BABYLON 5 The Gathering - DID IT SUCK?

[@RowanJColeman]

Subscribe to Bean Brain here - kzbin.info/door/uRTWD6C2lqy-y-0HMwRoNQ

[@gimmeboobes]

Oh, and Arthur C. Clark's Rama saga with Gentry Lee.

[@Foebane72]

The original Gathering is shite beyond belief, you should've watched the second version with better scenes and new music by Christopher Franke instead.

[@CaesiusX]

I was just going too ask about the link. Thanks! _"Brain and brain! What is brain?!"_

[@deegx7916]

I'll be keeping an eye on it now. Good stuff on this channel.

[@tomsmith6107]

Delete this as spam, but at least look at before commenting on the CGI. ;) The pilot movie won an emmy, so someone must have thought it wasn't that rough. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aGWke4Nma55mo8U

[@priest2001]

It's very depressing how many of the cast have died. I can't see Vir's smiling face now without a sense of melancholy.

[@HM2SGT]

Andreas, Jerry, Richard, Stephen, Jeff, Michael...😩😕

[@Norbert_Sattler]

@@HM2SGT Don't forget Tim Choate (Zathras) who was the first to go from us in a motorcycle accident if I remember correctly.

[@HM2SGT]

Yeah, I thought about adding everybody but initially I thought I just stick to principal cast. There’s actually quite a roll call of supporting cast that have gone exploring beyond the rim…😕

[@gateauxq4604]

I miss them all terribly but I’ll forever be crushed by Michael’s death because of the secret JMS swore to hide. Anyone near me who says he was terrible gets a knuckle sandwich.

[@AFnord]

That's really sad :( I did not know that so many of them had passed away, but after looking at IMDB, many of them passed away at a shockingly early age. Biggs only became 44 years old. Three other cast members died at the age of 60, one at 63, and one at 59.

[@AndrewLuke]

I love how we get G'Kar set up as scheming villian here, and Londo as mostly harmless. And Morden as... wait, what??

[@michaelcarney6280]

G'Kar ended up being one of my favourites his speeches use to bring tears to my eye's. Like when Narn falls to the Centauri after they bombard it with Mass driver's and the Episode we're he leaves with Lyta Alexander

[@steveaustin2686]

Yes, Ed Wasser was in The Gathering, but as a technician in the C&C. jms and company liked his work and he tested for Mr Morden. They loved his test and he became Mr Morden for the rest of the show. There were other actors who played multiple roles in the show as well. Julie Caitlin Brown played Na'Toth in S1 and came back as a human lawyer for Sheridan when he was framed in There All Honor Lies in S2. The League of Non-Aligned Worlds aliens were played by the alien cast on B5. It was a group of actors, 30 or so IIRC, who did the sculpting for the full alien makeup, so they did a lot of the aliens on the show. If you brought in a new alien race, the makeup department just had to sculpt the masks as the actors all had already done the molds. Upon re watching the series, I noticed that the Ambassador of one League race, would be a side character for another League race.

[@michaelcarney6280]

@@steveaustin2686 always the same guy played a Drazi and a Narn

[@steveaustin2686]

@@michaelcarney6280 Yep, the 30 or so alien cast were tapped to play a lot of the alien races. It is why you can hear the Drazi ambassador (Kim Strauss) as a Narn, or Markab, Minbari, etc sometimes.

[@michaelcarney6280]

@@steveaustin2686 thanks I was just trying to look him up always enjoyed any character he played. Especially when he was the Drazi in Purple/Green

[@paulgoffin8054]

I have to disagree about the quality of the CGI. Remember, we watched this on 24" PAL or NTSC TV sets. Maybe 28" for rich people... At the time Star Trek was still using models as they hadn't worked out how to do CGI until Voyager. At the time this CGI was breathtaking.

[@AFnord]

It was cool back then, but it has aged far worse than Star Trek in this regard. Babylon 5 is still the superior show, in my opinion, but the special effects don't hold up as well as many of its contemporaries.

[@paulgoffin8054]

@@AFnord Trek used physical models for DS9. So the very limited effects they did look better - but they were very limited. Mostly establishment shots outside DS9. A few starships on viewscreens, etc. B5 had huge variations in ship design, ships modified as the series went on. Organic ships, etc. Much more ambitious.

[@AFnord]

@@paulgoffin8054 Oh, I'm not denying that the effects employed in other shows at the time were more limited, but quite often when you're trying to be at the technical forefront, particularly when you don't have a huge budget to back things up with, things will quickly start to look a bit bad. And B5 suffers from this. Even by mid 90's standards, the 3D models and textures are rough. Babylon 5 is still one of the best sci-fi shows ever made, despite this, but I feel like the show would have aged a bit better had they tried to convey things more with set design than 3D effects (and the sets on the show were genuinely very good at conveying who the different alien races were, and what was important in their cultures).

[@T0ghar]

@@AFnord The CG models were a lot better than shown in the series. They had to render the shots for the show in lower res for cost reasons. A member of the Star Citizen fan community with the nickname Athagen worked on B5 back in the day and now does fan render videos (kzbin.info/www/bejne/mnm0oZuljKlpms0). He explained the CG work on B5 during his twitch streams.

[@AFnord]

@@T0ghar That's a pretty common practice, make high quality models (and textures), and then downscale it to something more reasonable to work with. That happens with movies, TV shows and video games.

[@simonoleary9264]

The gathering did get a brief reference in season 5. Lyta: Ambassador, you once asked my about my pleasure threshold. G'Kar: Yes? Lyta: I found out I don't have one.

[@gateauxq4604]

Also the reference to Lyta coming back and why and why she hates Psycorps. Honestly Lyta’s presence in the rest of the series as well as her relationship with the Vorlons alone validates the pilot as having been real in-universe. Dr Kyle gets a few mentions as well. Its just the rougher spots and inconsistent character traits that are brushed off.

[@Karajorma]

@@gateauxq4604 A possible conceit of Babylon 5 is that we're not seeing the actual thing. Instead, we're seeing an ISN documentary (as mentioned in the final episode). Obviously, they couldn't get the pilot episode quite as historically correct but by the time they got round to the show itself someone had seen that Delenn was still on Minbar and sent someone to ask some questions.

[@SkylerLinux]

Also in season one, with the whole in the commanders mind

[@Karajorma]

@@SkylerLinux It gets referenced multiple times. They mention it in Season 2 when they mention the Vorlon Empire attacking the station.

[@fredziffle2742]

It is a pity that today's computing power is used as a standard to compare against its pioneering incorporation. The accomplishments of the CGI in the movie and series are in fact astonishingly impressive. Read up on just how innovative the film crew was in incorporating pretty much off-the-shelf consumer-grade computing 'power.' Hint: add "Amiga" to your search for the wonder of it all.

[@SkylerLinux]

TNG was airing as as this was filmed, and DS9 was concurrent

[@misterangel8486]

All beginnings are difficult. I actually liked this movie. The graphics, ah well, I am from the sixties, for me it was a giant leap forward. 😂

[@ClumzorZ]

I didn't like the movie when I first saw it but I went back to it later after loving the series and in retrospect I liked it a lot more.

[@ToonamiT0M]

Just imagine if B5 got an HD restoration with new CGI rendering.

[@Michael_ORourke]

That would be great but unfortunately I don't think anybody would fund that. DS9 and Voyager can't get HD masters and they're more popular.

[@ToonamiT0M]

@@Michael_ORourke There are a lot of great classic SciFi shows that deserve restoration, but yah, the cost vs profit isn't worth it for the studios.

[@kirishima638]

Even if you re-did all the space scenes (not gonna happen), you're not going to be able to redo the live action effects and the costumes and sets look very dated now. It would literally be cheaper and better to remake the show from scratch/

[@kirishima638]

@Roy Scheider in a hamster suit Exactly. You're better off making new shows, new IPs, new stories, instead of recycling old stuff. B5 should definately be left alone.

[@svenzo1199]

I remember reading in JMS' autobiography how utterly out of his depth the director of the Gathering was, he came from doing crime films, so he used the same approach, like using the horrible xenon lights that were way too weak and made everybody look dreary and tired, so they had to bump the brightness to way too high levels in post, which caused some characters to literally glow. But upon rewatch, it really isn't as bad as JMS made it out to be.

[@popmonika]

I think it's important to remember that the gathering and the next episode"midnight at the firing line" were one year apart and in that time jms obviously used the time to flesh out the idea.

[@AndrewLuke]

I like how Rowan brought attention to where the lighting works, and much of it does look fantastic. ie. some of the pulsating, the noir aspects when not over-done.

[@williamwatson4354]

Its no coincidence that in addition to the Gathering, the director is responsible for 5 of the worst episodes of season 1.

[@AndrewLuke]

@@williamwatson4354 That'd be Richard Compton, and the episodes Grail, Believers, The War Prayer, Infection and Midnight on the Firing Line, but the latter is a brilliant piece of work. Sets up the tension and intrigue in tune with the strengths to come. The others, yeah, I can take or leave them and it's mostly leave.

[@michaellewis1545]

All the character growth that we see in Babylon 5 retroactively make me like the rougher season one characterizations off all the characters.

[@SiriusMined]

They set up G'Kar as a caricature as on purpose as a misdirection. We're meant to think he's Snidley Whiplash, the villain who will go "oh, you guys" and storm off every episode. Boy, were were fooled. One of the best characters on TV, ever.

[@TheDetailsMatter]

The graphics rendering for the B5 pilot may look a bit similar to a videogame, but bear in mind that the original graphics platform for the pilot & early episodes was the Video Toaster. Graphics quality showed a marked improvement when they upgraded to -Lightworks.- LightWave. Still...at the time of the pilot, the major television SF competitor was Star Trek The Next Generation, which was still depicting space battles using physical models on wires. You watch the D Enterprise mix it up with 3 Klingon warbirds. The Enterprise just sits there firing torpedoes and beam weapons while the Klingons approach sssoo ssslloowwllyy.... And then you watch B5 launching 8 starfuries to fight 10 raiders, dogfighting all around the station, and one fury gets tired of being shot at from behind, clutches his gyros, spins 180 degrees on his axis and pastes the raider with torpedoes at point blank range, and then goes on to find new playmates.... There is simply no comparison. Interestingly, JMS originally pitched the B5 concept to Paramount as a Star Trek spinoff, and although they didn't nibble, it wasn't long after the B5 pilot aired that Star Trek took the hint and started using CGI ships rather than models.

[@steveaustin2686]

Mainly because you could do more and still save money over models. jms and crew also saved money by having sets pull double duty as multiple rooms. The hallway color strips were removable, so having a hallway in red sector, green sector, blue sector, etc, was just removing the color strips. jms said that B5 was made on like a third to half the budget of a ST ep.

[@Davegvg3576]

Totally on the money with the comparison to physical models. How did the graphics improve when they went to lightworks? Do you mean lightwave? Lightworks was an NLE. I sold a bunch of stuff to Netter digital and foundation, and also worked with the digital magic guys composting Trek. At the time the CG was world class - well many scenes were, not all were created equal. I was the Discreet logic guy, we sold netter a flint to do the bulk of the compositing work

[@TheDetailsMatter]

Dave Sampson. Lightwave, yes. Sorry, Autocorrect is not our friend.

[@Reyfox1]

I had the Video Toaster and Lightwave came with it.

[@TheDetailsMatter]

So did I, and LightWave was absent. I assume it was an aftermarket upgrade.

[@thenuclearsandwich]

The Gathering got me hooked into B5 when it originally aired. I couldn't wait for more but it took so long before the series actually aired I was afraid it got canceled before it got started. Thank goodness it got green lighted. On another note I find it very funny Kosh allowed himself to get into that situation or that it was even possible given what we learned about the Vorlons throughout the series.

[@Karajorma]

Kosh has a long time to chat with Valen. You do have to wonder how much of that is him actually letting it happen.

[@steveaustin2686]

The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5 is a great place to go for jms comments on the series. jms was on the social media of its time and answered fan questions and explained some things that he didn't have time in episodes to explain with dialog. In case of the alien sector, here is jms talking about the thinking of it and why you do not see it later. www.midwinter.com/lurk/ fans - The alien section looked like a zoo! jms - First, we decided that wasn't a right look for the alien sector, and that's the corridor we blew up at the end. But the reason it was designed that way is important. Your reaction -- don't the aliens have any privacy? -- is a very human, and specifically a very *western* point of view. Our feeling at the time was, why should alien quarters look at all like human quarters? Shouldn't they have a different perspective than typical Western-style hotels? (In some degree, the quaters were patterned after Japanese mini-hotels, where you get basically a slightly larger coffin-like setup, which you crawl into like a torpedo tube, with a window at one end, which has a curtain, a TV over your head, and so on. What we discovered is that many people ask for more alien aliens, but when we delivered on that, were asked why these things weren't more like what we expect, why aren't they like human quarters? It's really a losing battle.) The other point on this is that if you look closely, there are back areas accessible to residents, which can in particular be seen in the insectoid/antennae'd character's quarters. The idea was that it would be sort of a front porch, where for lack of much else to do, you'd sit out on the porch, watching the passing parade.

[@barretblake]

Holy crap. As many times as I've watched this, I never noticed that Ed Wasser (Morden) was in the CNC crew in the pilot.

[@ZlothZloth]

JMS mentioned it in the DVD's commentary track, or I wouldn't have noticed, either. (He also mentions the gorilla suit bartender.)

[@DavidGreen_au]

Impossible to really disagree with your assessment of this 'episode', but I remember when I first watched this on its first terrestrial broadcast, I was blown away by the world building, the SFX, and the whole concept. It made Babylon 5 a 'must see' for each week, and great conversation pieces at work the following days. The story arc implementation really put it ahead of the episodic Star Trek at the time. … urgh, the Zoo scene, I mean alien sector, I can see the point in illustrating diversity, but the implementation, as you mentioned, was appalling. That was, for me, the weakest part of the episode. The high point? The Vorlon fleet, with weapons charged, coming through the jump-gate.

[@icecold9511]

Actually that vorlon scene made no sense. They knew he was Valen. They needed him, and probably would have been warned about it.

[@demos113]

I remember getting the pilot from the vid shop i worked in back in 1993 and compared to what was available in the UK at the time it was a game changer and had me hooked. :-)

[@jasonblalock4429]

4:42 Strong loyalty to her friends? Heh. Word of God is that she was the one aiding the saboteur, or at least would have been if that subplot hadn't been dropped due to the casting changes. (Although JMS also suggested she might have been compelled somehow.)

[@mahatmarandy5977]

Interestingly, JMS said several times while the show was on the air that he'd hoped to revisit Laurel Takishima at some later date. Have her show up for one episode or whatever. Also, it's rumored that President Clarke's Personal Physician (Name escaping me now) who was on the run and hiding out in B5 was originally intended to be Dr. Kyle. That may not be true - conflicting stories - but it does *feel* right, even if it isn't.

[@CosmoShidan]

Sadly, Tamlyn Tomita quit after the pilot. She wasn't comfortable with the role at the time, or what JMS had planned by making her shoot Garibaldi at the end of season one. Nor the big reveal that she was suppose to be the spy instead of Talia.

[@mahatmarandy5977]

CosmoShidan that's probably true. It's also true that Warners didn't like her, insisted on redubbing her lines, and had her cut down to the bare minimum of screen time. After that, the mole became Catherine Sakai, but then Sinclair left and I *think* it became someone else briefly until the actress announced she was leaving, and it became Talia. It was just a huge mess. Then portions of it got reused with Garibaldi, for a different purpose.

[@CosmoShidan]

@@mahatmarandy5977 TOH, I rather liked Laurel Takashima more than Susan Ivanova. I always felt that there was some elements of the latter's personal life that was lacking; whereas the former we saw that she was great at playing the flute, enjoyed music and was a refined personality in that manner. It's a matter of opinion, but I really felt that despite Susan's backstory, she was kind of bland personality-wise when compared to Takashima. A shame that the creative team decided the fate of her character was to be made an antagonist; I really would not have liked that, and it would have sucked imo.

[@mahatmarandy5977]

CosmoShidan oh, no, having her be an antagonist would have been brilliant! You have this character that you grow to really like, and then have them betray everyone, that is way way way more impactful than a meh kinda character turning on everyone. Oh, Zack Allen is the mole? Well, who cares. Talia being the mole was similarly unimpressive: she was about the least used and least interesting character on the show. So I would have loved if Laurel turned bad. Particularly if it was revealed to us the viewers at the end of season one, but the rest of the cast didn't know about it until A season or two later. Then you get all that great anxiety of them letting her in on their plans well we know that she is not trustworthy, and maybe a couple I have good episodes of her desperately trying to hide it when I almost catch on. Stuff like that. It could've been brilliant. And while I think Ivanova is more fun, and funnier, and she was one of the few actresses in the mid 90s who could pull off the tough chick thing without being cringingly awful, I do agree that she was not particularly interesting. Acted like that she was a semi practicing Russian Jew, which is never really represented in science fiction, so that was nice. But apart from that there wasn't a ton about her that was interesting

[@CosmoShidan]

@@mahatmarandy5977 Though, at the time, it would have been bad for someone of Japanese descent to depicted as the traitor within, because it would have been quite racist. I.e. this would have echoed the anti-Japanese sentiment of WWII, which in turn would spark outrage as the implication is that all Asian are untrustworthy. This sentiment was shared by Joel de la Fuente, who starred in Space Above and Beyond, where his character was depicted as a traitor. He had this to say 5 years after the show was cancelled: "Whenever I see Asians in military uniform, I cannot help but recall common images of Asians from the Vietnam War and World War II. They were "yellow-bellied cowards" who took the lives of loyal Americans. They were treacherous and crafty, impossible to gauge. Wang could be seen as all of these stereotypes, I thought. Even though this ignores the fact that the Americans they were killing had invaded their country and napalmed their children, but people tend to leave out the important details..." Joel de la Fuente This could have worked, however, if they cast Warren Keffer as Japanese, so we have a good Asian character and a bad Asian character in Laurel. Now with that out of the way, my other gripe is, what would Laurel be doing with Garibaldi in the location? I thought at the time, it made sense that one of Garibaldi's own men would shoot him, as it's someone who works closely with him.

[@StounyCZ]

Thanks for the video. There is a special edition of the movie with tighter editing, Christopher Franke's score and upgraded CGI. Worth a look.

[@scottlyttle5586]

Morden at CNC.. yeah, I was at Dragon Con, I think in 1998 (or 99), and Ed Wasser was a guest.. he did a little Q&A with us, and one fan brought it up that he was in the pilot.. Ed immedately stood up and did that same position from the pilot against the wall..

[@techkev140]

Thanks for this vid really good trip down memory lane. My recollection was of every episode having something that was either referenced in later episodes or footage that was actually reused to demonstrate its significance. It all added to the rich tapestry of the story. Off the top of my head from the pilot, the series references the Vorlons, Dr Kyle and the all important Minbari line "there is a hole in your mind" along with the G'kar's attempt the secure telepath DNA. That "hole in your mind" resurfaces in season 1 episode "...and the sky full of stars" one of my favourite episodes along with season 2's title episode "The coming of shadows"

[@supsup335]

Imagine Takashima, Ivanova and Delen Commanding Starships..... The Galaxy will burn

[@demogorgonzola]

"Boom. Sooner or later. BOOM!" :)

[@sethzwicker3631]

Takashima was originally the traitor who shoots Garibaldi in the back instead of "Jack". So we still would have gotten Ivonova eventually.

[@gateauxq4604]

It wouldn’t be ‘he is behind me’ it’d be ‘he is behind US’ ooooo fucking shivers

[@JackWard66]

Thank you thank you thank you for liking Star Trek Enterprise. As I said before I love that series as my favourite spinoff from the original series. And that you love Babylon 5 only raises you more in my esteem :)

[@countroshculla]

I love Season 3 of Enterprise as well. It's when I started loving the show a lot more than I did. On it's initial run on cable tv here in India, I stopped watching the show sometime after the first few episodes of season 2 (and mostly because I didn't watch much tv at the time anyways, since I had a longer commute to work and I only got Sundays off). I picked up the show on reruns in 2010 and loved it a lot more and season 3 became a big fav of mine.

[@bradleypotts9865]

It looks like you saw the original version. There is a remastered version, with updated special effects and tighter editing. JMS also got rid of the alien Sector Zoo and some cut footage was put back in to make up the time.

[@residentgrey]

An interesting twist on the sci-fi genre is Stephen Stasheff's Warlock series, where he artfully frames fantasy elements like magic and certain creatures from a spacefaring society's state of mind and general sensibility. I also enjoyed many of Brian Lumley's books too. Lumley framed vampires in a way to totally meld the fantastic and alien that I love to this day, and the Tyre I also was totally absorbed by as I read that section of the series (I still need to read #12 onward, the Tyre are in the Vampire World arc of #4-6). One worked in fantasy while the other took on the monster movie while also doing much more in both cases. The blending concept continues to inspire my own writing and has since childhood.

[@Mark01962]

I remember avoiding this video in 94 for sometime and when I eventually saw it I was knocked over. I'd never seen scifi like this. I copied the rental and watched it again and again. I loved the characters, visuals and universe building which were ahead of its time. Then when I found out it was to be a series I was so happy and never disappointed. When watching this I didn't care or complain about visuals..they were state of the art at least for TV CGI. By 90s standards it was The Expanse or Battlestar Galactica.

[@Norbert_Sattler]

Remember that the effects were literally done on the CG departments homecomputers for the pilot and early episodes. Also they couldn't just use something already existing, but were actually pioneering many of the techniques. I think that's one of the greatest tragedies of Babylon 5, that this show was so important for early CGI work and barely anyone knows about it. Star Trek at the time was very adamant about only ever using models, only to a few years later hire the very people who worked and developed their craft on Babylon 5 ironically.

[@carlroyle3055]

I agree third season of enterprise was the best.

[@Nikioko]

Obviously the pilot had some problems, but Babylon 5 finally evolved into one of the best sci-fi shows ever. And it would have been even better if it wasn't threatened by cancellation all the time and didn't need adaptations of the script due to recasting. Imagine how it would have been if the episodes of seasons 4 and 5 had the order which they originally were supposed to have, with Ivanova being promoted to captain and following Sheridan as the commanding officer of the station. Or how Talia would have evolved her telekinetic abilities she received from Jason Ironheart if she was not scripted out. The whole Byron story would have been different. The replacement of Sinclair by Sheridan was solved really well, though. The change of almost the entire main cast from the pilot not.

[@dennistomsen5822]

Am I the only one who sees The Expanse as the true spirituel heir of Babylon 5 in so many ways?

[@Davegvg3576]

interesting description and yes. To be honest I enjoyed the BSG remake, but expanse is the only thing thats " riveted me" since B5.

[@ewanmacvicar]

In terms of believable world building absolutely

[@Babylon5Lurker5]

Talking about the VFX, go back in time to 1993 Television and ask if that looks cool. And you should give the Special Edition version of The Gathering a watch immediately. You will be shocked by how many small differences there are down to different takes being used in the same scenes. And it was made so The Gathering would fit better with the rest of the series and JMS could do it closer to how he wanted it.

[@deegx7916]

Special mention for In Purgatory's shadow/By inferno's light. I loved that two-parter, people don't talk about it enough. Good action and character stuff in that one.

[@jauregi2726]

Great Straczynki! I had this pilot on VHS. It was pure sci-fi gold.

[@TheAdamsteve1984]

100% agree with The Way of the Warrior and Season 3 of Enterprise!

[@neilharbott8394]

Back in the day, I collected Videos, I bought the B5 series as it was released, and this pilot movie was released before the show was broadcast on UK TV (they didn't show the pilot until the end of season 1 was broadcast). Many of my friends and family found the show confusing, they didn't entirely understand what was going on at first - once they had the opportunity to watch this movie they all expressed a deeper understanding of the show. I think while the TV show did get around to explaining much of the detail contained within this pilot, watching the pilot greatly enhanced the enjoyment of the show.

[@ZlothZloth]

Yeah, I don't think its skippable. Poisoning Kosh really doesn't make sense but everything else in there does and it establishes so much. The "hole in your mind" bit is downright critical!

[@echemh]

From when I first saw it to now I still say one of the most evil things Sinclair ever did was his conversation with G'kar and then Garibaldi at the end and all I need say is "beep beep" Garibaldi points out just how evil it was. I loved that scene.

[@exile220ify]

If nobody's mentioned it, there's another later edit of "The Gathering". It has a Christopher Franke score, it gets rid of the "zoo" sequence that you (rightfully) hated, and is generally tighter and faster moving. Additionally, in the original version you watched, Tamlyn's dialogue was overdubbed, causing her to sound quite stilted in time. This later (TNT) edit reinstates her original dialogue and she just comes off as more interesting and "tough".

[@Ken-lv8ej]

In-regards to the visuals for book reviews, both Seveneves and the Three Body Problem (Rememberance of Earth's Past) trilogy has a treasure trove of rich art done mostly by the fan community. Both books are AAA hard sci-fi epics.

[@bannor216]

Never heard of you before. Now that I have, I subbed.

[@emchamberlain]

Takashima was originally planned to be a plant for PSI-CORP, the Control character which eventually became Winters.

[@hamsters7760]

I'd say G'kar was the campy conniving antagonist type at least through most of S1. It's part of what makes his arc (and Londo's) so good-- they're introduced quite differently from their actual roles.

[@michaelwills1926]

I grew up on Buck Rogers so I always felt the lighting and effects of B5 were alluringly charming. Definitely what one envisions the future to look like or at least it does for me.

[@shaggycan]

4:15 Damn Pat Tallman is a nice looking lady.

[@CaesiusX]

My biggest issue with this pilot is determining whether or not to show it to someone who's about to start the show. It's got small nuggets that appear later. *Lyta Alexander's* experience with *Kosh* being the primary one, I suppose - but they explain everything well enough when she comes back. But it's really nice having seen it play out before her return later. But if I could, I think I'd prefer having a _noob_ skip it. IDK, I keep going back and forth. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@gdoubleyou3159]

If anyone asks I show them Severed Dreams first to pique their interest, as season 1 and this movie are a little slow.

[@Matej_Sojka]

I wonder if you know about Takashima backstory? She was supposed to be the traitor on the command staff, later they used it on the resident telepath Talia Winters. Also, she was the one who attempted to assassinate Kosh. Only piece of this in The Gathering that survived is a scene where she goes to interact with a screen like the Free Mars terrorist in the latter show.

[@deegx7916]

Best Star Trek season? DS9 season 6, no doubt about it!

[@NP-ip3nj]

The argument for the alien sector was that they wouldn't necessarily have the same notions of privacy due to differing cultures, which actually makes logical sense. I love the Stewart Copeland score in the OG pilot.

[@brianberthold3118]

now in days the CGI sucks but back then it was unheard of thing

[@jarjared3522]

The re-edit for TNT was much better. Christopher Franke rescores The Gathering and many scenes were re-edited.

[@Gansteeth]

It's a little rough but I like The Gathering. The Special Edition version was mostly smoother, but they managed to completely ruin the brilliant Sinclair scene where he talks about the Battle of The Line. It was was easily his best scene in this.

[@AlexJones-ue1ll]

Lt Commander Takashima was the original traitor plotline for the assassination of the president. She would have been the one shooting Garibaldi in the back. JMS mentioned this once in a DVD commentary. I do feel it would have been even more impactful, but in the end the way the show went we got to have Ivanova and Garibaldi getting shot nur much less of a shocking moment. While some effects are a bit goofy at this point, and there is a lot of exposition, it does give little more introduction. It does show more of G'Kars past. Spoiler alert: he wasnt a nice guy at the start. The revelation about Deleen being a member of the Grey council however was a bit to soon, I feel. The uses the ring --- weapon in G'Kar when the threatens to reveal that information about her, after all. All in all the Pilot is still part of the hole experience, as the line from the assassin towards Sinclair "There is a hole in your mind." not only comes back to haunt him, but is also one of the lines repeated for the Season 5 intro.

[@lorensims4846]

It was the pilot, after all. The CGI was done in LightWave on an Amiga Video Toaster and absolutely ground-breaking at the time. But yes, it all did get even better!

[@dremunoz2600]

I loved The Gathering and I did notice the changes in make up for the Narn and MInbari. It was cool to see that cast and how it changed to Season 1. Plus that movie was a solid start to a GREAT show. I never noticed just how the set for the alien quarters had the zoo like feel...that was weird. As far as the CGI, we couldn't expect too much for the early 90's tv movie so I give it a pass.

[@Nianfur]

The current DVD version is a remaster. The original TV broadcast version and the DVD release had a different cut and scenes added and removed.

[@scottdorfler2551]

Agree with you 100% about season 3 of Enterprise. I've rewatched it several times.

[@fathervader]

I'd be curious to hear a comparison review from you between this version of The Gathering and the re-edited version. Chris Franke music, a few additions, a few subtractions, and a much tighter edit.

[@crunchychips8123]

I love the Stewart Copeland soundtrack. BAYWATCH IN SPAAAAACE! I'd pay good money to get the entire series rescored by him.

[@koshzerg]

yeah, it did not age well, however, it was the best show AT THAT TIME.

[@donkink3114]

You could do better back then? The fog you referred to could easily be representation of the inertia in an environmental system for a large diverse crew and occupancy, your only valid criticism is the alien glass like doors

[@raz1980.]

still the best tv show ever created

[@residentgrey]

Why are people caring so much about the "aging"? Yall watch 8mm schlock just fine and plays of any sort, the latter of which are most movies and shows. They all just help tell the story. I wish we had a show now using some older visuals polished to today's standards to make it its own asthetic. To me, the way tech has been artfully applied in production I think needs to be preserved and can be a good tool to imply some subtleties to the universe and plot, because they can imply similar tropes found in shows seen with the applied tech.

[@alexflores7652]

Okay given the time it came out yes the make-up and special FX is a bit dated. But with the way the story was written it sets up the world and the characters. Because unlike some other SCIFI shows of the era Babylon 5 wouldn't finish a thread until maybe the next season or a few episodes later. That is why I love the show so much plus the characters were more three dimensional than some others I have watched even to this day. Plus the way the technology seems more believable given our current level of how we are progressing right now. Heck even NASA gave the show their blessing with how the even the fighters move during combat and maneuvering, just the launch sequence was very realistic. It's been so long since I have seen The Gathering I saw it back in '93 then watched it religiously when the series started I think back in '95 but had to miss the entire 4th season in '97 because was in Air Force basic training and tech school until December of '98 when I got to my first and only base posting.

[@pcuimac]

A NEW video about my favorite SciFi show? The Gathering wasn't the best story, but it's all there. Secrets, characters, Vorlon ships and space! Love it. Memo to Anita Sarkeesian: Plenty of strong women in Babylon 5 in 1994. And boys loved it!

[@szeltovivarsydroxan9944]

The CGI might look dated now, but you have to remember nothing like this existed on TV in the early 90's. The effects here were actually mindblowing.

[@axepagode33626]

Do you remember the Season Four episode where they killed Ulkesh (Kosh 2)? It took energy, Kosh, Sheridan, and Lorien to stop him. However, in the pilot The Gathering, it took a poison patch on the back of his hand to almost kill him. I always had trouble with that. If the Gathering was real, it should have been easier to stop Ulkesh. Leeta, Garibaldi, G'Kar and Delenn new about the poison. Lorien should have known as well. So why didn't they say anything? Plot change. The Vorlon's were not part of the First Ones initially. They set the Minbari up as the dominant power. In the new universe, it was all a test by the Vorlons for Sinclair.

[@jarednil69]

Just saw BABYLON 5: THE ROAD HOME! Hopefully you do a retrospective!

[@sergioaccioly5219]

If we are revisiting early B5, what about a Voice in the Wilderness, parts 1 and 2? That's when I got hooked to the series.

[@RowanJColeman]

I listed that in my Top 10 B5 episodes video

[@theonlymatthew.l]

Season 6 of DS9 is my favorite Star Trek season

[@ricardoospina5970]

I think they where doing the VFX on amiga's using Video toasters, I don't think they moved to sun workstations until the series started.

[@bonghunezhou5051]

This is the initial version of the pilot film, as opposed to the later DVD version which is slightly different, I gather? As well, there are a few others of the similar length (e.g. Third Space). Wonder if their production caliber is closer to The Gathering or the regular episodes?

[@dosmastrify]

Well don't forget it was Battlestar Galactica which made the moving vfx camera a thing

[@MarcDRhodes1972]

The 'remastered' version made for TNT is much better and tighter story-wise. Also, you get Franke's music as opposed to the hideous Copeland stuff. Bit hard to track down, but it is out there and well worth it.

[@zenmaster24]

its the muppe show? so you hated farscape?

[@gateauxq4604]

Please answer this. Even with all the B5 love I cannot abide anyone who blows off Farscape because OOOOO MUPPET SHOW. No. Nope. No. Crichton is the only handsome brash hunk white guy lead that I will abide because he’s also an astrophysicist and huge nerd. And then theres everyone else... As orderly as B5 is Farscape is its chaotic twin.

[@descendinguniverse]

I personally liked Farscape, but yeah, that particular aspect wasn`t my favorite for sure. I just realized they couldn`t do it other way, so kinda accepted it.

[@simonoleary9264]

I haven't heard Stuart Copeland's score for a while, but I do remember that the main theme did sound very like "The Equalizer" TV theme (also by Copeland). So not really surprising about the "cop show" feel. I did like the original B5 theme, but it didn't really fit the show. The commissioning of Christopher Franke was a major improvement. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nWman3d4ft6km7c

[@roaditr]

Did you check out the longer special edition? Around 14 min longer and I heard its pacing is better.

[@ScrapKing73]

Fully agreed. It didn't suck. Also, I fully agree that season 3 of Enterprise is the single best season of any Star Trek series. My fingers were crossed that you'd name that season, and I was thrilled that you agreed with me.

[@Palmerrip]

I enjoy B5 and still do. The Gathering is tough to swallow but is essential to the overall story.

[@naughtynarn6533]

did it suck? no, what sucks is that i can only watch the tnt "special edition" on dvd and itunes, i tend to prefer original versions of movies...cough* star wars cough*.

[@crankywriter1738]

The original is on Amazon Prime Video.

[@naughtynarn6533]

@@crankywriter1738 thanks, i'll have to look into that.

[@TheDetailsMatter]

I'm of the same mind regarding Das Boot. Like so many others I fell in love with the 90-minute version originally released in American theaters, German language with English subtitles. When it came out on VHS, it was the 3-hour Director's Cut with all the cutting-room floor footage added back in (overlong, spoiled pacing, English-dubbed...pure crap); the DVD & BluRay are also the Director's Cut. Complain that you want to see the _original_ version, and they say "Sure, no problem," and give you the 6-hour miniseries from German TV. You can't get the American theatrical release version of the feature film for love or money.

[@deegx7916]

Yep. I like the Stewart Copeland music. This is the version I have on DVD.

[@pezdispencer113]

What did the TNT version change exactly?

[@killzoneisa]

I never like the last season when i was young as it went weird ,but wasn't till a later age that i found why, as the season before they finish up all the story arcs and found they got one more lot to do.

[@gregherman3816]

best show ever

[@mahatmarandy5977]

I know it's not the popular opinion, but I actually liked the Stewart Copeland score for The Gathering. It doesn't fit with Franke's stuff, but it shows an interesting way things could have gone. I also preferred the original uniform designs, though I get why they changed 'em. Not a lot of 'pop' there. The CG has aged very badly, but I saw a preview of this at a con a few months before it hit the air, and daaaaaang, everyone was completely blown away by it. In contrast to the rather bland and staid visuals in TNG and other shows, just the freedom of movement and the massive range of different kinds of spacecraft and the lens flares blew everyone away.

[@fandomvault4901]

I would love to see what you think about the road home movie

[@brydon5721]

It is such a thing Takashima is never mentioned again, let alone ever seen--she would've been a great recurring character.

[@rexxthunder]

With regards to the early comments about the CGI motion being really stiff, that had to do with Lightwave 3Ds limited animation curve controls at the time. Commercial animation software was REALLY bad at that time. Look at any game cinematic done in 3D Studio at the time.

[@odysseusrex5908]

For me, Babylon 5 is the single best science fiction television series done to date, bar none. Best Star Trek? TOS, season one.

[@chronobot2001]

You are being too hard on the computer graphics. It was fine and great for the time. The acting and story is the strength of B5.

[@descendinguniverse]

haha I didn`t recognized Takashima in new Star Trek, also it`s funny to see the Gathering poster in Russian

[@JoeyHollywoodFilms]

Have you watched the "updated" version? It removes some of your complaints like the zoo room

[@robertmartinu8803]

GKar and Londo show plausible character development. The one begins trying to pull the ropes here, doing the same but more subtle at the beginning of the series to learning a lot in the philosophy department. The other dreaming of more then the illusion of power, admitting to himself that this is a delusion or joke on both his race as well as him in person to, well be careful what you dream of. I'm surprised how well Sinclair does as a governor of something of that scale. Going from a fighter wing to a city in space is daunting!(Sheridan was at least in command of a large warship, plus the fighters...)

[@zekebanks7876]

I just wish they hadn't taken Babylon 5 off amazon prime I still need to watch season 5

[@Dasharr]

Watching The Gathering at the time it aired was the reason why I didn't start watching the series of Babylon 5 (so I suppose you could say I'd answer differently to "did it suck" LOL). Friends kept telling me to watch B5 and loaned me videos, so I finally watched season 1 a few years later, loved it and watched all the show. Edit: although as I think back on it, I didn't exactly hate The Gathering, it just didn't make me think that B5 would be worth my time. It came across as quite Star Trek (which I was tiring of) with some obvious This-Will-Be-Important-Later chunks here and there.

[@dereckaddie408]

I wonder if they will ever re-master Babylon 5 like they did with the original Star Trek...keep the live action but all space shots redone in the latest CGI. Could bring about a revival of the show.

[@zachreddy]

For those who don't know, Warner's has 35mm 4:3 prints of all of B5 in storage, but keeps releasing the same garbage videotape transfers instead. Some fan upscale efforts exist, but without higher quality source material there's only so much they can do.

[@benre]

what music are you using in the background?

[@apostolispouliakis7401]

Rewatching this movie is like watching a what if scenario happened with Babylon 5's execution

[@residentgrey]

I think noir, cop-show, motifs could have worked too. Too many shows had clean edges. Firefly is one of the few I am aware of without a true good side, only one we root for. Any others are encouraged to be suggested

[@residentgrey]

Speaking of cop show, Alien Nation did it right. They twisted tropes well and the society depicted is fascinating enough to me to warrant more exploration.

[@walteradrianmoyano3054]

Movie, serie de Babylon 5: The Gathering 1993, Babylon 5 1994-1998, Babylon 5: In the Beginning 1998, Babylon 5: The River of Souls 1998, Babylon 5: A Call to Arms 1999, Crusade 1999-, Babylon 5: The Legend of the Rangers: To Live and Die in Starlight 2002, Babylon 5: The Lost Tales 2007, Star Wreck, Star Wreck IV: The Kilpailu, Star Wreck: Lost Contact, Star Wreck: In the Pirkinning, Star Wreck 2pi: Full Twist, Now!, Galactic Battles 2018, Space Battles, Babel 13, etc

[@houstonhelicoptertours1006]

Nah, it was fine. Gotta start somewhere, test ideas for the series. A diamond in the rough, so to speak. It even won an Emmy later in 1994 for its use of digital visual effects/computer graphics.

[@ryderlynch2281]

I certainly don't think The Gathering sucked, but it's production was so much lower than the television show that followed. As you said though, the quality of Babylon 5 increased over the course of its run. I have to wonder what Babylon 5 would be like today if someone were to apply a Ronald D Moore-style "reimagining" to it. The Lost Tales gave a look at B5 with updated VFX, but a lot of people weren't happy with it. What do you hope to see out of the Star Trek: Strange New Worlds series announced earlier today?

[@sonosoloio]

takashima was a great character and I don't understand why she was eliminated in the regular series. but ivanova was an excellent replacement, one of the best characters of the entire series, perhaps if they had put her in command of the starship excalibur, the spin off would not have been canceled.

[@theonlymatthew.l]

Imo Takashima was wooden as hell, utterly montone and boring

[@Nostock-im9tq]

I'm about to start the series for the first time. Would i need to have watched this first?