Azor Ahai & Paul Atreides: The False Prophets of ASOIAF

George RR Martin writes complicated characters. His heroes aren't perfect, and his villains aren't Dark Lord tropes (usually). So should we believe that Azor Ahai, or The Prince that was Promised, is truly this magical prophesied hero who will come to save the world? I think it will be more complicated than that - Azor Ahai isn't a perfect person, and neither is Jon Snow or Daenerys Targaryen. Or Paul Atreides, who is another prophesied hero who does some extremely questionable things. This video looks at the prophecies of Dune and ASOIAF, how Frank Herbert might have inspired GRRM, and why we can't take every bit of ASOIAF lore at face value. Also, I reintroduce the Bloodraven bloodline theory and his potential belief that Azor Ahai would come from Aegon V/Egg.
Music by Quest Master questmaster.bandcamp.com/albu...
Art credits: docs.google.com/document/d/e/...
Thumbnail images:
Jon Snow Azor Ahai by Ofmissing/Noah mummer.tumblr.com/post/643236...
Dany riding Drogon by Enrique Corominas / enriquecorominas
Learn more about:
GRRM's earlier stories en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamso...
GRRM on Tolkien interview • George R.R. Martin on ...
GRRM on Tolkien www.ign.com/articles/2019/05/...
GRRM NUTUV interview • Flashback Friday - Geo...
GRRM RE: Dance of the Dragons 2.0 www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/...
GRRM RE: DUNE books grrm.livejournal.com/540395.h...
Contact: [e-mail]
Twitter: / crusaderchris89
Timestamps:
0:00 GRRM's inspirations
2:56 Starks, Atreides, spice, & shade
4:55 Jon Snow & Paul Atreides
8:20 Daenerys & Paul Atreides
10:28 Prophesied messiahs
17:59 Bloodline manipulation
#asoiaf #gameofthrones #houseofthedragon

[@InfiniteStyler]

People who are trying to pit Tolkien and Martin against each other clearly don't understand either writer or literature at all.

[@CrusaderChris]

True, they’re quite different in their approach and philosophies about writing. Martin loves Tolkien, and credits him as foundational to all modern fantasy. Rather than one being better than the other, both are legends and can be appreciated together.

[@itstayna_abreu]

Martin is the first to put him against Tolkien

[@rawrbeez6625]

@@itstayna_abreuno he doesn’t. He points out the contrast in their writing styles, he does not pit them against each other. He plays with a lot of the tropes of modern fantasy that were first laid down by Tolkien or at least made their way into the zeitgeist via Tolkien. By virtue of that alone Martins work is building on the foundation Tolkien laid. Because to contrast something you are first analyzing it and breaking it down to see it’s parts. Martin has proclaimed his love of Tolkien and it’s foundational nature to his works for decades.

[@Ashbrash1998]

@@itstayna_abreuNot really, he may have different views and opinions on certai stuff, but he never said his work was better or that Tolkein's was bad. Tolkein likes his stories to go a certain way and grrm likes his a certain way. It's different tastes about fantasy which is why their books are so different.

[@bm6lgg]

@@rawrbeez6625Your profile picture betrays your eloquent writing. I see, clever disguise to disorient foes.

[@mapletree3434]

I was exposed to Dune way before ASOIF, but when I watched the show, I thought, "Hey, Ned is non-galactic Leto!"

[@Naldinho456]

Leto was a better ned

[@ashleightompkins3200]

Tolkien was annoyed by the lack of magic in Shakespeare so he created Ents. Martin was annoyed by the uses of magic in Tolkien so he made people come back 'wrong'.

[@lloydgush]

Martin was pissed that tolkien ended his series, so he's gonna follow on Herbert's footsteps.

[@shinken6636]

he never said he was annoyed, playing around with magic being unstable is common in a lot of works, like Stephen Kings

[@christopherlyons5900]

A Midsummer Night's Dream doesn't have magic? The Tempest doesn't have magic? I'm sure there are other instances, but I'll worry about that later. I just checked, and Tolkien didn't like Shakespeare's use of elves--not noble and terrible enough--but Tolkien later said he regretted calling the beings he referred to elves, elves. Tolkien is Noblebright--Good and Evil very clearly delineated, there is a Supreme Being who cares about us, and Good has to win, though things will seem very dark at times. GRRM is Grimdark--Good and Evil are intermingled, it can be hard to know one from the other, there may be gods, they may somewhat care what happens on earth, but they are more like chessmasters moving pieces on a board in a game no mortal can ever understand. Tolkien wasn't mainly reacting against Shakespeare, and I don't think GRRM was rebelling against Tolkien, so much as looking for a different approach--more influenced by Dune, which Tolkien expressed dislike for. And more by ancient and medieval history (and some mythicized history, like Atlantis) than old heroic epics. GRRM is a better worldbuilder. Tolkien a better writer. (Well, that's subjective, but it's a fact Tolkien finished his books).

[@ashleightompkins3200]

@@christopherlyons5900 To be fair, I was making more of a joke and a casual observation. I’m a fan of all three writers, though some definitely more than others (I appreciate Tolkien’s contributions to writing but I think his work is really long winded and kind of boring at times, especially towards the end of the last book).

[@christopherlyons5900]

@@ashleightompkins3200 The thing about online humor is, it's often pretty hard to detect, since I hope nobody's being 100% serious about this shit. I think 'longwinded' is a fair enough description of Tolkien, but it basically defines GRRM. There's over twice as many words in F&I, and it's two books away from completion--odds are, if he finished the last one, it'd be longer than the entire LOTR trilogy. I read LOTR twice--as a kid. The Hobbit as well, and I think I made it twice through the Silmarillion. I'm by no means a Tolkien superfan. I disliked the Peter Jackson films. I fell mad in love with GoT. And still love it, ending and all. But when I started reading A Game of Thrones, I made it through like two chapters, and gave up. I just don't think he's got much of a prose style. And wherever the books differ from the series, I usually prefer the latter. Man needs an editor. Stat. I do agree with him with regards to moral ambiguity, long as he's not saying there is no such thing as right and wrong, which I don't believe he is.

[@rhaenyraitargaryen6360]

What I love about these prophecies about the savior in Asoiaf is that Jon and Dany are not trying to fulfill it. They are just doing it willingly and most of the time, they are not even aware of the prophecy's existence.

[@ACinemafanatic]

And Cersei tries to prevent it but ends up fulfilling it most of the time due to her paranoia and her vindictive nature.

[@stephengrant4841]

You're spot on for a lot of this except one specific thing in Dune. The Lisan al Gaib among the Fremen isn't the same as the Kwisatz Haderach of the Bene Gesserit. They are, effectively, two separate prophecies (although calling the KH a prophecy isn't a good term, since it's more like a scheme). Paul is certainly the KH, but he deceives the Fremen (and they deceive themselves) into thinking he is the Lisan al Gaib, specifically so he can use them for revenge and to get onto the Imperial throne. The Bene Gesserit planted the Lisan al Gaib prophecy among old Fremen so that one day somebody like Paul could manipulate them en masse if need be, though they didn't anticipate that their Kwisatz Haderach would be the one to do it.

[@thalmoragent9344]

Well... I dunno, is it deception? He technically is the one who ultimately pushed them into achieving freedom for Arrakis, no? Surely the KH and Lisan Al Gaib match one another. Multiple aspects of the same entity Haven't read the books so, sorry if I'm sounding ignorant.

[@stephengrant4841]

@@thalmoragent9344 they’re very much different things.

[@janwouter5215]

​@@stephengrant4841 Paul is both though, the prophecy of the Fremen came true. Even if it was "false" it became true when Paul made it happen.

[@stephengrant4841]

@@janwouter5215 that doesn't mean he's an actual messiah and their religion is true. Just because he makes it come true (again, so he can manipulate and use them) doesn't mean its true. He had the knowledge and skills required to basically emulate it.

[@josephphelan2725]

@@stephengrant4841except that this is just false if one reads the book (and it’s pretty clear in the movies too). Paul is not actively trying to fulfill the prophecy so that the Fremen will follow him. He is not a schemer. At most, he is acting according to how he sees things going in his prescient visions. But the prophecy keeps being fulfilled, naturally, in his wake. Dune shows us that many things can be true at once. Yes, the prophecy itself and certain aspects of the Fremen religion were invented by the Bene Gesserit. And yet the prophecy is true or becomes true, and not merely because it is being brute-forced into becoming true. It’s fulfillment is organic. It is possible that even the Bene Gesserit were influenced by visions of the future when making the prophecy, but this is pure speculation. However, I’m sick and tired of takes that Paul is a “false prophet” or “false messiah.” No, he certainly is a real prophet and a real messiah insofar as such a thing is even possible. He can literally see the future and the past, and he is the Fremen savior and fulfillment of all their religious beliefs, many of which are independent of the Bene Gesserit (such as their desire to remake Arrakis as a green paradise). Finally, to the point that Paul uses the Fremen to achieve his own ends, this is partly true, but the Fremen use Paul to achieve revenge for their thousands of years of grievances against the imperium just as much as Paul uses the Fremen for revenge against the Harkonnens, if not more more than. Every aspect of Paul that people call morally grey or straight up bad is also one that the Fremen enthusiastically support. The Fremen greatly desired a Jihad. These were not a people being manipulated.

[@behurastudio]

I just realized how George is like if Frank and Tolkien had a (rather violent) baby Also i adore the ambiguity of whether a hero CAN be bad so much and what people in ASOIAF are willing to do

[@thomasmartin4281]

I agree that Dany's "madness" will be somewhat misguided or accidental, like with the wildfire or taking out Faegon thinking he was a malignant fraud when people loved him despite his likely Blackfyre identity.

[@Aydan2108]

That will be so lame, it completely ruins her character

[@ACinemafanatic]

Well Faegon is definitely gonna be on the throne he doesn’t seem like a great ruler especially with how he and Tyrion interacted. Varys believes he can shake a king but it’s definitely not gonna go the way he believes it will plus Jon connington is spreading greyscale which may cause a lot of things to happen in kings landing

[@Ashbrash1998]

Maybe the real prophets are the friends we made along the way

[@gentlesavage2068]

Bran's character feels like a mix of paul atreides, leto the second and Frodo. Bran's warging abilities and green seeing is very similar to paul's visions and dreams and maybe if bran becomes king in the books like he does in the show, then maybe his reign will be similar to paul atreides and leto the 2nd's reigns as emperor, and also skin changing and warging into other people is similar to how the bene geserit & paul and leto can access all the memories of their ancestors and also bran's personality just feels very similar to Paul's and frodo's. Also the Bolton's being the ancestral enemies of the starks and being extremely cruel and violent is very similar to the harkonnens being the ancestral enemies of the atreides and the harkonnens are also extremely cruel and violent. tywin lannister conspiring with the boltons and the freys to wipe out the starks is very similar to the emperor conspiring with the harkonnens to wipe out the atreides. the golden lion throne is the seat of power for house corrino and the lannister sigil is a golden lion

[@gerardjagroo]

Good call! I do think King Bran is coming and that is why George is hesitant to publish because he saw how that went down in Game of Thrones Bran is like bran, its something that is good for you but not something most people would necessarily choose because it's boring. It's the boring people who make good Kings. Those who quietly focus on the day to day running of the state and avoid drama 😂

[@nicokrasnow1851]

​@@gerardjagroo Bran in the books is becoming darker and darker, and his dynamic with the Children of the Forest is reminescent of Leto II with Jacurutu

[@nicokrasnow1851]

I see the Lannister closer to the Harkonnen, as they're both houses characterize by their cunning, their wealth and being ruthless, but the Bolton can be based in the Harkonnen sadism too

[@zenitsu1909]

Daenerys is Paul because she is “promised prince”

[@owenleach7778]

Younger martin just gave me an aneurysm and a panik atac

[@TH3DUDE0075]

For real, he looks like a pedo - and then when you think about some of the stuff in a song of ice and fire……ouch…..

[@ericfloortje]

Thanks for the warning

[@jordanford9320]

Just a little note. I love that you edited Danny's eyes to be purple. Kudos

[@ChampionGold]

Thank u for uploading this got me thru my shift this morning

[@CrusaderChris]

Thanks for watching, hope your shift went well

[@Viffido]

You hit the nail in the head about Dany's path in the books. Finally someone agrees that her madness plotline is a show only thing. I think she will be called mad queen but as propaganda spread by her enemies, which is already happening in the epilogue of A Dance with Dragons.

[@wwanca3771]

it’s always people that want to justify her atrocities that make statements like this dany is not a good person(get over it)and she is an even worse leader

[@Viffido]

@@wwanca3771 sure, whatever you say.

[@rodrigobogado8756]

@@wwanca3771 she has't done those atrocities in the books... But i agree that she isn't a good leader

[@christopherlyons5900]

GRRM never stops reminding us her father went mad, and madness afflicted many of her ancestors. There was extensive inbreeding, which often leads to such problems. The mental link with her dragons obviously would be another problem--not so much madness as possession, by beings who view human lives as being inconsequential, with rare exceptions. They would not have done what they did on the show without GRRM telling them that's what happens. I'm sure it happened in a great deal more detail. And she was probably much worse in GRRM's version (as she was in the books in general). And he's never denied that she goes mad in his version--since we've already seen it, that wouldn't be a spoiler. He knows damn well what they did is, in the main, what he told them to do.

[@Viffido]

@@christopherlyons5900 George wouldn't make her mad in two books when he said Aerys' madness took years to develop, it would fall into the same mistake of the show of being underdeveloped. We already have made queen in Cersei, if you read her chapters or Jaime's chapters in the 4th book you can see Cersei is the mad king parallel and she's only gonna get worse, she used wildfire to explode one part of the city in the show, she might do worse in the books. It would be redundant to have two mad queens.

[@jonathanbassett3656]

So what you're saying is stop being so hard on myself for wanting to use tropes or things I like from other stories and making them my own in my own stories cuz even the best do it, I love that

[@minnumseerrund]

hell, even Tolkien himself didnt really set out to be original as much as he attempted to recreate a proto-English mythology

[@mapletree3434]

Isn't in the books Jon very much tempted and full of life long desire to be an acknowledged leader? (more complex than that, but certainly not 'I don't want it' kind of guy). Still I'm fascinated by Jon, Dany and Paul.

[@mechwarrior83]

What a well researched and put together video! All the archive footage you whacked together should win you some sort of prize.

[@williamnissen5083]

Another thing I wanted to Add Martin also took inspiration from another fantasy series: the first Osten Ard books, memory, sorrow and thorn which also involves a false prophecy ect. Brief summary in the first Osten Ard trilogy it involves the protagonist’s following a prophecy that says uniting three swords will help them defeat the antagonist and stop them from bringing back the storm king however in the third book of the trilogy it’s revealed the prophecy was not for the heroes but the antagonists in order to release the storm king the bad guys needed the three swords to help release the storm king from limbo so they manipulated the heroes to do their dirty work for them. I think it’s possible the Azor ahai prophecy might also be misunderstood. What if Azor ahai isn’t a saviour but a destroyer. The prophecy is a warning not a promise of a saviour. I mean even Melisandre says “IF SOMETIMES I HAVE MISTAKEN A WARNING FOR A PROPHECY OR A PROPHECY FOR A WARNING. THE FAULT LIES IN THE READER, NOT THE BOOK” so what if this holds true for Azor Ahai as well

[@Jinchurikii18]

I mean Paul is not really the Kwisatz Haderach either and neither is his son Leto II, even though he became the God-emperor and a worm. The actual messiah is Duncan Idaho. He will eventually, after being cloned like a thousand times, defeat the thinking machines forever and unite humanity in Dune. So it´s a double false lead.

[@skraggity]

START THE DAMNED VIDEO BEFORE I PISS MESELF

[@Admiral-General_Aladeen]

Me after season 8: Give me something for the pain and let me die

[@alphaheart9949]

Good video overall with the connected themes between these two titans of fictions. Only info that should be pointed out and added is that the whole Azora Hai prophecy (which I notice a fair amount of people either forget or don't acknowledge) is how ESSOS dealt with the Long Night. Westeros already has their own story of The Last Hero and their journey to stop the Others where a light bringing sword is never mentioned or anything really associated with Azora Hai. I find it ironically funny that despite clear warnings against the dangers of prophecy that so many readers fall for this one.

[@arandomguysshh8614]

nice analysis we need more of u videos

[@zozezoze0425]

I love your ideas and the script is amazing continue the hard my g

[@CrusaderChris]

Thank you, appreciate it

[@shinken6636]

People assume that the 3 eyed crow and bloodraven are one and the same but if the past can be changed too like it was implied, its bran all along, and bloodraven was only another agent under him. Bran from the future purged the bloodlines and started the events for the azor ahai that would stop the others. Thats why Bran in the Jon dream had three eyes, he was the bird in his own dreams too.

[@shr1mppoboi950]

This is a crzy concept ngl

[@rupnishadas9814]

I actually think this is what it is. With the message of the past informing the future, no latter how minute. I think george knew who was going to be is “central figure” when he started his first book with his POV. The books will end with Bran just like it started. What we will see is, him going from being the boy scared of a “necessary” execution to perhaps become the machination behind many such necessary acts of violence.

[@marjoe32]

Good set up for the video after 3 minutes ik already 100% with you lol. Bittersweet is GRRM favorite theme imo

[@massacolonel5950]

Shade of the Evening is also inspired by the mentat's mind expanding drug, the Juice of Saphu, which stains their lips.

[@CrusaderChris]

Good call, totally forgot about Sapho. Piter drinking it in Lynch’s Dune was creepy asf

[@t_hetty1758]

0:16 so ur telling me the books had these covers and I have never seen them on any printing from a store!?

[@BeteBlanc]

I agree with almost all the video. My only reservation is where you name Jon rather than Bran the forged bloodline. I don't think it makes sense in the how he's constructed his false hopes. I do however now understand where another of the OG heroes names is derived. Thanks.

[@HodajuciParadoks]

If he ever finish the books ....we will find out.

[@victariondrownedmemory9886]

what a fantastic video!

[@janwouter5215]

Duke Leto Atreides is incredibly powerful mate, the landsraad look to him for guidance and it is speculated that his fighting forces are beginning to rival those of the emperor.

[@lipingrahman6648]

The Lord of the Rings and Dune are the two works that are the true opposite of each other. They comment on each other. All other works such as A song of ice and fire, Star Wars, etc are orthogonal to them and dependent upon them. Though it should be said anyone who’s read the Foundation Series will see where Herbert got his ideas.

[@shr1mppoboi950]

I'll have to use that word, orthogonal

[@peterwindhorst5775]

12:18. Was Aegon's dream of the "Prince that was promised" natural? Or did someone or something send it? With Three Eyed Crow / Blood-Raven / time-travelling Bran / or by Glass candles - the results would be the same -> The targ will believe it is their destiny to unite the 7 kingdoms and keep themselves on the throne with or without dragons.

[@williamnissen5083]

I do think Martin said he also enjoyed messiah in an old blog post but yeah I don’t think he was a massive fan beyond that

[@nicokrasnow1851]

Good video, but where's Bran who's Kwisazt Haderach-coded as hell, whose name has simbolic power in ASOIAF world, was the final king in the series and is Bloodraven's successor?

[@whowantsit983]

I don't think Dany flipped out cause the power alone.... She was alone, had lost everybody, Everybody will love Jon, she ll feel alone and isolated in her home, after all she has done... I can see how Dany Breaks bad at the end of Asoiaf

[@Aydan2108]

Are you talking about the books?

[@MavenWalsh]

"The Dragon shall have 3 heads". That's why Rhaegar was trying to get 3 kids to fulfill the prophecy. But he got 2 of his kids killed in the process.

[@EarnestTargenfyre]

A greater sacrifice must be made to fulfill the destiny!

[@MavenWalsh]

@@EarnestTargenfyre It would have been hilarious if the prophecy was really referring to a 3 headed dragon like King Ghidorah. www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwikizilla.org%2Fwiki%2FKing_Ghidorah_%2528Monsterverse%2529&psig=AOvVaw08-LkEQFmAnTLDRNplc_6o&ust=1712773102331000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CBMQjhxqFwoTCOiJq5rftYUDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAI

[@JBarG22]

1:13 Why is that... What? That's Beneath the Remains by Sepultura, how?

[@gulliverfoyle406]

People don't know how to enjoy art. They say black and white for Tolkien's characters and the world he created. They say Martin writes more realistic and grey. However, these are ridiculous. Of course, our world is a gray world, but this does not mean that there are no situations where there is only black and white. These stories are told that way because of their basics. If the characters of Frodo or Gandalf or Sam were gray, there would be no LOTR. LOTR and ASOIAF are works that determine their own myths, stories, characters and narrative style. Yes, they have an author, but those who have a little bit of writing know that a writer is someone who listens and observes many things that happen. it reveals rather than creates them. This is how the events developed in the case of Tolkien and Martin, read them both and enjoy!

[@thalmoragent9344]

2:36 I dunno. Does a Messiah really _have to_ be a fully good person? I mean, Paul does aid to free the Fremen against a common enemy, and he doesn't see them as lesser even before the fall of his house. Instead he learns even more among them and they work together to free Dune, and then they join him since he was able to lead them against their enemies as well Mutual aid, is it not? I've never read the Dune books so, bare with me if I sound ignorant if I'm missing something major. 18:50 And once again, Bloodraven is proven to be cold and brutish. Even the Benet Geserit didn't have to slaughter people of the noble houses, to my knowledge, to get their desired results

[@shinken6636]

.... they literally commit galactic level genocde in later books

[@PeperoniMomma]

Geez. In the books she isnt even in westeros she choices to stay and has yet to get to the sea in fact back pedaled to the Dotharki again getting closer to the end of Quieth prophecy where in order for her to go forward she must go back. The next part is to touch the light you myst go passed beneath shadow. Interesting that it says she has to pass BENEATH the shadow not to it or threw it or or by it beneath it.

[@HegartyMath]

The Winds of Winter is coming

[@zahzahmasterchi]

Whennnnn 😩😩

[@xitzbit926]

​@@zahzahmasterchi when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east....

[@Milkra]

i can't wait to read winds of winter with my grandkids

[@MrMustache-yn4zm]

....when the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves@@xitzbit926

[@rey2352]

Speaking of false prophets...

[@faisalkamal4319]

born in salt and smoke is he a ham

[@gasmanoo2]

Yes, The ham that was promised.

[@alosterionwrynn]

I haven’t seen this video yet, but i pretty sure it’s great as usual😁. P.s By the way, i’m first🙈

[@PeperoniMomma]

Rewatch the first s3ason then Daenerys said she has always wanted a home only.

[@AllTheArtsy]

i mean... duh. azor ahai's greatest achievement is killing his wife to achieve a magic sword. does that sound like a hero to you? anyone who didnt clue in on that right away is not paying attention. davos already told us this

[@junaidakbar9623]

It was criminal of you to worry about ASOIAF spoilers..

[@Henbot]

You forgot to list Tolkien was big into Arthurian.

[@striker8961]

Considering there is no singular main character of the story, and there are many legends of the same figure across the world, is it possible... that it was actually stopped...by multiple people, working together directly or indirectly, or unintentionally, independently, whatever. Makes a lot more sense that proclaiming one person the true messiah, that they might believe they are, but considering all the different people who could fit all the criteria, a more co-operative solution makes a lot more sense, especially since their greatest weakness has been division, in fighting, distrust, back stabbing, seeking to be number one, that a solution where they share power, is the one that works. Which thematically ties into the problem of having just 1 king. That or everyone dies and or the messiah is an asshole.

[@user-op7ib4ye6v]

Azor Ahai is a huge Red herring.

[@dwise3407]

Sansa and Jon will combine the Targaryen and starks

[@Aydan2108]

Lmao 💀🤣

[@viniciusdeoliveira5869]

Azor Ahai is dead. Nissa Nissa is dead. Lightbringer lies buried in ice at the wall.

[@Ouioui555]

Felt the ending to the show of game of thrones was basically DUNE. Brandon is the dune ending …

[@cristianmurillo4873]

I mean we won’t see it play out cause Martin won’t finish the book

[@casquinhaS2]

Justice for Nissa Nissa 😩🤏🏽

[@timhayes8509]

KOBE

[@Mergerie_Smithaton]

Since GRR Martin likes to subvert tropes it makes me think there is no Azor Ahai. There is no chosen one and they shouldn't believe in prophecies. That would add an extra layer of tragedy for the Targaryens who believed Azor Ahai would be born from their bloodline and Rhaegar thinking his child with Lyanna would be the one. How cruel if all that was for nothing.

[@briana8088]

Dany self-sacrificing? That's the dumbest thing i ever heard.

[@LNGD_46]

Actually the dragon has three heads. Jon, Daenerys, and... Who's the third one?

[@Aydan2108]

Jon is no dragon

[@LNGD_46]

@@Aydan2108 If RLJ is true, then he is.

[@ACinemafanatic]

Possibly Bran when bloodraven fully controls him

[@Aydan2108]

@LNGD_46 That doesn't Qualify him as a dragon, just because his daddy was a targ doesn't mean that his going to be a dragon, he is a lizard at most.

[@LNGD_46]

@@Aydan2108 you'll have a very hard time finding pure-blood Targaryens, especially since most of them are all dead or not introduced (unlikely) yet. Even bloodraven is half Blackwood.

[@jordanford9320]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't azora ahai come from " the wheel of time" book series

[@whowantsit983]

Rhagar married Lyanna.... Jon is heir to the Iron Throne, raised a humble bastard.. The make up of a potential great king.. Of .. There you covered, them getting married.. nice vid, so far

[@lebronfan8051]

Jon isn’t heir to shit, whether that freak Rhaegar ‘married’ Lyanna or not.

[@GoogleUserOne]

Oh yeah. Totally. He wrote the matrix too.

[@Vlad95Chad]

Jon is Azor Ahai, Daenerys is Lightbringer, the red dragon with three heads. Anyway if you have read the Silmarillion , you know he took inspiration from Tolkien works for some stuff, Nymeria burning the ships is something very similar to what Feanor did after the first kinslaying

[@bandit9667]

Victarion is azor ahai Fight me

[@YarPirates-vy7iv]

​@@bandit9667the real Azor Ahai is the smiles of children as they find magic in everyday things... ...probably. No fighting!

[@bandit9667]

@YarPirates-vy7iv but I want fight ;(

[@vulpes4081]

Wait how can a human be lightbringer it's probably drogo daenerys dragon

[@alehanedilko2147]

There is no Azor Ahai. Religious bullshit is always a lie

[@wildertacklehdkek3309]

Egg believing in prophesies also doesnt go that good for him and his fam

[@CrusaderChris]

Yeah he goofed up at Summerhall, that’s for sure

[@gerardjagroo]

All these years Bloodraven did so much to prop up the Targaryen reign but yet he never did anything to benefit himself?! Impossible! George doesn't make his characters so one dimensional. I think Bloodraven _did_ do something for his own benefit or rather to benefit his bloodline? Look up the Lothston/Whent connection and the theory that Bloodraven had a child with the bloody sorceress 'Mad' Danelle Lothston. The idea that this child or his or her descendants became Whents and was thus an ancestor of Catelyn Stark whose mother was herself a Whent (Lady Minisia Whent) Look at the sigils of House Lothston and House Whent. Lothston sigil is a _single_ black bat on a Golden/Silver field while the Whent sigil is _many_ black bats on a Golden field _From the single black bat of House Lothston came the many black bats of House Whent_ Also when 'Mad' Danelle Lothston finally fell, her house ended with her and it went out hated and despised by its contemporaries. Now in light of this fact _isn't it passing strange that their successors House Whent chose a virtually identical sigil to House Lothston?!!_ Now the 'evidence' that Bloodraven had a child with 'Mad' Danelle Lothston is admittedly slim and it is when Bloodraven showed up at Whitewalls to crush the Second Blackfyre Rebellion he did so in the company of 'Mad' Danelle Lothston. Given the fact that they both shared an affinity for magic it is not out of the realm of possibility that they hooked up Also Bloodraven's first lover Shiera Seastar was also steeped in sorcery, so clearly he was into witch chicks. The point of all of this is to put out the idea that Bloodraven found out about the Aegon prophecy (child's play for a Greenseer) and acted selfishly to ensure that it was from his bloodline that the prophesied hero would come from. If any of this is true, we cannot rule out the possibility that any of Lady Catelyn's children might be the prophesied hero. Also given that Arya was the one to kill the Night King (yes I know there's no NK in the books...yet!) in the show, I think the theory holds water. If D&D could have chosen who would kill the Night King they would have probably gone with the stereotypical Jon because those two had little imagination (at least after they ran out of source material) The fact that it was Arya, which no one expected makes me think it comes from George. Arya unexpectedly killing the Night King and Bran unexpectedly becoming King makes me think that all of this was the culmination of a centuries-long plot by Bloodraven to ensure that *his* bloodline won out in the end. It may be even darker that that if King Bran was actually Bloodraven who stole his body. Just an idea.

[@deesilthemenace3143]

If the last that last witch lady that brought back Jon Snow Targaryen 🐺/🐉 still alive she might bring Daenerys Targaryen back because why her dragon 🐉 pic her up and live with the body wtf he gonna eat it her NO!!! That's why I think we about to see one the best season soon. Jon Snow Targaryen vs Daenerys Targaryen. this gone get crazy if they continue... #GOT

[@crusader2112]

Great video, but Tolkien's work has a lot going for it. It has some pretty intense stories that aren't just good vs evil. Children of Hurin anyone?

[@miguelvales5125]

It is impossible for Daenerys to blow up Kings Landing because of wildfire, if it was to happen, it should have happened during the Battle of Blackwater Bay. Besides, we now that wildfire has become far easier to produce since the birth of Dany's dragons, and a lot of wildfire from the reign of Aerys II has already been discovered (hundreds of jars), so there could not be many wildfire caches left, if any at all.

[@krismeaney2841]

Where is the darkness in Jon Snow? I've yet to see any in either the books or the show - Maybe I missed it, but he certainly doesn't seem to have an internal tug of war between the two.

[@CrusaderChris]

Jon Snow struggles immensely with his desire for Winterfell despite knowing he’s a bastard and loving his siblings. He has dreams about gaining power, and even beheading Robb, but he forces himself to decline Stannis and stay at the Wall. Of course, his love for Arya eventually leads to his downfall and he’s murdered for betraying his vows. The conflict for Jon is between his love for his family and his identity as a bastard versus his deep desire for Winterfell. He says Winterfell is all he’s ever wanted.

[@dani.lepore9410]

"I've read the books". Sure pal

[@AprilMarvin]

If you don't see the darkness of book Jon Snow.....then perhaps you should consider reading with your eyes open

[@krismeaney2841]

@@CrusaderChris Thanks for the response. I can see how the environmental conditions of his childhood and his shame in being a bastard could lead to some 'evil' motivations, but besides a dream he overcame those thoughts pretty easily. These other conflicts don't strike me as dark or evil, more motivations out of love and care for family- even if the decisions he made might not have been the best. . .

[@krismeaney2841]

@@AprilMarvin Ok Troll, thanks for the comment.

[@JBarG22]

I dumwanit

[@sebastiantrias1529]

Monty Python Life of Brian dealt false prophets better then Game of Thrones.

[@nightshadoew436]

This isn't how I think it will play out but rather my hope for it; Jon won’t be a Targaryen or Azor Ahai in any way, that will be only Dany. The story will focus on how Dany, the prophecy saviour, is too consumed by personal wants while Jon, you "averege Joe" will be trying to save the world. If it goes that way(which I don’t think it will) there will propably be a point where Dany reslises she is wrong to chase after the throne because "It is my right" and dedicate herself to saving humanity while Jon will go "fuck it, die to ice zombies you bastards" after his resurection. When they meet that will be a huge talking point between them

[@zenitsu1909]

She deserves throne , and she will get it

[@not_averge]

Why are ppl just now thinking of dune

[@L154N4LG4IB]

Cus Dune 2 came out and it may just bring back Hollywood

[@TheMaleRei]

George Martin is not worthy to shine Tolkien's shoes...

[@ChristianAuditore14]

Nah

[@TheKeyser94]

There is a little problem with your story, meanwhile Paul is a confirmed "messiah", Jon Snow "messiah" status is based on a stupid fan theory that was popular ten years ago, R+L+ = J, that most A Song of Ice and Fire fans distance themselves because how shitty it was when implemented in the screen, filled with plot holes and out of character moments, the only way for Jon Snow become a "messiah" is that everyone around him become stupid or had knowledge that they didn't learn, and switch alliances for no reason, Jon Snow is dead in the books, and he die like his father Eddard Stark, putting honour where there is non, hell, now at days, everyone is saying how shitty commander Jon Snow was.

[@NoOne-uh9vu]

There exist no example at all for the often repeated claim of all those alleged: "simple stories where the bad guys are pure evil and the good guys never do any wrong" . This is more often than not just burning a straw man to elevate morally questionable ideas like cynicism, nihilism and moral relativism

[@Edvinas97]

,,GRRM is compared to Tolkien,, Bro you need to finish the story first, to be judged like that GRRM is either lazy or doesnt know how to finish it, and takes great offense when fans ( who made him who he is now btw) start to question him

[@TheKeyser94]

The mistake that GRRM because he already worked on TV; had the brilliant idea of over hype Jon Snow, when all about his character that wasn't in the books was based on a stupid fan theory, but GRRM and the producers of the show used that stupid Fan Theory to promote Games of Thrones, I think that GRRM is waiting, that the stupid theory die down, so he could continue with his work, because if he finish Winds of Winter now, he is between a rock and hard place, he either resuscitate Jon Snow causing all kinds of plot holes and out of character moments, that could have the same effect as the TV Show or he don't, that would get angry a little minority of the Fandom that is very loud, basically the A Song of Ice and Fire version of the Original Star Wars fans.

[@Edvinas97]

@@TheKeyser94 good points bro, especially about the loud minority of the ASOIF fans But I gotta be frank, if you write series of books you sign an unwritten contract with your fans, so to speak ( thats only my opinion though lol) And i just want GRRM to be honest about if he gonna finish the books, if he is stuck , can't wrap all the plotlines, and lets face it he is an senior citizen i understand, the mind is not sharp as it use to be... And thats fine I just hate how he gaslights his fans who basically made who he was, and call them haters for asking when the next book gonna come out I read the quote that GRRM is not your Biatch but he keeps treating his fans like that

[@TheKeyser94]

@@Edvinas97 Doing that is admitting that he lie to the Jon Snow fans, and he would face their backlash, even that everyone feel embarrassment now for even believing the bullshit of the fan theory, Jon Snow never meant to be a "messiah", that was only in the Jon Snow fans that believe that, and GRRM is responsible of manipulate them to promote their show, and now that he is doing House of the Dragon, he cant freely admit that he lie to promote Games of Thrones, that everything about Jon Snow was smoke and mirrors, and he was just the bastard of Eddard Stark, even that the fan theory is mostly dead and buried, no ones cares, well, the only ones that still cares, are the random Jon Snow fans left, that still cling to the stupid fan theory like Crusade Chris, even that Jon Snow in the books is dead and possible his corpse was burn to crisps, to stop the possibility that he become a zombie or worse, even that there is still a possibility that Jon Snow lives as Warg with his mind fuse with Ghost, but that is what he ever be.

[@itstayna_abreu]

American Tolkien hahahahahahahahah he should respect Tolkien first

[@HubertHumphreyWasHere]

Oh did you miss the part where George says "I love Tolkien" and "he had a profound effect on me"? I guess that means he doesn't respect Tolkien.... God forbid Martin have a slightly differing opinion about writing style. You can enjoy both or either without making weird asf comments like this

[@InfiniteStyler]

Moron without a brain.

[@behurastudio]

Given how huge Tolkien is there’s bound to be some braindead dimwits who try to pit his works against others

[@wolfbane7497]

Tolkien would slap Martin

[@alexandernogran5413]

Wdym?

[@turtleguyfan]

this weird hatred Tolkien fans have for GRRM is the most mind numbing thing i’ve witnessed

[@wolfbane7497]

​​@@turtleguyfan how's that winds of winter coming along still waiting till you 50 for it to come out or maybe a hundred years old

[@prey556]

@@turtleguyfanbros just screaming out to the void lmfao

[@brandojoansaldanarivas6143]

​@@wolfbane7497And you think that somehow determines tha talent of the writer? God! You people act more like a cult.

[@user-pr6nc8df4g]

Aegon the conqueror IS NOT A DREAMER! Anyone who have actually read the books know that this is only an only an invention of the House of the Dragon showrunners. I honestly feel disgusted, as a true fan of A song of Ice and fire that you include this Aegon the dreamer bullshit in your videos

[@CrusaderChris]

Nope, GRRM told Ryan Condal (HOTD showrunner) that Aegon's dream is canon. We won't know the exact details, which may differ from Condal's adaptation, until the books are finished, but the dream itself exists in the book canon. Source: www.businessinsider.com/house-of-the-dragon-asoiaf-prophecy-reveal-came-from-george-rr-martin-2022-8 Another source: screenrant.com/house-dragon-aegon-dream-george-rr-martin/ GRRM hinting at it in 2018: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXe5ZaJrfMqUgLM

[@user-pr6nc8df4g]

@@CrusaderChris well he might have said that in order to acommódate the storyline of the show but if you have actually read the books ( as I'm sure you have) youll know, right from the get go, that this makes absolutely no sense and that is NEVER mentioned, in ANY book , being A song of ice and fire, Fire and Blood or the World of Ice and Fire.

[@CrusaderChris]

@@user-pr6nc8df4g No, GRRM told this to Ryan Condal early in pre-production of the show. This was not retroactively added by George. Please look at those sources I linked, particularly the video from 2018. It's quite clear this is something George has planned for a while and hasn't been ready to publish yet. He might have been saving it for a reveal later on. George keeps the lore very obfuscated on purpose.

[@LuluDZulu]

lotta recap. not a lot of protein here.

[@boomerbyll3004]

Martin is no where near a Tolkien. His books were good. But they do not change an entire genre. There are better (and completed) series by modern authors. Martin will never finish this series. He lost interest in writing it because of how poorly his proposed ending played out in the show. He doesn’t know how to get out of the corner he has written himself into. As a former fan of the books I am so disappointed by martins poor work ethic and inability to keep interest in this series. I’m not reading anything more by him until he finishes this series. Tolkien finished his series and is the better author.

[@axolotl1777]

Tolkien made stories for kids and Martin for adults

[@boomerbyll3004]

@@axolotl1777 Tolkien was a better writer and Martin is outclassed as a writer by Tolkien and many of his contemporaries. If you think Martin is a good writer you should read more.

[@axolotl1777]

@@boomerbyll3004 it takes more talent to write complex characters than just plain good guys and bad guys

[@kaleanaking5292]

Let people have their opinions without you belittling them for it. Just because he isn’t to you doesn’t mean others need to “read more”

[@boomerbyll3004]

@@kaleanaking5292 fair enough, like what you like. 🙄

[@yodasmomisondrugs7959]

15:35 😆🤣Not far off from what D and D turned her into without giving a real explanation.

[@Itskimheadass]

I never understand dune lore until i watched this video as a hardcore game of thrones fan i finally understand wtf dune is about.