The Dumbest Weapon in TF2

More like the Dumber-back. Or uhhh Razor-Dumb? I don't know. Someone think of something more clever for me.
SquibJib's Channel: / squibjibconcarne
DISCORD: / discord
PATREON: / afterbreakfast
TWITTER: / _afterbreakfast
STEAM GROUP: steamcommunity.com/groups/afte...
DA: after-breakfast.deviantart.com/

[@SquimJim]

I already see some people bringing up the Sapper as an example of a weapon designed only to counter 1 class- So let me stop you RIGHT THERE! Yes, it is. Maybe in a perfect world the Sapper would have other uses but it's absolutely not in the same camp as the Razorback, Danger Shield, or Spy-cicle. The Sapper is just an extra tool Spy has by default. He isn't giving up anything to use it. He isn't made worse if the enemy team has no Engineers. And it doesn't allow him to counter one of his counters (at least not really). The entire Spy-Engineer dynamic from the get go has been built around Spy being a threat to Engineer and his buildings. And the Sapper is a big part of what allows him to be a threat to Engineers. The Sniper-Spy dynamic ISN'T built around Sniper not being able to be backstabbed.

[@Gencrossbones]

Oh add this to the potential fix for the razorback Reduce damage from behind and all melee weapons hitting the razorback will do the same thing as a blocked melee weapon making sniper retreating from an enemy at close range much much more easier and riskier for more deadly melee base sub class like demoknight and trolldier.

[@SpktraSK]

Main difference is this: An engineer nest is probably the most important part of the defense. so it needs a specific counter. A spy backstab is NOT the most important part of the offense, so it having a class specific counter is stupid

[@davedvd3030]

"i will outright to refuse to use" (u have the razorback equiped?) 1:49

[@gbird4201]

I

[@mauroghen9157]

Essentially its more of a case of what if engineer had a tool to prevent sapping entirely rather than why spy can backstab a sniper or sap a sentry

[@Atroxian626]

"The Second the enemy team stops having a spy the weapon becomes useless." This has never happened ever.

[@arenmee540]

correction, this happened once: *myg0t has joined the server*

[@Zilly.]

@@arenmee540 infZ joined the server

[@redstonewarrior0152]

Well. The razor back can still be useless even with spies on the other team. Just because there is a game with snipers and spies doesn't mean their paths will ever meet. The enemy spy might not be able to even find the sniper and their back or the spy might not even be skilled enough to get anywhere close to the sniper. Also, sniper sometimes is always dead thanks to the enemy team's sniper.

[@LucanVaris]

"This has never happened ever." ...You ever hear of the concept of "Sixes," son?

[@theotv5522]

@@LucanVaris in 6s you counter sniper with another sniper to be fair. You either play spy at the begining or you don't.

[@puskajussi37]

To be fair, from time to time I intentionally stab razorbacks. Supprisingly often the enemy doesn't even notice, making the following actual stab quite bit funnier.

[@ytk2508]

Isn’t their an achievement for that?

[@egg_crate]

@@ytk2508yeah it’s called die another way I believe

[@Smona]

2Fort snipers tend to do that more than others

[@thismighthurtepicly125]

​@@egg_crateI remember when I got that achievement I was brand new in tf2 and didnt know what a razorback was i thought it was a bug lmao but I still ended up killing the sniper with the help of my teammates pushing

[@BigBadWolfdog]

Stab, coak, stab. They have no Jarate, so it’s comically easy.

[@gaidencastro9706]

The wrangler practically needs a competent spy to take down. That's less than 30% of the playerbase.

[@nightowl6055]

Less than 3%*

[@gahlicc]

theres also the enforcer

[@RedPandaReal]

Enforcer I pulled out of my ass:

[@LocalNoob_2]

bro said less than 30% more like less than 2%

[@godricktheminecrafted3113]

Or any spy that can cloak and then suicide sap

[@denialz1460]

the razorback was given to the sniper and not any other class because he's the only one whose whole playstyle is based off of him minimizing his field of vision

[@SquimJim]

Does that make it well designed or well balanced though? Sniper has that drawback for a reason. Heavy's whole playstyle is built around him being tanky and having high health. But he has the drawback of being slow and vulnerable to the insta kill classes. The Razorback is like the equivalent of giving Heavy a passive secondary to block headshots. It would have the exact same fundamental design problems.

[@erwannthietart3602]

@XXV you guys already "Soft" counter Spy, dont need even MORE

[@kekopara6822]

@@SquimJim the heavy also has a weapon that denies his slowness, which is the gloves of running urgently, but go on..

[@dansmith6300]

@@kekopara6822 which comes at the cost of his health, and therefore his survivability, and this downside is maintained for a period of time after the weapon is switched off of. Your point?

[@SquimJim]

@@kekopara6822 Does Heavy have a passive secondary that makes him faster for the only drawback of losing his secondary? No. The steak has the melee restriction and the GRU lower your health. And even if he did, making Heavy faster does not only affect 1 class. The Razorback exists purely to screw over Spy and nothing else. Which is why I gave the example of a secondary to make Heavy immune to headshots. It would have the exact same fundamental flaws and no one would reasonably claim that would be good for the game.

[@goober_uno]

"It's the only weapon in tf2 that I will outright refuse to use" Jim's strange scarcely lethal razorback: Am I a joke to you?

[@evangonzalez7732]

Scarcely lethal? I- wha- hu- how?

[@waterbottle195]

@@evangonzalez7732 kil

[@owenblount7334]

Mvm?

[@hakanbrakankrakan]

@@evangonzalez7732 strange grade, means it has been used

[@evangonzalez7732]

@@hakanbrakankrakan ok. How can a BACKPACK. Be SCARCELY LETHAL?

[@compatriot852]

The razorback definitely is a weapon that needs a rework. It should have honestly been fixed when the Darwin's danger shield was

[@che595]

You have a gun

[@FenexDragonis]

@@che595 yep but gun kills only give 1 point .. backstabs are worth 2. And all that matters is getting big score, so they can use it as justification of contributing when they lose.. Its just people crying about getting counter played.. who don't understand the concept of counter play thus it's unfair, because expecting them to learn and grow is asking to much.. I mean they pretend the ambassador was not released in the same update, and exists solely so level the playing field against snipers using the razorback back. They don't loom at the big picture, just tunnel vision on the one item. Without considering interactions with other items.

[@hotboot2382]

Ltu?

[@daviddoesstuffandthingigue966]

@@FenexDragonis sniper mains when I call the class that 1 shots you from spawn overpowered

[@yspear_]

@@FenexDragonis sniper main be like

[@thedog5k]

Giving sniper immunity to backstabs would be like giving a class immunity to his headshots Oh wait…

[@SquimJim]

They tried once. And it was given to Sniper too...

[@RandomFurry07]

The old Danger Shield... Wow

[@Dovah_Slayer]

I don't see your point? So what sniper counters spy who cares (other than spy mains stay mad you ambi worshipping deadringer kunai using assholes)

[@SiMoonSte]

@@RandomFurry07 what about the battalions backup (I don’t know if I wrote that right

[@RandomFurry07]

@@SiMoonSte hey at least it takes time, ammo, and health to build that immunity

[@XshortysX]

Make it so when you get backstabbed, you're locked into using your melee weapon for a short duration so you have to duel the spy essentially. It'd give more of a reason for the spy to yell "Lets settle this like gentlemen!"

[@g2ltt733]

Not really, most sniper who got stabbed would probably switch to melee to kill the spy anyway

[@davidpico1579]

@@g2ltt733 and crit

[@Johannesburgus]

You can actually get backstabbed with the razorback and not realize it if you are super concentrated on your sniping. But if you get locked in melee out of nowhere, that will be a braindead indicator that a Spy is behind you

[@chrisjones9132]

You stab the sniper, he turns around and runs blindly at you, you trickstab him. That's typically how it goes. When stabbing crowds, stab the sniper last, unless your keeping a soldier alive for a sick surf.

[@ivrydice0954]

@@g2ltt733 Melee kills Spy in 2 hits (sometimes). Quickscope does it in a single hit. Risk reward ratio makes it a worthy choice if you got the skill.

[@maskofthedragon]

Sniper is the most dangerous class in the game yet it seems like his unlocks were balanced around the common 2fort Snipers that take a minute to line up a shot only to miss anyway

[@theotv5522]

And yet this community when discussing about weapon balance often overlook how broken a weapon can be in the hands of a pro. So they make up these ridiculous weapons that just offer insane upsides while having minimal/irrelavant downsides. Valve surely don't know how to balance a lot of shit but I'm still glad they will never let the community jinx with weapon stats.

[@bobbyferg9173]

While the old Danger Shield had a broader use than its current version, I still would say that the old version's anti-Sniper potential had a greater presence than the current version's anti pyro potential. I mean all the danger shield is doing is removing a minor annoyance vs. a major advantage in Sniper duels. But the thing the old Danger Shield and Razorback have in common is how they let Snipers play in a more careless style because they don't have to worry about being countered. While not meant to counter any specific class, the old Ambassador/Deadringer/Kunai Spy was a combo that revolved specifically around not being punished for reckless behavior and thus being able to play in a way that a Spy normally cannot play. Really any weapon that makes a class strong when they are otherwise weak can be problematic and often will have trouble being properly balanced

[@puddin555]

funnily enough DDS is still meta in hl

[@stickyrice.j]

God, don’t get me started with the old Darwin’s. I hate that I had to damage the Sniper prior to a Sniper duel because if I don’t, I’m basically headshot food, even if I hit the headshot first. It’s especially annoying against good Snipers. While I feel the Razorback fulfills this role for Spies, I feel it isn’t as bad as the old (or new) Darwin’s, since any of the Spy’s guns, especially the Revolver and Ambassador, can easily take care of a Sniper. Sniper can’t really defend himself too well in close quarters, even more so without a reliable secondary. However, I do agree that certain situations make shooting a Sniper dangerous or impossible, but at least there’s some counterplay. Overall, the Razorback needs a rework, since its purpose is too niche and promotes a “set and forget it” mentality against Spies.

[@glad16252]

I personally wish the DDS still had its anti-sniper purpose. Though instead of just straight up reducing bullet damage it should instead reduce all non-headshot bullet damage. Simply put, if it's a full charge body shot, it'll deal whatever a quick scope head shot used to do before, leaving you at I think 3 hp. Meanwhile a quick scope headshot should just kill you. Personally I think it's a lot better than the current anti-Scorch Shot DDS, because that's all it's good for, and it's definitely a nerf compared to pre Jungle Inferno

[@leviathanthetallone8299]

The Danger sheild is great for huntsmans

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

darwins rework: +25 maximum health literally all it should be

[@LilMcMoffett]

5:09 SCENT TREE DOWN!

[@SylvanSerenity]

6:50 As someone who plays a lot of spy, I actually find it more frequent than not that a sniper is alone and able to be taken out with a revolver. Unless they’re using the huntsman, it’s usually beneficial to stay far away from the front lines to avoid the other 8 classes, which is where I think the appeal of the razorback comes from, since spies like picking people off who are alone. With them being alone so much though, if you get up close to them while they’re scoped in, it’s very easy to just surprise them and deal more damage than they can unless they’re good enough to get a quick headshot at point-blank range. Really just a useless weapon.

[@hussar7733]

I play a lot of spy aswell and if I had to count all the times I was screwd over by sniper that I had to ingore who would always stand just behind his team watching their back I'd look like I'm in mrbeasts video

[@user-zn5ve7pr1j]

Darwins shield and Razorback is like if Valve gave a multi-class Helmet weapon that blocks headshots.

[@kubaGR8]

More like if there was a headshot-blocking helmet for the Heavy only. Except if it was a secondary it'd replace the Sandvich so it still might not see much use.

[@danksmemington362]

I thought we were making arguments against the razorback here

[@badideagenerator2315]

Darwin's Danger Bucket

[@whirl3690]

Razorback is like if that were given to Heavy, Darwin's is like if it were given to Engineer.

[@thebaron9405]

If it was a pirmary slot weapon, trading your main weapon for it would probably balance it

[@pinkiepyro5964]

another example of how ridiculous the razor back is: what if they made a secondary for engineer, that makes his buildings immune to sappers, while still alerting the engineer to presence of the spy?

[@Qualicabyss]

How about giving spy a gun that gives him immunity to fire based weapons?

[@badopinionssquid1735]

​@@Qualicabyss Spycicle Not a gun but

[@Qualicabyss]

@@badopinionssquid1735 I mean complete passive immunity, not you can maybe escape once

[@badopinionssquid1735]

@@Qualicabyss 30 seconds is a long time to recharge And you could argue they can just run back to spawn But that accomplishes the same effect as outright killing them so

[@-RandomStranger-]

​@@badopinionssquid1735 well it's pretty balanced and some people even say it's underpowered because 1 flame particle completely deletes it

[@ministerofpropagandaindoct4966]

The Razorback is probably a perfect example of a crutch in TF2

[@itsraventm]

The real flaw of having that resistance from behind mechanic is the sloppy hit registration. The frustration of facestabs is bad enough, and having that chance against a pub stomping sniper would be a nightmare. In a perfect world with perfect hit registration it would be a very neat mechanic, but tf2 is far from perfect in that regard.

[@Appletank8]

Does the Razorback not trigger upon facestabs?

[@ipressedon9289]

what registers as 'the back' in of itself is rather iffy. We're all familiar with the facestab and the nearly 180 degree range a backstab can trigger, but then you have weapons like the backburner or back scatter that seem to only deal the bonus damage if you hit your target at a straight 90 degree angle.

[@theotv5522]

Fighting snipers in general is already a stupid concept. Because he is a class specialises in long-range combat where everyone else is balanced around mid-close range. In theory that alone is broken enough. A good sniper shreds the other team much more than an equally skilled soldier or heavy.

[@chrisjones9132]

90% of the time it's a trickstab, not a facestab. Facestabs are not that common.

[@thelastant8366]

@@theotv5522 this is why sniper is a bitch to fight

[@llmkursk8254]

I actually like the idea of reducing backstabs to 75 damage, and breaking when enough damage is taken. Makes it more interactive in all situations.

[@rbstat6946]

Personally I still think a razorback that blocked lethal damage would be fine. Even if it was for all classes (y'know for fairness) All you have to do is give it the proper downsides for such a powerful ability. My personal rework concept would be to block lethal damage on all classes. But you are always left with 1-hp, have a short speed boost and invulnerability, (basically bonk effect) and you aren't allowed to attack until the invulnerability wears off. Then maybe just lessen the effect of not only overheal, but healing in general. Similar to the back scratcher and I'd call it done. With this version, yeah you could survive lethal damage. But you'd then have to run into the arms of your teammates, cause otherwise you'd just get tracked down and killed anyways. And while it would be harder to kill you, your enemies can still get you off the frontlines for awhile which is at least a bittersweet victory. Thusly, the sniper would probably want to stay closer to his team than some other snipers. Which means that now the sniper himself has to play around the razorback too, instead of just spies.

[@danksmemington362]

@@rbstat6946 That invuln sounds annoying as fuck

[@luckyducky7819]

I do not like the idea of any fix being "The spy can just stab the sniper anyway". That seems like a silly idea for a weapon since you could just give him a defense boost for all the difference it makes.

[@rbstat6946]

@@luckyducky7819 The whole point of the backstab (as mentioned in the video) is to pierce high health classes and resistances. The only weapon other than the razorback that can prevent backstabs is a stock ubercharge. And that needs at least a minute to build up. If the razorback is just a passive thing you don't have to build up. Then you better believe that a balanced version of it would be basically useless against a backstab.

[@luckyducky7819]

​@@rbstat6946 All of the reasons to be against it comes down to individual opinions. Is the razorback bad because you don't use it like a traditional weapon? Maybe, but what if we compromised by making it a melee weapon? You can smack people with the razorback for good damage and range, but it'd be slower and a bit weaker than the stock kukri. The bonus is that, if its not equipped, it has the traditional razorback perks but will break when stabbed. I don't know if its a good idea, but I'd love to see it tried.

[@DrBrightsite19]

i was playing sniper last week with the razorback on because i forgot about it, and a spy backstabbed me (likely on accident) and just stared at me like "I am sorry, I have messed up, I deserve this"

[@micahzeringue984]

I love how you made the point against the "just shoot him" claim people make for the razor back. As well as sentrys making this claim wrong snipers who are really good will be looking around and headshot you two seconds after they see you.

[@l.a.wright6912]

Yeah sadly just shoot him doesn't work when they intentionally break the one weapon meant to do just that.

[@igetboredproductions]

That's sort of the issue with Sniper in general. Good Snipers are completely impossible to kill and can shut down an entire map. It doesn't matter how much you sporadically spazz around as Scout. That Sniper will get you if you are in his sightlines. If you come around the corner as medic he will instantly delete you with a quick scope. People like to say the Sydney Sleeper sucks but it really doesn't. When fully charged it does 150 damage on body shot just like any rifle. Pair that with the fast charge and you have yourself a spammable Medic killer that requires absolutely no skill whatsoever to use. They never should have added Sniper to TF2. He does not belong. Everything else about the game is too fundamentally built around close combat with things like limited weapon reach and damage falloff. The damage is done now though and sadly removing classes is out of the question, as much as I honestly would not complain. All we can do is hope Valve gets off their asses and does that Heavy update like they said they would after Jungle Inferno. I hear it was supposed to come with Sniper nerfs.

[@vyor8837]

@@igetboredproductions No sniper on earth is that good without hacks.

[@CreeperthanPasta]

@@vyor8837 we must have completely different tf2 experiences. I often face against a sniper (or snipers) who will shut the entire server down. even if the sniper is cheating, its unlikely that they will be kicked if its subtle enough.

[@vyor8837]

@@CreeperthanPasta cheaters usually get kicked pretty fast in my experience.

[@youtubeuniversity3638]

Sniper is a class that innately is built on, basically, interacting with enemies at a range they cannot interact back. Makes sense to make them VERY weak to being interacted with to compensate.

[@FoulUnderworldCreature]

I hate the Darwin Danger Shield and Jarate for this reason. Ok, I'm playing Pyro, I'm bad at long range. But then when I finally manage to get in close range of the sniper I can't even damage him cuz of the dumb shield. Or worse, he can put out my afterburn and instantly kill me with the Bushwacka. :(

[@biggierocc1935]

@@FoulUnderworldCreature S H O T G U N

[@bIuecap]

Nah they aren’t weak up close. The melee crits 90% of the time

[@bIuecap]

@@FoulUnderworldCreature stop playing pyro. Pla

[@igetboredproductions]

@@FoulUnderworldCreature If a Pyro manages to set a Sniper on fire he deserves to burn. Simple as that. Giving Sniper an advantage against a class that he already has a tremendous advantage against is just plain stupid. It's just a crutch now for lemmings who don't know how to dodge flares.

[@succubastard1019]

"You don't really use it as a weapon" I think that's meant to be the design philosophy: you gain a get-out-of-jail free card in case you're backstabbed (or at least discourages spies from doing so) but in turn you lose/reduce your own ability to defend yourself against other close-range attackers due to the lack of a secondary weapon like the SMG and the Jarate; you can be more focused on your targets ahead of you and with more confidence, but if you actually let those get close, or lose you guard to a spy with a gun, you'll have more trouble getting out of that situation (this is before Valve realized that people would become so good at sniper that they could just quick-scope anyone out of existence if they accumulated enough skills and experience). The Ali-Baba's Wee Booties have the exact same deal, literally sacrificing a weapon to gain a buff, which prior to its semi-nerf a lot of people would use it alongside the sticky-bomber to get a bulkier and faster sticky spammer. The ultimate difference between the Booties and the Razorback is that, other than changing the user's playstyle more heavily, the Booties push the demo to play more aggressively, and the Razorback just makes the sniper more passive and tunnel focused.

[@SquimJim]

Passive weapons with passive effects are totally fine. The Booties, for example do change how Demo plays a lot. The Razorback doesn't though.

[@trollar8810]

.... Get-out-of-jail free cards are not exactly good game design a lot of the time, unless the game is intended to be played with them from the start

[@katokianimation]

@@trollar8810 thats the game design of the schoolyard. Kid 1: my attack is unavoidable Kid 2: yeah, but my shield reflects back the attack and mess you up Kid 3: that is cheatin Kid 4: the attack is cheating *all the loud kids voice turns into one big mess of a noise

[@bruschetta7711]

@@SquimJim he said it makes the sniper more passive and tunnel focused, which is technically a change of playstyle, not as fundemental because unlike Demo, Sniper relies almost only on his primary, but still a change, you could play just like always only if you never used jarate or the SMG in the first place, in reality it can happen to use jarate to to help your team or to use SMG to deal damage if your confident with your sniper aim at close range I'm not a Razorback fan, but i definetly can understand its utility and existance, it's for people that don't want to focus on spies, they don't want to out scope just because they worry a spy is right behind them, and so they as far as to sacrifice their secondary slot Still your change is a solution which doesn't complete change the weapon and i like it, because all razorback snipers want is to not die istantly from behind right when they are zoomed in

[@SquimJim]

@@bruschetta7711 I dont think people just not wanting to have to worry about Spies is a good justification for it existing as is. No one wants to be backstabbed. And like I said Sniper is the absolute last class that should ever have class counter counters because of the relatively limited way Snipers can be fought. It's just an inherently bad design. Its like giving Heavy something that prevents headshots. Yeah it would help him deal with one of his counters but why should he have that?

[@Marslow_SFR]

imagine protecting your team from spys by going in the middle of them and when a spy tryes to backstab one, he backstabs the razorback

[@knines6279]

10:34 I, a pyro main, am doubly insulted by the danger shield because 1: it greatly weakens my class for free, and 2: CROCODILES ARE MY FAVORITE ANIMAL AND THE SNIPER IS WEARING IT LIKE A CAPE.

[@pufferfish9166]

2 instakill classes of the game require different things. Spy: luck, picking the target, being sneaky. Sniper:having a mouse

[@bigblue344]

Don't forget having a certain type of internet connection.

[@skeletonking2501]

Also AIM

[@extrathings3981]

@@skeletonking2501 you'd be surprised how redundant this factor is, like the guy above said, a faulty internet, paired with TF2's faulty optimization and lag settings, headshots aint hard to get.

[@Eye_Of_Odin978]

@samsalaz You can always tell who's a salty Sniper main that gets a$$mad when someone points out that game design and balance are crucial, because they start raging. Cope harder lmao I 100% have better aim than you. You can main Sniper all you want, but all that means to me is "i CanT gEt kIlLs UnLesS I cAmP gIaNt SiGhtLiNeS aNd JusT kEeP mY cUrSOr aT hEaD-lEvEl" and 98% of the time, I'm right. God Sniper mains are so trash lmao, that's why you all install bots and aim scripts haha.

[@bitbreaker_creator]

@@skeletonking2501 nah just click on people

[@elithris]

King&Trix's razorback is really nice, basically replaces the "no backstab" with "If you die you splash jarate everywhere" Basically, sniper pisses himself on death and soaks any nearby players Also gives extra speed and max primary ammo if you have a bow, but that's not as important

[@Dovah_Slayer]

Then it's not... a shield on your back what the fuck is the point of it?

[@CoolProveIt]

"Weapons designed to counter one class should not be available" You're right, we need more jarate's to counter *every* class.

[@SquimJim]

I mean Jarate has its own separate problems. They're comparable in the basic sense that they're both secondaries for the same class but beyond that they're totally different. And even then I'd still always take an overpowered weapon with easily adjusted stats over a conceptually flawed mess like the Razorback.

[@purplehaze2358]

I would say this thing would be better if it also protected from things like the back burner and backscatter, but then I realized that’s basically saying “It now screws over more classes for putting themselves at a pretty decent risk by getting behind a sniper to begin with!”.

[@daniels5634]

No way, real Dr Bright?

[@carlosbustos8096]

Lets say it aint gonna do a lot against my force a nature with crit a cola

[@Thomas-vn6cr]

With the amount of couterplay that heavy has, he is absolutely the class deserving of their own razorback more than any other.

[@doctorhealsgood5456]

The fists of steel exist and the brass beast gave you damage resistance when revved up... Until they decided that for whatever reason it should only apply when

[@owenblount7334]

You can’t butter knife a heavy to death a sniper on the other hand it’s possible

[@danialrafid]

Heavy isn't a very counter-able class. He has an item for every counter which counters the counter.

[@Spazticspinner]

@@doctorhealsgood5456 nah, let him be like the Sniper. Let heavy by immune to headshots while still using his main weapon. It's only fair.

[@SpartanChief2277]

he has the dragon minigun to counter spies

[@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149]

I've always liked the idea of it giving damage resistance from behind. It'd be a sort of interesting defensive/retreat tool. - We already have code to check for where a player's back is, used for backstabs, so it shouldn't be all too hard for add. - It has use against all classes as a retreat tool, letting you reposition or run for cover with increased survivability. - It's got high interactivity, as skilled snipers could spin around and position themselves against sources of incoming damage in more direct fights (extra synergistic for bow snipers). I'm no game designer, but I think it could be fun. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

[@zo0ot404]

The check for being able to backstab uses the collision hull rather than the hitbox that’s used for hitscan. It would likely require splitting all the classes hitboxes in two or they could use a check for what face the hitscan ray went through. Wouldn’t be as simple as reusing code.

[@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149]

​@@zo0ot404 That's true, I didn't consider that. Well either way, aside from the fact that TF2 is made out of spaghetti code that's hard to work with, it shouldn't be _all too hard_ to add. Maybe. Hopefully.

[@runius0]

"the bot shield" perfect for bots to reduce all incoming damage

[@xxspicytacoxx1861]

@@runius0 dear god

[@onurhanguclu3333]

Not the spy but it can use back scatter thing

[@PoutyBun]

I'm not sure if its been mentioned, but being unable to be overhealed puts you at a disadvantage. You cave in to spam a lot easier, and will be at more of a disadvantage in sniper v sniper fights if your medic knows to top off snipers before heading out

[@thismighthurtepicly125]

yeah but snipers are not at the front lines where the other 8 classes hes meant to avoid getting too close to are, yeah sniper v sniper fights give you a disadvantage if the other is overhealed but a sniper v sniper duel mostly based on skill hes over heal clocks in at 185 but that number is decreasing by the second most of the time you'll stay scoped in long enough to kill them in one headshot anyway the razorback handicaps the spy hes not even that good of a counter his class is literally Made to counter sniper and IF hes using the ambassador it also handicaps his revolver dps other then his headshots the razor back is made to screw over the other class made to counter him which makes it unfair for the spy

[@Hakuminari]

I really like the idea of the razorback making backstabs deal a significant and static amount of HP, something like 100hp, and maybe it not shocking the spy if it would result in a kill. It wouldn't even need any other stats aside from what it has now and I'd think it'd be pretty balanced.

[@NotMirrors]

Kunai spies will never recover from this. Good.

[@ciphergacha9100]

@@NotMirrorspeople use kunai outside of x10?

[@NotMirrors]

@@ciphergacha9100 yeah, it's like, the most common knife to see a Hale's Own of in casuals

[@fiblyy]

As a spy main, the existence of the razorback invalidates your ability to kill snipers when using the YER which is the most annoying thing for a knife that's mostly only good for taking out engineer nests. So if you are using it for dealing with sentries you are completely unable to kill snipers due to the fact that you will always be visible to a sentry

[@DommTom]

" invalidates your ability to kill snipers when using the YER " but ... why use the YER? This thing sucks. And if you don't want to use the Kunai out of fairness then use the Big Earner or the stock Knife. It's way better.

[@fiblyy]

@@DommTom I stated "mostly only good for taking out engineer nests" im well aware that its overshadowed by most other knives. I'm saying that the razorback makes an already underused weapon even less enjoyable and less preferred

[@kamikadze9482]

@@DommTom YER now sucks, so it should be fixed to at least not suck

[@owenblount7334]

Butter knife or le tranger him it’s what I do

[@owenblount7334]

@@kamikadze9482 really just needs the 33% faster cloak drain removed that’s really what kills it forces you to run the le tranger

[@Heidegaff]

Love how Sniper, an already OP class, was designed to have its downside to be that if he lacks awareness, he ded, and they just kept on adding weapons that are designed specifically to make you live if you're unaware of your surroundings. Can't detect Spies? Razorback. Can't stop a Pyro from getting close? DDS. Can't stop Scouts from getting in your face? Jarate+Bushwacka.

[@MrTriple3D]

Sniper isn't op, his downside is his lack of mobility and awareness. Not JUST awareness. And your reasons completely contradict eachother, you can't equip the Jarate DDS and Razorback all at the same time. So just switch class or weapon depending on what he's wearing. Not detecting spies "skill" is irrelevant due to the invis watch not to mention the spy can just shoot the sniper, DDS only really counters the flareguns, not so much the flamethrowers. if a Pyro close to you, then it doesn't matter you have the DDS equipped, you are dead anyway. and Scouts outrun melee range, so not sure how a Jarate Bushwacka counters Scout.

[@aganaom1712]

@@MrTriple3D sniper player spotted

[@bigblue344]

@@MrTriple3D The lack of mobility is only a weakness if you are playing competitive 6's otherwise it's not an issue at all. Also his argument is based on the versatility of what kind of hard counters you can have at your disposal in a loadout so its not contradictory. Spy's have to uncloak and make a loud sound when doing so plus you have to be aware anyway of a scout or a random demoknight going on your flank. DDS is a good escape plan to escape from pyro's unless you want to try your luck with a melee crit. And if you are unsure how jarate and bushwake counters scouts then you either must play competitive TF2 at the highest levels or you have no idea about game balance. Your entire comment is null which is no surprise from somebody trying to defend sniper as being a balanced class.

[@MrTriple3D]

@@aganaom1712 not argument presented

[@MrTriple3D]

@@bigblue344 the lack of mobility is a weakness all across the board. a sniper is never going to be able to escape 2 competent scouts/soldiers/demos. "Also his argument is based on the versatility of what kind of hard counters you can have at your disposal in a loadout so its not contradictory." none of them are "hard counters" at all. they're counters but not hard counters. of course spies make noise. don't be surprised when you get instakilled for uncloaking behind somebody. "plus you have to be aware anyway of a scout or a random demoknight going on your flank." is redudant, "DDS is a good escape plan to escape from pyro's unless you want to try your luck with a melee crit." is completely dependant on your positioning. you're not gonna escape a pyro if you're not near spawn with the DDS. "And if you are unsure how jarate and bushwake counters scouts then you either must play competitive TF2 at the highest levels or you have no idea about game balance." ok so either i'm a god or i'm trash. how does that make sense? i can't explain to you why i believe sniper isn't op but i have found a video that describes what i think pretty well. watch jbirds "is sniper op" video

[@tropicalhighs]

weird amount of comments, only 10?

[@geist6032]

The fact this was added in the same updated as the amby makes you question valve's thought process "we have a weapon that renders snipers immune to spy's one-hit knife! (it works only once)" "we have a revolver that [then] could headshot anyone from across the map"

[@Jpmrocks7]

I mean, it makes sense. You give sniper something to counter his biggest weakness, which is seeing behind him. So, you give spy something to get around this. I dont see what's confusing.

[@geist6032]

@@Jpmrocks7 Because it completely negates the razorback by potentially one shotting the sniper with a crit or at the least draing his health down to where you can finish him with a simple poke

[@velDANTe]

@@geist6032 you forgot that execution is a key here. for experienced spy it may be no difference, but for a noob spy scoring a backstab is 100x easier than headshotting and finishing the sniper.

[@M4x_P0w3r]

@@velDANTe It's not even about the execution. Like the example in this video, it makes dealing with a sniper backed up by his team near impossible, if not a suicide mission. And again, Spy is supposed to counter Sniper

[@calebdehate7002]

@@M4x_P0w3r I would counter that dealing with any class backed up by their team is near impossible, or suicide mission. Spy is a support class that relies on confusion and inattentiveness to do his job. The Razorback does need a rework but its not a spy's bane given most of the time a good attentive sniper will notice the spy before a backstab anyway forcing the spy to shoot or flee.

[@Psychopathman12]

"The Razorback involves absolutely no input from the Sniper himself" You are wrong. You have not yet experienced the delight of intentionally doing a 180 during a melee fight to force a Spy into stabbing it and then using schadenfreude at them for giving +1 to your strange razorback. Viable? Not really. The peace of mind is solid if you really have problems with spies. But the sheer audacity of breaking apart a spy teleport camping or ruining a chainstab is understandably powerful.

[@RdTrler]

Oh god. It's just SO extra to put your back to a Spy so his butterknife becomes a big stun. But what's equally funny is when you use the Amby/Diamondback to crit them, and then butterknife them when they turn around on you. It's a dumb weapon, but you could argue that the Pomson and Bison are dumb weapons as they border Friendly levels of harmful.

[@owenblount7334]

That’s the counter to my counter of just butter knifing razorback snipers to death hit em with the London welcome

[@Random-Internet-Stranger721]

Copy and pasted from a reddit comment section but it just words it better than me so i'll repost it here anyway Remove the razorback. I'm not joking when I say I believe it's one of the most degen unlocks in the game. "Let's just give Sniper the ability to deny any of his counters for no effort." This includes the danger shield too. "I think you might be right - it's a weapon that *encourages* you to play dumber by foregoing situational awareness and neutering one of (at least in principle) Sniper's main counters, when Spy is already practically the weakest class in the game. And on top of that it's garbage in 90% of circumstances, as you can do so much more with ALL of Sniper's other secondaries, not to mention having overheal helps Sniper way more in general. It might actually be the single worst (in every respect) unlock in TF2."

[@cFrogjar]

I felt my whole body seize up at the idea of ever class being able to equip the razorback. That really does just show that this things gotta go

[@SpartanChief2277]

op in class wars

[@krakenofthesea106]

Give everyone the medigun

[@Musicalquest]

Or just give everyone the spy’s knife it will be the worst weapon because you’re going for backstabs

[@yanniking7350]

This logic applies to any weapon

[@TinyDeskEngineer]

*Give anyone any weapon.*

[@garrettbates9124]

As for the Darwin's Danger Shield: I think it's rework should be reverted... But without the bullet resistance/explosive vulnerability. It would mean that Sniper can still be insta-headshot but still allows him to take a bit more damage in general.

[@joshuabeatty7371]

The razorback could be reworked as a take less damage from the back at the cost of slightly more damage from the front type of weapon, backstabs could deal 80-90% of total hp.

[@bigblue344]

I would just say reduced damage from behind is a fair enough balance just because you are giving up useful and defensive secondary's.

[@VagueCastle649]

@@bigblue344 A.K.A. Jarate

[@Buglin_Burger7878]

@@bigblue344 You can still just shoot people in the head, aim and shoot. The same thing everything else does.

[@PanDiman]

Razorback can be a surprisingly useful item. And even when it's not bringing any active use by shocking the backstabber, it genuinely makes you feel less paranoid about the potential threat of Spies sneaking up right behind you.

[@Lukatron-wk4pt]

duh, that's the point of the video

[@particlemane3359]

How to balance: Cause the screen to vibrate when a spy is near. Similar to the Spycicle, it provides a counter-counter by hindering the class' primary mechanic. It is hard to land headshots when the screen is moving on its own. This can even be made into the design of the weapon: the big battery on the shield is the vibrator that detects spies in the vicinity. I would remove the backstab protection, because being alerted to a spy's presence is enough of a buff.

[@lilygoatgruff]

Turning the Razorback into the Rumblepack

[@TKsh1]

Oh boy, I sure love fighting the class that is supposed to be weak at close-range but can counter me with a crit or making my weapon useless, that's considering I don't get one-shot trying to reach him! Peak game design, eveyone!

[@essayenjoyer]

Have you considered that it's a skill issue?

[@KorotasGeckoGamingCorner]

@@essayenjoyer At least a Sniper quickscope headshotting you at close range takes skill and is genuinely cool when it's pulled off unlike Jarate-Bushwhacka combos

[@davidpico1579]

@@KorotasGeckoGamingCorner or Just an melee random crit

[@halfpace1462]

@@KorotasGeckoGamingCorner skill>balance?? ive been quickscoped far too many times in and position were the sniper should be dead sure its skilful but come on man that's plain stupid, no other class can get out of that type of shitty situation

[@Subject_Keter]

Honestly if Snipers had to wait 2 seconds it would fix it.

[@Glasta326]

Holy shit someone finally talked about this thank you Almost every single point you make here is dead on, although I personally think the worst bit isnt even the backstab immunity, but the fact the spy cannot do any counterplay after a razoback stab, due to being stunned

[@kyle44514]

Right, removing the stun would actually force the sniper to play defensively in a situation that he really should be losing in anyways.

[@SyRose901]

About someone "finally" talking about it: FishStickOnAStick has "Sniper's Backpack Bonanza", a great video on all of Sniper's backpacks, proposing changes for them as well. Now, this video is good as well.

[@jaidenbaxter1871]

I fairly recently back stabbed a razorback sniper (I wasn't paying attention and didn't even notice he was wearing it) when my stab didn't do anything I just assumed I missed and stabbed him again, he had really bad tunnel vision due to my team doing a push on payload.

[@Eye_Of_Odin978]

As WitheRosE said, Fish Stick on a Stick did talk about this a while back on his channel, although that was focused on all backpacks and not just the Razorback. Although he did say that even as a Sniper main, the Razorback and Danger Shield are complete clusterf%cks that are just designed to say "screw you" to one class. (Spies and Pyros) He stated that it wasn't enough effort to shut down Pyro and Spy players and that they should definitely be reworked.

[@cheddarcheese5308]

The Razorback forces spies to THINK and switch things up a bit, im not even a sniper main, i play engi, but weapons that allow or force classes to switch things up are definitely interesting, and the razorback is rarely ever used by decent players, most people who use it just think they're immune to spies and never unscope, the diamondback or the ambassador almost nullify the razorback entirely

[@Inserting-a-Perfect-Username]

Wdym "force spies to think" it's pulling out your revolver and shooting the guy 3 times before he dies, anyone who's played Spy for over 10 hours would've figured that out by now. Not saying I disagree that weapons which force classes to switch things up are a bad idea, but the Razorback just fails in that concept entirely, it's only ever been either a boring obstacle that does nothing but make a Sniper's death more tedious or a massive annoyance to spies who just want to use the basic mechanic of their class and sometimes HAVE to do so if they want ensure they'll get that Sniper pick. Compare that to Jarate which is much better at forcing Spies to think since it punishes them for getting caught out and discourages them from making risky decloaks right next to a sniper as they can't just cloak away anymore if the Sniper hears them and turns around. Let's make another comparison of the point I'm getting across. Rescue Ranger and the Short Circuit. Rescue Ranger can be an actually interesting challenge for Soldiers and Demos as it opens up more opportunities for every class involved, the Engineer can now heal his buildings without the risk of being shot himself, but it isn't as strong as hitting it 2 times with your wrench and the primary weapon itself sucks at defending yourself when your sentry goes down. Alternatively, you can grab your sentry from far away and save it from spam or a sticky trap that's about to detonate, but at the cost of half your metal and being more susceptible to direct attacks while carrying your buildings. This is a good example of a weapon that gives you more options to deal with your class counters instead of just taking away options from Soldier and Demo themselves, and an interaction that at least I find interesting. Compare that to the Short Circuit, which is the exact opposite of my previous sentence. It does nothing but delete Soldier and Demo's main sources of damage, it's only major downside is nullified by having a Dispenser next to you, it may or may not be fun for the Engineer but definitely isn't fun for the Soldier or Demo, and does nothing but shut down the mechanics of another class. Razorback is no different from the latter, it's only useful for countering a single class, it's not fun for either class, and at best, still ruins class interactions.

[@SquimJim]

Does it? A better description would be that it allows Snipers to NOT think. There is nothing interesting about the Razorback. It requires 0 input from the class using it and simply acts as an obstacle to the class who is meant to have an advantage in that situation. Its effectively a crutch that prevents the Sniper from properly learning the matchup. Using Engi as an example, the Razorback is like the equivalent to if Scout got a passive secondary that let him bypass Sentry damage. Does that force Engineer to think? Or is it a lazy gimmick that lets Scout handicap his biggest counter?

[@ElPolloLoco7689]

@@SquimJim Pretty sure that Scout's secondary you're speaking of is the Bonk Atomic Punch, but at least this one stops you from inflicting damage on players and buildings

[@SquimJim]

@Obunga Bonk isn't passive. And yeah it prevents you from attacking at all.

[@ApexGale]

it should not be the job of the spy to change their entire playstyle to check the class they're DESIGNED TO COUNTER, just because the Sniper equipped a shield that does nothing else. It's a crutch weapon for worse snipers or a broken weapon for good snipers playing against competent spies. You said you were an engineer main. Alright then - do you think it would be balanced if you had a weapon that just auto deleted explosive projectiles if they entered within a radius of your sentry? I'm not talking the Short Circuit - it costs metal and has to be aimed, meaning there is interaction. I'm saying: you equip a secondary, and now any and all projectiles flying at your sentry just vanish in a puff of smoke. Would that be fair? That the soldier and demo's core design to counter Engineer just gets completely negated? It's just inherently bad game design.

[@Pub4si]

1:50 "outright refuse to use" Razerback to the right "equipped"

[@SquimJim]

Hey I said I used it just for this video! Begrudgingly.

[@Pub4si]

@@SquimJim lel np

[@Ihaveagasmask]

@@SquimJim right 🤨

[@Dovah_Slayer]

​@@SquimJim then why did you get a strange one? Lol

[@SquimJim]

@@Dovah_Slayer You didn't notice that ALL of my weapons are strange?

[@Starcasm]

what happens if i watch your videos before breakfast?

[@ericthompson9002]

Thats what I'm doing lol

[@sombodythatyouusedtoknow9046]

You get kidnapped and get shot in the back of the head after being tortured with car bateries

[@visiblydeaf6448]

It's simple. You die

[@SquimJim]

You die instantly. Instantly!

[@visiblydeaf6448]

@@SquimJim Get rekt Squim I said it first

[@aganaom1712]

The razorback isn't even a good item. Its just toxic against spies. And frankly, the way it is right now is part of the reason that I think all of spy's revolvers should mini crit headshot

[@Traystigo]

That would be beautiful. I would love that so much. That would make playing spy that much more interesting. How would you treat the Amby in this case? Just have it remain a normal full crit?

[@bigblue344]

Toxic against spys? Does a sniper having a razerback prevent you from playing spy at all? And minicrits on ALL revolver headshots? You crazy? I can see that for the enforcer but not for everyone when the diamond back exists.

[@aganaom1712]

@@Traystigo amby would stay full crit but the cut off distance would be further away

[@Omarciyo-mn9xl]

@@aganaom1712 I agree, the damage fall off nerf would be a-ok if headashotting was good atleast at mid-range

[@BlazingShadowSword]

"We basically know that snipers only equip the Danger Shield when being harrassed by flares." Incorrect! I equip it with its set because I like making little tombstones. God! Some people.

[@MrShadow8869]

An idea that I had for the razorback could be that it stops a spy from cloaking/disguising because of the electricity running through it. It would obviously have to be changed slightly to make that work but it would be an interesting counter way to instead of how it is now

[@Aaa-vp6ug]

Yeah, still a few problems, but a lot better. Why doesn’t the car battery do anything but just FX?

[@Dr_Dan_]

13:37 should also work like the spycicle, when you loose the shield you cant use any weapons. because other wise snipers would intentionally run into enemies and destroy their shields to gain the speedboost

[@gipsydangeramericasmonster9632]

The spycicle doesn’t let you use weapons when it’s melted? Coulda sworn you can use your gun if it is.

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

@@gipsydangeramericasmonster9632 it gets rid of the gun no idea what this guy is on about

[@cyberxd1518]

@@gipsydangeramericasmonster9632 Good luck using your primary agaisnt every single other class that outguns you and outpowers you while being a class thats based around precise pick decision making and stealth to outset that inbalance

[@Dr_Dan_]

@@gipsydangeramericasmonster9632 you sacrifice you main weapon to escape. Imagine if you still coild backstab while being fire immune

[@Dr_Dan_]

@@isaac922 because people always do that when something grants a speed boost. It doesn't even metter because you will be escaping🤨

[@MantaRaydiated]

13:37 I think this also creates a great counter your counter moment because you create the situation of using the Backscatter to counter that Razorback Sniper

[@voxfoxclips8684]

Sniper tryhard: (Has Razorback) The Spy's Ambassador: *"Please allow me to introduce myself. I'm a man of wealth and taste."*

[@RagnarTheGrey]

I will be forever bitter about the old panic attack. It was my favorite primary on 3 classes.

[@user-cx9un9fs7q]

I swore to myself never to use the razorback or danger shield, if a spy kills me or a pyro kills me I say they deserve that kill, and I’ll move on.

[@Josh-jw3go]

Cringe

[@user-cx9un9fs7q]

@@Josh-jw3go well screw you cause you’d be happy if your playing spy and you got an easy stab on me. I wasn’t trying to be toxic in the slightest but I guess a lot of people are just love being jerks don’t they,

[@The_WhitePencil]

12:29 from my experience with die hard sniper mains, this is exactly the kind of thing they would try to pull off.

[@tkienjoyer]

Mordecai and Rigby, if you don't remove the razorback YOU'RE FIRED!

[@richardgarrison5286]

I like to imagine Squim just records immediately after breakfast

[@Whomobile]

Pretty much everyone aside from sniper mains hated the razorback back in 2009, probably the one item I think should be removed from the game. I like the suggested mechanics of a damage shield tho.

[@RdTrler]

I remember pre-Razorback nerf, I once pocketed such a Sniper with the Vaccinator. We were defending the first control point in Dustbowl, and went all 4:30 minutes without either of us dying. See, enemy Spies picked me instead of him. But he could quickscope them if they came after me. Enemy Snipers couldn't see me, so they quickscoped him, but he'd survive. Everyone else got shut down by his headshots, and even random crits couldn't kill him because of my Vaccinator. A Spy *did* break his Razorback but they were too late. So that nerf was necessary.

[@sorryforprojectingmyparent6402]

Not using other secondaries is the sacrifice, i am willing to make

[@lloyfirvind3274]

I think the jarate is a great example of a spy-counter weapon done well. it counters spy's invisibility but it also functions against every other class. The sniper also has to actively use it to get the benefits which is more interesting than equipping a passive.

[@alexwasherefirst]

7:24 never seen a ragdoll like that

[@spamhonx56]

As someone who basically never unequipped the razorback, i'm of the opinion that the razorback is mainly useful because backstab hit registration is broken AF. You're fighting a spy, knife v kukri, the frenchman wipes his butterknife across your face and suddenly you're instakilled because it counted as a backstab. You say "that's bullshit" and equip the razorback, and fight the spy again. This time, when butter is applied to your face, the spy is now stunned and you kukri him. The spy says "that's bullshit" and leaves you alone. The razorback is now a psychological weapon. I never felt the lack of a secondary weapon because if an enemy's too close to quickscope, they're close enough to chop. It also lets you not bother spychecking everyone who comes near you because if you're as good as i used to be when i played nothing but tf2, you're able to headshot the spy before the second amby bullet hits you. No spychecking means you can focus more on sniping, making you more effective. Ultimately, the razorback prevents one way of you being oneshot. you should be able to dodge crockets and critpills, you should be actively hunting enemy snipers, and you shouldn't be frequently in danger of melee crits, so a disguised spy walking past your team and instakilling you is actually a large portion of your one-shot deaths. turning that into a kukri-v-revolver duel massively increases your survivability if you're any good with melee. I don't think the razorback is dumb, either in the useless or OP sense, but i certainly think a case can be made that it wouldn't be as useful if backstab hitreg actually worked.

[@kaylormurillo7207]

Me: *sees that sniper/engie example* The Ambassador: Allow me to introduce myself.

[@iminumst7827]

The Diamondback: 😈

[@PoutyBun]

Its also semi good that this thing exists, because it tricks snipers into not taking jarate, which can be a downright oppressive unlock to use in team fights

[@Pururut]

Im more afraid of jarate snipers than razorback snipers tbh

[@tristanglock4925]

an idea I had while watching this video is "The Eye Back" an item that helps snipers combat their own tunnel vision by making semi subtle alerts when an enemy class is nearby

[@bigblue344]

"Bullying people for using a weapon is more annoying then the weapon itself" Somebody never had to deal with a vac medic pocketing a sniper with the machina. Or dealing a spy with a diamond back with the dead ringer.

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

vac medic pocketing anyone is annoying

[@bobbyferg9173]

@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 The Vac is somehow simultaneously a weapon I hate when other people are being pocketed by it and when I am getting pocketed by it. Fighting a Vac pocket is a pain in the ass unless you can get your team to coordinate (a dream in random casual/pub matches) and at the same time I’d rather have the large burst of power that the Uber, Kritz, or even Quick Fix provides as opposed to getting a bullet resistance bubble against every Scout I encounter.

[@bruhbruh-us6gl]

The thing about the deadringer is that 99% of spies don’t use it properly, and even for those that do, it cripples spy’s positioning capability in exchange for extra survivability. Right now I consider it pretty underpowered, since the big earner and the stock watch basically gives you the same effect without sacrificing your positioning capabilities

[@bigblue344]

@@bruhbruh-us6gl Fair but I will always hate the dead ringer because I hate the core concept of it. When I kill something it should stay dead.

[@Strangesolstice]

@@bigblue344 except you don't kill the spy,you just damage him

[@holidaypenguin]

Take away the backstab immunity and replace it with hurting and movement-stunning a spy for a sew seconds. Make stabbing more of a tactical choice, as you will always secure the kill but might not be able to walk away after unless the target is alone and you have enough health. The main issue is there is absolutely no reason to ever stab or interact with it. The short circuit has the exact same problem - no sane player with more than 10 hours uses the primary fire. You need to be in shotgun-range for it to even hit.

[@patrykzukowski7471]

Yeah, I think the important premise of Spy's existence was that he could easily pick off Snipers, and Snipers were less OP because of it, and Spy was more useful. Now Sniper is absolutely OP and no one except another Sniper counters him. There was a nice balance back when Razorback didn't exist.

[@sud1881]

sniper is op not because of the razor back, but because humans have had 16 years perfecting their tf2 headshots

[@coren5911]

TBH you can pick razorback snipers off using the ambassador pretty easily

[@aejiis]

I really dislike this premise of making every class equal in power to each other, because that is not what TF2 is about. Teams in-game are successful when they have good team balance, not because every class in the game is perfectly balanced. Spys serve the purpose of taking out distracted enemies and saving teammates the trouble of dealing with tanky enemies. While you might think that spys are designed to take care of snipers and should be able to serve that role perfectly, they are not. An item that can semi-counter a single attack from an occasional threat is not something that needs to be removed from the game. As it stands, the razorback is perfectly balanced, even if it's a downgrade from it's standard alternative.

[@sud1881]

@@aejiis yeah I hear you when you say that this is a TEAM game, but honestly it seems as if the game has changed into this odd, pool of 1v1’s as everyone cries over the kunai and Vaccinator due to requiring teamwork to counter. Almost as if Team Fortress 2 is no longer a team based game somehow? Idk I just think tf2 isn’t a team game anymore based of of people’s reactions to being forced to use teamwork to counter the kunai.

[@Inserting-a-Perfect-Username]

@@aejiis An item specifically designed the nullify the main source of damage from another class is not a good design concept at all. That would be like giving Sniper an item specifically designed to make him immune to fire which is Pyro's main source of dealing damage, oh wait............

[@borklazer5907]

The Engineer killing himself with his own wrangled sentry makes me happy in ways I can't explain.

[@MetuendusDominus]

The Sapper slot on Spy is the most useless weapon slot in the game, it affects exactly one class, an entire slot to target one class. Whilst class specific counters are generally viewed negatively the sapper gets no such complaints, weirder still is that only two (unique) weapons exist in the slot, and the Red Tape Recorder is useless compared to stock. It would be nice to see something added to this entire slot other than just an Engineer counter.

[@CreeperthanPasta]

Not to mention the sapper has a delay on it when you whip it out.

[@SquimJim]

Maybe in an ideal world the Sapper would have other effects, but its really not in the same camp as the Razorback, Danger Shield, or Spy-cicle. It's something Spy has by default so he's not giving up anything to use it. And the Spy-Engineer dynamic from the beginning was built around Spy being a threat to Engineers and their buildings. Sniper wasn't designed around not being backstabbed, Spy was designed around being afterburn immune, etc

[@Duskets]

To me, the Razorback rewards Snipers for carelessness by letting them escape punishment for being snuck up on. People who say "just shoot them" are missing the point -- Spy's backstabs are supposed to be a hard counter to the Sniper. By being backstabbed as a Sniper, you are being punished for your failure not to maintain awareness of your surroundings, in the same way being shredded by the Heavy's minigun in a face-to-face battle is the game's way of telling you that fighting them head on is a bad idea.

[@Dumb_Unfortunate_Man]

I actually always purposefully backstab razorbacks, mainly because I always have another spy with me to finish the Sniper off before he even notices the first backstab. The other purpose is, well, fun.

[@Mikington]

Imagine walking over to the oblivious sniper, about to get the backstab, then the razorback just appears right into existence. Now you have to shoot em', but you forgot about you have the LETRANGER equipped.

[@colatf2]

Lstranger is decent at killing the sniper if you shove it up the sniper’s ass and don’t miss 3 shots in a row

[@tfcgames191]

I'm honestly kinda shock it took someone THIS LONG to talk about how dumb the Razorback is. everytime I bring it up I'm looked at like I'm some kind of crazy person so I'm glad someone has the same thoughts as me.

[@akashisan96]

"Just shoot the sniper in front of his entire team and a lvl 3 sentry bro." The unlock is just a nuisance and gives a Sniper that sits with his team only one true counter: himself.

[@Underworlder5]

@@akashisan96 that is the exact reason why razorback was nerfed to deny overheal. snipers in comp are only countered by spies and other snipers, and an overhealed sniper with razorback shut down both

[@bacon-sandwich4726]

ideas -razorback can be pulled out as a shield to block 50 damage before breaking, but you are vulnerable to backstabs while it's equipped -razorback damages both the sniper and the spy when backstabbed

[@snakyYT]

idea The your eternal reward is the longest and sharpest pointed knife. It should stab through the razorback. Logical buff

[@SolarizedPhoenix]

The Razorback is bad because, with no input from its user, an enemy spy is forced to not use the most important part of their kit, and is forced to either pathetic butterknifing, or using the revolver, which just exposes them without guaranteeing a kill. Imagine in Call of Duty where you could equip something that suddenly made you immune to shotguns, forcing the enemy to use a pistol instead while you just blast them away.

[@ShowBizel9392]

I think the perfect fix is a damage vulnerability (enough to allow the spy to kill him in 2 shots) (maybe just for revolvers instead of all damage?) and maybe a lil bit of movement penalty to make it harder for the sniper to get away

[@HeDronHeDronHedron]

+25% bullet vurnerability. “Oh, but the ambassador could then ONE SHOT the sniper!” Yes that’s how counters work. Spy is meant to counter sniper.

[@ebookie_meowda]

I like all these people being like "Hurr durr Spy has a gun" without even watching the fucking video. WE KNOW HE HAS A GUN. But Razorback opens up scenarios where Sniper is literally invincible against Spy without doing a single fucking thing to earn it. If there is a sentry nearby, you CANNOT kill the sniper in time before you die. "Hurr durr TeAmWoRk". PROPER teamwork should be to kill the spy before he gets to the sniper. Teamwork shouldn't be make one player invincible.

[@CactusCanon]

9:24 Would have been the PERFECT time to do the Huntsman taunt

[@storyfellchara416]

My suggetions about reworked the Razorback: (+) +25 max health on wearer (+) Backstab deal normal knife damage (-) No overheal (-) -25 max health on wearer when the shield is break (-) When the shield is break:Sniper get highlighted for 10 secs (making both you and your enemy team can see Sniper through the wall) (-) Razorback now can only recharge by the resupply locker This is just my suggetions

[@arenmee540]

Wrangler shield and deadringer damage resistance + speedboost are on the same boat of minimal input for high reward. The opponents on the receiving end have to deal with Wrangler Engineers pressing the 2 key and Deadringer spies pressing right click.

[@fudgegorilla]

I have a suggestion-To make the Razorback more interesting, make it resist and maybe shock ALL classes that melee the sniper wearing it, stopping them from swinging for a full second-but no more. It'd defend against everyone, keep the Spy from being the only one getting cheated out of functionality, and give Sniper more ability to engage at close range despite Demoknights and the like. BUT, it'd also make him more vulnerable because once it's used up, he'd still be damaged by the regular swing hit he took. Also, instead of breaking, maybe it visibly discharges something, and when it's recharged the battery is...visibly crackling? Who knows.

[@M.F.Hafizhan]

I'd rather it doesn't recharge tbh. One use, and you won't get them back until you die and respawn

[@jasonlu4514]

I think that's just way too big of a middle finger to (full) demo knight/trolldier. Like the common argument against jarate + bushwacka combo, sniper are suppose to be a lot weaker at close range in exchange of his ability to long range instant kill

[@kommentier9884]

So instead of screwing over only one class your suggestion is to screw over EVERY class AND don't give it any additional downside? Are you simply trolling or do you never think about your suggestions before you say them?

[@jasonlu4514]

@@kommentier9884 I was going to say don't be so harsh, but then I realized in the BUT section they only added a visual change.

[@drucy.]

The "scent tree down" at 5:10 made me laugh much more than it should have.

[@BasicallyBaconSandvichIV]

What I would do for the razor back is have it be able to shield sniper from a set amount of damage from one particular side. But not just from the back, but also from the front. By switching to their razorback slot I'd have it move the damage shielding from the back to the front. This gives sniper some more options with it. Same for the other shields. And if you wanted it to be more loyal the original concept I'd make it so that shielded backstabs do a flat amount of damage. Not high enough to instantly kill at full-health, but where it could at a lower health value. Wheter or not it stuns the spy I don't know. So let's take the middle option and just half the stun period for now, maybe a bit more. To make sniper more fun in general, I'd make it so when scoped in his entire line of site becomes visible. And I'd majorly nerf the damage of quick-scoping. Though I wouldn't really nerf the bows, just make the arrows leave a particle trail. Maybe fix some of the jank aswell.

[@aembattledturtle8562]

An interesting way to do it, if it had to have the backstab defense, I’d have it charge in chunks and at 100% charge it fully blocked the stab, at 50% it blocked a percentage of the damage

[@SquibGourmand]

my 276 stabs blocked and i deserve justice! my words were not drunken ramblings! i spoke the truth! i spread the good word of the razorback! why are you booing me?? i'm right!!!!!

[@SquimJim]

Delete his comment! Delete his comment!!

[@TerribleTamato]

sausage

[@AndrewFullerton]

Spy is OP if you're a new player who doesn't have sufficient game knowledge to play around them. Sniper is OP of you have a head.

[@bruhbruh-us6gl]

As somewhat of a spy main, this is actually not true. I’ve found that the unpredictable behavior of new players make it extremely risky to attempt a backstab on them, since a failure almost certainly means death if they’re around their team. Besides this, new players are low-value targets compared to more skilled players, since skilled players are an actual threat to your team. Newer players are not, so it’s more risk for less reward. The only exception is heavy, since newer players can have a large impact and are still generally easy to backstab.

[@dantai68]

I know this video is a year old but it reminds me of a possible fix I heard somewhere. Which was to make the shield explode. Dealing about 90 damage to the sniper and blasting them upwards. It deals no damage to the spy and is activated by any melee weapon. So it can save a sniper from a backstabbing spy, but at the weird risk of being sent into the air and dying from the blast and fall damage. The shield also allows for the sniper to do a 1 time double jump via riding the 50 damage blast it causes at their feet. I think along with with it should be able to recharge via damage or kill instead of just over time.

[@SaltyBoi1030]

12:09 “Resistance from behind” 💀

[@darkranger116]

Been playing since october 2007, 1400 hours on sniper. i've never once bothered with the razorback. the darwin danger shield was perfectly fine when it only gave +25 hp, and now i dont even touch it anymore. I think the Razborback needs an injection of FUN, make it a selectable utility ability. Pressing 2 should activate the shield, breaking it, and sending out a stunning pulse within a short distance behind the sniper. If a Spy is working with their own teammate, there could be counter-play for the spy to intentionally remove the razorback with their knife before the sniper can activate it. The Darwin should really just give +25 health and nothing else. It was perfectly fine as that kind of item, it was the perfect pairing for huntsman users who didnt want to stand in the same spot on the same map forever. AT MOST, I would say one could put on another effect, like.. +10-15% damage resistance while Wet, or something. Idk if the item really needs it, but it might give the item and it's niche more personality.

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

darwins was perfect on launch, idk why they made it counter better snipers, and when that proved to be a moronic idea, made it counter basically just the scorch shot valve just cant balance snipers weapons i guess

[@Iwidelyoutliveeverything]

I'm so happy people finally see that sniper is OP

[@yyhhttcccyyhhttccc6694]

8:58 a demoknight charging at a spy using razorback as a shield would be terrifying for the spy

[@wendy-gw6kx]

as a sniper main the razorback removes one of the skill based aspects of sniper which is being spy aware you could try to get good at being spy aware and not hard scoping or you could just equip a weapon, same thing with the jarate bushwaka, instead of having to learn how to track with the smg, you can just brainlessly throw a jar of piss that has a huge splash radius and melee someone and just get it back instantly with the cabinet

[@sonicmeerkat]

As a medic player, Razorbacks honestly annoy me due to the fact I can't overheal them, being backline and out of direct damage snipers are basically ideal heal targets for crit heals (aside respawning players and engies) but I cant get that boost against enemy snipers trying to 1 shot me because my snipers are terrified of one spy that they won't even help kill because they're damn tunnel visioned. While the lack of overhealing is a fair downside the design of the weapon reducing the punishment for tunnel vision just encourages bad habits by design cause why would you take time away from dealing damage when you're protected by your main fucking counter?

[@muddashucka9743]

*overheal

[@muddashucka9743]

Fun fact: You build Ubercharge faster when healing targets with no overheal.

[@sonicmeerkat]

@@muddashucka9743 fun fact you get a 3X heal speed bonus for players that haven't been damaged for 15 seconds and the instant 70+ HP from the crossbow heals more than even the quick fix. also like why'd you gotta do another comment just for a snarky correction like 20 other people understood exactly what i was talking about.

[@muddashucka9743]

@@sonicmeerkat It's not a snarky correction. I was merely pointing out a spelling mistake.

[@thecommenter90]

Sniper: The batman of TF2.

[@Small_child_punter]

People are so attached to their skillless anti spy tool, that they don't understand how truly bad the concept of it is. They're not absorbing the issue with it. The weapon requires NO input from the sniper. You slap it on and that's it, you don't have to pay attention anymore. YOURE NOT DOING ANYTHING. You get a free tool that forgives your lack of awareness. They forget that theres another player on the receiving end of this. A player that has to evade everything the enemy team is flinging at them to get to one sniper. The reason they need that sniper is because sniper kills everyone instantly from very far away. Hes invincible unless that spy can get to him. Sniper is an important pick for a spy, and its a pick a spy SHOULD be able to get as payment for catching them off guard. The razorback shuts this down. Off guard or not, the sniper now has ample chance to fight back because the spy has to commit 3 revolver shots instead of one insta kill. If the sniper is quick to respond, now its a fight the spy doesnt have time for. This is forgetting the insane crit rate of snipers melee. If the sniper is near a sentry, or a another teammate, thats it the spy cannot get that sniper. The sniper is free to pop heads away. Its too hard to look out for spies? No shit. Its also tough for heavy. He also doesn't have the luxury of sitting back waiting for the spy like sniper does. He's a single target class that needs to focus down someone to get them, perfect time for a spy to get him. Heavy is spy fodder, but he doesn't get a razorback. In fact he argubaly deserves it MORE since hes involved in the fight and needs to focus way more. Sniper has the luxury of not being at immediate danger, which grants him enough time to check his surroundings. Separate your personal feelings about the tool, your personal experience with it. Just look at the concept of it. It shuts spy down on the class that kills everyone at far range. Thats its sole purpose. It shuts down the only class with the means of getting to the sniper. Why would that EVER be a good idea?

[@l_spagal7649]

My idea for the razorback was for it to turn crits into mini-crits (and by extension it'd turn backstabs into ordinary mini-crit knife swings), this gives it a wider functionality against other classes as well as still functioning to aid against spies. Elaborating further this could allow the Sniper to potentially survive crockets and headshots from enemy snipers (to a certain extent) as well as backline obliterators (phlog pyro, kritzkrieg medic, etc.) that plague the Sniper, the overheal penalty coupling nicely with this new change as the Sniper can survive these encounters but only barely having to then scramble for health with maybe 3 or 5 health remaining.