Does Gain Matter in Live Sound?

[@Rubenvalente20]

I agree with you 90% of the video. But the part that gain doesn’t do anything to the signal, and is just like a input fader I really disagree. I’ve tested my self recording the same audio on diferent input levels and then Normalize them to check the diferences and even in the wave you can see that there is a difference, and yes, sound wise, there is too. Of course if you re talking about a 100$ mixing board it doesnt make a difference but with a bit more expensive ones, you start to hear it for sure. No to say that you should hear it and turn it up until it sounds “good”, but there will be a difference in diferent levels.

[@SamueleForte]

I believe what you mentioned around minute 6:00 is inaccurate. The gain control actually comes before the analog-to-digital conversion, which is why it still matters on a digital console. We adjust the gain to optimize the signal for the converters, helping them perform as well as possible. While I agree that increasing gain doesn’t “open up the sound” (since 99% of digital mixer preamps are very transparent and converters dynamic range is usually adequate even without a very loud signal), gain control is still a digital interface for an analog process. Setting the gain 6 dB higher and then reducing the fader by 6 dB isn’t the same as doing the opposite, even without factoring in nonlinear processes like compressors or gates. This difference occurs because one adjustment happens before the ADC (analog-to-digital conversion) and the other after. It may not create a noticeable difference in sound, but it’s not the same process. The same concept applies to output. For instance, cranking your power amps while trimming the signal significantly from the matrix output isn’t equivalent to the reverse, though in this case, your method is more practical.

[@SamueleForte]

This is also another reason (besides the one you already mention in the video) why balancing levels solely with the gain control is generally not an ideal practice.

[@brentonrowland8613]

Totally agree, this is probably the most important reason to set gain correctly - faithful A-D conversion

[@brybigdog]

This is correct. The preamp gain is analog. What he described would be more akin to digital Trim. Trim is just raising or lowering the digital signal. To understand the difference between preamp gain and say fader level we can pretend for a moment that our audio system runs on water. If our audio systems were water based the preamp gain is more like a pump and the fader level is more like a valve. One can increase the amount of water flowing through the system and the other can only decrease it. Of course, this is only an example and not really how it works weather analog or digital.

[@jonmccravy]

Came here to say this.

[@michaelhoffman1576]

You are right on point. Another option to pull things up or down for an improperly sized speaker system is to use a DCA. Just did it the other day, needed to be outputting roughly -30 because the venue speakers were that overpowered. Threw everything on a DCA and pulled that back. Perfect. I can properly gain stage and use all the faders, including the master, in the sweet spot. One thing you missed though is that gain does effect the sound. On a digital console you are adjusting the preamp into the AD converter. You aren't getting the most out of that conversion if your gain is too low. A little bit isn't gonna be that bad, but you are losing detail.

[@stefanb8526]

DCA is even easier to use then Matrix's and nobody talks about them. Analog mixers only had some version of DCA.

[@SamueleForte]

I agree with the last part; however, reducing the signal by 30 dB before the DAC has a similar problem, just in reverse. You’re essentially removing 30 dB of dynamic range from the DAC instead of the ADC.

[@michaelhoffman1576]

@SamueleForte Absolutely which is why it's important to properly size and level the speaker system itself so that you can come out of the board at a good full level. At my gig I used as an example turning the amps down on the PA would have been a way better solution. But sometimes you can't do that (the venue didn't want the amps touched) and at that point it becomes a question of where to take the hit. In general I lean towards taking the hit on the output. Maximizing what I have to work with throughout and taking one hit on the way out. But there is a point where you are losing so much fidelity on the DA side that you end up better off giving up a little bit on the AD side to leave a bit more to be had on DA.

[@FOHGeek]

Yeah... Insufficient gain means insufficient voltage coming into the ADC, resulting in waste of sampling bit depth and downgrading of sound quality.

[@cybershadow81]

If the venue speakers are overpowered by 30 dB, just turn the amps down.

[@leeroysilk]

Just to add, when working with A&H digital mixers, setting input gain to 0.db on the meters equates to -18dbfs in the digital realm as opposed to -18 on the Midas mixers. All the same outcome, just a different approach from the various manufacturers.

[@samsound8510]

I realized that mid broadcast a few weeks back when none of my "-6dB" sources were hitting yellow, lol. No wonder I was fighting the desk so hard up til then...

[@derekrushe]

You're in correct in stating that gain will not open up the sound. Always remember, to get the full resolution from any digital desk, i.e., 48k, your gain stage must be at least -16dbfs RMS. This comes directly from Robert schovill.

[@brendonwood7595]

Your signal has likely been lost in the noise floor long before you run out of resolution so this isn't really a problem for most sources.

[@sukoonsirfsukoon]

-20dbfs RMS. Avid master class of Robert Scoville

[@jeremyshirah8293]

Great video. Only thing i dissagree with is when you said there is no difference between gain kmob gain or fader gain. There is only one gain knob. The fader is a volume or level control. Sure they both can turn a signal up or down. The gain knob adds the voltage a mic needs to be at a proper signal to noise ratio. Imagine the gain knob like its a flow valve for a plumbing system. If a person has a fader way up and the gain too far down the mic wont sound its best because its kinda choked out or restricted. So gain does open up the sound of a mic for fidelity. You did hit the nail on the head about the system volume being up too loud. I think thats where many screw up. Always finish up with metering from the mixer then slowly turn up your amps to an appropriate level. So in a way the mixer itself is like a valve sending flow to the amp.

[@cc11studio]

With all the information on the internet concerning gain, I'm surprised this still needs to be explained to people. Such a fundamental concept. That being said....great video.

[@robertmccracken3763]

I remember being taught the fader at zero the gain up at uni for one particular reason. The lecturer said you'd do that if you're working a venue where the public is more capable of coming up and ruining you're mix. If they start messing with faders then you just set them back to 0 instead of trying to remember where everything was. But that advice feels outdated with most digital systems (might still be useful for analogue). Cause in venues like that, just lock the desk when you're done!

[@ManoChannelTuNelysk]

On the topic of right gain staging before effects, most of my professors have stayed unanimous with the following logic: you can't get the best result out of your fancy plugins, if you cant gain stage right. The idea behind it was that quality plugins tend to be emulations of physical effect units, and since the old physical effects tended to expect the signal coming in at about 0 VU, or as we now call it -18 dBFS, that makes it so the plugins too, are expecting the signal at about that level, and it has to do not just with staying in the limits of your thresholds or whatever, but also about the intended coloration of the sound, which was embedded in the design of the original effect unit.

[@davelongenecker649]

Yep, you are right on, man! Thanks for the video!

[@gregorykusiak5424]

What’s generally worked for me over the years is to align the clip points of the mix master, mix bus EQ (flat) and amplifier inputs. Reduce amplifier sensitivity until it clips when the EQ does, which should clip when the bus driving it does - this gets you darn close to good fader resolution.

[@capriccioespagnole778]

Very helpful as both an overview and a reminder. However since so much of this video is oriented to the sound tech using a digital mixer (other than a brief mention at the beginning about the history of gain staging), it might be valuable to expand the gain plan to encompass those who still use analog. I expect that there are many small venues, bands, and tech teams who, like me, still use analog.

[@capriccioespagnole778]

Oh and another thought/question for the crowd: should powered speakers always be turned up all the way? It seems like a good way to be sure that you aren’t limiting yourself but also seems to be a good way to lose control quickly…. JAT (just a thought)

[@paulcreton4316]

@@capriccioespagnole778 I use a SM58 with 25db of gain and turn up the PA until it feels good to me and with time i have my references so i know if the Pa is loud enough

[@keot777]

My personal steps are (and the way I was taught): 1) Mute the channel 2) Set the Gain to between -18 and -15 dB 3) Unmute the channel and slowly bring the fader up 4) Set the Noise Gate 5) Set the Compressor or Freq Filter 6) EQ I do disagree with what you said that the Gain doesn't change the sound. It may not change it in a way that a person with a booming voice will suddenly sound like Mickey Mouse, but it DOES change the sound enough that you WILL have to re-EQ. If you need to re-EQ, then that means the sound changed.

[@MrProveyron]

isnt it smarted to set the compressor after the eq? eq cuts and boosts will affect general volume, compressing after eq gives you more control, and increase the compressor performance as it will not have to treat frequecies that you will be cut anyways

[@mariosandoval7541]

There isn’t no right or wrong way, I have used both ways depending on the source. Sometimes I want to level the dynamic before I eq.

[@keot777]

@@MrProveyron As a general rule I prefer not to boost anything with the EQ, I rather use the EQ to cut almost exclusively, save a few exceptions, particularly with instruments. The compressor will diminish all frequencies, unless used as a freq filter. When used as a regular compressor, I use it mostly to prevent saturation and distortion. That way I can use the EQ only on those problematic frequencies. The only case on which I may use the compressor after the EQ would be when using it as a freq filter, to remove the "SS" for example. That's at least the way I use and view things, not saying my way is the only correct one 😅

[@JoshMackey-pn4fv]

One part of gain staging I never hear people talk enough about is the gain nob on the wireless mic receiver or instrument and/or instrument Amp? Keyboard player has a volume nob? Bass Amp has a master volume nob? Guitarist has a volume nob on his guitar? At what point and how to set THOSE levels???

[@ProduccionesSOMA]

keyboard all the way up, cause they always turn it up mid-performance. Bass and guitar amp you should let the musicians be confortable with their volume, if it’s a small venue it’s better to keep it low and send it on monitors, if it’s a bigger stage as loud as they want/need

[@ProduccionesSOMA]

they should always be confortable in monitors, otherwise they’ll keep turning it up ruining your gainstaging

[@samsound8510]

A guitar volume knob is really part of the player's tonal pallette. Many players modulate it to achieve specific tones. Others just leave it wide open when playing. As long as you get a line check with it wide open, you'll be good. I don't chase guitar knobs with my preamp gain - if needed I use the fader.

[@SamueleForte]

in my digital guitar pedalboard the volume knob is basically a trim (like an audio inferface monitor knob), so basically if you set proper gainstaging while creating patches you can leave it at max.

[@8bitWave]

So in my experience, the answer really varies. Ideally the musicians would set their volume and then if they needed more of themselves later in the show they would ask the engineer for more monitor signal and not turn up on their own as that would affect not only the gain stage, but any FX or Dynamics processing down the line since it bascially is the same as the vocal example listed in the video. While some guitarists and bassists have a specific sound they are going for based on their amp, depending on the venue and set up, it is ludicrous to expect the majority of the sound to come out of their amp, therefore, same concept as what someone mentioned earlier and let the system do the work and the amps for the musicians to feel good on stage. A bass amp turned up all the way will be blasting to try and keep up with a pair of subs at the front of the stage or whatever. It would produce a more even sound and distribute lows better across the audience then having them turn up on stage so much that you are just introducing mud from the FOH system. Let alone timing issues with delay if you want to really start to get into the weeds about it. TL;DR Let the musicians be at a comfy level and ask them to just communicate with the engineer if they need more in the monitors and ask them not to turn up if avoidable and to communicate if they need to do so.

[@nicorudie]

So if I have wireless mics like ULXD, should I have the receiver on line or mic level? I always use line level but I could be wrong.

[@FOHGeek]

Line level is correct. The "mic level" mode is only for compatibility with some consumer-grade equipment (e.g. karaoke machines, outdoor battery-powered speakers) which have limited gain adjusment capability and thus cannot accept line-level signal from its mic port without clipping.

[@francescomarchisotti]

I agree with everything you said, except that the gain gain is the same as the fader gain. Gain gain is always (as far as I know) the gain of the analog preamp _before_ the AD converter: it’s not, by definition, a linear kind of gain, while fader gain is linear, meaning it doesn’t introduce any kind of harmonic content into the signal. That said, I don’t think that on any digital mixer this is in any way relevant: what makes the preamp introduce harmonics or change the sound is not the amount of gain you introduce, but the level the signal comes in at. If I have a low signal and I need lots of gain to get it to -18dBFS it will sound exactly the same (especially in the context of a live mix) as if the same signal was much louder and I needed little to no gain to get it to my target This is all to advocate that the gain should be set with the meters and with a specific target in mind, and not in any other way, as you will load the preamps differently from channel to channel and from night to night, introducing the potential to make them sound slightly different every time (of course these preamps are made to be as linear as possible, they’re not at all like the preamp on a studio console that introduce lots of coloration, so I’m sure that everything I said in real life is much less exaggerated than I made it out to be)

[@ragtag8226]

I was going to say something very similar as I'm currently learning the specifics of an older (early 2000's) Tascam DM4800 digital mixer and the manual explicitly delineates gain applied to the analog input section prior to A/D conversion from the digital "trim" that happens just after the conversion. In essence, I can drive the analog preamp into saturation with the gain knob (without clipping the A/D converters) and still lower the digital gain back to -16dbfs RMS before the signal hits my channel, using digital trim. However, I have no experience with modern digital mixers and how their design might differ, but I have to assume they follow this same logic unless it's uncommon to include a digital trim function. I think of it as analogous to a digital interface with my DAW, where I can take I'm a hot signal but "clip gain" the recording down before the signal hits, say an analog-modeled plugin for example.

[@francescomarchisotti]

@ Personally, I’ve never worked with a modern mixer with a digital trim. I know they exist, but I think they might be included only on higher end models (someone please correct me if I’m wrong). But in my opinion it’s not worth chasing the preamp saturation on these mixers anyway, as the preamps are cheap-ish and I just risk clipping the converter (which nobody wants). If it’s present then the digital trim serves only the purpose of getting the fader to sit around the 0 mark, not correcting any overgaining of the signal in input. Of course in the studio, with higher end or even boutique preamps, it’s a whole different story.

[@OffshoreAudio]

Hey thanks for the comment. You're right I could have been a little clearer when talking about the preamp gain being before the converter so they're not exactly the same. As I'm sure you gathered though, the main point was to advocate for proper gain staging and show people I do it, and justify why I do it that way. If I'd written all of the above then a beginner would simply give up, but I do think it's important and I should've mentioned preamp gain vs digital gain. So I hope you'll forgive my technical oversight :)

[@patrickpetersrit7106]

@@OffshoreAudio There can be some different behaviour with digital mixers regarding gain and trim functions, especially when using stage boxes. For example, if you have a single DL32 and connect two M32 mixers, or daisy chain two DL32's to a single network cable to a M32 and then daisy chain a second M32. In the Midas ecosystem (and I believe this applies to other brands as well), only one mixer can control the gain of the preamp in the stage boxes, which is selectable in the settings (headamp control). The other mixers will switch to digital trim, using the gain knob to control it. Sounds logic when you think about it, but can be a real hussle in the field when running such setups, and can get really complex real fast, not resulting in the gain staging you prefer. You can simulate this behaviour using M32 Edit. Switch inputs in the routing screen (local to AES50A and back) and watch what happens to the channel input section. It will change between gain and trim, while also changing the scale of the control. With actual gear, when set to AES50, the trim is displayed. As soon as you connect a stage box to the mixer, the mixer will enable headamp control and change the control to gain. Immediatly after disconnect, the mixer will change back to trim.

[@MrNGm]

I've had a similar experience with an M32R connecting to a stage box (Midas DL16), and daisy chained through the DL16's AES50B port to a Behringer SD8 on the AES50A port. All kinds of controls were lost on the SD8, such as gain (it went into trim mode) and 48V switchability. Really frustrating.

[@alexandrebologna2819]

What about gain compression? Is something that just affects analog circuits or works with digital mixers as well?

[@Live-Interaction-832]

So most times when am at an event I mute all the I/O first and then I set my gain first making sure it's hitting the 18-20dbfs and that's when I set where my Bus fader and Channel sends faders level after... This helps me to get the desirable sound and optimize my speakers 🔊

[@josephdeery4931]

Hi I really like your shows I am non sighted how can I get the best gain if if you can not see the meetres?? Thank you very much

[@audibletapehiss3764]

Would it be possible to attach several very small pieces of tape alongside your gain knob or fader, to represent landmark levels, such as -18db and 0db? I suppose this would require some assistance to set up, but once it's done, it might give you what you need. Cheers and best of luck in your mixing.

[@josephdeery4931]

Now that is a great idea I use a few analogue desks and certainly a little mark would really help thank you for the suggestion as I said I really enjoy your shows and have learned so much thank you

[@audibletapehiss3764]

@@josephdeery4931 Glad I could help. Just to let you know, I'm not the guy who made this video, I just saw your comment and the tape idea occurred to me. I really hope it works out for you.

[@paulcreton4316]

Do it by ears ! -18db is not a proper way to think about it ! Put your faders at 0db and turn up the gain until it feels good to you (eventually it will land around that gain) If you think about numbers and meters too much it will ruin you mixes, its all about earing not seeing ;)

[@Ozoingo2]

Feel like anyone that says gain doesnt affect the sound of a mic hasnt done livestreams with lapels and/or lecterns. Interested to hear if people still try to get them to -18dbfs (at actual talking distance) or if you can settle on lower in that case. From my experience the difference between a 22db microflex and a 35db microflex is quite big, especially when it comes to how distance affects level output.

[@StereoAnthony]

This is a well timed video for me. I've been doing live sound for over 10 yrs, and this year invested in a number of Meyer Sound speakers. I always thought I was gain staging properly, and never even pushed my older analog speakers into limit, let alone clipping. To my surprise and embarrassment, I found my Meyer speakers and subs starting to clip, when in my mind they were only getting half the signal possible. Of course this wasn't the case. Meyer input sensitivity maxes out +2.2 dbu (-16), which of course means I was sending it too much signal. I was extremely confused by this. I've spent years watching others and also myself, driving Midas consoles up as high as -6 and never seeing a limit light or clipping happening with my speakers. I've come to discover that most speakers input sensitivity are set at 0 dbu (-18) and can't for the life of me understand why consoles are capable of pushing out +20dbu when this is the case. Presonus Studio live consoles output +26! What's the point of this or even having 18db of headroom on the master if most amps and powered speakers will already be well into clipping by that point?

[@OffshoreAudio]

I'm glad it was well timed. Thanks for the comment, it's made me think about some of the meyer systems that I work on and that I should take a look. I've also been driving a midas quite hot into a processor but the processor has like 30db of headroom. I always found that a bit excessive but this makes sense. I think I've got a bit of research to do!

[@StereoAnthony]

@@OffshoreAudioIve been trying to figure this out myself, and cant find any answers. One thing in my case is that I dont have a processor. I go straight out of the board into the speakers. I imagine having will help me monitor my levels better. I understand the idea of having that much headroom on channels, but what is the point of that much head room on the master, if speakers max out at +4?

[@brendonwood7595]

The reason why is the "most" that you qualified your statement with. Far better to have that level available and not need it than to need it and not have it available.

[@StereoAnthony]

@@brendonwood7595 Of course it makes sense to have that much headroom on the master, but if the vast majority of amps and speakers max out at +4, what's the point in having it available? It makes more sense to me to have +4 represented at the clipping point. At least then you have a better metering idea of how much headroom you actually have.

[@MrBoogiee]

Every once in a while I run into a speaker (person) that simply doesn't have enough natural volume. If I then gain the microphone to a level such that the channel runs at -18dB I run into feedback issues. How would you tackle this? Another thing is that when all instruments are gained to -18dB, I see that some instruments need to be at a fader level -40dB for example. Would it then not be better to change those instruments to a lower gain level such that all channels are around fader level 0 so you have the highest resolution for all instruments?

[@paulcreton4316]

you should put your fader at 0db before turning up the gain. That way you have more control on your faders because of the logarithmic scale. Having a fader at -40 is not the way to go you will have a harder time mixing. The same thing apply to your other issue and you should also use an 31 band EQ on your PA to eliminate the problematic frequencies

[@MrNGm]

If the speaker doesn't have enough volume, it's usually a lack of instruction for the speaker on how to position the microphone properly. People that have soft voices can still be picked up pretty good if the microphone is close enough to their mouth. Of course, the gain levels will differ between someone who shouts into a microphone at close range versus someone who more or less mumbles at the same distance. An approach for loud instruments is to assign them to a subgroup (that sends to main) and have the subgroup fader at a lower level, such that you can mix the instruments at a higher resolution, while still keeping overall volume at an acceptable level. You could roughly set the subgroup to -20dB and raise the instrument fader to -20dB to have more control over the mix of the particular loud instruments. I'm not sure why some commenters think setting faders at 0dB before setting gain is a good idea. If you only focus on the faders (that usually end up in the main mix), you'll miss a proper signal level for, as the video also mentions, monitoring, recording outputs, etc. It's easier to attenuate a signal later on in the chain (e.g. assigning to subgroup and set the subgroup fader to a lower output level before going to the main mix) than to amplify an already weak signal. If your faders are set to 0dB (for example on the Midas M32R in the video), that means you'll have at most 10dB of amplification left. When you've set gain properly, and end up at -30dB on the fader, you'll have 40dB of headroom to play with!

[@Jeremy_Kinsey]

The only addition I would add is to check the level coming into the mixer at the device itself. Having a healthy signal before hitting the mixer is important for gain staging. If you have a wireless mic, let's say a G-50, and the output setting is switched on "mic level", the signal will be different than the "line level" for example, and the gain amount at the board will differ as well. The same logic applies to synths. Old analog synths will have a sweet spot on the output that maximizes signal and minimizes the noise, if you adjust it just right. Hitting the board with a cleaner signal pays off as well, unless of course you are going for that shitty garage band sound. "Art is art", right?

[@charlesryan8476]

Am I the only one that usually sets gain to where they peak right before yellow or barely touching yellow? For example, on a Digico I gain at around -12. Seems to work well for me. I don’t like running sources past green, maybe transients hitting yellow but not past that.

[@Hipyon]

The preamp gain control Is the only gain control and important that it is set right The rest of the faders And amplifier input are all attenuators if the input gain is not set right the function of the EQ will be affected I'm only talking about analog mixes mixes are actually suming amplifier so when two inputs or more are the same pitch and in phase they will sum and the level will increase so I always go for below 0db -3/-7db depending on the sourc this applies to a band with lots of sources a solo artist guitar vocals 0db Is fine i've often thought when you understand a mixer is not a mixer but suming amplifier gain staging Will become easier and sudden increases in level explained

[@AlecSpence]

Er, no. The rest of the faders can add up to 10dB of gain as well as attenuating. the signal. The same goes for EQ, dynamics, FX - they can all add positive or negative gain to the signal.

[@Hipyon]

@ yeah I'm wrong I've just been looking at schematics And the big mixes do you have a gain after the fader and before the suming amp but the fader is wired as an input accumulator and the amplifier has a fixed gain The input amp gain control is the only control that actually adjusts the gain of the amplifier smaller mixes don't have the extra amp 😊 and the video Is right on I have seen guys mixing on the gain Controls very difficult when you've got the fader around zero dB you've got that subtle Control you need to make a mix

[@Hipyon]

@@AlecSpence i'm only talking analog mixes digital mixes don't sum to infinity and the Eq Doesn't filter to infinity analog mixers do 😊 Only in humour

[@forcefullsari7523]

What's your favorite console for live event?

[@LeChapeauMusic]

People please remember that clipping damages your speakers. I see professional engineers constantly hitting the reds on everything and it really pisses me off. Also I have to agree that faders to zero isn't the best option, and in my personal experience, having worked in places where musicians on stage can hear the PA, it's better to set monitor levels with the PA out muted, cause that way they end up wanting their monitoring levels much quieter!

[@peterzee]

What is the "matrix" output?

[@jameswilkinson6530]

Meters baby. Thought this was rule 101.

[@jthunderbass1]

Input gain is like engine oil in your car. If you don’t have enough, the car won’t work right.

[@nomad100hd]

Personally I wouldn't turn up my power amps all the way. You said speakers so I assume you're talking about self powered speakers.

[@paulcreton4316]

This is so not the way to setup gain in a live situation In studio your way of doing it is good but in live you should put all you faders a 0db and then turn up the gain to adjust the balance You should almost mix with gain during sound Check and solo are almost never needed in live sound ;)

[@paulcreton4316]

And you should turn your system to have a confortable volume with 25db of gain on a SM58