Aviation Insurance, Why is it Out of Control? InTheHangar

(Please Subscribe and Watch!). We still have AIrventure content coming, but wanted to get this important interview out about the state of aviation insurance. Chad Smolik joins Dan Millican and Christy Wong for a frank discussion on why rates have skyrocketed and what the future holds.
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[@KevinSmithAviation]

Excellent episode Dan and Christy, thank you. It was definitely very educational. Thank you for braking it down for us. Keep up the excellent work as always. Safe skies 🤘🇺🇸🛩️

[@f14flyer11]

Insurance is going to kill GA and aircraft ownership...

[@DWBurns]

I think it has. I have a 1973 Arrow II with 1900 factored hours and a CFII, only personal use, it is $2200 a year. Hull value $85,000, that covers my radios. I renew in January, see if they pick me up.

[@3SM20Pilot]

I bought my plane 3 years ago as a student. I feel like I'm just getting started but due to the increase in insurance and fuel cost I'm not able to fly as much as could when I first bought it. I'm already considering selling it even though I really don't want to.

[@huachuca1723]

As a relatively "low" time pilot with my rotary wing commercial and instrument, insurance is the one thing preventing me from purchasing an aircraft that best suits my needs. I have seen premiums from 7k all the way up to 10k. Extremely frustrating...😠

[@ownbiz47]

Contact us: Aviation Insurance Company 877-505-2069 [e-mail] www.aviationinsurancecompany.com

[@huachuca1723]

@Robert W's I was told by an aging Lance pilot that his premiums were around the 4k mark. He has 2k + hours in time in type and 4k total.

[@huachuca1723]

​@Robert W's 76

[@stevenhorney7735]

I'm part of a well-established flying club that currently has a Piper Archer III and a Cessna 172. We added a Vans RV12 to the fleet a couple of years ago, but just sold it because only a few of us were actually flying it (sad, because it was far and away the most fun to fly of the 3 planes). The irony was (and part of the reason for selling the plane) that the RV 12 was noticeably more expensive to ensure than either of the two certified aircraft, even though it was a much simpler and cheaper plane. I would love to understand the insurance companies' reasoning on that one...

[@thewaterengine]

Was it an SLSA? If that was the case it makes no sense given that SLSA have better safety record as of 2021 per 100k hours flown than any other types of GA non commercial aircraft, including certified aircraft. However, was it an ELSA or EAB LSA? If either of those are true then you have your answer. The safety record of ELSA and EAB LSA is much worse than either certified non-commercial GA planes or SLSA. In fact, amateur built/maintained planes in general have an iffy safety record, which would explain the higher insurance cost.

[@stevenhorney7735]

@@thewaterengine I suppose it was EAB LSA, since it was built by a private individual and qualified for Light Sport.

[@smokingspitfire1197]

Remarkably. Over here in Europe we do not have the same problem! I pay £1300 a year as a 155 hour pilot to insure my Piper PA-24 Comanche 260B. And thats with just a £500 excess, full betterment, and a hull value of £100,000!

[@patrickheavirland3599]

Hello from Minnesota! Really great episode!

[@larryl43]

THANK YOU

[@23103a]

Great episode!

[@chags9307]

As a Property and Casualty actuary (not in aircraft), pretty good explanation of reinsurance and the hurdles we have to overcome with such a closed market. Sure there are 20 companies but only a couple of reinsurers which cuts down the options and increases the price we have for aircraft insurance.

[@hoffmanaeronautics6192]

@Chags I don't mean to pick on anyone, but I've been nagged by a question. It seems to touch on your specialty which is why I ask, Please take this in the spirit it's intended. If the insurance companies have to alter their premiums (and rules) based on claims, does that mean the risk modelling is bad? We had been hearing -- even before hull values went through the roof -- that insurance companies had to raise rates because of losses. If (as we've been told) the GA accident rate is at a plateau or even declining, how does it make sense that rates should rise? This isn't limited to aviation. I live in a state that's prone to wildfire, and even with that knowledge, homeowner coverage becomes more expensive after fires, even though the forests have stood since homes were first insured here. I know it can seem easy to pick on insurance companies, and that's not my intent, but do you have any insight?

[@LarryPortouw]

Excellent. I'm going to link this in our EAA chapter newsletter.

[@TakingOff]

Please do! Thanks Larry.

[@stoldrag85]

At 12:50 during the non owned discussion Chad said that non owned is a liability coverage and that you would not be insured for a bird strike as an example. If I want to be covered by insurance in case of a bird strike, how is that accomplished?

[@matthewrainey1894]

How bad is the insurance situation if you have a Sport Pilot Certificate? And, own the new Bristell?

[@5128goldenrod]

Awesome show guys, really eye popping. Do commercial ratings, above an IFR add much value/reduce cost of insurance?

[@TakingOff]

I know IFR does

[@charlesfrantz230]

WOW, guys very eye opening. So I guess my first question is dose Congress need to look at this because if the Insurance Company's continue down this path, The GA world is going to get even smaller because we will be priced right out of a great adventure "GA Flying". I hope Orgs, like AOPA can help manage this issue. WOW again very eye opening. Great video.

[@alangarrett1181]

Not this Congress!

[@publicmail2]

Insurance companies can charge almost whatever they want and if perils go up they just raise rates, the house always wins.

[@gtr1952]

I have to pay those premiums too, and I don't like it either. However insurance is a business, and claims are funded by premiums. As I posted above, in the first 17 days of September there were 18 fatal GA crashes and 37 people died. All that has to be paid for, by us! I couldn't even imagine the $$ amount. A simple prop strike is $30k! We pay for those too. As Mr. Smolik said, some insurance companies just say no. I ran my own computer business for ~15 years, maybe I just look at it differently. But what comes in has to be more than goes out. Or there is no sense in doing it at all. Peace --gary

[@vgrof2315]

@@gtr1952 Yep, 37 fatalities in 17 days/18 accidents says it all. The insurance companies have no choice but to put the hammer down. The accident rate is more than a problem in training and experience, it's a serious problem in pilot judgement. I think one missing element of it all is that the insurance companies do not see fit to involve themselves in the safety institutes and conferences. You talk to the typical insurance guy, he doesn't know one end of an airplane from the other. I don't see anything changing except that GA will die a painful death. We're just in over our heads.

[@marcelbouffard6537]

Do we need special coverage for flying outside the USA (Canada & Bahamas)?

[@Sports-Jorge]

CFI insurance same as non-owner liability only?

[@jimiemick]

As a community i think what we really need to have a deeper look in to is why do we keep having so many Accidents/Incidents. We complain that premiums are going up. But there is some resoning behind it as mentioned. Not only is there more claims, but the claims are costing more, look at aircraft prices in the past 3 years. Ive seen some planes Tripple in price. Yet every day I see yet another Accident. Insurance companys are a business, I wouldnt run a business if it cost me money. Yes there is some greed, but there is alot of ways they can justify it. Lets not give them a reason!!!!

[@f14flyer11]

That was a funny end...kind of left everyone speechless......YIKES

[@TakingOff]

Not sure what you mean? I went and rewatched, standard goodbye and then credits?

[@ecossearthur]

Boom Boom!! 💥

[@publicmail2]

My insurance said if I get a modification on my 210 so the gear cannot be retracted, I could save 40%...

[@maximolopezsr9399]

How much is the spence

[@wilzboyz]

Just getting into a DA62. Both pilots are IFR rated. Both have 400 hours. Both went to OH for training in a DA42. 1st year of insurance is nearly 40k. Required to have 10h with certified pilot.

[@TakingOff]

Wow on the 40K. How many pilots does that cover?

[@wilzboyz]

@@TakingOff 2 pilots. No accident history. Hull value is 1.3m I believe.

[@TakingOff]

@@wilzboyz Oh, the hull value is a lot higher than I thought. Still 40K seems way out of whack. Im seeing 5K for a $275K hull. Times four on hull would only be half of that premium.

[@Saml01]

@@TakingOff here is an interesting perspective. 3% of 1.3 million is about 40,000. Buy a $60,000 car and insured for full coverage 3% of that is $1,800. About what you would expect to pay out of pocket to an auto insurance company every 6 months. It's not that crazy.

[@TakingOff]

@@Saml01 Well thats mindblowing.

[@JB_Hobbies]

Totaled at under the limit? That seems weird to me. Compare to my boat that had slightly more damage than the policy covered, and the insurance just wagged its finger, paid, said they aren’t going to total it, and still let me keep the boat. It was nice because this happened right when the pandemic hit, and I just wasn’t aware of how fast boat values were climbing. Also, my boat is comparatively super cheap, soooo maybe that had something to do with it.

[@brianeney4856]

Got an experimental aircraft built by a after-school high school students. Now we need to insurance to fly it. And gave no luck insuring it. The other issue we it insured as a requirement to hangar it on airport property. Please help!

[@modocroughstock5700]

I'd like to buy it and have many classic vehicles to trade if you are interested

[@brianeney4856]

Plane belongs to a non-profit pilot organization which promotes aviation, and engineering. Don't think classic vehicles fit our mission.

[@glennwatson]

@@brianeney4856 maybe a bot reply I suspect.

[@brianeney4856]

Figures, I can't get insurance agents to call me back. Apparently, I tried all 20 companies. :/

[@Coughtry]

Increase competition increasing the supply.

[@Greg71pa]

Where does someone find an insurance broker for aircraft

[@TakingOff]

You can click the link in the description for Chad, or try AOPA, or Clemens Insurance.

[@alangarrett1181]

How does one locate an honest and knowledgeable broker who is also a pilot? Anyone got any recommendations?

[@TakingOff]

Chad is one. Also Jerry Clemens at Clemens Insurance.

[@Stephan352]

This will lead to a lot of "self Insuring". I won't upgrade to a complex aircraft because of overvalued aircraft and B.S insurance

[@avflyguy]

For Hull coverage, yes. You can't insure you yourself for Liability - well, you can, but you'd loose everything.....right or wrong. At least with Liability insurance, the insuring company provides you an attorney. Without, you'd be on your own - you can't afford that risk.

[@kk6aw]

I got my license 1962-1963, this topic was a non issue. At no time was I advised on insurance, school or individual. I was fortunate that I never had an inflight or ground issue in my 170 hours logged. Than marriage ended my flying.

[@avflyguy]

A history lesson may provide some insight. Rates / Coverages / Terms / Risk Selection and more. Pre 9/11, aviation rates and coverages requirements were not that much different then than now. It's what happened immediately and for the years following 9/11. The worldwide aviation insurance industry went in complete chaos. Staggering losses, the likes of which the world had never seen. Rates for airlines (far different than GA rates) skyrocketed year after year. Eventually some of that trickled down to the GA market to an extent. Underwriting was tightening, and set the insurance companies scurrying for what to do. Increased Airline rates continued for many years afterwards. Reinsurors were set on their heels and many in fact went out of business or consolidated with others.... The industry finally started recovering from massive unseen rates and unheard of massive liability losses. Reinsurors and the 'real' domestic insurance industry started recovering and rates began to decline again. Underwriting GA rates (hull and liability) went kind of soft again, so off to the races again as It seemed everyone was making a boat load of money. At one time there were 27+ companies back in the loop again. What most people don't understand is the difference between real insuance companies and what are called MGA's (Managing General Agencies) - These so-called MGA's were popping up all over the place. They are not the actual insurace carrier/company. For simplicity, lets just say MGA's worked out deals with domestic multi line P&C carriers to write a line in aviation, where MGA's themselves took very little risk in losses. The vast majority of losses were reinssured. Now that the reinsurors were rolling in money again because there hasen't been to this day anything on the scale of 9/11, they were open for business again and would go along with almost anything. Speaking of almost anything, this is also about the same time that the super high performance aircraft marketplace started making significant entry into a new market. Owner flown turbo-props, both singles and twins were attractive options to the piston engine market. YES--Even owner flown Single Pilot Jet's became attractive and dooable. New Avioncis in these aircraft gave pilots unprecedented new technology. Gone were the steam gauges. Insted, a suite of new glass panel avionics/autopilots, etc - and more powerful computing power than NASA's Space Shuttle!! Problem was, there really weren't any previous loss actuarial tables to go by, so it was the wild-wild west in General Aviation Land across the country. At the time nobody knew what rates and how coverages should really be priced. Taking relatively low time pilots into high and super high performance aircraft now became a lucrative premium base for the carriers (both the real companies, and the MGA's and their in-the-dark insurance companies). Quickly it was a dog eat dog market and high premiums were becoming more mainstream than ever and everybody wanted a piece of it. A Pvt/inst 500 hr TT, 200RG , 0 MM could actually buy and get insurance on these new turbine single engine aircraft that seemed to be popping up everywhere. Once again, the domestic aviation markets as well and European (mostly) reinsurors eyes got excited seeing very high premiums on a class of new aircraft with no basis for what underwriters were all doing trying to write this new class of business. 9/11 in many reinsuror and domestic insurors eyes had also faded and it was all about this new premium, advanced avionics, Sim based training - what could go wrong mentality. Then more underwriters and carriers wanted a bite of the apple too. New companies and MGA's were everywhere. It took a few years, but sooner or later the losses started coming in, and they were big losses. 2-5-25 million CSL liability limits and hulls at well over a million bucks a pop. And of course came the high profile owner/pilots Quite different than good ole Joe putting around in his C-150. It'd take many dozens of that type risk to come anywhere close to the premiums for a single new Turbo-prop in this new class of owner flown turbo prop (both single and twins). Then came along the owner flown jets with the same crazy mentality of underwriters competing for this class as well. A pvt asel amel inst pilot with 750TT, 150 MEL or a transitioning single engine turboprop to jump in a single pilot jet. For a time, it was utterly insane for any aviation insurance underwriter or the claims guys that knew what was coming. And, sure enough it did. Now set back by some very expensive losses + exorbitant legal fees, the European reinsurors again started seeing red numbers again. Bye bye soft market conditions; hello again to hard market, tight underwriting, lower limits, higher deductibles, more strict underwriting. So, essentialy reinsurors and domestic risk taking carriers slammed on the brakes. And, that, folks, is where we are today and IMO for the foreseeable future. Finally, if you've got insurance, stay put. Don't go shopping. Your options will diminish quickly. If you're new, find a good well establised agent and happily stay where you are. Computers and underwriters now keep track of what agents submit to underwriters. It has become easy for the companies and underwriters to say NO again.

[@lawrencethompson465]

Re: non owned insurance, are first time introductory “pilots” supposed to have non owned insurance? From what this guy is saying it certainly sounds like it.

[@MsRandiCook]

Where does experimental fall into this insurance matrix?

[@ibgarrett]

That will depend upon the type of experimental. Build an RV - they are almost semi-non-experimental and you'll probably do fine. Build something new and be prepared...

[@MsRandiCook]

@@ibgarrett CGS HAWK is what I am looking at? Hard, medium hard, easy policy binding? No need for hull as if I mess it up, I'll fix it myself. I am a 250 hour private pilot, with instrument rating, high performance & retractable gear. Instrument check ride was in a Cessna T210.

[@ibgarrett]

@@MsRandiCook Holy crap - you took your instrument in a T210? You're way better than I am. I've got time in a T210 and that was a handful! In my limited insurance experience (Other than excelling in bitching about it), when you go to liability only the dynamics change in your favor, and honestly, that's going to be what I have to do with my experimental. The reason it changes is because the insurance company is no longer on the hook for covering the repair/replacement of the airplane but more about bodily or insurance damage if you were to hurt/kill someone or break others airplanes/property. I doubt the insurance would be terribly expensive for a Hawk like that.... but that's only my best guess. :)

[@MsRandiCook]

@@ibgarrett I know. It was challenging for sure. At my age now, 67, I have no desire to go build an RV. With that being said, I did fall in love with the new RV15. Just an amazing design and well within my ability to assemble. But, I really want something simple and inexpensive to fly now. So, I found a new 2 seater Hawk with a Rotax 912UL. It's setup to go cross-country, but I'm sure my back would be needing chiropractor at each fuel stop. GA has gotten so expensive. Our Pilots Club, is trying to attract new members. By the time they pay the membership, $365 per year, and then rent the plane, it's out of most folks budgets ever since "covid-flatiron" has arrived. So we flying groups struggle to keep the passion alive. I am worried about the future of GA and where our government has put us. Thank you so much for the response! Love this channel and this video was informative!

[@tylergordon696]

The more I look into getting back current, the less I want to do it. Costs are just insane. I am looking at 50k a year between hanger, insurance and annuals. Eek.

[@joecritch143]

The answer to this dilemma is to self insure your hull. Just buy the liability portion and don’t lend anyone your plane.

[@Sports-Jorge]

Dilema with that is then those planes will rot because the next generation of pilots will have no experience in them.

[@jonconner3019]

Problem is that insurance companies don't want to provide liability only.

[@carlosdeleon7620]

lol. the guy in audience is having an awesome nap. lol

[@FlyingNDriving]

It's a 210, it's a Cessna with wheels that move, it's not rocket science

[@glennwatson]

North American insurance was already confusing enough without adding aviation into the mix.

[@jhaedtler]

I hate insurance! One it is illegal, just like forced car insurance! Insurance lobbyists are the most heavily lobbied personal in Washington. And they force people to fly without insurance! They too should be held responsible just like we are!

[@bobh6728]

So if you get in an accident, you want the doctor to ask you if you can pay for the operation. If you can’t, you get discharged. They aren’t forcing you to buy insurance unless you want to fly.

[@justinborysenko3885]

The government does not require insurance on airplanes.

[@hammotox83]

You are not legally required to have insurance in part 91 aviation operations. But if you have an accident uninsured, be ready to be sued by whomever you cause damage to afterwards

[@Mobev1]

I’m worth 22 million and won’t join the pilot world because of the 3 mafias…faa, mechanics, insurance

[@streettosky5983]

Thanks Boeing!

[@johnschreiber1574]

Read your policy, at least twice. For example, a pilot not meeting the open pilot requirements has an incident while taxiing at a distant airport. In the event that I am aware of, immediately after landing the aircraft was fueled, and the incident occurred after refueling. The damage was covered. But for the refueling, there would have been no coverage. In another incident, where the pilot was qualified, the engine threw a connecting rod, destroying the engine. In interviewing the pilot, I realized that he had accidentally hydro-locked the engine on start-up bending the rod. Pilot error, and therefore covered. Accept pilot error as opposed to making mechanical or maintenance excuses if you wish to have coverage.

[@mannyr7206]

Sounds like the insurance companies are giving the norma GA pilot the middle finger.

[@jyoung4805]

Your expert gave some bad advice. If a pilot who meets the open pilot warranty is flying your aircraft and damages it or hurts someone, there is no coverage for him. There is coverage for the owner of the airplane, the insured, but not the pilot flying under the open pilot warranty. To have coverage, the pilot would have to be named as an additional insured. If he is solely flying under the open pilot warranty and he has an accident, the insurance can sue the pilot for the damage to the airplane or the injured person.

[@stevemiller2210]

They’re not hungry because they overcharge

[@Sports-Jorge]

Hahahah non-owned insurance is cheap!?! About $700-1000/year for ASEL for $75k coverage

[@thonatim5321]

Oh no. Christy not wearing her wedding ring.

[@stevemiller2210]

Aviation insurance is like a monopoly the companies control all the All the rates treasures

[@stevefisher2553]

Maybe it's because of the MULTIPLE, DAILY CRASHES!!!!!!

[@cessna177flyer3]

You are partially correct. There are approximately 3 GA accidents in the U.S. per day. But, the accident RATE is at a historic low and has been trending lower the last decade. GA has never been safer. So why the rate increases? Most claims are NOT hull losses/ crashes but include things like a prop striking a taxi light, hail damage, dinging a wingtip pushing an airplane into a hangar door, etc. Because the cost of parts, labor, and everything else has gone up recently, that extra cost is being passed onto us.

[@Mobev1]

Clowns need to organize and create insurance only for simple aviation…not to even include pressurized.

[@Taboftrim]

That insurance dude is salty as hell

[@AirmanBrown]

Just kill General Aviation already at this point lol.

[@Sports-Jorge]

Hahahah non-owned insurance is cheap!?! About $700-1000/year for ASEL for $75k coverage