How SEER2 Broke The HVAC Industry! SEER2 Explained

[@paulmarc-aurele5508]

I retired from the HVAC industry 5 years ago and think higher efficiency is good to a point. More importantly is keeping ductwork out of attics and building houses better. A house that by design that requires 50% less cooling is better than a cooling system that has expensive motors and controls to gain a little efficiency. On one of my last repairs I remember an ECM blower motor that cost 750 to replace. It never saved the difference in electricity as it failed in 8 years.

[@CD-vb9fi]

Yep, we design everything like trash these days. everything. Cars, houses, computers, and parts for them.... garbage all the way, unless you find rare quality, because the industry likes "recycling" and I don't mean that in the "beneficial" sense. It's not the duct work must be kept out of the attic, its that if the duct work is in the attic, it needs to be conditioned as well. If not... then you are totally right it should be kept out of the attic. The other problem with repairs is the "limitation" with self repair. Things are built to intentionally limit repair by owner. Parts are always changing shape, size, and mounting in slight ways all the time. Mfg's keep stock exclusive to themselves and the "authorize repair" dealers as much as they can. Nothing but corruption and trash... every industry, no question, no doubt.

[@rb8049]

There is no reason an ECM motor should cost this much. The components are cheap. They are just jacking customers because they can.

[@GilmerJohn]

@@rb8049 --- In the fullness of time they may become cheaper as the electronics driven motors can "simulate"" a motor of it's HP and speed on down. The switch between a two speed to a variable speed might just be a jumper change.

[@xeridea]

@@CD-vb9fi I never understood why houses were designed to have the HVAC in the attic. Surely surrounding the unit and all the duct work in a sauna can't be good for efficiency.

[@robertsmith2956]

It is bad because nothing happens in a vacuum. Just look at commifornia, they forced everyone into efficient and electric cars, now they are punishing them for not buying enough gasoline. The power company will NOT take a hit, how will they bribe the officials. You will pay just as much if not more for using a more efficient AC.

[@nothanks960]

So, to summarize. SEER2 was a good change because it more realistically depicts how a system is actually used ( .5 static is still low for most actual installs in the US) thus giving consumers a better idea of how the equipment will actually perform. OEMs have been optimizing for the old unrealistic test and even though they knew the change was coming put off redesign and building the new units until the last minute. This caused some logistical difficulties.

[@sand0can1]

Are you telling me that the installer after installing the system measures if it will pass SEER2? Of course not! What is the complaint about? The condenser size is not an issue the handler is only an issue if you didn’t first measure the homeowner dimensions and got a bigger unit even though there are smaller units.

[@Beastphilosophy]

"Some logistical difficulties" is a bit of an understatement given that no one appears to be able to source an efficient RTU within 20 weeks right now. That said it was a long overdue change given that most people have a filter attached to their HVAC system and at least some ductwork. I can count on one hand the number of houses where I measured less than .5 tesp.

[@The1JBanks]

I design at .5” WC unless the equipment is rated differently.

[@The1JBanks]

@@sand0can1what do you mean pass SEER2? The equipment is rated and that’s that. Most anything people can is upsize the return if even possible. Many supply ducts are not even accessible if between floors.

[@sand0can1]

@@The1JBanksexactly, the seer2 is already set. Then why complain? As to the ductwork I just bought a house with new unit that the duct has cat big holes in it. Why the licensed contractor didn’t fix it but yet complain about seer2? Why is the hvac mafia made so that you can’t buy a single screw from hvac supplier store?

[@seanmccabe5619]

I'm an old man. I remember all off the rivers in my native New England being literal poison, with zero turkeys left, not being able to eat any fish you caught, and if you got a deer once a year you were a hero. Our environment was nothing but poison. In the 80's I moved to Los Angeles. I never saw the stars and the Sun was ALWAYS in a haze. The air smelled. I'm here to say that these environmental rules are GOOD for us! I'm not sorry that environment rules that hold a multi- conglomerate to clean standards might hurt their profit margin. If an industry can't adapt, we don't need it ...but someone will step up. Just like this video is about: a company stepped up and made things happen after the new rules. The laws in this case are important!

[@chdinct6792]

The issue isn’t that we don’t need environmental regulations, it’s an issue of diminishing returns, or cost benefit. Many of the regulations today are going after smaller and smaller incremental benefits at incresaingly higher costs. It’s getting to the point of trying to circumcise a knat.

[@bluegizmo1983]

I bought and installed my own system, with no official hvac training whatsoever. Been working excellent for several years now.

[@michaelmaas5544]

I’m wanting to do the same. Did you just KZbin it? And was it really that easy?

[@Demoralized88]

@@michaelmaas5544 Aside from saving several thousand dollars at a minimum, a well-researched DIY install is literally going to be better and last longer in most cases. Replacing an existing Condenser is extremely simple and same goes for a Furnace that uses the existing vents. HVAC companies are the absolute worst for gouging, and even with massively overpaying you're likely going to get a shitty install and no warranty calls. That said, anyone needing HVAC work should get a lot of quotes and push back on the sales tactics.

[@johnholding107]

I did the same. All from KZbin. Even got my type 1 certification. Yes it was easy. But I’m mechanically inclined so that helped. Pumped down my old unit. Disposed of properly. I soldered my lines instead of brazing. Set my gas pressure. Checked static pressure. Sub cooling and superheat. All the things.

[@HelloThere-jr6gd]

Did you vacuum pump the system?

[@johnholding107]

@@HelloThere-jr6gd absolutely

[@chiefjoseph8154]

Retired HVAC/R tech. My 23 yr old R22 system is still going strong. I stockpiled parts including R22. FJB.

[@JeremySpidle]

FDJT too!

[@JeremySpidle]

...and ESPECIALLY F Boomers who scream and whinge when any change to make the world better for future generations is implemented.

[@Demoralized88]

Chemours or whoever makes R-22 drop-ins that aren't much more expensive than other current production refrigerants. Our mid-2000s Goodman Condenser runs great on R-22, but I was worried about being completely screwed if it ever developed a leak. It's very clean mechanically and physically, not even badly rusted here in Cleveland, and I'd get Window AC units before dealing with HVAC scammers again.

[@whochecksthis]

@@Demoralized88my little brother works for an hvac company in Cleveland, I trained him in Nc, and he has high standards.

[@whochecksthis]

@@Demoralized88keep in mind, the alternative refrigerants need all other refrigerant removed from the system before use, and they are blends of various refrigerants, so, if it ever leaks, whatever refrigerant is left in the system, must be removed before installing additional refrigerant from a leak… Right now, bluon and 422B are the best value alternatives…

[@zachattack83]

One issue affecting the price is what some installers charge it’s ridiculous for a 1500 dollar unit to cost over 4000 to have it installed with no major work to be completed. Speaking on personal experience.

[@Red_Twizzler]

Hvac is ruined by franchise salesman companies

[@texasmade2684]

You get paid for what you know not what you do. Not alot of people know how to properly install a system so they get paid for that.

[@dknowles60]

@@texasmade2684 Packages units are very Easy

[@Heatherder]

Spoken like someone who has never done it

[@texasmade2684]

Ive owned my own AC business for 12 years. Next.

[@johnhaller5851]

Even before SEER 2, my dealer had to remove the fence to get a 3 ton Carrier Infinity system into the side yard. That is not a small unit. But, it probably meet SEER 2 minimums before it was required.

[@JosephWett-vw7zp]

It was also bean counters. I’ve installed tons of Carrier units (pun intended ). Some outdoor units were huge because it was cheaper to have a single row coil and larger cabinet instead of a two row coil and a stronger fan to pull the air thru it.

[@eldoradoboy]

I used to be in the indistry.. its been a cart n mouse game for the last 35 years.. i was around when we went from just opening up the schraeders and letting the charge out to having to recover freson and recycle it.. and then account for every pound we used.. I was brand new in the field then by just a year.. techs that owned their own tools had to buy recovery units and tanks .. luckily the company I worked for was itself a refrigeration manuifacturer wit ha service arm so they built us all recovery units. then with 410A we saw an increase in size of equipment in many cases.. and new equipment once again to handle the higher pressures and deeper vacuums required.. and now again new equipment to handle the mildly flammable refrigerants.. many municipalities are starting to require hybrid or all electric systems for replacement of forced air.. so no longer just A/C and a gas fiurnace, it must be replaced with a heat pump and gas furnace (or electric heat) adding yet more to the end user cost.. friends of mine still in the field are getting less and less pre-emptive or upgrade replacement business.. people are running equipment till it dies.. or requesting repairs vs replacement ..or partial replacement (replace only the bare minimum) or are turning to the local handyman to install minisplits rather than hire an HVAC contractor to put in a whole system (im in ohio still lot of homes without central air).. or they are doing DIY projects.. all of this hurts esp the smaller HVAC contractors ..

[@AJ-ox8xy]

This is so true. The price increases are killing us. The average job we can quote now is like a minimum 9k for an AC or heat pump add on. Which was like a 4k to 6k job just 2 to 3 years ago. Most people now don't care to buy an ac or heat pump anymore because they're just buying portable units instead for their bedrooms and dealing with the heat we get for like 3 months and only worry about heating now as that's what we use primarily here.

[@scottleggejr]

Yep mini splits are end user install and serviceable. 💀

[@AJ-ox8xy]

@@scottleggejr yep. The only side is when client installs it themselves and calls us to either fix it or reinstall it without any warranty coverage. Suddenly it's like half the cost of what it would be for us to install it ourselves.

[@blmartech]

@@AJ-ox8xy installed my central air myself, and still have a warranty. It's not like I need to call anyone to fix it anyway. I can fix anything in it myself, and if need be, I could buy 2 more new units with the money I saved by doing it myself.

[@AJ-ox8xy]

@@blmartech that's awesome. Unfortunately most people are not in your situation. But it's great you're as independent as you are.

[@arthurmoore9488]

@@blmartech People like me barely know how to braise and don't have a nitrogen bottle. The skills required don't look too difficult, but I know I certainly would need more practice with a torch before attempting it myself. KZbin and experts make things look easy, but it's all the little things that us DIYers miss that cause problems. Mind you, I'd still probably try it myself if my AC died and it wasn't stupidly hot out...

[@modquad18]

My GF just got a quote of $25,000 for a 26 SEER Carrier AC/Natural Gas system. I was shocked. It’s a dream install, 1-story house, condenser outside and a straight shot of 12’ for the line set.

[@The1JBanks]

Where ya at. We can get a 17 seer base system for like 10k max.

[@modquad18]

@@The1JBanks she’s in central Illinois. I thought that installed price was ridiculous. And it’s from same contractor that installed a 13 SEER Lennox system in 2008 for $8k. That system sprung a leak while still under warranty and they let it slide until the warranty expired, now they want $25k to upgrade. I told her to ditch that pig. She’s a nurse who works a lot and just too busy to argue 😫

[@AltruisticWarrior]

​@modquad18 should always shop around. Smaller contractors are also a better bet. Goetll quoted us 14.5k, Bobs quoted 7.8k. Same exact equipment and work. One is a national chain with kickback bonuses to the salesmen/workers, the other is local to Las Vegas with a 4 man crew. Obviously went with Bobs and the speed and quality was excellent. They even went and checked all the ducts in hard to access parts of our attic.

[@davidlindgren7605]

get at least 3 bids

[@chubbysumo2230]

@@The1JBanks i got a 21.5 SEER/16.5HSPF system that I installed myself for $7000. its not rocket science, and HVAC companies have been overcharging for decades because people don't realize how easy it is, or think that some license is needed.

[@tomnietz4158]

Love your channel. From what I learned today, many people may need to regress back to window-air conditioners. My California home as 2 x 3.5 ton central systems but 5 years ago I bought a 1 ton room ac which sits in the MBR and vents via a hose to the window. It cost $400 at Costco and I installed it in 5 minutes. At night we shut down the house and just cool the MBR. Off season it rolls into the closet. Great money saver.

[@Jaker788]

Pretty sure an air sucking portable air conditioner is gonna be a lot less efficient than a split system or even just an actual window unit.

[@johngatsby1473]

Yeah....that unit sucks heat into your house from whatever tiny holes or leak areas you have in your house.

[@AJ-ox8xy]

Yep. I've seen so many people going down this route. They just use portable units now because they'd rather pay the extra utility bills over the rapid increase in ac or heat pump add on prices today.

[@ryanyoder7573]

Get a Midea U shaped window unit. It’s an inverter compressor and is basically a mini split in your window.

[@dosgos]

@@ryanyoder7573 Frigidaire makes inverter-compressor window units. Nearly silent and cools great.

[@marklahiff4319]

Maybe this will drive contractors to do a manual J calculation for residential customers. This calculation provides the right size equipment. Contractors near me always oversize. I didn't know that SEER 2 was coming but replaced both furnace and air conditional. I searched a lot to find someone that would do this calculation for me. I told them I was willing to pay. Everyone just said a ton for 500 sq ft. I ended up with more like 850 sq ft per ton. I'm going to have to wait at least one more year to see if my AC is undersized. We only had three 90 degree days this year and not one 91 or over according to Detroit metro.

[@josephgriffin1065]

Normal for Detroit is 13 days over 90, we received a lot of rain though

[@anthonylosego]

If you get a communicating unit, it can run as low as 30% capacity, which can "auto adjust" for oversizing. It's also quite a bit more efficient that way. Like always driving 55mph or lower. When aerodynamic effects go exponential with speed, you have to waste a lot of fuel to drive a car over 55mph. Same with compressors, cycling times, and blowers. My 3 ton unit barely pulls 12A most of the time and keeps the swings extremely low. So going communicating can let you oversize and also have a less tight system. Not ideal, but what ever is?

[@johnhaller5851]

Most people do a lazy Manual J. To do it properly requires information mostly not available after the building was built, and sometimes not even then, including the R-value of the insulation in the wall, the U-value of the windows, and the results of a blower door test. You can find Manual J calculators online, just to look at the kind of input required. Manual S is used to pick the right equipment for the home. Then, they should also do a Manual D to ensure the ducts are sized properly for the selected unit. But no, they will reuse the existing ductwork because no one is paying for new ductwork. In my last house, the return was way undersized, and the poor unit was trying to suck through a straw that was too small, and getting extra air from any hole it could, and the basement was a low pressure zone. Now, to get a permit for a new house, you need to have window specs (among other things) to do the J, S, and D calculations to be sure there is enough space for ductwork in the framing. Typically, a blower door test is required to show air leakage meets the design. A maximum for air changes per hour (ACPH) is 5 to meet International Building Standards. A really good house is under 0.5 ACPH.

[@thewisecracker-rq1pu]

This isn't rocket science. It's always better to slightly under size rather than over size. You want it to work and remove the humidity rather than just cool it off quick and leave it cold and clammy. Also, manual J never takes into account the fact that it is calculated with an empty house when in fact most houses are at least half full of people's stuff which makes a huge difference. SEER 2 is BS, it's the same equipment, just rated differently depending on where it is installed. Modulating equipment is the way to go for larger homes if you can afford it. Bosch makes high quality modulating condensers and I highly recommend them.

[@AudioFanMan]

Manual J does account for occupancy, and in addendum A (Manul J dos and donts) its supposed to be bedrooms +1 so a 4 bedroom house would be 5 occupants. And those occupants should be located in the home where they might be on a design day about 5PM not necessarily the bedrooms. @@thewisecracker-rq1pu

[@KPHVAC]

I'm in residential HVAC design and sales. SEER2 was a bit confusing but not a big deal. It did make the most basic systems now available more expensive.

[@dknowles60]

wrong it is a big deal

[@shenmisheshou7002]

Everyone said that these changed made AC more expensive, but where is the evidence of that? The cost of living and the demand for higher salaries by workers, higher cost of health care, insurance, and energy, the supply chain, cost of materials, and shipping have far more to do with pricing than the change from SEER to SEER2. The engineering and design changes to get to SEER2 probably had a minimal impact on the price of the equipment.

[@dknowles60]

i @@shenmisheshou7002 i see google is to hard for you to handle

[@ch3vy327]

@@shenmisheshou7002basically manufactures just moved there systems Down in the latter. A 15 seer system was mid tier. That same 15 seer system is now labeled 14 seer2 budget tier with a mid tier price. No need for extreme redesign when you can just relabel the systems.

[@shenmisheshou7002]

@@ch3vy327 I it is labeled as SEER 14 because that is a more accurate description. SEER used to be tested with .1 w.g. static pressure (essentially no supply or return duct, so no pressure losses). Seer 2 uses .5 w.g. to better reflect the real world static pressure. A 14 SEER system from 5 years ago would really be lower if measured by today's standards. so the equipment is not really the same. My 4 ton 16.5 seer 2 stage has noticeably larger coils both at the condenser and the evaporator than the 3.5 ton it replaced, but 80% of the time, it is only running at 75% (3 ton). While it is not hugely less expensive to run than the old 15 SEER 1 system, it did not cost that much more than a new 3.5 ton would have cost. Payback is only 8 years, and the unit will probably last about 12 to 15 years. Now that being said, the cost step between single stage and 2 stange is pretty small, but the cost jump to a full inverter system is very high and seems unjustified to me. I am getting ready to build a new house and I am not sure that I can justify the cost of a variable speed heat pump over at 2 stage AC and conventional gas heater.

[@dwmcever]

My 3 year old 3 Ton Goodman Unit, like the one in your cover, runs like a champ , has a measured EER of 14.5 , and keeps my house coolin our long Texas Summers. Even on the Hottest days with temps of 115f then thing gets to temp and cycles .

[@picklerix6162]

Yeah, my Goodman 16 SEER equipment was installed right before the pandemic by myself. It has been running great and my summer and winter electric bills have really dropped.

[@bbb8182]

I hired an HVAC company (who was OK in general) to replace my furnace. To save time connecting to the existing metal duct work, they put two tight, 90 degree elbows right at the main air output for all the house vents. I had read that was a no-no so I asked them to replace the 90's with two 45's which they did. Body language and a 3 hour delay told me it had to be hand-fabricated so ouch but it taught me I could know enough to understand the basics.

[@jerrylockhart3069]

I’ll stick with my 20 year old unit works fine. If it breaks again, I’ll fix it myself .I need to find another one just like it. I’ll stay with r22. Thank you.❤

[@ultrastoat3298]

Continue to lose money with rising energy costs. 😂

[@maness2112]

Me too!

[@dknowles60]

nice lie@@ultrastoat3298

[@Demoralized88]

Our mid 2000s Amana 13 SEER (Goodman) 2-ton AC works well still on R-22 and is in good shape physically, but the thought of a leak losing the precious R-22 was scary. An R-22 refill is close to the cost of a new basic condenser for anyone who doesn't know, but In trying to research what other refrigerants I could DIY use to replace R-22, I found out that they make direct-replacement refrigerants since R-22 is basically nonexistant anymore. The names are weird, like R407a or something not easy to remember, but it's a way better option to repair a leak and use those than replacement units if the condenser is still solid.

[@ZERO-F2G-]

@@Demoralized88 You could DIY maybe, but you have a leak, do you have the means to trace the leak? Do you have the equipment to recover the remaining charge? You cannot repair a leak with refrigerant still in the system, and you cannot legally vent it. So you found the leak, where is it? is it a copper to copper joint? or is it copper to aluminum joint? Can it be re brazed without damage to other components? Do you have the tools needed to fix it? If you fixed the leak, Do you own a vacuum pump and a micron gauge to evacuate the air and moisture after the repair? How will you recharge the lost refrigerant after the repair? Buy manufacturers weight? Or will you go by super-heat, or sub-cooling charge methods? do you possess the instruments and knowlege to use either method? In my 36 years of HVAC I would say R-22 is generally the best residential refrigerant, but the commies outlawed it, and the last 30 lbs. jug I purchased was just under 1700 bucks, R-410A was the replacement and it was billed as (("eco-friendly")) but the commies have now decided its not. So starting in 2025 we will switch to the new (("eco-friendly")) refrigerant until the commies decide its not. So yeah its expensive, but don't blame it on HVAC contractor greed, blame your communist government.

[@canyondan]

Good reason to buy window units and cool the areas your in instead of the whole house. When a window unit breaks just replace it with a new one instead of paying an outrageous service call fee which is usually more than the cost of a new window unit a/c.

[@roaddog7793]

That works for me the last a c repairman I called knew less than I know so I did away with them

[@randomvideosn0where]

They are noisy and less efficient overall. Mini splits are amazing!

[@canyondan]

agreed, however, I am running a couple of inverter window a/c units that are very efficient. @@randomvideosn0where

[@rayzerot]

​@@randomvideosn0whereNot for Midea U-shaped window AC's. They're so well designed The house's window goes down inside the middle of the unit so that the loud compressor and condenser motor get put on the outside of the house like a regular split system. It's so quiet that we don't even need to turn the TV up when it turns on. They also have inverter tech so they're as efficient as some regular sized systems. I've got 2 at my house and I'm a HVAC tech lol

[@randomvideosn0where]

@@rayzerot Those are absurdly efficient for window units! Do they also function as a heat pump? You still lose a window somewhat but the ease of install...

[@JosephArata]

Seer isn't going to fix old homes with incredibly poorly designed duct systems, which is actually the majority in most larger cities with older neighborhoods with homes built 60+ years ago. Most of these people who own or rent these homes aren't going to be able to afford to redo the duct work to fix the problems with hot/cold spots in the house. An oversized piece of equipment or more efficient one won't fix a distinct lack of return ducting from multiple different rooms.

[@craigescapeddetroit5198]

Mini split systems may be a very good alternative in some situations.

[@Rico-oy3dc]

That is the goal and what the rest of the world does, especially Asia and Europe.

[@blmartech]

Problem is the contractors around here are charging ridiculous amounts to install the mini splits

[@karmendimas5274]

@@blmartech do what more and more people are doing, buy your own equipment and have someone install it, It can be a challenge to find someone to install it, but you will find someone, and its more then worth it, put these GOUGERS OUT OF BUSINESS! THEY DESERVE IT RICHLY! I bought a universal ducted whole house heat pump and had a licensed hvac company install it, worked out great!

[@randomvideosn0where]

@@blmartechGet the Mrcool DIY. Costco has a pretty good discount on them. I got the 115V and wired it to a normal outlet plug (yeah it is not "perfect" but it is a disconnect and rated to handle the power so...) install took only 4 hours even with no help and my stupid decision to route the lines through interior 3.5" wall cavity and through cabinets, into my crawl space.

[@TheUprightLuthier-1959]

@@blmartech Contractors should work for free? Price of EVERYTHING is up. How can working men support their families? You get to sit home and do nothing and I have to come and perform service for your privileged ass for free? GFY

[@garypoplin4599]

Excellent, very well laid-out presentation! When I saw the title to your video in my feed, I thought, “Boring!” But, I’m glad I watched this informative and well thought out post. Amazing how much of a difference the government can make in our economy just by changing a mandated calculation by four tenths of an inch of water column. You alluded to the phase-down of R410a. I already knew about that; but, I wasn’t paying a lot of attention to SEER until now! Remember, _all_ this is in the name of global warming?

[@davidgapp1457]

We have a single level house in Phoenix, Arizona. The 2 HVAC unit are nominally SEER 14. However, the duct work in the attic is a disgrace. ALL of the insulation is flexible hose rated at R-6. How much you ask? Well, I painstakingly measure it. We have, for our 2,750 sq ft house, a total of 186 yards of ducting. Keep in mind it is quite normal for attic space in Phoenix to range between 120 and 140 deg F between the months of June through September. When you crunch the numbers, and assuming a target temperature of 80 deg F, more than 1/3rd of the energy used by the HVAC is lost directly to the attic space. In peak months, or if you lower the target temperature, the losses are worse. Much worse. Set a temperature of 76 deg F and almost 1/2 of the energy is lost to the attic. That HVAC engineers, during construction, are allowed to install such a shoddy system is a simply wicked. Chalk it up to almost non-existent building standards. So what did we do? Well retrofitting the house with internal ducting (ducting that is inside the cooled space) was impractical both from a cost and engineering perspective. So what we did was install SEER 23 mini-split systems to all the closed spaces (such as bedrooms, office, bathroom areas). Then we simplified the ducting in the attic and finally installed a single, top tier Carrier Infinity system (nominally around a 22 SEER2 solution). We then insulated the remaining ducts using R22 lagging. This was an affordable solution, not least because I installed all the mini-split systems myself. The net result was that our total electric bill for the summer months was slashed in half, meaning the HVAC component was cut by more than 60%. Not only that, the Carrier is a very, very quiet machine. The original Goodman units (2 of them rated at 4 ton each) were positioned directly outside two of the smaller bedrooms - the noise was unbearable. By comparison the Carrier runs almost silent and loses the unpleasant 'start up' noise guaranteed to wake the dead. It is painful to speculate how much energy is wasted in Arizona every year. I wish our house were the exception, but really it isn't. However, a 2 level house will always be a much better proposition for the same square footage, because at least half the duct work will be internal (but often more). Single level house in Arizona are a disaster. As for SEER2. Well from an Arizona perspective, the numbers are still something of a joke. It is frustrating that WWII era technologies are still allowed. When will we join the 21st century I wonder?????

[@althouse2]

All you had to do is insulate the attic with foam, as i did my 26yr. old lennox rooftop HP r22 keeps on a chugging and my bills dropped 50% and I went from 80°set pt. to 77° set pt. My attic temp dropped from 140° avg to 90° avg and I store stuff in attic now w/o worrying about dry rot. Unit is 3.5 ton 1453sq.ft. dual pane widows too, bills used to be $1100 for jun,jul,aug, now $550

[@davidgapp1457]

@@althouse2 Nah. Wouldn't even remotely work. As for our bills, post modification, our all electric house, non-balanced payments, means we are paying around $275 a month on a 2,750 sq ft house. The attic is A frame so to make any difference we'd need to insulate between the roof tiles and the A beams, with some kind of lining to keep the foam in place. I would be interested to know how you did that. Also, the ducting is flexible hose, suspended by straps, from the A beams. I've discussed with builders what it would take to resolve the problems. The cheapest quote I got was $85,000.

[@adambergmann7716]

You may see the cost come in other ways now like cleaning the blowers and esp coils that get really dirty easily, or more equipment t to fail

[@Sidicas]

It blows my mind that they route any hvac systems througn unconditioned space.. In my house the basement is cooler in summer and warmer in winter and all my hvac comes up from the basement. Its so nice down there I should put up drywall and make some rooms.

[@TheGuruStud]

Attic is supposed to be conditioned in new houses if HVAC is there.

[@nicklockard]

Phoenix, Arizona checking in: SEER is pretty meaningless to me. We don't have much of a shoulder season, only full blast or no AC, mostly. The real travesty is US building codes don't require hardly any insulation. That hurts the pocketbook. Stick built hones in America are shoddy dogfood. Update: I installed a 21.5 SEER, 12.5 EER, 4 zone, 4.75 tons chilling minisplit in my home's upstairs. The comfort and quiet operation is so nice.

[@paulmryglod4802]

I build houses and the minimum code has improved but if houses were cars, we'd be driving new 1985 type cars. The big national builders keep code to the bare minimum for profit margins.

[@ericnewton5720]

4.5 tons? That’s a lot. What’s your sq ft?

[@bikerbobcat]

My tiny Cape Cod house just outside DC was built in 1943 and doing some minor renovation upstairs discovered that the gable end walls just don't have any insulation. Air barely reaches through the duct up there and we're thinking of mini splits. I love their efficiency and quiet but not adding additional whole systems. Good times. :/

[@Bretware904]

Clueless

[@JasonTeach]

Cy is a home inspector in Arizona. The stuff he shows is just insane. Even if you try to have your home built to be efficient the builders just lie about it. www.youtube.com/@cyfyhomeinspections

[@AaronPowellvox]

Great video. There is so much information to keep up with in our industry. The cost of these new systems has caused a lot of sticker shock for sure.

[@scottleggejr]

It's to combat the rising energy costs. Total cost of ownership is getting out of hand.

[@brodriguez11000]

Downsize the housing (tiny house movement) and the rest follows.

[@scottleggejr]

@@brodriguez11000 nah man. My dogs get gas when they eat the plants in the yard and I'm not breathing that shit in. Fix the laws to work within the confines of established, not the other way around. I'm not paying taxes to make my life worse 🤣

[@pctrashtalk2069]

How about a quote of 12000$ for a new 3 ton system in FL. They don't want to repair the old systems and want to sell you the new. $$

[@AaronPowellvox]

@@pctrashtalk2069 12k is a bit on the high side but it depends on where the unit is in the house and what brand equipment and efficiency of that system.

[@mgregggphone]

This change also helps explains why mini split units are generally more efficient. Because they are.

[@martinsaunders7925]

Higher efficiency in many areas of engineering is becoming like sports. It takes a lot of time,money and effort to get the next one hundredth of a second to win the race. Once politics controls engineering the consumer is duct Ed. It's now getting so expensive that a savvy consumer can get certified and build an " experimental " unit. Form a co op to "test" variants of a design.

[@philborer877]

There's always cost increase and chaos when upgrading manufacturing systems. But as the systems become more ubiquitous costs come down and quality goes up. That holds true for every industry. I would rather have a higher efficient system than not. I'm in the construction industry and I get very irritated with contractors and manufacturers who are always trying to maintain the status quo. I just purchased a brand new Bryant heat pump that heats my house in Minnesota down to 12 below zero Fahrenheit. That's all due to regulations pushing the industries to improve their products. I love it.

[@dknowles60]

wrong

[@grandinosour]

All government regulations do is force the manufacturer into creating a forced invention and just making it work, resulting in low quality. Competition between manufacturers is what makes a good quality product with outcomes that the consumer really wants at a fair price. If you want something with all the bells and whistles, then you get this model here... If you want something that is bare bones and not so efficient, but will out last the life of the house...then that model over there is for you. Gooberment has no business determining what standards an HVAC system should be built. For the price being paid for HVAC systems and not lasting nearly as long than an average car is shameful, considering a car is much more complicated and the HVAC machine doesn't even have to move around.

[@desertmodern7638]

Fascinating. It sounds like this is generally for the better, but is having real impacts near term. I have a mid-century (1958) home in Phoenix with the air handler for the 5-ton system in an exceptionally tight attic area. It's twenty years old and I can see the writing on the wall. The system is going to need an expensive reconfiguration with the air handler brought down to floor level, but where exactly I don't know. There's no natural place for it.

[@JoshTeasley]

If a business went under over the SEER2 change then they were doomed to begin with. SEER2 was not a huge deal at all, and is good for the industry since the lab testing for SEER was wildly inaccurate, and 99% of systems installed were never running close to their rated efficiency.

[@steveseattle6791]

Yeah, doubling the price of anything is indeed a huge deal. No one cares about the lab tests, they care how much it costs to get their AC replaced and working correctly.

[@MM-fq9gi]

Correct about the hole in your ceiling maybe being too small for the replacement equipment 😅. I was fortunate that cutting wasn't needed, just removal of the trim. I did a ca$h deal to replace my 3.5 ton unit, Bryant system, Payne crate, everything for $7800. I quit trying to determine what the installers profit margin was, definitely good but he assumed the responsibility for recovery, disposal etc of the old Trane XR that was 20 years old.

[@Pickle312]

I had to go through 4 different manufacturers to find one that had an air handler that would fit in the existing location since most of the companies have increased the size of the units.

[@user-zc2hk3cs6v]

Great tax breaks on higher efficiency heat pump units.... the seer requirements are still pretty low for these central air systems... The heat pumps I am installing are mostly mid20 seer

[@user-dr2pg8fk2i]

Efficiency for the HVAC industry as a whole is a joke.

[@user-zc2hk3cs6v]

@@user-dr2pg8fk2i Not those ductless mini splits, I run my old house in Maine off just ductless units and it is cheaper than burning anything but firewood, even with some of the highest power prices in the country.

[@user-dr2pg8fk2i]

@@user-zc2hk3cs6v Unfortunately people are bitching and whining about having to pay for more efficiency, and the bulk of units being installed in the hottest parts of the country are still sub-15 SEER. It's a joke by an industry looking to make fast money and high margins.

[@JamesMCrutchley]

I don't live in the USA. Where I am AC is a luxury item only for the rich. We have temps that hit mid 90's to 115 for the summer here. I'm in Canada where the weather used to never get this hot. But if you a renter your only option is portable AC's in almost every scenario. Most landlords will not allow it under any conditions. They say the homes are not designed to handle AC. Even If I am paying the electric bill I have been evicted multiple times for daring to use an AC unit. I have been in a few places with central AC advertised but it was actually disabled and inoperative. In every case the landlord indicated it required maintenance and would cost too much to fix. I remember at least one place that was built that year that I moved into which advertised AC to keep your summers cool and then finding out it was disabled/inop and would not be turned. Landlord got very aggressive and asked if my family were wimps for wanting it. Mentioning it was listed in rental agreement he started sending eviction notices every month till we got tired of fighting it.

[@sewerrat7612]

Considered a luxury in the usa but alot of homes gave them. Rentals in my area don't generally have AC but never heard of not being allowed a windows unit.

[@steveseattle6791]

They are lying about the homes not being able to handle it. 1500 watts is 1500 watts, doesn't matter if its a portable AC or a hairdryer. It's because Canada is currently run by people who would like to take you back to the stone ages, because they think it's better for the environment for some reason. Yet they still can't tell you why the last ice age ended....

[@3OBTPA]

5 years ago i changed a 2001 S10 and installed a S14 thinking it would save energy. Now that the newer unit runs less to cool the home, the humidity has risen and now i have scary mold growing in the ducts.

[@Vazzini42]

It's fast cycling and overpowered for the space. It doesn't run long enough to clear the condensation before the temp hits the target. Get a separate dehumidifier or replace with a properly sized unit.

[@Demoralized88]

Did they happen to install (upsell) a whole-house Humidifier when you bought the new Condenser? Mold growth in the ducts ain't normal for even the preposterously oversized units that HVAC companies use, as even pretty low duty-cycle AC will remove a good deal of humidity. I very much doubt your install was done correctly, and you likely have a humidifer running, EVAP drain clogged, or some other problem from the install. My guess is that they screwed up the condensation drain or something on the Evap Coil, and you probably have water pooling in your furnace. Mold doesn't start forming everywhere even if you had the windows open constantly and no AC, so you MUST have water being ADDED to your system from something like mentioned.

[@mpitogo1978]

I have two Trane 25 SEER units, 5 and 3 ton units. Both are pretty efficient and quiet. I like the variable cooling.

[@Duey_diditGarage]

Im having to deal with this now I work as an apartment maint supervisor and my new property that opens in a month was forced to go with the new Goodmans I believe ar R32 ive yet to lay eyes on em since they are installing them in 2 weeks but I have a class to learn more on em the 10th of OCT

[@bret9741]

I build and remodel homes. I’ve always installed the Carrier Infinity HVAC systems for N climate. We use the 98.8 furnace, 26 SEER AC and then use 4-6 zones. We build our homes to need ACH50 of 1.0 or lower. So we install an appropriate size ERV. I’ve found these systems make the home very very comfortable and in remodels we often see a 50%+ reduction in energy usage. We just started installing the bi-fuel geo thermal. It allows both electric and natural gas usage.

[@davidlindgren7605]

where you located? Michigan?

[@VisionStance]

I noticed that you failed to mention the PSC Blower Motors in the Old Furnaces have been outlawed. Primarily because they could not overcome the Static Pressure of Spiral Ductwork. The High torque Motors as you know have many more speeds to accomplish this. In addition, I wish you would talk about the dangers of Duct Board Plenums and Trunk lines. Duct Board has been classified as a possible carcinogen by the WHO more than 25 Years ago. It has been outlawed in 6 States in the Union and cannot be used in Commercial applications in many Municipalities. However, it is still used in residential applications. It cannot be cleaned and the Fiberglas is similar to asbestos fibers. Plus, it cannot support some duct connections over long periods of time as gravity has its way with it. Nasty stuff! I noticed a nice HVAC System in your Video that showed Duct Board as the Plenum Materials. Very bad. Shame Shame Shame! A large number of Equipment Products could meet the New SEER2 Requirement without any actual changes, although they had to undergo new certification for AHRI.

[@garrettmillard525]

Let's be clear... industry has known that SEER2 was coming in 2023 since 2016... let's not pretend that manufacturers couldn't have been more proactive in sourcing parts. Sounds a whole lot like everyone waited till the last minute and then started competing with each other for the fixed quantity of parts. In any event, I wish more regulatory focus would be on ensuring the duct work is installed properly and providing incentives for replacing terribly inefficient older systems, likely leaking refrigerant, instead of making the small number of new systems marginally more efficient and even more expensive so people wait longer and longer to replace their old system.

[@massa-blasta]

I am in South Louisiana and do not trust the SEER2 rating, in this heat. Old R22 units are far superior for cooling. Better energy efficiency is great, but not when you sacrifice the ability of the device to provide adequate cooling in hot temperatures.

[@integr8er66]

So what you are saying is the systems just have to be over sized. Not that they can't cool, just that the ratings are not consistent with older units. So in short it doesn't save a damn thing, and it costs more money

[@HousesBuiltTiny]

Excellent excellent educational skills thank you so much for this video. I do have a question. I'm in a 1800 square foot three bedroom home and I'm ready to get the entire system replaced ductwork and everything. I had a company come out and give me an estimate but the truth is is I really don't know what questions to ask. Could you do a video for customers to teach us what questions to ask from different contractors when receiving estimates? You are brilliant man and I'm sure you would know exactly the top 10 things we should ask and look for thank you in advance

[@rnordquest]

The payback time is twice the equipment useful life.

[@new2000car]

Exactly, where no one saves, including the planet. These overly complicated machines cause more harm to the environment as they take more resources to manufacture, break more often, causing further environmental harm, and homes are more humid, etc.

[@The1JBanks]

Yup that’s why I only install merit or base systems. The best upgrade you can get is possibly a variable speed blower motor but once you factor in the cost for a 2 stage compressor unit the cost just doesn’t make sense. All the energy saving you get go out the window when you have one major component fail.

[@stevekamitsis1327]

Steve in Florida caught your video and enjoyed it thank you. You are totally right ,but I believe all HVAC equipment now made is all NOT made well. I have a 3 year old unit from a top manufacturer and the outside fan motor is rusting out. I contacted manufacturer, who intern gave me a very poor response

[@anthonylosego]

They are not making them to last 15 years because they'll not be serviceable in a couple years. HVAC has entered the "throw it away and put in a new one" stage.

[@garrettmillard525]

Why not? Due to compressor complexity?@@anthonylosego

[@GregScavezze]

I got a bid on a 5 ton Furnace and AC Package at the end of 2021 for $8.5k. We were able to limp our existing system along for a couple more years so we could save some $$. Same unit 2.5 years later and the same company came back in and bid $15k! Almost 100% difference? WTH?

[@arthouston7361]

I am so thankful that I don’t do any residential work at all, and the last new piece of equipment that I had to mount on a roof was over a year ago….and I am hoping that I never have to mount another new piece of equipment again before I retire……10 years from now. And all you union guys……. you just remind yourself that this is what you voted for.

[@Rico-oy3dc]

There is nothing to do with unions. The world demands reducing energy use, and the USA thinks it is exempt.

[@paulrozinski1488]

Most of the new, larger condensers I’ve seen are made taller rather than wider to try and alleviate access problems. Personally, I’m trying to hold off replacing my 2 units until that new 2025 refrigerant standard goes into effect. Does anyone know if this new refrigerant will be EPA regulated ??? I guess it’s a silly question but I’ll ask it anyway. I mean look at R-410A , it started out being available without an EPA 608 Cert. then the EPA stepped in. Lots of great information in this video, thanks again.👍👍👍👍

[@danlazz5842]

You can't get any without a an epa license

[@Jaker788]

Even if you get a 410a system now, you'd be able to get refrigerant 10 years from now without issue. Ideally though you shouldn't really be needing any replacement if it was done well and passed a year with no loss.

[@Rico-oy3dc]

​@@Jaker788That is an assumption. I doubt it as the mandates tightening on GWP refrigerants.

[@Jaker788]

@@Rico-oy3dc Not really an assumption, the roadmap is out there. 410a will still be produced for quite a while even as new manufactured units won't have it. It's going to take a long time before 410a is hard to come by and before production is completely stopped. You really shouldn't be having any leaks in the first place though that requires so much. Maybe at the 10 year mark you have enough loss through permeation to get a couple ounces of top up, but leaks shouldn't happen with a good install. If you really worry about not being able to get a few pounds of 410a at a good price, 454b is so close to 410a in volumetric capacity and everything else that units coming out now can be retrofitted with just a different expansion valve brazed in and could even get away without that change. You may require an air handler with a leak mitigation system support, Carrier and Bryant air handlers currently are ready to accept the flame/leak mitigation for 454b.

[@karmendimas5274]

there is NO need to 'hold off' on waiting for the so called '2025 refrigerant standard goes into effect' there is NO benefit to you on that!

[@rcinfla9017]

Increasing efficiency by enlarging condenser and/or evaporator usually comes with larger refrigerant loads which causes other issues unless microchannel heat exchangers are used, which are more 'delicate'.

[@jgallone]

I just had a new AC system installed this week, replacing a 25 year old, 3.5 ton, 10 seer unit of the same brand (Payne). I now have a better understanding of why the condenser unit outside is quite a bit larger than the old one. Thanks for explaining this in such detail. I have several years' worth of electrical usage/cost so I will be curious how much of a difference the supposed efficiency improvement makes...and will the new system actually last.

[@scottdaniels5976]

My Carrier 2 ton 14.3 SEER2 heat pump cost me $8671(inc replacing the supply & return plenums & new copper) in the Orlando Area. 1st thing I notice my humidity sucks (62% at 78F) compared to my old unit (14 SEER Straight Cool 2 ton Rheem; 8yrs old) I'm being told because the evap coil is dirty it makes to coil colder thus the humidity is less. My manual J came in at 1.92 Tons. Also was told since my ductwork is from 1975 is also cause of high humidity too.

[@dunnar90]

The installer put in a slightly larger coil. This will draw heat out of you home very quickly, but it will not dehumidify. Your equipment will "cool" your space faster, but it is going to feel humid.

[@roybatty6368]

Something wrong. Carrier's don't have problems like that. Great product!

[@marcelosantana9311]

You paid way too much in my opinion. Probably one of the big companies in the area. The companies I usually it would cost you around $4300 a Bryant and maybe $500-$1000 for Carrier. At the end of the day they are almost the same. As far as the system not removing the humidity, I believe the tech may have left the air handler blower at the highest setting. It will cool the house too fast and not remove enough of the moisture. Ask them to come back and reduce the speed and should get a lot better. I had similar issue in some properties before. Good luck.

[@karmendimas5274]

@@roybatty6368 brand does not matter!

[@roybatty6368]

@@karmendimas5274 Carrier is better quality and is best

[@mikahundin]

Video summary [00:00:00][^1^][1] - [00:14:01][^2^][2]: This video explains how the new SEER2 standard for HVAC systems has impacted the industry, the manufacturers, the contractors, and the customers. It covers the history of SEER, the changes in the testing procedures, the challenges in the supply chain, and the installation issues. **Highlights**: + [00:00:00][^3^][3] **The purpose and definition of SEER** * Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio * Average energy consumption over the cooling season * Higher SEER means more energy efficient + [00:01:03][^4^][4] **The history of SEER standards** * Increased from 10 to 13 in 2006 * Increased from 13 to 14 in 2015 * Increased from 14 to 15 in 2023 + [00:02:24][^5^][5] **The changes in the testing procedures** * New M1 test for SEER2 * Increased external static pressure from 0.1 to 0.5 * More realistic representation of ductwork + [00:05:57][^6^][6] **The impact on the HVAC industry** * Many product lines had to be redesigned * Increased coil and condenser sizes * Upgraded blower motors and compressors * Different approaches by different manufacturers + [00:08:37][^7^][7] **The supply chain issues** * Many sub-manufacturers involved in the process * Product delays and shortages * Some brands managed better than others + [00:11:54][^8^][8] **The installation issues** * Older homes not designed for larger equipment * Difficulty in fitting equipment in closets and attics * Issues with plenums and condensers * Carrier designed smaller footprint equipment

[@mikahundin]

Seer2 is a new standard for measuring the energy efficiency of HVAC systems, based on the M1 testing procedures that account for the ductwork and external static pressure. This means that the HVAC industry had to redesign their equipment to meet the new requirements, which resulted in larger, more expensive, and more difficult to install systems. However, it also means that the Seer2 ratings are more realistic and accurate than the old Seer ratings, and that the systems are more environmentally friendly.

[@funnycatvideos5490]

is it really more environmentally friendly you have to change it out more often?

[@yolo_burrito]

The cost difference between a single/two-stage and VFDs is getting smaller. You almost might as well go with an 18 seer VFD and get all the comfort and efficiency benefits with a marginal increase in expense.

[@buzzkill4623]

indeed...I have a 17 seer 2stg and I can never go back to a single stage

[@yolo_burrito]

@@buzzkill4623 I have the 18 Full VFD and comfort and sound are so much better. Also I can run my entire house on a 5500w inverter. The VFD has no inrush current. Could’ve spent a few thousand less on a single stage but I’d need a $20,000 generator to start it instead of a $4000 inverter.

[@kevinheuvel7454]

It's about time the HVAC becomes more efficient the technology has been out there for years to do it ,and the end user will recoup any extra cost in energy saving in a several years of operation . I got rid of my central air system all together in my house and put in three independant mini split system with inverter powered variable speed DC compressors rated at above 21 seer the cost was less then a single central air unit and if you ever have problems with one you have two other independent units to keep the house cool plus we save money because we rarely run one unit for the guest bedrooms.

[@steveseattle6791]

Flat out false. Going from a $5k replacement to a $10k replacement is absolutely not recouped in short order. May be +15 years, if ever.

[@kevinheuvel7454]

@@steveseattle6791 you should price out minispilts the are very reasonable compared to central air

[@ChuckCassadyYT]

I installed a 28 seer2 minisplit myself from signature solar. It cost $1400 and is 12kbtu. Was easy to find and only a bit more than the 19 seer units I used to buy. I don’t get the problem. There was plenty of warning and this unit is easily 30% more efficient which is incredibly large difference. Bunch of crybabies here. Efficiency kicks ass

[@pinolanuts69]

Far less reliable. Parts are more expensive and less readily available. Coupled that with the bad quality of newer equipment(specifically leaking coils) and you've got a recipe for disaster.

[@AJ-ox8xy]

The way they're making these systems now is going to decrease the total life of these systems. Instead of a system lasting 15 to 25 years. These systems are gonna last 8 to 15 years old. Which means you'll need to replace it more often than in the past.

[@scottleggejr]

Welcome to third world engineering 😂 my wife is a realtor and people won't buy these hack diy minisplits. I sure as shit wouldn't buy a home with mini splits.

[@AJ-ox8xy]

@@scottleggejr minisplits are great if installed correctly and professionally. I have minisplits in my home I built myself. After 10 years it is still going strong. But I'm meticulous about the maintenance I do on it, which is every 6 months or right before demand seasons like summer and winter.

[@scottleggejr]

@@AJ-ox8xy I think they look low-rent or third world because that's where they are...

[@ashbucharon8263]

P.S. - Think about it - all this government "help for the consumer" actually benefits the manufacturers since we have to keep replacing our air conditioners for all new equipment every time they change the freon requirements or the SEER rating. Consumers need to learn about what they are buying instead of thinking they can rely on the government to do their job.

[@phishfood]

This was an interesting video but it kind of sounded like they were surprised by the change. Did they not have years of notice to prepare, retool, and test the new units?

[@cheekybastard99]

They probably spent the time trying to lobby against the change and lost.

[@jimharper2604]

I built my own home and did geothermal. Additionally, I designed the system so that there was ZERO ductwork in the attic. No loss, no gain....

[@LourdVicious]

This rule was proposed and published Jan 5, 2017, with the same effective date of 1-1-23. Any industry failures are just that…industry failures. They had SIX WHOLE EFFIN YEARS to get it right. If they didn’t get it right that’s because they were effin around for most of those six. By your own admission, it looks Carrier did the best work to comply with regs. They had units designed to the standard instead of in reaction to the standard. Kudos to them. My next unit will probably be their Infinity series 25VNA4 heat pump unit at 22 SEER2. Great channel. Great info.

[@arcticarrowhvacr]

Efficiency is a crock of shit. The higher the SEER, everything you save on the electric bill you spend on repairs or replacement. Single stage and reciprocating compressors for me.

[@MrBgwolf]

I am retired now from the industry. I never cared for Carrier, they did make good stuff how ever in the commercial industry they put to many bells and whistles on them that most of the time was the problem (they failed a lot). I use to wish I could have designed there controls panels . That being said aside from that the equipment was pretty good. Some of the time I would have to replace new valves in the compressors but not often, and If I had to replace a compressor they where set up so that wasn't to bad ether.

[@ssaraccoii]

Had an older unit that was simple and dependable. R-22, Mercury capsule mechanical thermostat, thermostat picked a control relay. The control relay picked the blower contactor and energized the outside compressor/fan circuit contactor. There was a solid-state 3 minute fixed timer in series with the contactor coil circuit. It just ran and ran and ran. Only lost a condenser fan once. That was an impressive unit, and it was a Carrier installed in the 70’s/80’s, I think.

[@Joepacker]

Glad I got our HVAC system replaced back in 2017 before all this happened

[@6barry66]

Seer 2 is not the enemy of consumers. I live in New Jersey.We have hot summers that are humid. Anything that is not seer 2 Compliant will struggle on hot days to cool and dehumidiry. Any price increase that consumers incur is due to the greed of the contractor, not the cost of the equipment. Seer 2 decreases service calls and lowers utility bills. That may be bad news for contractors , but it's good news for consumers. The enemy to consumers is contractors, not Seer 2.

[@boatlover1875]

I have a ten year old Lennox system. Would it make sense for me to buy a tank of the currently used Freon to have around for later potential maintenance? I'd imagine it will get more expensive and if I changed my system down the line and still had the tank, it would be valuable to someone else. If so, how big a tank would make sense? Love your videos.

[@kgfgfg1]

A) leak fixing is better for the planet und B) ask the big bottle of Freon in my basement how it feels to be there just for security of availability :)

[@bad05ford]

Increased efficiency is moot when the unit cost is 2-3x and the reliability is non existent. Then you get 5yr down the road and need 8k in repairs or another 30k for a unit.

[@CdotForbes13]

I feel like keeping the air handler smaller is important since most units (especially in NC where I live) because the attic access is smaller and that's where the units are located.

[@juliussatter2765]

Keep Voting DEMOCRAP it will get worse

[@kennixox262]

Wow! Love how Democrats seem to trigger you. What's your problem? Can't make it in today's economy?@@juliussatter2765

[@catherinemushaw1956]

​@juliussatter2765 awe you don't like making life easier for ALL individuals? Guess you voted for the CONMAN and Reputicans ... Always voting against your Best Interest! 😂😂😂😂

[@CdotForbes13]

@@juliussatter2765your comment makes little sense, I'm making a reference to manufacturers taking the route that Carrier did here. Keep the unit smaller even if they have to incorporate new efficiency standards. Also I am for less government, just an FYI.

[@juliussatter2765]

@@CdotForbes13 EPA and many other three-letter agencies are ran by woke weirdos the sky is falling. That's what I'm talkin about this global warming crisis fake crisis is costing us all our futures in America and making, Commie country stronger . This is a wolk Democrat agenda in Disguise that's what I'm talking about. The Sky is Falling is costing us all so much & doing nothing. But costing more to build . A complicated item doesn't make it cost less or use less resorses. Hope that clears up what I was saying.

[@sylvester2294]

As always the consumer foots the bill ...and it gets worse...the cost of repair!! Circuit boards with variable speed drive for the compressor adds complication...Same for variable speed blowers.

[@balint133]

The biggest issue with all this is longevity... There are plenty of 30-40+ year old units still running with their original compressors in them that were simple like a rock albeit less energy efficient. I'm really curious how many of these complicated coil designs and compressors will still be running 15years from now. The unit might be energy efficient but if it needs to be replaced every 10 years, does manufacturing and installing 4 sets of them is actually better for the environment? It's most likely no good for your wallet, that is for sure :)

[@drozcompany4132]

It's like everything else the government gets involved in. They pander to the climate folks by making something efficient now, with no regard for how to deal with the waste in a few years. That'll be someone else's problem. Sure it'll save a few extra kWh, but they are piling up in landfills by the millions.

[@funnycatvideos5490]

that's the whole gimmick. They are actually designed to not be easily and cheaply fixed. Just look at the automotive market nowadays.

[@VisionStance]

After all is said and done, I do like your straight forward approach to your Videos. Thanks for your Channel, and as you should expect, I have Subscribed. I'm in Atlanta Georgia and we do Commercial, Industrial, and Residential. Our Residential is Trane & Daikin. I know we don't have the Heat Loads you have to contend with! Thank God! Just wait until the New Refrigerants come on line. That will bring about the single greatest one time price increase since the beginning of the Air Conditioner!

[@alanmorrison3598]

All these changes are mandated by un-elected bureaucrats and just like mileage requirements for cars and trucks, result in lower reliability, higher costs and many times higher overall carbon footprints if that's what you believe in even though there is no scientific consensus on this issue. Just try pricing out some of these high end variable speed motors, inverter drives, control electronics etc. Maybe defund the DOE and the EPA and let free markets dictate!

[@Phil_Scott]

I see a lot of smart ideas in the comments... and ways to cut repair costs to zero! You can save all that by placing the window ac's next to the driveway side of the house... that way when it dies you just call the dealer and have him park his truck under the window... and shove it out the window. There are wind drift problems with that on taller buildings over 40 stories though. Its complex. I have no idea what we are going to about all those people breathing out all that poison C02 gas though.. maybe recirculation using a high pressure micro blower and a rectal tube would work. I am 83 now and am completely impressed by all the new advances, especially the new WIFI toilets that snap closed when the power goes out.... all we are missing now is the wire brush bidet.

[@JoeKubinec]

Just a homeowner here... awesome video... I learned a lot. Had no idea of the potential impacts related to unit size and changed efficiency standards. Back to window units when my system eventually craps out!

[@cobbles62]

What about the elephant in the room? The higher seer ratings need variable speed stuff. I'm guessing that most of the current generation of HVAC technicians understands the simple circuitry that includes a couple of relays and capacitor while "2 speed" components, although still 1920's electrics, are already seen as state of the art. But they are most likely completely out of their depth when confronted with variable speed brushless fans and compressors, inverter boards, NTC's and PID logic. Many mainstream hvac specialists just don't sell variable speed stuff, some only do it "under duress" while throwing some scare tactics in the mix. A car analogy: At this moment we are living in a world where cars are stuffed full of electronics, but where mechanics only know how to apply sand paper to the ignition points of a model-T

[@s99614]

The increase in size of equipment is a problem that they should have considered. It's not just HVAC equipment, it's water heaters too

[@sewerrat7612]

Always fun when you have to get your guys to reframe a room because original barley fit. Feel so bad for those customers.

[@4Lights.5Liights]

Possibly, the SEER2 static pressure can tolerate HEPA rated air filtration (in series). With reference to COVID remediation, this is good.

[@NotSexualAtAll]

6:21 An F grade implies you were more than 40% off the total. These new SEER standards see old units go less than 10% off the total. We're saying you can't install units because they have a B+ grade instead of an A+ grade. It's inane.

[@caveman-zd5yv]

I know someone who did not buy new havac unit he hook up a thermostat to a bunch of ac's, he heats his house with in room heaters. I dont know if it was cheaper but he told me he knows other people who did it.

[@ryanisaacson118]

I dont mind bigger condensor espically by the salt water the coil will last longer

[@jasonligo895]

I wonder if these new (residential) systems are also redesigned to use A2L refrigerants as well. Are they all required to use them in beginning of 2025?

[@anthonylosego]

It depends. R-454B is A2L and meets the GWR of 500 or less at 466. However R-466A is A1 but is only a GWR of 733, so that's more an R-410A replacement. Not sure how much traction it will get as I think the 500 limit will be in just 2025.

[@curiosity2314]

What amazes me the most is that manufactures won't make changes unless someone kicks them in the hind side to do so. Imagine if the government didn't get involved with auto makers back in the 1970's, you would need fog lights during a bright sunny day today. Sometimes big bother has to look down and say improve your s%$# manufacturer. The good big bothers out there are more involved with planet management not just your home or office. If these companies stayed ahead of the government you would not be talking about big bother but they don't.

[@new2000car]

Thanks for this comparison. Yes smog was choking us in the 1970s. It still is choking India and china. So 1 1970 car produced more emissions, including unburned hydrocarbons and CO, than 40 1990 cars. Strangely, most people are unaware of this. For example, if someone left a 1970 car idling overnight in an attached garage, the occupants in the house would probably die. Today they would survive easily (as long as the car was running right and was c. 1990 or later). It was a painful transformation for the auto industry and consumers. For central AC I think they’re chasing diminishing returns. In the 70s a seer of 5 was common. The move to 10 was great, then 14, but to go to 16 minimum or 20 minimum probably costs more in raw materials, combined with today’s fall apart systems, than is saved in oil/fuels burned.

[@engadvantage]

You would be surprised to know who is behind these changes, it's not exactly the government directly. The HVAC industry sets on the committees that make recommendations to DOE, people in/out of private industry and government, these people are making these changes. As much as they might complaint about new regs, big HVAC manufacturers love regulations that keep new equipment in high demand.

[@garrettmillard525]

New equipment is in demand either way, big HVAC loves regulation because it kills the smaller manufacturers that can't afford to completely change their supply chains/designs@@engadvantage

[@jasonligo895]

I would say it was the Japanese automakers and U.S. policy to allow imports that forced the U.S. manufacturers to shape up or go bankrupt.

[@kthwkr]

The cost of most any commodity is approximately a measure of the energy it takes to produce it. When regulations increase cost then more energy has to be expended to meet those regulations. If those regulations are to reduce energy consumption then the math needs to be done to assure the increased energy of manufacturing does not exceed the predicted energy savings. Plus the lifespan of the product and repair and replacement has to be in the calculations as well. If an HVAC system has to be completely replaced in a mere 7 years then energy has to be expended to manufacture the replacement as well as install it and recycle the old unit. But if the unit lasts 21 years then that's an energy savings for the replacement of two complete systems. It seems that all appliances are lasting much less time. I submit that the shortened lifespans wastes more energy that any of the so called energy efficient advances. Another example is the variable speed motors. So far I haven't had one last 2 years with one failing in just 6 months. One ECM motor was replaced under a 5 year warranty 4 times. There is no way there was any energy savings in that scenario.

[@Rico-oy3dc]

You never mention that saving energy is the purpose and is a world mandate. Looking to Asia and Africa, the rest of the world uses inverter technology, VRF, VAF, and building more compartmental structure. Reduce the use of ducting as it wastes up to 30% of energy. Need to change mindsets and paradigm mentality.

[@garrettmillard525]

This guy can only think about how much money he can make and how easy his install is. Higher equipment cost leaves less margin for him to charge on install.

[@The1JBanks]

Mini split have no duct gain/ loss because no ductwork. But ultimately worse air distribution. Mini splits are great for small areas not so much for big ones unless you have a multi head unit or something like that.

[@dpeagles]

Putting HVAC in unconditioned areas needs to end. IMO.

[@PeterLawton]

Agreed. It should have never started.

[@capedude465]

My continuously sweating air handler agrees with you

[@cook1emnstr176]

But...how are you creating conditioned spaces to put the equipment in? You need larger temperature deltas for better efficiencies...also, not all buildings would have enough room indoors for the equipment... genuinely curious what this looks like.

[@PeterLawton]

@@cook1emnstr176 No, you don't need larger temp deltas for better efficiencies. A dragster has a very high acceleration to reach very high speed, faster than the vast majority of cars; but it is far from efficient. Large temp deltas make for faster heat flow from hot to cold, but large temp deltas also require more energy input, hampering efficiency. An HVAC unit in a hot, unconditioned space needs to remove heat not only from the incoming (living space) air, but also remove heat that entered the unit from the hot unconditioned space.

[@vroor32]

​@@PeterLawtonYou mentioned something that caught my attention: delta-T. I have a refrigerated trailer. When I need to pull temp from ambient to -20⁰F ... I noticed a huge (greater than 10⁰) delta-T between supply air and return air. I have the option of changing air flow from "normal" to "high" Question is: Does "high" air flow matter in getting to the setpoint faster? Or does the high air flow negativity impact heat "extraction" from the moving air mass? Fyi: I'm not concerned about efficiency when trying to get to setpoint. Once at setpoint, low idle kicks in, and I get efficiency gains from that point

[@mihairosu9355]

According to the chart, the industry had 8 years to prepare for this change, from 2015 to 2023. Was that not long enough to prepare?

[@hartsickdisciple]

Even if it was long enough to source materials and redesign equipment, that doesn't address the cost increases. Companies have to stay in business and remain profitable. If products become too expensive to their customers to buy, the whole thing doesn't work. Politicians and regulators who make these changes to rules and standards don't live in the real world. They live in a fantasy land. I've worked in the commercial and military HVAC controls industry for 12 years, and I see it every day. Anything you gain with a higher SEER rating past a certain point is lost to higher purchase and repair costs. The consumer ends up footing the bill for regulator's fantasies.

[@mihairosu9355]

In your experience, above what SEER rating does it not make sense to go past with current technology? @@hartsickdisciple

[@sergiojasierzurbanoperez4555]

More eficiency more problems with humidity, especially since contractors are allways oversizing. Yes the space will coold down really quick but then you have moisture problems

[@audvidgeek]

I wish the EER rating was also published as much as the SEER rating. They whole "dirty" part about SEER rating is that it's easy to pump the number up higher when the climate is moderate. What I want to know is really, purely, how many BTU's per watt the system can move. Yes, it may be able to save me some energy when the temperature is moderate outside, but the unit is going to be more efficient anyways. A single-stage unit will run less when the temperature is moderate, than a throttled-back multi-stage or variable speed unit will, *BUT* it's SEER performance is ONLY being measured when it's actually RUNNING! So, you can have a fancy 24 SEER variable speed unit running all day when the temperature is 80 degrees and your thermostat is set to 76 that actually ends up consuming MORE power than a basic single-stage 14SEER unit that cuts on for only a few minutes each hour.

[@funnycatvideos5490]

Yep it's all about seeming to be more efficient with more expensive parts and components that will be put on the consumer. The majority of inefficiencies come from the insulation and the envelope of the home. Not to mention if your product doesn't have a long lifespan how is that any better than the original equipment it's replacing.

[@phillipsusi1791]

Wrong. The variable speed unit will be on twice as long, but will be using 1/3rd the power while doing so. That short cycling single stage unit will be wasting more power on each startup, not dehumidifying enough, and leaving pockets of hotter air in some areas of the house and colder in others, which often leaves people feeling uncomfortable, so they turn down the thermostat.

[@chazman4461]

How about changing the US building code to build better houses and buildings. We do this and develop equipment that has less reliability like the end user has money to throw away replacing parts every so many years. We are seeing it now with kitchen appliances not making it 5 years.

[@russell7489]

With skyrocketing elec rates seems energy savings are a good thing. Thanks to my deregulated utility, deregulated allegedly cause I have choice, except for delivery which is 2/3+ the cost of elec, well they bribed their way to biggest rate inc in state history, coupled w utterly ending all maint & system upgrades - which really means people better have a way to go solar w battery storage or elec bills will be second only to mortgages in home costs. So most efficient HVAC is a must. Be nice if govt dist cost savings at different emec rates to help make owners feel better about costs. Be nice to know from govt what the payback time on addt costs vs svgs. If it's over 10 yrs owners getting stuck w green costs - and as that benefits everyone should be incentivized by govt w rebates. If you have any idea about costs maybe post an update.

[@robertsmith2956]

Was hoping to find out which is better. A seer 17 of a Seer2 15.

[@JesseDoesHVAC]

Just wait. Here in Australia 🇦🇺 we have MEPS (minimum energy performance standards) of which dictates that you basically cant sell a non inverter system in residential.. that and r32 taking over

[@SoullessProductions]

The higher the seer rating means the higher the price point of the unit and the less likely it is to last longer than the warranty

[@bikerbobcat]

Residential & Light commercial guy out of DC. Thanks for this video, this is a lot of good information to pass on to customers when they ask why. I knew about the coil size changes and ECM motors, etc. but not specifically the SEER2 ductwork addition. This is really helpful. Still "It is what it is." Be safe out there y'all.

[@erickanorris567]

around here many people have to have new units brought in with a crane . $$$$$$, I've seen houses with 8 inches between the ac and the masonry fence

[@____MC____]

My only complaint is the size. Most access holes are barely big enough. Always have to remove sheet rock and its risky spreading the trusses.

[@sand0can1]

The problem is the installers not the SEER2 or manufacturers. There are plenty of system with inverters way over 20 seer. The problem is that such system cost let say 2K more (MSRP) yet you guys are charging the customer additional (on top) 2-4K to install it!! Why are you so greedy?? All this resulting in owners putting less efficient system because of your greed!!! Please don’t give me the BS about the warranty.

[@scoobtoober2975]

Holy smokes. Thanks for the info. I had no idea. Now i know why i can't get a 17.5" 100kbtu unit. or is mine just 80k all along? Goodman 92% 15 years old. doing a full dual fuel swap

[@progressreason_1]

Great video explaining HVAC progress forward

[@ashbucharon8263]

Consumers need to learn about what they are buying instead of thinking they can rely on the government to do their job. This SEER2 debacle sounds just like the mandating of putting Ethanol in gasoline, every single engine manufacture (for cars, outboard motors, lawn equipment, weedeaters, pressure washers.....) went through hell to make their engines work, and we are still paying for it, having to replace everything much sooner, sometimes once a year OR pay more for non-ethanol if we can find it. All this ac energy efficiency "help" from the government is good for nothing when your ductwork in the attic is just a heat exchanger for the attic, your ac is basically losing all its "SEER" as it passes through the 140 degree attic (I'm in Florida) .

[@toddward3855]

Just an FYI I contacted your company for an 4 Ton HVAC replacement in DFW two weeks ago and never got a response. Might want to make sure someone is checking your website inbox. Y'all's pricing is highly competitive, so you may be missing out on a lot of revenue from that avenue.

[@TooTall_John]

What congressman or woman had stock in the companies that market this new equipment?

[@jimgrant4348]

This is part of Biden's green energy initiative and Janet Granholm's Department of Energy. They pushed new regulations on heating, forcing people to purchase 92% or greater efficiency beginning in 2025. Granholm testified before Congress it would save consumers money. One congressman asked about the average home needing over $3000 in external ductwork for flue gasses, average heater costing $2500 to $3000 more, and for 12% more efficiency, how long it would take to recoup the costs. Her answer was DOE was expecting the cost of natural gas prices to increase 50% every 2 to 3 years. Let's Go Brandon

[@drsg9124]

These changes are long over due in my opinion when you see how far behind the US is in terms of hvac efficiency and quality. The big manufacturers have been getting away with single stage low efficient units for years. I love my variable speed trane unit , cools way nicer than my single stage one from the 90s.

[@dknowles60]

you will love it until it needs Repairs and has a lot shorter Life then a single stage

[@SunSandSurf]

Bro.. the chart you show at 1:13 was printed July 2019! 4.5 years ago. Learn to prepare better.