was very religious and who I saw as “pure” and I cried for hours afterwards because I felt like he would know that I was dirty now. We’re good friends and we’ve both left our church since, and I know A LOT more about him now. 😂 But that shame, oof.

[@jacobstevens7046]

"I know A LOT more about him now." Lemme guess pure boy was not so pure lol

[@FearlessNimue]

I was raised that men are ferally sexual and women are not supposed to even want to have sex. That a woman who likes or even desires sex is a wh*re. This made me an extreme prude all throughout my 1st marriage. Learning that sexual desire can be healthy was mindblowing! All the years of guilt are still here and I'm still working through it. All I know is this: my enjoyment enhances my partner's enjoyment which enhances mine.

[@crunchybroll4731]

That sounds insane and I'm sorry that happened to you. I'm kind of the same way and I feel alot of shame towards sex but in the Bible it does say a woman's desire is for her husband and man's for his wife. Sex is the most intimate experience you can have with another person and it goes much deeper than reproduction, which is a deep thing too to have a baby from it. But sex is an expression of love because sex is what makes a marriage a marriage and different than just being friends. Marriage isn't a paper contract, or a religious ritual, it is a vow of loyalty to who you love and sex is part of it. I'm a Christian and this is just what I get from the Bible on it.

[@GoldenMermaid]

That's so weird and illogical. Men like to feel wanted too!! No hate on you! Im just saying the ppl who preach those ideas must be having rlly terrible sex on both sides. The woman gets no pleasure and the man gets no response or reaction. Sounds completely awkward and dead Tbh

[@ivytaylor1494]

That was pretty much implied through my upbringing as well, and while it's obviously damaging for girls on a personal level it also trains boys to act in predatory ways because they think it's normal to only think of their own pleasure and disregard their partner's wishes

[@marvin2678]

sleeping around makes you a wh.ore

[@ayomidedareabel5525]

​@@marvin2678same goes for you my guy

[@lellow19]

Selfless love is me understanding that sex is overwhelming and uncomfortable for my asexual husband, so I'm not going to force him to have sex with me. He doesn't owe me sex. I'm not going to force him to have sex with me because that's just plain cruel.

[@aazhie]

Makes me sad that it seems anyone on the ace spectrum is shamed into doing something they would not choose for themselves. Seems like a lot of churches want to make ace people force themselves to do things that are repellent to them. So sad and awful!

[@-whackd]

You married him to have kids with?

[@Tea-uo7ev]

​@@-whackd not all married couples want children.

[@SmallFaerie]

Thank you for writing this. My first thought when they brought up the notion of having sex against your will had anything to do with "selfless love" was why it never occurred to neither Paul nor Morgan to consider the selfless love of NOT demanding sex of your partner just because you want sexual pleasure. But honestly, their twisted idea of owing each other sex and not having the right to your own body at least bears some kind of consistency with the idea that you shouldn't engage in any self-pleasuring. It's not even close to healthy, though, for sure.

[@awkwardukulele6077]

@@-whackd she probably married him because she loved him. That's why most people get married.

[@freckledandred]

Morgan: it’s okay for you to have me-time Paul: with your husband

[@SilverMoon459]

LOL

[@07Flash11MRC]

Exactly. xD I wonder if they actually understand the meanings of the words they use.

[@michaelschipper1099]

I had a Christian tell me that gay marriage should not be allowed because it could lead to polyamory or bestiality. I almost laughed in his face.

[@labranehit7687]

Next time laugh, I read it's good for your health. 😊

[@MollyFC]

I always think of American Dad where Stan says it'll lead to horses eating each other 😅

[@katieflick888]

I remember an old church friend of mine laughing about how she would interrogate her husband when he would leave for a week at a time for work to make sure he wasn't "touching himself" while away from her. I asked her if she was ok with it as long as he was fantasizing about her or having phone sex and she said "No, that would be a form of unfaithfulness." That still perplexes me to this day. Also, I do think it is bordering on, if not flat out mental abuse to police what your partner does to their own body...like how incredibly intrusive to be like "You haven't masturbated today HAVE YOU?!?" It also just creates unnecessary trust issues because of course most likely both parties will masturbate and then they will feel ashamed and hide it from the other, building that feeling of suspicion, because they themselves are keeping it a secret. It's a lose/lose battle.

[@marvin2678]

orr they simply dont do it

[@hunterwaco2889]

I laughed when Morgan said that people who have premarital sex have issues in their marriage. Then she goes, that wasn't our experience, but it's true!

[@hunterwaco2889]

@BCTMB being indoctrinated to believe cohabitation, premarital sex and divorce are not allowed, decrease the likelihood of divorce and increase the likelihood of people who did not cohabiate and have premarital sex, staying in unhappy, abusive marriages rather than opting for divorce. Correlation is not causation, and divorce is not a bad thing.

[@hunterwaco2889]

@BCTMB but then you added a correlation which does not exist. Cohabitation and premarital sex do not actually increase statistic for divorce. A more accurate statement would have been "Christians do not usually cohabitate, do not usually have premarital sex and also do not usually divorce." They're not divorcing because they're Christian, NOT because they didn't cohabiate or have premarital sex.

[@hunterwaco2889]

@BCTMB they actually don't disagree. The studies I looked up literally half an hour ago show that Christians don't divorce because they don't believe in divorce and for no other reason. The only correlation is that Christians don't do X Y Z, not that X and Y will cause Z to happen.

[@stellarae8257]

the main research i have seen that would prove your point is from Brigham Young University... do you really trust them to have a completely unbiased view in this area?? does it not seem convenient to you, at all, that one of the largest Mormon institutions in america would have findings that support their teachings? their study was also only conducted on 100 people. if you look at marital happiness instead, which is what OP was actually talking about, the differences are very minor (particularly for women). women who have had only 1 sex partner are only 8% more likely to report having a very happy marriage than women with 21+ sex partners. if you take into account how many people with only 1 sex partner are likely from strict religious backgrounds in which they feel pressure to be and pretend to be happy in their marriages, that difference is very little. The difference is a bit starker for men, but then again, men who have had 6-10 sex partners were more likely to report having a very happy marriage than men who had 4 or 5 sex partners. similarly for women, women with 11-20 sex partners were more likely to report having very happy marriages than women who have had 4 sex partners. and if you look closer at this data you'll realize that it's from the freaking institute for family studies and they themselves are considered a right leaning/conservative value biased source. there simply isnt enough strong, unbiased evidence to support the idea that having less premarital sex partners leads to a *happier* marriage, and therefore a marriage with "less issues". if all you care about are divorce rates then you should know that of course religious people will have less sex partners when married and that most religions are severely against divorce. you dont need a study to tell you that. please let me know where your data actually comes from since you're claiming that there are a ton of scientific studies and experts who are making the claim youre asserting. if you really are just talking about divorce rates then you cannot just ignore the likelihood that secular people are more likely to get divorced, not because theyre less happy, but because they dont have as much shame and indoctrination built into them telling them that divorce isnt an option.@BCTMB

[@westboy52]

I also love how you basically advocate for disagreeing with P&Ms ideas, not attacking them personally. Big props for that!

[@clemclemclem-1]

+

[@KayKayBayForever]

I know this is a year later, but YES!

[@GlitterEnby]

I also think part of the reason that people react so strongly to P+M talking about spouses owing each other sex takes into account things they've said in the past. For example, they've said if you're hurt/angry and don't want to have sex, you should anyway to make the spouse happy because that is loving them sacrificially. Their stance in the past has been pretty dehumanizing and damaging.

[@fss1704]

No shit, look at moses and the midianite girls and tell me if you think there's any good on that.

[@ViridianCrisis7]

“Make your own Bridgerton” So roleplay is a biblically acceptable kink?

[@stilltrying619]

IME yes in many Evangelical spaces. As long as your not roleplaying as idol-worshipping Catholics or something lol. When my partner's childhood friend got married at 19 (bc she and her boyfriend wanted to have sex) all the older church ladies who were like moms to her gave her sex dice and maid outfits and shit at her bridal shower. True fucking story.

[@aazhie]

XD wow, that seems way wilder than I would have expected for evangelicals

[@stilltrying619]

@@aazhie I'm a leftist who grew up in San Francisco and I was completely scandalized lol. Just really uncomfortable with the fact that it was these ladies her moms age who she grew up with.

[@evenstoats2639]

Getting your dad drunk so he can impregnate you is accepted biblical kink.

[@mauriciorv228]

@@stilltrying619 Catholics don’t worship idols or statues; they venerate them.

[@pokemonfanthings4444]

I’m aroace and them talking about how sex is required in a relationship is terrifying to me. Think of all the LGBT+ people who don’t want to have sex with their partners because of their partner’s gender identity. Also vaginismus and similar conditions can make sex unbearable for some. Their un empathetic opinion is ableist too. this not only harms straight people, but LGBT+ people😢 too. Edit: literally 5 seconds later, you address this point lol I’m gonna leave my comment up anyway❤

[@aazhie]

Still relevant to have some ace perspective, for sure! P&M don't seem to acknowledge that someone could innately have no desire or interest in sex. That really shames a lot of people for very normal existence :(

[@MisterPyOne]

For my ex, sex was the most important part in a relationship, she left me because I wasn't good enough :(

[@-whackd]

Yeah I'm genuinely hurt by their opinions because I'm a mega-crybaby.

[@Missielou66]

Literally before I got together with my girlfriend I had this exactly ( she trans) . And it definitely held me back at first but it's definitely possible to find people who won't guilt trip you about it

[@bobtheball5384]

​@@MisterPyOneI'm sorry

[@Ticket2theMoon]

I really appreciate this video. I’m recently deconstructed, and I have a lot of baggage from my supposedly Christian marriage (which was abusive). I find Paul and Morgan videos very triggering, but your videos are helping me process some of what I’ve been through. It’s easy to just dunk on them when they say obviously ridiculous stuff, but much more helpful to go through in a nuanced and methodical way to talk about WHY their views (which are very similar to my former views, and those I was raised in) are harmful. So I really appreciate this.

[@joseluiscarrillogonzalez2410]

I wish the best for you in your journey and hope you find excellent supportive communities to be there with you through the hard days. I've found that various art communities and improv acting groups have been a great source of healing for me being in a fully excepting and caring community that focuses on developing your creative inner life. I hope you can find what works for you in your healing journey, and thank you dearly for sharing a bit of your journey!

[@marvin2678]

what happened ?

[@curlzOdoom]

I want to add that around the 49:00 Mark, Drew talks about how Paul would "oppose" the idea that this Bible verse means assault. While I do not believe that Paul would say that he does oppose abuse, husband's who use this verse as an excuse to abuse their spouses would also deny that it was abuse. There was a previous video where Paul communicated being sad/disappointed when Morgan stated that she refused sex because she was mad. They had a conversation about why partners should not deny sex even when they are upset. The implication is that, even if Morgan does not want to have sex due to an argument, she should swallow her pride and have sex anyway. That is not okay. That is what this rhetoric leads to.

[@Albinojackrussel]

Thank you for pointing that out. They seem to be taking an *incredibly* charitable take on what Paul and Morgan are saying here. But previous things they've said make things way less clear. I definitely agree that people over read into their body language in the most ridiculous ways, but you don't need to imagine paragraphs in the body language when their explicit words they say are enough.

[@johnpatterson4816]

But Dennis Prager said it was okay for you to make your woman do it even if she doesn't want to do it!!!

[@irrelevant_noob]

wait, what?! "why partners should not deny sex even when the other is upset" -- i don't think the one doing the denying is the OTHER than the one who is upset... :-B (But yeah, i agree that enthusiastic consent should be the requirement for sex.)

[@curlzOdoom]

@@irrelevant_noob fixed it!

[@curlzOdoom]

@Albinojackrussel I agree too. I'm not going to lie, I also fall into that trap sometimes. Honestly, with what I know of their relationship (far too much) leads me to fill in gaps in their body language I normally wouldn't. But I am trying to be better with that stuff. Especially since the things they say ARE enough to critique.

[@salamanda11]

The face you made after Drew said “the research agrees with the Bible so research is okay now.” 😆

[@irrelevant_noob]

17:53

[@felixtownn]

Two respectful, intelligent, open-minded individual in a loving healthy relationship 🥰 It's a delight to see you two interact

[@petrelli231]

Paul and Morgan always make me cringe because Paul is so confident and sure of how he's a Jesus-certified sex champion while Morgan is always hesitant and unsure whether she's allowed to disagree with his viewpoint.

[@johnhorner1969]

She is a women and in Christianity she’s a second class citizen. Have to follow her husband.

[@noone-jw7nd]

Hes so confident of every stance he has and he's always so wrong. He was completely home-schooling by fundie parents and has no tertiary education.

[@clawes4355]

Hahahaaha Jesus Certified Sex Champion hahahhha omg

[@sorryoutlandish]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@noone-jw7nd its really sad tbh. slight rant. i major in ed, and i’m so hesitant on homeschooling because of fundies like paul and most likely his parents. i support it for accelerated learners and students with disabilities, but the freedom is too often abused by people like them to willingly deprive their children of often vital life information. almost like child abuse in my eyes. it’s incomprehensible to me why you would want to ill-prepare your child, especially to paul’s degree, but i think it’s a testament to how deep these beliefs go

[@SmallFaerie]

I think that it's interesting to consider how several toxic ideas actually feed each other. In a situation where you're told that you aren't allowed to please yourself - holding out marriage as what will grant you that sexual relief which you are consistently denied - it sort of makes some kind of toxic sense to also add rules about not being allowed to deny that sexual gratification within that marriage. What doesn't make even a toxic kind of sense is hearing P&M say that having sex even if you don't actually want to has anything to do with "selfless love", seemingly completely missing the obvious counterargument of it being a far better example of selfless love to NOT pressure someone to have sex with you against their will.

[@Krikenemp18]

1. If you want sex, you have to get married 2. You're not allowed to pleasure yourself or explore your sexuality 3. Get married super early to someone you're probably not compatible with so you can have sex 4. Can't meet each other's needs, so guilt each other into doing things you don't want to do 5. You're not allowed to divorce now that you know you're not right for each other, so abuse and hate each other for years out of spite and frustration Yep, seems like the worst possible way to go about it.

[@kitty7492]

I didn't wait for marriage, went on to discover that I don't really enjoy sex, even though I want it, I feel pleasure only with myself. I've heard so many times that you can only enjoy sex with someone you marry and before I deconstructed, I struggled so much with guilt and shame. I still struggle with sex but I'm happy to have gotten rid of all that shame

[@craneoflores]

I was looking for this comment - I thought the same, in a situation where masturbation is off limits, it makes sense there would be another rule about not denying your partner. It's so wild to me though, that the solution for christians isn't to allow masturbation (which they really have no solid reason to ban) but to remove consent!

[@allisonod8575]

Playing your own record player is my new favorite euphemism

[@nasonguy]

Scratchin’ Vinyl. Bedroom DJ? Droppin’ a Beat?!

[@getgaymin]

#WickaWicka@@nasonguy

[@notheothersarah]

My ex fundamental Christian husband did withhold sex from me to the extent he said I had a problem because I wanted it a couple times a week or more. I would have settled for once a month. But as a man the pastor was like well what you going to do. I can guarantee you those sessions would have gone very differently if I had been the one with holding.

[@jamesparson]

Is he ex fundamental? ex Christian ? or ex husband? Sorry, I am confused

[@notheothersarah]

@@jamesparson ex husband, you're right I did slaughter that

[@jamesparson]

@@notheothersarah no worries. I have done worse.

[@fss1704]

That's what you get marrying a gay man

[@notheothersarah]

@@fss1704 that's what my dad saaaaid 🤔😂

[@grace-4072]

Goodness maybe I’m a weirdo but I’m SO EXCITED that yall made another one of these! For some reason P&M is a special interest of mine..maybe it’s because I was so similar to morgan as a young’un lol

[@mainecoonmami]

“Selfless love” is how I was abused for years.

[@el-lp2yu]

Listening to them talking about the concept of "selfless love" was so triggering. The thing they are describing is literally rape. I don't understand how one of the partners can enjoy sex knowing that the other one is just tolerating and suffering at that moment. thank you for covering this topic and disagreeing with what they say in such a respectful manner.

[@not_you_i_dont_even_know_you]

Honestly I'm surprised and glad to hear that Paul and Morgan are capable of taking in nrw information and changing their minds. A lot of Christians have completely inflexible frameworks and lack any critical thinking (because in a lot of denominations critical thinking is explicitly demonized). I hope they can keep leaning into compassion and let go of their outdated and unhelpful ideas. EDIT: oop. Just got to the part about owing your partner sex. Oy oy oy. And this is why (well, one of many reasons) as a young Christian I was terrified of marriage. Ew. No. Stop it. Consent is mandatory. You can't tell someone else to be selfless with sex. Gross.

[@aazhie]

Hey, you had a kinder mindset than they seem to do about anyone that does or says things they don't approve of! You tried, and they dropped the ball :/

[@dannylovell7876]

Maybe what they really want to mean (but aren't acknowledging) is that people who aren't sexually compatible shouldn't get married. If one person wants sex every day and the other is asexual...no amount of compromise is going to make that work. The sexual person never getting consent is just as cruel of a situation and not allowing the asexual person to consent.

[@Sweetpeachyfrog]

As someone who was raped. Hearing them say it’s ridicules. Before that there was points I disagreed with but they were respectful enough and they seemed sweet. But I wasn’t able to even finish that part without wanting to say something. They lost all respect and I didn’t And wasn’t wanting to hate on them but that is disgusting and just so damaging. They need to be better educated. If your partner needs sex that much and you physically can’t they can find a new partner and figure out if it is something they are willing to work with. Either way no one should be pressured to do those things. There has been so many times I had panic attacks or just broke down crying when trying to be intimate with them. There is times I can’t even be touched bc of it. It’s so disgusting to hear them say this.

[@Sweetpeachyfrog]

I am hoping they understand that there is a lot more to things. I don’t think they are bad people it’s just not okay as a blank statement

[@elosoguapo8137]

It’s obvious from the way that they talk that these two have very limited experience or understanding of very much at all. What’s worse is they’re putting it out there and telling other people that their limited perspective is correct. I shudder to think about a Christian who listens to this crap, believes it, and then has to go through what you went through.

[@Sweetpeachyfrog]

@@elosoguapo8137 yea I think it really does show. Because my best friend is religious, and I'm not really sure what I think anymore for my beliefs. She had me go with her because I was going through a lot, and she thought it would help me to be part of something again. but my beliefs now more so not and I don't really consider myself religious but I do have an understanding on it, but I think in some ways it can be a nice community based on our youth group leaders, they were amazing people, but I do get frustrated when people use the bible or religion to hate. I know they probably didn't mean to hurt people, but they need to be more careful for the amount of following they have. There was an older guy in that same youth group, and he and his wife were very religious, with no doubts. But the guy, 50 or 60s I think, who told me if I prayed god would heal me and then I could get over it, or something like that. I don't remember the exact words right now, but cherish and jordan (the caring and amazing people) cherish stood up for me and told him that is not how it works. Because I didn't say exactly, but I did say I was used and was crying and opening up about stuff, and for him to just say if I pray, it will solve all my problems, and mental health can be solved by praying basically. And even his wife was like, uh... but didn't really go to the level cherish did to support me. I think it's really just them not knowing how bad things are or not caring enough to look into it more when people are telling them it hurts. I wasn't saying I hated them or wanted anything terrible to them; I said what they told felt disgusting to me and was not okay. Hating on them doesn't solve it, but I know some people come from a calmer place but even then they still don't seek more information? That's where it feels like I don't think there is a lot else I can do for them to stop, but I can tell what happened to me and what they are saying is not right, and nobody owes their body to anyone,, and if you are uncomfortable it should be respected. Bear minimum. Also with going back and picking and choosing is a whole other problem. But thank you, I already typed quite a bit so I will leave it off here I tend to ramble

[@elosoguapo8137]

@@Sweetpeachyfrog What angers me about people who push you to pray to solve real problems or tell you that they’ll pray for you is that their motives aren’t always very good. Some of them think it will actually help. Some push prayer, because Whether or not it works, if a person feels better they’ll maybe attribute it to the prayer (could have been many other variables) and that person is then more likely to join their church. When you’re at your lowest is when these charlatans come after you. Absolute parasites. The truth is that we get better by talking to others and receiving proper treatment for trauma. That doesn’t make the trauma go away, but it does help to process.

[@Alexis-tx5en]

I’ve noticed that plenty of people can have terrible beliefs but talk about them in a “sweet and respectful” way. It’s makes it really difficult to stand up for yourself IRL.

[@WilliamJacobsenMusic]

I appreciate your balanced and fair approach to this. Great series of videos from you guys lately!

[@wiedzma_nie_niewiasta]

Wow. That was triggering. Thanks for the warning. I've been in an abusive relationship of this kind and I happen to be asexual. One of the reasons behind my PTSD. So sad there are people, even women, who truly believe that.

[@saggguy7]

paul and morgan: it’s fine to avoid an entire book of the bible if it goes against your personal conscience, but don’t put that on everyone else. also paul and morgan: we avoid all forms of sexual pleasure that don’t directly and physically include our spouses because it goes against our personal conscience, and we are putting that on everyone else.

[@fss1704]

Very moses of them to treat their spouses like a midianite child, go search these two.

[@DieSchiss]

You are conflating what the Old Testament says with the rhetoric of the New Testament. The Old testament contains many cultural viewpoints directed at Judaism and how they should regulate their moral law. In other words, the book of Leviticus were directed at the Levites, not Christians. But Christian can still discern from the literature which practises are useful and relevant, while others may be more relevant to the Levites of the time, as the book was written with respect to the issues the Levites faced, not Greeks or Americans, for instance

[@fss1704]

@@DieSchiss imagine jesus calling epstein a saint, then imagine that epstein didn't tell for a genocide, that's what i think about christianism.

[@DieSchiss]

@@fss1704 First of all, it's not "christianism", it is Christendom. Secondly, your analogy is completely irrelevant because Jesus actively warned us AGAINST sin, like every other messenger of God before him. The Israelites acted in ways they believed were not sinful in order to gain God's sympathy. For example, the 10 commandments doesn't command "thou shalt not kill" but rather "thou shalt not murder." War and murder was necessary for the Israelites to protect themselves and their home land. Also, many atheists like to point at verses where it says "and the babies will be bashed against rocks" etc etc. But this is not God commanding them to bash the babies head's against stones, but rather it is a kind of prophecy/prediction of what will happen if they don't listen to God and keep to His ways. God doesn't perform the bashing of the babies, He warned them about it. We are the ones who commits evil - never God. When we argue God's existence, atheists default by saying "look what evil God is." But they easily forget that even through their naturalistic lens, humans are responsible for all the evil in the world, all the suffering. You need to seriously reanalyse what the Old Testament says in context of what us humans knew, not like the Muslims who believe the Quran is the eternal word from God.

[@fss1704]

@@DieSchiss First, he didn't consider pedophily a sin, he didn't consider murder in the name of god a sin, he didn't consider slavery a sin. 2nd: Murder is by definition of the act of killing, you really have no point trying to newspeak for stuff that in practice is the same thing, and if you were to make this argument you would be really no different than that german mid the 20th century. ALSO, you're assuming it was neccessary, but you didn't mention that the necessity was to avoid the god people going to midianite whorehouses. 3RD: i'm not even using this argument, this says more about what you think. 4TH: " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, **AND CREATE EVIL**: I the Lord do all these things." Good luck trying to study excusologetics for that while also trying to explain the existance of evil at the same time as an omnipotent omniscient and omnibenevolent god that does shit to end evil.

[@logan.saige5910]

my last partner is asexual and we still had a good relationship together. we kissed/made out once and then a few days later they told me that they were asexual and just didn’t want to tell me because they thought i would be upset. i admit that sometimes i wanted to kiss them but i’m just a very affectionate person. we found a new way to be physically intimate with each other without sex or kissing. i would never want to have sex with my partner if they didn’t want to. it’s not fun or romantic or anything like that if one person doesn’t want to. i was 100% satisfied with cuddles and them playing with my hair while i rest my head on their lap. we aren’t together anymore but it’s because of a completely different reason. i’m just saying that you don’t need sex to be in a good relationship. i hope that makes sense

[@frozenraspberries1552]

Omg thats so wholesome 😭😭

[@PaulandMorgan]

Might have to react to this😊 Appreciate your calm demeanor.

[@theantibot]

Please feel free! We’d love continued discussion on this!

[@PaulandMorgan]

@@theantibot 😊

[@Saltysad]

No but really, this conversation is EXACTLY what’s needed. Open your hearts and trust your guide, engage with love and let’s see what can happen here that may be what could happen everywhere, eventually, with respect for history and the absent history that has been a constant evolution of understanding. Please. Not for your own legacy, but to usher in a new understanding. No one may say, “the future of engagement was paved by these influencer couples,” but it may be a gate to the yard with a side-door to the future… center yourselves in empathy, and then do this PLEASE.

[@markwasil3198]

Love seeing you react to different videos! It'd be interesting to see you do this both by yourself and with other friends to get different dynamics and perspectives

[@theantibot]

Now there's an idea!

[@Saezimmerman]

The whole segment on being owed sex from a partner was problematic overall, but the idea that "selfless love" would always be pro-sex stood out. Maybe, selfless love means understanding that a partner may not be in a place where sex is a good option. Also, there's nothing sexy about "fine, since you want it so bad, I guess I'll go along with it."

[@kandyappleview]

i'm really glad i clicked on this video! i've seen several commentaries on paul & morgan's content and this one was one of the most respectful, thoughtful, honest, even non-judgmental ones i've seen so far. thank you for this.

[@IzzysTravelDiaries]

It's also interesting to me that it never occurred to anyone that sex also happens when a person is single and not interested in having a partner for sex. Porn and self pleasure take on a different dimension in that context.

[@tallmoth]

i grew up in an evangelical/"non denominational" church and our youth leaders dedicated whole sermons on how evil masturbation and pornorgraphy is. so they'd tell a bunch of 13-17 year olds self pleasure is considered a sin, so hurry up and get married!!! it's fucked up hahaha

[@amandamandamands]

@@tallmoth Yep I thought it was refreshing that the church I went to for a while it was understood that porn was bad, masturbation was OK as long as you weren't using any materials or visualising anyone (unless you were married and then your spouse was OK). It was looked at as getting needed relief. Never had it mentioned like that in a sermon but it was something that was known in the 30+ age range.

[@bigtombowski]

​@@amandamandamands one of them Mark Driscoll doctrines lol

[@annafdd]

I came here to say this. Never watched porn to see how it’s done, I only ever did it because being turned on was pleasant for me at that time. And as the man said, don’t know masturbation, it’s sex with somebody you really love. The man was admittedly a bit of a narcissist, as it later emerged, but the point stands.

[@mikearchibald744]

Just for fun I've watched a few of these christian 'morality' videos and I find it interesting that in all the talk about pornography, its NEVER mentioned what the person in that porn movie may have experienced. One guy said 'ah,they're getting paid" as if that makes everything ok. The circumstance around the individual pornography I think is the ONLY real issue. Its odd that these christian videos see NO problem in the constant barrage of violence that is entertainment, but seeing two people have sex is armageddon.

[@JoHouse533]

I often get self conscious when I see couples that are physically very attractive, because society conditioned me to believe their lives must be perfect. Morgan and Paul help me tremendously by giving a practical example of how you can be attractive but everything can be totally wrong and fucked up.

[@teehee4096]

I appreciate this video, you two are kind in your criticisms and eloquent in your delivery. I hope Paul and Morgan one day come around!

[@Scrimmified]

when I was in highschool I had a christian teacher tell me, at 9 in the morning, in front of a group full of other 14 year old girls, that if I didn't let my future husband have his way with me whenever he wanted that I was abusing him. though it kinda backfired on her because it just made me vow in that moment to never marry a man. also, why is it only selfless love if you force yourself to have sex for your partner but not selfless love for your partner to respect your wishes not to have sex??

[@carly6107]

This is by far the most nuanced and empathetic take on Paul and Morgan’s content that I’ve seen. I really appreciate it.

[@Kingofthenet2]

I agree

[@beanbrewer]

Popular advice I reject: save yourself until marriage

[@fairygodmother139]

You don’t have to be religious to do that fyi

[@playfulpanthress]

I never understood the whole "save yourself for marriage". For one, it only applies to women. So, I hate that. I honestly think it's part of the "keep them ignorant, keep them under control" mindset. That's why translating the bible was wrong and only those of the church could read the bible. Ignorance is easier to control. Part of the reason they murdered women who could read and didn't want to follow that archaic crap.

[@atheistyoda8915]

@@fairygodmother139 True, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a ridiculous and outdated tradition.

[@annarocha3254]

How is this popular advice? Do you mean specially in religious circles?

[@beanbrewer]

@@annarocha3254 yeah that was the context

[@jsevestjanova]

Love the respect given to this! Love the conversation! Thanks for putting the kind of content out there! We were really lacking it in the atheist community ❤

[@kelseytalbott74]

I’m deconstructing, and watch a lot of responses to Paul and Morgan to help me untangle my beliefs, so I really appreciated how nuanced and thoughtful this was. The fact that you didn’t talk down to them and treated them like people instead of just needlessly shitting on them was really refreshing.

[@rorank]

Only five minutes in, and I find that hate videos make me uncomfortable more and more as I’m getting older. I really appreciate y’all going out of your way to clarify what is and isn’t okay as far as commenting on someone else opening their lives up on the internet.

[@iambuhlockay8007]

All I see is a very kind, righteous, and inspiring couple, and Paul and Morgan.

[@snowingonolympus8588]

I appreciate your degree of respect and understanding that you have for other people and for yourselves

[@RowanEBR]

Maybe it's just me, but whether it be on Taylor's channel or Drew's channel, I love listening to both of them converse. The content is always great and their voices are so soothing. If they started a podcast together I would definitely listen to it!

[@neverhowever3231]

It makes me so happy to see you two respond to them in this way; as someone who has experience in Christian spaces, it’s so hard to see people be pointlessly cruel in atheist spaces online. I genuinely can’t engage with a lot of the community because it just seems to turn into personal speculation and these bizarre harassment fixations for people. You can’t even talk about the actual disagreements.

[@jamesparson]

I am an atheist. I wish I could communicate better with Christians. I wish I knew how to be better.

[@yunki_]

@@jamesparson What do you mean? What kind of things have you said? Talk to them how you would talk to anyone you genuinely want to help.

[@annarocha3254]

@@jamesparson Where does the difficulty generally arise for you? I'm a Christian and I don't mind talking to anyone unless they immediately start making assumptions about my life before we've even begin a discussion.

[@jamesparson]

@@annarocha3254 I could bring up a lot of things. But I am just going to bring up one for sake of brevity. The willingness of Christians to excuse criminal behavior within their organizations is not positive. It is treated as a de facto tenet and it is one that I don't want to subscribe to. Let me describe this in a different way. The fact that a given church had to pay $100s of millions to victims of abuse, is not a sign of the need of salvation. It is not a sign of a fallen world. It is a sign religion leads to gullible people who are to indoctrinated to see what is right in front of their eyes. ~~~~~~ I don't know if you want to answer that comment. I am an atheist. Don't quote the Bible. It doesn't carry their weight for me as it does you.

[@annarocha3254]

@@jamesparson I'm a bit confused I don't know that anyone sees the church's restitution to victims of abuse as a sign of salvation. I also think the claim that excusing criminal behavior is a "de facto tenet" of Christianity needs to be backed up a bit. I certainly recognize that abuses have been covered up; much to the shame of many, many Christians. But it is another leap entirely to say that it is de facto.

[@prinsesjuds5761]

❤ the nuance you bring to the discussion of not ‘owing’ sex

[@joshuakeller634]

I think both of y'all are so smart, so sweet, and genuine. Love both of y'all's channels.

[@SwartFrancois]

I have never seen two people who seemingly dislike each other more than Paul and Morgan.

[@rileybaker9224]

i find it very interesting that morgan talked about how having a sexual partner before your spouse will cause problems in your marriage, while admitting that her having a previous sexual partner didn’t cause problems in her marriage

[@karinisvetcool]

Paul is still mad about it so I wouldn say it did cause some

[@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr]

Christianity is all about saying you believe what you know not to be true.

[@fredolsen9227]

Paul and Morgan videos are a form of self-punishment!

[@deeanna8448]

I agree with you about people analyzing body language. They take a single frame in a video and read so much into it.

[@D.A.T.J.]

Y’all have been the most respectful couple reacting to Christian couples’ videos that I think I’ve ever seen. Massive respect.

[@Kingofthenet2]

I agree, some of the others videos have been so hostile forwards P+M. It’s the main reason I still watch this channel now

[@Kindness8811]

I love that you put that MLM study in your description of your channel. 😃

[@janotyx]

Thank you guys for making content like this, I would have loved to watch until the end, but I can't actually listen to Morgan's voice for too long without getting stress induced tinnitus

[@vintagearisen]

I love how respectful you guys are. You can disagree with people without roasting them mercilessly and that's something that's far too rare in discourses like this.

[@thedudeamongmengs2051]

I think a big part of the problem is the "absolutely no mention of sex before marriage" rule. If you absolutely don't want sex and your partner does, it's worth considering whether or not you're with the right person. You don't have to force yourself to do things you don't want to if you and your partner are very compatible. Or at least you won't conflict as often. They seem pretty healthy and I feel like the only thing holding them back from just giving genuinely good advice is the bible and the weird rules

[@ttintagel]

Yeah, I think that even if you don;t want to HAVE se before marriage, it's a good idea to TALK about it. You need to have some way of knowing that you and your future spouse are on the same page about it.

[@Endogal]

It’s so hard to watch these sometimes, but I really enjoy yall’s perspective weighing in on this. I’ll never fully recover from the damage of purity culture. And I’m so grateful I got out of that mindset before my health issues got bad. They say of course there are exceptions, but go right back to the duty of marriage. I can’t imagine how much worse that would have broke me. (Thankfully I have a wonderful partner, and I am managing better with treatment.)

[@turnerturner3281]

Yeah it messed me up pretty badly too. Can you imagine being in a marriage like this? Yikes. Really glad you're doing better, man.

[@m-4136]

you guys are so respectful and measured it's genuinely refreshing!!!! but sidenote girl i've subbed and he already has so much content and i would love to see a lot more of just you and your thoughts xoxo

[@scarlettredding]

This entire video was absolutely brilliant and I agree with every second of it 💯💯💯 I'm so so happy with how you handled it and I really hope this video reaches Paul 🤞💜

[@Angie753]

I’m so happy to see such a productive & nuanced conversation on Paul& Morgan!!!! Thank you!!! Your commentary was so respectful and leaves the door open for conversation

[@SilverDragonJay]

I always find it so interesting when people say "if you watch porn once a month, you're addicted" when we don't apply that standard to anything else. Imagine telling someone you're addicted to alcohol because you have one beer once a month. Imagine telling them you're addicted because you snort a line once a month (I think a lot people would be astounded at your self control in that case.) Even once a week, if you can go the entire week with only a single beer, I don't think anyone would call that 'addiction' but for some reason porn is different? This is why actual psychologists don't look at the frequency of an action, but the measurable, detrimental effects on your life. Like if you start drinking at noon and are basically incapacitated by 3. Like if you have to plan your entire day around if you can drink or not. Like if you are getting absolutely wasted every day and frequently running into legal trouble as a result. Like if you become violent if you don't get your fix. Like if you pursue your addiction to the point of not being able to pay bills or neglecting your health and hygiene. If you look at porn 3 times a day, but it doesn't impact your life and wellbeing, then its not an addiction. Its a habit, but not an addiction. But if you're spending all your time looking at porn to the extent that its all you do some days, your hygiene is deteriorating, and your relationships are in shambles, _then_ you have an addiction.

[@sarahlynn4798]

This is the 1st time I've seen this channel! I've seen genetically modified skeptic before but I didn't realize that Drew's wife had a channel. You guys are a cute couple! I'm glad things worked out for the 2 of you!

[@theflyingspaget]

"Be in despair and go to prison." Make this your new official sign off!

[@daphnedherbert]

Love how you approach handling those with different beliefs with love and understanding. It’s what I hope to emulate as I live my life and it’s wonderful to see others who do care to be kind and do whatever you can to help

[@paulajames6149]

I think it was gracious and kind but there were also digs on the Bible and christians. It was subtle but definately there.

[@yahia9481]

Me 2 I hate that angry type

[@jsmit9484]

"If you are keeping sex from your husband for days even, you're not in a real marriage" The physically hurt me. Poor Morgan

[@zodfanza]

When they say "self discovery" they mean you're allowed to say what you like while your partner is doing things to you. 🙄 You're allowed to have a realisation (that's the "discovery" part) that you like something and you're allowed to articulate (that's the "self" part) that you enjoy something. You're allowed to enjoy what they do to you and tell them if you enjoy something else they're doing more. They're completely redefining what is meant by self discovery in the article so they can still claim to be about self discovery. Evangelicalism does this redefining of words and terms to mean something other than the common use a lot, you kinda got to watch them on this. It often conceals a bunch of dog-whistling as well, like referring to being gay as a "lifestyle".

[@Aljy452]

Thank you for making these videos! I think it's important for people who only know about sex/love/marriage through a biblical perspective to see it through a deconstructed, more practical view. I hope someone who is struggling with this can learn that they don't need to feel shame for just trying to experiment and learn about themselves and/or their partner(s). Also, I assume it was just his awkwardness, but I'm feeling a little cringe about Paul calling Morgan "kiddo" 😬 I definitely had the same facial expression as Taylor when he said that lol

[@evermore331]

Thanks for including ace people! 💜 The thing that gets me about quoting the apostle Paul is that they miss the context. In 1 Cor 7 he makes it clear this is not a commandment (verse 6) and it's just to prevent "sexual immorality" (v2). Paul even follows this up by saying it would be better if everyone could handle being celibate for their entire lives like him (v7). If it's not a commandment then it's really just unqualified marriage advice from some dude who might have been ace or otherwise not straight / sexually repressed himself. He calls it the gift of celibacy but I've personally always interpreted more as him being uninterested, like myself. Anyway, that's my two cents. Context is everything.

[@aazhie]

A lot of historians have noted that Paul seems to be sex repulsed, which is pretty interesting to explore. Just based on his writing, it seems to be quite clear something is different than most other parts if the bible

[@evermore331]

@@aazhie that's very interesting, thanks for sharing!

[@experimentalwrites3403]

Totally agree with you and @aazhie. Paul always struck me as a sex-repulsed asexual too. Even before I knew that, hey, those are legitimate things that one (like myself) can be! Which is why I find allosexual Christians taking sex and relationship advice from him after all this time hilarious, but I am a heathen after all...

[@karenlankford8558]

A lot of people experience a lack of sexual desire during episodes of depression, the start of menopause, or a range of other health issues. Having sex when you find that unappealing and it gives you no pleasure is definitely not good for a relationship.

[@cassynedelisky796]

It’s really funny to me because every Christian couple I know who waited until marriage are now divorced. The people who lived together and had sex pre-marriage are all still together.

[@biedl86]

I really appreciate how you two guys keep on constantly stressing that it is important to be respectful and address ideas rather than person or character. You are spot on. If one wants to have a reasonable conversation and be persuasive, it's absolutely necessary to stick to the ideas and remain respectful.

[@Soviet_Saguaro]

The cringe is strong with Paul and Morgan 😄 but they don't seem to be self-aware so it's slightly charming if their moral compass wasn't so broken

[@shh2491]

Paul and Morgan giving advice is so strange. They have such a limited world view. Great job guys! I enjoyed your commentary.

[@LouLouLion]

You two are truly goals when it comes to communication in a relationship.

[@ecpetty]

It’s interesting to me that even despite the added nuance this time around, there was still more to disagree with! Thanks for taking us through this so we don’t have to give them extra YT traffic. ❤️

[@katiejohnsen8775]

I absolutely love the way you two approach these discussions. It’s so refreshing to see a respectful and mature approach to these kinds of things where you’re truly just providing your insights and opinions without just ripping people you disagree with apart for views. Thank you!

[@theologytherapist]

It was pleasantly surprising to hear about being pro-research to improve your intimacy with your partner! But a lot of the things being rejected here do sound shame-based and rooted in groupthink instead of just personal comfort and boundaries. Talking about sex in terms of religion can be really challenging, but I think you both handled this commentary so well!