Carl Czerny HUMILIATES the Entire Modern Piano Establishment. Tempo Evolution 1839 to 1969.

Even though our top athletes would blast 19th century runners from the track, musicologists keep telling for us poor musicians such comparison would turn out really bad for us. A playing speed of 15 notes a second seemed to be for Czerny's and Beethoven's time absolutely a normal expectation for the average beginner. At least that's the practical conclusions of what the academic establishment insinuates (though they will not make that claim so practically visible to us...for a reason!)
But do the facts support the claims of those who'll get doctoral degrees with it? Let's see.
Last week I shared with you that incredible 1875 Czerny score with double metronome marks, edited and published by Charles Kunkel: • Not Pollini but Charle...
Thanks to Kunkel’s personal metronome marks, we could state as a fact that between 1839, the date of Czerny’s Schüle der Geläufigkeit and 1875, the date of Kunkel’s edition, tempi had gone up with an average of 43%. In this segment we are going to add another fascinating layer to that line of history. We will add the tempi of the opus 299 chosen in 1969 by the famous Czerny performer Vivien Harvey Slater. And by doing so we will have a unique line of tempo evolution starting from Czerny 1839 over Kunkel 1875 and ending in 1969.
Start your tempo journey here: • How Fast did Beethoven...
--
🙋Support the movement we're building and become an insider ▶ / authenticsound
Not sure why you would? Click here: • Join This Movement of ...
--
Relating episodes:
Not Pollini but Charles Kunkel leads to Beethoven Paradise! Double MM's in an 1875 Czerny Score!!
• Not Pollini but Charle...
Even Czerny's direct Students not able to play his Etudes?
• Single Beat Test (Ep. ...
My "Immoral Tempo Allegations" Refuted by Early Recordings. Or not?
• My "Immoral Tempo Alle...
Isidore Philipp and Beethoven's legacy
bit.ly/IsidoreP...
💿 Buy Pachelbel's Hexachordum Apollinis on Vinyl, CD or Flac) here: bit.ly/Pachelbe...
--
📩One weekly mail in your mailbox? 👉bit.ly/as-maili...
--
👩‍🎓 Check out my course on Keyboard Technique: 👉bit.ly/Keyb-Tech
--
📱 Website: ▶www.authenticso...
#TempoEvolution

[@mohawk34]

I've watched a few of your videos now, and I don't understand how this is even something still being debated. Any musician hearing these pieces, should instantly understand the concept that these metronome speeds must have involved two ticks per beat. Even today, frequency and wavelengths are still measured in complete cycles, not half cycles--so it seems to me this historical question really needs no further debate. I had the great fortune to study piano under Vivien Harvey Slater in the 1990s, and I believe she once discussed the speed indications with me, but at the time I had no idea there was any controversy on the issue, so unfortunately, I have forgotten what she thought about this. I never used a metronome myself when playing Czerny...and certainly could never play like my teacher did!

[@joshscores3360]

Wim, I've read that if your tempo theory was true, then Mozart's "Mithridates" would last longer than a Wagner opera. Is that true?

[@AuthenticSound]

I would love to see how you came to this conclusion but that they would become longer, yes that is a fact and on top of that... Wagner somewhere must fit in to the tradition, right? Certainly Beethoven suddenly has lots of 'Wagnerian' aspects in WBMP, the opposite should surprise us.

[@BasileiosDrolias]

Again the point is not whether you can do the 15 notes per second. Its how they sound. And they sound awful. The arguments should start building on the aesthetic side as well.

[@thomashughes4859]

True, Basileios. Too fast works in races and sporting events, but not so much in music.

[@BasileiosDrolias]

@@thomashughes4859 my thinking exactly ( i may not be a musician but I can somehow tell what sounds good, ok or plain awful...)

[@thomashughes4859]

@@BasileiosDrolias ¡Contigo al 100%!

[@maurozanchetta648]

I agree!

[@Clavichordist]

My thinking as well. When played the right way, as my very old piano teacher told me to do so, they can actually be kind of fun and very musical.

[@PianoEtudes]

Mozart to his father, 1783. He(Clementi) writes that the sonata should be played Presto or even Prestissimo and 2/2 - while he performs it Allegro 4/4. Several decades later Clementi published his works with M.M. Thus, everything gets absolutely clear.

[@stevenreed5786]

This was a reply to my previous question in a different post. Thanks. By the way I stopped by your channel and I'm very impressed with your piano abilities.

[@PianoEtudes]

Thank you! By the way, I really made a mistake when added "M.M."after Mozart's words about Clementi. I cited from memory and didn't think about the dates.

[@thomashughes4859]

Great argument, Wim. It makes sense, which is ultimately what is most important. We know speeds increased over the 150 years, and what perpetuates the practise is the fact that they think they're "elite", and were this the case then, Beethoven and others wouldn't have made any money selling music. :D

[@ElSmusso]

Another great video. This is very interesting. I feel re-educated :)

[@charoox]

I've been watching a lot of your videos recently, and I must say all this is quite fascinating ... And concerning Czerny Im definitely convinced. Yet how to know when whole beat tempo marking has changed to single beat as nowadays ? Or at least which composers used double, which used single..? During the XIXth century there must have been conflicts between users of single beat (as today) and whole beat, and therefore there must have been people talking about this issue. This is the key piece of evidence that will make everybody agree I guess. That or a confirmation of this theory by some reknown musician(s). But those go against your theory. For instance I saw that a skeptical person commented in an other video that Bulow chose some tempo slower that what Chopin indicated (in single beat) on a piece and actually documented why he'd made this modification. Why wouldnt guys like Bulow be aware of that double beat/ single beat issue ? Thank you anyway for the great content you're publishing ! You made me buy the Czerny version of the well tempered clavier hahaha!

[@AuthenticSound]

this might interest you: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r6XXd6Oobsp_i7M

[@dDoOyYoOuUtTuUbBeE]

Would love to hear the sound of the oldest metronome known... Are the beat sounds the same on both sides?

[@thomashughes4859]

They have to be, or the machine won't run for long. If you have a mechanical clock, tilt it out of beat so that the pendulum beats are unequal, and the clock will soon stop. If the movt. is newer, it might still run, but it will be certainly noticeable and the wear on the escape wheel will eventually cause the regulation to fail.

[@danielsabados5607]

@@thomashughes4859 The ticks were produced when the rod hit two pieces of wood mounted on either side. Maelzel could have used two different types of woods to make the ticks distuinguishable one from the next. But did he?

[@thomashughes4859]

@@danielsabados5607 I thought "dDoO ..." was speaking of the escapement itself because that is where the tick originates. He and you now may learn about how the Metronome of the day worked, and if you have a "modern" escapement-type Metronome, you'll find the same mechanics employed therein at least in the Seth Thomas. Daniel, it is incorrect that “the ticks were produced when the rod hit two pieces of wood mounted on either side”. Please review “Vintage Metronome with Bell” uploaded by Clockmanticks on KZbin so that you can see the inner workings. Please note at minute 1: 31 that not only is there a recess to allow the bottom weight to clear the sides, but each “tick” happens as the pins (it’s called a pinwheel escapement) hit the pallets the sound is made. I don’t know if you’ve ever known why such a curious shape as an obelisk was used. It was designed to maximise space to allow the ticks of the pins against the pallets to reverberate and magnify the sound as the arbor upon which the pendulum is mounted was at the pivot (where the arbor “axle” meets the plate “or the supporting side”). This is furthermore substantiated by Maelzel’s original patent, which can be found in the footnotes on the Metronome in Wiki. We are told by the inventor exactly how the sound is produced. A) Pg. 7 “…, whereof each vibration is indicated in an audible manner to the performer, by the tick or drop of an escapement …”; B) Pg. 8 “… and this admits of each vibration being marked by the tick or drop of the escapement …”; C) Pg. 9 “… and also different kinds of escapement may be employed, provided they produce a sufficiently audible tick or beat. …”; D) Pg. 11 “… At every time a tooth of the wheel drops against either of the pallets, it makes a blow which can be plainly heard …” and do not misinterpret the following: “… but to render it more audible and distinct, the end pivot of the axis of the pendulum projects through beyond the cock which supports it, and is made to bear against a piece of metal plate or wood, or other similar substance, which then receives the blow and makes a sufficient sound, when the machine is enclosed in the pyramid …” The ticks are not distinguishable for the reasons you stated. NB: They might be of a slight difference (barely audible to the untrained ear) with each “tick” (pin dropping on to the entry pallet), and “tock” (pin dropping on to the exit pallet) because of differences in distances of the drop of the escapement itself.

[@dDoOyYoOuUtTuUbBeE]

@@thomashughes4859 You always can muffle one of the pallets... Or the case may output the sound a certain way. Just curious...

[@thomashughes4859]

@@dDoOyYoOuUtTuUbBeE Good question. If the pallets were muffled, it would impact the function. Since pendulum-regulated clocks haven't been around for about 60 years now unless great-gramma had one, I'd sya take a look at how they work. Or better, lots of folks like Law ans Clayton have wooden clocks out on the the internet sl that you can see how they work. As the patent states, the tick and the tock are audible and equal in resonance. Even today, the way to "muffle" one of the ticks is the set the Metronome to half of the speed it was, so set a 108 to a 56. Thanks for asking!

[@edelcorrallira]

The high tempos sounds a bit like a Mandolin. It does not sound necessarily bad, though it does sound out of character for a harmonic instrument like putting all the menu in a bucket. I believe Kryptonian pianists are not my cup of tea. However if they can also hover in ther flipping their pianos while playing those ridiculous tempi, they might be an interesting circuss act Great video Wim

[@alessandrorosborough7261]

I’m a little bit curious about who these mainstream musicologists are that suggest that tempi have slowed down. My research has lately been centered around Bach and most my research has led me to believe that tempi in general have become exaggerated (i.e. fast movements are played too fast, and slow movements are played too slow). What are your thoughts?

[@Renshen1957]

I have studied J S Bach's music, the scores, and listened to recordings for the better part of 50 years. Allemandes played Allegro, Sarabandes played played quickly, Minuets played slower. And without consistency. Back in the 1970's Alfred Palmer (an unusual combination of musicologist and accordion virtuoso advocate) in the Alfred Music Edition, in his editions for the Italian Concerto and his Well Tempered Clavier, Book 1 (he did live to complete book two) one finds a survey of various artists recordings in the Italian Concerto available at that time. The first movement of the Italian movement has no Tempo indication, it's understood that its Allegro. From his survey the first movement varied from 108 to 126 for the 1/4. A current reference source (Symphony Nova Scotia) lists Allegro as Allegro - fast, quickly and bright (109-132 BPM). The second movement andante varied from 1/8= 54 to 90. Andante - at a walking pace (73-77 BPM) (Symphony Nova Scotia), the Andante is now the average of the two extremes. The presto of the third movement, varied between 1/2 note=126 to 152. Presto - extremely fast (168-177 BPM) (Symphony Nova Scotia), in this case the Presto has accelerated beyond the fastest recording. Back in my student days, I guess One pianist's Allegro was another pianist's Presto, but today both are too Slow by Nova Scotia Standards. However, somethings have changed since the time of J S Bach. Adagio, not Largo was the slowest Tempo back in that day. Tempo Ordinario remained a constant from from it's earliest mention, through to Quantz, and even later with Kirnberger, although Quantz mentioned his contemporary speed as faster than the generation before, but J S Bach was known for a livelier tempo, or a faster than average tempo. His usage of Tempo ordinario, in the WTC BK is almost univerals, except the b minor prelude's andante and fugue's largo, are the only Tempo indications given at the beginning of a composition (although Adagio, Presto Allegro are found in the C minor Prelude, Adagio in J S Bach's hand in one manuscript midway in the Bb major prelude, plus the Presto in towards the end of the e minor prelude) And here Alfred Palmer supplies tempi suggest from different editions editions of commentaries, the recordings of pianists and harpsichordists. However, I will have to type these out at a later date.

[@joanesperito3514]

The tempi started to slow down during the romanticism period. This movement was led by Wagner , Richards Strauss was equally adhering to Wagner approach . Wagner felt that Beethoven was too fast and conducted most of Beethoven symphonies , it was followed by a lot of conductors. Hopefully , this movement disappeared progressively as people were looking for authenticity . It is extraordinary to see that an opposite movement ( back to fast as opposed to back to slow) took place 100 years ago, It is also worthwhile mentioning that Wagner's view was not driven by the way to use the metronome but by personal taste.

[@MrGeencie]

Mr.Wim pls read "The Great Controversy" by Ellen G White! I'm sure you will find it fascinating.

[@PianoEtudes]

This theory is nice but absolutely WRONG. Not to mention that this theory is not accepted by any great concert pianist. You won't be able to explain me the similar situation with the later composers whose markings are also too fast, unplayable. Isidor Philipp (1863 - 1958) put M.M. in his exercises that are really TOO FAST. But he's almost our contemporary By the way, Saint-Saens put extremely fast metronome indications in his pieces, and we have several recordings, where he, an old man, plays that fast. He just slows down where it becomes too difficult. I ADMIT that early(!) Czerny's indications are not correct, since in his later opuses he puts normal tempos, but it happened for some other reason, and definitely they are not to be played TWICE slower. Other way, how can you explain that his contemporaries indicated slower, normal, tempos for the same kinds of technique? Clementi op. 44 n. 16 half note=80 (1817 year), Czerny, similar, op.299 n.9 half note = 108 (1833 year). The same situation occurs with each etude. I heard that some composers didn't put the correct indications because they used the lower edge of the movable indicator instead of the upper one. Even this half-anecdotal thought looks more plausible. As, for example, the upper edge of indicator at my metronome shows 80, when the lower - 100-104

[@PianoEtudes]

By the way, Mozart writes in his letters that Clementi often played his works slower that he'd indicated himself by M.M. Also he tells us that Clementi often slows down in difficult places. How would this happen if this theory was correct?

[@AuthenticSound]

Isidor Philipp's MM's are challenging but perfect, at least for those who want to understand them: kzbin.info/aero/PLackZ_5a6IWWxHJiI6R-i5PWKd-edtdhQ

[@stevenreed5786]

@@PianoEtudes How did Mozart know about Maelzel's Metronome (M.M.) when he died in 1791 and Maelzel got the patent in England in 1815 (per Wikipedia)?

[@PianoEtudes]

I bet that you may perform every Czerny's étude easily at any tempo if you're able to play Chopin-Philipp op.10n.2 in octaves and chords at quarter note = 116. It's just the first example that appeared in my memory.

[@PianoEtudes]

Oh my God! You're going to tell me that Philipp also should be played twice slower?? Well, Rachmaninoff es-moll prelude is too difficult to be performed at quarter note 152. I have heard no recording at this tempo. I guess this tempo should also be understood another way...

[@kaybrown4010]

A masterful explanation. Thank you!

[@indoormusic]

The modern piano establishment is rigid and cracking.

[@StefanWyattMusic]

I love your videos so much. I feel like there is a music elite maffia that doesn't want these evidences to come into light an be accepted. I'm not convinced that halving the speeds for all composers from that time would work but for Czerny there is no doubt.

[@AuthenticSound]

Thanks Stefan and keep in mind it is not halving speed, since we very rarely hear single beat performances!

[@magisterdixit1591]

It's incredible how you are ba at explaining simpler! Please, just put, befeore and after an original recording: 1st audio: "this is by single beat" (then play the audio adjusted to the single-beat spead) 2nd audio: "this is how Mr. Musician plays it" (then play the Musician's original recording) 3rd audio: "this is how doubble beat" (then play the audio adjusting to the doubble-beat speed) Only that, ok!!!!!!! JUST that!!!! Do it 15 times, in 15 different "demonstration" videos. Each one: 1st audio, 2nd audio, and 3rd audio. You have a too important message to mess it up with your badsplanation! Demonstrate. Only! Good luck. Nice job! Remember: [1st : sb, 2nd orig. exampl., 3rd.: db] just that! ;-))

[@watchmakerful]

Try Opus 365, No. 18...

[@ElSmusso]

13:23 only Mozart could do that. That boy must have been made of kryptonite ;-)

[@jamiewhite6798]

I would like a Kryptonian piano

[@maurozanchetta648]

A Kriptonian piano!!! :D :D :D

[@thomashughes4859]

FIRST! Oh yeah, he's back!!! :D

[@thomashughes4859]

@Bage87 Thanks! It's all in the wrist. :D

[@thomashughes4859]

@@jonathanp935 I coudn't have done it without you, Jonathan! How're you doin', man? Good to see you. :D