BREAKING: Beethoven's Metronome Manual Discovered!!! Prepare for a Major Musical Impact in 2020!

How did Beethoven use his Metronome? As we do today? Or different? Finally we know! In this unique document L.van Beethoven reveals exactly how he wants us to use the metronome. With this a century old 'mystery' comes to an end... And yes, it's going to impact our understanding of our musical past drastically.
This video most probably is the first official publication of this unbelievable piece of information. Watch it and be prepared for a major musical impact. Totally for the better, I promise.
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#BeethovenTempo #BrokenMetronome #WBMP

[@ajestiandan6218]

Whether you are a skeptic or not, ‘this’ empirical evidence is difficult to dispute. I was already convinced by logical implications, and other written historical evidence (provided by Wim and other contributors). But this has raised me to ‘activist’ level (lol). Well, ‘musical establishment’, the bouncing ball is in your court. (Btw, count only when the ball hits the ground ;-)

[@MegaMech]

@@littlefishbigmountain Well... If you actually watch Wims videos, he provides a lot of evidence and discussion. I do not always agree with his interpretations, but he does provide counterarguments when people challenge his ideas.

[@jsandefreitas1]

The time indicated by him, 72, is perfect to sing in chorus at the table after a few beers ...

[@gilgermesch]

Misleading title is misleading. This is not a "manual", nor is it clearly proving your hypothesis. "'Ta, ta, ta, ta' are the pendulum strokes of the metronome""does not mean the same as "'ta, ta, ta, ta' correspond to the strokes of the metronome set to the indicated tempo". It means "'Ta, ta, ta, ta' evoke the sound of *a* metronome". As others have pointed out, the syllable "ta" occurs on different note values throughout the piece, so it can't correspond to the metronome, as this would require the metronome to change speeds in the middle of the music.

[@AuthenticSound]

Title is absolutely spot on, it is the summary summorum of the story here. And no, the pendulum strokes are the ticks, Pendelschläge (plural) in German. Facts are facts (but that's hard to stick to for many in music world :-))

[@martonpeterborsanyi141]

Hello all! Just would like to point to an article written by Schindler for the music journal Niederrheinische Musik-Zeitung 1854 December Issue in which he writes about Beethoven and also in particular about this canon. He says 4-5 times in the article that the MM indicates quavers. Not one mention of semiquavers. He says it is a humorous song, explains how and when it was written, how the Allegretto evolved from it. But he says it is a song, quavers are shown in the MM. Period. (And as any song to be sung, it has a text set to it. The song just happens to carry the text on the semiquavers for the most parte.) It is by no means a proof to metronome use - if you read the article to the end you will even read about very fast tempi that were preferred in certain places more than in others - and by absolutely no means a manual to Beethoven's use of the metronome. With due respect. Best

[@jakegearhart]

The "ta" appearing on different note values is the joke! It's a joke about a faulty metronome. What else could the joke be? The metronome is supposed to keep everyone the correct beat but when you sing it as a cannon, it confuses everyone because the metronome isn't stable.

[@jakegearhart]

@@martonpeterborsanyi141 The metronome mark indicates quavers because that's what the metronome mark indicates. Whether that means a full swing of the metronome or a half swing is a different story. That is no proof of anything.

[@modestoney1577]

You are absolutely correct. Judging by the comments following yours, a lot of people obviously have a problem understanding language.

[@martonpeterborsanyi141]

Hi All, This video really keeps me thinking. Let us take Wim by word, metronome markings are for subdivisions. Fine. A quaver relative to time signature 2/4 is already a subdivision. So there is no reason to further subdivide a subdivision, is there? Secondly: this is a song with a text which was intended to be a joke. Any song to be sung will have to have a text if itnis to be sung and here it happens to be the semiquavers carrying most part of it. This is by itself no reference to double or single beat. Another somewhat subjective problem I see: if we listen to the available recordings, which there are so many, let us take Reinecke playing Mozart for example, his choice of tempo is very close to our choice of tempo. He might have heard musicians that still heard Mozart play. When could the change happen then? But my point is rather this: all the recordings show a great deal of varied, organic rubato. You can hear many ways, modifying the basic pace or leaving the basic pace intact and playing subdivisions freely. If you have a metronome beat the subdivisions, you will never be able to learn, develop and play the subdivisions as freely as all these famous, old but recorded pianists did. Also a remark from me that whenever Wim plays, nothing of this rubato is realised which seems to me so essential to this music (mind you Türk has a whole school on how and when to modify the tempo). I again would love to quote the great Malcolm Bilson on this, who gave in one of his lectures a really good quote by Beethoven himself saying: tempo is flexible and passion has its own pulse, that can not be expressed by 100 on Maelzel’s device. And lastly: music will never be black and white and never be an exact science, since its nature is not scientific, but emotional. Whoever claims to know something in music in a scientific, absolutistic way, watch out with them! (And also if the title and the style of presenting is like a commercial for cosmetics! This product will change your life, you will look 72 years younger after just 3 treatments.) All the best to all of you

[@robbydyer4500]

Good points, but I must point out that there is still method in the madness of the world of emotion. 🙂

[@happypiano4810]

Here’s a question. What were the numbers for then? It seems more likely that setting a metronome to, say, 72, would set it to 72 beats per minute, rather than 72 beats per 2 minutes.

[@franzmauelshagen7166]

Seriously? - If you look at the "ta, ta, ta.." underneath the notes in the printed scoresheet in Schindler's book, there is a "ta" under each note, also the ones faster than the semiquavers. So the "ta" in the sheet music clearly doesn't relate to the metronome marking at all.

[@martonpeterborsanyi141]

Dear All, I was just given the Niederrheinische Musik-Zeitung 1854 December by a really good musicologist, in which the first article is exactly the explanation of this canon by A. Schindler. From his own hand written about the approach to tempi of Beethoven's music with a special emphasis on the Allegretto movement of the 8th symphony. Now, he mentiones at least 4-5 times that the metronome marks the quavers and also gives contemporaries of his who set the metronome for this movement to mark the quavers (never a mention of semiquavers) and a canon is to be understood as a humorous song (that happens to carry the text on semiquavers - my remark). But by no means does it say it represents any use of the metronome. It is a song to be sung at a speed between 69-88. Schindler even says Mendelssohn conducted the movement even faster and that who grew up with the German performance tradition is very likely to be used to faster tempi. Find the article and then make up your own minds. Best

[@sofiadahlen1187]

For me the whole thing falls apart as soon as you try to actually sing the canon. I just tried singing it with some friends and we all have a really hard time finding the "allegretto" in that tempo. It's surely a tempo. But it's not a Cheerful one. Take it in single beat and becomes much more cheerfull without being fast. It also brings the text much more to how one would say the words. Singing the "Liebe" in whole beat makes it sound more like I'm singing in slow motion compared to single beat where it more matches the speed one would say the word (but still slower than one would say it mind you).

[@AdrianGagiu-composer]

The British conductor Sir George Smart has notated the duration of Beethoven's symphonies and of compositions by others as they were played in London in his time. Smart met Beethoven in person and the latter exemplified to him on the fortepiano the tempos of his symphonies. There is no implication from Smart's notations that the respective compositions have been played slower than the usual understanding of tempo and metronome, but rather on the faster side (complying to Beethoven's "impossibly fast" tempos). This is a condensed re-post here, because the previous version was not allowed to appear.

[@AA-le9ls]

Are you sure that this guy Smart met Beethoven? If a person claims to have met president Kennedy, what really happened could be that he once saw him from a far distance while he was standing in a large crowd.

[@renze1966]

@@AA-le9ls A reviewer noted that the lenght of the symphony in 1825 was 80 minutes. The reviewer in The Quarterly Musical Magazine & Review wrote: "...[I]ts length alone will be a never-failing cause of complaint... as it takes up exactly one hour and twenty minutes... which is not compensated by any beauty of unity of design, taking the composition as a whole.... The fourth and last movement... is one of the most extraordinary instances I have ever witnessed, of great powers of mind and wonderful science, wasted upon subjects infinitely beneath its strength. But... parts of this movement... are really beautiful... - but even here, while we are enjoying the delights of so much science and melody... we are snatched away from such eloquent music, to rude, wild and extraneous harmonies.... I must consider this new symphony as the least excellent of any Beethoven has produced, as an unequal work, abounding more in noise, eccentricity, and confusion of design, than in those grand and lofty touches he so well knows how to make us feel.

[@AA-le9ls]

@@renze1966 Interesting review, but it doesn't seem to prove that the guy Smart ever met Beethoven. (By the way, if an orchestra back then played the 9th symphony in 80 minutes, the conductor took 21st century tempos, which do not correspond at all to Beethoven's metronome indications no matter how you interprete these.)

[@AdrianGagiu-composer]

@@AA-le9ls Yes, it's documented in his diary and there were witnesses to the meeting who were close associates to Beethoven (Holz, Ries, B.'s nephew) and who would have reacted if Smart made things up. Anyway, Smart's notations about the duration of B.'s symphonies bears witness on contemporary performing practice.

[@AdrianGagiu-composer]

@@renze1966 Strange. Smart gives 64 minutes for the Ninth in the 1825 concerto. Anyway, neither 80 minutes would imply halved tempos.

[@AA-le9ls]

In a recording released on "Authentic sound" in january 2020 the young Italian pianist Alberto Sanna plays the Waldstein sonata in double beat tempos. He must of course have been taught to play it that way by his piano teacher at the prestigious Colburn school of music, where he studied until the summer of 2019. It is impossible that he would have played the piece completely differently in december 2019 from how he was taught to play it by his Colburn teacher only one year or so earlier. Another thing that is impossible is that Raoul Koczalski would have played some pieces slightly differently in 1925 from how his teacher Karol Mikuli was taught to play them by Frédéric Chopin in 1840. Since Koczalski plays quite fast in a preserved recording from 1925, we know with certainty that Chopin taught his pupils to play in single beat tempos and that the claim that he was a double beater is false.

[@AuthenticSound]

I love this kind of irony, it puts these early recordings indeed in a context!

[@matthiasm4299]

One could argue that this piece is meant to evoke the sound of a metronome, rather than literally representing the metronome marking of the piece. Schindler's writing - rather than be taken completely literally - also makes more sense this way as there are 32nd notes representing 'ta' as well. So I don't think this piece of evidence is quite as compelling as you make it out to be.

[@fynnjamin]

agreed.

[@DanieleZandara]

I definitely agree with you as well.

[@AuthenticSound]

Of course the piece, both canon and symphony are meant to evoke the sound of the metronome... what else? And sound of the metronome = ticks, right? And so the 16th notes represent the ticks, which makes the MM only possible in Whole beat. period.

[@DanieleZandara]

@@AuthenticSound the words of the canon are meant to evoke the sound of the metronome. It's written in the book. We can't say the same thing for the symphony, unless I missed where Beethoven say that. The canon and the symphony are different works.

[@johanncaron5108]

I was wondering if you had any look at opera or ballet metronome mark at that time. As those who be also tighly bound to physical performance of dancers and singers. Do we have any metronome mark for Fidelio ? would it make any sense in WBMP ? What is the tempo use in today representation ? Could be an interesting topic for a next video :)

[@b9court]

Wagner extolled Beethoven's 7th Symphony as "the Apotheosis of the dance."

[@lemonemmi]

Always great to see more evidence pointing to the self evident! Thank you for the video! Most interesting!

[@dr.stephencook2667]

This argument might be more compelling if the Tas appeared only on the 16th notes but even in that case it would be a stretch because Beethoven was an artist and not a mechanic. The assumption that Beethoven wanted to reference the specific subdivision of the beat is flawed by the fact that the Tas appear on 16ths and 32 notes (and also by the fact that he sets the metronome to the 8th note). That removes the likelihood that there is a literal connection between the Tas and the mechanical subdivision of the beat. It is more likely that Schindler speaks of the interpretive intent of the Tas. They likely represent the sound of the metronome clicks and that is all. Just like the repeated B-flats in Ravel's Le gibet should sound like tolling bells, Beethoven's Tas should sound like the metronome and should be played that way. Just an interesting expressive device and nothing more.

[@martonpeterborsanyi141]

Hi When I was browsing through the comments I found yours too and I thought I try to send you my answer to Wim. He has already "muted" my main account and perhaps he will mute my secondary account too. Dear All, I was just given the Niederrheinische Musik-Zeitung 1854 December by a really good musicologist, in which the first article is exactly the explanation of this canon by A. Schindler. From his own hand written about the approach to tempi of Beethoven's music with a special emphasis on the Allegretto movement of the 8th symphony. Now, he mentiones at least 4-5 times that the metronome marks the quavers and also gives contemporaries of his who set the metronome for this movement to mark the quavers (never a mention of semiquavers) and a canon is to be understood as a humorous song (that happens to carry the text on semiquavers - my remark). But by no means does it say it represents any use of the metronome. It is a song to be sung at a speed between 69-88. Schindler even says Mendelssohn conducted the movement even faster and that who grew up with the German performance tradition is very likely to be used to faster tempi. Find the article and then make up your own minds. Best

[@jassskmaster7575]

Came as soon as I heard the bell... this is exciting!!

[@Phi1618033]

Interesting theory. Except for one small problem. 72 or even 88 beats per minute is not "humorous" sounding. It's not even interesting sounding. In fact, it is coma inducing. If Beethoven was trying to put his listeners to sleep, then it would make sense that he marked the tempo this way. But my guess is that one of the reasons Beethoven was so fun to listen to was because we was not intentionally trying to put the listeners to sleep. The much more likely explanation is that the piece is only trying to imitate the sound of a metronome when it's set to a high bpm (which does, indeed, sound exciting). But Beethoven notated the actual music in cut time in order to make it easier to read and conduct.

[@AuthenticSound]

you will be rolling over the floor with our recording soon. Prepare for it!

[@AdrianGagiu-composer]

Haydn's Symphony No. "101", nicknamed The Clock, has a duration of c. 28 min. according to Robbins Landon and e. g. the HIP reading by Frans Brüggen and his Orchestra of the 18th Century (with the music breathing wonderfully). The Andante movement (150 measures plus repeats) is c. 8 min. long and its eighth notes are faster than seconds, but they are mimicking THE SOUND of the clock (as Beethoven's Allegretto in his 8th Symphony is thought by many to mimic THE SOUND of the metronome, though some consider doubtful this idea). Was Haydn's clock faster than ours? Of course not. Music is suggestion and feeling, not mechanics.

[@florisheijdra6086]

This is like, how deep does the rabbit hole go? All this research you did, magnificent.

[@AuthenticSound]

Well, it changes a lot indeed, thank you for watching!

[@amu7831]

Dear Wim, thank you for investigating in such an interestin topic. I am watching your channel for a while and I always get back to it. I am not a 'double-beater' but also not a 'single-beater'. Some recordings convince me, some not. This canon and its description can be read as a proof for WBMP if one wants to. But it does not convince me. It is a musical joke and Beeethoven probably wants his lyrics ('ta-ta-ta..') to sound like a metronome or to remind one of it. And it might as well be doubted that Schindler wants to give an instruction how to use a metronome. He just says that the 'ta's 'are' the ticks. I understand that in the meening of: 'stand for', but not in a technical meaning. As if he had written: '...are the strikes of a woodpecker..' (Just as an example.) The tempo is cited at the top of the canon. And that still could be read in single-beat way. Which tempo seems to be more adequate is another discussion...

[@davidgonzalez-herrera2980]

Thank you for your wisdom Wim

[@gabithemagyar]

WIth all due respect, I am confused. When I look at the score in question (e.g. at 8:15) the "ta"-s correspond to 16th notes at the beginning but then they also correspond to both 16th and 32nd notes after that and, at the end, to a dotted eighth note plus a 16th (time value of 2 eighth notes). This doesn't seem to jive with Schindler's note that the Ta-s represent the ticks of the metronome since it gives 3 different durations per tick within a single line of music !! . Based on this, I don't think it shows anything beyond random "Ta"s, possibly meant to be articulated as part of the "words" of the canon. What am I missing here ?

[@MegaMech]

They likely only refer to the beginning

[@AuthenticSound]

Let me copy the reply to Rosa: It absolutely proves everything. Obviously Beethoven (or Schindler) did want to give a little bit of variation in rhythm, but even if you would say that we don't know if Schindler wasn't talking on the 32d notes (which would be a weird statement to accept but anyway), even then the 16th notes end up being the longest note value to have the ticks attached to; There are no 8th notes... and thereby the single beat story completely ends. I guess no one is in for a 'double-whole beat' theory since that is what the 32d notes would lead us to.

[@gabithemagyar]

@@MegaMech what makes you think that ? The ta-s either represent the metronome marks throughout or they don't. The ta-s very evidently do not represent 1 tick per 16th.

[@gabithemagyar]

@@AuthenticSound there is, in fact, a dotted eighth at the end of the line. This dotted eighth plus the following 16th together only get one 'Ta". If the ta is to represent a 16th the dotted eighth should have gotten 3 ta-s. The fact that there is only one suggests the dotted eighth and the attached 16th are to be sung slurred. Anyway, the ta-s are inconsistent in terms of duration so there is room for doubt.

[@niklas_klaavo]

@@gabithemagyar there is marked 2/4 and 2 bars and 16 'ta' 's. If those 'ta' 's were 8th notes, there would be only 8 'ta' 's.

[@MarcusAgricola]

I immediately took the time to take a recording of the 8th and turn the 2nd movement down to the Tempo.... and it feels just perfect! It bears much more humor. I still wonder if the singers would kill me if I tried the 9th like it... but one day I want to try it! Thank you Wim, for bringing this to our attention!

[@pawncube2050]

I think I missed the point. So the fact that that whoever wrote the cannon marked the tempo with eigth notes and uses some 16th notes means that double beat is proved? I honestly don't see the connection, would those 32th notes prove quadruple beat(sorry for my english if I got it wrong), would those dotted quarter notes prove single and a half beat? And the quarter notes prove half beat theory? And the quarter note tied to a 8th note prove the three quarters theory? I honestly don't get the point here. Also where can I see that page with the score? I tried archive.org but it has only a few pages, not this one

To those who mention the 32nd notes, please consider this: The 16th note is the longest note that is marked with a lyric "ta" corresponding to a metronome tick (not counting one dotted 16th note), yet the tempo is notated with an 8th note, which means that there are, at minimum, two ticks per 8th note (1/16 + 1/16 = 1/8). A 32nd note is even shorter, so if you take it as a metronome tick, then there would have to be four ticks per 8th note, which means it would be *even slower* (not faster). So in any case, the tempo cannot be any faster than one tick = one 16th note. This is absolutely the fastest tempo that can be deduced from that metronome mark and those lyrics. The possibility that it is even slower than that, that is one tick = one 32nd note is absurd, and can be ruled out on the ground that the 32nd notes are just a rhythmic variation, and the true ticking of metronome is one tick = one 16th note. That is what the whole whole-beat metronome theory is all about. Instead of counting one tick per note notated in the metronome mark, you count two, like you would with your hand. When you have down-up-down-up, you don't go 1-2-3-4, but 1-and-2-and-(3-and-4-and...). The result is that the actual tempo is twice as slow as it would be notated in the modern metronome notation.

[@aycc-nbh7289]

But the 32nd notes in general would mean the tempo would need to change in order for this to be true.

[@raulflyeryt9856]

Thank you for these videos! I really like them. I have a question: How can we play the works of a composer using the whole beat tempi? Do we play them half speed only? And another question: Word such as allegro, adagio, andante... have their own metronome numbers. 120, 60, 70. But these numbers represent whole beat or single beat? I would like to know that so I could read Allegro and play quarter note to 120, but playing its subdivisions if I understood this video. Thank you and have a nice day. God bless you.

[@granttherock9121]

Ah yes, because of course Quarter note = x really means that Quarter note/2 = x.

[@Gustavofeanor]

Well done Wim!

[@RosssRoyce]

I clearly remember commenting on your vid a few months ago that the metronome number probably marks hand up and hand down on a hand tapping the beat 😀, thus needing to divide the number.

[@KamilTokarski]

Fascinating!

[@marcomonahan]

@AuthenticSound with which composer can we begin to say the consensus is 1 tick = 1 beat?

[@AuthenticSound]

A bit of an older video but partly a response to reflect, it's a very gradual thing until the period of wwi it seems kzbin.info/www/bejne/r6XXd6Oobsp_i7M

[@flaviocruciani8563]

sorry, my english is not perfect and i am learning music reading. did you say that 72 M.M. = 8th means set the metronome at 72 and every click is a 16th to be played or sing instead? did i get it right ? thanks

[@AuthenticSound]

Exactly

[@flaviocruciani8563]

@@AuthenticSound ok thanks a lot, so the very well known m.m. 88 in the 8th symphony is not so fast i think😄 thanks

[@martinbennett2228]

I think I am missing something. If I set a metronome at 72 that corresponds to one semiquaver (1/16 note) according to double beat - is that right. In this case it is possible but definitely slow. Single beat would be to set the metronome at 144, certainly quick, but also possible. What am I missing? What is it that makes the 72 value for a semiquaver the only way this can be understood?

[@Renshen1957]

Check out Wim's previous videos, the Metronome is set to a specific speed, here' 1/8, and the subdivision in (1/16) is played as the up and down movement of a baton represent the beat (as in One and ( the sixteenth notes for each word), Two and). An early Metronome documents spells this out.

[@martinbennett2228]

@@Renshen1957 You can see from my question that I understand this, but I cannot see how this example can only be interpreted as a double beat or tick of the metronome - there must be something that I have missed.

[@Renshen1957]

@@martinbennett2228 If you haven't seen this video, it's well worth the investment of time.

[@Renshen1957]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/baXMq4qte86UgcU

[@sebastianluna1984]

I really enjoyed this video, as always. I strongly suggest a video on Alkan's Chemin de Fer and how its M.M indication matches almost exactly the early steam locomotives' speed and rhythm. A fact beyond speculation

[@fogonpr]

@@joefalchetto94 If you can speak Spanish you would also have an almost exact translation and feeling of the word. Translated it only means "in a very alive way".

[@Renshen1957]

@@joefalchetto94 The average passenger train in the UK and the Continent went no slower than 12 mph (19 kph) and usually traveled at as speed no faster than 20 miles per hour (32 kph).

[@Renshen1957]

@@fogonpr Vivement in French translates as "deeply (felt)" in context of the 18th and 19th century, although many individuals think that Vive (alive) is the same as Vite (fast) and play Vive and Vivement as Fast Tempi.

[@fogonpr]

@@Renshen1957 But it doesn't say vite does it, or I'm I wrong?

[@Renshen1957]

@@fogonpr Rhetorical question, or did you miss my point? "Vivacissimamente" is supposed to be faster than than Vivace. But how fast is Vivace? 1/4=100, vs. pretso 120 in the middle part of the 18th century. The typical metrical speed (based on pulse) is 60 beats 1/4 common time for Allegro for J S Bach's generation, or Quantz had 80 beats, but contemporaries of Bach, refer to him taking his pieces at a faster clip, (65?, 70?, or 80?=1/4). Czerny references this slower allegro in his 1830's edition of the Well Tempered Clavier by J S Bach, and wouldn't you know it his indications for the two part Inventions in Common time, for Allegro (without without and suffix modifying term) run about twice the 61-80=1/4 range (133=1/4, ect.) You can see said in tempi/MM in IMSLP edition of the Two Part inventions. This would suggest that Czerny, the most noted student of Beethoven counted in Whole Beat (double best). That's not to say that Czerny used that indication for Vivacissimamente for contemporary works in which Vivace is faster.

[@josephlecher6814]

Have you had the chance to read the Roger Norrington interview in the February edition of BBC Music with regards to Beethoven and the tempo choices he made with the London Classical Players in the 1980’s? I now read these articles cautiously since my education from you. Thank you for your work and research!

[@john221b6]

'ta, ta, ta, ta' are the strokes of the metronome; 2/4 measure; there's four 'ta', hence: four strikes per measure; how is that different from modern practice? And even with that, people don't follow scientific rules when setting a text to music.

[@AuthenticSound]

That's a 100% different

[@john221b6]

@@AuthenticSound 4 strokes per measure is exactly the opposite of what you say. You suggest 8 strokes per measure.

[@charlesmartel7502]

Very good!

[@jakegearhart]

The "ta" appearing on different note values is the joke! It's a joke about a faulty metronome. What else could the joke be? The metronome is supposed to keep everyone the correct beat but when you sing it as a cannon, it confuses everyone because the metronome isn't stable.

[@zeerust2000]

If each metronome tick is meant to be a semiquaver, why does the metronome indication specify a quaver? Is this a typographical error? Please explain this.

[@AuthenticSound]

you'll find at least 40 videos on this channel explaining exactly that. Don't think knowledge comes knock on your door. you in fact must be willing to do a minimum of work. In this case: at least clicking on a free video for you to become a tiny but smartee

[@zeerust2000]

@@AuthenticSound Your reply amounts to saying "Do your own research". If you are proposing a very unusual theory which is supported by almost no-one else in the field, as you are doing, you have to be prepared to defend it. If you are not prepared to do this, I won't trouble you any further.

[@RicardoMarlowFlamenco]

Ta ta = 16ths AND 32nds!!! So what the heck kind of metronome did those guys use?? Dr. Beat??😂😂

[@ivanbenedetti3597]

True, electricity was still not invented at that times. But... Horses already was able to run fast. Taratá, taratá, you know? Also birds sang at the same speed as today. And human heartbeat... I believe if a man was scared, also in 1800 his heart rushed. So, composers had infinite source of inspiration to imagine a fast tempo...

[@benjamingoldstein1861]

Just a generic comment: Mr. Winters, there's a reddit page, "Refutation of Double beat theory" (or something like that) where there's a screen shot of you mentioning an article that you wrote for Early Music, Oxford I'll assume. Can you tell us more about this article? The existence of this would seem to bolster your research, and I for one, would be very interested in reading it. Thanks for any information. Cordially- Benjamin

[@AuthenticSound]

It's not published in Oxford Early Music, but in the National Early Music Association (UK)

[@benjamingoldstein1861]

@@AuthenticSound Thanks Mr Winters. Not sure how/why the author of that page said Early Music.

[@SinanAkkoyun]

But when did whole beat get common? Whem did the page turn?

[@juliannewman2ndchannelmusi475]

Nicely made video, and nice quote :) Is it not possible that the "ta ta ta" words simply represent humorously the tickings of a metronome set to approximately 144 (which [at least to a modern ear!] would be quite in keeping with the idea of a piece of humour with an "allegretto vibe"), and that Schindler was not at all trying to equate this with what one hears from the metronome when setting the metronome to 72, in accordance with his tempo instruction, to learn the tempo of the quavers?

[@Sharlice87]

Dear Wim, i would really love to hear an authentic-tempo-recording of the third movement of the moonlight sonata (beethoven) on your channel, since this is the peace that i am playing at the moment.

[@AuthenticSound]

coming soon, stay tuned!

[@Sharlice87]

Oh, wow - thanks!!

[@Ludwig1625]

@@AuthenticSound I would just like to say that Mozart's rondo alla turca you played was eye opening

[@alfredfaust9614]

Wim mentioned that he was referring to the third edition of Schindler Biography (1860). I have found out that this is also printed in the fourth edition of the Beethoven Biography (1871) in exactly the same way, on exactly the same number of pages and in exactly the same form. I mean, if this in third Edition would be false or faulty, he would have had corrected it surely 10 years later in the fourth Edition. In the article in the "Niederrheinische Musikzeitung" No. 49 of 1854 that Schindler mentions in the footnote, the sentence is missing: "Ta, ta, ta, are the pendulum strokes of metronomes". I think, he had added this sentence in the Beethoven-biographie, to eliminate any ambiguity about how to read or understand metronome numbers.

[@richardwieland5865]

I listen to Chopins Ballade no 2 a lot right now, because I'm trying to learn it. I like Zimmerman's version a lot, but I am less fond of Lang Lang, for example, who plays the calm sections with great emotion, but where Presto furioso leaves me unmoved. However, the best is Pogorelich's competition contribution in 1980. Zimmerman manages to fill Presto furioso with a lot of emotion despite a high tempo, but in Pogorelich's considerably slower version, so many more details appear in the music and the bass line becomes much more articulate. Most concert pianists play The ballade in about six and a half minutes. Pogorelich's version is almost nine minutes long.

[@gamingmusicandjokesandabit1240]

Plot twist: 1:04 Music continues as that Beethoven's 9th, as if from a VHS (because of 1:13)

[@andreasvandieaarde]

Well...if this is about playing at the right tempo, I say play at whatever tempo you want. I've listened to your performance of his C major sonata - not the whole thing, granted - but I could hear it sounds incredibly different to modern interpreters because they're playing thrice the speed or what have you...I think it sounds good either way! Fast, relatively slow...it brings out different qualities in the music! I think it's all fantastic

[@MrGeencie]

Wow, this makes it so clear! Thank youu!

[@kenturner9034]

Wim Winters, we would like to see you discuss this with Andras Schiff.

[@AuthenticSound]

Open for the idea on the condition that such conversation would aim openly at truth finding, not necessarily to agree, but to come closer.

[@kenturner9034]

Paul Morris Well said. It’s manipulative twaddle with the objective of user engagement, likes and follows, not about truth. When will people learn that they are being played for fools and ad revenue?

[@surgeeo1406]

@@kenturner9034 I'm paying for the music I'm getting. Together with over a hundred of others. Even if it were "proven fake" I would keep paying for the music I'm pleased to get. Everyone who is trully involved in this is thankful for what can be done with our group effort. There is no sin or evil in this. May this art never die.

[@Tubomiro]

“Musicologists who do not acknowledge this as a fact, are dishonest to the people they claim to serve.” Ouch! I love it! Truth hurts, like love.

[@antoniavignera2339]

Molto interessante ta ta ta ta il canone che Beethoven ha usato nella sua sinfonia.Grazie per le sue magistrali spiegazioni.

[@aysiiou]

That is quite clear I think. I found a text saying that quater notes 80 means 80 eighth notes a minute.

[@curiosadireccion]

Hello, I would like to know your opinion about the study of the Spanish musicians Almudena Martin and Iñaki Ucar, which seems to show that all this mess of the Beethoven metronome was something as simple as that the mass of the pendulum measures just 1.5 cm, which is equivalent to the scale at 12 bpm. That is to say, the metronome was such a novel tool that Bethoven did not know if he had to read the top or bottom figure of the putty. The matter is funny how simple it is. Greetings

[@jeremypresle3412]

Hi, here is an answer to the research you're talking about: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eZjMeY2viMaImcU kind regards.

[@RicardoMarlowFlamenco]

Although I don’t quite understand (can’t visualize it exactly) I was thinking it was most likely a calibration issue of some sort, because half speed is way too slow for anything being questioned. I will look it up thanks!

[@RicardoMarlowFlamenco]

Ok I read the paper, I think it makes sense, however, I have a question and a big problem. The question is does the situation hold through time that after the error of reading the marking is noticed, does the consecutive uses show correction, or does the issue of proper markings scatter throughout the years? My problem is that if it is true the situation is noticed then corrected, why did He or assistant NOT go back and fix all the wrong tempos? That is big issue.

[@ioannestritemius3791]

Hello Wim (if I may), I need no convincing of your „theory”, and in particular enjoy your „musical forensics”. I should really enjoy your take on three different topics of pre-metronome times: a) French ornaments, b) bells c) female singers. - a) French ornaments. I am aware you have done some instalments on Bach, however - heresy! - I care more about Scarlatti and Couperin than „the old wig”. Couperin prefaced his quatre libres with tables of 22 different agréments. Except for Wanda Landowska, who certainly was not HIP, I have never heard anyone truly integrate the ornaments into the music, at least not consistently so, without sounding jarring at some point. Speed apparently has to do with it; to be brief: by what sort of clock do you measure the maillotins of F. Couperin's „Tic-toc-choc” (18e ordre)? Couperin's piece could be forensic „platinum”. - b) topic, „bells”. While there are many instances of passing references to bells (Fauré, Nocturne, Quintet), I am curious with regard to tempo/overtones in pieces which imitate the ringing of bells from beginning to end, including what is called the „ringing down”. Am thinking of Tallis' „Spem in alium”, and Byrd's „The Bells” (FVB 69). I do not know which bells Tallis and Byrd had in mind and ear. The audible overtones would differ, if you heard bells from further away, or if you tried to „sing bells” within church acoustics (Tallis). In both cases, examining musical forensics, at which you are an expert, could open up a gold-, nay platinum mine with regard to proper tempi. - c) women's corsage: Some of your critics argue about slow singing tempi. It would be great to see an instalment on how woman's clothing affected their ability to breathe. Roger North, describing the English musical scene of the early 1700s, gives an example of a female singer turning her back to the audience at full-mouthed passages. Not wanting to show rotten teath is one thing. However, producing today's vocal tempi in a tight corsage without suffocating or fainting, I find a constitutional (and pre-industrial) impossibility. - Thank you, and my apologies if you have touched upon these topics already.

[@weltsauerstoff]

The english translation of the german text is a bit strange. The word "ersterer" (1st word in the 4th line) means "the first mentioned", i. e. Beethoven. But in the english translation it reads "first of all". The german text says: They sat together at a farewell-meal, Beethoven, because he was to take a journey to his brother ..., and Mälzl, because he was about to make a journey to ... -- But the english text says, they sat together to celebrate "first of all" Beethoven's journey? Sorry, that is -- not particular true.

[@weltsauerstoff]

(Sorry, should have calmed down before commentingand at least add now, that the translation error, of course, touches in no way the point Mr. Winter makes.)

[@fynnjamin]

I'm a little confused as to just how this canon proves the whole beat metronome practice - I don't see what about it is in conflict with standard metronome usage. This sentence from Schindler is anything but unambiguous.

[@AuthenticSound]

It proves that the metronome ticks indicate the subdivision of the note value in the metronome mark. basically it halves the literal speed of the MM. It's revolutionary and will change our entire perception of music history

[@fynnjamin]

@@AuthenticSound that is your opinion, and I respect your right to it.

[@fogonpr]

@@fynnjamin How is that his opinion. Is it his opinion that Shindler said "ta ta ta's are the pendulum strockes of the metronome". No it's a fact. Is it revolutionary, yes it changes the perception of how Beethoven wanted his pieces to be played.

[@paulmetdebbie447]

@@fogonpr Now we only have to know what is considered here to constitute one "stroke" of the metronome. Is it the swing from left to right or the swing from left to right AND back?

[@fogonpr]

@@paulmetdebbie447 I think you are confused because if you argue for left and right then it's what Wim proposes. But if it's from left, then right and back again, it would be like double-double beat. So please, check again the video carefully before commenting. Think of what you want to say and then write to me back. I'll be more then happy to answer your concern. Look of the note value used in the Canon.

[@DanieleZandara]

I'm interested in your research, Wim, but again this is not a strong proof as you want to claim. Plus, if we want to be picky with the text, there are only four TA's. You don't know which of them the text refers to. They could be the first, the third, the fifth and the seventh of the first bar, which are exactly those where a metronome click falls in single beat counting. I think we still have to find a strong proof. Since there are evidence in Melzel's metronome instruction and also in the Czerny opus 500, there's nothing that strong for the double beat counting. Thank you anyway, i think your channel is extremely interesting, double beat or not.

[@Renshen1957]

In the German (which I read) and in the English my first language it's plain as day the 16th notes are ta, just as the text shows, the beats of the metronome. Ta Ta Ta Ta. This as a contemporary work at this time shows quite plainly the double beat method. When single and where Whole Beat/double beat co-exists and then later single beat achieves supremacy will take research. Currently, very few musicologists show interest, but the paradoxes of very fast works being unplayable in Single Beat interpretations can't be ignored. Unfortunately, too many current musicologists aka experts are dogmatic about single beat's existence back to the Metronomes invention, and speak Ex Cathedra on the subject, by ignoring the obvious.

[@DanieleZandara]

@@Renshen1957 Renshen1957 I'm Italian but I can read and listen to English without any problem. It doesn't seem that obvious to me that those four TA's refer to 16th's. Read it again: "the metronome marking shows the proper tempo for the allegretto movement." The metronome marking shows 72=quaver, which means you will have 4 beats in every bar, which are those four Ta Ta Ta Ta mentioned next in the text.

[@DanieleZandara]

@@Renshen1957 by the way, I agree with Marco Risolino when he says that Ta Ta Ta Ta refer to the sound of the metronome, not to the way of playing this piece. The text explain what the TA word represents.

[@AuthenticSound]

There is absolute no discussion here to be having. The orchestral part even has always the 16ths playing, and if you'd attach the ticks to the 32notes, which would be weird, you'd end up having a double-whole beat practice. This source is rock solid, there is no millimeter you can give to the half or single beat believers. Period.

[@surgeeo1406]

@@AuthenticSound I just had an idea... You could record this piece!

[@Hidden_Frames]

6:20 for the revelation

[@VallaMusic]

bravo - you are a wonderful teacher and brilliant advocate for the great Apollonian art of music

[@ihaveneverwantedto]

You know I was just thinking: when we tap our feet, we always count 1&2&…etc like in whole beat theory.

[@re1ntyes]

Very interesting. This is definitely a point against strict single beat interpretation where every tick of the metronome corresponds to the note duration written in the metronome marking. But because of the inconsistent way of dividing the ticks in the example (a tick or "ta" either per 16th, per 32nd, or dotted-8th-plus-16th) we can't say what it exactly means either. Therefore, for me at least, it's not a definitive proof for WBP, but definitely makes it difficult for a hard-line stance on SBP

[@gabithemagyar]

I agree. I think this is suggestive, but not conclusive.

[@SinanAkkoyun]

Wow, thank you!

[@YusufYalcin83]

The difference between 8th symph. 2nd mov. and the ta-ta-ta song is approx. %18 tempo change. So i can not prove this is surely true but just to understand the realistic tempos i can apply it instead of playing at crazy fast tempos.. it works… %18.??

[@anthonymccarthy4164]

I have dealt with a different problem, not a musical one, which I researched through the primary source documentation over the past fifteen years. After awhile I could predict which people in the intellectual history of that problem I would find confirming evidence in and after a while I found that every time I looked for such confirmation, it was there in the words of those who had produced the primary documentation EVEN AS THE SECONDARY AND TERTIARY LITERATURE DENIED WHAT THEY SAID. I think you've done the same thing with this problem. I will tell you that you will continue to find the evidence that makes your case but you will have scoffers and deniers who will cite the misrepresentation of the secondary, tertiary and even farther removed writers. Your obligation to intellectual integrity is only to expose the primary documentation and what it says, you can't lead those reluctant asses to drink the water you bring them. It's like Galileo not being able to talk the Ptolemaic professors to look through his telescope, as he wrote to Kepler (and it was the Ptolemaic academics, not the Cardinals as seen in movies).

[@dnte5921]

Thank you. This makes me want to revisit all the Baroque period music

[@channelelectronique]

Brilliant and unambiguous.

[@FabricioRodrigues...]

this apply just to rachmaninoff as well? or just to beethoven and music till the early romantism? kzbin.info/www/bejne/pHevoGeMq6yVa5o cuz for him we have recordings of his actual playing

[@dominicstorella1903]

Naw it supposedly faded out by then. I personally don't believe this since there's recordings of Saint Saens which would place it earlier, and there's little reason why musicians would suddenly transition to playing twice as fast.

[@FabricioRodrigues...]

@@dominicstorella1903 I don't know if they would "suddenly" transition to do it, I indeed believe that it could happen over time, even the roman alphabet wasn't read equally throughout Europe, who could say about music notation, but it's something that we need to question and ask to ourselves... "What if...?"

[@dominicstorella1903]

@@FabricioRodrigues... How do you propose that something so drastic and binary could happen over time? The only option I see is if they got faster over time and eventually decided that it was more convenient to re-interperate the metronome markings? If this were true, it would mean people eventually made the decision to re-interpretation the metronome markings, and it makes little sense that there would be no writing or record of such a switch.

[@FabricioRodrigues...]

​@@dominicstorella1903 Let's suppose you were from the south of Italy in mid 16ths or 17ths, some city with a great and historical college of music, and pretty much fond of your ways to do and read music. In a wet summer noon, a friend come to you and show a transcription he got by 4th or 5th hand of a piece of some crazily dramatic composer of Poland or England who in fact weren't really known for his good transcription skills, in fact, he only put in the paper the body of it, the nuances he kept to himself, so you guys read the music, play it sometimes and think of his piece BRILIANT! But you guys did read the piece the way you were thought in your city. It didn't matter the nuances, the different cultuer, different philosophies, different languages or different ways to see the world, you played the piece your way. So you start to research for more of that, and found a lot of other composers and even ignore that the way they write the pieces on the paper could have some slight differences, like the metronome marks for 2 notes a beat, or 4 notes a beat, or one note a beat. Maybe you became a teacher one day and start teaching your vision of that music. Maybe one day one of your students even become a great genius and help to spread this type of interpretation... or your academy become so influential that everyone look for a chair in the classes and your start to talk to more people about it... Of course it is just a silly anedote, but you got the idea, right? If even the same language can become so different like Brazilian portuguese and Portugual portuguese, why music notation would be ivulnerable to that type of change? As Adam Neely explained in his video about the music being white supremacist, changes in how we percive music can happen more than we think. (And conservatoirs conservate some ideas, but ideas of whom? Who can tell?) But again, just a wondering, I never studiet about it, and have no background to talk about. I'm just a piano lover lol

[@FabricioRodrigues...]

and just a little opinion, I don't think that reading it "wrong" is a bad thing... really. I think that impose "THE TRUE WAY TO PLAY IT" is the problem... Do your fucking interpretation and if it's beautiful, why not enjoy? Even if it you play 3x faster or change the ppp with legatto for a FFF stacatto... I don't think it should matter.

[@dreamsdreams9493]

Esto no es nuevo. Siempre ha sido controvertido y misterioso el tempo, matices, colores, y velocidad con la que se debe de interpretar una obra musical. La partitura tiene limitantes. La única opción que tendríamos para saber con exactitud cómo debe plasmarse una obra con todos los detalles, sería escuchar grabaciones del mismo compositor ejecutando o dirigiendo sus obras. Como esto no fue posible hasta principios del siglo XX, tenemos millones de obras que su interpretación siempre será subjetiva y controversial. En lo que a mi concierne, debido a los factores antes mencionados, he decidido solamente interpretar obras en mi instrumento (piano) cuyos compositores han grabado: Prokofiev, Bartok, Rachmaninoff, por mencionar algunos. Qué opinan ustedes??

[@BircePolat]

wow!

[@Renshen1957]

You can say that again!

[@jamesowen8623]

this is cool! btw 461st

[@reflechant]

I'm sure more of such examples will come out in years to come. You just need to abandon status quo and start digging

[@RosaGrau2014]

The 16th notes would be ticks but also the 32nds. Both have "ta" written below. So what does that prove? I don't understand your point. To me this is just a musical joke.

[@AuthenticSound]

It absolutely proves everything. Obviously Beethoven (or Schindler) did want to give a little bit of variation in rhythm, but even if you would say that we don't know if Schindler wasn't talking on the 32d notes (which would be a weird statement to accept but anyway), even then the 16th notes end up being the longest note value to have the ticks attached to; There are no 8th notes... and thereby the single beat story completely ends. I guess no one is in for a 'double-whole beat' theory since that is what the 32d notes would lead us to.

[@RosaGrau2014]

Does the metronome marking in 8ths force a composer to write in 8ths?

[@niklas_klaavo]

There is written 2/4 and 16 'ta'-s in 2 bars. If 'ta'-s were 8th notes, there would be only 8 'ta'-s. But there is 16 'ta'-s so they are 16th notes. Simple

[@DanieleZandara]

@@niklas_klaavo Hi, you keep copy/paste this comment and I wanted to explain you that it doesn't make sense. It's true that there are 16 Ta's in two bars, BUT there are 9 Ta's in the first bar and 7 Ta's in the second. 9+7. Not 8+8. Think about it. It's way different. This remind me that joke that says: if you eat 2 cakes and I eat 0 cakes, on average we have eaten 1 cake each other!

[@ibechane]

@@DanieleZandara This is obviously an interpretation, but if you imagine this as an actual song, the tas that start the piece, especially given that they are on the same note, establish the imitation of the metronome, and then after that, with rhythmic and pitch variance, a melody emerges. Obviously a piece written only in 16th notes would be super boring. I can totally imagine this being sung with a metronome ticking as the accompanying percussion.

[@franzliszt3195]

Don't understand what he's talking about.

[@tedb.5707]

Tick, tick, tick....

[@surgeeo1406]

Third, goddammit!

[@Renshen1957]

LOL!

[@JB-dm5cp]

Funny

[@AA-le9ls]

This is good news to all wind players. Now they will hopefully be allowed to play much slower than they have done so far, which will make it possible for them to inhale properly while playing. Between phrases, they will have plenty of time to inhale, and they can even start inhaling in the middle of phrases. The phrases will not be broken by that. If you feel that you would breake a phrase by inhaling in the middle of it, you are playing too fast.

[@thomashughes4859]

First! ... WOHOO!!!

[@martinh1277]

Wim sees the tempo bottom up and he is convincing including his video "Beethoven".His "Schubert" version is much to slow to me. See Schubert top down. The old Vienna pianists had a very traditional training and copied the interpretation of their masters. They all played similar, the Vienna style. Nowadays we can still hear Buchbinder and Brendel and so on and listen to tempo and phrasing, playing Schubert. There is no doubt to me that Schubert at his time must have been played in a similar way, including the tempo. The result is a crasy thing. In Vienna at that time, they had two manners of looking at the tempo. The historical, as always mentioned from Wim, and the modern one. They took the old view for Beethoven and the new view for Schubert. At any time and any place the view must have changed. Nowadays we hear a Beethoven Sonata from Barenboim and he is much faster than Brendel. I could hardly understand what he played. The classical Sonatas are played to fast today, so much is obviously.