GET your Automotive Wallart at 10% with code "AutoTopNL10" at Petrolvibes.com
@solarflare21996 ай бұрын
Esthetically speaking , one of my fav car on the market. Breathtaking design. And , even i'm not an EV fan , I think is the best EV on the market aswell.
@TheSheikhtareq6 ай бұрын
Agree 100%
@hovanesmarkaryan8966 ай бұрын
This car has incredible road presence, I love driving it
@Nickbaldeagle026 ай бұрын
Aesthetically
@AllanCuttingedge6 ай бұрын
Especially the Cross Turismo, literally one of the best modern design. When I'm typing this I can only think of LaFerrari looks better than that.
@fisayodele40036 ай бұрын
Aesthetically*
@Linkyboy_136 ай бұрын
To be fair i wasn't a fan of EVs until i got the chance to drive a model s a few weeks ago. And guys, don't say things like _it does have zero emotion_ or _just EV garbage_ if you haven't driven one. This car felt like nothing I've ever driven before and i couldn't stop smiling. Btw I'm not a fan of making EVs feel like petrols because yk it's just no petrol car.
@Threat_LvL6 ай бұрын
yeah this whole bashing is so fucking stupid. imagine having both on the market. EV and Petrol.
@danielshinerock15266 ай бұрын
As you say many people have not driven a fast electric car. I drove a Tesla Model S and its low end torque is incredible. I admit it also felt souless and heavy. However it goes like a rocket.
@AllanCuttingedge6 ай бұрын
EV is not the worst but tesla is. Bad build quality especially interior, every part feels cheap, no matter it's a model 3 or model S. Cars like i4 or EQE are ok.
@Linkyboy_136 ай бұрын
@@AllanCuttingedge I guess it depends what you put your personal focus on. Because i4 and EQE can't keep up with price to power ratio. But i didn't really check the whole interior in point of quality when i drove the tesla so i don't know how bad it actually is
@danielshinerock15266 ай бұрын
@@AllanCuttingedge Have a look at the What car 2023 least reliable electric car survey. Apart from this if you put Porche Taycan Faults into Google you can read many articles about this car and the issues and faults that come with it. I agree with you Tesla is worse. The Audi E tron shares the same problems as it is the brother of the Taycan. If you do not agree with the surveys on this car and the owners who report these problems that is your choice. You are entitled to your opinion.
@memorimusic4206 ай бұрын
Taycan is one of the few EVs thats really decent! Except for 'family use' & the weight. Dont listen to the instagram kids, the real car enthusiast like all sorts of propulsion!
@eggsby276 ай бұрын
I kinda miss the old headlights, still a good looking car though
@TheSheikhtareq6 ай бұрын
Yes I know what you mean. I saw an older one recently, boring EV driving experience aside, it is more beautiful than this one and of course much much more better looking than the Panamera
@timeslowingdown6 ай бұрын
@@TheSheikhtareq How do they keep making the Panamera so ugly even after multiple generational refreshes lol
@puffpio6 ай бұрын
Same The new headlights look more ‘corporate’ and match the Macan EV. I’m sure it’s more aerodynamic but it has less of a distinctive face
@TheSheikhtareq4 ай бұрын
@timeslowingdown hahaha actually I was speaking about the Panamera with my buddy who runs a car business. They are trying to have an S Class like Porsche which makes it very challenging to keep the 911 shape.
@manuelirazabal15556 ай бұрын
13:14 Most kids hate it, i think real car enthusiast can appreciate this kind of machinery
@runningdebate26706 ай бұрын
Disagree 100%, so only real car enthusiasts can appreciate EVs? Yeah I see tons of car collectors pouncing on EVs, all the car people want them, hence why the resale on them is great almost zero depreciation. Hopefully you can sense my sarcasm.
@Mearex_6 ай бұрын
takes me back to the days when trains were just transitioning from ICE to EV. Back then there were more legitimate concerns like the practicality of laying down power lines, and the undeveloped EV motor tech at the time, but look where we are at now. Only a matter of time before cars transition as well
@dtrcs95186 ай бұрын
@@runningdebate2670 example of kid
@runningdebate26706 ай бұрын
@dtrcs9518 Nice rebuttal, only person who would like an EV is a kid.
@nbobsguitar5 ай бұрын
This is my dream car because I had promised my late grandma that one day I'll buy this car and u will be the first one to sit in it😢. Now she's not there but still I know that she will be very much happy to see me with this porsche😢.
@dcDOC196 ай бұрын
This is only the beginning of the EV revolution. I love my Taycan and I can’t wait to see how the industry evolves….
@DanCantBeBanned6 ай бұрын
It goes faster in pune streets
@aryanvyas28366 ай бұрын
me lolol
@devanshgupta41076 ай бұрын
😢
@timwolke6 ай бұрын
Unfortunately it will depreciate as fast as the first Taycan. You can get a 220.000€ Taycan Turbo S from 2021 with just 10.000km für 90.000€ right now.. At least here in Germany. The market is full of cars - great deal for the second hand buyer!
@bltrendo11144 ай бұрын
Rich people don't worry about the depreciation on a new car, the person worry about depreciation won't buy a new car. commonsense
@majestix_adv4 ай бұрын
Thats why im watching now some reviews as the prices are attractive compared to a tesla that you could buy new for that price... maybe its just my opinion^^
@floor9934 ай бұрын
@@bltrendo1114 oh yes they do😅
@Nagunai6 ай бұрын
Holy f*** this car is crazy fast! Even im not a fan of electric cars but this one blows my mind!
@thomasgttd90636 ай бұрын
I think you guys you should do a podcast every once in a while. You might be one of the KZbin Chanel that drives the most numerous and diverse sport cars so you probably have an enormous knowledge to share !
@nimish20736 ай бұрын
Another depreciation king
@danielshinerock15266 ай бұрын
Oh yes!
@hansturpyn54556 ай бұрын
Overproduction. Will happen to the 911 aswell as porsche now produces them faster than cola bottles.
@danielshinerock15266 ай бұрын
@@hansturpyn5455 You make a good point! The Gt3 and 2 Rs may be ok with the depreciation. The others I agree with you!
@Race_10006 ай бұрын
@@hansturpyn5455 a friend just waited 1 year for his 911. I waited over a Year for my 911.
@Andrea-jg3sh3 ай бұрын
the facelift has some really nice improvement, also the range is getting proper! Such an amazing car, big fan
@Jason-Jason5 ай бұрын
You get the local Porsche dealership to sponsor you, watching this is 10000 times better than watching a 30 second commercial...
@mugenjin2052 ай бұрын
I love this car its a true 5 seater super car. I was looking at other cars but they only have a 4 seat with equipment in the middle which is nice for giving passengers access to features, but if you have a big family or a family person you definitely will want that 5th seat which is the middle seat in the back.
@julius_.6 ай бұрын
the headlights on the old model looked so much better much more futuristic and special looking, almost makes this one looks old
@lcofficial30846 ай бұрын
people that still hate electric cars should search for a new hobby, this car is the definition of a perfect daily, you'll never actually need more car than this. you can do whatever you need to do on 1 charge (yes haters, you do not drive more than 670 km on a daily base) and still have fun while doing it. at the end of the day you plug it in at home and in the morning it's fully charged again. i know sound and everything is nice but who cares with a daily
@daensch5 ай бұрын
5:15 in Germany it's not allowed to be able to watch a movie while you drive - I bet thats the reason why they made the second display specially for the passenger which is not visible from the drivers position.
@anshulsahu21966 ай бұрын
As far as it is a porsche bro i can never hate this bro porsche is love
@WayApp6 ай бұрын
Effortlessly sleek and chic.
@syrox85306 ай бұрын
You really cannot get the acceleration of this car, it is just so mind bendingly quick
@uNki236 ай бұрын
any Plaid from two years ago could already do better 😳 acceleration is not what sets the Taycan apart, it’s handling and quality.
@nickk00196 ай бұрын
I need to stop watching Taycan videos, never wanted an EV before and I’m now considering one!
@kdm_entertainment6 ай бұрын
Put down the phone dude. Less than the blink of an eye and its done
@madsdgdhg6 ай бұрын
The GTS will be the sweet spot between performance and range.
@arno19956 ай бұрын
2:23 not closed it
@dimsi16 ай бұрын
after 2 min it closes itself
@SpiDey15006 ай бұрын
Even my old Tesla does this automatically, so you the taycan
The color is provence, but for some reason it doesn't look the same in the Porsche configurator. It looks awesome here! 😎
@TeyanThuny2 ай бұрын
My favorite car for ever, you can drive it like formule 1 and still be good for the planet
@brock59462 ай бұрын
Good for the planet lmao
@TeyanThuny2 ай бұрын
@@brock5946 what’s funny
@brock59462 ай бұрын
@@TeyanThuny Electric cars are not good for the planet. They are arguably less bad than petrol cars, but you can't call them good. You should look into how electric cars are made and what goes into it. Hint: it's more than emissions only
@floor9934 ай бұрын
the speed at which the depreciation takes place is also completely mind blowing, they are unsellable second hand at the Porsche dealer….
@SanderVandeWiel14 күн бұрын
No car is unsellable. They just need to put it at the right price.
@1977fjp6 ай бұрын
Push to pass gives you around 90hp more. Not the full power of oberboost and Launch Control
@soyelchechu6 ай бұрын
Next: Turbo GT Weissach
@NguyenNhanQKhanh6 ай бұрын
Nice color, Max!👍
@rsamd6 ай бұрын
400km range on a charge is more than enough. people that complain about range on ev's usually dont drive ev's.
@valentingoutte10606 ай бұрын
Btw lucid air have 800 km range
@timonxDlol6 ай бұрын
@@valentingoutte1060not if you floor it. Look at real autobahn range for these things and that difference from a taycan to a lucid decreases a lot
@valentingoutte10606 ай бұрын
@@timonxDlol where Can i see it ?
@3x3Guys6 ай бұрын
It’s not that enough in the Midwest/Canada
@Jackolivierbo2 ай бұрын
For me there is never enough power. I am so used to the Plaid 1020 hp with massive 1400 nm torque : I could not drive anything less powerful. Cannot wait for 1500 hp version. 😊
@PEACEOUTXX1Ай бұрын
Yup.. elon is also my daddy. I love tesla 🏳️🌈🏳️🌈 .. us average joes finally can stop looking like losers on the road now that we got our cheap speed!! We can smoke all those rich A-holes that make our girls wet in traffic! Just told my wife yesterday in traffic !! don't look at that ferrari honey our tesla is just as fast !
@JackolivierboАй бұрын
@@PEACEOUTXX1 Actually faster ! The plaid 0 to 200 km / h in 6,2 seconds smokes them all ! I love it and my wife too. :)
@calvinallan22086 ай бұрын
Hey Max would love to see you drive the new ZO6❤❤
@razorr_o6 ай бұрын
Nice! Waiting for Taycan Turbo GT!
@TorstenHeissler6 ай бұрын
Nice review! Thx. But: NO - we DON'T hate electric cars 😉
@donpayne10406 ай бұрын
Man, smooth. They really should enable battery change easier. SO the future.
@CarlFreeman6 ай бұрын
Absolutely love it, awesome car.
@2Bunphettered7885 ай бұрын
3:55 min - agreed, it is very big! 😯
@gdmdb1076 ай бұрын
coolest car ive ever seen
@fastattacktough688i66 ай бұрын
Love the color.
@Mummykipyari6 ай бұрын
who is coming after the pune incident
@frzce6 ай бұрын
taycan is kinda infamous now here cuz on sunday night in pune, india, a 17 yo kid drove his porsche taycan at 200+ and hit a couple resulting in their death smh
@aditya_911965 ай бұрын
porsche taycan 300 word essay 💀💀💀☠️☠️☠️👿👿👿
@chunLi296 ай бұрын
9:53 road discipline in germany is unreal
@joshuamccutcheon19 күн бұрын
Germans are very efficient, you will learn that quickly if you go to Germany 🇩🇪
@DexterHR6 ай бұрын
I’d love if you could get your hands on Rimac Nevera for POV review. Would like to hear your opinions.
@yadhuprakash97355 ай бұрын
Germany have autobahn India have pune 😂
@christopherwilson4623 ай бұрын
Just beautiful car
@jeromeonmedica6 ай бұрын
Probably the only EV I would even consider owning, but not as my only car. My lifestyle, and the mileages I do, are not conducive to EV ownership as an only car. I suspect the novelty of the ridiculous acceleration would wear off pretty quickly.
@amin94166 ай бұрын
Can you test the base version?
@JedM236 ай бұрын
Beautiful Machine ❤❤
@valves.mp46 ай бұрын
new front end and headlights look like a disaster tbh, but everything else is an improvement in every single way
@danielshinerock15266 ай бұрын
Taycan Tech breaks!
@aryanvyas28366 ай бұрын
try klalyani nagar, pune
@Huelyao6 ай бұрын
Lucid Sapphire is the king
@bismayparida21156 ай бұрын
Rimac Nevara.....
@Huelyao6 ай бұрын
@@bismayparida2115 Four people don't fit in, not much luggage. Unpractical.....
@Greygoose31306 ай бұрын
Super impressive. But I just don’t “desire” an EV at this point. Maybe that will change eventually, but super impressive acceleration and cool screens are not what I love about driving.
@suneclipse06 ай бұрын
autotopnl ,pls make another "test drive" with EV with 30 % of battery .we want to see real magic 😂❤
@pauld616 ай бұрын
Ev’s! PORCHE do it the BEST - get use to it folks, ev’s are here to stay!! CLIMATE! anyone….
@efesarac-je2ip6 ай бұрын
C8 z06 pleaseee
@DatnaPatna6 ай бұрын
This is my favourite EV, but will this depreciate like the old one? :D
@pak_number14816 ай бұрын
Gorgeous car perfect for everyday daily 👌 😍
@airshok786 ай бұрын
Looks beautiful
@mean_bean_baerliner_i20n6 ай бұрын
Love the Taycan. It looks awesome!
@edgarsdzerins6 ай бұрын
Depreciation king!:)
@smey026 ай бұрын
Porsche makes a fantastic job to have a modern interior with displays, but still dont make it look like your sitting in a car from 2100 which looks just stupid. They kept the Classic lines and put displays in it. perfection That black porsche logo on the steering wheel looks stupid tho, why would you spec that???
@fischwaffel966 ай бұрын
The grey/black logos (Porsche calls it Turbonit) come as standard on every Turbo model since a couple of months. Definitely should´ve been an option to spec
@smey026 ай бұрын
@@fischwaffel96 i knew that, but I thought its only on the outside
@ricofernandes34436 ай бұрын
I just think, which is very rarely 😅 When you buy Chinese car,than you basically get all EU,USA,SK and JPN cars in the one package ❤🎉❤
@abdulrehmanharoon98816 ай бұрын
It's fast and I'm sure it drives nicely too. But it's just lacking the soul that a Porsche would normally have.
@TheSheikhtareq6 ай бұрын
Agree. Personally if they could phase out the Panamera and replace it with a gasoline or hybrid version of the Taycan, that would be nice.
@yusufcanaktas69296 ай бұрын
Cars don't have "souls", a car is a car.
@78matt6 ай бұрын
I'm sure porsche will make you have a subscription to make the heater work like they do the panamera.
@Menethilchad6 ай бұрын
@@yusufcanaktas6929Cars having a "soul" is more real than allah
@KungFuWizardOfJesus6 ай бұрын
Such a cringe take
@philipadastra6 ай бұрын
That push to pass button seems like a huge inconvenience when driving
@nomansland1206 ай бұрын
why?
@somealias-zs1bw6 ай бұрын
Right. WTF is the point, the throttle exists.
@nomansland1206 ай бұрын
@@somealias-zs1bw then press the throttle? What's the problem?
@jdavidblais6 ай бұрын
Are you never adjusted the volume of music directly at the steering wheel while driving !?? Look the same to me 😮
@keptt26 ай бұрын
they should call it electron s
@Wolf974996 ай бұрын
First frame looks very similar as a Mclaren 570s
@florianhaffner39106 ай бұрын
Absolutely stunning car
@LeonBold6 ай бұрын
Fun to see, model s plaid 1 sec faster then a twice as much costing porsche.
@PEACEOUTXX1Ай бұрын
"Pascal bernatchez" a small youtube... just posted a vid on his channel of a taycan turbo gt without the weisach package running a 9.15 on the drag strip... no tesla has ever done that... taycan is faster. With the weisach pack its going to be in the 8s. It may beat the lucid saphhire air and is already ahead of them all when it comes to suspension, handling, and braking. Porsche one upped tesla once again. Just like in 2020. Wow.
@_Av3nTad0R_6 ай бұрын
i'll take one in 3-4 years when its worth 70k 😅
@braven74266 ай бұрын
You won't have to wait that long
@radezzientertainment5016 ай бұрын
same here
@kinisiayoube44496 ай бұрын
Respect 😎🚀
@LiveFreeOrDie.6 ай бұрын
Anyone form Pune ? 🌚
@supercarloverbutnosupercarsad6 ай бұрын
Not from Pune but Bangalore. But i sure do know who Vedant Agarwal is
@danielshinerock15266 ай бұрын
Taycan tech brakes. I went to Porche to test drive one and the salesman told me do not buy one yet. Wait a couple of years till we have dealt with the tech issues. Really I thought!
@ParallelJora6 ай бұрын
The salesman shot himself in the foot 😂
@danielshinerock15266 ай бұрын
@@ParallelJora I could not believe it. I read up it afterwards and he was telling the truth!
@ParallelJora6 ай бұрын
@@danielshinerock1526 no way but as a former carsales man. It’s hard to find someone else who’s honest in that business. The stereotype of salesmen is real
@danielshinerock15266 ай бұрын
@@ParallelJora I agree with you. Perhaps this guy had had a lot of problems with people he sold this car and did not want more?
@ParallelJora6 ай бұрын
@@danielshinerock1526 yeah most likely or he talked to much lol
@Marco-g9x2n4 ай бұрын
That car is so beautiful, it should have a V8 under the bonnet. Makes no sense with an eletric motor.
@Mite2046 ай бұрын
Still i preff Panamera. Sry but i cant accept to charge something afther 200km . If i Drive it with 200kp or even 150/160 after 200km i will be dead , and looking for charge point. No , not for me. But i FAKING LOVE LOOKS OF this car !!!! FAKNG love it! Hope next 911 of Panamera will have similar ...
@razorr_o6 ай бұрын
Some cars like Lucid Air Sapphire, are capable of 500 miles range at 75 mph! So 200km range claim is out of nowhere
@Mite2046 ай бұрын
@@razorr_o Cmon man .. What is Lucid Air someting....... we are talking here about cars with heretic... with V8's nothing will ever replace the emoutions u are getting from internal combustion engine.
@razorr_o6 ай бұрын
@@Mite204 no heresy here. Pure facts
@autodigitvlogs5 ай бұрын
@@Mite204 yeah but people claim to be Enthusiasts and can't appreciate anything different
@JarmelSingsKaraoke6 ай бұрын
🔥🔥Nice
@Nollekeuh6 ай бұрын
Haha a commercial vlog for the taycan. There are literary parking lots at porsche dealers full of these that aren’t being sold, because they write off very quickly and no one will ever buy a new battery after a few years. Besides this, the follow up will come soon that will be much better. Probably a good car, but it is produced to meet the pollution requirements and the funny thing is it polluted more because no one buys and uses it instead of a ICE car.
@prayasdash2 ай бұрын
The main thing to hate for an EV is ryt at the left corner of the screen. Like look at the way the range depletes! It's madly insane. On highways, an ICE car gets better range but here it's the complete opposite. That's gonna be the biggest ever downside on any EV no matter how good it is! This range thingy will always get on your head. Driving an ICE car, the way he's driving the range would be a lot, lot, lot better! Nowadays EVs have enough performance, all they need is to somehow give better range. Either by installing solar heat absorbers kinda stuff which would charge the battery under sunlight. Also, we need another thing apart from Regenerative Braking which would be Regenerative Coasting, which is basically energy can be recovered not just during braking, but also when the vehicle is coasting. This means that even while the car is moving, with little to no throttle input, the wheels' motion can generate electricity to send back to the battery, improving efficiency. And that'll be a big contribution to actually give better range. Else, with range depleting like this, EVs can never be the future!
@ravlbi42685 ай бұрын
cool car
@vetoniohenry292718 күн бұрын
Does anyone know if the Taycan has any major issues? Considering purchasing one but I’m a bit hesitant cuz I know maintenance is costly for this vehicle
@maaz52715 ай бұрын
"MH-12" Those who don't know:-❤🎉 Those who know:-💀
@Chris.Davies6 ай бұрын
And in just 2 short years from now it will be worth 1/3rd of the purchase price today. The world's fastest depreciating EV? Quite probably! Just wait 2 years, and buy one super cheap. Only a fool would buy a new one in 2024, especially with EV demand falling off a cliff, and manufacturers slashing prices to move all the EVs they made before the market developed.
@AlpoMartinez886 ай бұрын
I’ll take the Hyundai N but this is a nice ride
@jxxxxx446 ай бұрын
Wtf
@Sadjina6 ай бұрын
I don't fully get that push to pass stuff. Why can't I just have full power always when I put it down? Is it a haptic/"gamification" thing?
@Yannister2 ай бұрын
Prolly cuz it wears off the rotor blades faster if you push them at full speed, which would be locked usually in your daily driving and unlocked through this button or smth
@beanapprentice16872 ай бұрын
because then the battery and other powertrain components would overheat due to inadequate cooling.
@Sadjina2 ай бұрын
@@beanapprentice1687 Yeah, but why are there then many other high performance EVs that don't have the button? I mean, I think you are right, but I'm still confused...
@beanapprentice16872 ай бұрын
@@Sadjina in those other performance EVs, you do get the vehicle’s maximum power simply by pressing the accelerator pedal - that is, until the powertrain begins to overheat and the car reduces its output power, even if you are still mashing the pedal. With the Porsche though, you get the ability to not overwork the powertrain unless you really need it. Regardless of whether your electric car has this button or not, you will not always get full power due to what I mentioned about overheating. Well, unless you’re driving a 2 million dollar Rimac Nevera which has 5 cooling systems to prevent any overheating. So the button kinda makes the whole process more controllable by the driver.
@Sadjina2 ай бұрын
@@beanapprentice1687 That makes perfect sense, thanks!
@GhostHunter91376 ай бұрын
I waited for the active suspension review from Max and then they give him the basic suspension model to test😫
@icarlosfernandez4 ай бұрын
But they completely killed the gorgeous front fascia, especially on the non-turbos, they look like panameras now
@nikhilgupta93056 ай бұрын
who is here after pune incident ??
@zyroxop14826 ай бұрын
lol
@zyroxop14826 ай бұрын
there was two accidents, one in kerala porsche 911 , one killed in the accident, tho it was biker's mistake, both of the accident happened on same day
@zaranski18895 ай бұрын
?
@pranavp.t14144 ай бұрын
@@zaranski1889In india a 17 year old boy drove a porsche taycan without license and killed 2 people
@MyRealName6 ай бұрын
It's still funny to me that they named it "Turbo"
@MrZelenozubi6 ай бұрын
yeah, it hasn't got an engine....or a turbo
@timonxDlol6 ай бұрын
Turbo is a word for „very fast“ and existed long before the turbo charger. Most ICE turbo charged Porsches also are not called „turbo“.
@MyRealName6 ай бұрын
@@timonxDlol It is not a word for very fast, don't make things up. It's latin for disturb or agitate and confuse. That's where "turbulence" comes from. Even if you were right, which you are not, in cars a turbo has a specific meaning and we know exactly what it refers to. Same goes for Porsche.
@andreasreichwaldt39945 ай бұрын
@@MyRealName if it’s Latin for disturbing or confusing it’s a good choice for this model, no?😅
@fuchsernst45616 ай бұрын
Gamecontroller with 4 rubbers
@SpiDey15006 ай бұрын
I really like it. Will consider it in 5 years, when you can get it used for under 15.000€
@Nikku_GyuGyu6 ай бұрын
Keep dreaming
@Rextuz6 ай бұрын
I wonder how often you will have to charge it if you are driving 200 on the autobahn. 1-2k km might be faster in a 1999 Renault Clio
@fischwaffel966 ай бұрын
There is a test with a very early Taycan 4S without any software update that improved efficiency. The result was 48,5kWh/100km (range of 178km) with an average speed of ~179km/h. If you charge it from 10 to 80% at every charging stop (70% = ~125km per charge) and you always use >300kW chargers you need 7 charging stops and ~140min for them. Total time for 1000km would 7h 54min with an overall average speed of 127km/h
@ivanbelyanovjr.80256 ай бұрын
@@fischwaffel96 do you know what's the consumption @ ~179km/h (or similar) after all the software updates?
@ilkerYT6 ай бұрын
Can we get a ReGen Breaking showcase @AutoTopNL
@MeritonGjoshi6 ай бұрын
They have depreciated so much in the market like all other EV’s, not worth it at all, was looking to buy one but yeah..hope value holds better