Vaegon Targaryen: The First Green Dragon (ASOIAF Theory)

[@Jonkuzon]

The Chained Dragon goes hard, definitely the best Targaryen epithet, I’m surprised Grrm never used it for maester Aemon

[@QuinnTheGM]

I made that up, glad you like it lol

[@justagachaplayerpassingby5073]

Aemon were called the old dragon i think

[@EL-ISS]

​​@@justagachaplayerpassingby5073I started calling Dany "The Lone Dragon" after Aemond said: "A Targaryen ... alone in this world" Even though it's not true technically, metaphorically it works. "Mother of Dragons" never sounded right to me even though it works, as well.

[@basedchimera5859]

@@EL-ISS "Mommy Dragon"

[@EL-ISS]

@@basedchimera5859 😩

[@dominicgennaro3726]

If Vaegon does appear in Hot D, then I think an interesting idea would be to have him act as a dark version of maester Aemon for Daeron if he’s actually in the show

[@mysteryjunkie9808]

He really should’ve at least showed him during the Great Council of 101

[@amcc666]

@@mysteryjunkie9808why?

[@ianneufville3789]

They did he is standing by jaehareys during the council look at the 1st episode again

[@ElongatedVowels]

@@ianneufville3789 Is he? Besides Viserys, his wife, and the Velaryons, there's only a Septon and a Kingsguard next to Jaehaerys.

[@flaminiamariafuccelli8214]

"The opposite of the Targaryen ideal is math!" (paraphraising) Elaena, daughter of Aegon III, de-facto mistress of coin for Daeron II because of her talent in math: "Am I a joke to you?"

[@user-ti5cw1ug6l]

She was marked with gold too.

[@reflektor7897]

I wouldn't be surprised if Elaena's financial chops were influenced by her uncle, too. Viserys was smart; lived for years in Lys, & had a banking family for in-laws; kept the Targaryen treasury afloat whilst Daeron warred in Dorne, & later Baelor spent huge on things like feeding the capital's poor & beginning construction on the Great Sept, wore his brother's *gold* crown as king, & is also depicted holding coins in his official Amok portrait. And Elaena named her first 'trueborn' child after him (if perhaps that also being a fuck you to Aegon IV, who'd probably raped her). Viserys may very well serve Aegon III as Master of Coin before being his Hand.

[@flaminiamariafuccelli8214]

@@reflektor7897 I thought the math expertise derived from being locked in the Maidenvault for a decade, but I wouldn't be surprised if Uncle Vizzy were an influence. I certainly think he influenced his grandson Daeron II!

[@Walkth15way]

I think you're too hard on Vaegon here, by suggesting a great council, he creates a way for the Targ dynasty to settle succession disputes without having a bloody civil war. If anything he's a hero.

[@KOCChristian]

Great council choice the “gender debate” to cover the secret that they didn’t want a ruler with too much power (dragons). It’s can be said Vaegon wanted his family to get rid of dragons and not believe themselves as gods. But that like tell Lannister to get rid of all their gold.

[@Walkth15way]

@@KOCChristian I have always held the opinion that the mark of a good ruler is how they handle their succession, all power is temporary, a good system of government is one that is able to perpetuate itself through the peaceful transition of power. A good king respects the feudal contract, picks an heir who is supported by lords, and minimises the risks of civil war. The problem is that the dragons break the feudal contract by making the monarchy too powerful. The council is a good but not perfect mechanism to fix this problem, as it gives the lord's a say and a way for them to set aside an heir who is unfit.

[@kekero540]

@@KOCChristianthey could not allow Corlys access to the Iron Throne. He’d try to conquer all of Essos at westerosi expense

[@darriusbethea2373]

He probably not a hero or a villain. It said he didn’t care for dragons & had a very tense relationship with siblings especially his sisters. His parents were busy ruling & the huge amounts of his other sibling that he likely was neglected some what. Him suggesting his father hold a Great Council could be a clever plot because he knows the lords if able will elect a man because vast majority of them are men & Viserys is ideal for Citadel he more easily manipulated & doesn’t ride a dragon anymore. Vaegon could’ve bluntly told his father name Rhaenys heir she next in line she Aemon only child & has a son. Make the son take the name Targ & make that the end of it.

[@Walkth15way]

@@darriusbethea2373 Boy kings are always a danger, I can understand the logic of wanting a man grown

[@jkelsey555]

"we all think you're kinda weird and don't want you getting married" Vaegon: "billions must die"

[@GreyWasteTim]

"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything." -some maester probably

[@TheBHNetwork]

This seems like a pretty massive reach to me; we have no reason to believe that Vaegon had any kind of murderous resentment toward his own family, especially members like Viserys and Rhaenys, at most he’s characterized as being wholly apathetic toward them. For him to predict that the great council would somehow lead to the dance he would have to somehow be confident in the assumption that: a.) Viserys would have a girl b.) Viserys would then never be able to produce another living child with Aemma c.) Aemma would die in child birth, Viserys would remarry, produce a son who he would then break thousands of years of precedent to pass over for the throne. Or he would have to for some reason believe that Viserys would make some other random blunder on the throne massive enough to lose the Targaryens their twenty some odd dragons. The assertion that putting Viserys on the throne somehow distances the throne from magic doesn’t make any sense to me either as Viserys never expressed any intention to get rid of or prevent the rest of his family from riding dragons. From a logical perspective the great council was the move most likely to avoid a violent succession crisis, and thats what it did. If anything, the dance would have happened sooner given Jae didn’t go through with the council. I feel like people take the great maester conspiracy at face value as the explanation for a bunch of things throughout the story that have infinitely more plausible and likely explanations.

[@fuzi5303]

Honestly I love that someone else is saying this because it’s definitely true people always blame the conspiracy for everything and it’s infuriating

[@Derkosson]

Another thing about the great council is that since it's the idea of Vaegon, it's interesting that a lot of people who did not have a vote were allowed to talk. Maesters gave their opinions, as well as septons. Both organisation were based in Oldtown, and we know the Hightowers (the lords of Oldtown) voted for Viserys. Dornish lords were also invited. Since they weren't under the Iron Throne, they wouldn't have a vote. Considering their own laws, they would have supported Rhaenys. Considering they were widely hated by the other kingdoms, it probably did more ill than good for Rhaenys' Cause. There is also the fact the council ended before all the lords could attend and vote. most likely, the nothern lords would be the last to arrive, as they are the farthest. And since the Starks voted for Rhaenys, and the North generally follow their leads, its quite a few votes lost for Rhaenys. If Vaegon oversaw all those details of the council, then he really stacked the deck against Rhaenys, which makes one wonder if the vote could actually have gone another way without all of that. And that's before taking into account things like the Lannisters and Tyrells (who both voted for Viserys) who brought armies with them (no, voter intimidation isn't a thing, shut up you're crazy.)

[@thalmoragent9344]

Many Lords brought small armies with them, not just ones who voted for Viserys. With or without a Northern vote under House Stark, Rhaenys would've lost

[@Derkosson]

@@thalmoragent9344 The Tyrells and Lannisters are the ones directly cited as having brought armies, explicitly being the ones with the biggest armies. Sure, the North may not change things by itself. But my point is that it's the absence of the North + the support of the dornish + the septons and maesters weighing in + the voter inimidation... There's clearly a lot of different factors that should lead us to question the fairness of the election and the idea that the result reflects the opinion of most lords.

[@thalmoragent9344]

@Derkosson Sure, Tyrell's and Lannisters brought armies but they're the 2 Kingdoms most able to afford to do so. The size and wealth of the Reach and Westerlands respectively only makes sense. They wanted to flaunt their power and status, as they're representing their House's (and of course, their high levels of pride) And even then, if we added EVERY Lord/Lady, Maester, Septon/Septa's, and even the added Dornish, I do believe Viserys still would've won. Would it have been closer? Perhaps yes, Rhaenys has Northerner support, and if the Dornish had gotten voting rights, then the mostly egalitarian Dornishmen would've likely had most of their votes cast in favor of Rhaenys. So Rhaenys would've had: -House Stark (so most all the North) -House Baratheon (not sure to the Stormlands) -House Martell (if Dorne was allowed, then most all of Dorne) -House Velaryon Viserys had; -The Lannisters (most all the Westerlands) -The Tyrells (most all the Reach) -The Hightowers -The Tullys -The Arryns (Aemma is an Arryn, her house will side with her husband) -The Small Council -The ArchMaesters (most likely) -High Septon (most Septons, likely Septa's too) Voter intimidation means little, the votes themselves would've led to a decision that everyone would agree to the winner (which was the whole point, to avoid a war). Now, if you remove every one of high power who aren't the major/high lords (so, the Faith and Maesters) and we also remove the Dornish, who aren't under Targaryen rule, we're left with this: Rhaenys; -House Stark -House Baratheon -House Velaryon Viserys; -House Targaryen (Minus Rhaenys) -House Arryn -House Lannister -House Tyrell -House Hightower -The Small Council (who are still technically Lords, but you can remove them if you wish) Either way, Viserys has more support from the great houses. So if we remove all the Landed Knights, Maesters, Septon/Septa's, Dorne, Small Council's, and random petty Lords of wherever, then... major votes are still on Viserys.

[@Rhaenyssupporter]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@thalmoragent9344From what little we do know it's rumored that Rhaenys/Laenor lost 20-1 and that more than a thousand lords attended the council. By this ratio for every thousand votes Viserys gained Rhaenys would only receive fifty, which wouldn't make sense given she has tons of support in the Crownlands, Stormlands, North and some in the Riverlands. Even with the absence of many Northmen the figure would be more than only 4.76% of all voting lords.

[@thalmoragent9344]

@Rhaenyssupporter Fair enough, it's true that mayhaps there was foul play, or maybe George not crunching exact numbers cause we'll never know exactly how many people who had voting power managed to attend. That said, with the basic knowledge we have, I wouldn't be surprised if you had a point in that the vote was closes than we're meant to believe, but I also don't believe it was anything neck-and-neck. If we just go ahead and assume either 50% or 100% voting power of each Kingdom went to either side, Viserys has more ground he stands on. The Reach having 2 major houses supporting him makes all the different given the size of that Kingdom's population alone means more of the people able to vote would be in higher numbers there. The fact Maesters and Septons/Septa's were allowed to vote also adds much to that number as well, even if we assume the Septa's supported their fellow woman, Rhaenys, over Viserys. (And even that's debatable. Mayhaps some Maesters/Septons thought Rhaenys ought to have it, maybe some Septa's still sided with Viserys, even if they themselves weren't men, who knows). But yes you make a decent point, I must admit. Some numbers, no matter how you look at it, just don't add up. Not even just from a Viserys/Rhaenys standpoint, just a matter of those who attended and who was there to actually cast votes. Maybe a video/post on THAT specifically would do a lot of good. Mayhaps this is one of those things GRRM should be asked about more often than the more mainstream stuff 👀

[@JamieEgg-qs9mc]

What do you think of the parallels between Vaegon having the flagon of Arbor Gold poured over his head, and later his yellow gold Archmaester mask, to Viserys having molten gold poured over his head? The Maester’s link of gold represents sums and mathematics, but in the story gold also represents wealth and currency, and in prophecy it represents the downfall of Valyria or Targaryens. Not only did Jaime (of Casterly Rock) end the line of Targaryen rule in Westeros by putting his golden sword through the mad king’s neck, but many theorize the Doom of Valyria may have been sparked by a sum of wealth “the gold of Casterly Rock” being paid to the faceless men.

[@QuinnTheGM]

That’s a fascinating connection! I hadn’t considered that, but there is a tendency for disappointing Targaryens to be associated with gold. In this case, the pouring of the golden wine could’ve been the death of Vaegon’s love for his family, rather than Viserys’ literal death. I’ll have to keep an eye out for connections between gold and the Targaryens on future rereads!

[@siphophiri3327]

This reminds me of Joffrey pouring wine on Tyrion.

[@pawebielinski4903]

I suppose there need not be any bad blood between Vaegon & his house, I think what he suggested to Jaehaerys was solid advice. The vote could be influenced in many ways, but just the appearance of a wide consensus gave the successor much needed legitimacy. This is to be contrasted with the plot of house of the dragon.

[@whyareyoureadingmynickname8158]

I would love to see a video about maester Marwyn and about his potential role in the story. In my opinion, he was the most interesting new character in "Feast" and I hate the fact that he only appeared in one chapter and didn't even show up in "Dance".

[@QuinnTheGM]

I was just thinking the same thing!

[@aaroncohen2700]

I think Martin is playing with the idea of conspiracy. The Maesters may or may not be collaborating behind the scenes. But is it really wise to trust the word of their supposed opposition just because they’re the opposition? For all we know Marwyn could just be straight up wrong, lying, or delusional. But that also doesn’t mean he’d be completely wrong.

[@JimRFF]

@@aaroncohen2700 and don't forget Lady Dustin's criticism of the maesters -- we have no idea what Marwyn's last name is / was... Marwyn Hightower? Marwyn Martell? ... Marwyn Blackfyre? Marwyn is a character who definitely has some kind of agenda, and we know essentially nothing about his background (other than at some point he trained Mirri Maz Duur in healing and anatomy)

[@turtleguyfan]

@@aaroncohen2700 Marwyn has always seemed to me like the Westerosi version of Alex Jones, spewing conspiracy theories that have little to no basis and everyone else just kind of ignoring him or finding him annoying

[@darriusbethea2373]

What I’m thinking is who the hell he was communicating with the glass candle

[@callidus9421]

As a historian, I'd say it's incredibly unlikely but in the context of GRRM's imagination, it may have a decent chance of being true. My main reason is this: Vaegon would have to know Viserys wouldn't have a son in the future. Assuming he would (as was very logical in 101 AC), Viserys was the much more sensible option because as a man, the majority of lords preferred him. So for your theory to work, Vaegon would have to be some sort of dragon dreamer or something similar, for which there doesn't seem to be any evidence.

[@clownpendotfart]

Marwyn is simply wrong. He says Aemon was sent to the Wall because the maesters didn't trust him, but we know the real reason: he was going to be used as a pawn against Aegon IV, a rival candidate for the throne, but he took Night's Watch oaths on top of his maester's oath to prevent that. He says Aemon wasn't raised to archmaester because he was no more trustworthy than Marwyn... but Marwyn was raised to archmaester and none of the other maesters actually seem to be doing anything against him! Vaegon could not have foreseen that a later king would have a daughter he named as heir, then have a son and that the two would contest the throne. Real people cannot foresee causal chains that long, and Vaegon doesn't seem to have magical powers of foresight. His proposal of a Great Council to resolve an ambiguous succession is later echoed by Catelyn, not because she's trying to undermine anyone but instead to resolve a conflict in a way the vassals of the throne will support.

[@juwebles4352]

tbh this seems the most likely scenario, grrm loves plots but he loves paranoid characters misinterpreting omens even more. I think Marwyn is gonna be an advisor for Daenerys who leads her down a path of not trusting and maybe even hating the Maesters for 'destroying' her family.

[@PageIsYourGod]

I thought he was saying that Aemon should have eventually been nominated as Grand Maester in Old Town instead of being left up at the wall for decades?

[@clownpendotfart]

@@PageIsYourGod Aemon swore a Nights Watch vow so he couldn't be pulled into any politics of the south. There's no leaving the Nights Watch, even for maesters.

[@anchovy313]

I just assumed the Dance of Dragons was the catalyst for the Citadel to eradicate dragons, because they saw what kind of destruction they can create. I assumed they just started poisoning eggs or something. That's why all the dragons born post-Dance were all stunted.

[@ResistTheGreatReplacementEU]

Eh. I like the idea of the dragons becoming stunted as a symbolic parallel to the slow decline of house Targaryen instead of being a conspiracy.

[@joshuaadams6565]

I kinda like this theory but they couldn’t have reached every egg. Dragonstone has many caverns with dozens of eggs, surely a wild dragon has to hatch at some point? But I like the theory as Danys eggs weren’t in Westeros after the dance and all three were fine. Outside of the Maesters grip. Who knows though, maybe Aegon the 3rd (dragonbane) gave the order to hunt down and poison the eggs. Maybe it’s not even a conspiracy, he could have just asked them or they could have suggested it to him. I mean the guy hated dragons. I was always worried for Raeyna and Morning every time they visited Kingslanding. I’m dying to find out how Morning died, I hope they didn’t order her death after she accidentally hurt someone or something like similar.

[@ShiningLight]

It's more likely they just slowly poisoned the Targaryens instead of the dragons.

[@Botar48]

​@@ResistTheGreatReplacementEUExcept that doesn't really work because Targaryens kept ruling for a century and a half after losing all their Dragons. They would still be ruling if it wasn't for mad king and Rhaegar. Their replacement, Baratheons even use their blood connection to Targaryens to legitimize their rule so it really is just a name change when you think about it with Roberts grandmother being Targaryen.

[@thalmoragent9344]

Respectfully, I disagree. Yes, while you could argue that some decisions/aspects may have led to stuff down the line... I doubt Vaegon orchestrated the murder of so many of his kin and the death of all but 4 dragons by the end of the Dance. Honestly, Vaegon just told his dad to go for a vote so as to avoid war. Which is hardly villainous or scheme-worthy to me. It doesn't matter if Viserys did or didn't have a dragon, and if both or neither party had dragons, the Oldtown folk wouldn't have had anything to have any possible "bias" against. As for the Northern Lords not making it down south in time. Sure, it happened, doesn't mean it was planned. With or without their support, Rhaenys wasn't gonna win the vote, and all the Stark Bannermen wouldn't have changed that. Every lord who arrived had armies as well, so its not like the, what, "Pre-Green"? Factions were planning to kill everyone if Rhaenys won. If a woman won, then the Maesters would just have something else to right about: a woman in high power. Also, Marwyn may not have spoken about the Dance in regards to the Civil War. They meant the Doom of Valyria. They saw Dragons visiting the Crownlands and such more often and decided to put a stop to it before Westeros was enslaved en-masse. Otto and Alicent, while aren't super friendly with dragons, knew their kids/grandkids are dragonriders. There was mever a Hightower plot to kill off the Dragons. If the Greens were able to crown Aegon with no issue, they wouldn't have had to deal with the Dragons. Mind you, the Blacks had their own forces kill off Dragons in ways that goes against this idea as well; (A Blackwood archer kills Tessarion instead of letting her heal, and Blackwoods were JUST fighting the Hightowers/Green forces.) And sure, not many Targaryens likely were good at math. Most of the Nobles weren't. Math and Magic arent opposites. I'd argue the contrary: they go hand in hand. Alchemy and Spell-Casting may take a smarter, mathematical mind for some to pull off or study. Hell, is Magic (in many cases) not just tech/biology that someone doesn't understand? The Grand Maester Conspiracy thing is given way too much power in every sense of the word. Yes it has some credence, but I promise you; If the Hightowers wanted to slay the Dragons and all the Targaryens, and they had a whole scheme set up down in Oldtown, it wouldn't have taken 300 years for House Targaryen to finally fall. I guarantee they'd have all been murdered a lot sooner. If House Hightower REALLY wanted to kill them off THIS badly to the point people think they've got Palpatine-levels of schemes and political evil, then... they'd do what they did last time: ask the Faceless men to do it 😅 The Dance wouldn't have happened if Aegon took the Throne without issue. Hell, doesn't even have to be the Hightowers to do it, it could've been anyone else who were in the same spot and saw the male heir taking precedence to be the way of things.

[@krishna5084]

I don't think we can blame Vaegon for the dance. The whole thing was Viserys's fault by not making Aegon heir or marrying him to Rhaenyra.

[@Botar48]

100% yeah. Viserys was a good choice and he had everything perfectly set out for him. Other than his brother being a wildcard he had the perfect reign. All he had to do was make his son the heir marry him with his daughter if he really wanted her on throne and that was it. Bro invented a succession crisis out of nothing.

[@lukebarroso449]

Hey Quinn wanted to say the content has been absolutely amazing really enjoying it since finding your channel a year ago. Keep up the great work. Vaegon being a double agent was interesting to learn about since he's always looked over.

[@MissRedZelda]

What I really dislike about the theory that the Maesters killed the dragons is that it takes away all the blame from the people actually involved - ie, The Targaryens. It's been said in the series that the only thing that can bring them down is themselves. By pinning the blame on the maesters, it basically absolves them of all fault. It turns what was once a saga about a powerful family flying too close to the sun and burning in the flame of their own hubris, into a boring standard black and white fantasy. Plus, the dragons are supposed to be symbols of the Us's WMD/nuclear bombs. I don't know why GRRM, who was a Vietnam War protester, would try to turn the Targaryens, who are for all intents and purposes colonisers, into the victims. Basically, I'm hoping Marwyn the Mage's claims are just a red herring.

[@strongbad4usean]

The theme of conflict between reason and faith/ mythology is so imbued in many of Georgia's previous writings that it's basically a given that they are involved. Though it very well may be a case of Cersei killing Robert where... Robert kind of did in fact get himself killed.

[@Botar48]

Fault is still with Targaryens if catalyst for Maesters turning against dragons is the Dance. They see how bad dragons can be so they killed the baby dragons still alived after Targaryen folly killed the strong ones. Even more so if Aegon III was actually cooperating with them to end dragons.

[@StartTheJoust]

Nice vid my guy! This is more of a Hightower power grab stuff but anyway: If I recall at 101ac Otto Hightower had already befriended Viserys and that probably was also one of the reasons why Oldtown was pushing for a council possibly through Vaegon. Rare opportunity to get a ”man inside” meaning kings tend to pick their friends (or so they think) for powerful positions like, i don’t know, to be a hand of the king. As Vaegon said ’no’ when offered the throne and suggested a council he must have known Viserys would be the prime or next to prime candidate to win the vote.

[@erisofliria]

bless you for this video quinn the gm!!!! ✨🤌🏻

[@jolinefields3460]

Great video love your takes on such great pieces of themes characters and the story elements that run wild thru out all of this story ❤🎉

[@mysteryjunkie9808]

Vaegon really said “If I can’t have a dragon then no one can!”

[@dirtysheepdog]

Another great theory video by Quinn the GM. I would love a deep dive into your thoughts on Marwin the mage and his motivations

[@crannogman6289]

Any chance Vaegon is neurodivergent? If he's autistic he might be obsessed with math and have little interest in family, or much else. Could explain his blunt speech and seeming lack of interest in human connection too

[@saikeenra]

He’s definitely autistically coded, yes. He and Stannis seem like two clear examples of high-functioning ASD people in a world that doesn’t know the concept of autism as such.

[@petermann673]

That may eventually bear out but I am unconvinced at his causing the Dance. Having shitty relations with your family probably doesn't make one orchestrate a fratricidal war. 🤣 HOWEVER, at that stage, I can see it being a concerted effort by the Maesters to try and rein in the Targs and if possible diminish the influence of dragons. Supporting Viserys would fit with that. But at that point, unless he had dragon dreams or something, they'd have little reason to think that a succession crisis would happen when he dies.

[@WineandFrom]

Just discovered your channel. Loving what I'm hearing so far.

[@Rhaenyssupporter]

The maesters would of also been against Rhaenys because she is a woman. They never took Alysanne seriously when she suggested allowing women to become maesters so I can see why they would attempt to push for a male heir rather than a female despite claiming in TWOIAF that Laenor (and by extension Rhaenys) had the best claim by primogeniture.

[@Hatypus]

4:45 Elysar said that Vaegon could not become a maester, but might have had what it took to be an Archmaester. Which is about being the master of a subject and teaching others, no serving lords involved. The three days later thing is when Jaehaerys summoned him to inform him that he would go to the citadel. 5:33 Whilst mathematics was presumably his specialty, given the yellow gold, we are also told he studied astronomy, alchemy and other things of the arcane.

[@revanius2213]

Wouldn't Vaegon not want Viserys really since he was the son of two of Vaegon's least favorite siblings, Baelon and Alyssa, and Viserys' brother Daemon, who at the time many would see as Viserys' heir, had all the traits Vaegon hated in his siblings. Rhaenys though, was from a brother he had no known trouble with. Plus Jaehaerys pretty much asked Vaegon who he thought should be the next monarch and Jaehaerys didn't need a council to choose his heir, Vaegon could have just told him to pick Viserys for the same reason Jaehaerys chose Baelon over Rhaenys when Aemon died. In the end I think Vaegon just suggested the most logical choice to show who the majority of the realm supported and if the Maesters were hoping to instigate conflict then maybe they should have chosen someone better than the cowardly idiot that was Orwyle to be Grand Maester. Also Vaegon would be Daeron's great-uncle.

[@QuinnTheGM]

I think Vaegon is shown to be pragmatic enough to pick the candidate without a dragon over the candidate with one, even if he liked that candidates’ parents less.

[@nunyabuisness9397]

He only had a beef with Alyssa not baelon and he’s never been shown enough to say he would be mad at the child of person who wronged him.

[@DarkKing009]

Vaegon Targaryen third son of King Jaehaerys the prince that was promised

[@zitrus9590]

Once again a very cool video thanks! I’m not quite sold on the idea that Vaegon in Grrm perspective is that important because although the math hint’s make sense, I personally feel that he just is not that important a character… The accounts we have of that time in the lens of Maesters ans Septons is very much bias and still Vaegon isn’t praised or anything he just is Vaegon, which is mediocre asf (by Targ/ Maester standards in this case). Like there are plenty of chains materials thats would serve to make a character more interesting/ valuable to the story than gold. I still feel like gold chains are like something Mace could do (even though Mace might be a genius lol).

[@aaroncohen2700]

What happens to maesters during sieges of castles and after them? Like I imagine the Tarbek and Reyne maesters were killed along with their houses but wouldn’t that anger the Citadel? Or is that just considered as coming with the territory.

[@QuinnTheGM]

That’s a great question, I’d imagine that’d vary based on whoever’s besieging the castle. I don’t see Tywin letting anyone go.

[@justsomedude5727]

The 2 examples I can think of are biased, when Theon took Winterfell Luwin stayed to advise him, but Theon was conflicted and didn't want to kill people he grew up with. Pycelle survived the sack of kings landed but he opened the gates for Tywin and seems to always have been a Lannister syncophant (Am I using that word right?)

[@Bessux]

Maesters are a useful resource. Kill a castle's previous maester? Good luck convincing the Citadel to send another maester to serve you.

[@JamieEgg-qs9mc]

@@justsomedude5727Not only did Pycelle survive Tywin’s sack, but Varys did too. I wonder what Varys may have offered Tywin so as not to become a head on a spike on a wall.

[@joshuaadams6565]

Was there any Maesters in Harrenhal when Aegon burnt it?

[@user-ti5cw1ug6l]

Ngl the maesters killing all the dragons and specifically Vaegon being resposible seems like a huge stretch especially since there were so many other key factors that went into the Dance that have nothing to do with Vaegon. Conflict between Rhaenys and Viserys for one definetly wasn't a factor. First, I have to point out that the whole purpose of The Great Council was to PREVENT immediate war between competing claimants, something it does successfully multiple times during the Targaryen reign. Establishing, or rather upholding, precedents does help in this regard. It's the right of Kings to name ANYONE they choose as heir that created more conflict. The Great Council of 101 turned an unclear succession into decades of peace because it gave Jaehaerys' successor something other than the king's mere word to support their absolute right to the throne. If it were not for Bloodraven The Great Council would've even brought the Blackfyres to the table and accept whatever decision was made. It's a good system! Viserys is the one who threw it all out the window entirely raising up Rhaenyra's otherwise non-existent claim to go against the 3 sons he sired who would have claims no matter what from birth. When claims conflict this hard conflict is basically inevitable. Second, if Vaegon was driven by a vendetta against his siblings it doesn't make sense that he choose Viserys. Viserys and Daemon are the sons of Baelon and Alyssa, the two siblings he would probably dislike the most. Also, if it was hatred against the Targaryen family that drove him then wouldn't it make more sense for him to favor Laenor VELARYON out of spite? Third, the results of the Great Council aren't exactly evidence of rigging by the maesters but more likely just reflection of actual views of most Westerosi lords at the time which we can define as 2 main factors. 1. They had a strong preference against child monarchs which is typical in a medieval setting. This clearly disadvantaged Laenor Velaryon and Maegor Brightflame. Perhaps skipping too many generations was also a factor though probably aslo because it usually meant child monarchs. This might be why Jaehaerys offered the crown to his sons including Vaegon before considering grandchilden. 2. They preffered the claimants of the direct male line.

[@norbix-od7rt]

thats interesting couse i originally thought that the reign of Jeahearys Targaryen was so safe from the grand maester conspiracy becouse he had a son at the citadel so this video gave me some thinking yet there is an issue that the only person really that mocked him was princess Allysa . Yes he fought Daella stupid but essentially it was his foult since it was Vaegon that first mocked his simple minded sister one would think that after so many years he wouldnt hold a grudge for like these 2 instances by Alyssa also the text doesnt try to imply that Vaegon had bad relations with his older brothers he just kinda didnt care and if anything he would be a little anoyed at Baelon during their traning but when the king sent him to the citadel he was happy so i dont think that he would help to put his family on demisetho i guess can be either way its Fire And Blood we are talking about after all meaby Mushroom would tell us

[@sinthoras1917]

I mean, he already almost sounds like Faegon

[@ingen_nate_kenny6588]

I am glad you mentioned mathematics vs. magic. Mathematics is (generally viewed as) being clear, replicable, factual, and (in theory) anyone can learn; it is the natural opposite of magic, which is far more vague and inconsistent, which only some are gifted with. Both are a path to power that require practice - math to the mundane but crucial power of economics and engineering, magic to the more fantastic power of prophecy and other magical things. In the main series, Littlefinger is the embodiment of mathematics as a sword of power as opposed to characters like Bloodraven or Melisandre, for whom magic is their sword.

[@aditghifari5039]

The Dragon who fires math from his mouth

[@LusiaEyre]

I would actually like a video on the topic from you as a Maester Conspiracy sceptic. The arguments behind it, quotes used to back it and your opinion on pro and anti arguments.

[@Based_Chameleon]

I hope we are going to hear of Vaegon and Saera in Fire and Blood part 2. For all we know, they could still be alive during the reign of Aegon III.

[@Jayp1980]

Great video as always

[@philippeblais8594]

Although if we follow your idea that Vaegon hates magic and drsgons. Then i don't see Vaegon interacting warmly with Daeron. Since Daeron is a eragon rider. He rides Tessarion. A blue she dragon.

[@QuinnTheGM]

I think he’d view Daeron as a piece to be manipulated. The best way to kill a dragon is with another dragon, so having influence on a rider, especially one who’s half Hightower, could be quite useful.

[@MeleysRQ]

The argument in favor of maestres still fighting against Targaryens (at least in recent years) is how all the key houses were planed to have marriages between them by the maestres. Brandon and Cat, Eddard and Robert being close to Jon Arryn, Robert and Lyanna, Lysa and Jaime, when they were waiting for Viserys to be a woman the Martells were looking around other houses, Cersei and Oberyn was a posibility as Elia and Hightower.

[@zachhall8397]

There is a case that Vaegon was looking to upend the targaryen supremacy by making the heir a vote. The problem with the idea that he is using the Council as a way to take out the dragons and the dance being proof, is the outcome of the Council and the causes of the Dance. In 101 the count swayed in the direction it seemed most of Westeros and Jahaerys himself was leaning. If anything it was solidifying the line to come and showing Rhaenys she would not win a Civil War if she tried to contest. The factions of the dance are completely different to the factions of 101, to the point that both sides of 101 fight with the Black's during the dance. The Greens use the Great Council as a way to push for Aegon but the council isn't what split the family, it is the Hightowers. Unless the Hightowers got really lucky and could guess that Viserys would only have a daughter then a son from another later marraige that was half Hightower so they could use the Council as precedent... the council is not a direct cause of the family breaking apart and the dying of the dragons. Just a political tool that could further a Civil War with extremely certain circumstances that wouldn't pass for at least another handful of years.

[@0bskureference]

This is a solid theory!

[@akeelyaqub2538]

Dont blame the maesters tbh. I wouldnt want a bunch of several ton giant lizards flying around that can burn whole castles, armies and towns to ash and all controlled entirely by one family, whose members are more often than not, greedy, power hungry or downright psychotic. The dance of dragons was the worst war in westeros history with countless casualites and the primary cause for its level of devastation was the dragons. Also prophecy in asoiaf usually causes more grief to its recievers than relief. Misinterpreted visions can cause mayhem in the realm, people trying to force a prophecy end up causing major damage to themselves and others so the world could do without prophecy. Same with glass candles, invading peoples dreams is dangerous. Imagine invading a kings dream and driving him to madness. The realm would suffer heavily. For story purposes of course magic and dragons is cool af. But for someone living in westeros, magic would be a nigutmare to deal with. Not to mention, the Others, who unlike dragons, pose an existential threat to ALL of mankind.

[@nachosama05]

2:31 I always think that the video is over when you do this bit

[@LexIconLS]

I love that Vaegon was so boring, even as an archmaester, he basically became the realm's most glorified accoutant.

[@ohnoitsaxel5150]

Vaegon is one of my favorite characters, it's so nice to see him in the middle of his very own conspiracy theory.

[@dr3dg352]

Ngl I kinda like the idea of the maesters of the Citadel being similar to the Syndicate from The X-Files. x) I'm sure that's how Lady Barbrey Dustin perceives them...

[@hclw3589]

You say his potential motivation align with anti magic and that he hates his family. But I say how? Vaegon only motivation is to be left alone the only time he acts is when forced to by others. Vaegon insulted daella because he didn’t want a stupid wife it was rude undoubtably but he just spoke his mind on the matter before he was forced to do something he didn’t want. He wasn’t confrontational with allysa She had the beef with him. Shit even him recommending the great council was because he was asked by his father. If anyone used the great council to get what he wants then it was probably jahearhys.

[@nunyabuisness9397]

Exactly I wouldn’t look to vaegon as the guy to pin the blame on for suggesting the council. Jaehaerys was way more likely to be the one to twist the council for himself and get visery’s the male heir he wanted on the throne. Vaegon really had no stock in the race to become heir and while Quinn say he might’ve wanted someone without a dragon on the throne it was never said he really cared about not having a dragon.

[@ccorvid]

I think it could be that, being betrothed to a younger sibling that he didn't like very much, while also not liking his older siblings much either, probably just really disillusioned him at a very young age to this weird, "all-powerful" (aka supremacist & incestuous) dragon monarchy that he was born into, and he maybe just kinda realized how fucked up the whole thing is, and subsequently distanced himself from the whole thing intentionally, aand when his chance came to institute at least Some kinda "democracy" into the system, he took his shot! lol. he was definitely a bit of an ass to his siblings, but I think I always read that as a bit of the 'tism comin through lol. especially since it did usually seem pretty reactive, like y'all mentioned, instead of him like, maliciously instigating things. tho I do also think that maybe some of the misogyny he learned from his dad/society often colored his actions as well :/

[@rafanando4207]

Also, having Vaegon in the citadel would mean the maesters have information about the dragons, that would've been useful in the storming of the dragonpit and later the possible poisoning of the dragons

[@joaoferreira3007]

Vaegon were the best targaryen the only one to see how fucked up was his family and said fuck this shit, i will do mathematics and die paecefully in my bed.

[@netojader]

LETS GO

[@AttemptedJustice]

Imaging a bullying chant akin to “dragon nerds can’t do maths”

[@bird-mann952]

yellow gold? maybe he’s lacking a dragon gene and envious of his family. sounds like he tried to fit the part as well as he could, trying and failing to train with the sword

[@oltihajdaraj8682]

If the Dragons are killed by the Maester it reply only make sense if they did after the dance. To manipulate events before the dance and get most of them killed is highly implausible. But it would be much more believable if after the dance convinced by all of the death the dragons caused maester simply poisoned Morning and the last few eggs. Possibly with the help of Aegon III.

[@archmeasterjackimer6217]

To me it seems unlikely that the whole Order of Maesters is in a conspiracy against magic and dragons etc. it's probably afew cliques of certain Maesters

[@QuinnTheGM]

My thinking as well.

[@vitesserikke]

Rhaenys was not the candidate though, that was Laenor through her (I do not think we should keep to show cannon). Furthermore, while it is a cool idea that Vaegon had a role to play in whatever Marwyn is alluding to, I do not think this is the great council. Laenor would be reconciled with Viserys through marrying Rhaenyra, and the Velaryons choose the side of Viserys choice anyway..... If the great council was indeed a ploy by the maesters, I think it is way more likely this was to destabilize the Targaryens, rather than favoring one party/side

[@TowelsKingdom]

The fact Barbrey Dustin calls them "Grey rats" says something

[@Varatil]

Liked for "targaryens can't math"

[@pattonramming1988]

It's highly unlikely that the Maesters Conspiracy began with Vaegon the Citadel is based out of Oldtown the seat of the Hightowers who supported the Faith Militant during the regin of Maegor it's likely that Otto was an accomplice in the conspiracy given the complex history the Hightowers have with House Targaryen it is likely that the Dance of Dragons was one sequence in a series of events that led to the death of the dragons

[@johncribbin95]

If Vaegon was casted in HotD who would play him? Thanks

[@QuinnTheGM]

Somebody old and evil seeming. My gut hoped for Jeremy irons but I’m going to think on that

[@johncribbin95]

@@QuinnTheGM Great idea. Anthony Hopkins sprung to mind for me.

[@veritasinvicta8128]

While most lords do trust the Maesters Barbary Dustin doesn't trust them, "Grey Rats" she calls them. Oldtown has three heads itself. The Citadel, Starry Sept, and the Hightower, and all three work together to advance the Andal agenda that seeks to dominate the Valyrians and First Men.

[@tiopablo2784]

I really hope they introduce him and even Saera in HotD season two but I doubt it

[@williamleo9704]

Ngl, my girl Alyssa had no chill at all.😂😂

[@Sharkplayingpool39]

I love Vaegon

[@Sr.Pirulito]

4:32 You may not see the value, but future gender studies in the ASOIAF world will love that.

[@keirangrant1607]

I have a sibling that absolutely hates my success. RThey'll pretend to be my friend, and behind my back do all sorts of ish. So I can totally believe Vaegon would get to a point where he would betray his family.

[@hclw3589]

Vaegon never pretended to be anything ever what you saw from him was what you got . He was never once seen to play the role and act nice.

[@danielwilliamson6180]

Vaegon Targaryen looks like Nicholas Lyndhurst.

[@fabvz5436]

This was a great theory, Vaegon betraying his father and making a "fair" choosing system thar the maesters could rigged is very likely now that i think about it

[@Kemot300]

8:30 - "It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes." - Joseph Stalin

[@sinthoras1917]

I'd like a full source for that. When is stalin supposed to have said that?

[@vfanon]

@@sinthoras1917”Never believe a quote posted on the internet.” - Albert Einstein

[@jonathonjohnson1227]

A scribe I believe writes things, including messages! Lmao

[@ayiza8511]

This theory is such a stretch he was a little mocked and all of a sudden he wanted to to kill every member of his house grandnephew/nieces he had never meet too. Doubt if

[@Methus3lah]

Math is the opposite of dragons

[@ashleyofnaath]

I've always looked at Vaegon with a side-eye...either he directly undermined his family by suggesting the Council to his father, or his indifference towards his family allowed his order to use him to do their bidding. Of course with the introduction of Aegon's prophecy in HOTD, one had to wonder if King Jaehaerys was amenable to the suggestion because he was concerned about rebellions to Rhaenys' rule interfering with her preparedness to fight the Others, so he was uneasy about appointing her outright. Maybe he thought to leave it in fate's hands, and if Rhaenys won the vote then surely she would've been the Gods' choice to confront the pending apocalypse. Maybe lol. Great video Quinn!!

[@hasanmatloob3788]

could it be that the Shephard who ordered the attack on the Dragon Pit was Vaegon himself?

[@johndinobuff583]

I don't know but Vaegon does seem to give a sassy gay vibes but closeted. His behavior, especially, remarks especially towards his sisters, does point out to a sassy gay friend everyone has.

[@hclw3589]

Huh? Where did you get that from what we saw from the story? The most we got from Vaegon about his sexuality is that he’s ace as he had no interest in romance. The only behavior we got from his interactions with his sister is that he didn’t like them and didn’t care about them.

[@cadencumming7795]

My man Vaegon the Sexless 🫡

[@katiemartin6991]

Vaegon the Volcel lol

[@mtverv]

While I agree with you on Vaegon for the most part where you err is with the phrase “broader Maester Conspiracies”. You are correct in premise just in the wrong depth. It’s not a SMALLER Conspiracy it’s a BIGGER Conspiracy that also includes The Faith of the Seven AND House Hightower. Not a single Generation of the Targaryen Dynasty went by without some form of weird Deaths as well as some type of pushing Targaryens against one another by suspiciously Reach and Oldtown connected persons. The level of Stillbirths and weird Birth related deaths for the Mothers is way higher in the Royal Family than in any other in the Kingdom. The Hightowers don’t seem to have any trouble, the Lannisters either, or the Starks. It’s only the Targs who have constant issues and while some amount of extra shenanigans is to be accepted with the higher rate of incest it’s way more than the margin of error there would indicate.

[@GusEdison-m8m]

Ruby Mountain

[@thiagof414]

I think that mentioning "how GRRM write conspiracies" and only considering something on ASOIAF is misguided. He wrote about HUGE conspiracies in his works. 🤷

[@jakehoffman8045]

Imagine Marwen is just a conspiracy theorist

[@mahadbahad9895]

vaegon is itachi basically

[@fadillangston9797]

This assumes he never grew up, and only thought about that incident over his studies.

[@glamourweaver]

But anything though, the Great Council delayed the Dance another generation.

[@Ace-990]

Spoiler - Weren’t a few dragons killed in the dragon pit by a mob? Feels like that’s something someone could instigate.

[@Paul2hip8]

Quinn, please please please stop improving your way through these videos. I love your content and the variety of topics in asoiaf you cover. But there are so many times where you explicitly say you don’t know something or like “I could be mistaken” or even saying excuse me after a cough. You have the benefit of being able to record a section. Mistakes are okay, but you shouldn’t intentionally publish something that leaves your viewers wondering. The one that happened this video was about how Vaegon and Daeron are related. It takes you a few minutes to find the knowledge and fix a section, but once it’s published, all of us viewers have to deal with it. Even leaving things out is okay, but it should be done intentionally. Anyways, keep up the content, I’ll keep clicking when I see thumbnails….

[@369tfs]

I watched a thoery video, that the Maesters biasedly chose Viserys instead of Princess Rhaenyra because he didnt ride a dragon and the Maesters hated dragons.

[@MaesterGreen]

I completely forgot about Vaegon😂😂😂

[@saberserpent1134]

Really though, how do you have the luck of being born Targaryen, and CHOOSING not to bond with a dragon?? Weird guy.

[@MarionRadle-i1n]

Corwin River

[@ayiza8511]

Not sure about this theory. Did Veagon just make the logical decision did he even know Viserys or Rheanys? And what difference Does it make if Veagon is blacks k it green anyway. Ageon ir Rheanys they are both dragons and dragon riders so are their children

[@aidanmahoney9865]

Vaegon? More like Gaelord

[@BertieMoore-q9d]

88610 Breitenberg Route

[@Farb_dk]

Yall reading too much into it. Bros just artistic

[@lip4973]

Autistic or artistic?

[@Farb_dk]

@@lip4973 yes 😐

[@lip4973]

@@Farb_dk couldn't have said it better myself.

[@gregveder965]

Vaegon W

[@CorvoThan]

the great council avoided a civil war not created one.

[@StevensonLionel-m9y]

Lowe Lakes

[@KOCChristian]

Broke: Vizzy T was picked cause he’s a man Woke: he was picked cause he didn’t have a dragon

[@WoolleyLeopold]

46756 Zboncak Roads