My speakers disappeared.. I blame my frustrated wife.
@GeneMashine3 жыл бұрын
Check the jewelry box, the new ring might be there, magic hah?
@TechnoDad5 жыл бұрын
Love it! Great video man. I gotta say, I think you would love to sit in as I mix a track. Creating the sound stage is an art all in it's own. Balancing frequencies and imaging is so much fun and there are a lot of tricks we employ to create an awesome sound stage.
@Newrecordday20135 жыл бұрын
Dude for sure! Thanks for watching!
@tedmanasa9075 жыл бұрын
THIS WORKS. I do exactly this, but I do it differently because I have on-wall speakers-I simply move my seating position forwards and backwards. I agree with you that soundstage is “there are no speakers in the room” 100%. When the lights are off, you SHOULD be worried whether your speakers are still there. Your best video so far. Thanks!
@denniswade49985 жыл бұрын
Nearfield listening is very magical, and something that a lot of people never get to experience. It goes against all of the "nice" living room pics we see on the internet of home decorating. It's one of the first things i tried with my setups, and helps to eliminate a lot of "room acoustics". Unfortunately, unless you live alone, like I do, it's also hard to get other family members to accept. It is one reason why I prefer monitors on stands, as I can secretly mark the rug as to where the speaker sounds the best and then pull them out to that spot when I'm ready to listen, and still be able to push them back when I want the room to look normal. I think the improvement is such that I would even be willing to do this with bigger speakers if I had to.
@MikeGervasi4 жыл бұрын
Brother, I saw this video a year ago. I was skeptical but I followed your instructions. It made the BIGGEST improvement of anything I've done. My speakers became invisible at around 4 feet from the front wall, 6 ft apart, and no toe in.. It looks somewhat strange but the sound is now stunning and the system is "tuned" for the room and music sounds like it's truly in the room. I STRONGLY recommend everyone try this.
@loulopez78085 жыл бұрын
I tried it and holy cow, made a noticeable improvement. Including the part about moving the speakers further apart, and of course turning out the lights to zone in on the music. Simply genius. Thank you.
@kworx15 жыл бұрын
I agree with the philosophy of going beyond the sweet spot, and then working your way back to it. I do this when I set the low-end gain and crossover point, as well as any other adjustment for that matter. I learned to do this from mixing live music. However, there is a easier way to find a good starting point for your critical listening position. This is called the 1/3 principal, which is based on the physical shape of a sound wave. Simply speaking, it means the speakers position is 1/3, of total room length, from the front wall. The listing position is 1/3 from the speakers, which puts the listening position 1/3 from the back wall. An example room size; 18' x 12' the speakers would be 6' from the front wall, the listening position is 6' form the speakers and the back wall. Then place the speakers 6' apart @ 50 degree angle or toe, and centered within the room. Most people do not have a perfect shaped room, so this is only a starting point. Once you have a nice image, it can be centered by adjusting the toe, or angle of the speakers.
@FOH36635 жыл бұрын
... aka; H.P.'s "rule of thirds"
@tudorm6838 Жыл бұрын
A similar idea is to close the eyes :)
@skipgordon53825 жыл бұрын
Good approach. A difficult task with 100 lb speakers though. Plus I would need to get some temporary speaker wire. Mine are only 3 meters. My approach was to get them as far into the room as I could and have a usable room. The sound stage is pretty good. The speakers disappear when the recording is good. Some recording are so bad it has nothing to do with speaker placement.
@tupuhumuhumunukunukuapuaa30934 жыл бұрын
Loved this post, I've never started that far in, but I start pretty close and move them back after realizing my fight with the whole "am I hearing a GOOD change" when starting from the front or moving around someone's suggested "ideal" starting point. I end up pretty close like about 5.5-6ft from my listening position with my Maggie MMGs which are then about 5.5 feet from the rear wall. Toe in hasn't been measured but I'd say around 25-30 degrees. Can't locate them and there tracks where stuff is happening on right or left side of the right or left speaker, those are really cool moments (however they manage to mix things like that is beyond me but it's cool to hear).
@keeloraz94524 жыл бұрын
the definition of sound stage what he described, for me, absolutely true.
@floydteter43234 жыл бұрын
I was skeptical when I watched this. But, as I love experimenting, I gave it a try. Moved each of my two speakers 7 feet away from me - total span of 14 feet from speaker to speaker. Listened in the dark, closing my eyes to boot. Magic struck when I moved my speakers 36 inches off the wall (measured from the back of the speaker). I was using Steely Dan's Gaucho (specifically Hey Nineteen) for testing. Was actually startled by some of the background vocals, because they came at me from a different direction! Haven't fiddled with toe-in since making this change. Just enjoying the stunning soundstage I was missing before. I'm sold.
@roytan14794 жыл бұрын
It’s so far into the room and the wife threw the speakers out the window. That’s why the speakers disappear
@Newrecordday20134 жыл бұрын
Haha!
@trekjudas4 жыл бұрын
I DID IT! I took your advice and it worked! Then I kept moving my speakers and I lost it!!
@Moonwynd54 жыл бұрын
Great advice. I just finished doing this and I am almost exactly where I started off...but about 4 inches closer to where I sit and a the speaker are about 6 inches further apart from one another. I think your method gives a great perspective on how much placement in a particular room matters as far as soundstage. You know you’ve achieved your moment of zen when the speakers disappear (in the dark, with your eyes closed, or even just doing some active listening) and you hear the vocals coming as though the singer was center stage in front of you. Now I’m playing with toed-in versus parallel/fully front facing with these KEF LS-50’s!
@Newrecordday20134 жыл бұрын
Thanks Matt!
@HAL90074 жыл бұрын
So, Matt -- following this technique, do we save toe-in variable to the last adjustment? After finding speaker position? What is toe-in during the whole process? Straight ahead, no toe-in and 7 feet apart?
@kendoglarson54193 жыл бұрын
Fantastic methodology. I did a similar thing, but what I did was find my best wall placement first. It was 12-14 inches. Then I found the arrangement for width of the room. Then I did your process. Here's what is the key. I took measurements to form a box around that area encompassing the speakers and my sitting position. Then I moved that box to align with my wall placement distance. After that I focus on the tweeter reference level. I literally sit on pillows to adjust and find that. I've even hung a string off my ear to measure the distance once I found it. After all this you have perfect soundstage.
@Bombo5035 жыл бұрын
Ahaha, what timing - started doing the exact same thing recently with my Yammy NS1000m and I've now been staying up till the wee hours of the morning just enjoying the all-encompassing canvases! Thanks my man 😊
@wescurtis19615 жыл бұрын
Sounds stage is truly the magic of great hifi. It's the holy grail for me, and I'm always tweaking for even incremental improvements. This sounds like a great approach to maximizing the sound stage. I can't wait to give it a try. My speakers are currently 7 feet into the room. Luckily I have a long basement room that my wife has agreed to let me set up as I desire. What a great wife! It will be interesting to see where they end up using this method.
@Newrecordday20135 жыл бұрын
Keep me posted Wes!
@thereefaholic4 жыл бұрын
Finally a good explanation of what sound stage sounds like. I would always say that you hear it coming from every place except the speakers...The Dynaudio Sapphire speakers have a sound stage that comes from some magical place behind them... I would only differ on what track to play. I find that on that same Dynaudio setup, some recording simply have no sound stage at all. Great video. Thanks
@elderinmoi15715 жыл бұрын
Soundstage relies on accuracy meaning not only the sound is accurate but also the timing when each sound from each of the two speakers hits your ears. There is no soundstage with only one speaker or if you can only hear from one ear nor will you have it when the triangle between you and the speakers is out of alignment. And you will not have it with bad speakers because each driver must be perfectly aligned with the others so no sound, low or high frequency, hits your ears before the other. So while this exercise could help you to get closer, there is a lot more to it so don’t expect wonders ;) i still like your approach.
@DanCremeans5 жыл бұрын
Thank you for putting words to this phenomena. Many times throughout my speaker playing career I've locked into exactly what you are describing, the 3d sound via speaker placement which is so easily lost with just a slight move here or there. You've reinvigorated me to get back into the game and try your method, there is hope.
@kworx15 жыл бұрын
"Thank you for putting words to this phenomena" Lexicon and many others put words to this phenomena many years ago, its called Audio Imagining!!!! After all, what the hell do you think they were working on when the industry created Stereo!
@ddavidson674 жыл бұрын
klarion sinn , you are just IMAGINING that he claimed he was the first to put into words, audio IMAGING. He just thanked him for sharing it with people who are not familiar with audio IMAGING. I can only IMAGINE you now understand the true intention of his comment. Repeat after me... 🎶 It was just my IMAGINATION, once again, runnin’ away with me. 🎶
@sunsetjunior93135 жыл бұрын
I agree with the importance of it being at night. I am also thoroughly convinced that use of tTHC is also key. I can be listening just fine, burn one down, and within minutes my ears completely open up. Like night and day difference. While I'm sure plenty of us out there know this, I cannot recommend this enough if you're a serious or aspiring audiophile.
@TimpTim5 жыл бұрын
How refreshing!! Newer sub here, but quickly becoming a thought-provoked fan. Thanks.
@Newrecordday20135 жыл бұрын
Rad! Glad you are having fun!
@hiviman4 жыл бұрын
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS, i never knew i was missing this much, i have a good setup but always wanted more until this tip, now i get what 3D sound is wow just wow. setup is diy hivi swan m1's - AMPS are dayton audio apa100 class a/b and crown xls 1000- subs are 2 hivi m12's and dayton audio reference hf 15, please keep up the good vids !!! speakers ended up for me 6ft apart an 5ft from back wall
@Newrecordday20134 жыл бұрын
Dude I’m so glad it worked out well for you
@hiviman4 жыл бұрын
@@Newrecordday2013 thanks for the info
@cstoney4274 жыл бұрын
Thank you very much @Ron , but now I have a broken back trying to lift one of my B&W 803 D2's .........🤕
@Newrecordday20134 жыл бұрын
😂🤣😆😬
@chuckwilliams9995 жыл бұрын
Will give this a try to see if they end up in the same spot that they are now. Thanks Ron.
@allen00885 жыл бұрын
Your chick had to make sure you weren't on the phone with the side chick
@paulsebring72422 жыл бұрын
This method for adjusting the speaker position doesn't differentiate between adjusting speaker orientation (toe in) and adjusting azimuth. I can get better clarity from the speakers 90° to my left and right by rotating them toward me so that I am hearing them on axis rather than off axis, but there will still be a gaping hole in the middle in front of me rather than a plausible phantom center illusion. I think you should always point the speaker axis toward you and move the speakers forward until you hear a plausible phantom center illusion. Speaker angular separation might still be too wide and need to be reduced. I agree with the "listen in the dark" part. I am also a firm believer in Reflection Free Zone RFZ room treatment. Speakers produce sound that reflects from listening room surfaces. Phantom stereophonic illusions produce no sound. If you are listening to the speaker on-axis, off-axis speaker sound is reflected to you from the listening room surfaces. Listening room reflections of off-axis speaker sound arrive at the listener preceding recorded music venue reflections of singers and musical instruments. Speaker directionality and phantom illusion position does not replicate the coincident directionality and position of singers and musical instruments in the music venue.
@patricksmith10265 жыл бұрын
Fun idea. Creative idea. Good idea. Thank you.
@mrpositronia5 жыл бұрын
Sound stage is the thing that I'm always trying to squeeze more out of. Any hints and tips on how to improve are always welcome. Thanks! :)
@Newrecordday20135 жыл бұрын
Hope this helps man!
@tee-jaythestereo-bargainph21205 жыл бұрын
speakers disappear why I don't use a powered sub in my 2 channel listing but I feel ya been audiophile 31 years and back in the game wide open !! Thanks Dave
@danender55553 жыл бұрын
Right. Moving speakers towards a front wall one foot at the time until "speakers disappear". Now, do you have any advise on toe-in speakers? As a distance between speaker and front wall could be same, however toe-in angle will be (high likely) different for each speaker... Have you experimented with it?
@lwwells4 жыл бұрын
I have my near fields setup perfect for this. It’s like I’m in my own bubble. And in that bubble is my own concert.
@redstarwraith5 жыл бұрын
This is flippin' genius! Thank you x 1000!
@Newrecordday20135 жыл бұрын
Thanks man! Glad you found it useful!
@barneywee5145 жыл бұрын
agree with you soundstage is key criteria for me as well. the other criteria is imaging and layering. If they are in harmony, then it's nirvana. The way you start by lining yourself parralel to the speakers (without looking) is just pure genius! Absolutely, by listening to the worst then progressing slowly to the best sound quality position by moving the speaker back, is brilliant! Thank YOU!!! You should make more videos like this!!!
@Newrecordday20135 жыл бұрын
Thanks Barney! Glad you enjoyed!
@barneywee5145 жыл бұрын
Hey Ron, could you check your FB, I posted a question for you, I think your fan base would greatly benefit from your sharing.
@chrisgoodwin47865 жыл бұрын
Ron, fantastic video! This made my old, terrible speakers sound much better, and I have better ones on the way. Question, though: you said to start with the speakers about 7 ft apart. Is that just a set distance? Or should there be some way to choose that distance? Is it just that speakers disappear when they get into the position of an equilateral triangle? Thanks.
@peevonb70704 жыл бұрын
Thanks for this one man! At the Pawnshop was a new one for me. Sounds fabulous!
@jlo87753 жыл бұрын
Very cool! I’m finding that while this did help create an over all nicer presentation, the recording of choice really is the mitigating factor. Some stuff sounds ghostly and amazing while others can sound like the performers are in my lap.
@Neo-ug4nb4 жыл бұрын
This assumes that one would accommodate to any distance from front wall, however if not, one would need to change the distance between speakers and start the process again. I guess increasing will have the effect of pushing further away from you, so closer to the wall. There should be a limit of closing, where the wall will have effect on the sound. At least this is how I think. BTW, one may change its position by moving from the speakers backwards, instead of moving the speakers. When the Soundstage is there just measure the distance and place the speakers to this distance from the listening position.
@martinsapsitis4292 Жыл бұрын
Bang on intro Ron.
@Mark-rn6rs5 жыл бұрын
New subscriber Excellent production and content!
@Newrecordday20135 жыл бұрын
Welcome aboard my man!
@dragocat15 жыл бұрын
Watching this with a pair of Grado sr325s on my head thru a Topping DAC, Just subscribed!
@Newrecordday20135 жыл бұрын
Welcome aboard!
@Beatsnmotivation5 ай бұрын
I had that feeling before. But what do you think about mixing in that stage of the speakers sounding like that?
@TTTzzzz4 жыл бұрын
You did not mention 'toe-in'. Really enjoy your hifi talk. I am subscribed.
@Newrecordday20134 жыл бұрын
I’m gonna redo this video soon and make it legit. I’ll make sure I discuss toe-in as well.
@timgray9504 жыл бұрын
New Record Day looking forward to the update.
@jeffreyepiscopo5 жыл бұрын
Ron, have you heard the LS50? I think their soundstage is one of the best at close up listening.
@gbrm60775 жыл бұрын
My problem is having two 1/4 wave subs and two planers. Could get tricky.
@JJTMARQUES3 жыл бұрын
Ron your voice have a good sound stage in my loudspeakers :)
@kaybhee64 ай бұрын
ron dude... found out too,,,, goot...more stuff to try later too
@olisgrillcebu5 жыл бұрын
Thank you for sharing 👍
@mflt3025 жыл бұрын
Were you able to use this technique to achieve satisfactory transparency with the Tekton Impact Towers? Also, at what point in this method do you start thinking about toe-in (I assume throughout your description here you are using zero toe-in).
@Newrecordday20135 жыл бұрын
Good question! I always do toe-in last and rarely have speakers pointing directly at me, I normally have them straight into the room or just hitting my shoulders.
@ShellstaTube5 жыл бұрын
Was thinking the same. Different for different speakers ... But ... i seem to end up in a similar position for many ... Just outside directly at you - you can see a small section of the inside (side) of each speaker.
@motorradmike5 жыл бұрын
My DI’s seem to sound best with maybe at most 2 or 3 degrees of toe in. While their high frequency dispersion is hardly class leading and their cabinets are somewhat resonant at lower freqs, I can get these monsters to do a good disappearing act by bringing them into the room and away from front and side walls as much as possible, given their imposing size. Cheers!
@roybon4424 Жыл бұрын
hi Would you recommend to do the same method for the side wall ? Starting with speakers very close and then moving away to side wall ?
@freezerburn64545 жыл бұрын
I actually do something similar to turning out the lights but I can do this during the day search amazon for "Bucky 40 Blinks Comfortable, Contoured, No Pressure Eye Mask for Travel & Sleep" This is a sleep mask that doesn't press on your eyes so you can have them wide open in the dark. It's so easy to follow images moving in space with this sleep mask. It's like turning the lights out but now it's perfectly dark. It's like when you have someone speaking to you in a perfectly dark room, you know where they are and can imagine where the person is standing and even see them in your head. It's fantastic!
@Newrecordday20135 жыл бұрын
Thanks for taking the time to share!
@peteg61185 жыл бұрын
Interesting exercise. My speaker cables are 10-foot lengths so I may not quite get them to my listening position. I guess I could use the 12AWG speaker cable laying around that are not my Audience cables and then swap them when I find the right location. Thanks, Ron.
@terrytickler3 жыл бұрын
I wish I had the room I have no choice 2ft all I have
@hifi-x24354 жыл бұрын
Well done👍
@joppepeelen4 жыл бұрын
The recording angle>? you might want to lookup recording techniques having some sort of symmetry , and a triangle is not that weird.. since allot of the recording techniques are based on those. you can do as you please ofcourse, no one stopping you. but thats like using you EQ to tailor the smiley . witch is fine to but it is not a divine representation of what was the idea behind the way it was either mixed or recorded. especially the spatial X/Y setups used often.
@joppepeelen4 жыл бұрын
@Gryff Longprong i hope so :) but i must admit i had a hard time reading it myself! i have to watch the whole thing again to even know where i was going. i might not be from this planet at that particular moment i wrote that post.. :)
@bc527c5 жыл бұрын
I've been either too lazy or worried it would work... so I hadn't really pulled these things out past 5 feet, so this vidi was like a challenge... and to both my delight and horror the speakers responded positively... 8 or more feet out from the short wall in a 24x48 foot room. Sound is groovin' after halfway back... open baffle setup, big drivers. I guess the listening chair will go right about between the welder and the chop saw...
@Newrecordday20135 жыл бұрын
Badass!
@MaxwellCEdison4 жыл бұрын
Re: not hearing the speaker, What about on tracks that are mixed more like 'dual mono'? i.e. tracks where some instruments are hard left or hard right, like in many of the tracks from the 2009 Beatles remaster? In this case, should the instrument still not sound like it's coming from the speaker?
@tupuhumuhumunukunukuapuaa30934 жыл бұрын
I don't think you'll create any magic with those. hehe, asking the speaker to be a ventriloquist in that use case, I think...
@KHANGFU5 жыл бұрын
I have played around with speaker placement before and similar to what your talking about, I place my speakers a foot or 18 inches in front me and have the speakers pointed at each other. You have to have the tweeters ear level so your sweet spot is very tiny but holy hell does it sound amazing. I put on tracks of nature sounds and when I close my eyes, it sound exactly like real life. I played a track of bird sounds, and I would have sworn the birds were flying around the room. Music tracks are amazing too because the vocals on most tracks sound like they are coming in front of you. The instruments sound like they are inside the room. Obviously downsides are the sweet spot is very small and not everyone can put speakers right in front of you. But some positives are that they sound amazingly life like and you don’t need to turn them on very loud. And for people saying this is crazy, please do us a favor and try this for yourself to see what happens before you criticize others. Hell, get the cheapest speakers you can, place them a foot from your face and point them at each other. I promise you, it will sound amazing.
@Newrecordday20135 жыл бұрын
Thanks for watching and taking the time to leave a comment, I appreciate it!
@christianjforbes2 жыл бұрын
But I don’t have 20 ft cables 🤷🏻♂️
@RickMahoney20135 жыл бұрын
I believe some of the sound stage has to come from how the record ( music ) was processed. Not sure of this but I was told that many years ago and your not going to get sound stage from every song or not that good
@ryanschipp85135 жыл бұрын
I think Ron has something here but I totally agree with you in regards to the recording. I definitely know the songs in my playlist that have a magical effect and the ones that sound like everything is coming from just one plane.
@justinparkman35855 жыл бұрын
true any sound engineer will tell you your not getting what was the artist sounded like in the studio and only what sounds best or what the the artist wants you to here
@MikeGervasi4 жыл бұрын
My speakers are EQ'd flat for the room. Does that matter with this method? Should I turn the EQ off during the test?
@timgenardo2655 жыл бұрын
instead of turning off the lights can't you simply close your eyes?
@Newrecordday20135 жыл бұрын
Sure, just no peeking!
@timgenardo2655 жыл бұрын
@@Newrecordday2013 thanks for responding. not trying to be a smart ass. I just always close my eyes like a wierdo when listening to my speakers since I believed it sounded just a tad bettter. Seems like I was doing something right all along since you recommend listening this way to determine how good the soundstage is.
@mkwilson385 жыл бұрын
My current soundstage with Harbeth 40.2 in a 18x23 (with openings) room is fantastic even on older recordings. There is a complete 3D bubble of sound around the entirety of each speaker. Im love how things are finally shaping up in my system after a decade of trying to get there.
@bryaneditiontv6004 жыл бұрын
QUESTION ------ turn em by 90° facing directly backwards or slightly less but just enough so you cant see the buffle?
@bryaneditiontv6004 жыл бұрын
All good, it already got answered in another question.
@orwhat245 жыл бұрын
An amazingly useful video. For me, resolution is king, and I suppose that this requires a great sound stage. I’ve never heard of this technique before, but I’ve noticed that standing between the speakers and looking back at the guests with their mouths open as I play their favorite artist, that is fun!
@DBSTH0R4 жыл бұрын
After you do this, is there a point in installing sound diffusers and absorbers?
@Newrecordday20134 жыл бұрын
For sure! Always! Absorption and diffusion is needed regardless of speaker position.
@shadyoptics5 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the tip. How do you deal with the concept of toe in while you try different distances?
@dekz82 жыл бұрын
speakers 7ft apart, sit in a chair and move back and forth. done.
@ZxirlEffectz2 жыл бұрын
this doesn't work unfortunately. moving the speakers means the sound waves will be hitting your ears + room surfaces differently. the "golden" (or "where did my speakers go?! moment) placement is where every wave frequency is hitting your ear at the same time. What you describe would help you find a great spot to listen from given that specific location for speakers. If you already know where in the room you intend to listen from (i.e. chair, sofa, etc.) then that method wouldn't work.
@mschool4 жыл бұрын
My listening room is 8' x 14' If I move the speakers out into my listening area as you recommend, they begin very close to my side walls. Your tutorial recommends moving them incrementally backward, but never do you mention moving them incrementally closer to each other. What am I missing here?
@readytokill1234 жыл бұрын
Well its recommended that you have an equal distance from your ears to the speakers and between the speakers themselves. So if you bring the speakers closer together then you need to sit closer as well
@Leicaphile275 жыл бұрын
Can the speakers disappear with classic "Beatles Stereo" mixes where the entire drum kit is in one channel and missing in the other?
@Leicaphile275 жыл бұрын
Stereo imaging is non-existent. It's also difficult to listen to because it's so distracting. The modern mixes have corrected this, but if you have the old, uncorrected mixes, then it would be great to find a technique to deal with this...
@Leicaphile275 жыл бұрын
If the early stereo mixes were any good, then there would not need to re-mix them for the re-issues.
@timbathras26605 жыл бұрын
What timing... I didn’t do exactly what you mentioned, but I did start listening with the lights off at night recently and then found myself tweaking the speaker location until, as you say, poof - the speakers vanished and I was sitting in the room with the musicians not only in front of me, but as far back as to seem to come from behind the front wall.
@Newrecordday20135 жыл бұрын
That’s it man! Sounds like you nailed it!
@terrytickler3 жыл бұрын
That max I have is 1.5 ft does make a massive difference tho
@Shika1son4 жыл бұрын
Nice! Hope I could get this to work in my small bedroom. Could this work with a frontal stereo speaker? I doubt it could but was just wondering... o3o
@skeletor21184 жыл бұрын
This video gave me chills.
@Newrecordday20134 жыл бұрын
Oh? Why is that
@yeahthatsright333 жыл бұрын
@@Newrecordday2013 cuz he's really weird.
@neilfpv4 жыл бұрын
I'm going to do this test. Right now, my tower speakers are pointed to my listening seating position. Is that wrong? Looks like from your instructions, the 2 speakers' side wall are parallel to each other.
@EddyTeetree5 жыл бұрын
Hey allen0088 👍 Love to have heard the ‘Sound Stage’ in his house after he finished this video. Anyone else see the wife, in her nightie, stop and stare at him on her way to wherever. You better get a lawyer New Record Day guy coz sitting in the dark making videos for KZbin won’t keep her happy haha
@russelhaxby61945 жыл бұрын
Liked. Subscribed. I listen to a pair of Klipsch KG4's. About 4.5 feet from the wall behind them, 4.5 feet apart center to center, 4 feet from my ears. I just measured. With some clean, simple music, say a singer, guitar, piano, and bass. With the grills off and the lights on. Not only does the sound not come from the speakers, but if I look directly at a speaker, it is obvious that those two woofers and that steampunk-looking horn could not possibly have anything to do with the sound of Emmylou Harris's voice that I'm listening to.
@Newrecordday20135 жыл бұрын
Excellent! Welcome aboard!
@sinclabs5 жыл бұрын
Well done. Really enjoyed this video. If only my wife would allow the speakers farther out into the room. The alternate for me was to add more absorption on the wall behind the speakers to provide a deeper soundstage. Not as good, but all I could get away with.
@andynonimuss62984 жыл бұрын
All fine and good, but I would rather rely on a high-quality frequency measurement mic for the most accurate speaker placement.
@donstockman25313 жыл бұрын
Andy, I once thought like you. That is until I was able to pull off HOLOGRAPHIC IMAGING. I didn't belive what I was hearing. It's a complete game changer and shouldn't be disregarded. We all have room issues, REW and mini DSP help out tons. But that help usually comes at the cost of musical dynamics. I've spent countless hours looking at the same room mode calculator printout to find that optimal subwoofer location. The true is, once your room absorbsion and diffusion treatments are in order, find the best place for your speakers and the magic creates the rest. The room becomes the speaker. When done right, You can sit 1 foot in front of the speaker and not hear sound coming from it. The room is now the speaker. With that, even though we don't have perfect rooms, the music we hear will be musical. Even the notes that don't measure well will sound musical. It may not sound as awesome as a system that has all the bells and whistles but it's musical. I'd take a just okay quality budget system with holographic imaging over an expensive, ill adjusted, non treated room any day of the week. The budget will system will beat the high end system every time. Once i got this dialed in, I discconnected the mini dsp, turned off all forms of room eq software, and only use pure direct now. It sounds tons better that way. But only once i got the imaging figured out.
@justinparkman35855 жыл бұрын
instead of turning out the lights just shut your eyes .
@bwithrow0112 жыл бұрын
Hey Ron. I have heard Danny Richie pronounce your last name as Brenett. Is that correct?
@Newrecordday20132 жыл бұрын
Brenay
@bryfar61783 жыл бұрын
Interesting. My vintage preamp has the Carver sonic holography which produces amazing imaging with certain recordings. I'm talking sounds 7 feet either side of speakers. Preamp came with setup album, drawings and measurements. Not every recording is that impressive. I wonder if this setup works for ALL recordings? Alot of work scooting 80lb speakers around.
@bNNjh5fu000jy5 жыл бұрын
makes a lot of sense.
@prabhurc33 жыл бұрын
I tired your method and it did magic... :) Watched many videos on soundstage and image so far, honestly no one else talked about this. It's like you revealed the magic trick... thanks!!!... I got few follow-up questions, please let me know your thoughts on that. 1)Is it possible to get the soundstage for all three chairs in the row? With methods like extreme tow in? Currently I get the sound stage only from center chair. 2) Should the equilateral triangle still be maintained between the listening position and the speakers. Distance between listening position and speaker is much lesser at the point where speakers are disappearing. 3) how far the speaker should be away from the side wall? I have some limitations here on my home theater which would block the view if pulled beyond 2 ft from side wall. Distance between the speakers are 9ft. The speakers I use are klipsch rp280f.... My room dimensions : 14ft wide and 19 ft long... Seating position is 11 feet from the front wall.
@hi-fihaven22575 жыл бұрын
Great to see you man! Great topic for the episode. Love your definition of sound stage, I think I will make it mine also. Very interesting commentary. I am going to try the Ron method of setting up sound stage, using Led Zeppelin's You Shook Me. Man thanks for this video, great work. You, and your family have a fantastic Frequency Friday!
@Newrecordday20135 жыл бұрын
Always love your comments man! Thank you!
@d-man49373 жыл бұрын
Would you recommend doing the same (but perhaps scaled-down) in a small dj/studio booth in my basement? If what you say is true, my mixes and studio work could sound more rich.
@donstockman25312 жыл бұрын
your mixes probably already sounds pretty rich. It's my understanding that most studios don't set their gear up like that because of SBIR issues. They mount the speakers in the wall to get the best sound for what they're using them for. The problem is to really make your speakers sing, you have move em out into the room. Mine are 85 inches from the front wall to the speakers baffle. I've also heard some of the studio engineer guys mix on a rig not to unlike one you might have. Then they listen to it on their HiFi system to really enjoy their work. Regards,
@andershammer93072 жыл бұрын
In order to get a good soundstage you have to have a decent CD player or turntable. In my experience a cheap CD player will sound like you pushed the mono button in. A good CD player will give you a better stereo soundstage.
@brendan52352 жыл бұрын
Moreso than digital lossless?
@harishparvatham29063 жыл бұрын
How to decide where should I be sitting ?
@liquidimprints3 жыл бұрын
So question, would this formula work for adjusting each home theater speaker?
@kendoglarson54193 жыл бұрын
I find all speaker placement with home theater is easier than 2 channel stereo. The changes are easier to detect....so easier from that perspective, however, more effort due to more speakers and essentially multiple soundstages. For simplicity sake a rear & front soundstage. The perfect seating position is where those two stages merge.
@HAL90074 жыл бұрын
Love the darkness idea. Love starting with obviously bad and working towards not-so-obvious good. But I PROMISE you, there's parts I don't understand. The speakers are 7 feet apart and close to you at the START. Are they toed in at all? How much? How do you change toe-in as you move speakers back? And do you keep speakers 7 feet apart as you move them back towards the front wall? Hmmm. If yes, then you are having three variables -- distance from listening position to speakers, distance of speakers from front wall, and the ratio of both -- and controlling two non-variables -- listening position distance from front wall and distance between speakers. Seems iffy to me. But I will try. I have done extensive experience in near-field listening at my desk and have been blown away to hear sound sources on some recordings, like a banjo, from WAAY outside the speaker position, while pinpointing the lead vocals flat in the middle. Pretty cool. Neumann KH120 speakers and PSAudio GainCell DAC. Wonderful combo that far exceeds my previous favorite -- Sennheiser HD600 headphones. I finally have speakers that sound better than really good headphones. Now I need to work on my main system -- all PS Audio electronics and Tannoy Cheviot speakers in a non-ideal room. Thanks.
@NicolaDiNisio4 жыл бұрын
My take was, no toe-in at the beginning. Keep the speaker straight, facing the wall on your back. As you have found the best location, apply the desired toe-in and evaluate whether it makes any difference in you setup.
@HAL90074 жыл бұрын
@@NicolaDiNisio Thanks, Nicola. What about distance between speakers? Experiment with that before or after toe-in? (It's funny, I find with most guys, they (1) place speakers as far away from the front wall as is allowed by the wife, (2) then experiment with distance between speakers, (3) then finally, toe-in.) Listening position and speakers distance from front wall are usually the two non-variables. One final tip from a non-pro. If you light a bowl before turning off the lights, your speakers will always sound better.
@NicolaDiNisio4 жыл бұрын
@@HAL9007 I have setup the speaker 2m apart, and with the usual toe-in. In the end the winning position resulted to be the classic equilateral triangle, with the speakers and myself forming an equilateral triangle, with each side measuring 2 meters, and about 1 meter free room behind the speakers and behind my back. The resulting soundstage, as well as tonal balance is so much better that I have marked the listening position and the speakers' position on the floor with black tape. I cannot leave the speakers in the middle of the living room during the day, but when I am listening to my stereo, I will definitely move the speakers to the new found place and I will sit where the black tape is!
@HAL90074 жыл бұрын
@@NicolaDiNisio My experience is pretty close to yours. I toe-in half the difference between straight ahead and pointed at my head. It's a pain in the butt to move my speakers out to the prime, "lights out" position -- Tannoy Cheviots, 65 lbs ea. (I also tilt them back about 5 degrees which improved them immensely. And I use isoAcoustics GAIA III which made big difference.) Thanks for the help. Stay safe out there. ~ Hoyt from Fredericksburg, VA USA.
@junacebedo8883 жыл бұрын
Solo operatic voice. I elevated my stereo speakers at 5 feet and they are just 4 o 5 feet apart. I'm just 3 feet away. The voice is neither on the right nor the left, I got terrified coz the soprano's mouth is in front of my face !!
@ukbij4 жыл бұрын
Ron, have you combined this approach with extreme toe in hack for the horn speakers?
@econautx3 жыл бұрын
I have horn speakers. What's that hack you are talking about?
@hanknalley79985 жыл бұрын
Hey Ron. I’m really struggling with soundstage and making my speakers disappear as this is my ultimate goal. Sorry for this newbie question but here we go. I’m using a pair of Vandersteen 2C’s which should image like crazy. I’m wondering if the older Yamaha AV receiver is my problem. Will an upgrade to something like a Schiit Saga make much of a difference? Let me know your thoughts. Thanks.
@Newrecordday20135 жыл бұрын
Hank, Great question! I doubt the change in the amp is going to take a speaker that struggled with staging and completely transform it. Try my method outlined in this tutorial and let me know what happens. If you dont get some staging out of the speakers while trying this, I would say the issue is either the speaker themselves or the room acoustics.
@hanknalley79985 жыл бұрын
Hi Ron. Thanks so much for getting back to me. I’m sorry I was not clear. I do get soundstage and the speakers almost disappear but with most music I can still tell where the speakers are. I do have bass traps and 5 absorbers. Maybe I’m too over damped.? I’ll try your method but I would swear I’ve had the speakers in just about every position. Very frustrating. Thanks again for your help!
@dynodin814 жыл бұрын
Hank Nalley Hi Hank, I do think that by swapping your AVR to a dedicated 2 channel amp you’ll get closer to what you are looking for, especially speakers that already have good soundstage. For example, my AVR receiver sounds good with my speakers but once I upgraded to my 2 channel tube amp it does things with soundstage that my receiver could never get close to. I do switch back forth when watching movies but when I want to experience sound that surrounds me I switch over to my 2 channel amplifier.
@dajikbatarang15 жыл бұрын
Im gonna need longer speaker cable
@64fairlane305 Жыл бұрын
You do not need to turn off any light if you have a good enough system but be aware of any small powersuplies like phone-chargers, they produces a lot of distortion
@MurderousMindstate Жыл бұрын
Its not about electrical interference it is about peeking of the senses. By turning out the lights you are making your brain focus on sound as a survival technique. When you cant see your surroundings your brain automatically enhances your hearing. Also as he describes in the video, you are focusing on where the sound is coming from. By not being able to see the speakers you are not expecting the sound to come from their direction. You want your mind to think the sound is coming from any and all directions. I have a set of speakers that in 2 channel mode sounds like some sounds are coming from behind you. That is a good soundstage as the whole environment surrounds you without having surround sound.
@64fairlane305 Жыл бұрын
@@MurderousMindstate You have never heard a good enough system
@johngreek5 жыл бұрын
Detail without good soundstage for me is notthing .. i aggry with you that the soundstage should be the first one !!
@keeloraz94524 жыл бұрын
so which way should the speakers be facing again ... towards you ?
@Newrecordday20134 жыл бұрын
Depends on the speaker. I typically start with the speakers straight and adjust toe-in after to taste.
@freezerburn64544 жыл бұрын
@@Newrecordday2013 How about for Magnepan? I'd assume same situation, right now I have the tweeters pointed in a way that if I had a laser coming off the tweeter section it would intersect a little in front of me with tweeters in. I hear a good center image but things on the side of the soundstage do at times sound like they are coming from the speakers depending on the track. I haven't figured out if I want the intersection to be in front of me, on me, or behind me. Then again some people have Maggies pointed almost straight forward with and almost no toe in.
@MAB_Audio_Nut4 жыл бұрын
@@freezerburn6454 Magnepans with the tweeter In is a bit tricky and can make the sweet spot small and a bit elusive. Things to think about with a laser as you said the tweeter should be coming straight at your ears on each side to start and than move your head forward and back to see where the sweet spot is . the mistake Maggie listeners make is having the bass panel in the wrong position and that really messes up the sound stage Magnepan and I have found you want the bass panel 1/2 inch to 1 inch closer to you than the tweeter. this is what become very hard with the tweeters in. if you do it as he says above work your way back ignore all the Maggie rules to start find where there best than toe them in to where the bass panel is where I said and then play with ok where are the tweeters now you can get magic. I would also do it again with the tweeters out to see what works best. I like the tweeters out for a couple reasons I have a chair on each side of my chair so I'm trying to make not only the sound stage larger but with them out the bass panels are in the right position compared to the tweeter. The bass is slower to your ear the the highs if the bass panel is back compared to the tweeter it compounds the affect. I find with the tweeters out the chairs on the side get a better more centered soundstage than tweeters in. But try it both ways.
@sunvalleydrivemusic4 жыл бұрын
New Record Day are you adjusting toe in after you have the right distance? Toe in can make quite a bit of difference so I’m trying to discern where in the process this happens.
@keeloraz94524 жыл бұрын
New Record Day ok thanks got it.
@zzt231gr5 жыл бұрын
Is it me only that needs expandable speaker cables?
@Newrecordday20135 жыл бұрын
Haha! Go hack up some extension cords for this if you can’t reach! You do make a good point!
@0oXcaliburo04 жыл бұрын
what if you blindfold yourself and take a step back at a time instead of moving the speakers? will it work?
@andru26254 жыл бұрын
That won't work, because the speaker sound change in relation to the room walls. So, changing your position relative to the speakers does not afect the percieved sound so much when compared to changing speakers position relative to you and also to room walls.
@0oXcaliburo04 жыл бұрын
@@andru2625 Thank you
@911turbojk4 жыл бұрын
Guys my system is killing me , its sounds “ stereophonic “ when I say put my two hands behind my ears, and everything just stands up , holographic , pin point , but then when I put my hands down ... the sound stage just fall down... I tried toe in , etc., Could it just be adding more absorption to the room to clean up the reflections? Thank you all for the advice , i just want to be in that STEREO BUBBLE! I want to sit next to BILL EVANS and Bob Marley , I don’t want to just sit behind the club ! I want to be there as the mic ! Lol ! HELPPPPP ~
@justplanefred2 жыл бұрын
I'm no expert on this but I'd say your getting reflections perhaps from the back wall or similar from the way your hands are blocking them