Frank B. Wilderson III | Afropessimism

Recorded April 28, 2020
Frank B. Wilderson III spent more than five years in South Africa, where he was one of two Americans elected to the African National Congress during the country’s transformation after apartheid. His books include Incognegro: A Memoir of Exile and Apartheid and Red, White & Black: Cinema and the Structure of U.S. Antagonisms, and he served as a dramaturge for the Lincoln Center Theater in New York and the Market Theatre in Johannesburg. Chair of African American Studies and professor in the Culture & Theory Doctoral Program at the University of California, Irvine, he has been honored with the Zora Neale Hurston/Richard Wright Legacy Award for Creative Nonfiction and an NEA Literature Fellowship. In Afropessimism, Wilderson fuses innovative philosophy with trenchant memoir to argue slavery’s unique historical social position and its pervasiveness even today.

[@ryanfarnsworth6782]

Frank was my favorite professor at UC Irvine. His positions on Afro/White relations literally changed ENTIRELY how I think. His teaching are more relevant now than ever, and my thanks to him cannot be quantified.

[@omalone1169]

Just give us your money

[@nykballaz]

The explanation of the difference between the worker vs the capitalist and the slave vs the human is so thorough. While the worker has opportunity to resume his position the slave is innately trapped in that status

[@iancaldeian]

Accessing his ideas through his speech (vocabulary etc) is tough. I love the though of creating the foundation for a paradigm shift for people of African descent.

[@stoplayin21]

It’s tough, however it slow down my attention towards his words.

[@omalone1169]

@@stoplayin21 the politics of difficulty Judith Butler These are questions of access

[@uranasshat]

@@omalone1169 If you like obscurantism masquerading as profundity, then Judith Butler is for you.

[@adminw4p171]

GREAT TALK! I’m looking forward to buying this book.

[@omalone1169]

Slaves are implements of other people's need Not agents of their own will and volition

[@stoplayin21]

I’m reading this book now and its definitely game changer and your life is so interesting.

[@omalone1169]

What page you on ? Have you read Tommy Curry?

[@alessandrarosales7174]

The fact that the facilitator asked about redemption shows he lied about following along

[@omalone1169]

In terms of when Wilderson claims around 30 that the slave cannot be redeemed

[@estebanb7166]

Maybe he feels differently and wants to explore that issue, they greater length. People often express themselves poorly. I'd bet you excuse minor communication errors in those you agree with and respect.

[@in.der.welt.sein.]

Good point around 47:00 about the way in which explanations and critiques are de facto dismissed if they aren't "constructive" i.e. positive recommendations about how the socio-economic system could solve the problems it creates in the first place. Everyone knows the constant refrain: "what's your alternative? What's your solution?" Essentially most people approach criticism as if they are voters being solicited to pick a new set of rulers who will tell them how to live, or a consumer picking a commodity from a shop rack. All respectable social commentary sees itself that way: as constructive advice about how rule can better itself.

[@omalone1169]

07:52 The act of violence constitutes the prehistory of all stratified societies 08:25 violence to transform peasantry to proletariat Once they are inculcated as workers don't want violence constituting paradigm to resurface unless it is the slave Also the concurrent history of the lived experience of the paradigm It does not transform to hegemony when you acquiesce It is always there

[@Mars-cs5dp]

frank has aged so well!

[@johnstewart7025]

If not for fall of Soviet Union, South Africa would be more like Zimbabwe, Angola or Cuba?

[@omalone1169]

35:00 anti black violence is necessary for the psyche of the World

[@SpaceDaddy69]

From an anthropological perspective the only criticism I would have with this idea is that it is too close to other ideas which have a logical base that rests on ethnocentrism, in fact, it seems to base itself off of the negative effects that have resulted from colonial as well as other variations of ethnocentrism across history. The issue with ethnocentrism being that one thinks one’s cultural view or perspective is the only correct/valid one given one’s narrative of events, such as how European colonizers saw natives of the America’s as “savages” and “beasts”. Ethnocentric ideas aren’t fully objective and create narratives that don’t often align with true objective observation/analysis. The social issues he brings up, however, are all very much valid. They are issues that themselves arise from the historical ethnocentrism of America.

[@smokegoodeatgoodlivegood6505]

that's a reach no? european notions of ethnocentrism embedded/embodied in colonisation in comparison to what you just listened to. can your anthropological perspective can be taken seriously?

[@SpaceDaddy69]

Smokegood, Eatgood, Livegood not european notions of ethnocentrism, ethnocentrism itself is a universally observed and noted concept.

[@SpaceDaddy69]

Smokegood, Eatgood, Livegood to clarify, I’m comparing some of the ideas presented to ethnocentrism, not colonial european ethnocentrism, the example itself was meant to convey the backwardness of subscribing to ethnocentrically based ideas.

[@sennecawise7899]

Yes and it seems a lot like black nationalism refashioned into a generic theory for all black people. It also provides no insight that black americans for example are prodcut of so many cultures and histories, and relies on keeping the colonial idea of the black frozen

[@jeanettesdaughter]

So what are you saying that Black resistance is not valid unless it is not Black⁉️ I know from the weight of history, all that has happened and continues to happen: no one else can alleviate our suffering; no one else has the experience. That centers the human being, that we are human and completely unwilling to be enslaved. Completely.

[@JD-ny3vz]

Also there was not a substantial amount of Nayive American slaves post the 1650s not even close. Most Native slavery ended in the first half of the 17th century.

[@rickeyt423]

I'd love for him to talk in laymen terms lol.

[@omalone1169]

Listen to his interview on the COWS

[@Aritul]

I agree. I got lost a few times.

[@johnstewart7025]

Wilderson: The Afropessimist being is situated by violence, not by discourse, as with being in gender, class, race etc.

[@user-ru1qk4qq1u]

Pure ideology must be what makes the paper of his book so weighty.

[@victoryyates]

Cant get over the fact that he is married to a white woman

[@keithhunt5328]

Lol

[@dimitrij8669]

exactly. It’s disgusting

[@estebanmunoz7486]

Classic.... 😂😂😂😂

[@in.der.welt.sein.]

Miscegenation is a European-colonialist concept.

[@JD-ny3vz]

Lol that's wild

[@raymondhoward7164]

I really want to like this guy, but he's already made 2 false statements and 1 very troubling assertion in the first 8 minutes. 1. His description of how he's done his footnotes is what's known as an index. Most serious non-fiction books used to have this and some still do. It does not substitute for footnoting. 2. It was NOT necessary to repeat the act of reducing free men to slavery repeatedly in America. This gives the almost comedic impression that there were slaves being freed who, as they left the plantation to take their first free breath, were met by men with chains and whips, who, perhaps even apologetically, informed the new citizen that he was being enslaved again and would he please place his hands in the cuffs. Manumitted slaves were converted to serfs - both in the U.S. and in the British Caribbean. 3. The first slaves in the New World were natives. Even after Africans had become the large majority of slaves in the U.S., there were still substantial numbers of natives enslaved. Beyond that horror was that of attempted genocide, being driven off their land, death marches, starvation, etc. Anyone who says this sort of pogrom isn't comparable to Black slavery and its aftermath, that Black slavery is uniquely bad or peculiar is creating intellectual castles in the air. Each Colored race's experience of White supremacy is different, of course, but each has suffered, banning, forced relocation, extended imprisonment without charge, lynching, and legal decisions reducing their status officially to less than that of Whites.

[@armonnewsom1187]

On your second point, you can compare forced sharecropping as serfdom however the immediate use of of the 13th amendments loophole in conjunction with vagrancy laws, hyperciminalization, overpolicing, black codes, etc. Did indeed effectively re-enslave many black people. On the 3rd point yes indigenous people were enslaved but we must also examine the social and political views of the time. For example the noble and ignoble savage. Even as both groups were being violently oppressed distinctions were made between them placing one below the other. Indigenous communities being posed as the noble savage that is knowledgable of the land and agriculture vs the black ignoble savage that is dumb, brutish, wild, dangerous, violent etc. And not to mention the fact that some indigenous tribes also held black slaves that they treat as second class right now. In fact they were just denying vaccines to black tribesmen on their reservations. Hes not saying other groups dont face violence. However racism is a hierarchy. Different groups are perceived very differently. There are creations of model minorities and things like that. Looking at "Beyond The Binary" (BTB) Critical race theory you see coalitions being formed between nonblack groups even though the claim for the creation of BTB was that they need their own specific spaces because black theory was taking up to much. Theres also a lot of anti black language within BTB Theory that paints black americans as entitled and nativistic people who simply dont work as hard as immigrants which is why many immigrants have more wealth and access. Increasing data is showing that racial hierarchy isn't white vs. Poc but instead a more important distinction or color line is between nonblack vs black. An example of this is in housing where Non Black People of Color integrate into white neighborhoods as they ascend in class, however, even as black people ascend in class they still retain high levels of segregation. There is a long history of immigrants working towards and in some cases into whiteness through their weaponization against blackness which Wilderson even touches on here. The need to feel superior over black people still persists even in groups who are simultaneously oppressed. Groups can be oppressed but still wield power of black people. A personal anecdote of this is a friend who is an indigenous mexican oxacan migrant laborer told me his mother told him not to talk to black people. In when in a position in society where she doesn't even have citizenship and can be exploited and paid almost nothing, she maintained her feeling of superiority over black americans. And this isnt to bash non black people of color, this is to say that antiblackness is one hell of a drug. Anti blackness is prevalent everywhere.

[@armonnewsom1187]

Also his explanation on how antiblack violence functions differently than violence against other groups. For example Clare Jean Kim who's an asian critical race theorist said herself that Anti Asian violence differs from Anti black violence because it flares up depending on social and economic events. She cites as examples the spike in violence due to covid, Japan and U.S Trade tension, tension caused during WW2, and economic depressions. She then says that Antiblack violence is constant. There need not be a reason it's just ingrained in society as Wilderson said as well. For example we saw a spike in Anti Asian hate crimes recently but there are thousands of hate crimes against black people every year not to mention police brutality and incarceration. All communities face violence but antiblack violence does have a uniqueness to it.

[@raymondhoward7164]

@@armonnewsom1187 I was specifically responding to the idea that only Black people had suffered the terrors of slavery. As far as the rest, I stand by my slavery to serfdom remarks. As terrible as the Jim Crow era was, it wasn't as bad as slavery. Almost all of the forced labor was directed at Black men. Right there that should tell you this situation was partly a Black population control measure. In contrast, slave owners encouraged their slaves to have lots of children because it increased their capital. Slave children were tradable property. I've read the average was 10 children per slave woman in the South. As soon as Black people weren't an asset, they became a liability. I simply don't agree that anti-E. Asian violence is dependent on economic conditions. What's happening in my city right now (N.Y.C.) is the atrocious spectacle of Black people attacking E. Asians. That's due to the bullshit surrounding Covid 19, not economics. Whether it's assaulting Hispanic migrants, homosexuals, or - wait for it - African immigrants, Black New Yorkers are distinguishing themselves in the race for honorary White supremacists.

[@armonnewsom1187]

@@raymondhoward7164 In regards to your comment on east asian violence. Anti East Asian violence is be spurred on by Bs surrounding Covid which as I said is both a Social AND Economic event. You conveniently ignored where I said both SOCIAL and ECONOMIC events and are also ignoring the fact that black people are most affected economically and are dying the most. People cite the 1900% increase in hate crimes but also dont acknowledge that that percentage is so high because precovid there was only 1 that year. There is also a conflation of issues in the media as people will see black people committing a robbery or burglary or see a black person in a subway commit a crime against an asian person and immediately label it a hate crime. But as Clare Jean Kim who is an Asian critical race theorist has gone on record that is not an accurate depiction of a hate crime. Robberies and burglaries are up In general across the country due to the crumbling economy and experts also cite that there are far more mentally ill homeless people roaming around again due to crumbling economy. SOME of the these labeled hate crimes when you actually read into them are actually more class based and that also brings me to the fact that you must acknowledge class differences between blacks and asians. HOWEVER, do not mince my words again and reply saying I'm calling this all a farce. There DEFINITELY has been an increase I'm Anti Asian violence but these conversations lack nuance. Furthermore, as for your comments on jim Crow. Once again the use of vagrancy laws and etc. to lock black men up and force them to work for free is flat out reenslavement. It does not matter whether they have the intention of producing more bodies or not. That is enslavement. However I agree that sharecropping is akin to serfdom. Lastly, NOBODY EVER SAID OTHER GROUPS OF PEOPLE HAVE NOT SUFFERED. But even with indigenous people being enslaved they were made to feel superior to black people and this constant need of others to feel superior to black people WAS THE POINT WE WERE DISCUSSING. The enslavement of blacks I'm the transatlantic slavery trade was a unique occurrence in history and if you need explaining on why then you really dont need to be having this conversation with me. I had to do a lot of repeating that I will not do again.

[@JD-ny3vz]

Ahh I think if you read the book you'd understand the difference in the Native Americans question and in regards to other groups suffering at the hands of Europeans. He actually does a great job of parsing through what makes Black suffering more unique than other groups suffering. Which it really is if you compare it in totality. Natives obviously have their own issues and things to unpack and this isn't about oppression olympics it's about us Black people understandingvoir very unique struggles. And why is it everywhere in the world we go we are the underclass....even amongst Native Americans we were considered lower, these are facts.