Challenging to Diagnose Misfire on a 2012 Dodge Charger 8-Cylinder

[@Properly-Gapped]

Now this is what I call being an elite diagnostician. Using noninvasive methods is where it’s at. He’s correct in saying always trust the data.

[@luckyone7656]

Bernie. While most technician will try to follow this video I would have to say probably 90 percent have already left the room. 1) they don't have the equipment 2)they don't have the technical skill to follow what you are saying. With your advanced skill in diagnostic, it still take over 1 to 2 hours to diagnose the problems. It's not just having an elite tool, but how to use it and interpret data. Most shop will just refer the car to dealers move on to something else. But you are one of the best

[@gregjones8501]

Man this case study was one of the best yet!!! I can’t wait to get half as good as Bernie is with his diagnostic strategies! I need good troubleshooting in my bays ASAP ‼️😂

[@Rtbreezy345]

What’s up greg

[@CubasAutomotive]

Right?? Mind blowing! 🤯🤯🤯🤯

[@Sipho-Msayi]

This was a tricky one, but Bernie simplified it with his exceptional knowledge and use of tools. What I have observed is that his scope has features that cheap scopes don't have. Thank you for sharing these lessons

[@gmtech2012]

The ability of this equipment is amazing. The only problem is, after you spend around $12,000 for everything, you still need extensive training on how to use it all. You can't learn this stuff overnight. I'm sure Bernie's knowledge and experience goes back over 25 years.

[@scientist100]

He says he started when oscilloscopes were enclosed in a giant room and he got to use them thanks to a known friend or someone close. I believe he said that it was an enterprise entity that was the ones that could get their hands on those type of machines as a business need. So, he was born with this stuff and he created his own tools. He has vast experience and most of us new diag techs will never find this problem because it is probably unique and may not happen if the right parts are ordered to begin with.

[@gmtech2012]

@@scientist100 yeah you are absolutely right. Of all the vehicles on the road with engine problems, what are the chances of this being the cause? This car obviously had a different problem before the wrong lifters were installed and we'll never know what was originally wrong.

[@scientist100]

It is more than 25 years bud. I've seen videos where he says that he has never seen something like that before. An old timer himself doesn't know it all but he does have a lot of tricks when it comes to diagnosis but if you notice, he uses the same strategy to get data and the way he diagnoses is based on experience.

[@mike-yp1uk]

I still see new stuff everyday and the technology requires a scope. Do you want a Cadillac or a base model Buick. Lol you have to love diagnostic stuff to invest this kind of money.

[@gmtech2012]

@@mike-yp1uk You could get all the same testing equipment for a picoscope and spend $5000, half of what ATS stuff costs. I have the ATS stuff and I believe it's worth the extra money.

[@baxrok2.]

The "unfixable" car gets fixed with ATS on the case! Excellent case study. Thanks!

[@BigDogDiagnostics]

This is probably one of my favorite videos of yours I’ve seen. They are all gold, but the troubleshooting you performed on this vehicle shows the correct diagnostic process to the T. They fact it had new heads and all those parts thrown at wound be an extremely difficult diagnosis for anyone. You called it Bernie. And stuck with your gut. Love it and thanks for sharing this!

[@Discretesignals]

Top notch diagnosis. Doesn't get any better than that.

[@vickenkaragozian2041]

Amazing diagnostic strategy.I have the escope & everyday i love it more & i learn a lot of stuff from Bernie.Great scope, its more than a scope.

[@trublue2319]

Do you got 8 channel or 4

[@hanskoef]

That is by far the best case study and diagnostician I've seen. NICE

[@charlespaluha1247]

Wow. One of the first things I ever learned as a mechanic was. Make sure that the parts you are installing are the same parts you removed check and double check. Your video just showed and proved. Possibly. That somewhere along the line there was a misfire. In the misfire was corrected but also still existed. Because somebody installed the wrong part without checking to make sure. But once again I appreciate your video. Wonderful video

[@James-fs4rn]

👍My head is still spinning with all that data. Nice work as always Bernie!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Bernie your scope is just NUTS! Kudos for designing and building such an amazing piece of technology! That engine sounds like ticking on Keith Defazio's Caravan...bad cam?

[@Serpent32776]

Wait… he designed this?😳

[@thesmartguy3523]

@@Serpent32776 yeppp

[@turningwrenchesautorepairm5017]

There where moments that I thought I was listening to Bob Ross.... What Bob was to painting, Bernie is to car diags

[@truth4reel]

For reallll!

[@mikechiodetti4482]

That's the longest I've seen Bernie take to find the problem, but he found it! Plus with his theory of operational knowledge and a great diagnostic tool, it was just a matter of time before he found it!

[@mike-yp1uk]

I knew Bernie would get me hooked on this scope based on how he uses it. I like watching him solve the mystery with his 8 channel crystal ball. I'm ready to pull the trigger. The other scopes pale in comparison. Lol

[@tonyfremont]

Man, that scope setup is incredible. Pretty obvious that Bernie completely drove the design of it. Pico has nothing on this scope, not even close.

[@BBS_Robski]

totally agree streets ahead of picoshite !

[@vickenkaragozian2041]

I agree. I have the Escope elite 4 and all the pressure transducers & i love them.I bought the pico scope the 4425A and i used it 3 times and i couldn't stand it. I sold it.

[@scientist100]

​@@vickenkaragozian2041lol, I have mine stored away and I'm vmsurprised they haven't included more presets to expedite diagnostics. They should include presets like USB oscilloscope and such to help techs diagnose issues quickly.

[@johnnysprocketz]

​@@BBS_Robskilol Bernie can't hang with pico

[@jacktingzon2378]

it will never get any harder than that. you are a grand master on this field sir. knowledge, proper tooling, and trusting the tools and the data is the key. thank you sir!

[@Thunderroad8517]

Thanks Bernie. Another one bites the dust! Thanks for teaching us!!!!

[@themechanic6117]

Amazing work! I can't imagine how much money was dumped into trying to fix this thing.

[@sergesimonov1767]

Good analytical work. I start diagnostics by checking the mechanics. I check the vacuum with a piezoelectric sensor. I analyze the opening and closing of valves in degrees. The order of analysis by vacuum is 4-2-1-3 of the engine with the order of operation 1-3-4-2.

[@mattw1393]

The level of knowledge is unbelievable. Thanks for sharing.

[@mikejmardis]

Bernie, I always learn a ton from you. As frustrating as it may be for you; you sometimes to forget to dummie down where you are in your diag. IE- where you are connected, what we are looking at, what’s a known good, why you choose to move in a certain direction..... . Thank you for your contributions to the field.

[@josephneal4858]

This one of the most interesting case study's......... ATS came in all for the wrong set of lifters, so now we have learned a ton of valuable information. all but Amazing!!!!! Great skills and great tools!!!! Nice video I look forward to watching them all!!!!

[@w0070152]

Bernie! Love your videos! Great process. This is my next scope with zoom in capabilities I am looking at purchasing. Thank you for producing a great product. Rob from Australia.

[@brianb5779]

This guy is like the goat of diagnostics...

[@geraldhenke]

This is truly badass, had me on the edge of my seat

[@FinalStopMobileAutoTech]

Absolutely wonderful stuff Bernie, God bless and thank you again.

[@kandkob]

Thank you from New Zealand. Great information and love your equipment

[@JoelAutomotiveInaction]

what a great case study ,thanks for sharing this is really great diagnostic

[@rickcoleman8903]

It takes a lot of time to get this good at troubleshooting bravo.

[@randalnichols7377]

Always trust the data! Thank you Mr. Thompson!

[@denverboii89]

Me looking to just replace the spark plugs for a misfire lol this video just floored very very well executed

[@ismarmeskovic]

Thank you for your time and awesome lesson Mr.Thompson!

[@kevintoms5479]

Amazing case study Bernie, the way you work is class leading thank you for sharing with us

[@eliteautomotivediagnostics4424]

Nice work Bernie! Top diagnosis on a tricky vehicle.

[@JBTaylor86]

Wow you’re on another level.......that fault must of been built in by one of the previous repairs.

[@cyberslacker5150]

One good piece of advise: Don't assume that it's just something wrong with the valves. Who would have thought someone someone replaced the valve lifters with the wrong product! Moral of the story: If someone else has been working on the car, they either made the problem worse or they created new problems. Also, the customer will be mad, not happy, at the last person who really fixed it! The ones before that made the big money fixing nothing! It happens to me all the time!

[@IAMNOSLEEP]

Thanks for sharing Bernie... Cheers.

[@mike-yp1uk]

This scope has a lot of capabilities

[@shawnbauman5463]

Built in problems from a "fix." Unbelievable. Awesome work.

[@brianmason8400]

Oddly enough, I've seen it before. Tech unknowingly causes a bigger problem, trying to fix a problem.

[@arthurfricchione8119]

Bernie,terrific troubleshooting. Swish I could afford your scope but anyways your explanations are very helpful. I’ve joined your organization so I can watch your videos and am very pleased. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and info. Artie 🇺🇸

[@nickhibberd1897]

Really great work through. Enjoyed that. Although not essential, I've never seen a tool's function to superimpose multiple cylinder pressures, using multiple pressure sensors ofcourse.

[@Discretesignals]

Wonder if a MDS bidirectional test would have given you a clue also. If you see number one not deactivate during the test with your pressure transducer installed in that cylinder could clue you to lifter issue?

[@J1mbo888]

Just a fantastic video. Top work Bernie :-)

[@CubasAutomotive]

Wow. Absolutely amazing! Excellent diag & process! I can only hope to eventually get to this level. Working on it. Thank you Mr Thompson!

[@frankjohn4302]

Was worried shop wasnt gonna get the go ahead to open engine up.Glad to actually see the problem

[@googacct]

Great stuff. Another area where I think these techniques would help is in general aviation and diagnosing problems with piston engine aircraft.

[@paulberumen9258]

Like always, Great video

[@JOHNPHUFNAGEL]

I am blown away!! That is freaking awesome. Could this car been fixed without your tools? I spent lots of money on tools and I am wondering if I bought the wrong equipment.

[@grimey4life5]

So none of the shops could figure out that it still had a mechanical top end issue with how bad it sounds running? The lifter noise is so loud that you can barely hear him talking when he is by the engine!

[@MILKMAATTERS]

Engines running on camera sometimes sound ticky as hell, it's misleading

[@kennethbode2017]

makes you wonder how this all started. you would assume the correct lifters were there at one time or it should have missed from the factory.

[@proanswers]

exacty, So Bernie chased a misfire created by the "other" shop however what was the ORGINAL misfire or issue with the vehicle could be something completely different.

[@unencumbered]

I'd guess it started with a spun roller and then had the wrong set installed by accident.

[@tonyfremont]

Maybe it did miss from the factory, but nobody really cared, or higher oil pressure in the new engine his the problem. I can't see any shop actually doing something so obvious as this was. The problem was literally cast into the erroneous part, in big bold letters. I don't know much about these particular engines, but that rack doesn't exactly look like a high wear item, but maybe it is? Any experts, please chime 8n and set me straight. For 45 minutes, I was pondering how one lobe on a cam was out of time, especially after the cam had been replaced. Worn lifters, loves etc would cause late opening, not early opening. I was expecting a mushroomed lifter or one tightened to the point of no lash. That's about the only things I can imagine that would create early valve opening.

[@unencumbered]

@@tonyfremont Last one I did, about 1yr ago, I had difficulty getting parts...national backorder up here north of the border. From what I understand very common for the roller to seize and take out the cam. Certainly a huge oversight but certainly possible or could they not get the right part? Don't think any store worth its salt would do that - who knows but I'd bet money that's how it went.

[@billykendrick8989]

@@tonyfremont i was thinking he miss spoke may be the non mds lifter does,nt collapse and this creates the problem but i would think the valve would hit the piston , opening to late or not enough will definatly create a miss fire.

[@Hscope-User]

Great diagnostic Bernie, 💪 To understand how things should work and how they reflect on the ocilogram

[@Shirkatron]

What a case study

[@marksprague4454]

Nice painting of a picture. Very nice.

[@richardnilsen5]

Superiority demonstrated By the master 👍 great

[@duckmonster921]

Love your videos

[@kdmq]

Even unfixable cars can be fixed by Bernie!

[@JoesAutoElectric]

Looks like the 8 shops who worked on it before you down voted. Great job Bernie. This is a crazy one!

[@happy543210]

but what was the original problem?

[@jgeorges3061]

Bernie, first happy new year to u and urs what an AWESOME video full of great information with the ATS scope and scanner and the approach you used to solve this problem excellent thanks for all the time u spend to show all that with much respect to you enjoyable as always. cheeeeeers

[@davesage9190]

50:19 What makes you think the customer is going to be happy? They're going to be stuck with the bill for all the stuff you mentioned was replaced. And no one will admit they screwed up and put the wrong parts in it. That's the reality of the situation. At least you were able to get to the bottom of it before the bill got any higher. Good work.

[@billsmith2212]

Were these parts put in at the factory or when the heads were replaced ? Were they mixed in at the parts counter or possibly boxed wrong ? You can't be too careful , especially with internal engine parts . You have to know your limits . As soon as " it can't be fixed " is mentioned , you have to bring in the right people . Even though this has a special cam , etc. , on a crude , basic level , would doing a cranking vacuum test with a vacuum guage at least indicate a problem ? That certainly has it's limits . But if it at least puts you in the right direction , it would be worth a shot . Great diagnosis . Top tier !

[@Shirkatron]

For a car to have this many parts “shotgunned” at it, I have to believe it was all covered under power train warranty.

[@davesage9190]

@@Shirkatron It's a 2012 vehicle. So I doubt it.

[@duanedonaldson2262]

@@billsmith2212 CHRY is known for wrong parts in the wrong box, I am sure it will be easy to prove who put the wrong parts in. If its further back down the line, I would hold them responsible for all work done afterward for sure.

[@Shirkatron]

As A dealership tech I’ve helped customers recoup money spent on parts and diag. For example: customer had a shift shock problem on a 2012 outback 5 speed. Transmission shop installed a new valve body, then installed a torque converter. Customer brought me the car after the transmission shop tried to upsale a remanded transmission. The problem was fixed with a software update. There was no TSB to address this specific concern. Manufacture customer service investigated the problem and agreed that the problem could only be resolved at a dealership via a software patched (or speciality shop with shop tool software). Manufactured covered 75% of the repairs from the transmission shop.

[@darrylblacker4782]

Fantastic work.

[@honestmechanic7974]

Why would the non DOD lifter cause the misfire at idle? At idle the MSD system would not be activating so wouldn't all the lifters be solid? Trying to understand why the lifter is causing the problem. Great diag as usual Bernie. So much knowledge.

[@bakaton0875]

Same question, why would it cause a misfire at idle when MDS is not active. I am dealing with the same issue, a bad lifter wiped a cam lobe so I went with MDS delete and now all of the MDS cylinders have misfires at idle only... I am going to swap the cam to a non MDS cam next but what in theory is causing this especially at idle when MDS is not active so all the MDS lifters should act as non MDS ones??

[@fascistpedant758]

Good question. The lifter may have a little built in lash to relieve pressure on the locking pin. The cam lobe would then need greater duration to take up the lash before opening the valve.

[@billrimmer5596]

I feel like I just gave birth. Good one!!

[@billykendrick8989]

how in hell did it ever get the wrong lifters installed, if it was the original problem then it must have come from the factory like that if not then it must of had a wiped cam in the past and a dummy installed the wrong lifters, what is the answer, it would have helped in the diagnosis.

[@RideBikes_Walkplaces]

When youre doing ybe injector flow rate test, j presume the gas is being injected directly into the cylinder. If there a chance of the vehicle hydraulicing the cylinders when its next turned over? Or does it evaporate? If it evaporates, i presume you can't do this with a diesel?

[@CartersDiagnostics]

So around the 26:00 mark you discover the intake valve is opening early, allowing a push back into the intake, and later you discover a lifter issue, which is the problem. My question is what caused the actual mis fire? I'm thinking some of the fuel charge is pushed back into the intake, due to an early opening intake valve creating a slight lean mis. What I can't figure out is why the primary ignition wave didn't reflect that??

[@fascistpedant758]

That was my thought also. Reduced exhaust scavenging due to the early valve closing could affect the charge too. The charge could be rich enough at the plug to produce a quasi normal firing line but too lean to sustain flame travel through the rest of the charge. It was right on the border between proper firing and a dead or partial misfire.

[@bartscave]

Great diag! I always thought the exhaust and intake pockets were supposed to be even. Was the difference just inherent to the 5.7?

[@stewartboucaud9919]

Your videos are awesome.

[@eduardoyepez7358]

Followed along till about 10 minutes in to the video.. then I felt like an idiot 😂

[@G31mR]

So, was that part installed by a repair shop? Surely it didn't come from the factory that way..... Please explain what "fuel trim" is. Thank you.

[@Mdavied2023]

why the yellow or cylinder 1 had different signal ( no turbulences ) it has nothing to do with valve or cam

[@DeseanWick]

Took me too long to find this type of resource, I must say.

[@hightttech]

Nice Job. I have a chicken / egg question in my head: when did the incorrect part get installed?? This all started over a misfire, so i assume, somewhere along the line, the original problem got solved and this problem was created. Shop that last touched cam should pay Bernie and the latest shop.

[@SamuriaPizzaCat]

Bern 1 is clearly a car whisperer

[@thomasdemarco617]

why take both heads off??????????

[@SeasideDoowop18]

How much does this cost to fix I have cylinder 2 and 6 messed up on mine and it’s an 8?

[@PaulHigginbothamSr]

Why is the trace so unsteady at idle.

[@johnmitchell8925]

Didn't the 5.7 have the cylinder deactivation issues 🤔

[@IamReadyToRock]

excelent, thnks from Peru

[@duanedonaldson2262]

I could see the old heads being kept as a core to be re-maned, were these lifters also kept by the old shop, does the customer know which shop made the mistake and do you know if there are going back to file a complaint? Does this customer have a case in your opinion Bernie?

[@saiautorepairs]

awesome video.

[@senayghebregiorgis3797]

What kind of scanner you recommend me sir as independent mechanic

[@shaunsautorepairs5410]

Awsome diagnostic abilitys....nothing more to say...

[@brianmason8400]

Every once in awhile, i think I'm good. I watch these vids and it's all but tail between the legs humbling.....

[@majorefaw3992]

My 2012 super bee is in the shop from misfire on cylinder 5. Cam and lifter damage.

[@nickbowen9159]

I got misfire on cylinder 3

[@G14Classified]

@@nickbowen9159 same problem how did u fix yours ?

[@johnnysprocketz]

This guy has four pressure transducers going at once.

[@proanswers]

So the last shop that changed the lifter rack (whom guessed) created the misfire? or made it worse? Since this was a mention of a on going 1 year :19 misfire problem.

[@Carlitosway211]

Kick ass job!

[@efanclublolsmaforlife2501]

You give me headaches an make me want to sleep

[@lovetolearn5253]

Good stuff really good stuff. I think alot of people get Intimidated by stuff as advance as this. To me it's like everything else the more you do it the more you learn the more you understand. If you cut corners you cut learning. The more you do right the faster you get.

[@kinglangren]

So how did a wrong lifter get in there?

[@eddquiroz6556]

Where can i buy a scanner just like yours ?

[@jesseruiz2337]

Bernie is fucken awesome!

[@abubakarisadiqueibrahim481]

Which brand of scan tool is this Mr and how much does it cost?

[@thesmartguy3523]

ATS -$12K+

[@abubakarisadiqueibrahim481]

@@thesmartguy3523 Thanks

[@ottonielhernandez3611]

Master

[@DIYDaveOK]

Given the crazy history of the car, incant help but wonder if one problem was fixed, albeit incorrectly, leading to a different but similar problem, which Bernie just identified? I feel like I'm actually learning something in these videos because I actually suspected a valve lifter issue when the cam timings were shown to be ok. There may be hope for a chronic learner like me after a!! Thanks Bernie.

[@edypablo6994]

device price

[@mr.hammer7080]

I learned a lot

[@noahadim]

I would love your job 👍