This Ground Breaking NEC Update Has Everyone Talking (Don't get left behind)

[@BackyardMaine]

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[@VEC7ORlt]

NO.

[@appleseed8375]

We use 14 for a while then went back to 12 less trouble with people over loading circuits with heaters in the winter. We choose to do it with 12 just was less hassle for us. Cost isn't always the best measure.

[@stevelopez372]

Good decision because you know darn well a handy man or a DIYer is going to mess with it. Lol.

[@taxicamel]

Never heard of 12 being used exclusively ......but it is far safer without a doubt .......and perhaps in very cold areas in the winter .....and furnaces can't keep up ......YUP!!!! .

[@ps.2]

The video points out that NEC does *not* permit any receptacles ("outlets") on a 10A circuit. So space heaters aren't an issue here. Without receptacles, this is limited to what's wired directly in, mainly lights and ceiling fans (which mostly seem to be rated well under 1A, so also not an issue). (Unless, like, you think the homeowner will unscrew a light bulb and screw in one of those hideous pull-chain lighting attachments that also provides a 2-prong outlet. And then run an extension cord up to the ceiling to plug their space heater into. And support it with duct tape somehow, since the blade holes on those pull-chain outlets always seem to be so loose.)

[@kenbrown2808]

@taxicamel if the furnace can't keep up, the tin nokkers ripped you off.

[@foogod4237]

Your receptacles shouldn't be on the same circuit as your lighting anyway, so for lighting circuits, there's really no reason not to use 14, even if you're using 12 for all your receptacle circuits (which I agree is a good idea, particularly given how many things people need to plug in nowadays (not just heaters)).

[@62Cristoforo]

Probably a good idea to keep using the AWG#14 conductor for now, even on circuits with a 10 amp breaker, in case of any future upgrades. You’d really only want to use #16 branch circuit conductors if you’re absolutely sure the demand will always only ever be LED lighting.

[@BackyardMaine]

I agree..

[@charliesullivan4304]

It's not just a good idea to keep using #14. It's the smallest that's code compliant, for now. #16 won't be an option until the next code cycle. And even after that comes out, individual states take a while to adopt the new edition.

[@rupe53]

Forgetting where I saw it, but it seems that lighting fixtures with odd socket configurations are the only thing allowable on certain jobs. (commercial?) That means the bozo handyman can't screw in bigger bulbs and overload the circuit. Yeah, high wattage bulbs are getting scarce, but you'd be amazed at what's still out in the supply closets, especially in older buildings.

[@ps.2]

I mean, the video does point out that you can't put receptacles on a 10A circuit. So, without receptacles, in what circumstance would 10A _not_ be plenty? Assuming the homeowner won't ever want to go back to incandescent bulbs. Even ceiling fans typically draw _well_ under an amp, so, unless your circuit covers enough rooms that it's plausible to put 6 or 7 ceiling fans on a single circuit ... I don't see the problem. Of course if 16g can't be used yet in most situations, this is rather moot. *Unless....* Does this mean, if you have a 10A breaker, you can use 14g on _really long_ runs? I believe there's a length beyond which a 15A circuit requires 12g wire due to voltage drop, yes?

[@paaao]

@@ps.2You can always use larger awg wire than the minimum size your breaker can protect per the code. You can use 8 awg wire on a 15 amp breaker as long as the breaker terminal can accept it. Happens all the time on commercial jobs in order to future proof and reduce voltage drop issues.

[@kmbbmj5857]

I'm just a homeowner, but to me it makes more sense to overbuild by at least one step above the minimum up front. Sure, it costs a little more, but it's much cheaper to do it when everything is opened up and boots are on the ground than to come back and upgrade later.

[@danielcarroll3358]

Another homeowner here. Been there done that. My house is from 1903. First gas lighting. Next 30A service and knob and tube. Then some added Romex and 30A. Then some grounding and 125A and a breaker panel. Then... ah screw it. 200A service back to the studs, solar, heat pump water heater, heat pump heat/cool and induction cooktop. Still gas for the clothes dryer as they were threatening to not allow gas unless you already had it. That should do it for my lifetime. Who knows what the next generation(s) will be up to.

[@jimonthecoast3234]

Over build on electrical safety means using devices that are more likely to trip. Matching the protection device to the load.

[@foogod4237]

@@jimonthecoast3234 No, "overbuilding" means building the system to be able to handle larger loads safely, so _it's not necessary_ to match the protection device as closely to the load to still be safe (and you also _reduce_ the likelihood of tripping).

[@jimonthecoast3234]

@@foogod4237 leds are smaller loads. Overbuilding means matching the loads to reduce fire risk You can oversize the conductors so that overheating occurs outside the wiring, but matching the over current to the reduced load so the device trips, instead letting a led fixture start to melt. . Signed the NEC.

[@bolland83]

@@jimonthecoast3234 They're still going to require AFCI protection regardless, which trips if you look at it funny. And unless you're doing non replaceable fixtures, you have to assume the occupant may replace bulbs/fixtures with something different later on.

[@pondking2801]

The biggest issue is going to training electricians not to mix outlet and lighting circuits. When our house was built, I put into the electrical plans that lighting and outlets were to be on separate circuits, but was not able to inspect while the work was done. Despite the specifications, the lighting and outlet circuits were mixed, with the result that a tripped breaker would also shut off the lights in the room, a problem if the breaker tripped at night.

[@foogod4237]

Well, that's frustrating.. Personally, I'd be calling them back and making them fix it (and make them pay for any extra costs of fixing it, since the work was not done correctly (as specified) originally).

[@psychiatry-is-eugenics]

Boss put the plans in his pocket . It never got to the people doing the work

[@johndavies2949]

We ropers don't read plans or specs for residential. Just go into a room and throw some boxes around and call her good.

[@bryanherman1035]

The real issue is how much more that is going to cost customers. And if you are having problems with breakers tripping, they probably didn't do it right in the first place. Or you are overloading your circuits.

[@psychiatry-is-eugenics]

@@bryanherman1035 i agree with cost being The issue . Hindsight questions , separating circuits would have to be discussed with the Master Electrician ? Cost would easily double ? Also guessing it’s possible all the Master Electrician would do is put his name on the work permit , and maybe a visit to the job site .

[@gluuuuue]

Makes sense. I pretty much went 20A for all my remodel’s receptacle circuits and only used 15A for circuits supplying dedicated LED lighting only, and dedicated Smoke/CO.

[@starchaser-M32]

The other advantage of a 10a circuit on led lights is that if a light has a short it may not trip the breaker. I have had this issue and the light burns up.

[@dalewatkins8694]

I wonder if the new 10 AMP AFCIs will be more sensitive..???

[@paulmaxwell8851]

It it were a true short circuit the circuit breaker WILL trip. A small internal fault (liker a short) in an LED bulb typically results in an almost instant failure of the bulb. That's as it should be.

[@bryanherman1035]

If a light has a short, and it doesn't trip a breaker, the problem isn't the gauge of wiring. There is no advantage to using a breaker with less amps. Half an amp, in the right circumstances, could burn your house down.

[@timcoleman3609]

I agree with the 10 amp breaker. Leave primary wiring at 14! The only alternative is to build driver board panels and set leds remotely with secondary protection!

[@timcoleman3609]

And all leds ballasts should have secondary protection if UL labeled. Old school correction. Driver not ballast!!!

[@mb-3faze]

In the UK, most lighting circuits are on 6 amp breakers, running 1.5mm^2 wire (16 gauge). The voltage is 240V, of course, so it's roughly comparable with 10A 110V US style wiring.

[@BackyardMaine]

Thanks for sharing

[@bryanherman1035]

What would 1.5mm be if you converted it to AWG? If you happen to know anyway. I'll calculate it if not.

[@mb-3faze]

​@@bryanherman1035​In exact conversion it's between 15 gauge and 16 gauge. So the closest is 16 gauge. UK wire sizes are measured in cross-sectional area, so it's 1.5millimetres squared (including the British spelling of metres ;) ) However, this is a mouthful to say so people just refer to wire sizes as 1mm, 1.5mm, 2.5mm, 4mm etc, even though they mean area.

[@BackyardMaine]

1.5mm is equal to 16AWG wire. I know this is common in the UK, Europe and many other countries since they run at 2x the voltage as we do here in the US.@@bryanherman1035

[@bryanherman1035]

@@mb-3faze Interesting. Thanks for the reply.

[@actodesco]

I saw 16 gauge romex-type wiring in Bangkok in a hotel. It was wired to a door switch for the closet light. This was about 20 years ago. Of course, there the mains are 240V, so having a lower amp rating will still give you more power than on our 120V system. I don't know what the breakers for that circuit were rated at.

[@scottmorton1202]

I live in Laos, right next door. 6A breakers are now becoming common on lighting-only circuits, and open-standard DIN rail circuit breakers are increasingly preferred in new construction.

[@bradlevantis913]

The lighting advancements are exactly what I was thinking with a 10 amp circuit. Not sure how it is in the US but in Canada it’s rare to find incandescent lamps except for few consumer specific applications. Literally looking around the main floor of my house and there is not a single one left. And that includes the oven and fridge

[@BackyardMaine]

Same here in the US. The only lights left in my house that aren’t LED are some floods out back which are hard to get too. Probably charge them out in the spring.

[@davidmarquardt9034]

@@BackyardMaine I have two CFL's in lamps in the living room left. And a 100 watt (that,s 1750 lumens output) for the porch light, incandescent bulb. Front closet has a old bulb, but the rating is worn off, plugged it into the meter and got a odd ball reading of 108 watts! But since those last two are only used maybe 2 times a month for 15 seconds, I'll replace them when they burn out. The closet one has never been replaced since we moved in in 1994 (30 years) and it has a brass base, not the cheaper aluminum base so it could go back to the 60's.

[@rupe53]

I wasn't aware of any LEDs for high temp applications. An oven is certainly in that category.

[@taxicamel]

Just think of how SAFER your house is now with "heavier gauge wiring" feeding your lighting!!!! .

[@foogod4237]

@@rupe53 True, but oven lamps are usually pretty low wattage, even though they're incandescent. But the oven would also be supplied through a receptacle anyway, so it couldn't be on a 10 amp circuit according to these rules anyway.

[@randallthomas5207]

The application I immediately thought of would be feeding low draw devices such as USB only outlets, and door bell circuits, plus the LED lighting applications. But I’m designing for running 120V to a lighting controller and then low voltage to the actual lights, to simplify wiring for lighting in SIP construction.

[@flatfingertuning727]

I've thought for quite awhile that there should be some kind of standard receptacle for low-current 120V devices. Many USB power supplies consume less than half an amp, so even a 10-amp circuit could easily handle over a dozen of them.

[@advil000]

Yes exactly. It's like they're behind the curve on this by 10-20 years. If you need low current devices like LED lights, cameras, sensors, small fans, even tiny computer and small monitor power etc... have one dedicated 20A circuit in the panel then put a low voltage panel/server rack/whatever right next to it and run all the LV wiring for those things from there. Way less code issues and the wire can be run just about anywhere as needed. And 1000' of LV or network cable wire is cheap compared to any Romex product and pulls easily. I can't imagine what I'd want to run on a 10A breaker that would be worth the hassle of taking up valuable space in my main panel for? If I'm going to go pull a permit to add circuits I'm going to maximize what I can get out that wire, not minimize it.

[@tonydoggett7627]

Australian Standard 3000 requires separate circuits for lights and power. The exception is for a detached garage, then it is termed a “mixed circuit” using cable sized for 20 amp power. (2.5mm2 Cu)

[@WorldInANutshell]

You can also wear childrens clothing to save a few cents. The initial savings on the wire from 14 to 16 is minimal and the power limitations are excessive. Any electirican running this system for clients is baking in a $10k upgrade bomb inside a short while. No thanks.

[@qpSubZeroqp]

💯 agreed

[@cgschow1971]

There used to be 10 amp fuses back in the early days. Since there were very few electrical appliances and lights, 10 amp was considered sufficient, possibly overkill then. Also wonder why not leave everything at 14ga, 15 amp and increase the number of LED lights?

[@marcfruchtman9473]

Thanks for the video. I can see that it opens the door for running lower cost lighting, but, PoE (Power over Ethernet) already allows for that. And as you mention, given that 10 amp breakers are more costly, and the NM wiring for it has not even really come available, it might be years before it gets any use at all.

[@foogod4237]

If you're not connecting a device that needs network connectivity anyway, PoE is typically a very expensive way to run power to something (and usually requires devices that actually support it, you can't just use it for ordinary light fixtures, etc). I wouldn't be surprised if with this change, we start seeing people selling 16 AWG NM cable (and 10 amp breakers becoming more available) within the next year or two. I could particularly see this being very useful in some kinds of new commercial building construction, which is probably where we'll see it really being used first.

[@marcfruchtman9473]

@@foogod4237You are right that the cost will decrease once people start selling 16 awg NM and the breakers will drop in cost as well... BUT, The cost for PoE is fairly small. 20 dollars for a low cost injector, and similar for compatible lights.. AFAIK, most areas do not require a professional electrician and a permit to do this type of install. As long as there is a receptacle nearby, PoE is fairly reasonable when you compare adding the cost of having an electrician perform the job. Obviously, it is nice to have an electrician do the job, but in that case, I don't see it as being "less cost".

[@davidwillmore]

Gotta start somewhere.

[@Milosz_Ostrow]

There are plenty of applications where even 10 A circuit capacity is severe overkill. One example would be a dedicated circuit for fire and smoke alarms in a residence, and possibly some emergency light battery chargers, where the loads are fixed. Continuous current draw on such a circuit would be well under 1 A.

[@BillLaBrie]

Homes should be built with an internal dc bus.

[@mikethorp1577]

Our local code prohibits smoke alarms from being on their own breaker. They must be tied in to another circuit as this (in theory) prevents completely shutting down the alarms due to nuisance alarm tripping. They also can not be tied into the sump pump dedicated circuit which must be used with a single (not duplex) outlet GFCI type outlet.

[@ashmenard]

I typically power the smoke/co from one of the lighting circuits so they can’t be turned off without it being a nuisance.

[@louf7178]

Thanks. Amazing to see actual reductions happening due to more efficient lighting.

[@doug8718]

Makes sense for lower current-rated branch circuits, considering today's lower current devices. Not being an expert with the NEC, I'm a little puzzled that a conductor with a HIGHER temp rating would not be appropriate for use in EMT, etc., all other things being equal. One would think having a higher temp rating for a conductor would provide and even better safety margin. What am I missing, Vern?

[@EVoltage00]

This is a change that was pushed by CopperWeld, manufacturer or copperclad aluminum wire. The new code would allow 14/2 CCA for a 10A circuit for lighting only.

[@justins8004]

^this^ Advertised as 15-25% cheaper even after upsizing, half the weight, less voltage drop because of larger conductor (energy savings), easier to bend and maneuver, more price stability than copper, and uses all the same terminations as copper wire. ZERO scrap value (beneficial to both jobsite and retail theft). Obviously, there are probably short sides that they are not stating, and this won't really make a dent if it’s a small remodel project or single-family home. But, if you start looking at larger homes, and multi-unit apartment complexes with thousands of feet to run, this really will be beneficial in those projects. The retail inventory cost and theft issue is very attractive to home stores as well. Your average Home Depot probably has five figures in 14 AWG - 4 AWG wiring inventory at any given time. Drop that by 25% (or more because they buy wholesale in bulk) while simultaniously making it less desirable to steal would be pretty attractive to the company.

[@TimeSurfer206]

@@justins8004 "Zero scrap value" means it can't be recycled. And "Copper clad aluminum" means two dissimilar metals. All we need now is the electrolyte. Where's the rainwater that's leached pitch and such from the lumber, as it penetrated in from the roof?

[@5467nick]

@@TimeSurfer206 It can recycled, though it's probably more difficult since recyclers will need to separate the aluminum from the copper. The "zero scrap value" refers to aluminum having much lower scrap value than copper and not being worth stealing. You aren't likely to have galvanic corrosion from copper clad aluminum just like you don't get galvanic corrosion from galvanized steel or chrome plated anything. The two metals are completely bonded together, so there isn't room between them for an electrolyte to get into. You might have an issue at the ends of the wire if they're not sealed, but that would mean having liquid in junction boxes or inside outlets. If you have water inside your junction boxes and/or outlets, then galvanic corrosion probably isn't your biggest concern.

[@SgtJoeSmith]

I have a shop with small corner office. I've added stuff over the years I had no idea I would so now the wiring almost needs redone. I got a mini countertop dishwasher in office plus window ac unit in the wall. In shop a mini washing machine for rags plus hoist, small ac and car lift and air compressor. It be nice to have each those items on its own circuit. The 2 ax units. Washer and dishwasher are less than 10 amps so a 10 amp breaker for each would work. But 15 amp and 14/2 wire would probably be better. Everything is plugged into 2 20 amp circuits with 20 amp outlets and 12/2 wire. 1 circuit for office and 1 for shop. I'm not operating air compressor, car lift and hoist and washer at same time so not too big a deal. And even if washer going and I use lift or hoist they only run 10 or 15 seconds at a time.

[@BackyardMaine]

Sounds like you need a sub panel.

[@SgtJoeSmith]

@@BackyardMaine this is on a sub panel. i need separate 200 amp service now.

[@TomFarrell-p9z]

Ha! I once rented a house built in 1940, and the kitchen circuit was rated at 10 amps. You could use a micro-wave or a toaster, long as you didn't use them both at once. Luckily, hardware stores still sold edison base fuses in those days for times I forgot! Great video with some great information John!

[@BackyardMaine]

Oh wow!

[@victorsteerup4582]

The "Green Acres" farmhouse kitchen had that situation. All the appliance power cords were numbered with the relative draw, which could not exceed "10" on the switch strip outlet.

[@TomFarrell-p9z]

@@victorsteerup4582 LOL! Yes, that's the way it was at my house.

[@rupe53]

@@victorsteerup4582 Ha... you watched the episode where they installed a generator!

[@SuperVstech]

@@victorsteerup4582yes, but that was just a way of determining load on the little generator. It wasn’t an amp rating, it was a simple number so the wife could understand what she could run at the same time. Classic scene.

[@t23001]

Pros and DIYers alike are going to have to resist the temptation to add receptacles and other higher power use items when there’s a 10 amp cable in a convenient location.

[@BackyardMaine]

True.

[@zlcoolboy]

Which isn't going to happen. Corners get cut, it's why we have the nec.

[@robertgaines-tulsa]

Most people don't care about the NEC. They have a job to do, and they're going to do it. It's wise to follow NEC, but most people feel it's their house. I guarantee people will begin overloading their wiring and burning down their houses. Lines should be rated no lower than the common receptacle.@@zlcoolboy

[@lrmackmcbride7498]

Do not add a receptacle from a switch unless it is a switched receptacle and then it cannot be 10 amp. Pretty simple rule but see it all the time. Architects are taught to draw the electrical with separate light and receptacle ciruits. Then on the job site it gets changed to per room breakers because it is cheaper. Real world as a home owner, I like separate light and receptacle circuits. Hair drier or air frier blows a circuit, I am not stumbling around looking for a breaker in the dark. In my case the two bathrooms and an outdoor outlet are one gfci circuit. Not cost efficient but convenient since they get blown the most. Gfci fault not circuit blown.

[@bs-phd131]

And when they screw in old 60 & 100W bulbs onto these 10A led circuits ? What then ? 🤷‍♂️🤪👍

[@glee21012]

First thing I thought of was for LED lighting, and you confirmed it !

[@steveurbach3093]

How about 10A for residential Smoke/CO alarms. They draw almost nothing.

[@Sophie-Red-Rebel]

That makes a lot of sense. Like many other jurisdictions, here in the province of Quebec (Canada) smoke/CO alarms must be on their own dedicated circuit... 10amps would be more than enough.

[@cherrypieforbreakfast1499]

​@@Sophie-Red-Rebel That never stuck me as a good idea. If the smoke breaker is tripped (for whatever reason), it's easy not to notice. I wire mine into a circuit that's in use all the time.

[@EcHo8484]

Smokies should be on a lighting circuit…

[@jerrydemas2020]

You mean exit signs-emergency lights! @@EcHo8484​

[@mattdude]

Wouldn’t work for my house. Our smoke alarms share a circuit with both bathroom outlets and a couple of outlets in the backyard.

[@nashbeltran5046]

Have you looked into the update for the kitchen island outlets. It's kinda shocking the direction that they went and the loophole they left with the exception of just supplying a means for on outlet.

[@BackyardMaine]

I have.. I have that on my video idea list.

[@blipco5]

#16 is a great idea for lighting seeing how manufacturers build fixtures and remote ballasts with wiring space as large as a thimble.

[@pyrotech7210]

You can also use the tap conductor rules to install 16 gauge wire. Home run to a jbox or set of them in 12 and branch off to nearby LED drivers and fixtures with 16.

[@l0zerth]

Most of the devices I've seen with small tiny wiring holes are not quality that I would trust, but it's also been a few years since I've really looked.

[@blipco5]

@@pyrotech7210 Tap conductor rules don’t apply to branch circuits and the code calls for a minimum of #14 gauge wire for branch circuits.

[@aurvaroy6670]

​@@blipco5Which section mentions tap conductor rules?

[@blipco5]

@@aurvaroy6670 If I recall it’s in the feeder section.

[@wesley00042]

I wonder if this was designed for smoke detector runs. Dedicated circuit, low current, not a lot of adds after the drywall is closed up, long contiguous runs where the wire cost savings might be significant for a large builder.

[@BackyardMaine]

They will probably apply as well. The code has allowed odd sized breakers for dedicated circuit for as long as I can remember. Notice the terminology used is “other than individual branch circuits”. I dedicated circuit is an individual branch circuit.

[@bryanherman1035]

But then it would be a dedicated circuit and no one would notice if the breaker tripped. Tying them into something people will notice has always been my practice.

[@BackyardMaine]

Smoke detector requirements for residential homes in the US are covered by NFPA 72 not NFPA 70- which is the national electrical code. Although some states may have amendments NFPA 72 does not require smoke detector circuits to have a dedicated circuit or that they be connected to a lighting circuit. I agree connecting them to a lighting circuit is a good practice. Smoke detectors require battery back up and when the batteries fails they chirp. It's annoying so people will replace the battery. If a dedicated circuit was lost eventually the detectors would all start to chirp before they failed to operate. @@bryanherman1035

[@bryanherman1035]

@@BackyardMaine I can't even begin to count how many times I've walked into people's houses and all the smoke detectors were chirping. Then when you ask how long they have been doing that people say 'oh a couple months' to 'oh about a year'. The chirping has literally no effect on some people. So, if all the batteries were dead, and the dedicated circuit tripped without anyone noticing, people's homes could be left with absolutely no smoke/CO2 protection. That seems like a serious safety issue to me. This may not be a likely scenario, but it could happen. And there could be avoidable deaths. That's why I always put them on a circuit that, if it did trip, would knock out an entire room. Usually, I put it on the master bedroom. And I do that because if the entire room is out, they WILL call someone. This 10A dedicated circuit nonsense just seems unnecessary to me. They're fixing what isn't broken. If you really wanted to change up the design of lighting circuits because pretty much everything is LED's now, why wouldn't you just start putting in DC panels? LED lights have to be converted from AC to DC right now anyway, so why not skip the driver, keep everything under 50V, and run DC? Plus, you could use solar to directly supply them, without the need (and losses) of inverting it. I suppose you could end up with voltage/amperage issues, or having to run multiple discrete circuits, but the same could be said for this 10A circuit baloney.

[@paulromsky9527]

Fixed LED lighting, centralized Fire/Smoke/Security systems... are all now very common in new home builds. 10A circuits with 16AWG wiring makes sense. 5A circuits with 18AWG wiring soon be added.

[@JoseLgamer05]

10 amp lighting circuits have been a thing in Europe since forever at this point, if it hasn't been like this from the beginning. We also put lights and outlets in different circuits, in mainland Europe we do 16 amp for the plugs and 10 for the lights. We might have a 20 amp circuit for the stove, everything else that needs a separate circuit just has a 16 breaker, like washing machines, dishwashers, dryers, water heaters, A/Cs, etc. All of those, except A/Cs in most cases, just come with a standard plug, and there is an outlet with it's own circuit for those devices. A/Cs used to also come with a plug in the indoor unit (we primarily use mini-splits) that you had to plug in, but now they just leave the terminals for you to hardwire your own cable in the outdoor unit.

[@AaronJohnsonSTL]

That's the advantage of your higher voltage mains: fewer amps are required for the same power.

[@mxslick50]

@@AaronJohnsonSTL Their licensing and inspections are much stricter over there, and DIY hacks have less access to electrical supplies than over here. It doesn't totally eliminate hacks, but the percentage there is far lower.

[@foogod4237]

Yeah, a 10 amp circuit in Europe (220/240V) is basically the same (in terms of power capacity) as a 20 amp circuit in the US (120V). So this code change would be the same as having *5 amp* lighting circuits in Europe.

[@JoseLgamer05]

@@foogod4237 the UK does use 6 amp circuits for lighting, but they do things way differently than mainland Europe where I live. Their electrics are weird to be fair and the 6 amp lighting circuits are far from the only thing that "unconventional"

[@ThunderClawShocktrix]

to be fair a 10 circuit in europe = 20A here since Europe runs 240V

[@gerald8289]

The NEC should match CEC for #8 wire being rated for 50amps @ 75c. Its so nice to be able to use #8 for those cases. The 10 amp circuits and 16ga wires does really make a lot of sense for the industry. Everything is LED, and even in very large homes, if you added up every light together is would likely be under 8 amps total. With many chains of 8 watt pot lights totalling to

[@woodwaker1]

Makes a lot of sense for LED lighting circuits. Still love the hat.

[@BackyardMaine]

Thank you. 🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@enitalp]

In my home, I'm switching to DC 48V and 24V. To power directly all my lights and USB devices (24V to USB for 2$) and remove all the power bricks. Even my PCs are powered in 48V. It also means that all my "48V" devices have backup power.

[@scottmorton1202]

LV DC is a hassle due to increased voltage drops. Stick to standard line voltage. Power blocks are cheap.

[@tlhIngan]

10 amps is a lot of LED bulbs ... At 1kW ish that's what, 60 bulbs? For a smaller dwelling that would mean one lighting circuit for the entire home. That's how far we've come in efficiency

[@jeffferguson4632]

Yes and if the home is in Minnesota, all that heat lost is being made up by the furnace for a net zero savings....but who cares?

[@davidwillmore]

​@jeffferguson4632 Tell me you don't know anything about heating efficiency without telling me you know nothing about heating efficiency.

[@jeffferguson4632]

You do know that incandescent bulbs expend 98% of their input current as heat, and that they are the most efficient ELECTRIC heaters around....I'm sure you know that. Study up, you'll get there!

[@davidwillmore]

@@jeffferguson4632 then you must know that a heat pump yields a multiple of its input power as heating as does a gas furnace. Electrical heating is the least power efficient form of heating.

[@jeffferguson4632]

Got it. I'll try to find someone in MN with a heat pump. Thanks, you win the internet.

[@davidstjames_]

One of the reasons for this change may be the fact that electric vehicles are being pushed pretty hard, and the most user friendly method of charging is in your own garage. If there isn't enough available amperage available in an electric panel, dropping a couple of dedicated lighting circuits down to 10 amp breakers might be enough of a drop to add a 50 amp circuit for a 14-50 outlet.

[@BackyardMaine]

Good thought, but capacity is calculated by the actual load being served not the size or number of breakers. For example if you added up the breakers in a 30 space 100A panel you would be somewhere around 600A.

[@davidstjames_]

@@BackyardMaine Ok, I see. Thank you for the quick response! I'm literally watching another one of your videos right now, I learn a great deal from them.

[@BackyardMaine]

@@davidstjames_ Thank you!

[@davidstjames_]

@@BackyardMaine My pleasure Sir!

[@geneticdisorder1900]

Now if you electricians would learn building codes when it comes to drill floor joists. You can not cut, drill or notch the top two inches and the bottom two inches of a FJ. Being a plumber, this is extremely a pain in the A S S.

[@randallthomas5207]

Ducted HVAC are the worst. I found a six inch duct put through two eight inch floor joists at exactly mid-span. Had to design a strengthening system out of 5/16 steel to restore the strength, and install two four inch ducts to get the strength of the joists. If you have to drill through a joist it goes dead center

[@geneticdisorder1900]

@@randallthomas5207 Ever see data dweebs run a bundle of of wire through a spring loaded fire damper and be lazy AF and run through the top portion of a clevis pipe hanger.

[@Hoaxiin]

NEC tells us it just can’t be less than 1.25” from edge of hole to edge of joist 🤷

[@bryanherman1035]

I can't begin to describe how many times I've seen plumbers do that exact thing.

[@bryanherman1035]

@@Hoaxiin No, it doesn't. It's the middle third. The inch and a quarter rule only applies to wall studs, not rafters or joists.

[@wrdennig]

This is a common practice in the construction industry. About 30 years ago, California adopted the CEC (California Energy Code) which mandated insulation ratings for doors and windows. Unfortunately, the CEC was adopted before CEC-rated doors and windows were available. I had a devil of a time getting my new construction signed off.

[@BackyardMaine]

They did the same thing with AFCI protection. They mandated it before the product was actually available. I remember reading it in a code update and laughing..

[@wrdennig]

How did the building inspector respond?

[@BackyardMaine]

By the time most states had adopted the new code the technology was available. @@wrdennig

[@JohnD-JohnD]

When the wire starts getting that small, it's going to get easier for someone to confuse the smaller wires for low voltage wires and mistakenly cut them. Not sure it's worth it to run smaller wires and install smaller breakers, it limits future flexibility of renovations.

[@thomasjeffersoncry]

Who is the someone you are talking about? Someone who shouldn't be playing with wires?

[@JohnD-JohnD]

@@thomasjeffersoncry As someone who DOES play with wires for a living.. I can tell you that the smaller wires aren't a great idea for many reasons. It's not worth it.

[@thomasjeffersoncry]

I also play with wire for a living and have for 35 years and it is a great idea.

[@thomasjeffersoncry]

The wire can be colour coded just like all other wires are. very simple for people with half a brain to figure out.

[@JohnD-JohnD]

@@thomasjeffersoncry Change my mind.. WHY is this a good idea? To save a few bucks on copper?

[@stephangonzales1271]

I used a 10 amp breaker for a dedicated fireplace circuit. Fireplace only pulls 6 amps. Did this in October of last year. Just searched fireplace in my NFPA LINK code book and voila.

[@taxicamel]

Was the wiring already in ......or did you just install "a circuit"? Sounds like the fireplace was already installed .....or you just got a fireplace and the run is yet to be boarded(?) .

[@BackyardMaine]

A dedicated branch circuit in known in the code as an individual branch circuit. Notice that the code reference says in other than individual branch circuits.

[@boomergames8094]

The biggest cost with wiring is in the installation labor, not the parts cost (wire, breaker, device). Seems like the benefit to having 10 A is for dedicated circuits for things that it is good to turn off individually - garbage disposal, garage door opener, dishwasher... I foresee home builders saving 50 cents and doing 10A for too many circuits. Personally, I dislike having 15A circuits/outlets because too many things use 14-15 amps leaving zero capacity for anything else.

[@bryanherman1035]

All the equipment you listed are dedicated 20A circuits. And, just an FYI, you shouldn't be continually loading a 15A circuit with 14-15A. You should stay under 12A.

[@boomergames8094]

@@bryanherman1035 I know... but there are many things that are 15 amps or very near, like hair dryers, toaster, air fryer, space heater, microwave...

[@bryanherman1035]

@@boomergames8094Yeah, and those pesky condensers, electric cars, and hot tubs. We'll power all of it with solar anyway when Joe's 'Build Back Better' starts kicking in. Any day now.

[@HenryScheinDSMTechs]

I had no idea about this. That’s good information, thanks.

[@BackyardMaine]

You bet! Thanks for watching.

[@CharlesHuse]

Ok, I can see the 10 amp circuit for lighting only as long as LED lamps are used. But for everything else, given that the NEC limits the load on a branch circuit to 80% of the rating (at least that's what it was when I was in the trade a dozen years ago) it has always made sense to me to run 20 amp conductors on a 20 amp breaker. That give you a 16 amp capacity with a 4 amp safety margin. A 10 amp circuit would only be allowed 8 amps, or 12 amp on a 15 amp circuit, which would mean fewer lamp fixtures per run, and and possibly increase the cost of the installation by requiring more breakers and wiring to to meet the customer's lighting requirements.

[@BackyardMaine]

That’s 80% of continuous load.

[@rupe53]

many lighting fixtures have a proprietary socket so you can't screw in a larger bulb than intended by the mfgr. This keeps the bozo handyman from sticking 200 watt bulbs into a 60 watt flush mount.

[@taxicamel]

I think you are missing more important points of cocern with your detail .....which most certainly is NOT wrong. EXAMPLE: could someone move existing wiring around inside a panel and put 10 amp wires into 15 amp breakers? Why would they do that? Well, what if existing LED lights are changed out for incandescent for what ever reason ....and a breaker trips .....and let's pretend they have no idea why the breaker is tripping .....and they "investigate" .....and they come up with a "solution" .......all on their own ..........and save $100 on a service call? .

[@Alacritous]

Even at that. 8 amps at 120 volts is 960 watts which would be ~48 x 20 watt LED light fixtures.

[@ps.2]

Also, when @Alacritous says 48 × 20W fixtures, they don't mean 48 light bulbs or fixtures with built-in LEDs. Almost all of those are 10W or less. No, they mean, like, 48 2-bulb light fixtures. Add a few ceiling fans at ~60W each (not counting their lights), and you can _still_ cover a _lot_ of rooms.

[@jimjimmy3367]

This might be good for adding lighting branch circuits when you have a panel that is close to capacity amperage wise.

[@BackyardMaine]

The size of the breakers in the panel play no role in panel capacity. It’s the actual load that determines that. I’m going to make a video on that soon.

[@jolyonwelsh9834]

#16 AWG will save on box fill especially if there are 3-way dimmers and occupancy sensors involved.

[@LFTRnow]

Not a fan. The cost savings will be minuscule, and if you ever want even a single outlet, you have to rip out all the copper. The mere fact that some house could have various circuits with this limitation will be a pain, all to save a few $ in copper. What they need to go with this, as a minimum, is a new 10A outlet standard. For example, something with DC output and/or USB C outlets. A lot of what outlets get used for is plugging in "chargers" (whether you are charging something or not, think Amazon Echo/Alexas, tablets, laptops, etc). Without some standard for this 10A is pretty limiting and mostly useless.

[@jimsvideos7201]

What you stand to save on wire you'll probably spend on larger panels, assuming lighting power and receptacle power go to the same places.

[@BackyardMaine]

I always separate lighting and receptacle circuits anyway.

[@chuckdiesal83]

Even if manufacturers made a hypothetical 16 AWG romex, Table 210.24(1) shows the minimum copper conductor size on a 10A circuit is 14AWG. Why would I put a 10A breaker on a 14AWG and not a 15A breaker?

[@BackyardMaine]

Kind of what I said in the video. There are no current acceptable options. I think this was the first step and you will see the new wiring options added in the next cycle. 2026.

[@sjpropertyservices3987]

Thank you for sharing.

[@BackyardMaine]

My pleasure!

[@giantgeoff]

It's not going to change my practice of going up a gauge than the specified minimum for the circuit. I don't do a ton of electrical work so the cost difference pays for peace of mind.

[@Ronlawhouston]

I am wondering how consumers will cause problems with 10 amp circuits. It just seems small to me.

[@BackyardMaine]

Residential lighting loads are really small these days. Inspectors will have to make sure they’re not connected to receptacle outlets on rough in.

[@Ronlawhouston]

@@BackyardMaine That makes sense.

[@mxslick50]

​@@BackyardMaineYou're kidding I hope. Too many inspectors can't follow a circuit from start to finish as it is. And second, we all know for a fact that in residential at least, once the inspector leaves all bets are off. Joe homeowner is gonna tap off of that 10 amp circuit and swap the breaker for a 15 or 20 due to constant tripping.

[@pondking2801]

You are assuming the inspector hasn’t been bribed. When I did some investigation into my house to prep for a 50A circuit for an EV, I found a number of code violations that even the most brain dead inspector should have caught. The proposals for the installation of the 50A circuit from “master” electricians were quite entertaining, but I was not planning on burning my house down. Now, I don’t let anyone do electrical work on my house if I am not there to watch everything they do.

[@foogod4237]

@@mxslick50 Yeah, but by the same logic, the same homeowner has probably replaced all his 15 amp breakers with 20 amp ones too, and is gonna burn his house down one way or another anyway, no matter how hard you try. _You can't fix stupid using code rules._ I'm pretty sure this code change will actually mostly be used in commercial or high-density rental (apartments, etc) installs anyway. It could be really useful in a lot of those sorts of buildings which really do not need a full 15 amp circuit just for their lights, given modern technology.

[@person880]

10A makes perfect sense for dedicated lighting circuits that are relatively small (such as for small rooms). As always, the breaker current rating is what determines how much load you can put on a circuit, not the wire gauge in that circuit, and purchasing too many different cables is probably not worth it. Just keep running 14/2 on the 10A circuits. Two 15A circuits can now be three 10A circuits, which ultimately helps you segment your residence better.

[@user-nh3gu1ge3d]

"Saving" 4 cents per foot on materials while spending $150 per hour on labor is penny wise and pound foolish to me. There's no good value reason to not run a higher product when the cost of the product is so small vs the cost of labor. I get you could make the same argument to upgrade to 12 gauge over 14, but the difference between 10 and 15 is pretty huge, considering you can't run outlets on it, or basically anything other than LEDs. You can run pretty much anything on a 15 amp.

[@TheRayDog]

The good value reason is for DIYers. Material cost is 95% of the job.

[@kevindouglas2060]

The only place I have ever seen logical use of smaller wire and lighter fuses or breakers is the internal control wiring of equipment and machinery . These often run at small fractions of an amp and the size of the wiring is most often determined by its mechanical strength not its load carrying capacity.

[@user-nh3gu1ge3d]

@@TheRayDog No, the problem with that thinking is that you're saying all the labor is worth $0. It's not. Even if you provide the labor and it's "free", it's still 95% of the VALUE of the job.

[@TheRayDog]

@@user-nh3gu1ge3d You're missing the potential. Say 3 runs of 10 amp, to isolate sections of lighting to different breakers. Might mean more work, more switches, but more possibilities in the future. The purpose of the code is to facilitate reality, which today is low draw lighting, not to dictate what someone else thinks is a better way. At least it should be that way. 5 amps next.

[@user-nh3gu1ge3d]

@@TheRayDog No, actually, I'm thinking about the potential. You are the one missing the potential. Yeah, LEDs can be powered on it but basically nothing else. So when they want to add a fan? Hire an electrician. When they remodel? Add an appliance? An outlet? On and on and on. You're doing all the work and spending 99% of the money and ending up with something that can ONLY do 1 thing, whereas you could easily spend an extra 1% and get something that could easily accommodate pretty much anything in the future. It's the kind of moronic short sightedness that has left us with crappy cardboard houses that suck ass and cheap stuff that is not repairable and garbage that breaks in a couple years that replaced things that lasted 30+. How many 80+ year old houses have you been in that HAVEN'T been remodeled or changed in any way? Yeah, not many....

[@solarforfuture]

saved every piece of romex for the last 20 years... now my solar off grid city house runs fine on 2 20 amp feed circuits usually closer to 800 watts max..couple server rack batteries.. 14 salvage solar panels.. fun.. sparky

[@PowderMill]

If you’re roughing in YOUR home, would YOU run 16awg cable? I didn’t even run 14 in my home. EVERY branch receptacle and lighting circuit was 12awg and I used 15a breakers for the lighting loads. I also ran a shit ton of “Smurf” tubing for “future” LV and other tech. 2” PVC schedule 40 for attic to basement “chases” for future use. I used deep 1900 (4” square) boxes and mud rings for practically everything. It was our first home and we still live here , why would I ever consider “cutting corners”? Then again, it was 1997 and copper wasn’t priced like a precious metal. LOL This is absolutely a huge mistake by the NFPA. I am retired now, but still hit the supply house occasionally. The quality of everything seems to be dropping and the quality of the tradesfolk as well. I’m a volunteer firefighter/paramedic and have been since the 1980’s I am absolutely convinced this will lead to a rise in home structure fires. The “DIY” homeowner will eventually use 16awg with a 15 or 20 amp breaker because of limited supply or because there was a “spare” breaker in the panel. I always used to install a handful of 15a and 20a single-pole breakers in residential installations… for “future use”. I am seriously rethinking that logic now.

[@PowderMill]

⚠️ This is another example of “BIDENomics”. Let the foreign manufacturers make more profit as America is destroyed and dismantled and sold off.

[@foogod4237]

Personally, I would always run separate circuits for lighting vs receptacles. Receptacles I would definitely run 20 amp (12 AWG) circuits, but for lighting I would definitely be fine with 14 AWG (15 amp) or even 16 AWG (10 amp) circuits in most cases. With lighting circuits you already know pretty well what the load is going to be ahead of time, and it's only likely to keep going down as things get more efficient, not up, so running 12 AWG for lights is basically just throwing money away for absolutely no benefit.

[@geneard639]

huh.... I got interested in Electricals as a little kid. My grandparents home had a fuse box. It was a 10amp fuse box with 3 fuses rated for 2amps, 3amps and 5 amps. The 5amp fuse was for the kitchen with the refrigerator, the 3amp for the living room with the radio, and the 2amp for all the lighting. The week they got the brand new window AC and Color TV in the living room? Shear pandemonium. They had to add a new wire, dedicated receptacle and populate the 4th fuse in the fuse block. Even then a few years later the housing authority had to come in and rewire all the units with applique wire runs, changed the fuse box to a breaker box and put it indoors.

[@ethernet01]

the place where i see this being useful is a long run of #14, that serves for example bedroom or outside lights at the far end from the electrical panel instead of having to upgrade the run to 12/2, keep the 14/2 and use a 10 amp breaker instead i will keep sizing lighting runs assuming 100w for a single socket fixture or atleast 125w for a 2 socket fixture, and you should remember that bathrooms need a dedicated 15 amp lighting if you want the option of a heater-fanlight, 20 amp if theres more than 2 other fixtures, and please remember to not put the entire house on one lighting circuit, its gonna be fun when that trips on a dark night! edit: this also makes a lot of sense for running a circuit for a single light, adding to a existing house, or something with a dedicated lighting circuit like a single fixture on power or other pedestals, gates, landscaping, sheds, detached garages and well houses

[@eDoc2020]

You can already have long runs of 14 AWG wire on a 15 amp circuit. The widely circulated rules are to maintain under 3% voltage drop when loaded to full ampacity. In reality you only need to upsize the wire if needed for the actual supplied loads. If a circuit only has 3 amps of hardwired lights you can use that for calculations.

[@ethernet01]

@@eDoc2020 I did not consider that circuit ampacity for lighting was based on the actual fixtures not the 1875/1500 or 2500/2000w of a 15 or 20amp circuit i guess it would be more to cut costs on long individual runs then, single or few fixtures on the other end of the house or lighting only circuits on detached sheds and garages in addition to their 20 amp ones also thinking it would be a better option for hardwired home control/security systems and such, plus panel mounted doorbell transformers since all of those products have 18 awg pigtails and usually dont pull more than 25-60w under load

[@eDoc2020]

@@ethernet01 One little thing, you can't have a 10 amp lighting circuit as well as a receptacle circuit in detached buildings the way you describe. Excepting special situations each building can only have one feed of a given voltage. If you want a 10 amp lighting circuit and a 20 amp receptacle circuit in an outbuilding you need one feed and a subpanel. For this reason sheds are where it makes the most sense to have lighting on a 20 amp circuit. Also please don't wire an outbuilding with 120v only service. Make it a 120/240 MWBC or at least make sure the buried cable has a second hot for future expansion.

[@joer9276]

Still have to use those $60 cafci breakers. Are builders really this cheap! Use lighting circuits in more rooms.

[@foogod4237]

The cost savings isn't in the breakers, it's in the wire. Electrical wire costs can actually add up surprisingly fast when doing a whole building, etc, and being able to use 16 gauge in some places could actually be a significant savings (particularly in commercial properties, etc). Of course that's if we can actually get 16 AWG wire which can be used for this sort of thing...

[@eDoc2020]

@@foogod4237 I think the OP's saying that the savings in wire will be less than the extra cost of needing more breakers.

[@davemeise2192]

I'm not an electrician but I've wired several houses, a few sheds, garages and barns. Always inspected and passed by the way. I have always kept the lighting separate from the receptacles. When I was younger and we finally got power to our house I remembered a breaker tripping and it left us in the dark. It was a major issue for our mother to find and reset the breaker so, since then, I decided lighting should always be separate from anything else. With the current code changes, if I was an electrician, I still wouldn't use 10 amp circuits as one never knows how or what a homeowner will do in the future. So many people don't understand electricity, what a branch circuit is, what a load is etc and they could/will tap into a lighting circuit to "make it work" as, to them, power is power. Right?

[@twn5858]

Until the big box stores like Home Depot and Lowes start selling rolls of 16 awg wire this code change isn't going to make a difference.

[@BackyardMaine]

I agree.

[@charliesullivan4304]

We still need a code change allowing 16 gauge NM-B. That's what we're waiting for. Once that's done, the manufacturers will catch up quickly.

[@firefighter4443]

Could this possibly help me with my 1943 built house with 100 amp panel? I’m running out of capacity to install an electric car charger circuit, and upgrading to a higher main panel is cost prohibitive. Is there any way I could put my lighting on a single 10amp circuit and open up a few amps more for electric car charging?

[@BackyardMaine]

I circuit panels capacity has nothing to do with the size of the breakers in the panel but rather the current draw of each circuit. My guess is if you don't have electric heat you have plenty of capacity in the panel. An electrician could check that out for you and probably combine some circuits to give you the space needed.

[@gregf1299]

I have a fully populated panel too, so I wondered if my five individual lighting circuits were the problem. Talking only about ceiling fixtures. I have all LED, so there seems to be no further need to run all these individual circuits for a load that will never occur - and if it did, the breaker would prevent it.

[@dougphillips5686]

Great info. The minimum I run is 12 ga. It's future proof. If you run 14 ga and then decide you need more current, you have to add the expense of running 12 ga. That means you throw way the labor and material. And Labor is the big part -just spend the extra dollars up front and save yourself money!

[@vince6829]

Interesting development. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

[@YouMustBeConfused]

A builder that installs 10a circuits is instantly removed from consideration, imo. It adds unnecessary complexity at the panel and there will be zero cost savings when the wiring is still 14 ga. This is DAF

[@BackyardMaine]

16 gauge wire will be cheaper for certain and I don’t see where it adds complexity at the panel. Residential wiring is not complicated

[@murphymmc]

The caveat here is that someone will use 16ga and 10A where it should not be used. Some DIY'er will use 16ga for a receptacle, discovering too late the physics of how heaters work. I understand the reasoning behind it for lighting circuits but it almost as though it came from a "sitting around the table we should do this to show we earn our pay" decision. I don't think the price offset will be enough difference to make a difference. That's the way marketing works.

[@BackyardMaine]

Did you know that all 19 CMPs responsible for code updates are volunteers. They aren’t paid and several including electricians, consumers, manufacturers, designers, engineers and many other groups and the work on a consensus.

[@bnasty267]

About time. Honestly, they should allow for 5A lighting circuits while they're at it to allow industry time to start adopting. That is still almost 600W, and with LED bulbs using about 1/8th-1/10th of what incandescent used for the same output, that old 15A lighting circuit driving incandescent could be done with 2A. Cost is a big factor, but so is safety. Even the dumbest DIYer would realize their mistake using a 5A circuit for a receptacle, and the lower the Amps, the lower the risk of fire. Try a dead short on a 60A breaker vs a 15A breaker to see the difference. Plus, that 15A rated switch on 5A is now much less likely to fail early from micro-arcing, because it's 3X overbuilt.

[@mxslick50]

The dumbest diy'er would run to the box store and change that pesky 10amp breaker to a 15 or 20. I have seen many homes where Billy Bob has already replaced breakers to 20 or 30 amps on 14ga because of the pesky tripping. Once again the NEC is talking out their rears as this will become a serious hazard. Unless the use of 16ga wire and 10 amp breakers is restricted to commercial and industrial uses only.

[@ps.2]

@@mxslick50 On the plus side, hopefully 16g wire will pull out of receptacle back-stabs so easily that even the DIYer will notice and decide to use the dang screw terminals.

[@ricardobino7410]

Isn't that what it always should be? What did it say before? I'm not familiar with NEC, but everywhere else I've worked with electric circuits the capacity was always determined by the breaker, and the wire used must be equal or greater than the amperage allowed by the breaker.

[@BackyardMaine]

Yes. That part of the video was for context. The conclusion is even though there are no options for 16 gauge wire cost saving now we can alway up size the wire to 14 gauge and still have a 10A circuit.

[@bryanherman1035]

@@BackyardMaine But it would still have to be dedicated, and receptacles are still not allowed, so where is the benefit? Sounds like it just takes up an extra space and another 50-70 dollar breaker. As if AFCI and DFCI requirements weren't a big enough 'code change', or 'cash grab' as I like to call it, for the manufacturers.

[@BackyardMaine]

I think this is the first step for the NEC. I would expect that manufacturers will start making 16/2 and 16/3 power cable before the next code cycle and the change will come in 2026. Many electricians will separate receptacle and lighting circuits anyway so I don't see any additional breakers being needed. @@bryanherman1035

[@bryanherman1035]

@@BackyardMaine Yeah, I separate lighting/outlet circuits where necessary, like in a living room/dining room/common area, where loads are expected to be slightly higher than normal (load shedding the lights out of the outlet circuits, especially if multiple dimmers are being used), and I also combine them in other places where loads are not expected to be that high (bedrooms, mostly). My question is, why develop/make all these new products in the first place? Who is saving money? And how much? It 'sounds' like the main selling point is cost savings, but in reality I doubt it will save electricians or customers anything. The only people that win here are the manufacturers, increasing their profits by saving on materials. It's just like the AFCI/DFCI thing. I don't think AFCI/DFCI protection is really making people's homes that much safer, negligibly anyway IMO, but it sure is a good excuse to turn a 5-20 dollar breaker into a 40-70 dollar one. And who does that benefit the most? Certainly not electricians, and certainly not customers.

[@augustaking8]

No more than 80% of the breaker rating.

[@BackyardMaine]

That only applies to continuous loads.

[@charliesullivan4304]

​@@BackyardMainesuch as lighting

[@kenbrown2808]

@@charliesullivan4304 only if you have all of the lights on for 3 hours at a time. residential lighting is assumed to not be a continuous load, because the only time all the lights are left on all day is when dad's not home. heating is the only load that is automatically defined as continuous in residential circuit calculations.

[@augustaking8]

The NEC doesn't require you to live with your Dad.@@kenbrown2808

[@HCkev]

I can see using 14 gauge wire for LED recessed lights, with a 10A beaker. Since those doesn't consume much power, if the circuit is surpassing 10A, then most likely there is something wrong. And since 14 gauge wire is used, it also allows opportunities to replace the lighting later with a different type of lighting that's more power hungry, would only need to replace the breaker for a 15A

[@Mike-01234]

Home builders always looking to pinch a penny at your expense like Aluminum wired homes of the 1970's.

[@carlubambi5541]

Wonder if these changes will come to Canada and change the CEC and the OEC for Ontario .CSA and ESA in Ontario always changing some things but these AFCI garbage must stop .Nuisance tripping is a big issue and can't be put in older homes where lighting and receptacles and other devices are on the same circuit

[@BackyardMaine]

I agree with the AFCI issue. They are so bad that many people ask the electricians to change them out after inspection. Of course we can’t but I’m sure a lot of homeowners are doing it themselves.

[@dieselsoggydog6299]

I use to own a house that had 16 GA wire and 10 amp breakers. Built back in 1950. How many people are going to slap a 15 amp breaker on that 16GA later on not realizing its not 14 GA.

[@BackyardMaine]

What people do later is always a concern but there is that risk no matter what the size. I’ve actually seen 30A breakers with 14 gauge wire.

[@mxslick50]

This is the stupidest thing ever. So we start allowing 16ga wire and 10 amp circuits in residential. Then some dumb diy'er taps off of that to add more loads. Then the 10 amp breaker keeps tripping. The dumbest diy'er would then run to the box store and change that pesky 10amp breaker to a 15 or 20. I have seen many homes where Billy Bob has already replaced breakers to 20 or 30 amps on 14ga because of the pesky tripping. Once again the NEC is talking out their rears as this will become a serious hazard. Unless the use of 16ga wire and 10 amp breakers is restricted to commercial and industrial uses only.

[@OnePointLander]

As a dumb diyer I agree 👍

[@kenbrown2808]

yep, did a service call to a house where I found out the 15A AFCI breakers had been changed out to 30A standard breakers, because the house was wired to absolute code minimums, and the portable sauna and crypto mining computers kept tripping the breakers. the problem I was called for turned out to be a stretch of wire that had overheated and burned out. fortunately, it was accessible without major structural excavation.

[@bryanherman1035]

I had a guy, who's house had literally almost burned down, go into OUR new panel, and switch the 10AWG stove feed from a 30A to a 50A, because, and I quote, "That's what it is supposed to be." I told him he was wrong, and why that is dangerous AF, and switched the breaker back. The next time we showed up to finish the job, it was on a 50 again. I changed it back again, finished the job, left, and told my boss to call the inspector and let him know that house would burn down again soon and why. And he did. It was a hilarious conversation to listen to. But basically we ended up being absolved of any guilt when it eventually happens, because the homeowner was tampering with the BRAND NEW electrical system in his house.

[@williambates6811]

There would have to be considerable cost savings to run anything smaller than 14 gauge for light circuits. Houses built in the late 80's and 90's had 10 amp breakers used on lighting circuits. The cost of materials is cheap compared to labor now. One challenge with 16 gauge wiring would wipe out all savings in material. The I could see using 16 gauge wire for hard wired smoke alarms,

[@eDoc2020]

16awg wire is thinner and more flexible then 14awg so installation should be easier and cheaper.

[@ThunderClawShocktrix]

yeah thats where IO see it shing low power dedicated circuits also for lighting units in apartment buildings i doubt most units even in the incandenst days would have needed more than 10A for the lights+ceiling fans if it had any of those

[@johnparkhurst825]

Some bureaucrat has to justify their job, I mean position .

[@BackyardMaine]

Maybe.

[@davidwillmore]

Another thing to keep in mind about this is that incandescent bulbs have about 6x the current draw when cold than they do when they are hot--sure, thats only going to be a fraction of a second, but it matters especially on larger fixtures. It wasn't unusual to have a 400W fixture with incandescent lighting. 3.3A when running, but 20A for a few cycles when turning on. An equivalent LED fixture will use .3A all the time. Still think you need a 15A circuit for modern lighting? I could turn on every light in my house and not draw 12A. It's time to take advantage of the improvement in lightning efficiency.

[@striker1211]

Penny wise pound foolish, imo

[@peterrose5373]

Nothing foolish about it if you're building for the mass market. Predatory, but not foolish.

[@Kook-a-mal]

Sometimes I only want the circuit for just one item (think hot tub or compressor…). For such a dedicated utility, I’d rather not have too much headroom for the device’s long life. But still run 12/3, always use good copper!

[@celsostarec6735]

The logic of using NEMA or DIN/IEC miniature circuit breakers (MCB) is selectively protecting circuits from both over-current (thermo, cumulative effect) and short-circuits (magnetic, instantaneous effect). Cost pressure drove the use of higher capacity circuits powering a wide scope of loads in the past. Newer projects might privilege narrower scopes of loads per circuit with more selectivity in the protection. More circuits of less powered. DIN/ISO MCBs are rated as low as 2A. 10A, 16A, 20A, 25A, 32A, ... are usual options. Brazilian NBR5410, the local equivalent to the NEC, also allows for the use of 1,5mm2 circuits for illumination or control, but requires 2,5mm2 or higher dimension cabling for any outlet serving circuit. Breakers must avoid misuse of any circuit. The 10A option is a tool for adequate future lighting circuits. 1100VA is quite a lot of load in the SSL LED era. Could power up to some 40 to 50 units of 18W 4ft (1,2m) LED tubes.

[@tommy2u]

You pretty much have to use a larger wire size for a specified load since the wire can only be loaded to 80% capacity. I.e, a 15 amp load requires a 20 amp conductor at 80%, or 16 amps, even on a 15 amp breaker, to be adequately covered. You can use a 15 amp wire only if the load is 12 amps or less.

[@DonTruman]

I presumed a branch circuit always was rated according to the breaker. E.g., sometimes the wire does need to be larger, to compensate for voltage drop on long runs. 10A does sound like a good idea, due to the crazy high cost of wire these days. Could be used for lighting, or individual appliances that require dedicated circuits. Maybe even 10A-2P breakers for 240v.

[@kenbrown2808]

I'm sure manufacturers are already tooling up and low bid electricians are already clearing shelf space for 18-3 romex and 210 AFC breakers. I'll stick with my opinion that lighting circuits are 15 amps, and plug circuits are 20 amps. I've increased the coverage per circuit for my lighting circuits, since my receptacle circuits cover the 3VA per square foot, but that way I still have the capacity to put a heat lamp on a lighting circuit if I need to. although I notice they've reduced the wattage of heat lamps, recently.

[@BackyardMaine]

That would be 16 AWG wire. I do the same but the only issue is what may go out if trip or turn off a breaker.

[@kenbrown2808]

@@BackyardMaine yeah, fatfinger mistake.

[@kenbrown2808]

@@BackyardMaine also, i tend to do one floor per lighting circuit, but since i separate lighting and receptacles, i can always plug in a worklight.

[@marcmakes1725]

use your 10 amp circuit for your 48V DC PoE lighting. You probably won't even run the circuit more than 15 foot to the PoE equipment that's going to be in your wiring closet.

[@davidwillmore]

This is a great change. I would like to see 5A as well. 5A is a ton of power for LED lighting. For recepticals? Oh, no no no. But for a lighting circuit with LED fixtures? Makes a lot of sense.

[@tgsparkyoriginal]

It’s interesting learning about other countries wiring rules. In Australia we have been using 10A breakers on light circuits for decades. We have two light cables that are smaller than your 16g cable. Ours are a little smaller than you 16g and the smallest is equivalent to a 19g wire.

[@BackyardMaine]

I think you run 220v in Australia right? That would cut the amperage in half as well which is why you can run smaller wire.

[@wrdennig]

I've never considered wiring receptacles with anything less than 20 amps, because I assume that some homeowner is going to plug in a space heater and overload the circuit. I don't enjoy wiring devices with 12awg, but would rather have the protection.

[@Superdonko]

Stepping down to low voltage DC using PoE on CAT-5 or similar category of cable for high efficiency LED lighting might be easier than making a new standard for lighting only circuits.

[@foogod4237]

It's not "a new standard", it's actually just a relaxation of the existing standards (everything is still wired exactly the same way, and uses the same (standard) devices, it just allows using a wider range of breaker/wire types, depending on what's actually needed). Using PoE for this sort of thing would _actually_ be introducing a new standard, not the other way around. And PoE is actually a pretty crappy power solution unless you're dealing with a relatively small number of devices which already need network connectivity anyway. It's a great design for a few specialized types of devices, but is really not the right solution for wiring up all the light fixtures in a house, for example. (There are also quite a few really good reasons why we've standardized on 120V/240V AC power for our entire power infrastructure, including household fixtures and devices. It actually works very well, including being much more effective and efficient for power delivery (especially over any significant distance) than low voltage DC actually ever could be.)

[@BetterHouseProject]

Great explanation as usual. Just in case I missed something important: At timestamp 4:08 you note that the 16AWG cable is only in the 90° column and imply that it therefore cannot be used as branch circuit wiring. Other wire types in the 90-degree column (e.g. THHN) are used in branch circuits, so I'm not sure that's what you intended. Sometimes the terminations are rated at only 60° or 75° which derates the entire circuit. Is that the implication? I just want to follow your logic.

[@vincebrashear]

I think the issue is that there is no ampacity given for 16 AWG in the 60 or 75 degree C columns. Devices rated less than 100 amps may only be rated for 60 C so wire ampacity must be derated to the 60 C column, but there is no rating given.

[@Ferndalien]

At 1:35 to 1:40 the displayed section of the NEC was mis read. What John said (and I listened several times was "... the ampere rating or setting of the specified over current device shall be determined by the circuit rating." What the text reads is: ... the ampere rating or setting of the specified over current device shall determine the circuit rating." What he said is the reverse of what it reads. Which is right?

[@BackyardMaine]

Yup I made a mistake. It's not easy being on camera. lol Right after that I explained that the circuit size is determined by the breaker not the wire so I think everyone got it right.

[@TheRayDog]

Long overdue change. 5 amps is a better lower limit given the low draw of lights, but this is a good start.

[@PressRecord777]

I'm confused... why would a higher-temperature-capable wire like THHN be *less* acceptable in a branch circuit than a lower rated wire like THWN?

[@BackyardMaine]

It’s a long answer but in short the NEC currently only allows 16 and 18 gauge wire for specific applications. But I think this new change allowing 10A branch circuits is a first step to get the manufacturers going. For now we can use the new lower limit but only with 14 gauge wire. Expect that to change in the 2026 cycle.

[@jacobpetersen5662]

My new 2023 house is wired ALL 20 Amp and 12 gauge wires. SO happy to have that before this 10 amp change.

[@ssaraccoii]

As an observation, a lot of the 50’s-era houses I’ve come across have a single 15 amp breaker that powers all overhead lighting in the house. All of the lighting only.

[@clsanchez77]

Agree with your suspicion. I also think this is in response to LED circuits.

[@brianmcdermott2430]

Great info., thank you , John.

[@BackyardMaine]

Thanks for watching!

[@SirRoxo]

when you mentioned 10amp I immediately thought "LED lights" and, yup!

[@christopherperry173]

This video sparked my curiosity as I'm currently going to school and taking the 2023 code course. I'm having trouble finding where you said you can't use a smaller gauge wire in the 90deg column for branch circuits. I don't doubt you but just want to read it myself. I did find all the 10amp requirements. Thanks!

[@BackyardMaine]

I’m not at home so I don’t have my code book with me so I’m going from memory here. I think it may be 210.24 which restricts 10A circuits to a minimum 14AWG copper wire and 12AWG aluminum where permitted.

[@briancords6681]

I am also confused. I thought 90 degree wire was the best choice for branch circuits due to the temp rating of the wire verses the temp rating on the terminals for devices and breakers.

[@cajuncoinhunter]

I've ran electrical crews for a quite some time and can tell you that the average 3 bedroom 2 bathroom house would save about 5 to ten dollars going with the lower amp ratings. That's if the materials were available at a lower cost..... Having a extra roll of of wire on hand just might increase the cost of time and materials.....

[@BackyardMaine]

Not at all. The difference between 12 and 14 is 20% and that’s not including the fact that 14 is quicker to make up as well. I would estimate a minimum of 25% saving overall on lighting.

[@MLampner]

Interesting change. I wonder down the road as the number of low v devices proliferate how the code may change to move beyond hybrid outlets that have a USB port to actually having circuits wired from the panel extending low voltage to specialized outlets. Example my Macbook is powered by usb, as are increasing number of other devices beyond phones.

[@jcnash02]

The Milwaukee tools on the bench is how we know he’s a real electrician

[@thomasjeffersoncry]

I have been talking about this for years, to Save copper and money on labour while wiring lighting. But this doesn't take it far enough, I want to see 5 amp breakers. A 10 amp circuit can still safely power between 80 & 106 led pot lights. So going to 5 amp would be have much better savings and ease of installation, while still allowing 40-53, 9-12 watt pot lights.

[@donaldhollingsworth3875]

In my area 14 gauge is not requirement but 12 gauge is required for lights & receptacles. While 10 gauge is required for all 230/240 outlets.

[@BackyardMaine]

What area? I want to look that up. I have never heard of this being required anywhere.

[@crazysquirrel9425]

I use 14 for single outlet/light. Like refrigerator or a hallway light. Much depends on the end use of the fixture. 12 is hard to work with in many applications. And is not necessary for low current applications.

[@BackyardMaine]

Absolutely.. I referenced 12 AWG wire incase someone was watching had a 20A circuit. I would want them to run 14AWG for them. But I almost always wire lighting circuits with 15A breakers and 14 gauge wire.

[@crazysquirrel9425]

@@BackyardMaine For me, I try to match things up best I can. Love single circuits even for outlets (Most of them I do are awg12, 15A breaker and 20A outlet. Just to be sure that if they plug in a space heater or motor bunny, it won't cause a fire. Did a buddy's house that way. LOADS of single circuit outlets, especially for entertainment centers. Those 1000w thumping speakers do draw a lot of power. I labeled the ends of the romex and just outside the panel as well as the tag on the load center door. Inspector liked that lol. No guess work. No fun driving a ground rod through a concrete basement floor with a low ceiling.... Old house...

[@gregf1299]

Running a lighter gauge of wiring is one thing, but is there a code reason that we need so many individual ceiling lighting circuits (I have 5)? It seems a 10 amp circuit would be enough for all of the overhead lights in a typical residence, right?

[@BackyardMaine]

Lights used to draw close to ten times the current of the new LEDs. I think my entire lighting load may be less than 5A now if every light was turned on. Light circuits (by code) are sized by load. So realistically most homes could run on one circuit.

[@ronnyhusser1583]

I was thinking this coming about because of LED lighting, and would be cost affective ,but, I would not recommend wiring a lighting branch circuit where the lighting fixtures with an Edison type screw shell, I can picture some one using a screw shell adapter the type with a place for plugs or using a non LED bulb then potentially overloading the circuit. If the 10 amp rated branch circuit was used with only LED fixtures that did not use a screw shell and used strictly a diode, I can see this having a useful application in the near future.