Bad Therapy and Irreversible Damage with Abigail Shrier | Episode 168

[@widerlenspod]

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[@asherahalchemy5101]

I'm 60, Jewish by birth. From kindergarten on I was utterly traumatized by continual repeated Holocaust info about mass killikns, the pictures of starved naked dead bodies in piles, piles of shoes of the dead, etc. this affects me adversly to this day. There has to be a middle ground between shielding children from reality and conveying dangers and bad situations. Denial doesnt help, neither does terrorizing children.

[@HarriedPedestrian]

I think that if you tell your child upsetting things, you should find a way not to make them feel powerless about it. Like: “This family is really struggling financially, but you can help by cutting coupons” or “Grandma is really sick and she might die, but it would make her feel so much better if you spent some time with her and brought her her tea”. That way, children know that there is a serious problem, but they are empowered to address it at least to some extent. However “Here is a picture of starved dead bodies in a pile, and this could happen to you and your family some day, so you should live is fear” is absolutely not an appropriate thing to dump on a kid.

[@ChollieD]

I'm 54, Scandinavian ancestry. I saw a lot of the worst of human suffering too early, too, and I think it's a continuing problem in the internet age. It's hard to say how/when to introduce kids to the Holocaust or genocide more generally. They must learn that people can do that while thinking well of themselves. But maybe it needs to wait until kids are teens.

[@Asptuber]

The middle ground is hard. I think kids probably deal well with historical things if it isn't centred. I was lucky not to see or hear about anything really horrible in my childhood. But I did know pretty early about how the dad of my grandma's childhood friend was shot (the dogs refused to walk there as long as my grandma was alive), I did vaguely know about the holocaust and horrors of KZ and POW camps in general, bombing of cities in general. But as a small child (

[@juliebatchelor55]

I’m an old lady who has watched my children and their friends “parent” their children. So glad you guys are talking about what I’ve believed. Thank you ladies

[@ceeceebeebee889]

I was a voracious reader a child, and I was a massive history nerd that went on to earn my Ph.D. I read all sorts of books on historical events and people as a child. Anne Frank's diary is a vivid memory for me. I remember crying and crying when I finished it. When you study history, you learn the world is full of terrible people who experience and perpetuate horrible events, and also good people who did great things. It's human existence. People experience death, famine, genocide, but they survived. That's the human condition-- we fight on as a species. Children today are so wrapped up in their bubbles that they don't see that everyone struggles in big ways and small ways.

[@janinegriffiths8281]

It occurred to me that we, as a culture in the USA, try to make everything easy and quick. Raising a child, living with others, getting along in society, all requires long term, hard but worthwhile effort. There is no making this process quicker or less messy. I wish we could see this and embrace it. We'd probably spend less time and stress if we did. Thank you ladies for a great program. I always get new insights when I watch your show.

[@Mymusic-pj1oc]

I have the same opinion. I think we need a serious overhaul of the work week schedule and pay. More family time. There's plenty of people for jobs, no need to work one person at one position to the bone.

[@BrittishCats]

This therapeutic overload and mental health diagnosis fetischism is seepeing into the care of physically ill patients too. I recently got MS, which leads to cognitive loss and personality changes but instead of getting proper mental health _support_ to overcome the acute phase of grief, depression, fear and personality changes that comes with having a serious illness I got the suggestion to be evaluated for autism. It was just surreal!! And enraging! They had the reason on paper and x-rays _right there_ infront of them, yet they wanted to assign a mental health condition that I meet zero criterias of. They pretty hastely dropped that ball when I questioned that more than once and asked them too explain why they thought I had autism, which ofc they couldn't. Wiped out my trust in medical and mental care for a long time after that day.. Thank you for this discussion. It's great to listen to all of you, gives me comfort there's still reasonable people and professionals out there.

[@jcimsn8464]

The indoctrinated young therapists are getting little meaningful supervision and experience before planting themselves as individual therapists. It's at a crisis point. Find seasoned professionals always.

[@BrittishCats]

​@@jcimsn8464 that is great advise, something to keep in mind.

[@janedoe6704]

Please please understand that the mental health field and the medical field are two separate fields! The medical field while it has its faults uses science while the mental health field uses almost no science so its a toss up what youre going to get. The medical field often repeats things the mental health field tells them to say but are more reliable when it comes to their own field. Both need some overhaul but the medical field is much much more reliable in general.

[@BrittishCats]

@@janedoe6704 I get that. That is true but when a special team consisting of professionals from several different fields is used the boundaries seems to get even more blurred. If one member of that team gets caught up in a diagnosis trend, the others will follow suit, cause that's the members role, to be the expert in that field. Specialcare teams are a great thing when you're seriously ill, that is exactly what's needed, but they can have a flipside to them apparently. :|

[@snorgonofborkkad]

I’ve heard about this lady and her book Irreversible Damage many times. I’ve never seen an interview with her before. She’s super normal and smart. It’s insane there’s still people who label you guys the opposite of what you are. Good interview boss lady’s.

[@middleagedteenager1874]

I think the problem is that we are being sold a dream that if we can figure out what our trauma is or we can remove all the stressful stuff from our lives we will move into a perfect happy place. Life can be pretty brutal and there’s little we can do about the fact that we have to face hard times. People we love will get ill and die, we will have to work with people we don’t like. This is the human condition, it is so powerful to realise that almost everyone else finds it all pretty hard too. We need to find ways to say, this is normal without minimising how difficult and hard things are. Take puberty, most people find it difficult, we don’t need to find a specific reason why we, specifically are finding it hard. It’s a bit disappointing but somehow comforting to realise that we are not special in our misery. My lightbulb moment was when I realised that other people were struggling with the same things but we can’t always see it.

[@ruthhorowitz7625]

There are no actual cures for PTSD, but some of the symptoms can be alleviated.

[@llkoolbean4935]

Well said

[@TheDanyell13]

I think it was actually a very valuable thing to witness my parents argue in front of me..or in another room. My dad was a yeller, and my mom could be stubborn as a mule. But it did teach me that they could have arguments and disagree and still come back together as adults after the initial storm was over and would talk and be fine. They were married for 30 years until my dad passed away, there was never even a thought of the D word. I think it actually gave me a good example for my own relationships. You can have an argument without breaking up, Thats an important lesson.

[@missanne2908]

My parents never fought or argued, although in their case it was due to my mother's absolute idolization of my father, instead of deliberately hiding it from us kids (she told me once she was looking for a father substitute in her husband). The problem was whenever I started arguing in my own relationships, or even felt anger, I thought I was doing something wrong. You were fortunate that your parents did argue so that you could see what a healthy relationship was actually like.

[@TheDanyell13]

@@missanne2908 My dad had a hard time dealing with emotions so many times it would start out as a very loud but very try surface or superficial argument, the fluff on top. My mom knew and had a way of just letting him bellow until he was at a point where she could see the real problem bothering him underneath, and then they could talk it out calmly. People today would have thought he was abusive. But he really wasn’t it was all just noise. He grew up in a different era, he was born in 1941 in end and post war Germany. There was no such thing as “gentle parenting” or really even childhood as we understand it. It took for me to understand all that background to really get how he thought. I’m sometimes grateful he’s no longer here to witness what’s happened in the last few years with all the fake problems people make up.

[@knittin4u]

Disagreeing in a healthy way models for a child how to manage conflict. As a therapist who has worked with children and families for over 10 years, I can tell you that your experience is unfortunately not typical. Most parents lose all sense when arguing in front of their children which confuses the children. Children spot hypocrisy very easily. It stirs anger and resentment in children when they are told to behave in certain ways, yet the adults around them cannot seem to manage their own emotions.

[@emperorhideyoshi3223]

@@TheDanyell13no you shouldn’t argue in front of your kids that’s crazy. And if you’re arguing all the time then it’s time to end the relationship. There’s a difference between an argument and a simple disagreement. It also matters how your partner handles these disagreements and how often they turn into arguments, and the content of said arguments

[@TheDanyell13]

@@knittin4u I definitely didnt fully understand it when I was younger but as an adult and learning more about my parents as humans instead of parents, I did understand. I of course hated the argument part of the exchage as it was happening. But it was the coming back together after the storm passed, and then the discussion happened. Thats the part I thought was pretty remarkable. Also It wasn't nessisarly "infront of me' as it usually was done in private but walls are only so thick. I was also taught to never be afraid of emotions as they are strong and nessessary, but learning to read the layers of them was the key.

[@tracyware1821]

I'm excited to read this book. I loved Irreversible Damage. Our family is still trying to recover from a Bad Therapist (using affirmative therapy, and many other horrific things) who almost ruined our family by projecting her dysfunctional family onto us. My children are still struggling and their mental health issues are still there!! I appreciate this podcast and Abigail so much!!!

[@AmericanAmy]

If a teacher is going to keep a secret for a child, such as them using a different name and identity it’s very possible they may ask that child to start keeping secrets for them. It’s weird. It’s not good. 12:48

[@snorgonofborkkad]

It’s grooming. They’re secretly trying to slowly introduce the idea that you’re family is bad or lying to you somehow. And that the teacher is good and loves you because she wants you to be “free”.

[@AmericanAmy]

@@snorgonofborkkad yep.

[@sophiafaith]

@@snorgonofborkkadyes and it grooms them to keep secrets about sex and (inappropriate) sexual experiences

[@biancawilloughby9980]

Nonsense. The child trusts the teacher but doesn't trust the parents. So they of their own volition discuss the matter with their teacher as they are terrified of their parents. Your comment is just more confected outrage from the likes of people like you.

[@biancawilloughby9980]

@@snorgonofborkkad Oh boy! (eyeroll) Yes it's all one giant woke bogey man leftist conspiracy to indoctrinate them into 'the trans cult' bwahahahahahhaaa!!

[@Nicole-ww4lg]

my mother always gave me and my brother creative tasks to do when we got in fighting moods when we were young. i went back to that method during the covid lockdown and i think it really did keep me sane. when your hands are doing, making, moving it quiets the mental chatter. the benefit of shutting that chatter up from time to time can't be overestimated.

[@cestmoi4532]

Thank you for this excellent interview! 💛

[@markkavanagh7377]

Great conversation, brought out the best in the 3 of ye! 👑👑👑

[@bemoregrandma]

Only half way into the discussion and I love it. I feel like I’m a normal mum, I’m from the Russian culture. I love my children but I also am very blunt sometimes. We are a bit like Italians, we need to let all the emotions out. My husband is British, very reserved, and sometimes I feel like I’m too “shouty” compared to him. But we all live in harmony. I can’t understand the parents who always speak softly and sweetly when a child misbehaves or rude. The child almost laughs back in their parents’s face and carries on. I might be wrong in my approach of course… Mg children also misbehave and argue with each other but never in public.

[@cherylewers6322]

Okay, good -- you covered the AI "therapy". Thank you for that.

[@Kellie-LynnPirie]

I remember when good trauma therapy centered around teaching people how to not be totally lost as in constantly obsessing about their trauma

[@briana5772]

I wish I could have found your channel when I was a teenager, but I was a teenager 20 years ago. What a great conversation. Amazing work you all do!

[@Dragonladyrvrr...]

Excellent discussion!! I've read both Abigail's books and they are spot on. We've been coddling and over protecting kids for so long, now that they are becoming adults they are totally lost. They're soft, narcissistic and totally unprepared for life and the real world. Just look at the difference between an 18yr old from the 60's and an 18yr old today. One is grown up and very independent and one is still clinging to mom's skirt tails. Therapy has its place and when I needed as an adult, it got me through a very tough time. But when it was done, my therapist cut me loose to live my life. These kids are being robbed of their childhood by constantly being "fixed" and it virtually never ends, they never launch or become independent. This way of raising them is the cause of all the gender confusion and the fact that doctors are getting rich off of it is the end result.

[@ruthhorowitz7625]

And in my generation serious issues got overlooked. I spent a lifetime being told I was just being difficult or I just need to try harder. At age 57 I was diagnosed with autism. My life makes sense now. There needs to be some middle ground.

[@martha5924-i3v]

​@@ruthhorowitz7625in fact, autism was not well understood back then. And when you wouldve been going through school, if you passed your classes, you wouldn't have been evaluated at all. That can even happen today as well.

[@ruthhorowitz7625]

@@martha5924-i3v especially with girls

[@sunnykendra]

This book really changed my perspective on my career path. I always thought therapy was best for everyone. Anyone can benefit from therapy but I never really considered the problems it could create. The side effects and harm that all interventions could have. I will be moving forward making into graduate school I will be making sure that I am educated not only in the therapeutic intervention but know when to stop therapy or pivot. I have recommended Shrier's book to everyone I can think of and quoted it often. I love that she took the risk in interviewing Dr. Peterson. I love that the message of this book is to start creating strong and resilient children. I will definitely be reading more from Abigail.

[@kimj5037]

I really love Abigail. She is definitely not afraid to sit the pot.

[@jollygoode4153]

Yes my brother has a child who became more and more violent as more and more gentle parenting took place so much so that just the threat of a tantrum ensures now that he gets everything he wants. Now at 19 he is described as a keeper who will never work and never leave home !

[@danihoney7087]

That’s so sad 😢

[@281992pdr]

Abigail's book is a great read. It really exposes the insidious "therapy" of gender affirmation of minors. A thoroughly researched and well written work. Highly recommended.

[@mht5875]

43:19 This is exactly why pre-teens and teens used to be occupied with all kinds of extra-curricular activities: music lessons, dance, Scouting, community volunteer work. They did not have the time to worry about their bodies going through puberty and wondering if it was normal or not.

[@finestcitycycling621]

Great discussion!

[@alison8817]

Couldn't agree more with what Abigail says here. When my own child & his friends were traumatised by a friend's murder at school they were offered counsellingl, instead they should've set up a sports team, art class etc for them. There are many types of therapy not just talking ones. Occupational Therapy came about as a challenge to the medical model in psychiatry and a is about meaningful occupation and not engaging in harmful occupation. Physiotherapy in mental health focuses on movement & exercise for recovery, understanding your body and how looking after it can help your emotional regulation. Speech therapy focuses on understanding and communicating needs. There are many other options, not just endlessly talking about feelings and motivations.

[@isax4u470]

45:45 nail on the head

[@laurahaynes8558]

Early mother-baby separation, post infant daycare, circa 1985 in USA. Also created snowplow moms, overprotection, guilt. BIG change in development w a major effect on the patrental capacities and intuitions and ability to inculcate identity.

[@joane24]

Last but not least (as I've written a couple of posts already). There's an ancient wisdom of the power of theatre/arts: catharsis. By inducing strong emotions (Aristotle speaks of fear and pity), and experiencing these emotions in a 'safe space', by witnessing the (moving but controlled and staged) performance (in the safety of a spectator's seat), one is able to simply vent these emotions and reestablish an internal emotional balance. (if I remember correctly, Aristotle speaks here of cleansing/purging in relation to safely processing these emotions). This is what came to me in relation to the sheltering the children from everything, e.g. not talking to them about Holocaust at school, or other difficult topics. But being met with these difficult issues, in controlled doses and settings (e.g. a history lesson, a book) is important. That allows one to prepare one's 'immune system' to actually face life, and not be broken at the slightest blow of the wind, and then actually see better the actual issues including injustice and evil, because one isn't so overwhelmed emotionally that they can't process it and rationally respond and advocate for the good.

[@weouryourthem]

Great talk. agree with all the parents not following their gut to parent their own kids .. they have completely givin control of their children, to therapists, and doctors and teachers... If those said think their child should act differently.. then ADHD meds, or now gender transition... This upcoming generation is going to have a lot of damage to undue on fragile fragile people 😔

[@weouryourthem]

42:57 all this stuff is so weird ...

[@joane24]

Re: journaling. When I was as a teenager, as most adolescent girls, I had a diary. Even considering that girls typically would journal, and most boys rather wouldn't, the idea of writing consistently and reflecting upon how you're feeling in your body, that screams a disaster to me! An absolute disaster. My journaling was about venting emotions or analysing events that happened, and it helped me to focus my thoughts. But it I were to additionally reflect upon my body... I can't even think what disastrous roads that could potentially lead to. Adolescence is confusing to anyone, with all the changes in the body, mental ups and downs, uncertainty if you're developing normally or what to expect, and a sea of insecurities about yourself - a typical teenag girl's experience. It's one thing to just vent out thoughts and emotions, but to intentionally reflect upon the (growing and changing) body... I can't even imagine. And speaking as a woman. For men (boys), it sounds even more absurd. I was so laughing along that part of the conversation. Just absurd.

[@John-tr5hn]

Don't even get me started on how we're stressing kids out by giving them all these choices from a very young age in life. Like except for their birthdays or maybe after a surgery or some other scary even, your kid doesn't need to choose where to go out to eat.

[@MPW66]

I so agree we had to confuse them with the one thing that was for sure their sex

[@aliciaochs]

The broken arm story hit home. My daughter fell off her bike at around 8-9 and everything was such drama. She said she thought her arm was broken and I gave her some ice and told her to lay down, you will be fine. An hour later still fussing about it and so took her urgent care and sure enough broken. Yipes! We laugh about it now.

[@tjcpersonal2144]

Children (and teens) already have a tendency to see the world as all about them. I remember because I was there once of course. Coddling them and focusing on themselves all the time can’t be good. They need to learn resilience and also empathy. They need to see their parents or others sad or scared on occasion and think about others at times rather than be protected from everything.

[@umhi9778]

Not really their parents. Since seeing your parents scared -when you're fully reliant on them for everything and need them to be able to guide you is terrifying. Friends and siblings are fine. But kids should never be in a position to have to comfort their parents until they're adults.

[@Nicole-ww4lg]

when a community goes after comedians for making jokes about them that is the beginning of the end. you gotta be able to laugh at yourself people. it makes life a lot easier.

[@77zztop]

So interesting how protecting kids from anything possibly upsetting in their youngest days actually works against them. Just like we vaccinate kids against infectious diseases while they’re really young, we should “vaccinate” them against mental viruses by introducing kids to ALL of the emotions when time is right, modeling by our own example how to cope with them. Reminds me of the story of the Buddha- his family trying to protect him from learning about disease and death until adulthood purportedly caused a mental breakdown.

[@janinegriffiths8281]

Perhaps a theraputic focus on what reality is like and how to deal with it, instead of trying to avoid it would be a more helpful approach.

[@snorgonofborkkad]

So what everyone already knew until 2015. Got it.

[@janinegriffiths8281]

@@snorgonofborkkad yup!

[@josephshuffield6113]

“Therapeutic” approach to reality? What exactly would that be?

[@silaslizzie43]

There are therapists out there for whom this approach has never changed. We are being silenced and bullied into conforming. Some of us will not conform and it tends to come at great personal cost to our professional life and stressload.

[@PaulCarr1]

I agree with the vast majority of what Abigail says but I struggle to identify in any parents that I have known strong examples of those ideal parents that can strike the right balance between caring and listening just enough and never pathologising. I feel that the model of parenting she is advocating for perhaps might emerge in the future, when the pendulum swings back towards the middle ground. My mother's mother was distant, judgmental and cared more for what the neighbours thought than the emotional life of her own children. My mother got pregnant at 15, in 1960, and was a pariah not only in the street that she lived, but also in her own home. She kept the baby but fell pregnant again at 21, she was made to give her up. I found out about this full sister when I was 42, via Facebook, my parents at first denied her existence, then revealed they had no intention of ever telling us other siblings that she existed. My father said it was, "None of our business." My auntie also gave a baby up in the 60s, as did 2 other of my mother's friends. All dominated by the will of their parents, fearing for their own reputations. Emotions were never discussed, parental authority was never questioned. My father was beaten so badly by my grandfather, when he was 4 years old, that he was hospitalized. The local newspaper reported it as a traffic accident, that's what my grandparents told the doctors had happened. These things were in no way extraordinary in the working class communities in which my parents were raised, my grandparents generation didn't "parent" they were parents. My father was working as a lorry driver's mate at 14. As was common, he left school and moved out of the family home, his connection to his mother and father was loose and distant. I just don't know when this golden age of concerned, wise parenting existed. My grandparents generation lived through a war, they simply "had" children. My grandmother was the youngest of 10, my great grandmother 1 of 11. Similarly, the generation that they raised, had little concern for the emotional needs of their kids, they simply didn't have the language to engage with such a concept. I imagine the generations born since the late 60s have had more concern, but this is a tiny window in which "decent" parenting was being attempted. My father would no doubt embrace the arguments in Abigail's book, he thinks kids are coddled, woke, whiny and that they've never had it so good. He has no access to his own feelings, they were buried when he was a child. Instead he believes himself to be just fine, stoic, capable, resilient. His self esteem, just like the self esteem like that of his abusive father, is high. My mother's self esteem after 50 years of handling him with kidd gloves? The self esteem of his children, forced to keep their needs to themselves and their fears hidden? Not so good.

[@siobhannoble8545]

Couldn't have put it better myself.

[@lupin4444]

Teaching kids problem solving (taking action) vs hyper-self reflection is actually easy.

[@CM-sy3to]

Vocabulary is important. You wrote your mother "fell pregnant" a second time while asserting that parental authority reigned. Evidently your mother chose at least twice and likely much more often, to rebel against her parent's and society's authoritative standard of sex only inside of marriage. I want to suggest that the facts of the matter (2 children conceived out of wedlock) point to the parents NOT being authoritarian at all, as the daughter not only became pregnant twice but while continuing to live with her parents. Also question the assertion that father would have any accurate memory at age 4 of abuse that hospitalized him when even a newspaper reported his hospitalization as from a vehicular accident. A child randomly arriving at the hospital with injuries would not prompt a newspaper mention.

[@lisadaluz1498]

A bad therapist can destroy a family. The power of concretizing a teenagers fantasy of being born in the wrong body. Today therapists words trump parents knowing about their own child that they have raised and cared for . Therapists ask no questions. They just agree automatically.

[@Lizzy1ES]

I’ve never had therapy or depression but being forced to move at 13 was very upsetting. I was miserable for 3 years. It made me permanently insecure. So don’t laugh about it. It was dreadful.

[@joane24]

I think the reluctance to say 'no, don't that, that [e.g. beating] is bad' is because in today's discourse saying a certain _action is wrong,_ is *conflating* it with _you're a bad person._ Nowadays you can't judge anyone's behavior, because that means you're automatically condemning the person, and thus you're being judgemental, hateful: - First, due to the expectation of moral relativism and subjectivism, you can't point out that something's wrong, because everyone has their own right to construct their own sense of right and wrong. - Second, people conceive their identity and personhood as conflated with their actions, behaviors, preferences. That gives no room for moral evaluation and judgement of behaviors and actions. It is so internalized, that is also reflected in how people bring them children up, and the reluctance to call out the bad behavior, focusing on the subjective emotions instead (focusing on the emotions: the 'I see you're troubled, let's figure out together how to handle that without beating your sister', and I've also written a separate post about it).

[@tamarpeleg7452]

“I really feel uncomfortable with the idea of people giving parenting advice who haven't raised good kids to adulthood,” says Abigail Shrier (27:21). I beg to differ. Relevant understanding and important insights can be gained in a variety of ways. We were all kids once and have drawn conclusions from our relationships with our parents. Some of us work with kids, some of us are interested in parenting, and some of us are observant and intelligent enough to articulate good advice. Sometimes, there is even an advantage in having a perspective that is not tied to personal experience. Advice or guidance can be helpful or unhelpful regardless of the personal status of the person giving it.

[@missanne2908]

The problem with Shrier's logic is, of course, that terrible parents may rear children who end up good in spite of and not because of their parenting skills. Does that make these people more fit to give parenting advice than the people you mention? But the reality is you are going to have parents who believe that only those who have parented themselves are fit to have an opinion, and will close their ears to all others.

[@TheJocelynrae]

She said she's uncomfortable, not that nobody else ever can have a useful insight or give advice, or that there are no other experiences that could give valuable information about parenting. I think a good part of her discomfort probably comes from spending time in the gentle parenting spaces on social media. I've been through a lot of their content, and it is FULL of people with 1 or 2 kids under 5 (or only an infant) giving terrible advice, that anyone who has raised a child even into middle years knows will backfire. And these aren't just people commenting on a question and spitballing some thoughts about how to maybe approach a specific situation - these are people putting themselves out there as "parenting coaches" because they've bought into a specific parenting theory. I've also personally witnessed therapists, who gave advice about raising children before they had kids, then have kids and follow their own advice and crash and burn because it was so terribly ineffective. Good advice is good advice, regardless of the source - that is 100% true - but a lot of what looks like good advice before raising kids to adulthood reveals itself to be obviously bad advice after the experience of actually raising kids.

[@danihoney7087]

I’m a young mum (will be 40, and my eldest is 17) I cannot stand when people my age with much younger kids than mine try to tell me what my 17 needs from me. I get that they may be reaching back and making assumptions based on their own teen years, but the majority of the time they are basing their advice (which I don’t ask for) on how they might deal with their 6-10 year old. Newsflash! Teens are a completely different breed! My girl was the happiest, kindest, most beautiful kid. She was easy to parent. But once she turned 16, with hormones, a bank balance, no way of stopping her leaving and a boyfriend, she became a know it all who barely talks to me. Sometimes it’s ok for a mum to vent. Sometimes all she needs is time he heard. I know my girl best, but it doesn’t make raising her any easier. Don’t offer advice unless you have something worthwhile to add

[@carterrennerfeldt1607]

Another excellent episode! A thought for Abigail: A fantastic next book--and fairly natural extension of this one--might be to write about the impact of race messaging (e.g., telling black individuals they will have to work 10 times as hard to succeed, etc.) on children (perhaps also adults). As with therapy induced over-rumination and fragility, I suspect the fairly recent uptick in divisive and regressive race discourse may be creating some v detrimental self-fulfilling prophecies...as well as potential scapegoating, excuse making, etc.

[@AmericanAmy]

Age appropriate, of course, but one should always be told the truth, one should be taught to seek the truth always. 7:53

[@adriang.3573]

I read her book and agree with a lot of it, but I can’t believe what she just said about homophobia no longer ex😮). People still try to beat the gay out of their kids in 2024.

[@middleagedteenager1874]

I did a double take on that as well but I think she was referring specifically to how even in really progressive areas there is an assumption that all parents are likely to be abusive as the default position.

[@decyattysyachpchyol]

​@@middleagedteenager1874Yeah she didn't say that NEVER happens but that is much less common especially in places like SF and that the default assumption is catastrophizing. It also teaches kids to expect that to be the default reaction to expect. We should acknowledge the range of reactions and take all into consideration, not only worst case scenarios.

[@cherylewers6322]

Ohhh, and then a moment later you go after Gabor Mate and Bessel Van Der Kolk. I guess we're trying to minimize extreme trauma now. I should have known.

[@markkavanagh7377]

Saying 'gone out with the Ark' has gone out with the Ark too, Stella! 😆

[@281992pdr]

Well, apparently not. 🤣

[@cherylewers6322]

Okay, well, even though your podcast is dismissive of genocide and the fact that developmental trauma is ubiquitous, I'll give a recommendation: Marie Louis Von Franz's "Way of the Dream". It's old. It's not perfect. Sure, she regarded Jung probably a bit too highly. But when it comes to gender, she's brilliant. The documentary is 8 hours long. It is delightful and challenging. By the way, there is at least one paper on gender-neutralizing Jungian archetypes. What's nice about that option, I think, is that yes you certainly have that liberty, but be honest with yourself about what happens to so many of the Jungian principles once you've done that. They're effectively diminished. Jung was very much a product of his time but you can't say he didn't devote his life to figuring out a way to give people the keys to their own inner kingdoms -- including in regards to gender and sex.

[@joane24]

Re: approaching the child 'I see you feel a difficult emotion, let's figure out what we should do about that' and all that: This puts a huge _burden_ on a child to be able to resolve their stress/negative emotion, but they don't have (yet) the tools to do that! They are yet to learn them! The child doesn't know how to resolve their discomfort in a constructive way, or to how withstand the discomfort when the immediate resolution is not possible. They have to learn it, and they learn it by (a) emulation of the behavior they see, and (b) by being told what to do. Second, when the child knows they actually do something wrong, you can't expect them to tell on themselves and admit their wrongdoing on their own, it's humiliating. They need to be told that, perhaps be allowed to express their dissatisfaction upon being scolded off (a way to 'save their face' and a sense of dignity), after which they are to comply. One cannot ask the child to parent themselves and expect it would work. The child needs to be parented. What used to be common sense, nowadays seems like a revolutionary idea, doesn't it. Children don't need coddling and sheltered. They need to be loved and parented. The authoritative parenting model - caring and supportive, but also guiding and setting limits/rules - has long been seen having the best outcomes, what happened to that?

[@balalaika852]

This is spot on. I was parentified as a child, and at 33 I'm still dealing with the effects of that. I was asked to behave like an adult to regulate my parents' emotions, and I can imagine being asked to parent yourself will be just as damaging.

[@robertmarshall2502]

Completely agree. I find it bizarre sometimes the way adults try to treat children like adults who are fully capable of understanding the complexities of life and emotions and as if they can create the structure themselves. Kids like models and rules and boundaries (at least before teenage years). They like the simplified nature of knowing the correct behaviour and knowing the consequences of bad behaviour. It makes them feel safe and know where they fit in. They also just need a distraction sometimes and to move on, not ruminate on their thoughts and feelings and why they are wrong. Teaching kids to constantly focus on their own thoughts and feelings really stunts them for me. It is not a surprise we have so many narcissists nowadays.

[@joane24]

@@robertmarshall2502 Yes, totally agree! However, one point: I would actually argue teenagers like the limits too! Just they won't admit it out loud!😅 The limits are there to say 'I love and I care about, you're not indifferent to me, therefore the limits'. Of course, they have to be different than for a younger child, she the teenager has much more developed sense of own personhood and autonomy (I don't mean it in the superficial sense of e.g. financial sustainance, but in the psychological and 'existential' sense, so to speak), so that needs to respected and rules and limits amended to accommodate that. But still, I would argue, teenagers actually like the rules even when they _say_ they don't! The rebelling against the rules is more about finding themselves but also about checking what are bonds, love, care, and this you find out by pushing against it.

[@robertmarshall2502]

@@joane24 Good point. It's very difficult to have a rebellious phase where you learn and explore if there is nothing to rebel against. There is also a certain element of, Are these rules really good for me or arbitrary? Are they there because my parents care or because they only want to control me? I think too many parents and teachers have started taking the selfish easy way out of trying to be friends. They want to be cool or progressive or keep up with the kids. Children generally don't respect them. They might like it in the short term but they often resent it later. If you give them lots of choice then they feel pressure to choose and make the right choice. They're more than happy for the teacher to make all the little decisions in most cases and not have to dedicate mental energy to it. I've literally had multiple students tell me that the worst teachers they have treat them like adults. They think it is weird. And I know ppl working in universities who tell me the young ppl entering them haven't learn lots of basic lessons like being on time or how to react to failure because they've had adults constantly make excuses for them and bend all the rules to the point they mean nothing. Children need parents and teachers, they have enough kids their own age to be friends with. My parents are like friends nowadays in some aspects and that's partly because I appreciate that they put in the effort with parenting when it was easier to be lax. But first and foremost they're my parents and they always will be. Which means they don't stop trying to guide me to the best outcomes even if they accept I'm an adult who can ignore them entirely or not. They'll still I work with kids and teens but I'm not lucky enough to have my own children yet. One thing me and my fiancée have very very clear is that we want to be parents. Not cohabit with children. Not make friends with children. And in our cases we're lucky enough to have brothers, aunts, uncles, parents, grandparents who are/were proper parents so we can try to follow those role models and do what we think best. Which we will decide between us as a united front.

[@Kayla-mf9se]

Im looking for resources in North Carolina. Therapy First isn't coming up with anything. 😅

[@hannahreay8976]

My only advice to any friends having babies for the first time is to only take advice from people who have nice kids!! Soft parenting is the reason for many problems that many different cultures have but you’re so right about immigrant families, and their children will often be much better behaved too. (I’m in the uk and an ex teacher, the trend is the same here) I feel that the major issue is that because people have shielded their children from emotional pain or discomfort and have removed them from difficult situations so they don’t have to deal with them means that some children and young people don’t take responsibility for their actions, so it’s always someone else’s fault. It’s never nice dealing with shit but unfortunately shit needs to be dealt with and you can’t live your children’s lives for them, we are almost emotionally disabling them by not giving them the tools to deal with difficulties xH

[@theway5563]

No, it is not wrong. ​@@Ddddddddd885

[@MPW66]

We see the results in the universities

[@sz4469]

In addition, if children are never exposed to other's problems they won't develop empathy. It isn't a natural thing, kids need to be taught to be considerate of other peoples' problems and points of view. We don't need any more narcissists. We already have enough.

[@hephep7426]

All of society these days seems to be pushing that we should focus only on ourselves. Me myself and I, you've got to do self-care. Even all these protests for all these outward causes are all just self glorifying, look at me I'm protesting this cause look at me I'm protesting that cause, rather than actually going out and doing something that will actively help the cause they are protesting. The only thing I see in this world that could actually be an active help in improving one's life self-esteem and also contributing to society for the grater good, is biblical christianity! All other religions focus on what I have to do to perhaps get rewarded in the afterlife. Christianity is the only religion that when you trust Christ for salvation you can focuses on doing good for others because you have already received the reward of of everlasting life because of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. This frees up the Christ follower to give to the world and bring them the same joy and hope and peace in their inner being that they received through trusting Christ for their salvation even though adversity still comes. But it also contributes to the well-being of the World as Christians donate most to charity, do the most adoptions and volunteer more than any other demographic. It's a win win if it is followed biblically!

[@hephep7426]

I think this gentle parenting comes from the now at least, last 3 generations of child neglect from parents that are single and have overused daycare! They feel guilty because deep down they know they should be raising their own children! To be fair I'm a single woman with no children but I have been raising children as a public school teacher for 30 years. I can absolutely pin point which parents are activly raising their children. Which children have intact loving homes. Which children are in daycare since diapers, which children have been disciplined and which children have been gently parented. The three responses I get from parents when there is a serious behaviour issue: 1.They're like that at home and I can't do anything, you deal with it. 2. They're not like that at home, you fault you deal with it 3. They defend their child to the death even though they their kid did it and there is plently of evidence. I don't really have any issures with kids from intact solid homes as the parents are so supportive of the teachers!!!

[@boing615]

37:20 Stella expressing some healthy cynicism about Sasha's motivations..... :D

[@Lightningb380]

Childhood PTSD is real. Sure, you can give some anecdotal examples where it may not be, but to the rest of us it’s quite insulting to insinuate it’s not real. I suffered way worse for years without having a label for it. I’m normally a big fan but this episode is kind of crap. I don’t appreciate you all laughing about it either.

[@cassiecoleman3584]

She wasn’t saying that child PTSD is not real. It was you don’t get it from being sent to your room. There’s a difference between real trauma and thinking that everything that makes a child unhappy is trauma. I’m sorry for your own childhood suffering.💛

[@ChrisUllman-xb5ji]

Love this episode! Abigail, you are funny because at the 28 minute mark all of sudden while “not giving advice” you were, and then your face betrayed your insecurity around your parenting. This is not a criticism, but an observation. When I broke my wrist as a child, my mother said, “Not now I’m on the phone.” The 3 of you are missing the impact of 1 and 2 children families on parents: everyone is hyper focused on these 1 or 2 kids and fearing they’re doing a bad/traumatizing parenting job and use the therapists to tag out for back up; especially if they’re single parents. When you’ve been the mother for multiple millennia to 5 children or more, there is a genetic band widening that happens on a mom’s attention abilities. When oral contraception comes along in the 60s and moms are now having 1 or 2 kids that attention has to go somewhere, so there’s a hyper vigilance, hyper consciousness that comes into play. Nobody can relax. When you have 6 kids (me and 5 siblings), mom wants you outta the house. “Don’t kill yourselves, and be home for dinner at dark.” Child psychology for children was easy: all the younger ones watched the older one. When she got in trouble we learned not to do that. Mom was perpetually annoyed. Why wouldn’t she? Want to fix the parental and child neurosis? Have 3 or more kids per family or live in a commune or kibbutz. Lastly, SEL should not be practiced in schools and teachers are not therapists; btw neither are parents. Did you ever wonder how children were raised before Freud? 😎

[@janebennetto5655]

❤🇬🇧

[@laurelvanwilligen9787]

Doctors order too many tests and prescribe WAY to many meds. (Most often because patients feel cheated if told something like "It's a virus, antibiotics won't help. OTCs, fluids, rest.") That's a known fact and is debated often, though not much has changed. Why would therapists be any different.

[@ruthhorowitz7625]

Bessel van Der Kolks book helped me immensely. Check out my book Living With Autism Undiagnosed. I'm not saying she doesn't have a point. In this interview she sounded very different from other interviews and she didn't spout her nonsense about autism. I'm so tired of everyone's bad ideas and thoughts on autism. Mainly from people who know nothing about it.

[@missanne2908]

I'm in the middle of reading _Bad Therapy_ and was struct when Ms. Shrier suggested that someone who had to reschedule conversations because of "migraines" (her quotes, not mine) or Lyme disease was actually suffering from hypochondriasis. Thank you Dr. Shrier for that diagnosis! I've never had Lyme disease, but with a history of migraines I wonder why she put the words in quotes. One common symptom of migraines is vomiting - would she actually want to interview someone who was vomiting, let alone expect them to make it to an interview? Other symptoms include light and sound sensitivity, and visual disturbances known as aura, as well horrifically painful headaches. There are physical causes for migraine - mine were estrogen dependent migraines that have lessened in intensity as I grew older. And although there have been medical breakthroughs in migraine therapy, not everyone's migraines are controlled by existing medications, or can afford expensive new migraine medications.

[@ruthhorowitz7625]

@@missanne2908 I get sensory 'migraines ' when I'm in autistic burnout. Doctors insisted there was nothing wrong with me. After I got the autism diagnosis I finally figured out what my migraines were.

[@AleeBay]

Working with children and trying to unwind gentle parenting is so hard. It's devastating to try to gently suggest some kids need more guidance and boundaries but they see you as just this ignorant person who hasn't read "all the studies" that say authoritative parenting will harm kids.

[@DogDocLou]

Those people are likely misconstruing authoritative parenting with authoritarian parenting but have convinced themselves gentle parenting is the only way.

[@zebrababy6267]

Jamaicans call each other “ugly” too and means something similar. Lol

[@suzheart4271]

It is simply not true that lesbian and gay kids face no disgust, rejection and hostility from their families.

[@MysticMom75]

True. But it seems the people most concerned about dangerous “phobic” parents are people in ver liberal areas where parents are least likely to be homophobic. So that is her point.

[@littleboots9800]

It is not the default though and its being treated, and communicated to kids, as if it is.

[@annemariegodden]

'Big 5' personality theory (OCEAN)... the sensitive souls are the N (neurotic) and predisposed to worry. It's innate. Good therapists should know their personality theory (?) and counsel people accordingly.

[@lifeonaplate]

Oh shit, you guys actually believe Abigail

[@skylinefever]

To me therapy was the same old motivational bullshit, with the gaslight effect added. To some degree you can blame your parents for life difficulty. They were the ones who chose to put you on Earth. Everything about you was fine when you did not exist. When did they get permission to make you?

[@kaleido9631]

I agree with Shrier in some ways, but she isn't really quite getting to the true crux of the problem either. She says "you can survive this" like that is the answer kids need to hear - when in actually i think we need to give kids a reason to survive in the first place. It's not enough to survive something if isnt worth it.

[@cherylewers6322]

What the hell happened to the art of family therapy? That used to be a big thing. Also, don't you think that what you're saying is that most everything suffers under digital compression? Would the term nonbinary be as much at the forefront of everyone's minds if so much wasn't now reduced to ones and zeros? By the way, I'll be honest, I think your show is a bespoke centrist tentacle, but it's got its moments. This was okay.

[@aceee4386]

Wow. I disagree with Abigail saying one shouldn't be giving parenting advice if they haven't raised good kids into successful adulthood. That's brutal LOL! Kids can have good lives, struggle as adults for a multitude of reasons such as socioeconomic etc etc. Her analysis is so reductive.

[@Ddddddddd885]

Yes agreed