L.O.T.S. Loudspeaker Optimization Techniques for Soundstage!

[@Newrecordday2013]

One thing to note: Siri and (assume Google) will be using decimals while I am using inches/feet. Feel free to convert if you want but keeping things simple, my method/math will get you close enough!

[@DesignVisStudios]

Do you mean: metric? :)

[@Amleria]

God bless the imperial system. #MakeItSimple

[@m.r.3128]

OK this isn’t difficult, my American cousins - 1” = 25mm/2.5cm. God willing this will allow a very quick and simplistic formula to abide by. If you’re absorbing NRD beyond my abilities this should be a no brainer 30cm per foot as 🇦🇺 has/had a foot in both camps for to long; imperial is just not accurate enough and is aligned with a generation before mine in the land of Oz. As an engineer mate near enough isn’t good enough, but, clearly Ron made it very clear this is not an exact science, many things will impact the riggs performance 🎭 Thanking you Ron for giving clear advice and justifying the importance of consideration toward placement ✌🏽🔊

[@JamieCashin]

OK now I notice this comment after making my pedantic comment LOL

[@QoraxAudio]

Metric > imperial

[@jefferyeckes5343]

As a pro audio engineer for more than 45 years I have to tell you, you nearly nailed this. You missed talking about one very important part of this, and the part this is unique to each room; standing waves. All of what you showed is 100% legit, (though I disagree on toe-in for reasons I will detail in a moment), but standing waves are where your entire process can fall apart.. In my particular room, if I put my listening place in your recommended spot, the bass falls off to almost nothing (cancelling wave). Move 12" back and it gets too loud, move 12" forward and it dials right in. My room is an anomaly, but the point is to listen CAREFULLY and not just follow 'instructions', no matter how talented the presenter. Now, to toe-in. Toe-in sets up more cross talk between the speakers, which can produce lots of standing waves. Standing waves are USUALLY heard the best in the very low frequencies (described as 'booming' in many cases) but toe-in causes these at MID frequencies (possibly what you are calling 'shouty'). Yes, these DO indeed 'color' your sound, but I would postulate that all you are doing at that point is adding 'confusion' to your system. I've actually tested this in an arena system as we were developing the 'flying array' systems that back in the 80's and 90's that are the norm now. We found that toe-in actually increased our power and coverage needs. Once we plotted the frequency responses from each side independently, then both sides together, it was clearly apparent that the speakers were 'fighting' each other when toed in. When left flat faced to the audience (even toed OUT a little) the edge response from each array summed in the middle to sound even across the room. Later we added center array's for vocal clarity, but kept the gain about 1-2db down for that array. later, when we began to run stereo rigs, we split the center array down the middle and discovered 'center channel' was better for an arena. It actually enhanced the stereo mix by allowing us to pan harder left and right without depriving the audience on the opposite sides of information. I think the case was that it may be a little easier to 'hear' these things when your room is hundreds of feet in each direction, and your sound system is driven by 150,000 watts! It does not hurt to be working with Dr Bose and Jack Weisberg (legendary NYC sound company owner) either! In summary; talk about standing waves and how to listen for and accommodate them in the listening environment. Thanks for the great information videos!

[@SlowCarToChina]

That’s really interesting! In my home studio I have each speaker pointed right at my face. Are you saying I should have them pointing straight down the room, sort of playing right past my head?

[@johnmcinnes9399]

@@SlowCarToChina The only thing you can do is try it out, and see what sounds best to you. It's your ears that will be listening to the music.

[@jefferyeckes5343]

@@SlowCarToChina A speaker has a 'sound stage' and most designers do their thing with the speakers flat, not toed in. Try it flat. Close your eyes and 'position' each instrument on that soundstage. Make a 'map' in your head, then try it with toe-in. You decide. I find that the soundstage is more nuanced with my DCM TF750's flat, but they are exceptional imaging speakers. One thing you will find is that the smaller the 'face' of the speaker, the less an effect it has one way or the other. This method also brings your listening room into play more, which I prefer. Happy listening!

[@TheRealMcShady]

I have a very similar issue where my imaging is best but the bass just dissapears. I've currently got it setup where I have a nice even frequency range but have to compromise on imaging. I keep hoping I'm going to find the magic spot where it all just works but it has alluded me so far.

[@Airavida]

@@johnmcinnes9399 so I have Totem Sttafs and after I set them up I was puzzled , i wasn’t that happy with the sound. I felt the midrange was completely missing even though I toed them in to Face my ears. So I looked up online and almost everyone said for these speakers they should be 6 ft apart maximum (I had them 10 ft apart as I thought this would give a wider soundstage) and TOTEM advices do not TOE them in , just keep them straight forward and three feet away from the back wall (I had them right up against the back wall). After changing them from 10 ft apart to 6 ft apart and not toed in , they sound so much better. The midrange has returned. For Home theatre I don’t see much difference if they are against the back wall or not (that may also be because the bass frequencies come out of the subwoofer) but for music I definitely do notice a big difference and what people said is correct . I pull them forward 1.5-2 ft in front of the back wall for music , that’s the best I can do (3 ft is too much) and the sound improves for sure even though the wall is reflective glass and I should probably put some foam on the wall behind the back port of these speakers

[@fod8768]

THIS IS INCREDIBLE!! For YEARS I knew something was off with my system and followed advice both from the manufacturer (Focal) and from countless "experts" online. The general idea of what everyone tells you is "avoid corners", "use an equilateral triangle pattern", and "listen and experiment". I am a very detail/fact oriented person, and your approach with 1 foot quadrants perfectly measured took enough of the guess work out of this to help me get my system perfect. For anyone reading this, IT WORKS but you need to follow things exactly. Put the tape down. Measure everything... It will take about an hour of prep, but its worth it. The dark room idea helps as well. I started from the back and actually encountered two spots where things sounded incredible. Keep this in mind if the first spot you find isn't ideal. Also moving the speakers to the left or the right in the square changes things A LOT. I honestly wasnt expecting this. When you find the right spot, move the speakers far forward again then back a foot at a time... confirm your results! Sending you a little something via PayPal as a huge thank you for this free advice!

[@Newrecordday2013]

Holy smokes man! Got your donation and can’t thank you enough! Really happy that you appreciated my tutorial and that you are up and running!

[@arun2995]

I tried it out tonight without exact measurement just to see and it work great. Gonna try again tomorrow with exact measurements as you suggested.

[@jdavis417]

I can't believe it... I ended up with an equilateral triangle! LOL

[@joaodz8]

Now I just need a listening room

[@kumarsaride5054]

+1

[@mightybenaiah9076]

I saw this video so long ago, but the information you shared stuck in my head. After two years I finally finished purchasing the items needed for a respectable system. It was tough having to sit and look at each piece on my shelf and wonder and dream of how it would all sound some day. Well today was the day I finally set it up. Like many, I pushed the speakers back to the wall so there would be ample flow through the room. The sound was detailed and accurate, but something was off. There was no "presence" to the singers and instruments. It was then I remembered your LOTS technique. I pulled the speakers WAAAY forward and started listening with my eyes closed in a dark room. I backed them up until I heard what you described as unmistakable and boy it was. When that spot hit, suddenly I had musicians and singers centered right in front of me with decays off to the sides. If I hadn't experienced that from your words of audio wisdom, I would have been missing the real joys of owning an audiophile system. I would have wanted new speakers at a minimum and perhaps even thought it was altogether a waste of money. But when the soundstage was properly set up, a huge smile just lit across my face. It was emotional, involving, and it drew you in. My room may not be neat and orderly when compared to others, but oh the sound, the glorious sound. Thanks again Ron

[@imral3]

O.M.F.G! This is amazing. I thought I had things dialed in pretty good and I was actually close. BUT... Using this method I wound up with my speakers moved back about 8 inches more than I had them (1/3 into the room, opposite of my chair) and about 4 inches each more toward the center of the room. My goodness the speakers completely vanished, the soundstage opened up and is vast and cohesive. I couldn't be happier. Thanks so much for this!

[@abritishaudiophile7314]

There is LOTS of great advice in this video (sorry, I couldn’t resist). Rock solid method to getting your speakers in the right place. Well done buddy! Best wishes from the other side of the pond, Tarun.

[@cerisjones6690]

Ron, this is genius. Magic did actually happen. I will always be grateful for this advice. I certainly like it LOTS and LOTS. Get it. The soundstage on my speakers was so impressive and the speakers themselves disappeared. Wow!! Thanks so much. Your channel is both entertaining, informative and fun. Keep up the good work. Best wishes from the UK. :)

[@Newrecordday2013]

Wonderful!

[@stanmonish3532]

Wow ! This absolutely WORKS !!! I've tried other speaker placement tutorials and never got the effect that this has produced, but this method brought out a surround sound effect that I have NEVER achieved with my system. I couldn't believe it and even my wife sat there in the sweet spot and was amazed.. and she is a hard customer to please I can't leave the speakers and seat in the locations that I ended up with, but they are marked on the floor for those times when I want to enjoy my stereo. It is amazing Thanks a million !!!

[@Newrecordday2013]

Heck yeah!

[@redstang5150]

And this is the difference between a real listening room and a home theater, or a family room. Hard to get perfect speaker placement without a dedicated room where you can get the speakers away from the walls. Because of the layout of my theater I've long known that my speaker placement for music sucks so I'm knowingly sacrificing it - but I've been doing it for so long I'd sort of forgotten about the 'magic' I know my speakers can deliver. You've inspired me to move them around - if even for the day - just to experience the magic again. Thanks! Maybe the sliders need to be permanent - move them out for an occasional listening session - slide them back when done.

[@bradisley517]

Nice Job! The more transparent your system the more fine the movements can give improvement. I was at an audiophile club and helped them set up for a listening party. The speakers were getting fine tuned for the sound stage. The designer finally liked the position and put on an album. The recording of a bird flew in from high left, landed just slightly right, and flew off to the high right. When the system has the ability, the recording is well made and the sound stage is perfect, a holographic magic that can make the music bring the dead back to life even if just for a song or two. You can literally hear the individual breaths of the singers, the ridges of the strings on the base and the keys of the trumpet valves sliding and clicking. The 4 jazz musicians all had there position where the music came from. While I understand the science, it still seems more of magic and art. Surreal is my best description. What I took home that day was the magic is possible. You start with the science to get close and then learn the art to perfect the magic. I now work for that Speaker system designer. Not a day goes by I don't learn as much as I can handle. I still have a long way to go. I will say my system in my little apartment blows my friends away. My room treatment is pure mad scientist. It wouldn't work anywhere else.

[@ericdaniel323]

Thank you so much for this! The tip of starting with the speakers all the way out instead of up against the wall was GOLD. I thought the poor sound in my new house was a function of reflections and a bad room. I was ready to drop a bunch of cash on room treatments and even shop for different speakers (and i love my current speakers). Turns out I just needed them about 6' off the front wall. Now my soundstage is holographic and the tubby bass is tightened right up. Outstanding. Thank you again!

[@bounty446]

Nice to fix it at NO COST

[@mattfenton3806]

Hands down the best speaker placement video there is! I've tried so many of them and could never get it right with the limited space i have. I tried this method without even doing the exact process and had fantastic results! Can't wait to actually follow all the steps all the way through to see the results! Thanks for all the work you put into this these tips have completely transformed my listening room!

[@Newrecordday2013]

Awesome!

[@martone6852]

Hi Ron, I have watched hundreds of videos on acoustics and this is by far the best one on speaker placement. You will have to follow it up with sub placement for sure and please include setting the cross over. Also a mention about height maybe even in the desciption would be helpfull.... And to anyone who can't leave their speakers out in the middle of the room, you don't have to just put a small sticker on the floor and bring em out when you want to spoil yourself.

[@ronnyek3031]

:

[@philproffitt8363]

@@BubblePuppy. There's a simple way to make a dimple... kzbin.info/www/bejne/bHWZd56hoZ13ack

[@rotaks1]

Ron, This is a fantastic episode. I tried it and the results blew my mind. I had to make a few compromises but all in all, now I understand speaker disappearance. Thanks so much! Love this episode. Please keep doing stuff like this.

[@Newrecordday2013]

Great news! I love it!

[@oleksiifilippov68]

Yep. My father was telling me that his speakers are front ported, so it doesn’t matter where they are. Until recently, when I came and moved them away from the wall and he’ve heard the thing. Now he’s a believer) Thanks for sharing the technique, I’ve done it mostly by ear. I’ll certainly try it.

[@michaelmartin3026]

I’ve always kind of instinctively known this but your step by step procedure is so clear and concise. It should be “required viewing “ for any young audiophile. Brilliant work Ron , well done! I laugh when I think about how many times I’ve suggested to friends to come on out into the middle of the room and play... that’s where the magic happens. Wives hate me ! I try to settle them down by explaining how much money I just saved them in upgrades😂😂😂. A room is a terrible thing to waste...

[@snomofilms]

This may be the best video on KZbin

[@joshuajones9482]

I want to be brief for the time being, this LOTS system works some serious magic with my speaker placement, Ron thank you so much for a clear understanding of what to listen for and how to go about doing it, music is now detached from my speakers with a spooky holographic phantom image.

[@Newrecordday2013]

Yessssss!

[@deanna6359]

I'm so glad I found this video! About 10 years ago I invested quite a bit into my sound system, especially the speakers, and I thought I had it set up pretty well, and was quite pleased with the sound, but somehow felt it was lacking a certain something... well this was it, I just needed to pull my speakers away from the wall! I could only bring them forward 30cm, but even that was enough to make a big difference, the music has really come to life, I'm enjoying my CD collection all over again. Thank you so much! 😊

[@clydedmello2634]

Greetings from the UK. Thank you for this video. I tried all sorts of methods to get sound stage breadth and depth. Most worked quite well. Yours was perfect and much easier to fine tune. Probably the best and certainly the cheapest major upgrade for any system. Thank you.

[@Newrecordday2013]

Awesome!

[@careerdetective]

The best explanation of placing I have ever heard/seen. Thanks, dude. Keep on rocking.

[@Newrecordday2013]

Hey thanks man

[@terrygooglewassgoogle1767]

You are a genius! I followed your advice and it was like "Abracadaudio". Speakers are surprisingly far into the room but the sound stage is amazing. Thank you!

[@Newrecordday2013]

Awesome!

[@jackvanderwerf1294]

The math is very much in line with what I've read, then done. And when you're close, an inch or 2 out or in, forward or back can make a noticable difference. But I have NEVER been able to make those speakers disappear. When good, the speakers are like the microphones, and the performance is behind and outside their placement. That's been like the holy grail for me. Great tutorial on the mechanics of getting it done. Thanks.

[@Newrecordday2013]

Thanks for the comment!

[@ranbymonkeys2384]

A good way to look at it is you want the sound to be coming from behind the speakers. When you accomplish that, then they are gone.

[@henrychan6982]

Ron this was great. Thank you. Hope you and your family are doing well.

[@vladimirfreddie]

I totally agree with the lights off eyes open approach for listening!

[@fondriest777]

Game changer. I had never worried too much about my listening position relative to the room, but that combined with having my speakers almost in the middle of the room (front to back) has created a depth of soundstage I hadn't heard before in my space. I'm using Cornwall IV speakers, nowhere near a corner or wall :)

[@coldfinger459sub0]

You’re always stepping up your game. Taket level 👍

[@Newrecordday2013]

Hey thanks!

[@barneyjones5174]

I used painter's tape and moved the speakers an inch at a time. Listened over the course of three or four days. Outstanding sound stage and imaging as a result.

[@Chase1297]

How far did they end up from your back wall

[@barneyjones5174]

@@Chase1297 Floorstanders, about 6 feet to the wall.

[@tinnitusintx]

Few things...one, folks should know that combining the set up recommendations you present along with creating an (early) reflection free zone at the listening spot with a few strategically located absorption panels to kill those earliest hard reflections takes all this magic to the next level (there is soooo much more to behold beyond the "center image") and can remedy image shift issues in room set ups that don't allow for symmetry (equal distance between speakers and side walls). I remember your video on room acoustics, and I kept waiting for you to reference it in this video, but I suspect you were keeping the size of the pill small so folks who haven't embarked on the placement/room acoustics journey wouldn't feel intimidated or overwhelmed. But I think you'll agree that the payoff when combining the two is orders of magnitude more effective and affordable than something like expensive cable tweaks and/or upgrading your $500 DAC to a $1000 unit. Two, you could probably do an entire video regarding how what we see when we're listening affects sound stage resolution. Lighting is a huge factor, but so is something like having metadata on a monitor in front of you that draws your attention away from the "free air"...or even one’s physical/emotional state (rested vs fatigued, sick vs healthy, etc). Fascinating chit. And lastly, and its pretty pedantic, but THANK YOU for calling the wall behind the speakers the FRONT wall and the wall behind the listening spot the REAR wall. Drives me nuts when people reverse it (and I see and hear it happening A LOT in hifi discussions). Ok...time to get back to work on my GRR x-Statik build. ;) Outstanding job on this video, BTW!

[@ranbymonkeys2384]

I bought a FX Audio DAC for 50 bucks. I replaces the electrolytic capacitors with film caps and now it sounds like a $3,000 DAC. Oh ya I forgot about the OPA-627 "can" style op amp. That was a bit pricey, but holly smokes!!!!

[@ottobus71]

Best how to on speaker set up ive ever seen!

[@mjsmith79]

Great job Ron. This is the best explanation I have ever heard or seen. I can’t wait to try this!

[@dicmccoy]

I'm getting a kick how you're saying tape measure (maysure). Love it. 😂 I had to rewind a few time to make sure it wasn't my hearing.

[@Newrecordday2013]

Hahaha

[@hayb2007]

Just did this today. Totally life changing. My speakers are now super near field like literally a foot away (open baffle full range speaker) and I finally got the imaging I have been looking for. In fact I’m returning my center channel because I am now totally ok with a phantom center. You have saved me a lot of money and sleep less nights fiddling with stuff thanks you! Ps: can’t wait for the M6 and Spring 3 reviews those are my end game additions hopefully!

[@k.6867]

Great, brilliant, fantastisc. Haven't done my "homework" yet, but will the minute I have the time. I love Your work, thanks!

[@TheKyotoKid]

Having setup near field in a 10 x 12 bedroom for the last 2 years I can honestly say that it is a great solution especially for problem rooms. I ended up, after trying a few different speakers, with a pair of vintage Boston Acoustics T830 3 way floor standers, though admittedly due to their short height I had to raise them a foot from the wood floor it actually helped decouple them, and being a sealed design it keeps the low frequencies from being overpowering, especially as they are just 2 feet from the wall. I never thought a fairly large speaker could work so well in a smaller space. I sit about 3 feet away on a fold down bed that serves as a couch, pulled out abut a foot from the opposing wall, works a treat. Of course, it is beneficial to use quality components that hopefully work together, I rotate a Yamaha RX 1100U receiver, Harman Kardon HK 3500 receiver and a Luxman L 215 integrated. They all work well , complimented by a Sansui SR 525 turntable and Denon blu ray player that I use as a transport through a MF V Dac. I did position a pair of fairly expensive 2 way bookshelf speakers on top of the T830s and although a bit higher than optimum still manage to sound very good thankfully. I even prefer sitting near field in the larger living room with some larger floor standing speakers and find it just as enjoyable so well worth giving it a try. If one has the good fortune to have the dimensions to take advantage of substantial full range floor standing speakers sitting further back can be quite the experience but most of us tend to have more modest systems with various constraints in place and so near field makes perfect sense with many more advantages than disadvantages.

[@ahlbergmagnus]

Tried this today. Worked great! Finally I have a holografic soundstage.

[@jeffberwick]

Great advice and technique. So many people ignore the stuff that REALLY matters for sound, like speaker placement and room treatment, and get obsessed with the oxygen content of their AC power cables!

[@3leggedgenes]

People that worry about oxygen-free copper should do us a favor and do their listening in an oxygen-free room.

[@jeffberwick]

@@3leggedgenes Haha!

[@Corndog642]

I just got started and it freaking works. I have a small room. Wow. Thank you!

[@Newrecordday2013]

Awesome!

[@enjoyunreality]

It is magic!!!!!!! Thank you so much. If you listen once like this, you cant go back. It is not music anymore

[@TheFleckening]

DMS sent me here, I’m not disappointed.

[@Newrecordday2013]

Love that dude!

[@RobWhittlestone]

Cool advice. About lights off: if you have any light dimmers, thyristors can be putting nasty electrical spikes on the mains supply. Lights off: no electrical spikes. Also LEDs are known to generate radio frequency (RF) interference (RFI). Neons indicators in power strips add white RF noise. RFI / electrical interference may be disturbing the mains frequency transformers of your gear leading to a more constricted sound. All the best, Rob

[@Newrecordday2013]

Thanks!

[@kendoglarson5419]

I found this my own way. We got to the same place in different ways. This is very cool. When I get a new listening room I will do this and mine using this as my basis. Excellent video. Thank you for the beautiful explanation.

[@alashton4529]

After spending a year trying to get my stereo to sound like what I knew it should be I spent yesterday morning employing the L.O.T.S. system. I finally realized how much of my mid-range had been missing. When they locked in the mids bloomed which made the true bass more apparent. This in turn helped me to integrate my pair of subs much easier and I am much much closer to realizing my rig's potential. Thanks! You've probably saved me some big $$ in component upgrades!

[@bippie999]

Wow! What a difference. Thanks for the tips.

[@robvandendolder3157]

Thanks Ron, simple well explained tutorial, great acronym 😀.

[@Leeloo102007]

I think this is a nice starting point when setting up in the long axis of a room. In my case, I have my listening axis short, meaning my front and back wall are the long walls of my rectangular living room,. This setup gives me a sound stage unbelievably wide. I can get almost 180° with some tracks. Yet with depth giving me that 3D, holographic illusion. Also check out some technical from Audio Physics. I also think that the rules of 3rds and 4ths can be broken, don’t be afraid of going wider with more toe in.

[@jonathanluttrell1380]

You're amazing! This worked wonders in my odd small shaped room(10x10x9 effective). I am getting some GIk acoustic treatment soon. I had my speakers too far apart. I watched your small room video too. Took the best from both.

[@Newrecordday2013]

Awesomeness!

[@xeniavader]

Also try this - put both speakers against the back wall - pull only one forward until the bass goes from boomy to tight. 1/4 inch at a time, go slowly - then pull the other speaker forward until the image of the singer is dead center (track much have a center placed singer) - use a musical track that's well recorded. In the end, your speakers will be very close to where your video puts them. One speaker will be a little closer, this compensates for asymmetry of most rooms (door on one side, window on the other..etc..) Everything snaps into focus when you hit the right locations.

[@zagazagazagaz]

Just drop in and say thank you for such an incredible advice! I played around with the speakers for the whole morning and i was fascinated. Not only me, but my wife too who doesn't know much about acoustic She could hear the difference. What's more, you van move your speakers wider or narrower to suit difficult genre of music if you need more vocal or soundstage. Wonderful

[@moniack]

My wife told me there was something wrong when she was listening to an audio book because there was no sound coming out of the speakers (just the phantom center). I'm still playing around with placement.

[@markielinhart]

This was great Ron. Trouble is when your listening room is your living room and that is open plan. This is my dilemma, especially when I factor in the island bench kitchen. Love ya work!

[@Newrecordday2013]

Chainsaw?

[@markielinhart]

🤭 got my speaks on standmounts with mini castors so they can be moved around easily but not in the dark...

[@robertuskoppies444]

Hi Ron, I just came across this vid when watching Tarun's (A British Audiophile) channel. So I was curious. Some of my buddies tell me that my listening position is completely "off", because I'm sitting in "monitor position" in a 4m (wide) and 5,5m (long) listening room and not in a "triangular" setup. Guess what, I just measured my position, which I have found after years and years of listening. Just to confirm that your L.O.T.S. is spot on: my ears are around 1,85m away from the front wall and my speakers are located exactly in a track that is between 1/3 and 1/4 from the side walls. The speakers are pointing at the outside of my shoulders, so I can clearly see the inner side wall of each speaker (nice check up to see if you toed them in evenly). So this is indeed an excellent advise for loudspeaker set up!

[@Revivethefallen]

That was great. I've learned I need to move my large Advent speakers.

[@cau8365]

Thanks for the tutorial Ron (it's built-up from your Frequency Friday). My system sound improved drastically using your method. Due to my irregular room shape, my final added step was leaning forward, backward, left , right, and diagonal to fine tune the sitting position. Much appreciated.

[@SimonBrownja]

Such a great video. I wish I could like it twice. Very helpful!

[@195516Z]

This was absolutely useful information ! And it was actually fun to do! Thanks for this.

[@Thevikingcam]

Dude! Dude! You saved me about 10k€. My triangles are now singing like they are 15k€ what is heard in shows. Sadly i have wasted years on the back wall starting point system. It was c r a p... Ty!

[@Newrecordday2013]

Fantastic

[@heyyou21able]

This is awesome, well thought out and repeatable.

[@bobcat6653]

I'm an Engineer so your approach makes a lot of sense to me, I can't wait to try this myself. You have a new subscriber! Thanks!

[@Newrecordday2013]

Welcome aboard!

[@psydemekum]

*damn this clarity and wide sound stage i never heard from my klipsch before. very nice, thx:.

[@alexc2231]

I think the last part - toe-in adjustment deserves a detail video on its own - the listening, measurement (just for validation - I'm sure there are people out there who wants to quantify things). Oh... there are speakers out there with round edges (i.e. not boxy and hard to 'see' or observes the sides being equally toed-in). Nice job!

[@Invictus96vid]

I've been doing this for years. You are correct about the importance of soundstaging. You might also consider the fact that the ceiling and floor also constitute boundaries, and that the height of the speakers might become relevant (This might make rake a bit more critical). There are room mode calculators that might help determine where NOT to place your speakers (especially subs) and/or listening spot. I completely agree with you that optimal speakers/listening spot placements can facilitate most speakers sounding like they cost hundreds, if not thousands of dollars more. Even critical listeners might find that they have been missing subtle, but important details due to the lack of proper soundstaging. Doing the work required for proper setup is a PIA, but you only have to do it once for a particular set of speakers. New speakers will usually work well close to the positions you found to be best, but will likely require some fine-tuning re location and angles. The major downside to these techniques is that many listeners are more concerned about visual aesthetics than audio clarity, and those considerations might make "new" placements hard to accept.

[@scottnorris9079]

Or placement restrictions, such as in hone theater. If you want to maintain an equidistant circle between 11 channels, it’s hard to move your front channels into an ideal position. It’s a trade off, but then your not depending on just two speakers to give you your soundstage either

[@Invictus96vid]

@@scottnorris9079 Space restrictions would make that somewhere between tough and impossible (especially with 11 speakers). In my case, I made the front surround channels the first priority, and optimized their stereo soundstage. Everything else was built around that, including the size and placement of my screen. Concentric speaker placement was easy to achieve (It’s only a 5.1 system and uses suspended “rears.”). This works very well, but only for solo, quasi-nearfield viewing and listening. It won’t work for groups because of the small screen and sweet spot. I sit very close to a relatively small screen which occupies as much of my viewing area as a large screen would at a greater distance (inverse square, etc.). For “serious” listening I use a 2.1 system 90 degrees off from the surround system. I swivel my chair 90 degrees to listen to that system for reasonably uncompromised music experience. All speakers are within the same concentric circle, but cannot be appreciated by multiple people. Subwoofers go where dictated by room modes. This would never work within a conventionally set up living space. It throws typical room aesthetics out the window, and makes the entire room only useful for solo AV and computer use, which was my goal. Essentially, I am at the center of a hemispheric AV media “bubble” constructed within a 25 by 33 foot area. Others (wife and guests) within my house have their own listening/viewing spaces and systems, but have no access to mine. (Selfish much? - Yeah! Happy with the outcome? - Yeah!).

[@scottnorris9079]

Invictus96vid I appreciate your realism in the fact that even after all the effort that goes into creating a similar listening experience across all the seating, 95% of the time, it just ya nerds sitting alone in a dark room listening by ourselves lol. Might as well just be using my headphones (well... not really 😉). I like your idea for two channel listening. Gives you the best of both worlds! Wouldn’t work for my Setup but I think that’s rad. Happy listening!

[@SteveGerrardPhotography]

Thanks for this. I tried it as best I could in my room and seemed to work well. I'm in a big basement room where I have to have the listening space more to the right of the room due to a support pillar and window. I also can't have the couch as far back as suggested. The listening spot and the speakers kinda make an equilateral triangle which I guess isn't ideal. It was fun testing out options though and still pretty pleased with the results.

[@Zuringa]

You've got to be kidding me! I have spent 2 years not knowing what this system is capable of. I'm astounded!!! And all it is is Elac UB5s, an Onkyo integrated amp and my laptop. Wow!

[@Newrecordday2013]

There it is! Bam!

[@peniku8]

So many tools and yet not a single measurement mic in sight. Better sound explained by 'magic'. Splendid.

[@leonidasharbalas8758]

Wow! This is fantastic! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

[@Pentenfi]

This is a great method. Although problematic if you don't have a dedicated listening room and can't place all furniture accordingly. But I will definitely try doing my best😅

[@mrk8212]

Outstanding tutorial. I have been serious about music gear for many years and I knew nothing of this. Thank you!

[@shipsahoy1793]

I've known this for years, but I don't always have a room that's perfectly doable, but sometimes I do, and I have done it. It's fairly amazing and surreal when you nail it lol wives can have a tendency to be uncooperative, but I have a reading room in the house that was big enough where I able to pull that off..👍

[@tg6373]

I love the Marshall half stack on the back wall. Keep it spicy!

[@aussie_philosopher8079]

That video was done really well. People need to hear differences in slight increments so they can determine the differences before arriving at the sweet spot.

[@bujoun76]

As soon as I get past the "WAF" I am totally doing this...!

[@thedirtydutchman9749]

Fantastic video Obi Ron

[@JoelBursztyn]

Hi Ron, I liked very much your video and I had summarized it for myself. I have it in power point with chart but I don't find a way to send it to you. So here is the verbal part: 1. Measure Room and Identify L & W 2. Let L3= L/3, W3= W/3 and W4=W/4 3. Stick Tapes on floor marking W3 and W4 and each 30cm cross the room for Y positioning candidates 4. Position Speakers and yourself at Start Point (0) Y at L3, x between W3 and W4 5. Select a music track you know well which contains more than one singer and have several instruments The sound stage of starting point should not be good. We shall make it better by next steps 6. Searching for Optimal Y positioning 7. Move Speaker in Y axis 30 cm (one line grid) and listen Again. 8. Repeat until you hear a separated sound stage, continue until you feel it goes worse and go back to the best point We found the best Y 9. Finding the best X (placement in width). Move speaker to center on W3 and W4 line, identify the improving direction (inward or outward) 10. Keep moving on the best direction (out side or inside the room) half speaker width each step until finding the best X 11. Finding the best rotation angle, rotate in small steps until best result I will be more than glad to share with you and your listeners the chart. Publish an address where I can send the chart.

[@madamerosario]

Hey man, I really appreciate this vid. Thanks for the tips. Someone asked a question I also have. When you measure the width of the room, do you measure the distance between the side walls or the width of the listening space? I have an L shaped room with dining room on the corner of the L and living room next to that.

[@adamp88]

Fantastic video! I finally got around to trying this in my new stereo listening space (have had Axiom M60s for years, but due to various reasons *-cough*WAF*cough-* have been sitting in a closet for years until we reorganized our office to include a reading/music nook). In my 10x20 room, the speakers had been sitting just a foot off the front wall and 1.5ft from the side walls, toed in slightly. I know it’s not ideal, but WAF has its limitations and I was thrilled that she suggested bringing the speakers out in the first place. :) After doing the LOTS steps, it turns out that the magic spot for the speakers was 4 feet from the back walls (with the listening position ~7ft from the back wall), 2.5ft from the side walls, with . The magic is real! The improvements in imaging, soundstage, balance and realism are downright startling! I’ve always enjoyed and been impressed by my Axioms, but wish I knew years ago just how good they could sound with proper placement. The downside? There is no way in hell my wife would be okay leaving the speakers sitting 4 feet out into the room. I’ll just have to move the speakers out for listening sessions and move them back for WAF. But I’m okay with that.

[@charlielopresto1700]

Great advice on all counts! Just a damn good, down to earth video...period! Thank you!

[@philrob4468]

Stumbled upon the channell as im down the worm hole of hifi on youtube... i cant wait to do this tomorrow when i get home from work... you got a subscriber

[@indranilmitra6535]

I hate you Ron, cause this works to perfection. My room is far from ideal and this method still worked. Unfortunately the speaker position has to be in the middle of the room. Guess I'll have to pull it out everytime i sit to listen for long hours. No big deal, totally worth it.

[@amankarwa1305]

This is awesome! Please keep sharing tips and tweaks.

[@The-Spotlight-Kid]

Gr8 vid for an ultra- fast learning curve on speaker placement.

[@charlesmiller6281]

Very good info. Best thing I can add, once you are done with all of this, use the tape and adjust if necessary until the speakers are within 1/16" of the exact same distance to you, and toed in absolutely symmetrically. Because once you get close then eliminating even these tiny little imperfections delivers focus and depth you have to hear to believe. Can you tell I have done this a few times? 😁

[@masterxyr]

Douglas sent me here Very glad I watched this. superb work!

[@Newrecordday2013]

DMX is cooler than everyone. True story!

[@audiorick841]

Thanks for all the efforts you put into that one Ron, fantastic video.

[@Grizzly1644]

I would also advise you take some REW measurements at your preferred locations. This will provide a good frequency overview of each location, so you can see which position provides the best response.

[@Newrecordday2013]

I agree

[@CUBICUB]

Great tutorial. Just “corrected” my rig. WOW

[@seb250cr]

Life changing video !! Thank you so much !

[@livingahumanlife2651]

👌🏼👌🏼 like the level of professionalism, can't get much better than this. Thanks for sharing the knowledge🤝🏼

[@JG-DivMan]

First off -- this is excellent advice and thank you for sharing it. When I first started getting truly interested in creating a quality listening experience (many years ago), I had a less-than-ideal room but still managed to stumble my way (mostly by luck, to be honest) to making an excellent soundstage. Even then, I'd heard enough live (acoustic, mostly) music to realize that I wasn't hearing these sounds a two distinctive sources, but as an experience unfolding in 3D space with notable perception of width, center, and depth As you said, once experienced, anything else is disappointment, regardless of the specs of the gear. This approach assumes a rectangular, regular-shaped listening area with freedom to place the speakers wherever. For many, though, this just isn't the case, and speaker placement comes down to a combination of available locations and whatever one's "significant other" will tolerate. This may explain why "against the wall" shows up so frequently, even from speaker companies that surely are aware of the soundstage concept. Placement restrictions aside, do you have any tips for dealing with asymmetric listening areas?

[@tupuhumuhumunukunukuapuaa3093]

"When you're done, you should have something like this" See's two babies rolling around... I guess I've been doing it wrong? Awesome tutorial!

[@RoTeNdO]

The reason why you'll be able to hear better in the dark as oppose to closing your eyes is due to cognitive psychology. It's the same reason we turn down the radio when we're driving through unfamiliar areas, looking and reading the street names. SCIENCE! Got to love it, right? This video on the other hand was educational, informative, and helpful. Very good stuff.

[@vinylrulesok8470]

What a great tutorial, totally different to anything else I’ve seen. I’ve been playing around with speaker placement and been amazed at what can happen to the sound with small changes to speaker position so I’m going to try this. Also, aren’t you the guy who did the VPI Prime set up video? It was really helpful when I bought my VPI Prime

[@Newrecordday2013]

Yup, many years ago. Glad you enjoyed lots!

[@sergelanglois753]

I m a new member and dammmm It s a LOTS of very good infos 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽 thanks a lot

[@Newrecordday2013]

You are most welcome!

[@AudioGearhead]

After checking out a couple of your videos, this one made me sub. Very well explained and put together. I have just recently experienced the sound stage from two towers and listening to music is a completely different experience now. Thanks for the hard work!

[@kazaakas]

But what about oddly shaped listening rooms/areas? For example, I have a 13ft wide, but quite long living room. Part of it is the TV/HiFi area, another part is the dining area, another part is the kitchen area. There are no walls in between. What do I do?!

[@elongatuspiranha]

I just finished with my media room and I'll be trying this out in a few days. Can't wait. Only problem is my room is only 9.5ft in length. So that's siting 3' 2" away. Not going to happen. I really can't change where I'll be sitting but the speaker position can be played with a bit. Thanks Ron!

[@harpalchauhan428]

I've had my dream set up since 2013 i have 7.2 set up for home cinema, but for music use 2 channel only and no subwoofer is used with music because I've set my audyssey set up on my speaker to go low to 40hz and rest of calibration is done by audyssey 32x calibration. Been into home cinema since 1996 and music since 1986. Lol always nice to see someone take there time out to help other in easy steps took me loads of reading and research to try to get the perfect sound which is virtually impossible good tip i have carpet in my room but two thick rugs that cover most of my listening area to help absorb the first reflection points

[@mcaddc]

Thanks Ron, great tutorial, shedding light on one of the most overlooked setup parameters for quality sound enjoyment. Can't beat learning from the success and experience of others.

[@MikeGervasi]

I used your prior "LOTS In the Dark" version. This updated version is much more in depth and I think a must for everyone looking to get their sound right. YES a bit of it seems silly but if you follow each step you WILL truly find magic.

[@Newrecordday2013]

Thanks Mike!

[@MikeGervasi]

@@Newrecordday2013 Ron, when measuring room width what do you do in cases where there are shelves, cabinets, etc from the floor 1/;2 way up that would acoustically reflect most of the sound? Do you ignore that or regard that in the measurement? I disregarded it but to this day am still not sure.

[@Newrecordday2013]

@@MikeGervasi yup just ignore them.

[@DrSamE]

In a small room, unfortunately the best place to put your speakers, is up against the front wall, it minimizes the SBIR. The bass boost you get from the front wall is also minimum phase.

[@FOH3663]

It's all about the room Great stuff Essentially this is similar to "HP's Rule of Thirds". Which is always a solid platform from which to begin to operate. The math/physics involved suggest the "38% Rule" is a good place to begin, ie., listening position being 38% off boundary wall behind listener, or off boundary wall in front of listener. Always be mindful these are theoretical ideal, and in situ measurements trump theory. The 38% point is simply the best mathematical point for the most benign blend of peaks/nulls in that room axis. Most enthusiasts don't want to know why, ... they just want a guide like you offered in this video ... so great stuff! Your an asset to this community. I truly dig the music accompanying the vid. All the best, Kevin