𝐇𝐎𝐖 Bad Are Low-Tours in MVM? - MVM Statistics

[@DEWILL]

This video can be VERY controversial so let me clarify: No, the purpose of the video isn't to spread hate against new players. New players, so-called Low-Tours, are awful compared to High-Tours, veterans. Of course. Like everything in our life, a less experienced will be worse than a seasoned veteran. But it seemed that in many arguments about MVM, mentioning something like that was prohibited. When someone says something that implies that, people like: "Ok, you're a Tacobot. Go kill yourself". It's like 'You are a Tacobot or an innocent, no in-between'. Rage without proper reasonings. That's why I thought bringing out objective, neutral statistics is required. Feel free to share your thoughts on this. I hope that this doesn't start yet another flame war. Hate doesn't solve any problems. Never was, and never will.

[@Barmem]

Ofc so called "low tours" are "bad". What's your point?(haven't watched video yet, just wanna comment on the title) Watched the video. So actual(non clickbait) title should be "MVM stats between different skill levels"

[@C.A._Old]

Oh Yeah ? did you Finish Mvm.pineapple.tf Son ? Beacuse you damn idiot.

[@masterambush864]

@@Barmem Truly confused on how the current title is clickbait

[@carsonferg]

@@masterambush864 yea exactly the question is in the title then he answers it. Where is the clickbait?

[@Skeletor_facts-u6t]

this guy doesn't know how huntsman bleeds work

I am surprised that ‘‘a willingness to listen to advice and learn’’ was not mentioned *that much* as a possible factor for classifying someone with poor performance as ‘bad’.

[@DEWILL]

Cause it's pretty much impossible to quantify. I know too that as long as the player is willing to listen and learn, nothing can go wrong, no matter how bad they are. I needed a way to score each player in order to get proper statistics, so had to stick with this idea. Maybe it could be better, but well.

@@DEWILL Understood.

[@TheZombieTurkey]

@@DEWILL low tour =/= low skill, boot camp exists

[@lilymatthosinhos2086]

@@DEWILL have you ever played celeste

[@lilymatthosinhos2086]

@@DEWILL also,demo being the only one with not everyone doing well because a guy WAS DRUNK while playing is very fitting lmao

[@WeezyTF2]

This is one of the best mvm videos ever created, the editing made the info extremely easy to digest. Going forward this will be an extremely useful data collection to reference, excellent job. I also appreciate you taking the time to dismantle the "All gas Pyros are apes" mentality. I've been told many times that the gas passer is what made pyro players bad, as their whole gameplan became "run in, throw gas, die", apparently forgetting that before the gas was in the game, their gameplan was simply "run in, die". Very happy to see data back that assertion up. Well done.

[@Tom-cj5wt]

all gas pyros are in fact apes though. regardless of tour count, if you use gas, you are not playing pyro to its fullest potential, and you are demonstrating a willful lack of skill. pyro can be a good class in the hands of a good player, and 99% of the time that good player will be a high tour, and 100% of the time that good player will not use gas. gas passer alone has not made low tour pyros bad, but it has made them significantly worse. in hundreds of tours i have never once seen a single gas pyro play well. i have however seen non-gas pyros play well, regardless of their tour count. however, judging by your obvious lack of knowledge and skill in mvm demonstrated by your latest video Weezy, your opinion here doesnt come as a surprise to me. in that one video alone, i could easy pick out many points that you made, or footage you showed, that shows your lack of understanding and your lack of skill, and yet people still take your videos seriously. there are a few of your videos that are actually good and spread good enough advice, especially the class specific videos (not all of them), but lately it has become obvious that you are another boosted high tour who is spreading bad advice to new players, because you think that it is good advice even though it isnt. meanwhile the actual mvm pros make dozens of amazing videos and guides which essentially get ignored because theyre "toxic" players or because their guides say something controversial.

[@marcuscheng9413]

Tacoboi

[@ind0minusr3x51]

@@Tom-cj5wt ok tacobot

[@Azertyism]

@@Tom-cj5wtSo what I'm getting here is that people don't like explode on ignite gas passer because it doesn't need skill, which (Don't flame me) is a valid point, but even high tours have to agree that the thing is Overpowered and if that's the best thing a noob can use, don't yell at them and try to kick them, Engineers use wranglers which also doesn't need skill and is broken (All you need to do is point and click at an enemy while doubling firerate and boosting effective HP) but do they get yelled at and kicked at?

[@Tom-cj5wt]

@@Azertyism im a high tour and i dont agree that gas is OP. There are far better secondaries such as detonator and thermal thruster. You dont need gas to kill crowds of bots, pyro is good enough at that without gas. Also i dont use wrangler, and most good high tours dont either, short circuit is usually used as it pairs well with widowmaker (so we dont use rescue ranger either).

[@Zorroark]

BREAKING NEWS: Players that have less experience than those with more experience perform worse on average! Seriously how is that controversial in this community?

[@DEWILL]

Think I said it at the start of the video, though

[@vittripps]

That in of itself is not(or at least shouldn't be) controversial. There just so happens to be small and vocal subset of the TF2 community that uses that basic fact of co-op games to bully new players for some reason.

[@jacoblebold8462]

It’s a knee jerk response to things like Tacobot.

[@Sparkz1607]

it's not; this controversy is imaginary and is manufactured by the toxic people to draw attention away from their bad behavior by misrepresenting the opposition, who doesn't like being bitched at for not being a god at MvM, as refusing to acknowledge the skill difference.

[@lampionmancz]

I am a low-tour and I'd just like to say that I'd like to learn and to play MvM well however what discourages me from doing that is that most of the time I meet someone good at MvM they are not willing to tell me what to play but scream insults at me for ten minutes and then kick me. That's why I think that the MvM community is toxic. And getting advice from them is impossible.

[@kaimacdonald3006]

Try playing easier tours, such as anything that isn't two cities and they probably will be less toxic. I don't know if you are playing two cities, but more serious people tend to play that so learning the game is easier and people are more relaxed

[@lampionmancz]

@@kaimacdonald3006 Yeah I am. Thanks for the advice.

[@teedeegremlin]

The high-tours aren't always fun to play with, unfortunately, and they'll usually leave 5 seconds after joining. I hope you can get a better experience of Mann Up one day.

[@ghoulbuster1]

Average high tour: join game Check tour count of every player if anyone has less than 999 tours leave the game repeat

[@lampionmancz]

@@ghoulbuster1 About correct.

[@kaimacdonald3006]

I played a coal town tour and met a f2p all stock pyro who never bought an upgrade the whole game. They killed the tank with their fire are and got 2000 damage in 6 waves. What a chad

[@aqop5548]

He is not a chad, he is the chad of the chads

[@yugiO608]

@@aqop5548 he is the omega chad

[@cardinalsnail6217]

@@yugiO608 He is the Chaddest of Chads

[@yugiO608]

@@cardinalsnail6217 he is the chaddest of even the chaddest of chads

[@boldCactuslad]

unupgraded f2p pyro proving once again that even blind noobs can win mvm. get that man a medal

[@LynxLynxX_lol]

I have over 1k hours on TF2, but i started to play Mann Up recently, so i am just tour 2 guy, and it really sucks, becouse people care only about the tour number and are using it against me. Despite me knowing more than they do. So when i miss 5$ as a scout becouse of my teams fault, one guy just vote kicks me and types "Stupid useless scout" in the chat. This video shows the hidden side of the good low-tourers. Yes, they exist. I really love this video and I want to thank you so much for making it.

[@sake5965]

Bro noone gives a shit that youre bad ar mvm or whatever just play the game. Mvm community is worse than trading community, only manchildren coping their way through life.

[@sirguinea3513]

I'm happy to say I've never experienced this. Everyone I've seen has been well mannered and patient, when I actually get Australian servers.

[@teedeegremlin]

Over 80 tours and I haven't seen a scout getting votekicked for missing money in like a year, god I hope it gets better for you. A fun quote from a friend of mine, btw: in MvM, Scout is only as good as his team allows him to be.

[@teedeegremlin]

@@EpslionBear That's even stupider somehow what.

[@FlakkerDPS]

Same tbh. I never touch mann up. Only boot camp and community servers and I know my game perfectly fine, but if I were to play M.U I'd probably get fucked 'cause "he's low tour!" My brother in christ i've beaten 666 as every class and sub class just for the heck of it, tf you on about.

[@critkey2292]

Well that's a lot of information to understand just to answer a few questions, but all that aside, great work making this video, it it impressive the amount of effort you put in, it is really useful information to the community, and it show us a lot of MvM player statistics that we can take in consideration, also....how are you even alive after playing so much MvM and taking notes of EVERY player of all the tours played, i love it, but, damn, it takes a lot to go to that intensity

[@theclassyviking7351]

I'm a complete outsider to the MVM community and this whole thing is hilarious to me. You had to play a thousand games, and carefully record everything every teammate you had did while still playing yourself, to collect 5000 cases of recorded player behavior, and break everything down in editing and re-watches of the footage, create a quantifiable graph of what makes good or bad play, and assign the number to every single class each player played in every game, to finally set it all up as dozens and dozens of easily digested graphs. And all of this, just to prove to the MVM community that "new players and people who dont play often aren't very good". Which is like, yea, of course, that applies to every game ever made, and you still needed to teach people this concept, and the funniest part is I'm sure some people will still argue against this basic fact of life or be mad at you for being mean and elitist, absolutely absurd.

[@pcarrierorange]

My city funded a study to evaluate whether more cars makes traffic worse. Pretty sure they spent several hundred thousand dollars on it.

[@theclassyviking7351]

@@pcarrierorange 🧠

[@flyingstonemon3564]

Now It's scientifically proven at least...

[@sake5965]

Bro that video is dogwater. How bad are new players ? Thumbnail : very Okay thanks dewill no need to watch the 30m. Thus video was made to please the mvm cringelords

[@kellymountain]

@@sake5965 what the hell do you mean by mvm cringelords

[@terepashinogenjitsu]

Playing demo while drunk is actually the meta, stays true to the character

[@nick4754]

I feel like the comments taking issue with this video are mostly because of the fact that the mvm community is damn near radioactive, and getting into mvm seems near impossible for even veterans of the regular game

[@ihazsucks]

mvm isn't that toxic. heck even mann up is pretty chill

[@logancox3308]

If you continue with this it might be smart to get other people to get data due to time zones so many players wouldn't be playing aswell as doing it over a longer period of time, also maybe have more data like severs and ping cause that can be a factor into how they play as I know it discouraged me from playing scout and tanked my performance. Also it would be interesting to see the other tours like mecha engie due to how different it is

[@MrPwner911]

As someone who literally played Mann up for the first time yesterday, I can confirm I wasn't exactly great at the mode (though I held my own as heavy a decent set-up). I was with a friend who had a few tours under his belt and he was a good medic who helped out and gave me a few pointers on how to do Mann-up.

[@yspear_]

Dont forget the second tick of firing speed don't work

[@teedeegremlin]

Having a friend with some experience helps a lot. I've been helping some friends learn too when playing MvM.

[@MrNobleme]

another way to see this is all new players are low tours, but all low tours may not be new players. Some may use the mvm ticket trick where they leave b4 end of game to not consume their ticket and play other missions. So they're always stuck at current tour as they dont care abt the rewards. Some low tours could just be using alts.... So i think the vid title could change? instead of how bad are low tours, i think it should be how bad are new players? But good video overall, i agree with most points

[@iamleftie]

also consider the somewhat regular presence of community MvM events -- while that might not affect performance of classes contingent on pre-existing mission knowledge, like Demo and Spy and maybe some others depending on context, community events can help build gamesense greatly in a way that the amount of tours will never be able to accurately portray. In a way, the moment you play community MvM and find success, your tour count immediately becomes an irreparably outdated and incorrect statement of your skill level. I consider myself an average or maybe even above average player solely because of my hours of experience outside of Mann Up, but being on only tour 2 on every operation *within* Mann Up... that'll never be something I could easily prove to a player that sees the 2 next to my name and immediately passes judgement. Tl;dr tour number means nothing, bad actors need to stop kicking low tours on join and actually see their performance first.

[@Helixneek]

Some low tours can be people who play mostly on boot camp and only done a tour or two to try it out.

[@Nyxael5845]

​@@iamleftieOn my 20th tour of Two Cities I had a guy with over 1500 tours ask me if I had reset my tour badge because I was playing Heavy ridiculously well for my tour count. I play a LOT of community MvM servers so the experience carries over.

[@RetroCiri]

Ironically, playing with low tours is much more pleasant than playing with arrogant and asshole high-tours. New players won't learn anything if most of the time the only criticism they hear is "useless scout" or literally a votekick. This is how, in a way, TF2 is dying. You have these high-tours on their high horse scolding and kicking new tours, which in turn makes the new player leave the game (because who likes toxicity), and then the same high-tours have #savetf2 in their username. Irony on a new level. Oh and the video's good. Just really said what I observed myself.

[@thegames4565]

I hate seeing the game like this, it wasnt like that when I played frequently and that wasnt even that long ago

[@dakota9114]

Well made video, glad that the information is out there. Scared to see how many more low tours are gonna get flamed by high tours using this video as a justification, though.

[@dakota9114]

@@risa1467 True i guess, I just think theyre going to start using this video as an excuse for their "reasoning for kicking low tours because theyre so much worse, look, this video proves it", just a scapegoat in a way

[@MrMapacheumr]

Yes, this is the kind of videos that make everybody kick me as pyro

[@b_mbyz]

ignoring the topic of this video i just wanna say that the editing in this video is amazing, it was clean, slick, dynamic and overall really pretty. Great video dewill c:

[@svend555]

I Played MVM first like 5 years ago and I couldn't figure out why I was kicked. When I look back on it then it's maybe because I thougth that sun on a stick with max health on kill was giving me overheal I understand now the frustration that some players have when somebody is messing up so bad. I can also relate to the agony that newbies have when they get kicked. We all just have to stand together and listen to what each other says then we all get those memories that for my part MVM is all about (Btw nice video covering the topic I know it must be hard to not get critizised for speaking aloud around this topic)

[@mauser98kar]

I like to think that the drunk guy playing Demo just went for roleplaying for deeper immersion.

[@ralphthejedimaster]

by far the worst affect of tacobot is that everyone knows the name tacobot, and just uses it as a convenient reason to not listen to anyone about anything to do with MvM because they can just call them a tacobot and therefore don't have to listen to them

[@DEWILL]

Exactly what I wanted to say. Sad that it's true.

[@waluigiisthebest2802]

@@DEWILL You’re kind of guilty of spreading this…

[@Link_Idk]

Huh.

[@DatVeve]

People in the internet cannot form their own opinions so they use excuses like tacobot stereotype to do it for them

[@shadowsniper9542]

One of the things I think might have been impacted by your presence was the pick rate of sniper. As you mentioned during the video, you played a considerable amount of sniper during this data collection. Because sniper is such a high ceiling high floor class, and you were often among the highest tour counts, it would make sense to me that a lot of mid-tours and high-tours with the skill and confidence to play sniper, and perform well, yielded the role to you because of you having a higher tour count. Just something to think about with the absurdly low pick rate compared to how impactful sniper is, something mid and high-tours should be aware of.

[@DEWILL]

That’s why I started to record what role I was playing in the game after some recordings. Maybe doing some statistics with those can bring some interesting results! And despite the fact that I played Sniper a lot compared with others, I still think that pick rate feels natural. At least in my experiences, people just not want to give him a shot

[@LordRemiem]

You are a MADMAN for doing such an enormous task and I respect it 😮 as now I only played Oil Spill but before jumping into Two Cities I've read guides and watched videos... where I learnt some really useful tips, like the disposable sentry being borderline useless :)

[@cammy2point1]

I really hate that because my name has a three digit number next to it I can't say anything, constructive or not, to new players without being called a "toxic high-tour" or a "tacobot"

[@blackholetl]

As a guy who spent years playing and loving boot camp and possibly having the equivalent of hundreds of tours if they counted it. I can say that low tours aren't always a good thing to count by but there are times when it is true and like everything there are outliers but if you just kick low tours then they will never become high tours.

[@DEWILL]

It’s impossible to quantify if they played games outside of paid mann up, because it doesn’t count. So if they had low tour count but played good, they’ll get recorded as good low tours. Plus, I don’t kick players. As long as they’re playing.

[@blackholetl]

@@DEWILL wasn't saying you did kick low tours and I have since reached my twentieth tour and beyond on expert as that is the cheaper option. Though, I think tf2 should have some way of quantifying boot camp playthroughs or even have a way to do mann-up nightmare missions though I guess once you have the meta for nightmare down it would just be too easy to farm.

[@lochsry9054]

I cannot believe the stars aligned in such a way that a high-tour guy faslified the data, because he was *drunk* and playing *demo* It's so perfect

[@mezosithebest]

I would like to throw in an exceptional case - me. In practice, I have a lot of time in Boot Camp, and I'm a participant at community MvM campaigns for years. The latter statement is proven by the medals, which I could collect (when there were medals implemented) - both on Potato's and Pineapple's servers. On paper, I'm a low-tour MvM player of Mann Up. Why? There are 2 reasons for that: 1. I'm not that wealthy to waste money on Tour of Duty tickets (freely). 2. I don't care about MvM rewards much. I have bought recently enough tickets to beat all of the official tours, because to make a formal mark, and because it's silly that I don't have any of those after so much playtime in TF2. In short: I would add the minority case of "I'm decent, but I don't have the budget to prove it".

[@bumpkin8009]

K

[@teedeegremlin]

That's fair. Not everyone can afford to waste money on what is essentially a poor financial decision.

[@upon1772]

Same with my friend and I. We both have about 1.3K hours in TF2 (probably 1K hours just in MvM), but neither of us have used a tour of duty ticket because we can't justify the cost of buying it just to get rewards we don't care about. He's about the best scout I've ever seen playing boot camp, and even when we have a terrible team, he will still collect damn near all the money. If he does miss money, its usually because someone killed a spy at the spawn on Rottenburg, and they didn't collect the money afterwards. When we have terrible teams, we usually just leave because its not worth the time. Unfortunately, like 75% of the servers we go into on advanced anymore are like this, and it can get annoying at times when new players go straight to advanced or expert, when there are easier waves to practice on, but we never vote kick anyone unless they're being a total ass-hat for no reason. If we have a team that looks like they're even remotely trying we always give them a chance, and we try to help them out if they're willing to accept it. We both get that not everyone has the money or wants to pay to play Mann Up, and they're just in it for the fun of it, like we are.

[@conducktorwhirlwarstartera5055]

I've seen too many low tour heavies pop medics. I've seen too many high tours throw games by sitting in spawn and doing nothing and immediately rejoin after being kicked for doing nothing. I'd argue education is the key and if they made it so that Mann Up was an EARNED gamemode I.E. You have to complete the tour on bootcamp first before playing with the big boys, or having them read a damn guide before playing mann up, it would make the experience a LOT more enjoyable.

[@megadon_]

It's funny when people see my low tour count and immediately believe that I'm going to perform poorly as Scout. What they don't realize is that I've spent a lot of time in F2P MVM so I have a pretty good idea on what I'm doing and what's going on.

[@mendyshelios0451]

Spy is mostly useful for other tours... but he shines in community missions... But its a shame with the stats. Its very fun and interesting role in mvm.

[@starmaker75]

Yeah in 2 cities, spy is probably at his least useful, I always said to make spy better and less nieche is to give him the money health like scout as that not make a somewhat decent alternative/secondary money collector, but give him a lot of survivable

[@woop6727]

@@starmaker75 "spy is least useful in the missions with many giant medics and giant blackbox soldiers" what?

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

valve replace robot sapping with converting robots to your team momentarily pls

[@teedeegremlin]

It's just sad that everything Spy does, other classes do better.

[@electricfan6191]

@@teedeegremlin oh hello undercards guy Didn't expect to see ya here

[@wizardii4961]

I'm glad that you considered not quite getting A+ credits for scout as still a good performance. Thing I hate most in MvM is people throwing a fit over a single credit pile being missed. All of vanilla MvM is doable without getting A+ rating, if people are screwing up without 60 extra credits it's usually a different issue than the missed credits. Most of the missions in 2 Cites give a lot of credits.

[@jimmynorman9897]

Amen, sometimes it’s unavoidable when someone kills in a very obscure spot and doesn’t pick-up the money. Or killing where the money is unreachable.

[@teedeegremlin]

Usually I just joke about missed money and move on, haven't seen Scouts get votekicked over money in a while.

[@wizardii4961]

@@teedeegremlin True. Doesn't happen so often now.

[@Terimator20]

I like to play Scout and I got this once on that really tiny map that only gives you 400 credits at the start (forgot the name). It's also where a whole bunch of heavy bots stampede through in the first round. I have never gotten a good start in that mission lol. Either way, I missed a couple of credits and this dude said "scout your job is to collect money", which I was doing. The only reason I missed some is bcause everyone kept dying, including me. Don't even get me started on those giant scout bots. It was still at A. Now recently I played again as Scout and won an A+ game on an advanced mission. Felt real good.

[@teedeegremlin]

@@Terimator20 Fun quote from a friend of mine: Scout's only as good as the rest of his team. You can't collect money efficiently if your team is performing poorly.

[@friendofp.24]

It seems after Tacobot burned to ashes there was a massive pushback against efficient teamplay in MVM. If you spoke out about someone bringing the whole team down, you're a "toxic tryhard." I'm glad this safe-space mentality is fading away.

[@emperorjustinanthefirstoft6320]

Ohh so that's why it took me 128 minutes to find a mvm match where I didn't get kicked

[@sake5965]

"new players are bad" yeah no shit. People who get entitled about mvm are just not good enough at the game to criticise players in other gamemodes so they just got "good" at the easiest of them all. Mvm is so easy for real , in the 30 tours i played there was not an ounce of challenge.

[@teedeegremlin]

The challenge in MvM is getting decent enough teammates tbh. Community MvM does a much better job at being actually challenging.

[@snowfiemc]

"New players are pretty bad at MVM" That's like getting mad at someone because they said the sky is blue

[@DEWILL]

I know right

[@TheGreatDanish]

Low tours out here tryna pretend like they aint inexperienced lol A lack of Experience directly translates to being worse at the game than people *with* experience. There is no magic sauce that makes new players just as good as someone with a thousand hours in the game. Denying that is like denying the sun rises in the morning.

[@SoldierMan755]

I seriously don't get why people say that the huntsman is good in MvM. Soundsmith and Fatmagic BOTH said it was a stupid joke! A JOKE!! Are people seriously so brainless that they only look at the title of a video, or the gameplay, without listening to what the maker says?

[@Dievi.]

Very informative and well made video DEWILL i did not know new players were worse than greasy mvm veterans glued to their gaming chairs!

[@G.r.e.g.g.l.e.s]

As somebody who greatly enjoys taking over the sniper/heavy's job against giants by using the spy, I'm sad to see no mid and high tours who understand the bot AI and hitbox and were willing to give him a shot for a few waves. He's a great pick for the last 3 waves (requires money) and does HUGE damage. He would be viable if given a cloak regen and money magnet upgrade.

[@cinex20]

Sadly, if you play the same missions over and over again, Demoman becomes too good of a choice to ignore. Community MvM for the win! And Spy's problem is that even if you know how to play him, he's still only good at killing giants and absolute dog water at basically everything else. He lacks versatility.

[@ihazsucks]

@@cinex20 Spy is also good at taking down dangerous commons and is an ok for killing medics. Plus Demo requires a lot of time and money compared to spy

[@oliverthedum2129]

Yeah the your eternal reward is stupid op since the robots are dumb and can’t see through disguises

[@craftyrobandicootproductio1424]

@@oliverthedum2129 worst option; nerfed to be slower in auto disguise

[@oliverthedum2129]

@@craftyrobandicootproductio1424 oh was it I didn’t realise

[@imabird1566]

If you’re going to do this experiment again, maybe try going under a different name with a new account to see if the numbers change at all. But getting that many rounds of MvM with only single digit tour accounts might be easier said than done.

[@worldmen7]

I would say it in most cases depends on whetever new player watches some sort of guides before playing or not like if he tries things himself obviously he will not know anything Also it depends on whetever they tried in playing in community servers or not and i'm preety sure it comunity servers don't count in tours number

[@lordvgames]

i've played a lot of community mvm and barely any tours, so random players are probably gonna be surprised how well I play the next time I do mann up

[@worldmen7]

@@lordvgames yea same as me before playing my first mann up (not long ago tbh) i had a lot of knowledge already from community mvm/YT guides, first mann up they wanted to kick me i ended up preety much carring (by DMG) with demo so yea

[@starmaker75]

Yeah you have a low tour player that was good at mvm for playing the community servers.

[@meowass1455]

I don't like playing with high tours cause its just not fun, I want to feel the tension and overwhelming power of robots like what MvM events give us, when I play with high tours on mann up I can just stand and watch every robot walk few meters before they get destroyed, just not fun or worth the money

[@DEWILL]

Good point. This is rather personal and ambiguous thing, but certainly something shouldn't get ignored.

[@robro2214]

I dont like playing with high tours either, I play a crap ton of boot camp because I like to try weird and wacky strats but whenever I mann up and play meta I just get kicked for not having more than double digit tours or for trying something new, or even worse because I forgot I had the gas equipped for pub meming and getting Screamed at before inevitable kick, It feels like a chore these days to even que for mann up mode these days

[@teedeegremlin]

That's my reason for not playing with cheaters. I play Mann Up for the fun of MvM and the disappointment of my gambling.

[@bbhanakiki]

literally me

[@inactivepleasegoaway]

oh how i've missed getting notifications that you've uploaded at 4:00 am

[@frimnpi7473]

3am 💀 for me

[@harbinger9824]

Idk honestly , I don't eat my tickets since I just like playing with more skilled individuals and help them get their drops while I never get any for myself.

[@Bellbeing]

Dude I WISH I knew how you made and animated these graphs. They are SO good and tickle something in my data obsessed brain in just the right way. Amazing vid :)

[@wolfenoxrekalizerh.4658]

Statistics? Yes, we needed for solid facts. Ussage of it? No we can't control of it. If someone used it to pull down or mock some player, we can't stop them. At the end its up to how the users gonna cook the numbers and use it to prove something in the mvm world. If there's something bad happened because of this, its not the creator, but the user's problem. Man did what he needed to do, that's it. Altho I can still see those kinds of people that's gonna be butthurt about this statictics, cuz they never end. P.S. It was shit lobby cuz Frankfrut for asian. Def not for the clip :troll:

[@Puzzlers100]

The one problem between saying lowtours and new players is that tour counters don't have any representation of Bootcamp.

[@WAtheAnum]

another thing which kinda throws the whole thing out of the window, is the fact how experianced the player really -is-. Only because he has a low tour count on the 2city tour *does not mean* he might played other tours. He *might* is new to this tour but played others so that he might already know how other classes work. this is of course all only "maybe" the case but it still *can* be the case. "exceptions prove the rules".

[@xray8012]

Most Low Tours are the worst not due to them being less skilled, but more of the fact that they are basically summed up like "Fuck You! I play how I want!" Which in a game about Co-op play and Coordination, isnt a good mindset to get into... Plus you can get those people with run in die pyro or airblast maniac pyro which isnt good but isnt the 100% logical way to play pyro. Its just too different.

[@serazikinator]

I don't exactly get the hate by saying that low tour players are worse than high tour players. I'm a low tour, and I'm worse than pretty much every high tour person you come across. It's literally saying that I have less experience, which means I'm worse. Stating the facts shouldn't be viewed as toxic.

[@Iciclefairy]

Dewill be like: “ha ha, I’m such an MVM pro” *gets stuck on the easiest expert difficulty mission in anniversary annihilation for 1-2 hours* lmao.

[@woop6727]

yea and he kinda started the tacobot problem too lol

[@Luigi1000]

Overall good video with some useful info, however I do feel the whole class pick rate stats do neglect to also record an important data point along with them. That being if they willingly selected that class or if they were forced with threats or coerced by the other members to pick that class. That would be an important one to know in relation to people picking classes and would be interesting to stat to see. Also having the overall attitude (calm, informative, cooperative, rushing, aggressive, controlling, etc..) of a low/mid/high tour person as they played would also be a nice one to know.

[@DEWILL]

It’ll be pretty much impossible to quantify that way. Had to stick with the method that is easily quantifiable

[@shawverno.1130]

SUPER well made video! The edits and effort are great :D

[@TheTundraTerror]

"Why the Demoman? There's was a guy playing who was drunk." He was just getting into character!

[@Lenin941FN]

I used to think you were too harsh on new players but now that ive got a few dozen tours under my belt I fully understand the feeling

[@purplebrownizz5557]

acctually, it's not the gas passer *or* the pyro the probleme, it's the players that are picking him. tbh pyro can be terrifyingly good in mvm, but people or don't care about it, or they're just bad at it.

[@carsonferg]

Amazing video! I love the time spent researching and the editing is very good as well. Keep up the good work!

[@D-S-G.]

the weak mvm player gets angry at new players dictates what upgrades and weapons to use and threatens anyone else with violence for not listening doesnt ensure consistent pay and costs money to even finish the tour to begin with the strong job worker doesnt get angry consistent pay actually moves legs

[@rodneybuckentime4838]

"There was a guy who played while he was drunk." That's the ONLY way to play demoman, dammit!

[@aaronwest4277]

I find it hilarious how that demo fucked the stats so bad without even knowing lmfao

[@crunchcisco7819]

what an honor to be featured in a dewill video. im the engie at 6:00 i remember that tour

[@bartdezwart2670]

Video quality is insane! Loved the data visualisation

[@forgottenboy3527]

I really love playing spy in MvM, it's really fun! it can be really hard sometimes with how squishy and vulnerable spy is and all the bullets, rockets and pipe bombs flying around making the mechanic of disguising or cloaking useless but, when a giant appears or you sap a big group of robots and completely go to town with your knife is just soo satisfying! Pair this with a good hit and kill sound to extra enjoyment!

[@caterhamflavouredimitationcrab]

14:20 heavy being popular among low tours, as someone who has only played the free version, hence am a low tour, I initially played heavy because of how simple his gameplay was and how little it changed from standard play, his upgrades are simple and where you position yourself is dictated by good engineer players, he’s a good pick for learning how mvm works in general and his unlocks are the least necessary to function of the simpler characters, and his upgrades are very obvious

[@Arc3752]

For every 1 player that leaves there are 5 that will kick low tour players for crappy loadouts/class picks early in the game. So if the kicked pyros, spys, snipers and melee demos counted towards "bad players" the numbers would be very different.

[@ZaTrapu]

That performance for low tier demoman players was very surprising

[@RATEATER-q6r]

i used to speedrun the pineapple MVM operations, and i had like 15 2nd places and 2 world records, but never played mann up, and it took more time to get a server with people who dont instaleave when they see me with 0 tours than the actual mvm game itself

[@june9914]

With scout I think the high amount of good is not just people usually locking in the class, but also that his skill floor is much much lower if you focus purely on utility, which is often what new scouts are told Soldier demo and sniper are basically comprised of people who are good at the class in casual and want two use a class they’re comfy with, even if they don’t understand the class role quite yet Engi heavy and medic are just players who are doing what’s needed and poor prefourmance usually comes down two overconfidence and overextending Pyro prefourmance comes down two a combo of all of the above, despite seeming like a beginner friendly class

[@denzy_lolol]

I personally never play MvM much but each tour (3 so far, along with about 200 hours in MvM total) I've played have always had good players and we only had to kick 2 people #1 was an actual tacobot member who wasn't pissed at how we played, he was just idle all match. #2 was a airblast troll. I main heavy in TF2 and MvM so I just play casually and have fun, although I'll swap when needed.

[@VulpineSyndicate]

I know a tour resetter, it is all gambling superstition. Thinks he gets better odds of australiums by doing so.

[@leonel392]

Man, I'm a f2p, newbie, literally started playing on October of 2022, yet when I learned what you can do with Scout and the Soda Popper and the Phlog Pyro I instantly loves dominating the robots in Boot Camp, haven't played Mann Up that much though

[@Mystic-Midnight]

Honestly I have had games with super high tours with someone who is doing their first Mann Up tour and the high tour was just trying to votekick the dude and I just helped show him the meta engi spots and the high tour was obviously annoyed we let him stay cause he'd try and kick him any time the dude made a mistake like getting sentry busted or getting overwhelmed but the dude had to learn.

[@j.a.m.m]

I mean, ultimately, no one can blame that drunk high-your Demo for staying in-character lol. But yeah, that was a really interesting video, using stats and graphs is always amazing. And yeah, it makes sense, people with less experience are bound to perform worse than people with a lot of experience, who have played MvM for a while, etc. Plus, helping low-tours make sense or they won't become high-tour themselves Also, I know it's a bit unrelated, but between tacobot, cheaters, and all, it doesn't really make me want to try MvM, I'll be honest

[@teedeegremlin]

You can try Boot Camp if you don't wanna waste money, but it's fair if you don't want to try MvM.

[@pinguyay7962]

I feel like saying to a pyro not to use the gas passer is like saying to a sniper not to use explosive headshot.

[@poidythewizard4509]

No because the pyro already had a good weapon that deals damage, the flamethrower.

[@pinguyay7962]

@@poidythewizard4509 but its saying no to whats a good weapon with high damage

[@lordpumpkinhead265]

@@poidythewizard4509 Pyro's Gas Passer shreds everything on MvM and makes tours a lot faster, why do you discourage the use of it?

[@poidythewizard4509]

@@lordpumpkinhead265 first of all, i don't discourage at all the use of gas, besides that i do agree that it's unbalanced bc of the little money you need to upgrade it, and also it wasn't necessary to give hime a weapon that "shreds everything" when he already had a good primary weapon. Still most pyros don't know how to play pyro and perform poorly on game, even with gas passer. But they think they are doing good only bc of throwing the can and they own that bad habit.

[@lordpumpkinhead265]

@@poidythewizard4509 Pyro had the Backburner and the Phlog for MvM, and outside of that he didn't have any secondaries. MAYBE the Detonator or the Scorch Shot, but nothing major.

[@ralphthejedimaster]

pyro may start out weak but he has absolutely insane potential in mid to late game between the phlog, taunt cancels, and using the gas only increases that even further. pyro can fulfill every role except engineer all alone at that point. using phlog gas pyro is by far the easiest way to end the mission with higher damage than the heavy, and i've even managed to do with it the detonator since the jumps make taunt cancelling easier. it's an absurdly powerful class at max potential

[@mendyshelios0451]

sounds like utopia.... because i only met ONE persone with this potential (and he wasnt using passer) So.... No.

[@ralphthejedimaster]

@@mendyshelios0451 the vast majority are pretty bad yes, but if a high tour or even some mid tour picks pyro the chances aren't low that they'll top the scoreboard by the end

[@ihazsucks]

pyro is really good early game since he is the cheapest class to upgrade but he requires a lot of skill to utilize the most of him

[@ralphthejedimaster]

@@ihazsucks ehhhh, early game pyro is rough becuase you don't have money for resistances yet and you can't output damage for shit at longer range, it's doable if you're very careful but otherwise you'll just be adding to the pyro who dies 10 times per wave stereotype

[@ihazsucks]

@@ralphthejedimaster don't rely on resistances and get movement speed or jump height instead, extra mobility is crucial for pyro since he relies on close range damage and he is very squishy

[@42dusk45]

I as a low tour player find myself playing MVM as the missing part of the team. Everyone has already picked a class by the time i connect so if we don't have an engineer, scout, or anything else that I know how to play competently I fill in that hole. I do find that most games i play people hardly switch classes except for the scout on the final wave.

[@Nah9746]

thats exacly how my games look like lmao

[@Sacle]

i dont usually play MvM too much, only when i want to so before i play i always watch 3 or 4 videos about MvM to know what is my role

[@mada-ryu]

This was very interesting, thank you so much for the effort

[@Boomergenerico123]

I have 7 tour despite starting playing when jungle inferno drops out. But i mostly understand the role for each mercenary. The last time i play mvm i remember i was playing soldier i was doing pretty good, then in the wave 4 someone told me to change to heavy for some reason but i say that i don't play quite well heavy, which is true, then this person said "how don't you know how to hold m1?" Then before i could say something else i was in the menu. Anyways good video, i understand it not much but it was entertaining.

[@bottleoftide4657]

I can tell you right now, plenty of low tours either didn't have confidence to try sniper, or felt intimidated because of, yknow, they who shall not be named. I have over a thousand hours in the game outside of MvM, and maybe just close to 10 tours, I'm still scared to pick sniper despite my decency with the class.

[@Terimator20]

I can't aim for shit with Sniper lol. Can never reliably get headshots with it so it's one of my lowest played class. MvM is an absolute no for me.

[@soupcan]

recognized the pvz sunshroom growing sfx instantly and had to mention it immediately

[@R4ND0MCR4P123R4ND0MN3SS]

My problem with the Gas Passer is that you don't learn anything from using it. There's no skill to gain from it. Because of that, Pyro players have to try less, therefore, they never get better and will always remain bad at the class overall. Just how I view it.

[@friendofp.24]

I once played with a Pyro who never focused the tank because he would die, and blamed it all on us. We lost many times but eventually pushed through to the end and right before the final wave started I learned that this Pyro didn't know what resistances were and never bought them (this is after Valve removed the ability to look at other's upgrades). They are literally the first upgrades you see when you go to the upgrade station. That's why experienced players "boss" people around, because you get entitled oblivious noobs who blame everything on everyone else. That game made me understand the toxic MVM player mentality.

[@AChristianGamer19]

Just fully upgrade Spy’s movement, and without a doubt, you have an arguably better Scout. Especially with Deadringer and Kunia to make you nearly unkillable in most situations. Plus Robots can’t tell disguises.

[@msgameandcake628]

When it comes to not many people picking Sniper, a factor that may come into play is that you were frequently playing Sniper. I feel like common knowledge within the community is that having multiple Snipers is typically not a very good idea, so if someone came in and saw that the class already had representation, they might have felt more obligated to choose something else instead, even if he might have been their first choice.

[@janb.3600]

I am concerned that your point scoring system might be subjective. How would you rate a Scout who ends the mission with highest damage and consistantly miked giants, but the team got an overall credit rating of "B"?

[@FlakkerDPS]

Loved the study on the gas passer stereotype. At the end of the day, the question goes from "are all gas pyros dumb?" To "are all gas pyros using the gas as a crutch?" The answer to that is a quick yes.

[@x-biaur1995]

I'm surprised a video like this had to be made. Performance being directly correlated to experience is so obvious, and it shouldn't be a controversial observation. However, I think there is one aspect that should be explored more: attitude. Is a low tour willing to listen to criticism of their gameplay and adjust accordingly? Does the high tour explain said criticisms politely and not freak out in response to a sub-optimal play? I think this could be an interesting way to look at MVM, especially with the mode's toxic reputations.

[@jayuh9328]

Bro spent hundreds of hours and made a 30 minute video to say "new players are bad,experienced players are good"

[@Dievi.]

Who knew!

[@Khamsin-]

Man you should see how bad the average low tours are on expert. We get pyros on wave 1 manslaughter that die 15 times

[@Khamsin-]

And refuse to do anything that we ask them to anyway, because "uhhh uhh i main pyrooo!!!!"

[@theshermantanker7043]

One potential flaw this has is discounting people with massive amounts of boot camp experience but no money to buy tickets for the tours

[@Portal2Player]

I'm a guy with 50 MVM tours who plays pretty frequently, and I always ask in the lobby what people consider a "High Tour" And I've gotten answers as high as 200 and as low as 80.

[@teedeegremlin]

Damn, guess I'm a sweaty-ass high tour then. Personally I'd consider "high tour" as over at least 100 tours, but I dunno when the high tours start becoming toxic exactly.

[@Portal2Player]

@@teedeegremlin how many tours do you have then? I guess a "mid-tour" is sort of like 10-99

[@teedeegremlin]

@@Portal2Player 87 on Two Cities

[@Portal2Player]

@@teedeegremlin i got 54 on tc and over 10 on mecha and advanced

[@teedeegremlin]

@@Portal2Player I've got a few tours on Mecha Engine and Gear Grinder, too.

[@Tackyfication]

I just started mvm yesterday, I watched guides, and various youtubers (including you) and how they played the game mode. I turned out to be a various decent player.

[@coolowenfilms9991]

you could always do a spearmans rank coefficient test to work out whether the mid game leaving count was significant

[@FlarfFlarfFlarf]

Funny seeing Venusian at the beginning of the video lmao, he really did never change

[@RandomFurry07]

he should be in jail by now

[@LegethDrn]

As a low tier myself, I agree. I also meme even on two cities cause its fun for me. *laughs in pompson*

[@Nah9746]

i respect that

[@teedeegremlin]

The fact that you can even manage to meme without getting kicked is surprising, unless you played with friends. Well, what matters is you're having fun.

[@eelminthonthefourth3795]

My favorite mvm tour moment was when I played as a scout in mann up, I was part of an elite group and I was the designated scout for the team somehow I managed to outdamage the heavy wall meta.

[@maxcook356]

As a low tour, I have to say, I fall under a couple of these categories, but I atleast TRY.

[@araylaurence6220]

really well researched video, good job

[@somedude4087]

the stretch soundeffect got quite the milage in this vid

[@cosmicvoidtree]

The thing you said at the end about yourself being involve gave me an idea. I feel like we should make a project where we collect a lot more data, from other people to remove the one person constant. That would involve the issue of ratings, as different people rate someone differently