Magic Missile

[@BanditsKeep]

Oh man, I said the average damage was 3.5 it’s actually 4.5! So would 100% take down a “normal human”

[@hotdogthebarbarian]

Another good use for magic missile is as a guaranteed disruption against an enemy spellcaster.

[@BanditsKeep]

True

[@bartitsulab]

I use it for the same although... I like to let cantrips do the same with a save. Enemy MU is about to cast a somantic spell and you use the cantrip, yawn or sneeze etc. It makes a cool wizard duel possibilities even at low levels and is another cool cantrip use. 2e didn't use them alot but I had an early DM that rewarded innovations and loved that I would use cantrips to disrupt or complicate another caster. Effects determined by DM. Rewards creativity.

[@BanditsKeep]

@@bartitsulab These are the types of Cantrips I like

[@YeshuaAgapao]

Spellcaster disruption is a big deal in 1E and 2E. 3.5 and later did away with 'start casting on your turn', everyone else goes, then the spell goes off.

[@deeps2761]

Came to the comments to say the same thing, it was always the 'go to' spell when you came up against a spell caster, when they started going "abracadabra" you fired in a magic missile. I only played 1st and 2nd edition not basic but yeah, especially if your party MU had 2 or 3 1st level spells, magic missile was always one of them if they had it.

[@DarkHorseCom]

Daniel, great video. Being out of the game for so long I had no idea there were differences in Magic Missile and it's uses throughout the various editions of D&D. I just received my 1e DMG reprint and have the 1e PHB and MM coming this week. Talk about a scavenger hunt! All are NEW condition. It's like being a kid on Christmas morning. Thanks for kindling that longtime smoldering ember that was once a flame in my gaming youth. Very much appreciated!

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome, I went on that hunt myself, well worth having those books.

[@TheEldarGuy]

Oh yeah, the one vs many effect (Sleep, Light, for example) is the best choice for 1st Level. Magic Missile is a must have in AD&D 1st edition, because you get an extra missile every 2 levels. By 14th Level the Magic-user rolls for 7 missiles, there's a 10' radius. No saving throw and auto hit! AD&D demands the Magic-users to make their own scrolls and items, even spell research is encouraged. Again, thanks for the video, I like the easy way your explaining and exploring the rules.

[@BanditsKeep]

I’m not sure I agree they need MM at least not until they reach a higher level. AD&D though is a different setup as you can have many spells in your book

[@TheEldarGuy]

@@BanditsKeep Probably 5th Level you should have it in the book. I use minimum and maximum spells per level, meaning the PC has to be quite choosy about what goes in the book. [All about AD&D here, sorry, I know it's a little off topic really].

[@SusCalvin]

Sleep is pretty powerful, we've even lowered the amount of HD it sleeps in our game. I've only seen players with Sleep hesitate once. It was a large gang of 2HD goons, terribly beefy bodybuilders, the PCs were terribly disadvantaged with maybe three dudes and a dog. They figured their only chance was to Sleep every single one and weren't entirely sure they would do so.

[@deeps2761]

@@BanditsKeep I only played 1st and 2nd edition, not basic but when DM'ing I ended up going with giving MU characters 5-8 spells. They automatically got Read and Detect magic, they got to choose 2 that they had in their spell books then it was roll a D4 and roll percentiles until they filled up their next 1 - 4 spells (taking a note of those that they failed). I think MU's had it tough early so didn't grudge them a couple of first level spells they wanted (to be fair, one was usually MM because we played quite combat based games).

[@MrNetWraith]

Seeing all these well-made videos talking about OSR and 5e, I really wish I had the courage to make my own videos on D&D 4th edition.

[@BanditsKeep]

Go for it! I know 4e got a bunch of hate, but from what I've seen the system is pretty interesting, I'd watch some 4e vids for sure!

[@coolintruddle]

I've been watching your videos for months and just realized I hadn't yet subscribed. Sorry 'bout that. Cheers from rural Québec. I find it is more important to know how prevalent magic is in the world for b/x style of play than it is for 5e. In an AD&D game, I filled an entire village with awe with a simple light spell, but in a 5e one, magic was ubiquitous so the same trick did not work and we ended up in jail. Good times all around, though.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure, fun times are what’s important

[@Vasious8128]

Well said on magic missile And the points on Charm Perfect opportunity to get a henchman, taking the efforts to treat them like the friend they see you as from the magic and earn that friendship that lasts past the charm finally fades.

[@BanditsKeep]

Exactly - this is a good strategy I think that many players do not use - they “abuse” the charmed monster because they have the power, when’s little kindness would go a long way.

[@RoDaGrier]

An example of that is in the first Dragonlance novel.

[@Vasious8128]

@@RoDaGrier I forgot about the Gully Dwarf

[@bartitsulab]

Good points

[@TheSimpleMan454]

Magic missle has long been the "sidearm" for the party at our tables. It's a quick guaranteed little push of damage that can finish a combat encounter without expending more valuable resources. But as one Israel Wright is fond of saying "I carry a sidearm, but if I'm always having to resort to it, something big has gone pretty badly wrong." (I'm paraphrasing, as his language was a good deal more colorful and he ranted a bit longer.)

[@SentientSoup]

Excellent points, Daniel. Thank you for those insights. I have always liked the idea of the magic user keeping a charmed monster as a henchman. Good on you, sir.

[@BanditsKeep]

Yes, they can make some connections and get passed what would have been certain enemies if they they their cards right.

[@nickyhaller4530]

Your point about scrolls is spot on. I think they are an oft forgotten aspect of the game, but they are so important for magic-users!

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure!

[@RoDaGrier]

Hey DMs. Even if your party doesn't have a magic user or cleric give them lots of scrolls anyway. They can use them to hire NPCs or to bribe casters or sages in a town. It will make down time more interesting.

[@BanditsKeep]

Very good point!

[@RodBatten]

Been looking forward to this, thanks Daniel.

[@RodBatten]

Great points, Daniel. I don't usually encourage a player to choose Magic Missile for a first-level mage either because it's a single shot with pretty average damage. Sleep (the training version of Death spell) or Charm Person are much better choices. You mentioned a couple of times that the Magic User only knows a number of spells equal to their number of spells they can memorize, as per OSE/BX D&D rules. That makes your dislike of MM much more understandable. In Labyrinth Lord mages start with 2 first and one second level spell and can add spells from tutelage or spell scrolls. S&W allows a beginning MU to possibly start with all of the first level spells in their book. That doesn't make MM much better as a choice to memorize as a first level MU, but it's less dire than in BX/OSE where it takes up a (very limited) spellbook slot that could be something better.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool, let me know what you think!

[@maesemateo]

Cool video. This is how I do it: *Once casted, it lasts 1 turn *MU can use it at ANY TIME, including the enemies' turn. You can shoot it at the orc charging at you before they get to hit or at the rival MU as soon as they start casting if you want. I've read Frank Mentzner saying MM was intended to last even longer than a turn, so you can have the arrow(s) hovering over your head until you need them for several turns/hours.

[@Marcus-ki1en]

Love the advocacy for scrolls, add wands as well (may or may not be recharged). We have always thought of it as a 6 shooter or single shot pistol.

[@BanditsKeep]

Nice

[@mikem4432]

I am glad to see someone acknowledges that the best edition is the old school 1st or basic edition.

[@BanditsKeep]

It’s certainly my favorite

[@theroguegeneralhunter2206]

B/X is the only Original edition I have seen that does spellbooks this way. The White book might have, but I don't have that edition so I cannot speak to that. Both BECMI (My favorite edition) and the "Blue book" D&D cover spellbooks in different ways. I find I prefer the later Basic D&D system where you start with 2 spells and can add spells from scrolls (within limits) as you will. This creates a versatile toolbox of spells, but with the limiter of only a handful of castings per adventuring day. With that, MM is not so bad at low level. I would still take sleep if available 10 out of 10 times. BTW- a problem I have with sleep is that it caps out pretty fast while MM gets better over time. Great video! Keep it up!

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@jamesblack3586]

magic missile was always on my B list of first level spells Always start with either light or charm much more bang for your spell slots

[@BanditsKeep]

Light is certainly underrated

[@jamesblack3586]

@@BanditsKeep Certainly is,I have used it to enchant an sword so our fighter could hit a monster that needed magic weapons to hit, used it to fool an orc cheiftan to think that our fighters sword was a powerful artifact that we traded for safe passage, and to kill a wyvern with a first level mage,sudden blindness mid power dive no savings throw Spell casting dosnt get better than that good times

[@BanditsKeep]

@@jamesblack3586 You are saying no saving throw vs dying when it crashed? It would have gotten as save vs spells to resist the blindness - at least in BX

[@jamesblack3586]

we were playing advanced and in advance there is no savings throw for light and the wyvern botched its death save saddest face i have ever seen a DM make but he gave us the full xp and congradulated me so fair play to him

[@BanditsKeep]

@@jamesblack3586 that’s awesome!

[@Taricus]

Wand of Magic Missiles exists in AD&D. It can fire a max of 2 missiles/round, using 1 charge for each missile. Any class can use the wand. It hits automatically if I wizard uses it, but requires an attack roll to hit with any other class.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@NegativeHeadspace]

Thanks for the video. I get what you're saying now. And agree. I shall ponder well these pearls of wisdom. Two thumbs up 👍

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks for the kind words.

[@SusCalvin]

One trick the crew does with Darkness is escapes. They pop Darkness behind them as they run and toss out spikes or marbles or oil or something inside the dark. Enemies might hesitate just a little when suddenly faced with a sphere of magical darkness, enough for the crew to leg it around one or two corners and lose pursuit. And if they push it, they have no chance to detect the marbles and nasty stuff tossed out.

[@BanditsKeep]

Nice!

[@SusCalvin]

@@BanditsKeep Even if it's already dark for you, the spell specifically works on targets with other visual senses as well. A lot of dungeon encounters have that advantage over the PCs, they can see in the dark. It was less useful against the Veins of the Earth encounter menagerie where nothing has darksight and Darkness does not make a difference. You can't Darkness the echolocation of a bat away.

[@SusCalvin]

@@BanditsKeep If enemies have darkvision and other nonsense visual senses it removes that advantage for them. So just because the corridor is already dark for you doesn't mean it is for them. It doesn't do much against the Veins of the Earth menagerie where darkvision is practically removed. You can't Darkness away the echolocation of a bat.

[@jdRamza]

One thing I like about OSE (and you can do it without OSE) is the advanced genre rules which let the MU expand his spellbook through scrolls or paying to copy other wizards like in AD&D. Gives them something to spend money on and allows for a wider selection. Playing the original way is fun too though. Edit: Good point on the wands. You don't always need to mess with the MU spellbook capacity if they have other awesome things to use.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure - when I run OD&D MUs have many spells in their books - both ways are fun

[@comproggi]

I mostly used it to pick off injured foes fleeing to get help, or to disrupt the enemy. I thought of it as a long range dagger that didn't put me in harm's way.

[@BanditsKeep]

Makes sense

[@RoDaGrier]

Off topic, I launched a ASSH game today for my players. We do a play by post game as we all have crazy schedules. I really enjoyed your mega dungeon videos. Very good information for resources (like Don Jon) that I wasn't aware of. It was also just good to hear a DM who wasn't myself thinking out loud.

[@BanditsKeep]

Oh very cool! I do love me some ASSH. Let me know how it goes.

[@christopherdecator9742]

I was prepared to disagree with the premise that Magic Missile wasn't good, and found myself agreeing. 😆 Ever since I've been playing, Magic Missile has been the "killer app" of the 1st level wizard. I always found you get way more mileage out of Sleep. I recently went back to running a B/X game and was surprised to read it did so much damage. Found myself nodding all the way through this!

[@BanditsKeep]

🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻

[@SusCalvin]

Sleep is powerful, we've even lowered the amount of HD affected in our game. We give everyone a save against Sleep, even if you cover a huge group there'll be some odd dudes who make their save. Everyone fears the moment a troglodyte with spellcasting ability pulls out Sleep on them. It drops virtually all their dogs, their hirelings and even a couple mid-level PCs. We've played with some creatures being immune to Sleep, anything that doesn't have a natural sleep cycle. Skeletons, something like a gelatinous cube etc.

[@danielrowan4716]

Charm Person in 1/2e is toned down a bit but can still be a game changer early and extremely useful on low level NPCs later. I actually like Magic Missile but understand that Gygax hated it and had put it in as a concession to Jim Ward(?).

[@BanditsKeep]

It’s a fine spell at higher levels or in a game where you can decide what spell to cast on the spot.

[@DDHomebrew]

I have to admit taking Magic Missile as a magic user automatically in the day. Just seemed too good to pass up, and spells like sleep lost their effectiveness at higher levels. Then when they came out with the Schools of Magic I tended toward Invoker, another lazy choice but one that encouraged MM usage. There were GM's (or referees as we said) who said that when charms wore off the NPC was pissed off about being charmed, though I agree that if you never did anything bad why would they? Back in the 90's I ran a solo campaign with a friend: just me as the GM and him as a player, once a month just to relive the old college days of D&D. He played a wizard who wandered the wilderness alone, occasionally hooking up with a few NPC's for a one-shot or big battle, but mostly using scare tactics to frighten things. While I allowed for some suspension of disbelief to keep things moving, I came to realize that it was a suspension of the way we thought D&D should be run: set battles that rewarded damage spells. If you run into a wizard alone in the wilderness you are going to be cautious, and once my friend reached 7th level you should be scared.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@kevoreilly6557]

On AD&D (back in the day) we decided - spell casters start with 3 prepared spells: MU: 1 utility, 1 defense, 1 attack Cleric: 2 utility, 1 attack or 1 defense Elf: 1 attack, 2 whatever Then additional profession table on top of that.

[@BanditsKeep]

Nice!

[@RoDaGrier]

On the topic of spell limits and spell research: The MU can also research "other magical effects". So if you know you are going into a specific dungeon or facing a specific magical danger, some money, time, a good roll and a willing DM could mean you walk in with valuable information or a one time advantage. Maybe a true name to nurf that vampire a little. Or maybe a "enchanted" dagger that if unbloodied (unused) can strike a spirit. Or the answer to a sphinx's riddle. Magic research is the most under used, but maybe coolest, aspect of the MU. DMs, let your players use it!

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure! I like the idea of creating special one time or specific use items

[@RoDaGrier]

@@BanditsKeep it gives then something cool to do and opens up a lot of adventures. A one use trick is kind of like a very niche magic item, I admit that, but the main thing is to steer it a bit. It is important that magic users feel magical and having the ability to, for instance, to cancel a vampires charm gaze, will make that player feel like van helsing, and really only take away one of that monsters many tricks. Word off caution though. If you let them develope something like that, then don't cheat then with a switch. That will pretty much guarantee they will never bother again.

[@BanditsKeep]

@@RoDaGrier I agree there the DM switch is very uncool

[@Ifrit8054]

Automatically knowing you were charmed and attacking the caster was the first thing I kicked out of 5e. If you were particularly intelligent you might get a roll to see if you realize what happened. But standard barkeep would never know. Either the spell failed and nothing happened or it succeeds and when it wears off they just wave the charm time off as either “doesn’t remember” or just believes that the dude was their friend and they were helping.

[@BanditsKeep]

🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻

[@BlackJar72]

I see Magic Missile as a kind of niche spell ... if the party is attacking a young sleeping dragon it can be great due to being at least one automatic hit that could push it over the edge. Otherwise, it ends up being one of the weakest combat spells. Coming from BECMI is something that makes me think about it a little differently since that system does not limit the number of spells in a spellbook as long as they can be learned in some way (and read magic is always there as a freebie). I used to see requiring read magic for scrolls as a terrible idea, though now I realize how balanced it is, since what it really does is give flexibility, allowing any spell on a scroll to be effectively substituted at cast time instead of having to pick just one for that slot.

[@BanditsKeep]

Scrolls also allow the DM to give lower level magic users access to high-level magic for very specific adventures and scenarios

[@RoDaGrier]

@@BanditsKeep yes. That. Scrolls can be a useful fix if the DM has maybe miscalculated his dungeon and the PC are in the midst of an arse kicking.

[@Goblinerd]

Don't you only need to cast Read Magic on a scroll once? As in, you find a scroll and cast Read Magic to discover it's content, and from there you can use the scroll at any later point.

[@RoDaGrier]

@@Goblinerd you do, but if the pc is in the habit of using scrolls they may well have it memorized. If not, toss in some potions.

[@MrNetWraith]

Just to offer a bit of perspective, since Bandit's Keep noted he skipped 3rd and 4th edition... 3e's Magic Missile - at least, the 3.5 version, I don't have access to the 3.0 version - is basically a direct translation of the AD&D 2e version; it's a 1st level spell available to Wizards and Sorcerers of the Evocation school. It takes a Standard Action to use, does 1d4+1 Force type damage and hits a target automatically, with a range of (100+10/level) feet. A caster generates one missile per casting, with an additional missile for every 2 levels, to a maximum of 5 missiles, which can be freely distributed between any number of targets providing that the targets all within both range and 15ft of each other. So you can blast a single target with 5 missiles for 5d4+4 damage, or five targets for 1d4+1 damage each, or any intermedium between. 4e has two versions of Magic Missile; the original one, and a revamped one that was offered during the Essentials "soft reboot" of the system. Both versions are 1st level at-will attack spells only available to the Wizard - in 4e, all classes have a completely unique selection of combat maneuvers or spells; a Wizard's spell list is very different to a Sorcerer's, which in turn looks nothing like a Warlock's, a Bard's, an Artificer's or a Swordmage's. With the original version, it takes a Standard Action to use, has a range of 100 feet, it does 2d4+Intelligence modifier Force damage (which increases to 4d4+Int Mod at 21st level), and targets the Reflex defense. It has the unique trait that it counts as a "ranged basic attack", meaning that ally powers which grant the use of a basic attack allow the Wizard the option to cast Magic Missile. The Essentials version differs in that hits automatically, but only does 2+Int modifier damage, which a) increases to 3+IM at 11th level and 5+IM at 21st level, and b) gains bonus damage equal to the enhancement bonus of an enchanted implement if you're holding one. It also counts as a ranged basic attack. If memory serves, most 4e fans avoid the Essentials version because, like so much of the Essentials crunch, it was absolutely abysmal. Either way, I think it's telling that in 4e, Magic Missile was downgraded to an At-Will attack (the weakest tier of powers, largely intended to be combat-fallback options), whilst Sleep was turned into a 1st level Daily spell - Dailies being the most potent of all powers.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks! That's great info!

[@duanehicks6962]

Another great video! Watching an earlier video of yours (I think it was the one with the example of combat), alignment came up briefly. Could you do a video on B/X alignment, how it differs from AD&D alignment, and the benefits of having a simpler alignment system which, arguably, offers more roleplaying possibilities due to its nuances? Also, how do you feel about alignment as not just a reflection of a character's disposition and values but as actual cosmic forces (Law, Balance, Chaos; White, Grey, Black; and so on). I don't mean to copy Warhammer with its versions of Chaos, but to maybe have Chaos and the other forces represented in a different way.

[@BanditsKeep]

Oh yes, every KZbinr must eventually do an alignment video LOL I have it brewing around in my head, so you shall get it fairly soon I would imagine.

[@MrRourk]

In OD&D Sleep was the mandatory and must have spell

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@krystal2423]

Great video Daniel, not much else to say as I agree with you.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks 🙏🏻

[@IGotABigSpellbook]

I would argue that magic missile is valuable, even at lower levels. The way it is used at my table is personal protection, like a more proactive shield. It's a "loaded gun" the user can have whenever they need to quickly put down somebody who got past the fighter, or when diplomacy with goblins go sour without worry of their spell being interrupted. While this may not be RAW, at our table there is no action "cost" to fire the missile in a later round. The user can cast it on one round, and as long as they didn't declare another cast next round they can run over and flip a lever or steal the gem shielding the dungeon boss, and still have the choice to let the magic dart fly or not. So, while sleep or charm person have their uses, the simplicity of the magic missile and its ability to be used when performing a traditional cast could be interrupted or fatal means that it shouldn't be left behind.

[@BanditsKeep]

Those are some great points, I still think a character, especially one played by a new player, will feel disappointed if they can. “just cast one magic missile“ because it is basically an attack and a specific and powerful one in certain situations, but really not as powerful as sleep to most people. The BECMI rules are basically how you are describing them, you cast a spell and the missile floats around you for multiple turns until you decide to cast it as an action which I think is a pretty cool concept.

[@JW-dp4we]

The difference between magic missile in 5e and BX is crazy at first level. The 5e version starts at three missiles and can potentially wipe out or severely cripple an enemy goblin or kobold group, or kill a more dangerous low-level monster outright by aiming all 3 missiles at it for -guaranteed damage.

[@BanditsKeep]

True

[@Chronos371]

WHEN I WAS JUST A LITTLE BOY I ASKED MY *DM* WHAT I SHOULD DO AND HE SAID THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF DANIEL, but that was because he didn't want anyone to outshine his *dmpc* .

[@BanditsKeep]

Oh man, not the dreaded dmpc! I feel like those are the worst.

[@Chronos371]

@@BanditsKeep I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

[@RoDaGrier]

@@Chronos371 and as a middleaged mage I went back and blasted them with 4 magic missiles.

[@doctoronishispsychosislab1474]

new DM here, my players only use, bless, magic missile and eldrich blast with the odd burning hands every combat. So i gave them all level 1 spells free to cast at will as long as they have the components if needed. Nope they still use the same spells lol. I also thought it would be cheap to start them in a tavern, So i started them in the wood they went stright to town and went to the tavern lol.

[@BanditsKeep]

😂

[@Doctorduckbutter77]

Magic Missile is good when you need something dead now. Played last night and it was useful because an Orc broke through the line. The Magic-User had it cast before the battle and let it go and the line was secured. I agree Charm Person is good, it takes on a weird tone with modern sensibilities. My players did a Charm Person on a female Hobgoblin and it got a little weird. I played her up as a person, with life goals and dreams. She could never go back to her Hobgoblin pack because she was now "tainted" by magic. The players ended up feeling bad and wanting to release her. The issue is RAW, there is no way to stop the spell beyond her making the save. Forcing your will on another sentient creature is a bit problematic. This power became a curse almost and they haven't used it since.

[@BanditsKeep]

I try not to take such things as reality in my fantasy worlds - that being said, if your table does then I would allow the spell to do something else rather than guilt the party into not using it.

[@matthewkirkhart2401]

Ow Daniel! I just took 1d6+1 points of damage to my heart from your well thought out criticism of one of my beloved spells! 😫 But seriously, you make some great points and I totally agree, as far as combat spells for a 4th or lower level M-U in B/X, Sleep is generally a better choice. And I also agree that 4th or lower level M-U should be focusing more on utility spells that produce effects that no other class can. The Fighters are there to fight after all. Why is the M-U doing that? I can think of, and remember from playing, very specific situations when MM is a very useful combat spell, but honestly these exceptions really just strengthen your arguments that in 99% of situations, there are better combat spells than MM for low level M-Us. That said, I will give three cases where MM can be very helpful as a combat spell. First, when you are fighting something like a gargoyle that requires +1 or better weapons to hit it, and only one party member has a magic weapon. A second case is when you have a monster that is attached to a party member, like a Stirge, and you run the risk of hurting the PC if you attack the Stirge; the auto-hit mechanic for MM is super handy in cases like this, allowing the M-U to hit, and likely kill, the attached Stirge without harming the PC. The final case is when you are needing to kill a slime, jelly, or ooze type creature that eats weapons or armor and no one wants to get close to the monster. My final point is very controversial and before I even say it very, very few people I know agrees with me on this point. But, here goes. I interpret the 1 turn duration in a way that I think is consistent with the rules and also happens to increase the value of MM as a low level combat spell. One of the things that makes spells powerful in B/X is their long durations because the spell stays in effect for a long time. For example, Protection from Evil has a duration I think of 6 turns or 1 hour. The important point here for my interpretation of MM is that for Protection from Evil, the magic stays in effect for 6 turns. It does not stop working during that 6 turn period just because at some point it protected the caster from evil. No, the effect lasts for 6 turns and once it is cast the MU benefits from this protection for 6 turns. That is what the 6 turn duration means. MM has a duration of 1 turn or 10 minutes. To be internally consistent with the rules, IMHO this means that a MU can, once per round after the spell is successfully cast, shoot a magic missile that hits a target they can see for 1d6+1 damage. This is the MU’s action for the round, so they can’t attack with their dagger or cast another spell in the same round that they shoot off a magic missile. And because of the way time works in B/X they would essentially only be able to have this spell in effect for one combat encounter because once the encounter is done we assume 1 turn has past following the combat as the party rests, binds wounds, recovers shot or thrown projectiles, etc. But I think that they can theoretically once the spell is cast shoot a magic missile each round for the 1 turn duration. When I was a kid this is how we played it. I think we are assuming and reading into the spell that you only can attack once with it. If that were true, shouldn’t the duration read “instantaneous”? I think it is 1 turn for this very reason.

[@BanditsKeep]

Those are certainly good situations to use MM. As to your your mega missile version ... yikes! that’s quite an extreme interpretation, and not one I have seen before. I could not see myself ever using it but it does seem very bad ass. That being said I could see one of my players researching a third or fourth level spell that is basically what you’re saying there. That would seem more balanced to me and reasonable. And be better than magic missile in general LOL

[@matthewkirkhart2401]

@@BanditsKeep you are correct, very few people agree with my interpretation of the duration of MM. functionally, though it essentially means that the M-U is a serious combat threat for one encounter ... that’s it. In this way it is like a toned down version of Fireball except that the M-U can be taken down at some point in the round so you don’t continue to get the 1 missile per round effect because the M-U has been killed. Honestly this is what happens for 1st or 2nd level M-Us usually when using this rule interpretation. Sounds great in theory, specifically one auto-hit missile per round for the entire melee, but the M-U requires line of sight which means the monsters have line of sight to the M-U and with only about 2-6 hit points and an AC of 9 ... well, you know what happens to the M-U often. We also assume that the normal restrictions for spell casting are in effect as well: can be interrupted and if so the missile doesn’t go off that round, M-U can only slow walk for movement, etc. I think the take home message is low level M-U just have no business in combat, and throwing around MMs puts them in combat.

[@SusCalvin]

@@matthewkirkhart2401 One thing we've used is to dabble with how Sleep works. Lowered the targets affected to "only" 2d6 of HD, everyone affected gets a save, anything without a natural sleep cycle is immune, allowing non-engaged enemies to try rustling their friends. It is still a powerful spell that can drop a huge group of most threats. Now the PCs can find themselves in a few specialized situations where Sleep doesn't work. A gang of undead or a pudding comes along, and you can't put those to sleep.

[@syd4890]

Finally! Now all shall be revealed! Also, first? :P

[@BanditsKeep]

The secrets behind the magic (missile) 😊

[@russellharrell2747]

Imagine being the guy with Read Magic at first level and casts it on a scroll…which has Read Magic.

[@BanditsKeep]

😂 that would be funny, but they would have an extra read magic so a good thing long term. More often they get a scroll with invisibility or fireball 🔥

[@lairdbarron5297]

First couple of levels are tough. But, wands and scrolls rain down in old school games. Never met a fourth or fifth level mage who wasn't packing multiple wands and scrolls of MM, sleep, fireball, etc.

[@lairdbarron5297]

P.S.: Thanks for your videos. This is one of the best OSR channels.

[@BanditsKeep]

This is the truth, a mage with a wand or two is not someone you mess with

[@stevekillgore9272]

4:15 Regarding "common folk", "normies", the tavernkeeper, village cheesemonger or miller - I remember the City State of the Invincible Overlord with its abundance of mid-level and even high-level Classed characters running all the assorted shops, what carnage.

[@stevekillgore9272]

I've put in a Crafter/Merchant Class, with Levels from 1 to 6. They have the Gods protecting them too, somewhat. 1st Level have D5 HP, 2nd Level adds a D4 of HP, 3rd Level a D3, 4th adds D2, 5th and 6th each get +1 HP . . . So a max of 16 HP can be rolled up.

[@BanditsKeep]

Yup

[@SusCalvin]

@@stevekillgore9272 I remember looking through the pages and finding dang Balder the god hanging out in a wine shop in disguise. Like he's managing it as a hobby project.

[@Frolmaster]

WOW! Charm Person is potentially really powerful! I would let the player play their 'new friend' in combat while they are charmed. That way, the player won't feel like they have nothing to do after they cast their only spell for the day.

[@BanditsKeep]

Exactly! The MU now becomes a gnoll or ogre in combat!

[@lastsonofkrypton3918]

It's great and it gets better! Just wait till you get ahold of Charm Monster! 😈

[@Eron_the_Relentless]

Actually rolling to hit for mm only existed in Holmes Basic. Mm originated in OD&D supp 1 Greyhawk and at that point it was implied as unerring. I think a lot of stuff from Greyhawk was, in retrospect, bad ideas.

[@BanditsKeep]

Nowhere in Greyhawk does it say MM always hits - if I knew nothing of the game, I would assume an attack roll.

[@Eron_the_Relentless]

@@BanditsKeep The following is my opinion + rumors and logical deduction, I don't pretend to be an insider: I would assume magic works the same way as OD&D if I was getting Greyhawk. No spells in OD&D require attack rolls, it'd be silly to link those two systems as Magic Users have the worst attack table. As a tabletop wargamer in the mid-70s I would know this. OD&D itself assumed that level of familiarity. Only the basic editions were written aimed at non-established gamers. Gygax himself seemingly corrected the record in AD&D, he had very little to do with the writing of Holmes Basic (or any Basic edition, for that matter).

[@BanditsKeep]

@@Eron_the_Relentless Fair enough, But for me, the evidence would be the many times that Tim Kask has stated that Gary wanted a to hit roll for magic missile and Tim convinced him not to have it - maybe using the same logic you have presented. Do you believe that magic missile then should have a saving throw?Also, keep in mind that in Chainmail which is the wargame background of course, the magic arrow does not automatically hit and you must roll to it with it. Also in Chainmail, both lightning bolt and fireball require a kind of to hit roll as they are treated as artillery. This is a fun “ what if” Scenario for sure. Also one final thing Magic Users and everyone else have the same chance to hit at first level.

[@nneisler]

"You're Magic Missile is so weak you couldn't kill a normal human." from the Book of Wizard Insults

[@BanditsKeep]

😂

[@JdrD30]

I love OS Magic-Users

[@BanditsKeep]

Me too!

[@spudsbuchlaw]

In 5e, a MM does about 75% damage a typical spell would but of course it cant miss. That's pretty good!

[@BanditsKeep]

In 5e it’s pretty good for sure

[@russellharrell2747]

All enemy wizards in 5E should know MM to instantly kill any PCs that go to zero HP. No more popping up and down for you!

[@spudsbuchlaw]

@@russellharrell2747 That actually happened in one of my games. Our Paladin Zelda 2 down-stabbed a guy off a building and got KO'd from fall damage. It was against a really bad dude we'd been tracking for the entire campaign, who we accidentally met at a really inconvinient time, and we had to pouce on him. The Paladin had like 2 hp from a previous encounter but we had to kill him now, thus the risky, yet epic play. He did like 150~ damage, cuz 5e paladin. Then the guy turned around and blasted his unconcious ass. We were all simultenously suprised, and not at all suprised

[@russellharrell2747]

@@spudsbuchlaw I wish I could like this comment a hundred times just for the Zelda 2 reference. And a hundred more times for how epic that whole situation sounds.

[@spudsbuchlaw]

@@russellharrell2747 Zelda 2 was ahead of its time, we have only just caught up to its genius decades later. We love a good Fokka in this house!

[@MrRourk]

AD&D 1e Burning Hand or Chromatic Orb

[@BanditsKeep]

Oh yeah, for sure

[@SusCalvin]

The players have hated any sort of touch attack spell. Their MU has to walk into contact to use it, robe AC and all.

[@mitchellslate1249]

"You can drop the normal human in town, and even a soldier, at level 1." Why would I not take this spell!? "But you only get it once..." Why are you not opening a Wizard's Tower for me?!!!!

[@BanditsKeep]

With a good enough bluff taking one person down might be enough

[@mitchellslate1249]

@@BanditsKeep For sure...numbers are overwhelming, no matter the game system designed typically. Although 1 hitpoint minions applied to 5e seems to be a pretty fun design for smashing through hordes if that is what you want.

[@SusCalvin]

@@mitchellslate1249 Because with Sleep, you could drop 2d8 of normal people. Sleep could affect a huge crowd of 1-3 HD dudes.

[@darthbrooks4933]

Personally, I think it’s a symptom of the mechanics. It’s a way for magic users to hurt any creature. With all the spells that depend on saving throws and what have you. The “auto hit” feature is a stop gap IMO. GURPS is a much better system to run D&D

[@BanditsKeep]

Better for you, you mean.

[@Goblinerd]

Very interesting points about Magic Missile. Being new to B/X and OSR, I hadn't noticed that the spell had a duration. This brings up a question for me: Can the MU fire the missile(s) the same round they cast it, or can they only fire them on the following round(s)?

[@BanditsKeep]

I’ve always played it that they can shoot the missiles immediately, in fact that’s exactly what most people do.

[@Goblinerd]

@@BanditsKeep Thanks

[@TheArcturusProject]

New fan

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks 😊 - I appreciate it

[@99zxk]

Magic Missile is subpar in 3 - 5, too. Why do 1d4+1 damage when you can take out 22 HP worth of creatures with Sleep? Same with fireball. Why use fireball to do d6/level or 8d6 in 5e when you can use Prismatic Cube to remove those creatures from the fight?

[@BanditsKeep]

Good point, I remember in the 5E campaign I played in the wizard not using fireball very often for exactly that reason.

[@williamobraidislee3433]

Ventriloquism ftw

[@BanditsKeep]

Yes!

[@Goblinerd]

Hey Daniel, you mention in this video that one reason to cast magic missile in advance is so it can't be interrupted. Since I don't believe there are rules for counterspelling, what were you referring to? As an aside, Magic Missile CAN be interrupted during combat, even if cast beforehand by means of the Dispel Magic spell, unless I'm wrong here?

[@BanditsKeep]

In BX you have to declare you are casting a spell before initiative is rolled. If you then lose initiative and take damage you lose the spell. There is no “concentration” rules though, so once a spell is cast it will not be lost if the MU is hit. Sure dispel magic would do it though.

[@Goblinerd]

​@@BanditsKeep I'll have to read the initiative rules properly, thanks for the info! I guess the Concentration thing is just a OSE thing then. OSE Classic Fantasy Rules Tome, p.56: Concentration: Some spells specify that the caster must concentrate in order to maintain the magical effect. Unless the spell description states otherwise, performing any other action or being distracted (e.g. attacked) causes concentration to end.

[@BanditsKeep]

@@Goblinerd 🤔 I suppose some spells list that in the description but it’s not a formal “rule” as far as I can remember - I’ll have to look - in any case since magic missile does not say that, it would not be an issue.

[@Goblinerd]

@@BanditsKeep Fair enough, but since it has a casting time of 1 turn, Dispel Magic does apply though, right?

[@BanditsKeep]

@@Goblinerd For sure dispel magic would do it

[@kendiamond7852]

But if you don't have Magic Missile, how can you attack the darkness? :)

[@BanditsKeep]

Very carefully

[@jonwooldridge3766]

Sleep is a far superior spell.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@YeshuaAgapao]

Magic missile sucks in 5E. Obsoleted by chromatic orb, guiding bolt, and cantrips like firebolt, combined with all classes having the same attack bonuses. Earlier editions magic missile's niche is it always hit when wizards have a very poor THACO / BAB and there is no mitigating 'touch AC' of 3.5/Pathfinder (which was removed in 5E), and it doesn't cause collateral damage, and it doesn't require an unobstructed path, only sight.

[@BanditsKeep]

I played in a game where the wizard preferred it to fireball (casted the MM at level 3) because of the specific “accuracy” but I can see it not being a go to for low level damage

[@SusCalvin]

My friends didn't want an over-abundance of little level 1 zap spells in their OSR game and decided to focus on Magic Missile.

[@SusCalvin]

@@BanditsKeep One of the players in a game used MM against objects instead. They shot MM to disable a lock out of reach, cooked off a grenade they'd placed etc. I thought a moment and figured that sure, it deals damage. If I think that object would be busted with that amount of magic damage it is. And you're going to automatically hit the part you say you're targeting. And you can do it at the full range of the spell, so now you can be knocking out lights with MM in the window of the next building.