Axe-Fx III/FM9/FM3 - FRFR vs. Power Amp & Cab - Which Setup Is BEST?

Fractal owners - what is your preference - FRFR? Power Amp & Cab? And what does "FRFR" mean anyway? Check out this video for a little insight!

[@justisjustis]

describing and defining the typical terms used in these scenarios is massively helpful, and usually not done. Thank you!

[@DougBsDigitalDen]

You're very welcome!

[@PhilWilliams3]

Thank you for responding to my comment and publishing this video Doug. Much appreciate your excellent level of detail and found your comments very informative. Keep them coming. Thanks again.

[@giosundance5643]

This video came at the right time because I was ready to buy a power amp for my 2x12 cabinet

[@tdz69]

Great video. Thank you! Lifelong analog guy here. I switched to fractal fm3 few years ago. What I love most is the palette of sounds and the simple setup. I go direct to pa and have a small headrush for my onstage monitor and for others in the band to hear. I do miss the pushing of air but I’ve learned to move on from it. My hearing is more important to me now since it’s been affected by years of playing. I just picked up an Axe3 and in process of finalizing my rack. Heading into IEM territory for the first time so I can further protect my hearing and have more flexibility with monitoring. If eliminating the headrush is very noticeable to me I will put it back in the rig. Growing up with amps and pedals, I wondered if going the route of axefx would be hard. It hasn’t. It’s differmt but the tones are limitless and they sound amazing.

[@SeanMichaelWesley]

Good on you for preserving your hearing and I’m certain your back thanks you, too! Thanks for sharing your experience with the switch!

[@lanceglander7199]

Thanks so much! this is what I've been looking for!

[@scottpeters4401]

I use both sometimes….send an output to my power amp/cab,then send a stereo out to two FRFR’s for FX….wet dry wet…best of both worlds….That’s what is so awesome about the Fractal units,they will fit into your existing rig any way you can imagine it…..

[@justinTime077]

Oh dat ith wits tho awthum about da fwactole uniths??

[@heut4384]

@@justinTime077 Uuuh....huh? What freak'n language is this? Can you please translate? For us, we use English.

[@robfernandez5234]

I’m the contrarian on the cab and amp modeling paradigm. I keep them both on for 1) FOH 2) backline tube amp 3) in ear sends and 4) DAW recording! Without those on I can’t bear the hissy scratchy grating output. Plus I roll off highs in the cab block down to 5500 hertz and use a parametric block to roll off highs and notch 6000, 4000, and dip 400. Got to tell you I’m in tone heaven, AND amp in the room.

[@godzilla964]

I’d say it depends on the skill level of the sound guy. Some live sound guys just want to project a guitar the old fashioned way with a mic. For that use a power amp cabinet combo.

[@clemdog76]

The point of the FRFR that separates it from a standard power amp and cab. The FULL RANGE capability of the FRFR is capable of simulating the physiology of ANY cab. So not just speakers are modeled, but the cabs too. So you can switch from a 4x12 (model) closed to a single 12 open and your flat response gear will sound like you physically switched cabs.

[@ElectronicCity715]

Lovely playing thanks!!

[@DougBsDigitalDen]

Thank you too!

[@tomfaunce]

My current setup is pedal board > Quilter amp > Speaker Cab. Do you think I could just replace the pedal board with an FM9 and run it into my Amp and Cab?

[@SharlsRS]

Why not to try modeler (pre and power amp on, IRS off) ---> powered mixer ---> Guitar Speaker Cab ? I want to try it and see what results can I get. It surely will have less versatility because of the colour of the speakers, but I hope it would be more flexible than the modeler directly to the return of an amp.

[@kylecravens6501]

I use my FM3 with an in ear system at church so I've never had to use it in another context other than recording. If I were out live, wouldn't I be safe to just show up at a gig somewhere and use the club/house stage monitors for my reference? I guess the only problem scenario would be playing somewhere there isn't a fixed/equipped stage (where it's essentially a 'pop up' type gig). I agree, for recording, we've had amazing results just going direct with it.

[@DougBsDigitalDen]

Technically you could do that, but like you said, it might be something like a pop-up, and who knows what gear you'll get. But being able to walk into a gig with just a guitar and FM3, how cool is that!

[@richo144]

what I love about my Powercab 212+ with my FM9 is to use it on FRFR mode but go the "poweramp+speaker" route when I want to

[@justinTime077]

Does that thing really sound like a true cab?

[@ajlsrv5490]

@@justinTime077not at all. They are terrible imo

[@richo144]

​@@justinTime077yes it does with the right EQ, at high volume blows away

[@shredding51]

Someone please tell me how to turn up the volume on USB. I use it as my in and my audio interface as my out to the monitors. The volume isn’t real low, but not near as loud as you would be with running directly into the interface.

[@DougBsDigitalDen]

From the unit go to SETUP -> I/O -> USB/AES. You can adjust the USB levels there.

[@ookookook]

I'm using the HS8s at home with the Axe 3. I'm guessing a pair of K10.2s sounds great too and work for gigs?

[@DougBsDigitalDen]

They sure do!

[@jesseshreds]

@@DougBsDigitalDen Doug do you have a link to where this manual is you reference in the videos? Thanks!

[@justinTime077]

I feel like guitar speakers aren’t driven by modelers the same way that a real amp does. It sounds thin and has EQ issues that this far for me are more trouble than it’s worth. I truly wish i could figure it out, but atm it is weird AF.

[@MoriBun-ch4zp]

Can i use a cab block with frfr?

[@cletusrobinson]

Soooo… would suggest running electric bass through a pair of K12s or? I have a TM16, btw.

[@DougBsDigitalDen]

No, they don't go low enough for bass.

[@grungebox]

I really think the power amp w/gtr cab solves all the complaints about the sound n not feeling like a real amp and miss cabs pushing air. Real guitar cabs are the solution. That being said, sure guitar cabs feel familiar, but as an engineer, running into FRFR is the way to go. I mean, you usually only hear your guitar through the monitors anyway. :)

[@heut4384]

But have you actually tested and played through a power amp w/ guitar cab? If you're an engineer, you probably know, that using FRFR does lose the real amp sound when you turn up the volume. Low volume are always sound beautiful. But when using a FRFR (with loud volume), it would start to sound like a home stereo or PA speaker rather than a real cab. And...the FRFR started getting a lot more Mids and FX and stronger than what we intended. This is just my opinion.

[@george_richman]

⁠@@heut4384 Yeah, I’m currently using a power amp and 4x12 cab on stage. But, I usually run a line to FOH. There are speaker parameters that I’ve tweaked. 😊

[@gregnott7157]

Hi Doug. QSC K 10.2s?? Any issues with them to amplify your Fractal? I just returned one after my FM9 kept sending it into MUTE/ PROTECT Mode. I REALLY like the way it sounded but it was way unreliable. Muting itself at gigs, etc. My presets/ output level is all in check and is not running hot. I went with another brand to replace instead of trying another K 10.2. Any comments? Anyone?

[@DougBsDigitalDen]

Gregg - did you check the firmware version on the K10.2? Version 1.3.3 is supposed to negate al lot of those false overloads. I installed it on mine and have had no dropouts since then.

[@gregnott7157]

Hi Doug. Thx for the reply. Yes, mine shipped with this firmware version. It was just really hit and miss with the QSC. At times it was fine and other sessions it would protect itself my muting/ PM4. I returned it and swapped for a Mackie SRM 210. Sounds every bit as good as the QSC, I preferred the QSC build. My FM9 gain staging was fine, BTW, as the Mackie Input meter confirmed. Curious, do you run Fractal straight into your K 10.2s or do you go through a mixer and then to the speakers? Some have suggested the latter being a better solution...

[@ookookook]

@@gregnott7157 I understood it was the latter if you watch @ 4:40

[@gregnott7157]

@@ookookook ya, I saw the mixer mentioned in my first view but Doug doesn't specifically say he runs it that way, he just says he bought it at the same time and that his band uses it and also for keyboards. Let's assume he does run into the mixer then out to the speakers. I wonder if MOST people do that? I'm certain that I have seen other KZbinrs (Rosh, maybe?) running straight to speaker (s) from a Fractal. What would be the advantage of sending it through a mixer first for the purpose of a monitor? FM9 has the outputs, why not just send Output 1 connection direct to the monitor, copy it to Out 2 internally then send Output 2 connection to FOH? Am I missing something?

[@ookookook]

@@gregnott7157 I don’t think you’re missing anything. I’d go straight to the FRFRs too and if I had to support a bunch of devices then I’d spend another 1500 on the mixer I guess

[@r.llynch4124]

FRFR is really for FAS unlike a power amp and cab you get all the freq FAS offers. Even Cliff states this but sometimes amp/cab is more affordable. If you can afford it go FRFR imo

[@guitarandotherthings6090]

Even Fractal recommends FRFR cabs in the owner's manual.

[@ajlsrv5490]

But they sound best with IRs off and running through a power amp and a guitar cab.

[@XenoTravis]

I can have two instruments and have one go there but also here then the other one over there, back around, then right here? Wwwwwhaaat!

[@JeffHogsten]

Run from the fractal right in the frfr it will stink. You just said it's great going through the board. It's not going right in the frfr. No body says this

[@iyona14granturismogt6gtspo7]

I need a new bulb for my lava lamp.....

[@gitarman666]

Watched the vid and my experience is exactly opposite Axefx3 is the worst, over processed, thin tone I’ve ever had We are about the same age you and I I want to love the AxeFx but I would settle for liking it So if you help me figure out if I’m doing something wrong I’m all ears, God forbid I tell the truth of my tone on the fractal forum they are like a pack of hyenas 0 help there Been a stage and studio musician for over 40 years Been tracking, mixing and mastering for 11 years I have rooms of real tube and SS amps and cabs 42 guitars and basses from early Gibson SGs, Pauls, 335, melody maker, four signature Strats, 3 teles, Ibanez Jems, Charvel model5s from ‘86,87,88 my favorites Carvins, Kiesel Zeus, Parker flys, Godin for synth, Martin and ovation acoustic and some other jazz pieces And get great sounds from all the pieces I’ve collected over my time Always miced my cabs Mesa, Marshall, orange whatever All celestian from many years and models I like my 15ohm Rolas G12-65 from my first JCM 800 4x12 cabs I ever bought in 1980 Full stack Present studio guitar setup Mesa lonestar SM 57 with a Royer 121 Into 2 Neve Shelford Channel strips Mogami cables Apollo x8 interface with Audient asp880 adat Sounds great through my Genelecs, Focals or Yamahas Also I go oxbox from any of 31 heads and combos most recent being Mesa mark VII and a brand new JVM410 to update my road worn workhorse I have jcm800s, 900s, plexis, dsls, dual rectos, dc series combos, JP2c, fenders galore, orange, Vox, Roland, Gallien Krueger, Soldano, Friedman and a few Revv All sound great through the oxbox or miced up Then the axefx3 all digital connection spdif/toslink converter into the Apollo rack light pipe Monitored on several Apollo console stereo setups into powered Genelec 8361a with 7370 subs or alt switch to Focal trio6 actives And it sounds fake, thin, fizzy, clicky at times, no warmth or real tube feel I hate it Can’t get a good sound I can even open a NI guitar pro version and get a better tone So when I say the axe model of say a fender twin doesn’t sound like the real deal I can back it up with direct in room side by side comparison Maybe my ears are spoiled by the amazing tones I get in the studio or on stage Or maybe I’m not setting up the axefx3 correctly Took the cooper carter course to learn it Bought the FC12 and 2 mission pedals but yuck!! Help before I throw this thing into the garage Understand I’m talking guitar amp modeling here not FX they are quite good and routing options all wonderful, thanks Looong post, sorry

[@DougBsDigitalDen]

Wow, you have some KILLER gear! The only thing that I can think of is 1) do you have output set to +4, and 2) do you have the Apolo at 48K; it normally defaults to 44.1 but the Axe-Fx III uses 48K. Hope this helps!

[@furryz666]

@@DougBsDigitalDen Hi Doug, just using my work email so the username and pics are different but thanks for replying, yeah I’ve been collecting a long time lots of gear I always run AxeFx3, ProTools, Studio one, Ableton, Luna and Logic in 48k When I was in Burbank a few years back I asked one of the road techs about the Fractal stuff and she was able to get some stage worthy usable tones but nothing like the live rig I had then but no one had much to contribute to the studio monitor quality questions And since I have residence in Philadelphia and Seattle it’s not as if they could drop by I noticed you had two studios at a time and you really seem happy with the AxeFx so that’s why I was asking if I’m doing something wrong I must be since so many players seem to love their boxes I see them racked at shows for FX and control routing options and only have heard a few used as amp modelers Players are still using real amps in conjunction with the newer tech from what I witness So I guess I’ll try FRFR Friedmans next and if that doesn’t do it I’ll stick with the good old reliable mics, amps and reamp solutions, thanks again I do like your vids

[@Jmc349]

Q about doing output 1 to foh and output 2 to power amp and cab. How do you put output 2 before the cab if the preset has all the effects after the cab block?

[@DougBsDigitalDen]

I'm going to assume that you want effects on out2, right? You'd have to use the "Instrument Split" signal path and set up one path for FOH, and the other path being identical, but with no cab.

[@MoriBun-ch4zp]

Can i use a cab block with frfr?

[@DougBsDigitalDen]

Yes. FRFR is neutral-sounding, which is perfect when using a Cab block