Not Pollini but Charles Kunkel leads to Beethoven Paradise! Double MM's in an 1875 Czerny Score!!

Double (!!) Metronome Numbers in a unique 1875 Kunkel edition of Czerny's School of Velocity.
"Double" in the sense of: both the original Czerny MM in Whole beat AND new MM in Half (Single) Beat. What do you need more...?
Edited and published by Charles Kunkel, one of the famous 'Kunkel Brothers', two successful piano virtuosos and business persons.
This score is only explainable from the perspective of the historic existence of the WBMP (Whole Beat Metronome Practice). Period. Case Closed I'd say (but is way too interesting to continue building our library of WBMP casestudies)
This 1875 score indeed is UNIQUE for giving both the authentic Czerny MM's AND newly suggested tempi as well. Unless one would want to label the Kunkel brothers, students of Thalberg and Gottschalk as total ignorants, this score ONLY makes sense when accepting the WBMP as a historic fact.
This score is a platinum document in our tempo research. Share it, use it, ... since it in fact is the only thing you'll to convince your conversation partner.
The life and work of Kunkel Brothers are fascinating to look into, you'll get some background in this video as well, so no excuse for not watching :-).
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#wbmp

[@AnnaKhomichkoPianist]

Like your videos, always on point!

[@classicalmusiclover4029]

Anna Khomichko Pianist Do you believe this?

[@Clavichordist]

@@classicalmusiclover4029 I don't know what you are referring too, but if is regarding the difficulty of the Czerny Etudes you may want to watch this first. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y6CbXqaGqpt3q9E

[@thomashughes4859]

@@classicalmusiclover4029 This and all research is not about belief. Either Czerny's MM is read using the period of the note at the vibration rate on Maelzel's scale, or it is read at the beat rate itself. No other choice exists. This is not about belief. Use the preponderance of the evidence to form your conclusion, and then test it out by playing both. There will you find the truth. Anna, that you are weighing possibilities speaks very highly of you both as an excellent performer, which you are, and a true well-rounded musician. I salute you!

[@classicalmusiclover4029]

Thomas Hughes I think there is something wrong in the whole beat theory. So how are Violinists for example supposed to play at half the speed of what Beethoven wrote? Some techniques on the violin are only possible in the tempo that Beethoven gave (the normal Beat counting). Or singers for example. How are they supposed to sing at half the speed? Nobody has such a long breath and the metronome markings by Schubert or Schumann make perfect sense. In half the tempo the music would sound awful and not only that it would be impossible for the singer to sing it.

[@thomashughes4859]

@@classicalmusiclover4029 I must admit that I am not a violinist, so if you would please demonstrate this, yourself (since you made the claim and must be an expert or have access to one), or get me access to a video that demonstrates this, it would then give your claim credibility. I would like to see the technique that “fails” when Beethoven symphonies are played at Beethoven’s suggest tempo in Whole Beat Metronome Practice (WBMP). I am a well-trained vocalist. I currently live at 1,888 metres (6,100') above mean sea level (important for a vocalist as you may well know). Please present me with a piece of music that we are certain contains the MM equation from the - and this is very important - “THE COMPOSER HIMSELF”, and I will sing it and post it for proof that it can be done. You have made two claims that must be verified. You find the violinist (hopefully you) who plays in this now ancient technique, and I will do the singing myself. Are you willing to accept WBMP as valid should you find your resource, and I should demonstrate mine? This is a “yes” or a “no” answer. Please answer so that I know you are serious about the truth. Thank you., Tom (I'm real out here on the web, not a pseudonym, which is credible all by itself)

[@gustavf.6067]

New video in the morning! Made my day. Thanks, Wim.

[@cosimoleone9110]

This time, you 'double' beat me ;)

[@antoniavignera2339]

Interessante vedere come questi grandi compositori hanno dedicato il proprio genio per il progresso tecno-ritmico . Grazie Maestro per l’eccellente lezione.

[@enzoleone5904]

The only thing that Kunkel score proves is the fact that Czerny proposed MM are wrong but it doesn't prove anything else in particular double beat. The edition proposed by Hans Semper , US edition as well , published at the same period than the Kunkel's one and available on IMSLP, contains the most interesting information with respect to Czerny tempo: it says : "The original Metronome Marks have been retained, although, according to the most eminent musical authorities they represent a tempo from 20 to 25 per cent faster than even clever pupils attain. In fact, a tempo somewhat slower than indicated is in many cases of great advantage to the musical value of theseStudies. The editor's experience is that the best results are obtained by always practicing these Studies in a slow tempo, (Moderato or possibly Lento), with strong, firm finger strokes, occasionally making attempts at performance in a more rapid tempo (Allegro or even Vivace). Any portion of the Study which cannot be properly performed at the increased rate of speed should be immediately practiced again in the slow tempo. Practice should not be confounded with attempts at performance. "

[@Renshen1957]

Enzo Leone, Are you speaking Ex Cathedra, from either divine inspiration or Ouija board communication with Czerny's spirit? IMSLP has the Edition Neue Ausgabe edition of the School of Velocity published circa 1840 (one would have to see if there were "watermarks" on the original to confirm this) published in Vienna: by A. Diabelli and Composer, during Czerny's lifetime. The first composition one sees in this Video at 0:13 can be found in the PDF conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/c/cf/IMSLP593590-PMLP3452-czerny_op299_diabelli_CzerDie_49124441X.pdf at reference 36 of 89 images, the publication page 34 on the printed page. The Metronome number is MM 1/2 note = 96. Tempo Molto Allegro. One cannot claim that Czerny's publisher made a misprint, as Czerny was co-publisher with Anton Diabelli. When Diabelli moved to Vienna, besides earning a living as a piano and guitar teacher, he found work as a proofreader for a music publisher. And the composer/teacher Czerny's status wouldn't have let this mistake slide, either. The music publishing firm he co-founded with Cappi recognized and earned its primary revenue by from the arrangement of simpler versions popular pieces for amateur/beginning pianists home performance, primarily from popular operas of the day, dance music,, and new comic theater songs. That was their niche market among publishers in Vienna. Diabelli and Cappi championed the genius of Schubert (first publishers of the Erl Koenig), and won praise from for this, however, the company had a short life. An argument between Cappi and Diabelli saw the departure of the former and the establishment of a new publishing house. Diabelli was both a savvy and shrewd business man in addition to promotion, what we call "marketing" today. After Franz Schubert's death, Diabelli purchased "a large portion of the composer's massive musical estate from Schubert's brother..." organist and teacher Ferdinand Schubert who designed the grave stone for the grave of Ludwig van Beethoven, which is now at Vienna's Central Cemetery. Diabelli would publish these works slowly from 1828 onward, incrementally, and the firm that bore his name continued the practice after the founder's death in 1857. "Diabelli produced a number of well-known works as a composer, including an operetta called Adam in der Klemme, several masses, songs and numerous piano and classical guitar pieces. Numerically his guitar pieces form the largest part of his works. His pieces for piano four hands are popular." Yes, he composed more than the Waltz for the Promotion, that Beethoven would, after being asked for a variation, (Mozart's son was also asked among the list), either thinking the request was a slight or for his reasons composed those variations which stand with the Goldberg variations as the two greatest works in that form. My point, a proofreader, composer, pianist, publisher, etc. Diabelli wouldn't have made such an egregious error as to get the MM number wrong and sell a work that his main clientele, amateurs and students, couldn't play, and with the composer with in close proximity, to correct, in essence "looking over his shoulder." You did not discover or cite contemporary 19th century criticism of Czerny's exercises or possible candidate names of those ""eminent musical authorities," which by Kunkel supposition attempted to fathom out why the composer Czerny (if in single beat usage is prevalent in post US Civil War prosperity by 1870's) wrote, indicated, and published MM on his Etudes/Schools impossible rate of notes not playable on the majority of the pianos in existence in Vienna or in the USA when Czerny wrote, in the 1870's onward, by the virtuosos of Czerny's or Kunkel's day or for that matter today. Much can be said of Czerny, and it's a pity that his unpublished manuscripts of virtuoso piano works did not see the light of day in his time. However, the publishers of 19th Century main audience was for relatively simpler works, and technical exercises, which Czerny "mass-produced" which detracted from his gifts as a composer of art music. Liszt and Schumann wrote on this, and from what they would have to judge of the published works, one cannot fault their criticisms without the benefit of that what is still to this day unseen and unheard.

[@Renshen1957]

@@walterbohner7484 What proof of inaccuracy in the video? I cannot fact check the "eminent musical authorities," of Kunkel's quote by Enzo Leone, as he conveniently for his arguments Kunkel omitted their names and verbatim quotes. Leone hasn't supplied contemporary with Kunkel, critics, teachers, or authors from literary quotations from circa 1875 to support or refute what Kunkel has stated. Kunkel's generalities in the quote replies falls into the category of subjective criticism. Without providing quotes from the 19th century, it's more like Enzo Leone killed two stones with one bird." He quotes Enzo Kunkel, but that neither proves the level of the "clever pupil," or that the readers of Kunkel's publication were using single or whole beat (double beat) in his reply. The quote taken be taken out of context without examples, however, the presence of Czerny's original MM number and Kunkel's MM, can support one of several possibilities. 1. Playing at half speed upwards Whole Beat suggestion for students to properly learn the piece (pedagogic instruction). 2 As Kunkel, writes "a tempo from 20 to 25 per cent faster than even clever pupils attain." reference to usage in the USA of single beat. If 96 MM is unplayable in Single beat for the novice, this might be an adaption, and would provided ammunition for Czerny's MM indication for Whole Beat. 3. Or as Wim writes, Proof of two systems co-existing side by side 4. A combination of "All of the Above." I will conclude that you are among the Down votes to the Video, Enzo Leone. However, in black white, there's an enigma, which begs the question, Why both MM indications?

[@enzoleone5904]

@@Renshen1957 The source is easy to find , you go to the IMSLP site. I suppose , you are familiar with it You look for 'The School of Velocity, Op.299' and you search for the Hans Semper edition . You will find the comment about tempo at the bottom of etude no 1. Apparently you can't copy the links here.

[@joanesperito3514]

@@Renshen1957 There a few other publishers that have posted double indications for Czerny etudes. These editors haven't provided alternate MM for the Beethoven scores they also published. Therefore it seems to me that the most plausible explanation is in synch with the quote given.

[@MelodyChangDipABRSMCTABRSM]

Many thanks for your every video 🙏

[@SinanAkkoyun]

Wim, you were right all the time. Thank you for sticking with it.

[@madosinoid]

This channel is pure gold! Awesome contents!

[@jimfowler5930]

Perfectly stated and delivered to us!! Vielen Dank, ich habe alles genoßen!!

[@SinanAkkoyun]

Ich auch :3

[@jobebrian]

I enjoy your videos, but I admit I was chagrined to see “Not Pollini” in the title, as I’ve enjoyed his recordings for going on half a century now. Ao thanks for clearing that up at the end. Perhaps you can persuade him, Pollini, to play according to the Kunkel scores!

[@dougr.2398]

Archive.org

[@joaoterceira9671]

Interesting subject that is ! Now , if you search for other publications of the Kunkel brothers on archive org web site , you will find op 409 and op 740 of Czerny , revised by Von Bulow and published by the Kunkel's . Then you realise that it uses the same kind of double notation , but in much clearer way that indicates to the student the range of MM he should be practising . So in fact , it is not a double notation ( single / double beat) but only a range of recommended MM for the apprentice. In addition if it was a single & double beat co existing indications, the later would be exactly half the value. So I am afraid that this doesn't tell us much ...

[@AuthenticSound]

There is a clear difference between several MM as practicing speeds AND just a range of 'right tempo'. No way someone is going to start to practice in the slowest Kunkel tempo, that simply would be insane. Someone who did indicated several MM's as well for practicing speeds is I. Phillip, I made a series of video on his work: kzbin.info/aero/PLackZ_5a6IWWxHJiI6R-i5PWKd-edtdhQ

[@Clavichordist]

Those piano prices! A grand for under $400. Kunkel Bros. publications are interesting to read through. They published under pseudo names as well as their own and also took famous pieces and edited them with special pedal markings, annotations, and fingerings for the many piano students in the day.

[@jassskmaster7575]

that $400 would be worth something like $10,000 today

[@utvpoop]

Since 1875, the US dollar has become much cheaper due to inflation.

[@Sshooter444]

That was probably half a year's salary for a middle class person, so like $30,000 today

[@Renshen1957]

@@Sshooter444 When I was a child minimum wage was $1.10 USD per hour. One could purchase 11 Hershey Candy Bars (full size). That would be equal to $17.49 in today's money buying power, not inflation calculated, as these Govt. Stats for inflation are misleading. I could purchase 9 comics books ($0.12) which at the cheapest price would be $29.90 in today's money. Minimum wage isn't adjusted with inflation or comparable buying power. On the other hand a hand held calculator (the first digital instrument, the other was an electronic organ) cost $100. in 1972, I can purchase better one for $1. in a 99 Cent store.

[@joanesperito3514]

There is a simple logical issue that bothers me with your explanation. The revised notation provided by Kunkel is meant to played following single beat rules as he reduced the original value. If his own interpretation was whole beat and if there was no doubt about Czerny having written in whole beat, there would be no need to change the notation. So in other words Kunkel assumes his audience will interpret his publications following standard nowadays interpretation. Now, if you look at Kunkel piano edition of the allegro of Symphony no 1 Beethoven , he proposes half note = 88 with only one notation. So given Kunkel scores are meant to be interpreted in single beat, that proves that the way we interpret this symphony in 2020 is the correct one.

[@joanesperito3514]

@@benjaminachron1493 now, that confirms my thoughts. I think, here we are in a situation where the owner of this channel is in the position of a scientist conducting an experiment to prove a theory and ending up proving the contrary.

[@HowardTse]

Where can I buy the $396 "Baby" Grand Piano? 🤣🤣🤣

[@ElSmusso]

You’re videos are a blessing, in these troubled times ♥️

[@baxter5431]

For Bach, his contemporaries & earlier composers who didn't have the "benefit" of the metronome, how did THEY determine the correct tempo for any piece? My opinion is that is was primarily an oral tradition handed down for generations from master to student. There is C.P.E. Bach's "Versuch" & I have to go back & see if he makes any specific comments about tempi but maybe not since it WAS an oral tradition & just taken for granted by anyone who was a student of someone from an earlier generation. You probably know this already though.

[@AuthenticSound]

Notation told for a longtime what the 'range' of possible tempi were, starting from the 'normal' (common) time. I should make a series of videos on this, and when one would start from the mensural notation with the ruling tactus, the overview would be fairly simple. Here is an older video on tempo ordinario that might help already a bit: kzbin.info/www/bejne/opOnqq2KfbSVars

[@rudrashakti108]

Would this lend new insight into the controversy around the hammer klavier sonata?

[@AuthenticSound]

yes! kzbin.info/www/bejne/bYHaoHmlj7mHfrc

[@Renshen1957]

Carl Czerny, besides Franz Liszt, among his students one finds Sigsimund Thalberg who came to Vienna with his mother Baroness von Plankenstern at the same time and same age as Liszt. Charles Kunkel teacher, Sigismond Thalberg also studied Piano with Moscheles who had the impression that Thalberg had already reached a level at which no further help would be needed in order to become a great artist. Most likely Thalberg's mother, Baroness Maria Julia Wetzlar von Plankenstern, an accomplished ("brilliant") amateur pianist in her own right was Thalbergs' first teacher. Thalberg according to rumor, was the illegitimate son of Prince Moritz Dietrichstein and Baroness Maria Julia Wetzlar von Plankenstern, however his birth certificate lists, he was the son of Joseph Thalberg and Fortunée Stein both from Frankfurt-am-Main. (When you are a Count or Baroness, you can buy anything. Supposedly Thalberg's name was a combination of the Germany words for Valley and Mountain by his mother, or so some book on great pianists stated 50+ years ago. In 1830 Thalberg met Mendelssohn and Frédéric Chopin in Vienna. Their letters show their opinion that Thalberg's main strength was his astonishing technical skills. I presume everyone knows of the rivalry and the contest between Liszt and Thalberg. Wim, does the Kunkel brothers have any printed works of Thalberg? And as a student of Czerny, doe Thalberg,'s compositions contain Metronome marks? I must confess business prevents me from searching scores.

[@Renshen1957]

@@benjaminachron1493 Many thanks for the heads ups and the resource of where to start looking. After the busy holiday season, I look forward to some down time. My only scattered collection of Thalberg compositions from the pre-internet days (I used to haunt used book stores and antique shops for leather bound music books) contain one of his works on three staves (similar to organ music), which Thalberg pioneered this method of writing.

[@michaeledwards1172]

Can someone who understands the "whole beat / half beat" controversy explain it to me in plain words, please? I don't understand it, and various videos about it have never explained it clearly, and neither have the comments underneath. If it's a real issue, surely it should be easy to describe. But it doesn't seem to be easy to describe.

[@michaeledwards1172]

@@dorette-hi4j Thank you for this explanation. Does this view have any support in the musical world beyond Mr. Winters? I have to say that everything played at half tempo just sounded lumbering and ridiculous. But I still find it puzzling why Mr. Winters believes what he does. I mean, if a composer has written "[Crotchet/Quarter note] = 72", it seems to me to say unambiguously that there should be 72 crotchets per minute. It does not even refer to whole beats or double beats, or to any other details of the mechanism you use to measure the tempo; it simply tells the performer how many crotchets (or whatever note is being treated as the basic beat) are to be played in one minute. I am still at a loss to understand how halving that number so you arrive at 36 can even arise at all, when it directly contradicts the instruction to play 72 crotchets per minute. If Mr. Winters wants to continue promoting his case, I think he needs to learn how to describe his thesis clearly and unambiguously. As for myself, his theory completely lacks any credibility that I can see.

[@cernestable]

I still don't feel confortable with the Kunkel's faster MMs, specially when he wrote these ossias, making the Op. even harder, which for me, would maybe comprise some slow down. This speeds are set in an 71% average fold, and seems very nice for me according to the musicality of the Czerny etudes (several years ago I played lot of them at 70-75% due to my aesthetic feeling of them), and much of the Beethoven's work for instance. So in conclussion, I guess there is something right in what you're saying, but something may not. I feel that most of this classic pieces should be interpreted at 70-75% speed. But this doesn't seem to match mathematically... Nice video anyway. It makes think out of the box. Congrats👏👏

[@hudsoncampos5976]

👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽

[@watchmakerful]

What is the "x" symbol on many notes instead of fingers?

[@fredscott7712]

Thumb

[@watchmakerful]

@@fredscott7712 And other fingers are 1, 2, 3, 4?

[@SalseroAt]

@@watchmakerful yes

[@fredscott7712]

@@watchmakerful x=thumb, 1=2, 2=3, 3=4, 4=5 the old-fashioned style of fingering numbers

[@Clavichordist]

As other have said x = thumb. It's very confusing when trying to translate into modern fingering. I've have written in the modern to figure out what it supposed to be. This was developed in the early 1800's in Great Britain, found its way to the United States, and was replaced early on in England by the fingering we used today, but remained in circulation in the US for quite sometime before it disappeared. The Viennese fingering, or the fingering we use today, is so much easier to remember. No wonder it was replaced elsewhere, but sadly probably due to the distance from the rest of the music-world, the US was quite isolated so the former colony didn't change the practice as quickly.

[@Wazoox]

This is THE PROOF :)

[@cziffra1980]

This is your smoking gun? Seriously? The vast majority of his suggestions are in the no man's land between your theory and a literal interpretation. This is just a guy who didn't take Czerny's marks seriously. Nothing more. Why exactly would he have so much authority on Czerny's intentions in the first place, anyway? Even within the parameters of your theory, he clearly had minimal respect for Czerny's suggestion- even if viewed as a double beat. If he didn't respect what Czerny asked for, then all we have is a guy that didn't respect the original marks but instead came up with his own. Not an authority on the meaning of those marks. The logic fails on its own terms.

[@stevenreed5786]

So why didn't the brother's take Czerny's marks seriously? Probably the same reason a lot of others over the last 200 years haven't, they are way too fast for a typical piano player to play at. In single beat. So what was Czerny thinking when he had those numbers published in the first editions? I don't know what he was thinking.

[@AuthenticSound]

No, it just puts the cherry on the cake. But hey, if this is not place in the right context for you, you should be serious this is easily to be played double as fast? kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y6CbXqaGqpt3q9E

[@cziffra1980]

The fact they are fast does not mean we instantly default to double beat theory. There are plenty of other theories. Metronomes were certainly imperfect in those days and Czerny could have been a complete charlatan who wanted to shock with his choices. The fact that they are implausibly fast doesn't leave us with the possibility that everything should be implausibly slow. What the more modern suggestions show is that people used COMMON SENSE, which is far more useful than a literalist and unmusical double beat reading.

[@cziffra1980]

@@stevenreed5786 they didn't apply them as double beat reading though. Wim has made a really flimsy argument that they did so. No, they just applied their own judgment. The upper range of suggestion lies in the no man's land of the middle ground, just the same as virtually all modern interpretations. That doesn't support double beat theory.

[@fogonpr]

@@cziffra1980 My man, did you see the link provided by Wim, If you call that slow then we are in disagreement her right away. And by the way, you can't be stuck only with Czerni (although his mm extremely high) you would have to suppose that all the other composers where also doing a prank, and the exact same one because all of them are in similar range regarding mm. I don't know what you consider common sense but if I see all of the composers at the time writing many mm so fast that not even the pianos (don't go on and say that they where perfectly able to play it on the piano, Wim has them and I'm pretty sure he knows their limitations) can it play it, not to mention modern performers can't play it like lisitsa in a post liszt, Rachmaninoff era, my common sense would tell me that the problem is with the mm and not the performer.

[@MarcoRoepers]

And the Kunkel Brother sold reed organs as well! I;m sorry but I love this too much ignored istrument.

[@Clavichordist]

Very interesting instruments too. My neighbor has one from the 1870's or 1880's. They are interesting to play because you need to pump the organ with your feet while you play the notes with your hands. I tried it and found I had a difficult time coordinating the two. Looking through Charles' Kunkel's Music Review, I saw reed organs from two famous companies. Estey organ and Mason and Hamlin. In North Bennett Vermont is a reed organ museum and they have an extensive collection of Estey organs. Mason and Hamlin went on to build grand pianos and still do today. Their pianos rival those of Steinway even today. After being sold from Aeolian Piano Corp in the early 1990's, M&H was purchased by Premier piano Corp also the owner of Falcone as well, and today their grand pianos are made right in my hometown, about 3 km from my house in the former Falcone factory building. Sadly Falcone became just a name found on cheap Asian made imports made by a non-descript factory in China or Southeast Asia.

[@Renshen1957]

In the Schirmer edition of the WTC BK 1, the foreword (not Czerny's) refers to performance of the Reed (aka Pump, Parlor) Organ with the suggestion to adjust the tempo. I played the C major Fugue on a top of the line version (ornate) with octave couplers, and all the stops out sounded impressive, better than a Nautilus for a work out (and risk for cramps). These were inexpensive in the 1980's, but I had neither room, nor the expendable income to purchase one ($100) with young children.

[@thomashughes4859]

First! Who's got game[play]? HAHA!!! :D

[@susankinney5193]

Omg lol... 😜

[@dougr.2398]

Congrats! (Piglet!....from your dear friend Pooh! ;) )

[@classicgameplay10]

Ok, you beat me again.

[@surgeeo1406]

If I weren't working at Wim's impressively stable update time...

[@thomashughes4859]

@@susankinney5193 LOL

[@banumathi8684]

Mozart is Genius; Liszt is Virtuoso; But Chopin touches the soul of the man

[@thomashughes4859]

1. e4...