What Holds People Back from Trying WoW PvP? - Bajheera Reacts ft. Venruki & Shields

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#WorldofWarcraft #WoW #Bajheera
Editor: Quaylin ( / @quaylin )

[@xxmaddcadderxx]

IMO the biggest issue when asking these types of questions, whther PvP or PvE, we get to hear from influencers such as Ven and yourself (or say Jack, Dratnos, Tettles, etc for PvE) who are already folks that play at the 'higher level'. The input from the 'casual' playerbase is usually relegated to polls and comments (no live input for discussion/conversation) so we don't really really get a feel for how these types of issues are interpreted from the other side.

[@BajheeraWoW]

I appreciate all the comments & viewpoints you guys share here, one of the main reasons I enjoy posting these types of videos!

[@PurpleDragonSpike]

​​@@BajheeraWoW just to chime in my own two cents- this is coming from someone who chooses PvP over PvE in every game ever. I personally enjoy the challenge of beating a human being rather than AI (though I totally concede AI can be tough at high difficulties etc, but you don't have to trick or "out think" AI the same way you do with a person. Anyway, compare this game to something like League of Legends, Valorant, or Dota etc: Wow PvP has a huge issue with lack of visual clarity, and the Dev's stance on it. it's not easy to play "out of the box". You need to have trackers for at the very least diminishing returns in the game to be on an even playing field and not just be severely handicapped. League of Legends doesn't have addons that let you track enemy cooldowns. Skill from the game comes from having to remember the cooldowns of abilities etc. In wow, the Dev's don't even put DRs in the game without an add-on, so what is their stance? IMHO, they (being the Devs I guess?) have developed the game around add-ons too much in the vein of tracking cooldowns and drs etc. I'd love if they just made big important cooldowns way more visually clear (DPS cooldowns, walls, etc) and actually took a hard stance on add-ons in PvP: Should DR's be something that people should have to approximate in their head? Is that why blizzard doesn't have them on the default frames? If yes, cool. Remove the ability for add-ons to scrape that info and let people have to be more mindful of the game. If no, then add what is arguably THE MOST important part to beginning PvP (understanding diminishing returns) to the default frames! Also you definitely do need bartender (or at least one of the add-ons that allows you to have the 'cast on keypress instead of release' because that isn't a part of default game options, which is a joke)

[@DekayVods]

@@BajheeraWoW this is a cool point tho, maybe it would be cool to interview casual players about why they don't play! :)

[@DjEphixa]

If you've ever been high level arena you just get players kick botting you, que sniping, or ddosing. If you've ever been middle of the pack in arena, you're going against multi-gladiators on their alt selling boosts. Blizzard doesn't know how to foster their competitive scene and doesn't care, most competitive & talented gamers go to other games. Also you're right, it's hard to find people to que up with. Also the point about the addons is huge, because a mid level player who refuses to use addons or macro's is just never going to catch up to another mid player who is addon crutching.

[@tmking90]

You are saying theres not many buttons while my whole keyboard is bound

[@UNKNOWNKID01]

Absolutely, you can definitely reach a rating like 1.8 without relying on 123 arena macros and similar tools. However, if you're aiming for higher ratings, incorporating these advanced techniques can be crucial. They help you react faster to your opponents' actions, which becomes increasingly important as you face more skilled players.

[@grudrop3384]

and in pve you don't even use all of those skills, nor is the reaction time at which you have to use them the same.

[@paradiseprod6153]

@@UNKNOWNKID01 yea tbh id say the most important thing you at least need is target focus macros for ccs and interrupts, that alone is a game changer. Once you get past that alot of new very casual players dont want to watch vids to set up their macros and UI while also trying to learn the game

[@Heldensocke-nh9cj]

@@UNKNOWNKID01I just reached 2100 solo without any 123 target macros as heal but my keyboard just doesn’t has the space for these anymore anyways 😂

[@Rangerthelonewolf]

I’ve gotten to 2200 without macros or special addons. People just need to learn the classes which isn’t hard just play them and get familiar with the spells tooltip and visuals. The rest just follows by playing. Some have it naturally than others to pick it up fast. Others have to work harder. Just the way it is.

[@byroncubides]

Hearing baj speak literally epitomizes why casual don't play and pvp is a dead game it's all the same old people with 30 different accounts

[@anttilaukkanen5733]

Casual does not want to watch videos and use loads of time to study game. Casual wantd to play when they have time. Content creators who play so much has very one sided view.

[@tythealkemist9856]

Mr. Bahjeera I sure hope you read this and respond. I'd love to hear. I’ve played since ‘05 Bajheera, I pvp' super casually (never been 1800+, honor level 31) here’s my response to your response to the video: Let me explain why the community when they say this is actually correct: There is 3/4 buttons you don’t take in the PVE spec, as they are pvp-oriented dps losses, +3 honor talents, which is 6/7 buttons and then I need 3 keybinds for each for each arena frame. That’s 24 keybinds which as many as I have in PVE. That I have to add in addition to my PvE keybinds. You’re not understanding some of the points because you’re too big brained bud. That’s extreme button bloat. This is complexity, and a high barrier to entry. A lot of these extra buttons are CC. Which all relate to the opening bullet points of the video. Retail CC feels worse cause every class has twice they did in vanilla. Warrior in vanilla had a fear, stun, and root. Now a warrior has a fear, serveral slows, 2 stuns, and 2 roots,. As an Evoker I need to take: Nullifying Shroud, Sleep Walk, Cauterizing Flame, Unravel, Oppressing Roar, Time Stop and/or Chrono Loop,. That's 6/7 buttons I need to keybind, that aren't normal keybinds. TimeStop/Chrono Loop needing 3 dedicated buttons each, or 6 if I take them both and do 3v3 area/Solo Shuffle. I need to add therefore 12 buttons to my already 32keybinds. Which means I need to have memorized 44 distinct buttons. That's way too much. This is where Asmon's "10 ability" thing came from. 30 buttons is a nice amount for what someone should be expected to manage, not 45/50spells. To someone who’s Glad it’s simple: get the add on, pay attention and learn, and now you're a Gladiator To someone who’s getting into PvP: that’s a gun and bullet to the temple with the trigger already receiving tension Do you view 12 extra keybinds as too much or not? I don’t have a solution, but I do agree that this is A problem

[@kokainkalle]

"Warrior in vanilla had a fear, slow, and root." What root? Charge is a stun. Charge rapidly moves the warrior towards a target, stuns it, and generates Rage.

[@mis8866]

The reason why you have never gone past 1800 isn't because of the amount of buttons. Its your skill. The reason why people dont play pvp, is because it isn't a brainless activity to do like PVE.

[@riggs871]

@@mis8866amount of buttons correlates to skill doesn’t it?

[@Thunder4o]

@@mis8866 But its so hard for Casuals/PvE players to admit that,especially the ones that play from long time.If they admit it they will pretty much say they are bad at something they put alot of time.Which kinda shows what type of humans they are overall.

[@Arntor-kf9hi]

Warrior is the best design, as close to perfect as WoW has. Considering going back to maining Warrior for TWW. Told myself if I got a 225lbs bench before TWW launch I'll main it, as motivation. Hit a 200 for a rep three weeks ago and made big gains since so going to try this coming week for that 225. Started lifting August 1st 2023 and want to hit a 225 within the first year.

[@mehmetozturk771]

I mean lots of players can just choose to ignore these issues but matching solo players vs premades in BG's where they are also outgeared since they are the only means to get geared in pvp, a real barrier of entry and they get farmed there they quit.

[@shieldsftw]

No way another wow legend is reacting to my video! Amazing!

[@Vaelorth]

gave you my sub gamer good luck to you

[@shieldsftw]

@@Vaelorth Thanks a lot!

[@LookinUp_]

I've been playing since wrath. TWW season 1 I am trying to earn my first elite pvp set through the new Blitz. I think the hardest thing is the skill of the other players is so great that it feels hard to get better. It's very intense. It's not just learning a fight and being ready for the mechanics like PvE. You have to learn the other classes and try to anticipate the other players. It's all so fast too. So, for me personally, that makes it very difficult. It also doesn't help that if you get DC you lose 200 rating and 200 MMR, which happened to me. I was still having fun, but after that now I just want to get to 1800 and be done. Holding my breath every game hoping the server doesn't go down again. Ven said 20-25 spells is fine. That is a lot of spells... LOL In PvE I will intentionally try to keep my buttons to around 8-10 not including niche spells. I am a player that does not play high end. The hardest thing I probably do is heroic raid and I only do that the final season to earn the AOTC mount. PvP "for me" lol, feels like a LFR raider vs a Mythic raider. I agree with all the points the players mentioned. Hearing the point by the pvpers basically saying "nah it's fine" doesn't help anything or change anyone's mind.

[@hiimbiggz4844]

as a new player thats really just started getting into the game the biggest frustration i personally have had is sitting in que forever then when i finally get into a match i get insta dunked on by someone thats 2k+ rated on their main before i even have a chance to know what happend coming from LoL 1 i dont have to level a character which i can do pretty fast now becuse ive played them all to see what i like 2 i dont need to gear 3 every champ has 4 buttons 5 im in que for maybe 2 mins max so if i do get destroyed we just go next and finaly there are no addons everyone has the same information available at all times and im not saying i hate addons but as a new player ive watched alot of videos and people will say get X addon then i have to go find a video to learn how to set said addon up properly to get what i want from it

[@mrgamers74]

I used to play PVP and had a lot of fun, but personnaly, my biggest problem is finding people to play with. SoloQ takes ages to find a game and using LFG for 2s or 3s is just a pain in the ass. I just don't have the strengh anymore to bother with that, so I stopped... This is sad cause I really like PVP in wow

[@dondada4L]

I’m a new player in wow, been playing since 2019. I’ve always wanted to play wow but couldn’t afford in the 2004 years. I’m a natural pvp player in other games so I tried bgs and honestly it wasn’t bad. I’ve never done retail pvp just because I feel I’ll be out classed. And knowing you’ll team with others who been playing for years I just don’t want to be the weak link or the reason we lose.

[@Jaykerh9]

I am brand new to wow pvp. I am also fairly new to wow. Today was my third day. What I can tell you is 2 things: it is fun and it is also a nightmare. The gameplay is truly engaging. I love how it takes alot of knowledge and understanding of not just my own class but also every other class. It is genuinely really fun. It's also a nightmare because the addons make this experience absolutely terrible. I'm already committed to learning every class and compositions and what not. But learning these addons is absolutely absurd. I can easily see how new players will give up the desire to get into pvp because the addons is a headache that is just too damn confusing.

[@SYLXM]

Skill Capped created a one-button install UI for PvP that I suggest to everyone who wants to try PvP. It's a fantastic starting point. I'd highly recommend you try it.

[@grantx6]

Don't feel rushed to jump into the arena, take it easy. Try out some BGS on different specs. Familiarize yourself with a class rotation, try out different abilities. So many layers pvp, can't take them all on at once 😁🤙🏼

[@Ophiie13]

@@SYLXM While this is incredibly helpful for newer players, I think the idea should be how to make it not necessary to do this. I think Blizz need to take the best of the common addons and build it into the game UI by default and break the ability to use addons

[@SYLXM]

@@Ophiie13 I agree with you, but that doesn't really help the person I replied to.

[@RedRagedRooster]

Love Baj, and i laughed abit when he said "just set the DR to show your ability on Gladeus" which just brings us into the requirement of 3rd party stuff...

[@Awood2207]

For me what holds me back is the lack of knowledge for each class (which is why I have one of each class) and knowing when and what to push for certain situations, not to mention learning my keybinds and macros. My reaction time has been slower b/c i'm 33 and no spring chicken anymore, but that doesn't keep me from trying to play either. Plus my lack of skill in pvp will cause the team to not win as well.

[@Xeanowos]

Wow PVP is just boring and frustrating. Too much cc, Too much gear dependency, Too add-on dependent. The list goes on.

[@MatteKalista]

healers never going oom. big problem.

[@Thunder4o]

Nope,you just dont understand it how it plays and you are bad at it,it isnt hard to admit it.But intead you trash talk something that you dont understand.

[@SQLdb]

I get the same feedback from my irl friends who started wow in the past year and only enjoy pve. - PVP is too complicated we do not understand what is going on - Too many buttons to keep track of And most felt overwhelmed with the amount of addons required and needed to be utilized for them to improve.

[@ionlybluffAA]

i think bgs should have an ilvl requirement like dungeons... youre obviously not going to win against a team with full pvp gear... some people have no choice but to start somewhere and not have to worry about someone literally one shotting you. This makes it harder to gear and really time consuming... Just my opinion.

[@dapperdan51]

The community.... gatekept anywhere near the 1200 rating. 1st week of shadowlands arena drop i tried to do 3s as a ret pally. Everyone was asking for last expansion rating. I get the push for gladiator but bro the 1st week?

[@George-gv4ij]

Hey Bajheera! First off, excellent content and I hope you continue to do these types of videos and release content for WoW. I’m a huge fan and have been in one of your montage videos a few years ago getting stomped out by you lol. My experience runs deep in WoW first playing back in 2006. I have done both PvE and PvP over the years with PvP being my favorite. I raided in BC and hit challenger in 3s back then. I mythic raided multiple expansions and finally reached duelist season 4 in Dragonflight. I’m 36 now and have to play casually to a degree. Button bloat is real compared to PvE. PvE, I only need one key one for a stun, fear, trap, etc while in PvP, I need arena 123 macros if I’m doing 3s or even solo shuffle. This means that as a mage, I need poly 123, and should have counter spell 123 (which I don’t do). I get criticized by my brother for not binding my kicks like that but I make it work and have made it work for many years. Other players would disagree and tell me what I’m doing is not optimal which I even agree with. Some classes and specs have multiple types of cc so they may have more or less macros than others. A warrior for instance not only needs arena 123 macros, but may need party 12 macros for intervene. This is only scratching the service but I assume you get my point. The complexity comes from a lack of knowing every class, their cc and their own capabilities along with this micro cc we have now like a monks ring of peace or a Druids vortex. Adding these to the game helps those classes but also makes things much more complicated for the more casual players. This leads into a higher barrier to entry. Having to know the ins and outs of every class can take a while to understand, especially if you try to stick to one class. I have leveled many alts over the years and with this new expansion, I had to play an Evoker to even comprehend some of their abilities. I paid for a boost, transferred over honor to gear in greens, but because how late into the season it was, I would get stomped in all kinds of content I tried to partake in. Whether it was random BGs or arena. If it wasn’t for my bro who carried my Evoker to get the 528 ilvl gear, I wouldn’t have lasted. I finally installed SkillCapped’s addon and have been able to climb to 2100 on my rogue because it made my ui and all of the recommended addons to spots that make sense and help me acknowledge them while not overloading my senses. Now I’m not autistic but I sure do feel like it when I start to complain about the sensory overload that many of the addons give me. Dragonflight is not the same as it was in classic, it’s much harder to tell when someone has used a defensive. Yes, we still have defensives like ice block, die by the sword, and a hunters turtle, but not many others are clearly visible. Overall, if I was a new player, battlegrounds can be so toxic, especially if you are the undergeared healer as your team gets steamrolled. The discouragement from teammates sucks but if you’re able to ignore it, getting conquest gear is much harder from only doing random BGs. You have to do arena in some form in order to get the gear efficiently and that can be even harder if you don’t dedicate hours upon hours to learn how some classes operate.

[@ThyFleshConsumed]

Off topic, but has Baj made any Cata classic fury of arms videos? It's the reason why I subbed in the first place.

[@RedRagedRooster]

Good ole "GET SHIT ON" with the fist weapon claws..memories

[@Ychazz]

Bajheera doesn't PvP he streams PvP and plays. He doesn't LFG and doesn't know what it means to work towards glad. His name brings good plays to play with him so they can boost their own views. If you're getting paid to PvP in WoW then you're no longer with those who actually PvP.

[@ivenslaercio6474]

The dude play Warrior for like 10years or more,didnt u think his not Very skilled for achiev Glad since mop?

[@MatteKalista]

@@ivenslaercio6474 some people are so delusional man. i have 20+ years of pvp experience and people still say it doesnt matter. ofc it matters. if you just focus on one thing you will get experienced in that topic just like real life stuff. lets say you're a brick layer for 20 years ofc you will lay bricks better than someone who did it for like 2 years.

[@Blood_Ronin]

31:09 This is so true. I took a break from a little bit at the start of S4. Came back at 2300 MMR and got completely demolished. Good kicks, stuns ect, I was just out damaged by a good amount despite playing well. That being said though, only took about 2 weeks to catch up in gear and could have done sooner if I played more. The grind sucks for that duration, but once you catch up it is a non issue in terms of feeling bad about gear vs not.

[@Arntor-kf9hi]

I used to PvP a lot but stopped late wod and dropped entirely in legion. I've been tempted to get back into it in DF but honestly it's the gear for me. It isn't clear to me how you go about getting tier sets for PvP outside of a catalyst. Also I've always enjoyed BGs and never liked arenas. If they made it a bit more clear on how to gear and it didn't create such a massive power disparity for those with and without and then made BGs more important id be all in.

[@BajheeraWoW]

PvP Tier comes from weekly vault or Catalyst yep! This vid may help you out too! - kzbin.info/www/bejne/kGmknZp9fqmIm80

[@lapio8222]

Its literally more simple than gearing in PvE

[@christopherfaulkner5821]

I understand it can be overwhelming to new players in regards to the complexity, and the amount of buttons, understanding the classes and abilities etc. The problem is that is exactly what sets WoW pvp apart from other, more simple pvp games, and IMO, what makes it challenging and rewarding to master. That being said, I do think complexity for complexity sake isn't good, and button bloat, ability bloat should always have an eye kept on it.

[@Sifujohns]

I think rewards for pvp is a huge problem. Not very many rewards and the really good rewards are crazy hard to get.

[@MatteKalista]

yeah retail just loves to waste your time and not very rewarding.

[@krackenagate5606]

I dont play arena because i dont want to be yelled at by my teammates. Im trying to learn but they just rage at me.

[@MatteKalista]

ppl are crying in unranked arena games? just shows they arent as good as they think.

[@MatteKalista]

unranked arena games are made for practice.

[@Jotakyy]

I have not gotten any flame since I started some weeks ago, and im a dead weight usually lol

[@bluntedsage]

gear is more annoying to get if your starting and losing even with quests

[@benkelly7182]

I really liked your take about no gear difference in pvp. You expressed what you like or don’t like but also admitted there are other considerations. I’d like to see it as at least an option, it’s something I really liked about games in the past like first person shooters that had no player power increases, but I really can appreciate your view and the idea that it’s an MMO and getting beefy and smashing is what some people love.

[@ruzzellcrowe9352]

they had this in legion - where eveyone basically had basic stats due to their gear level - and the best gear level gave like 15% better stats. Xaryu and all these other pvp players complained because they couldn't solo 2 or 3 players anymore like they used to. Mosts people don't pvp because it's too hard to find teammates to play with. pvp is simply too toxic.

[@benkelly7182]

@@ruzzellcrowe9352 don’t disagree with a single thing you said there

[@benkelly7182]

@@ruzzellcrowe9352 I’m a Jiu Jitsu black belt and I think there are similarities between wow and JJ that are worth sharing. Both are very challenging and complex, have PvP, and have an element of community and relying on training partners. What differs vastly other than the obvious is that in martial arts you have a coach, many wow players don’t seek out coaching even from videos, and then the related problem here of having a toxic community that you mentioned. Most Jiu Jitsu schools have a very welcoming atmosphere and this is for a variety of reasons but one is to make up for how bad it is to be new at it and suck. You’re 100% right calling out the culture. Many players don’t have or want to utilize their basic social skills and/or they maybe aren’t that good at coaching. A Jiu Jitsu room with no coach would not be ideal but it can work in a lot of ways, but a room with no coach that’s full of A holes is a recipe for obvious disaster.

[@nemek2082]

I'm a PvE player doing CE, Ksm etc and getting some elite sets when they look nice. There's a LOT more keybinds than in PvE it's not even close, even in PvE my 3 bars are full on some specs already let alone adding 10+ more for pvp. I will prob like 8v8 BG. CC is indeed cancer, especially playing a caster and getting trained just makes me want to not play again. I'm permanently getting interrupted, cc'ed, spell locked you name it, and that's the reason I Prefer BG's over Arena, I can actually play the game... Playing a melee in Arena is a blessing in comparison for any unexperienced player, but I hate melees and like ranged so I end up hating Arena for that reason. With the addons adding clutter to the ui, the amount of buttons and abilities every classes have, even just looking at my screen in a 3v3 I can't understand what is going on, too much happens all at once it's impossible or take SO MUCH patience to get into nowadays. So I just do dmg, throw cc randomly at the healer, and get 1800 then quit and never touch it again. Been working fine for me and it's a period of pain I'm ok going through to get the Tmog sets. but nothing more. If I want to play PvP I'll go play a game designed for PvP like LoL or CS etc. imo WoW pvp in this state is not going to do well in the future.

[@Rubyhunter1]

This is 100% true, too low cooldowns on cooldowns and ccs that got no idea whats happening 40% of the time. I do same 1.8k and then out of that cancer show

[@VargThorsolf1114]

For myself, I'm a casual at best: I don't believe too many buttons is an issue. I believe the biggest is the flow of battle / pacing / timing of when and what is peeling ? Target Swaps / Macro setups. Things that a lot of higher skilled players have. Perhaps another issue is that in lower brackets, I think it can be hard to gain traction. Perhaps also, not having a dedicated group that you trust and enjoy doing the content with.

[@rosemorningstar5368]

Content creators need to just start interviewing people hanging around Vald about these questions to get a better idea of the ‘casual’ player base and what their personal barriers are.

[@wooptidoo3525]

31:26 - but you ve been saying in all these videos that gear is so easy and fast to get that it's a non issue. Why do you bring it up now to support your case?

[@BajheeraWoW]

This was probably the very beginning of his attempts to start gearing, but still had high MMR so it was tough. Was citing it as an example that you might not want full MMR carryover to a new alt.

[@wooptidoo3525]

@@BajheeraWoW gotcha. Probably some leaway should be there as the video said. For example 2k rated starts at 1.7k account-wide or sth like that, to counter this problem you experienced

[@zardeth9591]

Back in MoP PVEers did not like that they had to pvp to get the legendary cloak. So to me that says is that if conquest gear was equal to mythic raiding gear, then no one can complain. There is a way for both PVEers and PVPers to get on the same playing field doing the content they want to do. And if they want to dip their toes in the other content, they can

[@JLGNieuwenhof]

1. Second "c" slot for pvp gear (lower ilvl than pve gear, but usuable in slot 1) 2. No PvE items are allowed in the arena/bg's, visit said arena master for a full starter pvp set (impl. pvp introduction quest mayb) 3. Starter set will have fixed stats and ilvl, gaining rating in RBG/Arena will ultimately only upgrade the gear visually 4. Allow people to freely manage the secondary stats, not requiring any rating but allow tinkering to certain specifics (statmorg guy could be implemented) You now have a completely separate inventory slot for PvP, equal gear that is limited but customizable in a way to fit certain specific builds. Problem; stat specifics per class differ which makes it almost impossible to balance this correctly ADHD goes wroom wroom, sorry :)

[@Zutang777]

With the MMR suggested in the video. you can also have warband gear you can buy with your main to give to your alts.

[@jackwesterkamp7007]

Just rolled a solo arena match just to try it out. I told my arena partners im new to the scene and that i normally pved. I immidiatly got scolded at and they told me they where going to report me. Never touching that mode again.

[@janeames1513]

reported for playing the game?..yeah..blizzard will just trash that report

[@avirian6589]

I can say that 90% of my friends (that PVE only) they DO say that there are "more buttons & button bloat" which I would agree with somewhat. Like you'll probably have 2-3 more keybinds, which if I'm playing on my Shaman for example, I have a hard time fitting those keybinds in. And I HATED the templates in Legion, zero feeling of progression. It literally takes like 3 days to get full honor gear, and you can buy the crafted PVP gear in the meantime to get there.

[@insidethedeck]

I think PvP progression needs to feel like PvE progression. I am not sure what to do to achieve that, but I think that should be the goal of WOW PvP.

[@deejkeithanmusic]

Long queue times, rating deflation, and the rival bracket is entirely rank 1 alts.

[@george8920]

the MAIN thing you not mentioning is " LATENCY " - how fair is it for someone in South Africa playing with a ping of 250ms against someone in France or london with a Ping of 10 ms ??

[@Sundagar]

Mythic raider here with CE in every DF season (just to hit on Bahjeeras' comments early in the vid): I see like 5 macros for the same ability and wonder how I'm going to have enough binds. Not mandatory, but incredibly useful to have ~3 macros for key abilities to reduce reaction time. I'm already crowded on binds as is in PvE but PvP takes it to another level. Second, I tried PvP in every season of DF (BG's / Solo Shuff). BG's were okay, except most games were stomps for one team. Solo Shuffle felt like a mess, tens of abilities going off all the time. Felt difficult to slowly ease into the experience. Trying a new spec resulted in getting totally shitblasted + flamed by usually one person in the lobby for ''throwing'' or ''ruining their match''. The entry experience to ranked versions of PvP just feels very overwhelming and not all that welcoming (this though is largely an issue in all WoW content). I'm sure the experience can be improved doing rated PvP in a group. Nobody in my friend circle/guild PvP's even casually though and going out to look for new people just to PvP with does not interest me (I have my friend groups who I play this game with). Ultimately with how the experience feels, it doesn't invite me personally to invest even remotely the same time that I invest in PvE.

[@dahboup]

I think the biggest issue is imbalance. Season 4 DF is obviously the season of the marks hunter, demon hunter, assassin rogue, and healer priest. Those classes all have insane mobility, insane survivability, and insane damage/healing at the same time in AH pvp gear. I know the meta rotates, but if they could balance it somehow it would make it much more enjoyable for people.

[@ifkdatherogue9852]

I recently play DF (for the last month, after quitting after TBC, so huge break but have played SOD etc).... I really enjoy retail pvp, i climbed to 2k after 3-4 weeks of playing and love how it feels, there is huge barriers to entry though imo - for example if you were to want to start pvp in wow from another game, youre gonna have to level up from scratch, learn your own hero, learn every other hero, get gear etc, thats fooking long. They could make it so that you can queue arena at level 1, sign up spec / class and it would just queue you with pre done gear appropriate or you could customise it.

[@pawekardas2284]

Really appreaciate your commentary video. Im rather casual wow player which means i got only abot 2-3 hours time for playing and not every day in a week. I like to progress stroy, do mythic+, LFR, doing some fun stuff with friends buy most of all i love PVP. It was really eazy to back in to seazon 4 after 1 year break. In about 2 weeks i was able to suit myself up to full set conquest set and now i actually making some stuff from BS and upgrading gear. I have to say that one of your video with overwieving your talnet, build, rotation, items, etc. for seazon 4 was great briefing especially for warrior. But the point is that im not able to beat rank higher than 1800 im balancing 1800 +/- 50 (like in last seazon). I think this is the barrier in wow rated pvp (for noobs xd) when you need to really learn what are addon for, ex. gladiusEx, what is DR tracking that you mention in this video, and many more which i hope you will let us know in the future ;). I know about some mechanics about PVP but its rather like i know there is something like DR, CC groups , i know how it work. I know some basics but i have no idea how to use it to secure kill and where and for what to look in gladius during fight + for example addon BigDebuffs shows normally ALL buffs/debuffs, and in my case i really need to dive into settings to set up someway which enemy buffs/debuffs are really important as you mentioned in video - Big Offensive and Big Deffensive). All this things starts to get little bit frustrating, because im more frequently getting smashed by people that know how to properly use that mechanics. And im sure at this point there is a lot of casual players like me who know about that stuff but just dont have time for learning. And on youtube there is really plenty of videos/guides/tutiroail how to set up addons, people trying to explain mechanics but men... I don't get anything. But.. Thanks to you i allready know how to really track DR (+ some wowhead reaserch) and how to use it with my main charracter (you gave brilliant example how to use GladiusEx without knowing all the spells). Its really that simple for warrior i guess. I only need to set up gladius Ex to show DR for Disorients and stun and for better performance set up spell icon approetrly for intimidating shout and strom bolt. Hope for more content with explanations some PVP mechanics that really can improve my time during PVP. You explain really well, gg :) ... and wonder if any of you guys struggling with same stuff. Maybe you can let some tips, what are the really key mechanics that noob pvper should know for ex. how DR works and how to use it - with gladiusEx, that what we have learnd from this video ;)

[@iv9ry]

While I think that the gearing Shields recommends could be more beneficial in finding new players and finding that perfect class for you, I also agree with Bajheera that it doesn't feel as good as grinding it out it's a huge aspect of MMOs and it's more less just ripping the progression out on a coin toss more people will play, not to mention the fotm reroll abuse.

[@anthonyfaiell3263]

5:35. Maybe... I know a demon hunter who has been 2500 in solo shuffle every season since it came out who still has no clue what most other classes do.

[@PointToBlank89]

The thing with premades is absoultely destroying the queue and the game. RBG is where most casual players will go to try out PVP. What they will meet 80 % of the time (at least in Europe) is premades with absolute BIS gear, abusing potions and coordinating. Take in consideration that to actually progress you need to win - otherwise you get meaningless amount of honor (not to mention cp). It's in a really, really bad spot right now, to the point where no one wants to join anymore as it is completely pointless. There should be 2 tiers of RBG - Wild stuff and one where there's at least a semblance of matchamking/checking for gear (not just brawl). I tried to get 4 friends who were PVErs into PVP through BGs (cuz they find them interesting). We lost 7 games in a row where we were capped at the gy by premades. After that? They don't want to get anywhere near PVP. So, those premades, in my opinion, coming from someone who does play PVP mostly is an absolutely monumental problem if you want to attract more folks to PVP. Just my 2 cents.

[@Arntor-kf9hi]

As far as the cosmetics go, this might be controversial at first but give it a thought before burning it down. Make the elite pvp set a reward for the end of the seasonal renown track and make the 1800 unlock the aura unlock, similar to how M+ works. For example I run a lot of M+ and I can get the full mythic raid transmog by just farming out my gear. Either getting Myth track drops from an 8 or fully upgrading my hero track gear earned from any level of keystone and at 2500 rating I get the Keystone achievement and unlock a special version of all the raid tier sets with an aura that improves the set and signifies I've done it. I think this system works very well and would translate well to PvP and a renown track reward system each season. I'd play the fuck out of pvp if that were the case.

[@stephenswinehart]

Want to say I always love your positive perspective, that hard work produces rewards, and when I came back to wow during wod your videos really got me hyped to play warrior again, thank you! I think the issue with casual/pve-focused players and pvp is more that it's not something they can commit a small amount of time to and produce similar gains as opposed to pve. I fully agree that not being afraid might be a big part of it, but if it's thought of more as a choice between spending their time on pvp or pve, they'll likely choose the latter because of the points listed in the video. Having said that, I am definitely a casual player these days and literally wouldn't play this game without pvp. I have no interest in the other portions of the game at all. I'm just not sure how many people there are like me who would keep playing a game like this for the pvp content it gives vs playing other games. Just some thoughts.

[@nizze5461]

Addons and macros. also to many buttons

[@Dryzual]

I get there are bad apples in pve too but man, pvp players are some of the sweatiest unhinged psychopaths ive ever had the displeasure of interacting with. Scary stuff.

[@MatteKalista]

i thought so too until i started commenting on youtube. and im dealing with toxic assholes on a daily basis in wow. KZbin is actually a bigger cesspool. the reason youtube is more toxic is because u cant block people on youtube.

[@sapotapo8423]

my friend and i used to do arenas bgs together all the time. but when asked what he enjoys more, he said pve. so i am guessing, even if people go into pvp they still will hate pvp

[@Quiuboquemas]

Bajheera, I propose you a dream, what if below 2000 you don’t lose rating, it doesn’t matter how many battles you lose. Too high? Ok 1800, casual ppl hates lose rating, I’m one of those…

[@captaincooool]

You use way more buttons in pvp than pve, especially as a dps where you're stuck to your rotation. You don't use half your spellbook when you're raiding

[@Supermantmr2201]

It's not really about easy games when it comes to the matchmaking complaints it's just simple that there should be a ceiling for the rating gap that can occur in a game because people within a certain rating bracket are closer and skill and there is a higher probability of winning in those scenarios against people who might be better than you but not to the extend that they are +500-1000 rating higher than you.

[@boopylongbottoms8303]

Also I think CC should have like 2 per class and massively increase cooldowns only in pvp so they have to be used more wisely no one should be stunlocked

[@ksherman51]

the reality is the button count is a huge issue. most of that comes from the need for modifiers, changing your focus target and focus target kicks, cc, etc. Feeling like you need a fully bound mmo mouse just to get setup is not ideal. Competitive games dont need complexity to that level, some of the most competitive games in the world are far simpler but still generate high ceiling skill caps other ways. In old expansions maybe cata>legion I could watch arena even if i was on a wow break and understand 90% of what was going on. Now? I can be actively subbed and playing and not understand half of the stuff some of these classes are throwing out there. It's just gone way too far and sure when you master it, it probably feels amazing but dont expect a large playerbase to find interest in starting the journey of getting where you are when the floor feels so insanely far from the ceiling.

[@JebesNikove]

People who play pve at mythic lvl are almost as rare as people who pvp. Casuals fuel mmos and blizz often forgets that.

[@StephenWilliamson-j5u]

I joined Sargeras! Spriest already geared rdy to destroy!

[@TheDailyQuest]

Give healers a separate/additional seasonal battle pass track - with a mount and a recolour of the elite pvp set. Solo shuffle healer problem solved.

[@andrewlatil9614]

Gotta agree with the Ruki here. The rotations are bloated and there are abilities that only ramp damage during a burst phase that you'll end up just slapping into a macro.....so why are they there? Ramping damage abilities (maybe 1 is fine...think Arcane Power for mage), but for shit like Thistle Tea/Symbols on a rogue.....just....why? Also, the metric fuck ton of CC is insane. It needs pruning. Mind you, I'm not saying others are wrong if they believe the current classes are fine; we all get an opinion on it and I'm glad you're happy. I'm just not able to keep up with the bloat anymore.

[@DekayVods]

I think to me the problem is the accessibility; I have grind to the right i lvl which isnt really a huge issue imo but it's kinda just another thing to do. The big problem is now that ive gotten my honor gear now I have to go find people to play with. It's so absurd how far behind the curve wow is in terms of how lfg and qeueing works in this game. Like you expect me to find a healer that wants to play with an untested, unrated player who has always wanted to play the game but never has someone to actually play with. ESPECIALLY healers since there are so few to go around. For me this is a huge issue cus im an introvert big time. I don't like trying to constantly meet new people.

[@Unoso95]

Only issue I have with CC is all the passive slows frost mage specifically

[@Mvx85]

what is DR some reduction?

[@reptiliancow]

For a warrior its maybe ok for buttons. Enh shaman is out of control. I dont have buttons left for all the stupid arena target macros.

[@Relhio]

I wanted to shoot myself when playing Survival Hunter in PvE, I basically had no more button combinations I could reliably press for macros or PvP abilities.

[@benkelly7182]

@@Relhiogaming mouse?

[@zellutzen8429]

@Bajheera easy way to fix Wow PVP is to make every class have just 8 spells a few classes have stuns, dont have many heals and tanks be a thing so people can just die so if you que for a PVP thing tanks are just a little tankie dps and healers just have one heal spell and the rest dps and some def spells, As well as have a combo of Smaller maps with 5v5 objective games and medium maps with the same 5v5 objective games just add a little spicy like map hazards and buffs around the map.

[@frozenwrath362]

What rating would you be able to reach WITHOUT using any addons ? The only ''addon'' you'll be able to use is your knowledge of the game...

[@BajheeraWoW]

Would be a fun experiment! :D

[@JB-rb3jk]

The depth of wow made me love the game. Ive loved wow since 09. People that complain about wow should go play bejeweled or Farmville. No matter how perfect something can be, someone, somewhere will complain.

[@TheGraveyarder]

i think the rating or rank system feels kinda weird i remember trying ranked once for the first time and theres like 1.4k cr ranked players in my placement matches and feel like im not good enough to be matched against those people wheres like the bronze or silver bracket?

[@lapio8222]

1.4k is really low. And if you lose those games you will go down fast and be matched with worse and worse players. Its a pretty standard mmr system

[@cenciqt6045]

1.4k is the low silver of wow

[@cenciqt6045]

& this is a problem that blizzard has with keeping the cr number standard from season season Starter mmr right now is like 1900

[@Black666Metal]

what will solve the problem in my opinion... do bg's matchmaking with less or no healers available ;)

[@BC_Joshie]

In my opinion i think the PvP is just stained by how long it took them to add Solo Q's. i remember myself i used to play and want to get into pvp, i'd grind gear learn it watch videos and guides etc etc, and ultimately end up quitting because nobody wanted to play with someone who hasn't already got all the achievement's, and ratings, It leaves a bad taste. I did come back and did get into it with Solo Q's and im having fun but i feel i'm the minority and most people don't care anymore, and we know wow doesn't get much new players compared to other games.

[@cloud132456]

Hearing you say that WoD pvp with the prune was the least interesting, but from all of my friends and many others I've talked to over the years that played since then have said they had some of the best pvp fun they've ever had in WoD. Even me who normally doesn't even engage with pvp outside of friends dragging me to it, I had fun playing pvp in WoD. As for Too much CC argument, my idea is more of too much, but don't remove it all. It felt much better back in the day dealing with a stun from a pally because you know that he doesn't have many other hard CCs. You didn't worry about a druid doing a root as a caster, until they decided to give them a beam of silence that they lock you in. It's not as fun to deal with too much, but outright removing CC also isn't healthy. Now granted, even back in the day some classes still had too much CC, like the mages in cata example, or just mages in early wow in general, rogues in classic/TBC, but most of the time people complained about them back then too, so nothing has really changed.

[@LeDotz]

i played much PvP in WoW, but most of the time i wouldn't que because i didn't want to lose against better players :D turns out, that most of the time it was fun and pretty good, even if i played like a shitbag sometimes

[@gathaspar2831]

I've been playing PvP a lot in TBC/WOTLK/Cata/MoP/WoD and I kind of stopped enjoying it somewhere around end of Legion and it's not been fun for me since then. I feel like I don't have control over my character most of the time being spammed with CC and I often just explode from 100% to 0% HP having no idea what just killed me. PvP has always been bursty, I understand that, but in earlier expansions I had more visibility of what's going on/what's about to happen. Today I engage, pop all my def CDs that help me survive for 3 seconds and then just die from random bullshit. I feel like there is little room for some tactical gameplay, reading your opponent and it's more about who can burst faster. And I've never used any addons for PvP, I refuse to make a mess out of my UI. I understand that addons help a lot but I've been able to play on mid level in earlier expansions without any addons and it was perfectly fine. I never reached 2.2K but still could play and have fun.

[@MatteKalista]

5-6 rotation abilities is good. not like arms warrior in mop where u had to bind like 30 abilities to your rotation 😂

[@iv9ry]

I don't think that you can learn anything playing vs. Glads in the 1600 bracket 😂, we aren't the same MMR their main is 2.6k and their alt is sitting in the 1.7-1.8k range, most times games dont even last long enough for you to really learn or adapt against people of that caliber.

[@kokainkalle]

And still cata feels better than retail....

[@DekayVods]

classic wow is SNOOOOZE

[@rattle701]

Bajheera I loved this video and the insight, but you were talking over Ven a little too much. A pause of the vid for comments would be great :)

[@Asmodeius]

there still problems. like you say, dont you want to play against to players to learn from them. problem here is that when skill gap is too big, you get owned without even knowing what hit you. when skill gap is too big you can learn shit,. if opponent is slightly stronger, than yeah, you can track you mistakes and etc. but 1500 mmr guy vs 2100. skill gap is insane, 1500 guy wont learn shit.

[@TRGoon]

Battle pass style like in plunderstorm would be nice! I think then more pve ppl would try it out.

[@benji0916]

Pvp and PVE UI setups are different. Just too annoying to go switch back n forth

[@gekkosoldier8278]

One thing that put's me off pvp is the skill balance issues so you will be fighting skilled players while learning it can make a player not want let your team down this could be due to a lack of player base the only solution could be adding Ai to the pool to increase player base or make PVP a free part of the game where you can play it without a subscription this could increase the player base to the pvp scene but also it could increase hacking like most free games I like about 6 skills to 8 skills is good the more passives so you can play the game more and do less tracking I do liked the change where if you got CC it would fall off fast the more they applied CC that was super good

[@retributionangel5078]

28:05 its exploitation The developers did not inted for full geared chars to go into low bracket and farm Noobs all day.. all week... all year They did not inted for premades with target assist farming BGs all day. F...in up 100s of players game time. Also you have people useing kickbot and dodge queing in unrated BGs. Being Good at PvP is a matter of haveing all the cheaty addongs + enough friends with Twinks that lose to you on demand. Its got nothing to do with skill! Ontop you have classes like pala that can just bubbel you blow all their CDs at the same time

[@boopylongbottoms8303]

Hey man thanks for opening me up to warrior and showing me how fun it is. Even tho your mostly alliance scum and my sworn enemy, I love the content and can’t help but learn from your game play :) jokes aside thanks Dawg!

[@bosssavage3325]

Problem is these comments from PvE players are all EXCUSES as to why they don’t play PvP. They don’t have problems learning the PvE encounters etc (lol some do and those are probably the ones talking in this forum thread) Imo, the true reason is they DO NOT want to directly LOSE vs another player.

[@russbakr]

See there you go - 9 addons you use just to pVp - the game is way to complicated - ADDONS .. you cant even pVp (and have a relatively high win ratio) without a third party system integration - the game is not pvp friendly at all

[@niravgandhi7821]

Buddy most people are casual gamers. We’re not all pro live streamers playing to make $$$.

[@BajheeraWoW]

Of course, pretty sure I said that in the video :D

[@Thedell999]

random and epic bgs should of been made cross faction a long time ago. Epic bgs are completely unplayable because of the premades. Something needs to be done.

[@BoneJovi456]

the only reason i dont pvp is because of targeting macros, i hate those, and i cant invest time to learn it.Otherwise i enjoy bgs.

[@CaughtColdBoxing]

Micro CC and every class has too many defensive cooldowns. PVP is boring for the majority of players

[@immodsr9348]

Remove pvp trinkets and extra pvp abilities. Let people get the same (type) gear from pvp as pve.

[@004947]

Tbh compare current pvp to bc,wrath,cata pvp, they were the last times I rly put anytime into pvp.

[@jlmccabe]

My disability keeps me from pvping, I can't use a mouse and keyboard so I only have use of 12 keybinds on my mouse

[@nazex2445]

I'm so sorry for you...

[@lapio8222]

If you can use a controller, there is a guy who is gladiator on controller with feral druid. Lmk and I can link you his guide on how to set it up, its pretty useful

[@jlmccabe]

@@lapio8222 nope I only have 1 working hand so no controllers

[@Rangerthelonewolf]

Honestly most people aren’t deep down competitive. Therefore any other reason falls under that. “To hard”, “to long”, “to complicated”. All excuses for simply not being competitive. Same for Ow. Which is a dumb down easy game. Fun but easy. Yet people are way to soft so when they’re doing comp and someone suggest to do something to help. They think their life is being attacked and turn toxic. They’re just soft people who don’t have a competitive cell in their body. But still play comp. Just stick to qp.

[@JL-od4ui]

Simple. MMO is not as popular as before with declining population due to not many new players incoming. This being said, it’s hard to appeal PvP, especially when predominant player base is old like yourself or Venruki. PvP system in WoW is archaic and not much has changed (2v2, 3v3, BG) thus old players have significantly higher advantage. Skill gap between new players vs. them is so big. If you’re arguing that “yeah you have to spend time and learn to get good at it”. Of course you can, but the question really is do people want to? New players ultimately gets down to 2 evaluation points. 1. Do I want to pay for package and $15 subscription to get my ass kicked until I get good at this game? 2. Should I just play other games out there that are equally fun and doesn’t cost as much and not stress out about getting “good”? Most people seem to choose 2 which is proven by earlier mentioned (not many new players in wow) it is just a natural trend of the game being 10+ years old. People change and there are so much better games that are out there. Baj and Ven and other wow PvP streamers…the way they are showing these kind of reaction (ex. Disagree with people saying there’s problem with so many buttons and cc’s) makes me think that they don’t quite understand or relate to what it means to be “new players”

[@profion85]

I never liked PvP in any MMO, for me MMO is only PvE content.

[@christophernixon7926]

Then go play solo games

[@jani14jani]

@@christophernixon7926 did you even read the comment you replied to?

[@profion85]

@@christophernixon7926MMO has two options dumb dumb, PvE and PvP. Go play with your dolls and I'll play any game I want to.

[@H41030v3rki110ny0u]

​@@profion85Third option: roleplaying

[@profion85]

@@H41030v3rki110ny0u correct 💯

[@85Hellkite]

I stopped in bfa... So I'ma behind but for me arena being the end game. I prefer objective pvp ie battlegrounds. Just a preference. Arenas to me are just wsg where ya fight mid. I might be in minority in this but I doubt I'm alone.

[@christianjones4497]

Hard to get gear. Most randoms and epics you have to go against so many premades. And its embarrasing to go into a skirmish or solo with no gear.

[@BajheeraWoW]

SUper easy to get gear, but you could also do World PvP stuff (especially the daily/weeklies!)