David Goggins, Suffering, and the Pursuit of Values

[@TheImperatorKnight]

What Tristen said from 31:00 and especially after 33:08 was really eye-opening to me. I constantly need to push myself more, to be more productive and produce more and more, at a higher quality as well. But obviously that's unsustainable. Last year I had to step back a little because of the burnout, and feel guilty for doing so, burning me out even more! But I push through the burnout regardless as failure is not an option. I need to read more on Objectivism I think...

[@nikos_1717]

I like the nuance Tristan introduced. Only you can now whether pushing through the burnout is worth it. It might be, if what's you're after is very important. Let's say in the example of his friend...if a law career is your dream, burnout might be a sign you need to slow down a bit, or maybe even ask for help by a mental health professional. Or it might mean you're after something you don't really want as something YOURS, like status etc. In that case to 'goggins it out' wouldn't be a great idea.

[@MrMasoric]

I can't wait to share this with my 17 year old son who is enamored with Goggins!

[@nikos_1717]

Sounds great!

[@mrjvc]

Great discussion! I'll just add some quotes I like from David Lynch on this subject: "It's good for the artist to understand conflict and stress. Those things can give you ideas. But I guarantee you, if you have enough stress, you won't be able to create. And if you have enough conflict, it will just get in the way of your creativity. You can understand conflict, but you don't have to live in it." “The more the artist is suffering, the less creative he is going to be. It’s less likely that he is going to enjoy his work and less likely that he will be able to do really good work.” For me it's great to hear an accomplished artist push back on the errant idea that an artist needs to suffer or starve in order to create great art.

[@nikos_1717]

How timely re. David Lynch this proved to be!

[@christiangrosjean2980]

RIP

[@debbieurosevic3578]

Prof Nikos is the best... .listening to him is a treat

[@jonathanbauer2988]

Has to be one of my favorite people to listen to ever on this channel

[@nikos_1717]

Aww, many thanks!

[@ExistenceUniversity]

Not a prof. That is a title. Nikos is not a Prof.

[@christiangrosjean2980]

@@ExistenceUniversitytrue but so is doctor, yet people colloquially call some people doc. So prof is kinda like that rigt?

[@ExistenceUniversity]

@christiangrosjean2980 who does this?

[@LaidBackPedalPusher]

Thank goodness for reason. It always relieves suffering.

[@WS-vk5tg]

An old Ann Landers article ::The definition of maturity..Doing what has to be done, when it has to be done, whether you want to or not.

[@gillesandfio8440]

When I go to the gym, I consciously avoid suffering. I aim to reach a metabolic rate that makes me sweat, and I get pleasure seeing my t-shirt getting wet with sweat. I aim to cause muscular burn, in contrast to pain which I avoid like the plague. Likewise when I go on a hash (a 10-20 km long hike in the local hills), I bring along my dog and together we visit many natural and archaeological sights (here in Central Italy). I consciously avoid suffering and I aim to and often accomplish pleasure in a very pure form. It keeps these hobbies alive.

[@WillfulThinker]

“Why do they always teach us that it's easy and evil to do what we want and that we need discipline to restrain ourselves? It's the hardest thing in the world--to do what we want. And it takes the greatest kind of courage. I mean, what we really want.” --Rand

[@Triple_J.1]

What book, chapter or interview was this from?

[@Draco-Dynamics]

You guys are awesome! We love you. Keep up Gods good work.

[@edbonz2]

Thank you. $

[@johngleue]

Goggins and the other guy literally said that they agree with the interpretation of that study that said that if you know and understand why something is good for you, then it doesn't expand your brain or whatever. This goes against pursuing firsthanded values altogether. I don't get how anyone could read into what they're saying positively. They're saying sacrifice is good in a materialistic way. They interpret these studies in a way that says going against what you really want is healthy for you. It honestly sounds like a contradictory argument because if you want to be healthy, then according to the study, you should force yourself to be unhealthy, and that will make you healthy.

[@nikos_1717]

The study didn't say what you're implying here. Of course you understand that the difficult thing is good for you, and this is why you do it. The study says that if it becomes easy then it doesn't have the brain benefits a tougher pursuit has.

[@johngleue]

@nikos_1717 Apologies, I guess I misunderstood. It sounded like they're saying if it hurts, then it's automatically good, and if you know the action taken is good, then it doesn't have the same benefits because you'll actually want to take the action. So I read it as them being against any real purpose beyond putting yourself through hell for the sake of these benefits that you get from the suffering. It sounds duty driven.

[@drixcel2741]

@@nikos_1717 At 6:45 it really seems like it's implying that enjoyment of an achievement - even of one that still difficult for you, like in the example Huberman gives: "...OR if you do it the next day AND enjoy it") - is counter productive. Highly likely that in the study there's more nuance to this, but what is being communicated here is a "practical" basis for the blank, stoic rejection of enjoyment of values

[@drixcel2741]

Or in other words, as it's being implied that difficult = unpleasant and vice versa (as per the 6:45 example), a benevolent interpretation of this like "if it becomes easy then it doesn't have the brain benefits a tougher pursuit has" still concedes that a person of highest productive achievement would, by definition, never enjoy their efforts

[@gorazionelson]

For me, any suffering, troubles and endeavors have a sense only if they help me t achieve my eudaimonia. This Aristotelian concept is better then happiness, as well as flourishing of the life is more profound concept. Both of them include in themselves difficult challenges to live a life your want and deliberately chosen.

[@nikos_1717]

Agreed. I like also Rand's definition of happiness that goes beyond the momentary. It's 'a succesful' state of being, close to what I understand as eduaomonia.

[@gorazionelson]

@ “successful state of being” is a powerful definition! It’s obvious that success is a state of affaire when desirable by individual things are happened according to his ideas. The measure of success is always egoistic (individualistic), as well as happiness/flourishing/ eudaimonia. I think that people take suffering as a principle of being because of the lack of the free will to work on their own world view, self-understanding and self-development. We don’t posses an innate reason , we have juts its potential (as a zip-file). To be a healthy “fully born” human we must unpack that potential and develop ot to the proper level. It’s our responsibility what ideas to accept.

[@brrradley1]

I think it’s very important to be on guard here for second hand values. Make sure the values are yours and make you happy; it’s got to be ‘worth it’. I’m mixed about Goggins, I think some level of his self esteem is based on comparison with others.

[@nikos_1717]

I do agree with the first part. I don't think Goggins is second-handed though. See for example how whenever he tells a story about a long distance race, he doesn't mention whether he finished first, which he sometimes did.

[@brrradley1]

@ yes that’s true, and it’s hard to make a judgment because he’s such a force. I remember reading in his book he was ‘taking souls’ meaning beating others. Is this a form of second hand values or is it just a measurement of achievement? It’s tricky.

[@frankrockefeller3038]

Happiness in mind, health in body and their mutual interaction and interplay. Suffering in Eastern thought is an effect and logical consequence of chasing illusions. Discipline in chasing illusions, rather than shedding illusions, intensifies resentment and reveals one's discontent with the world making the furthering of happiness and health illusive. Religious notions of suffering (dualistic) and sin (dichotomous) are imbued in Man's cultures and traditions. Nature is both passive (dualistic) and life/death active (dichotomous). Man has the freedom to dampen and navigate these extremes in peaceful exchange and logical achievement and avoid poverty, demoralization as value loss, discontent as emptiness, disillusionment......We engage in sports as purposeful-play - the dualities of team interactions with a worthy 'dichotomous' opponent that captures real interactions with the world with personal and team achievements. Taking ice baths is highly dichotomous - life-death - and dangerous. Playing video games as an innocent pastime is certainly more dualistic and passive.

[@ExistenceUniversity]

Inb4 Huberman argues that suffering by believing in God despite not really believing, makes your AmCC grow bigger and you will be healther despite your suffering...

[@Draco-Dynamics]

Christ existed so that he could endure the suffering of mankind. He was the original thinker. He came to show us the way to rise above suffering.

[@peggyfranzen6159]

I like the character of Hank Rearden in " Atlas Shrugged " That's real. Middle class real.! Go farm or manufacture!

[@christiangrosjean2980]

I respect and admire goggins. Highly motivated. But unguided motivation can be just moving a million miles. But in the wrong direction lol

[@FreeToBe-gr8]

Man, y’all need to do one on Andrew Tate

[@nikos_1717]

Meh, what for?

[@patrickgrengs7594]

Goggins is seriously overrated... a self-inflated loud-mouth who appeals to low-level achievers.

[@JohnSmith-bs9ym]

After reading his biography, I think he's the Forest Gump of our time. His IQ is definitely in the 90s or even 80s. It's crazy the amount of mental tasks he just can't ever do. Though it can't be said that he hasn't tried his hardest.

[@ExistenceUniversity]

Of goggin' (puts a picture of a jogger)

[@EvenFlow406]

That's Goggins.

[@ExistenceUniversity]

Lol did you change the title because I teased you? 😂

[@ExistenceUniversity]

3:26 Nikos... really? Suffer = doing things that are hard? You think that's what people mean when they say "suffering"? Do you know what this actually is?? This is you projecting onto others. You either are gaslighting/not believing people when they say they are suffering, or you are projecting your feelings of suffering when you do something (probably improperly). Fundamentally, this simple means that this entire conversation exists ONLY in Nikos' head. 42:42 of Nikos' imagination run wild...again...

[@Stefan-u5w]

I dont't think Rand thought that someone with a bad childhood could be a hero

[@nikos_1717]

Why? She believed in free will, and the possibility of one turning their life around.

[@Stefan-u5w]

​@@nikos_1717 because of Branden

[@jhljhl6964]

To live is to suffer. Pain is natural, while chasing happiness is like chasing a phantom through the desert.

[@BiH1980Sana]

I'm 14 and this is deep.

[@nikos_1717]

Then why live? Or why have children, if life is predominantly about suffering?

[@ExistenceUniversity]

Yesterday I was busy and I stopped by just to make fun of the Joggin Goggin thumbnail. I just stopped to watch your video for real... Maybe delete this one quickly... You realize this dude is basically making Christian sacrifice a life goal, right? And he is 100% wrong about neuroscience as well!! Serious, guys, Harry, James, Nikos, Call me. I don't want to be on your show, thats gross, but call me and ask if its ok because you are really out here making fools of yourselves on the daily. I'll let you know if your science is good first!!

[@ExistenceUniversity]

5:00 Neuroscientist TRIGGERED!!!!! YOU WAT MATE? This will literally not make sense to anyone else in this community but to say of the [anterior mid-cingulate cortex] that "thats a noun, thats a name, that doesn't mean anything" is outrageous. Everything he is saying is just plainly wrong. It's the area in control of attention, focus, emotion, decision-making, and impulse control. It's essential you. So he is arguing from according to him "new things he is JUST learning" that that area grows bigger when.... STOP!! NOPE!! Not how we work in Neuroscience. Whose brain? What task? What computer imaging software? Blood flow? No no no! "This area of the brain grew" No! You have a tumor or what? Your focus brain region doesn't grow because you don't want to focus lol. Huberman is a conman. You bought what he was selling

[@ExistenceUniversity]

6:49 NO!!!!!!! HOW IS HE MEASURING BRAIN SIZE DAILY??????? YOU KNOW WE HAVE TO DISSECT YOU TO KNOW RIGHT??????

[@jamesmcgilcrest4948]

David Goggins hate's himself as do most of these athletes and body builders

[@terraflow__bryanburdo4547]

As a serious athlete and coach for over 50 years, I find little value in 90% of what he espouses. Pain is of value, mainly as feedback to avoid future suffering. With mastery, achievement continues with less suffering and more enjoyment.

[@jamesmcgilcrest4948]

@@terraflow__bryanburdo4547 i would rather stick to a meat based diet with fruit and walk in the woods i don't need to do all that nonsense people in the gym do they are wasting their lives

[@terraflow__bryanburdo4547]

@jamesmcgilcrest4948 I eat mostly raw meat, fish eggs and dairy, but I also love movement of any kind and crazy adventures! Just keep it fun and always learning something new.

[@nikos_1717]

This is an unfounded and unjust evaluation.

[@terraflow__bryanburdo4547]

@nikos_1717 listen to his interviews when he discusses his dad