ATR systems - Fire protection

[@faganfit572]

Just completed my type rating on the ATR 500, and your videos really helped! Keep up the great work!

[@FlywithMagnar]

Happy landings!

[@Repented008]

I don't get why the q400 has superior performance numbers than the 72-600 when they share the same power plant. What am I missing here?

[@FlywithMagnar]

@@Repented008 , despite being in the PW100 series, the engines are very different. The ATR is powered by the PW127, rated at 2750 shp. The Q400 is powered by the PW150, rated at 5000 shp.

[@Repented008]

@@FlywithMagnar Oh I see. Because Dash 8 has higher mtow as well. Nice, nice.

[@twentyrothmans7308]

You are a fantastic teacher, even for those who can't fly. I had heavy electrical smoke on my small yacht once from a short in the battery bus to the fusebox, and lost a lot of time trying to decide what to do, plus the surprise delay. This is nothing compared to an aircraft, but you're still responsible for your passengers (my girlfriend). After that, and rewiring the bus differently, I committed to memory the actions to take if something happened again.

[@cupofjoen]

Petter and Denys said this before, Joe and Kelsey said this before. Now Magnar an ATR pilot also said the same thing about fire. This is why I love aviation. Fire is the last thing every pilot wants in an aircraft failure.

[@akshatjindal233]

I saw you at AATC, Bangkok earlier this month and really wanted to get a picture with you but then couldn’t see you again after that. I regret not meeting you the day I saw you 😢

[@Colaholiker]

Very interesting video! For me, as a former firefighter, who is old enough to remember when they banned Halon extinguishers (they were still in our training material but we didn't have them any more), I am surprised to see that aviation seems to be one of the few places where they can still be used. Not sure about the details, but here in Germany, and most likely at least the entire EU, they are banned for general use. I know they are among the most efficient, but Halon isn't exactly environmentally friendly, destroying the ozone layer. I guess when it comes to aviation, the benefits of efficiency, combined with the thankfully rare need to ever use them, was enough to grant an exception. What you say about the ionizing smoke detector being like what you would find at home, I think that largely depends on where in the world one lives. I know they exist, but I have never seen an ionizing smoke detector being sold for private use here in Germany. All you see are the optical ones that work like the first type you described, just without a fan. I know that ionizing detectors are far more common in places like the United States and wouldn't be surprised if there are more places where they are the more common kind. 😉

[@FlywithMagnar]

Yes, use of halon in aviation is very rare, so the impact on the ozone layer is small. I know they are working with alternate solutions, but they must prove to be equally efficient. Aviation is one of those forms of transportation where you cannot stop at the curb and assess the situation. EDIT: In new ATR aircraft, the Halon in the extinguishers are now replaced with Halotron.

[@atrquestionbank8648]

You say flight crew can't tell if aft smoke is aft cargo or lav but on the 600 it says on the system page.

[@FlywithMagnar]

You are absolutely right. Thank you for notifying me!

[@atrquestionbank8648]

@@FlywithMagnar no worries captain. Keep up the good work.

[@daranhiarango163]

Good videos I used for my trainings around the world thanks captain

[@FlywithMagnar]

Glad you like them!

[@barbarasouza7117]

Hello Captain. I would like to say thank you so much. I have been study for my type rating on the ATR 72-600, and your videos really helped me a lot! Keep going with this great work! Happy landings!!!! :)

[@AviAeroAsis]

Thank you. A system video after long.

[@malcolmcampbell9887]

Great video thanks Magnar.

[@yams900]

Tack, tack !

[@khaledibrahim-ix6pf]

Thank you

[@henrirakotozafy6754]

thanks fot this video Capt!

[@rawhanrather1923]

Hi Captain, where can I find the FCOM? Could you please share it with me? Thanks!

[@terryterry1655]

how much does a PW127M cost ? for atr72-600 . need 4 x

[@joteord]

Hi Captain, I noticed 2 small errors, in the 600 version when you perform the smoke detector test it appears not 3 but 4 awarning lerts (forward, after, electrical and lavatory) in the SD cabin page, and the test has to be done before any flight not before the first flight of the day. Thank you for your excellent work!!

[@FlywithMagnar]

Thank you for your feedback. The lavatory alert on the SD cabin page is mentioned in the description section above. According to FCOM, the smoke test in only performed before the first flight of the day. Maybe the SOP in your company is diffrent?

[@joteord]

@@FlywithMagnar You are right, it was my mistake, I was thinking in the engine fire detector test. Regards

[@eduardoferreira8288]

Very Good!!!!

[@viveksingh388]

hello captain, what to do if we get nacelle overheat during taxi? i got this question in indigo written exam. thanks

[@FlywithMagnar]

The procedure is as follows: 1. Stop the aircraft. 2. Increase power slightly. 3. If the alert remains after 30 sec, shut down the enigne. That said, ATR does not recommend taxi with engine #2 in hotel mode. We start both engines before taxi and shut down one of the engines (normally #1) two minutes after landing.

[@bertdaan]

Looking at the "anti smoke valve" or extract airflow valve, can you explain why we don't have to close it with ELEC SMK but only with FWD Cargo comp SMK? And is it possible that FWD Cargo comp SMK also triggers an ELEC SMK? They both use the same ducting through the Extract Fan where the ELEC SMK sensor is located.

[@bbgun061]

Because in the case of ELEC SMOKE, the smoke could be coming from somewhere in the instrument panel, such as the DUs; or from the avionics racks. In either situation, the extractor fan will pull the smoke away from the cockpit. But if it’s coming from the DUs and you close the valve, that ventilation airflow will stop and the smoke will remain in the cockpit. In the case of FWD SMOKE, the extractor fan will pull the smoke from the cargo compartment into the cockpit. Closing the valve prevents this. Yes, it is likely that ELEC SMOKE will be triggered after FWD SMOKE. If that happens, you don’t apply the ELEC SMOKE procedure because FWD SMOKE happened first. The fire is in the cargo compartment.

[@bertdaan]

Hi Benjamin, yep . . makes sense on the first part but to my opinion the extract fan with FWD Comp smoke will not push smoke into the cockpit but pulls it away toward the partly opened overboard exhaust valve.

[@TheMaximus610]

Hi Magnar! I have three questions: 1. Why ATR removed memory item for "loop fault"? Let's assume you have loop fault after takeoff and first you do normal and then abnormal checklist. If you got real engine fire, wouldn't you lose some critical time? 2. For 500 series I use: for electrical smoke detection - first CCAS message and then smoke and for air conditioning smoke detection - first smoke and then CCAS. Does it work in real life? 3. Could you, please, give a practical example with a tripped c/b and/or item isolation during an electrical smoke/fire? Thank you for the great and useful videos!

[@FlywithMagnar]

1). ATR made a decision to remove as many memory actions as possible without compromising the safety. It is highly ulikely that an engine fire will happen seconds after a loop fault. (That only happens in the simulator.) 2) If I understand you correctly, then no. When you have ELEC SMK, you do the Smoke memory actions, the Smoke checklist, and then the Electrical Smoke checklist. When you have air condition smoke, there's no CCAS alert. Air condition smoke is detected visually and/or by smell. You do the Smoke memory actions, the Smoke checklist, and then the Air Condition Smoke checklist. If ELEC SMK appears, you must disregard it. 3) I have heard about one accident where the crew repeatedly pushed in a popped circuit breaker until the circuit caught fire (not ATR). Apart from that, I have never heard about such situations. But I can construct a scenario: An unusual strong current is sent from ACW BUS 1 to the pitot heat on the captain's side. Arching starts a fire before the circuit breaker can open. The smoke triggers ELEC SMK. Most likely, the circult breaker has opened. When touching the circuit braker panel for probes heating, the pilot will feel it's warmer than usual. You can now restore the systems on the MAIN ELEC PWR panel. Whether you should restore ACW GEN 2 is open for debate. The pilots don't know what caused the overload to the given pitot heat. ACW BUS 2 might have a similar issue, but they don't know.

[@CARLOSFERNANDEZ-vf2fm]

About the off-duty pilot that recently tried to turn off the engines in flight - is it possible to push the fire handles back into the original position, cancelling the effects of them being pulled (the mechanical block mentioned in the FCOM) to restart the engines? Thanks.

[@FlywithMagnar]

Yes.

[@CARLOSFERNANDEZ-vf2fm]

@@FlywithMagnar thanks!!

[@khaledibrahim-ix6pf]

Thanks for your great video I saw some yoke in your disk You do flightsim? Is there any good program for atr 72 600?

[@FlywithMagnar]

I have had MSFS for a while. I use it to be familiarized with new airports. Accrding to this article, Asobo will launch the ATR 42/72-600 this month. msfsaddons.com/2022/11/22/asobo-hans-hartmanns-atr-42-72-lauching-in-march-2023/

[@User-ti8qg]

Hi Captain, 1) In this video you mentioned that 'when AFT smoke has triggered the extract fan stops, this prevents smoke from entering the cabin,' but even with extract fan turned off wont the smoke enter the cabin with recirc fan running? Then why only extract fan is shed? 2) Whether the extract fan will be shed if any kind of smoke is detected, ie ELEC, FWD or AFT? 3) What is the reason behind triggering Mec Horn while resetting the OVBD PB following SMK test?

[@FlywithMagnar]

Thank your for the questions. 1) I do not know the technical reason, but when smoke is detected, one of the memory actions is to switch off the recirculation fans. Therefore, the fans will come off pretty quick. 2) Only AFT SMK. 3) The OVBD pushbutton controls the extract fan, which is important for cooling of the avionics. The cockpit can get very hot during a ground stop. The horn will sound when the extarct fan stops, alerting everyone around the aircraft that something is wrong. The horn will also sound when the OVBD pushbutton is selected OFF bedause the fan will stop. The alert is inhibited when AFT SMK is triggered. But when we select the OVBD pushbutton OFF during the reset, the horn will sound because of the logic in the system.

[@User-ti8qg]

​@@FlywithMagnar Thank you for explaining, can you please add why the AFT smoke? I mean extract fan extract air from the avionics, E & E racks and the FWD Cargo area, then why shed it when there is smoke in the aft cabin?

[@FlywithMagnar]

When in flight, the extract fan directs air via the underfloor valve to the area under the cabin floor. When the air reaches the aft part of the fuselage, it flows up to the cabin and then forwards. Any smoke in the aft part of the cabin will then drift forwards through the cabin. This will not happen when the extraft fan has stopped.

[@crus8ers]

hi could you please explain to me how ATR is certified for ETOPs operation without the capability to suppress fires for 2 hours or more? I believe this is a requirement for ETOP certification. please do correct me if I'm wrong though.

[@FlywithMagnar]

This requirement is for cargo fire suppression systems. Not the engines. An engine fire is typically caused by a fuel leak, and the fuel supply is shut off when the fire handle is pulled. Therefore, an engine fire will extinguish itself. A cargo fire is very different.

[@crus8ers]

@@FlywithMagnar thank you so much for responding. You’re very knowledgeable! Apologies I should have specified, yes I was talking about cargo fires. I know that the rear cargo compartment has a vents from which fire extinguisher content can exit to extinguish the fire however this doesn’t fulfill the requirement to suppress fire for two hours or more to be certified for ETOPs operation. I’m wondering how did ATR manage to get away with being certified for ETOPs without having fire suppressants?

[@FlywithMagnar]

The requirement is not for passenger aircraft, but cargo aircraft.

[@bertdaan]

Your vids are very clear explained systems knowledge, thank you for that Magnar. Why does engine #1 not have a Nacelle overheat sensor, as with taxi it can experience the same as engine #2? (the QRH procedure is related to an operating #2 engine) Is the single dot on the CAP opposite of the NAC 2 OVHT just to ignore the possibility of the #1 NAC OVHT?

[@FlywithMagnar]

The nacelle overheat sensor is installed in the engine with the propeller brake. When using the engine in hotel mode in tailwind, there's a reduced airflow through the nacelle. This is not an issue when the propeller is turning.

[@bertdaan]

@@FlywithMagnar Do you taxi with hotel mode?

[@FlywithMagnar]

No, no reason to do that.

[@bertdaan]

@@FlywithMagnar I had the same opinion sir so that leaves us with a useless "taxi NAC OVHT" QRH procedure and clarifies the reason why there is no OVHT sensor in NAC #1. Any idea on the CAP dot?

[@FlywithMagnar]

The dot is an empty slot. The shape of the CAP is standard and used in every ATR variant from the 42-300 to the 72-500. Therefore, there will be different alert lights.

[@orestism4118]

Hello Captain! Can you please clarify which is the best angle of climb speed (Vx) and which is the best rate of climb speed (Vy) in ATR?? Also is the best lift to drag ratio speed the best rate of climb speed for turbo props like ATR??

[@FlywithMagnar]

Hi Oerstis. The terms Vx and Vy are not used in transport category aircraft. Therefore, you will never see those speeds in ATR manuals. The closest speed is called VmLB - mimimum speed low bank. It is shown on the airspeed indicator with a white bug and is used for best single engine climb speed, and for drift down. This speed is close to the speed for best lift to drag ratio and the speed for best rate of climb. So, yes those speeds are identical (more of less).

[@User-ti8qg]

Hi Captain, Thank you for such an informative video. Can u please clarify 1) what is the reason for shedding ACW generators in the event of ELECT smoke? 2) Will the ELECT smoke will be triggered following an FWD smoke alert even before selecting avionics vent exhaust mode to OVBD since the smoke from FWD cargo compt will flow past the smoke sensor in the avionics vent with the UF valve In open position? In that case, how can we confirm whether the ELECT smoke alert is a false alert? Should the ELECT smoke checklist be initiated in that case?

[@FlywithMagnar]

Two reasons. They carry a high load. And, they are not required for flight (yes, they power some ice protection systems, but a fire is more serious). If the smoke disappears after selecting the ACW generators OFF, then you have found the problem.

[@User-ti8qg]

@@FlywithMagnar 1 ) Will the ELECT smoke will be triggered following an FWD smoke alert even before selecting avionics vent exhaust mode to OVBD since the smoke from FWD cargo compt will flow past the smoke sensor in the avionics vent with the UF valve In open position? In that case, how can we confirm whether the ELECT smoke alert is a false alert? Should the ELECT smoke checklist be initiated in that case?

[@FlywithMagnar]

Not if you follow the checklist for FWD SMK, which tells you to close the extract air flow lever. This prevents smoke from entering the cockpit. If you have FWD SMK alert before ELEC SMK alert, you follow the procedure for FDW SMK. Anyway, the cabin crew will check the cargo compartment and report to you.

[@hugo59591]

@@FlywithMagnar Hello Captain, I have a question regarding switching off the ACW GEN 1+2. With the current OEB application, we turn on the TRU before taxi and shut it down after landing. I understand that the TRU uses ACW 2. In the case of ELEC SMOKE, when we turn off ACW GEN 1+2, will the aircraft revert back to DC power automatically? Thank you.

[@slamzy02]

I had a smartphone catch fire in the cabin once... Scariest day of my life omg...

[@alssns]

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