Banksy, Kurt Cobain, and The Paradox That Claimed Them

[@pinto66.66]

My professor described 'art' best (in my opinion). "Art is a verb, not a noun. The art is the act of making something, not the finished product. The finished product is ' a WORK of art, what it took to get there is the ART." James Olsen

[@luxiusilluminus2844]

I suspect your teacher is an abstract expressionist

[@rskl8083]

@@luxiusilluminus2844 heheheh

[@petersteel8021]

I love this quote. In consumer society everything is about consumption and anything can be the subject of consumption"a piece of art", scandals, news, girls, boys, fights even a comment, a reaction, or your neighbours' life. It's a black hole that consumes everything. But it always feels good to suffer for something, to create something that is a piece of you, even if no one cares.

[@OrdinaryCritic]

The quote still uses “art” as a noun tho...but I get his point.

[@danschneider7531]

Art is a verb not a noun because the art is an active agent and works on the audience. But it is both the work and the act.

[@glitchsister]

Had to go and make sure Banksy wasn't dead before the intro was done

[@EyeLean5280]

Same!

[@papermario3982]

SAAAAAME, my guy scared me 😭

[@THICCTHICCTHICC]

If he died, would we even know? His persona could easily still be continued after he dies

[@glitchsister]

@@THICCTHICCTHICC banksy hasn't really doodled on a wall that wasn't for an auction since before sheepardfairy got commissioned by Obama, so I'm not saying not much would change or that he might of retired decades ago and it's just a PR team running it, but banko is a bit of a genral brand name now innit. even dinks like phillip defranco gets their older designs sold because they look vaguely like something banksy would do in like 2006 on their deviantart

[@ghandibanks]

Same 😂😂😂😂 bro scared me

[@angelor9211]

The thing that I find Ironic about Banksy is that he never wanted to be famous for his work because he wanted people to enjoy art randomly in different areas, but now it seems the only thing that makes regular people recognize the art is that he made it Its gone as far to the point one owner ripped out a wall that Banksy's had painted his art out just to sell it, Its the last thing he wants to make his urban art only recognized because "look Its Banksy!" Instead of "oh! Look at this cool painting I found around the corner!"

[@JPTHRICE]

street art /graffiti (differnt thing) is all about being famous. its all full of big egos who want attention

[@angelor9211]

@@JPTHRICE Its not about being big that makes 14 year old kids put up stylized letters filled with color, its about the idea that they made something multiple can look at I went to Guadalajara a few months ago, and the amount of graffiti in lower areas was insane, but I liked them not because they looked the greatest or were the best, but if not because they were made by people who genuinely wanted to give their community something Its the same with Banksy, he wants to give communities something that will make them appreciate what they are seeing, a gift to the people of the community who work hard and yet receive nothing in return at times The only way Banksy's method can be the same as before, is to realize a new name or identity, and soon when so much art overwhelms the streets that isn't made by him, those will be left alone for only the common people to enjoy

[@JPTHRICE]

@@angelor9211 there is monetary interest behind him, its on canvas. you cant take streetart from your example, Guadalajara just off the wall and hang it in somebodies posh diningroom. or make licensed prints and sell them at any place that sells posters.. whilst theres nothing wrong about that actually, giving him the look of some poor guy who just wants to make people happy and has no interest in fame and money is just a lie. defacing legendary, pioneer, graffiti art is also not so noble, let alone having somebody manslaughterted by your fanboys is. ohh boo-hoo poor banksy, hes totally just like kurt cobain lol

[@angelor9211]

@@JPTHRICE If I'm being honest with you, it just sounds like you're pretty butthurt about banksy

[@JPTHRICE]

@@angelor9211 absolutely

[@Nono-hk3is]

Banksy having his pieces sold to randos for reasonable prices is a bigger EFF YOU to the art world than the shredding because it denied the art elitists the opportunity to capitalize on his work.

[@Nono-hk3is]

@Sebastian Hahn sure, but the randos get some decent cash, and the art snobs don't get as good a deal, plus they don't get to brag at the oxygen bar about how *they knew what was going on when no one else did, hnyah*

[@drctrs]

Exactly. Either way, anything he does may be viewed as a publicity stunt.

[@Eralen00]

@Sebastian Hahn yeah but still his point was made. He sold it to a regular person who liked it for its own sake. It makes people examine the art on its own merits rather than "the market". If those regular folks happen to get some money i think he would like that, because they're not one of the cynical art elitists who only buy art for the money it can make them

[@poindextertunes]

agreed 🤝

[@valleyshrew]

Those "pieces" are not worth anything without his name attached because they're ugly stencils with nothing interesting to say politically. Banksy is just famous for being a prolific criminal, he has no talent or insight.

[@pocoapoco1586]

"I'm sick of not having the courage to be an absolute nobody" - J.D. Salinger I feel it is the unwanted resolution to the paradox

[@THICCTHICCTHICC]

The only person I've actually seen successfully escape this cycle is Bob Dylan. And he did that by simply disappearing in his prime. He was one of the most famous people in the world in the 60s. He was a big voice in the final days of the protests for civil rights. He wrote songs that everyone wanted to cover because those covers went #1. He's a big influence on the fucking BEATLES. He's a big reason Ray Bans got so popular. People copied his hair, his songwriting, his music, his everything. He was called the voice of one of the most defining generations in recent history. And then one day he just dropped off the face of the earth, and came back years later after the hype was gone. Killed his own spectacle on purpose. The only other man who did it was Muhammed Ali - but it was forced upon him. Perhaps it's no surprise that him and Bob were close friends back then.

[@jamesgreenldn]

I think it was forced on Dylan as well I heard he had a motorcycle accident and had to recover

[@THICCTHICCTHICC]

@@jamesgreenldn Dylan made tons of music almost immediately after the crash - it's one of his most prolific periods - but he barely made any public appearances for over 3 years. It was definitely a personal choice to avoid the spotlight. Woodstock festival was made, in part, to lure him out of hiding - because he lived in Woodstock. Naturally he performed at a different festival instead.

[@jamesgreenldn]

@@THICCTHICCTHICC ah ok my bad Mr Thicc ass, maybe Woody Guthrie was the underground rebel and Dylan didn’t like his music being commodified?

[@stephenmorton8017]

sometimes i stare at my Titanium cycle and marvel at the combined artistry it took to produce. of course i chose the components to dress the frame. the welds are beautiful.

[@philipramirez5406]

The most recent example of an artist doing that is Earl Sweatshirt I think. Hip-hop madness has a great breakdown and can explain it better than me but basically he never wanted to be famous, dips for a few years, and when he comes back it's with a completely different sound. kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5-cg3-MgL9-nbs

[@nicholaspeterson61]

What if he stopped putting his name on his projects? And leak that he has begun doing this. This would allow "copy cats" to make similar artworks to his, and not signing them ultimately increasing the risk over the reward. Banksy creates ultimate anonymity, creates an environment where the art is more appreciate, and gives nameless artists a voice.

[@nxgan1088]

What I've noticed in the UK is that an artwork will pop up somewhere, and usually be covered by the region's local newspaper and press or whatever with "is it a Banksy?" and if its a copycat or an artist with a similar style (usually is) the mystery and speculation will die out if nothing is posted to banksy's social media because banksy usually claims his artworks on his instagram.

[@surprisedchar2458]

@@nxgan1088 sounds like he’s created his own problem. The solution in that case would be to go dark. Stop claiming it and nobody will know.

[@buzinaocara]

@@surprisedchar2458 he didn't create an actual problem. He created his fame, which is not a problem at all. Pretending it is a problem is part of his cinically crafted brand.

[@percussion44]

@@buzinaocara Absolutely correct. All these angst filled anti-capitalists are all full of it hypocrites. They offer nothing, no solutions no alternatives. All they do is complain that the system that has provided them everything, every goddam thing they have, is "unfair", it's a "problem" boo hoo hoo, poor me, capitalism made me rich and provided absolutely everything I have that feeds me, clothes me, protects me, and comforts me. It's "unfair" that the entity with persuasion power, marketing power, and influence takes a share of the pie when combined with the artists creative power to produce and sell a product? If you don't want your whatever commodified, don't wish to make a living from your work that you produce in your off time as a garbage man and do purely for your own creative pleasure, don't sell it. Leave it unsigned and donate it to flea markets for anyone who's interested.

[@cargasm383]

@@buzinaocara It is definitely created on purpose. Shredding his protest piece is a big look at me spectacle to create more fame and value. If he really wanted to protest he would have sold a piece for a massive amount of money then immediately sell as many of the same pieces for next to nothing to as many regular people as possible. Flooding the market making the expensive piece of art almost worthless. Imagine that, some rich scum bag spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on a piece at auction drooling at the idea of future profits. Just to leave that auction and see the same piece being sold for pennies on the street outside. But then his art will be seen as a bad investment. no one wants that.

[@paulmarfil6188]

"Despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage."

[@JohnnyArtPavlou]

❤

[@bgbear4668]

some always say what is lost can never be saved

[@sublimeister9630]

It’s because of your “rage” that you are trapped in a cage. You are still in dualistic Ego of separation (see Thich Nhat Hanh-“Non-Duality and the Consciousness of Things” kzbin.info/www/bejne/jnLaaGehj76jeas ) 😊

[@Malama_Ki]

Amazing how one line can make you cringe hearing that whiny voice….

[@_..-.._..-.._]

A line said by another man who banged Courtney Love

[@nannywhumpers5702]

I have a couple of paintings of the ocean my mom purchased on the boulevard in Santa Barbara. They are beautiful and I love it and I look at it and it reminds me of my childhood. I have a painting from my grandma, I have no idea where she got it or who painted it, but I love it. I stared at it for hours in the reflections of the pool playing over the painting during the summers I spent at her home. Looking at it now can bring me back to that place. My relatives didn't want it, they didn't think it had value. To me, it's one of the most valuable things I own.

[@bag-o-bags]

Ah yes, what you’re describing has a name called “sentimental value.” Watch out, that sort of thing can be used against you if you’re not careful.

[@nannywhumpers5702]

@@bag-o-bags Thanks for the warning!

[@jennyjohn704]

@@bag-o-bags It is all too easy to dismiss 'sentimental value' as a worthless thing, but it isn't. Sentimental value is genuine value to an individual. Most other forms of value are little more than a price tag.

[@actuallymario7676]

i think an important factor to consider, at least in the kurt cobain comparison, is that kurt wanted to be the meat to be fed on. A book he said he was obsessed with, a book i read and can relate to as well. Perfume, by Patrick Susskind. A book about a boy who hates people but he wants the people to be obsessed with him and just when he accomplishes his goal and finally creates his perfect perfume which makes people go crazy over him, he decides he couldn't care less about their love and wants to be consumed by the very thing he's always known, the only thing he's ever known, which is hate. He douses himself with his perfume which makes people frenzy and they literally eat him alive. Just going off my own perception of life here and trying to guess how kurt might have felt, he disliked crowds and dynamics of shallow social interactions but was acutely aware of how they worked and wanted people to be gaga over him. Just when he reaches his goal, he realizes again oh yeah fuck people the stupid shits. However, i dont think thats why he killed himself, you can cope with all that bullshit. I think he kablamowed over the fact he couldnt quit heroine and be the father he wanted to be to his daughter. The shame you feel from failing yourself over and over again. Complete despair. My fight isn't heroine but i can only assume the dynamic of the fight makes you feel just as bad if not worse since the stakes are so much more meaningful to one's integrity. Conclusion, maybe the video has some merit, but his suicide has nothing to do with it.

[@Mraquanetchris]

Just saw in interview with Grohl where he tells the story when the record exec asks them what they want and Cobain responds " We want to be the biggest band in the world. " He signed on the dotted line. Made perfect radio friendly pop songs. Got in over his head. Poor guy.

[@celeritas2-810]

Great comment. Kablamowed is also an excellent verb.

[@loganc6501]

Never heard of Perfume til now, but I love the concept. Reminds me a little if something youd read about in a Palahniuk (sp?). I like your theory and I'm a little blown away at having never heard about Perfume's storyline in reference to Cobain's struggle

[@jackdawson5490]

I can't speak on Banksy, but in regard to Kurt Cobain, It's a widely spread sort of twisted romanticization that he only loathed being famous and successful. Especially to suggest that he killed himself because he couldn't handle fame, which is a particularly one dimensional way to look at a very troubled man and his life. It's spread around like fact. In reality, Cobain was a deeply contradictory man, yes he had many problems with the institutions he ended up benefiting no matter what he did, and certain people who listened to his music. But it's a first hand account from band mates, friends, and Courtney Love that Cobain loved and longed to be famous. He strategized to have a ridged plan to become famous, it's talked about in the Montage of Heck documentary. He worked endless nights to create the perfect, simple pop songs that would go onto Nevermind. If he really wanted to not be famous or loved, he would simply not release any more music. Kurt Cobain loved his audience, just not those that he considered posers. In the end Kurt was simply disillusioned by fame, not that he merely hated any aspect of it.

[@bounty_hunter101]

It’s a shame that people reduce the complexity of his life to a simply, ‘fame bad’. I am moved to further investigate his life and rise.

[@cab1020301]

This is just the human condition in general. Everyone wants to be famous and acknowledged in one way or another, but very few are built to actually handle being tue center of attention at all times. It is an even bigger problem in the age of mass media, but the "lonely at the top" paradox has existed forever.

[@grung910]

cobain didnt kill himself

[@williamtibbling]

Was looking for this

[@chilledtorsion]

@@grung910 move along the adults are talking

[@deadhorse0hungary]

Banksy could escape the trap by creating immense amount of art that he gives away for free or very cheap, and keep doing it reliably, like opening a store etc, ensuring the devaluation of his own work.

[@lightningwaffle9528]

but then people would just resell it for super cheap. hed have to not put his name on it

[@eeygore9150]

to escape commodification is to commodify yourself?

[@Its-Me-Guys]

That cant/wouldn't happen most people would just take them as free handouts and flip them for a profit Especially now after making a name for himself

[@vidret]

The ultimate way out of capitalism is to sell out so hard it implodes.

[@deadhorse0hungary]

@@Its-Me-Guys That's why he'd have to keep on doing it, so people couldn't flip it, as others won't buy it, since they know there will be unlimited amount for free in the future. It's just a theoretic scenario anyway, I'm aware how impractical it would be in reality.

[@shanghaitatoo]

As an art student ( who also has studied extensively in finance), the reality of art market you raised here has often troubled me. My solution so far is to aim for the publishing side of art and work towards comics, picturebooks and illustration. If I ever collect art, I would collect pieces from artists active in this industry whose work express truely of themselves. I also don't think these artists you mentioned here are truly 'trapped', I often feel like they just don't want to work for anything less than a big payday. I remember once being told that selling lots of prints will surely 'devalue' an artist's work and I should apparely avoid that to make sure my 'originals' can sell at maximum value. Coming from this, Banksy could easily just make unlimited prints and sell them, and use all the profit to run a free art school. Or if he doesn't want to participate in capitalism activities such as 'selling', he could also just give it all away during one of his exhibitions, make it available all the time. If a copy of 'official ' Banksy is so easily obtainable, would he still be 'trapped'? However I have a feeling that he doesn't want to do this. Then the sad truth is that he is a willing participant in this own show and we are the ones who're trapped to watch it and believe what we're told.

[@mr.j840]

I love your channel. I'm an art teacher in Bulgaria and I use your videos in some of the lessons.

[@antoinepetrov]

Ще ми се и аз да имах такъв учител.

[@pepeov6234]

@@antoinepetrov и на мен.

[@fazehank5311]

what the fuck going on in bulgaria bruh

[@gavisinspacern1488]

This is such a struggle for me as an artist. All I want to do is paint, and make paintings. But I understand my paintings need to have value in order for me to paint more. All I want to do is gift my art, but if I do, I won't survive. I'm still a student, so I'm trying not too hard to worry about it, but it's sad that I have to think about whether anyone will buy my passion.

[@kirani111]

If you're doing it for just for passion, I suggest you don't make painting into your career. Earn a job/degree in something else and let art be what you WANT to do, not what you need to do. However, our situation isn't as dire as artists who do activism. Many of us (if you're invested enough and know how to manage your time), can have a clear distinction between the artwork they do for work, and the art they do for themselves. They can't always get both.

[@gavisinspacern1488]

@@kirani111 I get what you're saying but yeah. This is something I want to do for a living, and for life.

[@charoraimondogarcia]

As an artist myself I went into teaching and make my art on the side. I even don't post it on social media. If I want to sell my art or make an exibit I do that (I sell from mouth to mouth or in art fairs). It works for me because I'm not very centered in money or fame, but I can see it's not an option or a choise for everybody

[@gavisinspacern1488]

@@charoraimondogarcia I'd love to do that!!

[@charoraimondogarcia]

@@gavisinspacern1488 Is the only way I found to escape the presure of being "marketable", of stressing about my style and if it's good, about numbers, of comparing myself yo other artists.

[@macfilms9904]

This is why Warhol was really almost the end of art - he recognized exactly what this video is about - his screens of Marilyn Monroe and Campbell's soup cans was a commentary on the fact, that was always there, that art is a commodity. Once you get to that point, is there anywhere else really to go that hasn't been done previously, possibly better?

[@Tar475]

The only escape is to keep your talents hidden from the world and enjoy them without the influence of outside force. Do it because you love it not because you might have an audience

[@gnarbeljo8980]

Whilst thay may be true it can't apply to activism and protest which is political activity only effective if it is seen. That's where Banksy runs into problems moving away from the walls of Gaza etc. And someone like Cobain does if signing with major labels, concert venues and mainstream media networks (if his idea was to create public opinion through his music?) There's plenty of methods of creating public opinion, protesting politically where you remain individually unseen, but making art is different. Political art is always really tricky and full of contradition. Also an artist needs to eat, perhaps feed their children somehow. There's a level of anxiety ridden naïveté here. The reality of the human existance even on an individual note is inevitably selfcontradictory in many ways. Kilometers of great literature discusses the problem. Somewhere at some point one either reconciles to some degree with the total irony of this life or you remain childishly frustrated and either blame the world or give up on life (same same but different). I feel like they feel alone and lost in a loveless world of misunderstanding them and that leads to mental deterioration and can be extremely destructive. Not that I know that applies to Banksy, he didn't commit suicide. Several grunge geniuses did. Depression and drugs, loneliness and, trauma and unhealthy mental states, relationships etc that only creating music wasn't enough to heal. Going down the rabbithole isn't going to change the world, only reveal your inevitable part in it. And it's likely to be a realization thay differs from the hopes in the first place, it's true in many areas for many people. It's sad opting out has made the world miss out on great artists, but mostly sad they didn't find the actual help and support they would have needed to come out the other end. Money doesn't do that to yoi, and fame and fortune is really alienating if you don't have a very solid social situation diving in.

[@chronic_washere]

@@gnarbeljo8980 insightful comment

[@petersteel8021]

​@@gnarbeljo8980 The bodies of the fallen create a bridge to the promised land, maybe an individual's effort isn't enough to change the system, but we can learn from its failure. It's okay to be a part of a system that you try to overthrow. Some say that those are the ones who can form the sharpest criticism against it. A Biblical example is Moses, who was a prince in Egypt, he rebelled against the pharaoh's tyranny and led his people to the promised land , but wasn't able to live there. Sometimes we can't enjoy the fruits of our struggle, but it still has meaning.

[@gnarbeljo8980]

@@petersteel8021 everything wrong with America is neochristian fundamentalism and ultracapitalism and the two are used to enforce the other and it's a sick tragedy preying on millions. It's so twisted at this point people seem brainwashed. Not everyone mind you, just a massive amount of common folks. Stop using your tortured god as an excuse for everything and wealth and some imagined selfrightous endgame- glory as motivation. It's delusional. Just stop. This has no relevance on a channel dedicated to humanities and the arts. There has to be some kind of safe space for people, even Americans, who value these things, who value reasonable intellectual discourse too, from the so called evangelists of the triggerhappy west. Try to understand that please.

[@Tar475]

@@gnarbeljo8980 I agree 100% being an artist in this day and age isn't easy considering the economy, certain beliefs pertaining to media, and just what's really in style. If you make art through any source of medium whether it be as music, hand drawn/digital, abstract, or through literature, the people you surround yourself with will catch on to your hobbies, per human nature. How they react to not just the art itself but to how it makes you feel and why you do it, will show you if they are the type of people that you decide you want to have around you. I don't know how Banksy decides who he may have in his circle but I'm sure he has others to lean on and that care for him. As far as fighting this battle in the art world, the way it is now is something I believe started long before mainstream media today even existed. It's all the same as what took place in the past just a different face. I can only imagine how much different this conflict was before our time.

[@_Yeesh]

Your point about the art market not being about art but about profiting reminds me of David Harvey's thesis on the contradictions of capitalism - specifically the dicothomy value of use vs. exchange value. The artwork is not sold for its purpose of being art, but for the sole aim of reselling it, thus generating more exchange value. The same applies to real estate. Houses are built not as shelter, but as prospects of investment.

[@jnn6201]

Yes and no. Houses are bought for either purpose. I'd venture that the majority of homes sold are sold as shelters, not as investments. I bought my first and only home to live in. Many people do the same. The only art I own (other than my own and family members) are some woodblock prints by the Japanese artist Toshi Yoshida. Again, these are for my enjoyment. I have no idea if they are worth more now than when they were purchased. Nor do I care.

[@nunyabiz6918]

The fact that Kurt was going to name their next album, “Verse, Chorus, Verse” perfectly sums up the duality of his nihilism and his self awareness of capitalistic success that you’re referencing.

[@hrithikps23]

This reminded me of Welcome to the Machine by Pink Floyd. If you think about it, the lines "Welcome my son, Welcome to the machine, What did you dream? It's alright we told you what to dream" are so deep and hard-hitting to such an extent that it's terrifying. No one can ever really escape the system/machine.

[@jpcolindesign517]

As someone raised in a Latin Ghetto in the Los Angeles area, I can say for certain that ideals and political theories don't pay for food, rent, or medical care. I know a lot of artists from SoCal who want the big payday because it means they can live a decent quality of life. As much as I love Banksy, especially as an artist myself, I doubt he's living on Ramen. Who gets to decide what's excessive and what's reasonable? Perhaps that's a decision best left to individual artists. Judging an artist based on their willingness to profit from their art says nothing about how rich or wonderful the art is. Politics is the realm of deception and mental masturbation. I personally couldn't care how much or how little an artist wants in earnings from their work. Good art is good art, regardless of how much it costs. Be well.

[@adamgardiner5869]

Well said.

[@avgroaming7365]

I believe that Banksy wants art to be appreciated for how good someone believes it is and not for who made it. So in reality banksy's ideal would help out the artists your talking about as the quality of their work would have more of an impact

[@alexredfield1943]

The problem is capitalism then

[@egwagjsd]

Great video, I feel like capitalism ruins art in every medium. Paintings, street art, movies, video games, you name it. Sales, profitability and mass appeal often will trump creative liberty or experimental ideas. From my perspective as a game developer, I believe it’s why every AAA game the past decade has the same graphical style. Or why game studios often stick to a formula. I’m not much of a painter or “traditional” artist so this is what I have knowledge on, hope this has given some people a little insight onto my favourite artistic medium.

[@THICCTHICCTHICC]

Having 'profit' be the main goal of art almost inherently fucks it up. "Overworked and underpaid" isn't what you want to be when you're creating a project. Especially if it's one you're passionate about.

[@mimi-fm7hz]

You’re correct. I’m a traditional artist and it’s a huge issue. It’s pretty wildly known that making a profit independently is nearly impossible so many artists will turn to colleges/universities which are designed to make very marketable artists with similar art styles. (Calarts art style is very famous example of this)

[@egwagjsd]

@Major Cbass well no ofc it doesn't, but profit motive can suppress creativity to an extreme amount. this happens very very often

[@rag4877]

very true, to be honest only very few art forms are largely not for profit, with stuff like graffiti (not street art) remaining very much not for profit and for the sake of creating

[@krunkle5136]

I think the core of it is overt risk avoidance and laziness tbh. This is a problem under any system.

[@mhunt1094]

I have to side eye Banksy's shredded painting because if Banksy really wanted to make a performance art-type statement, it would've shredded the piece completely. It only shredded it halfway, so the piece wasn't destroyed but only looks partially destroyed. It lets the buyers have a circle jerk of thinking they're buying something "subversive" and Banksy gets to keep the check. Banksy's become a parody of theirself.

[@Mraquanetchris]

Banksy is recycled Situationist Art. Copied the stencil thing from Blek La Rat. Cobain hit every rock n roll cliche in the book. Still don't believe Banksy is one person. Cobain looks like he thought he was playing the industry, but it was himself that was getting played. Both Predictable and Marketed. As Warhol said " It's not who are. It's who they think you are. "

[@Skrenja]

@@Mraquanetchris Omg you must know everything about art. You're so edgy and different. 🙄🙄🙄

[@Mraquanetchris]

@@Skrenja Nope. Just history.

[@kelechi_77]

Capitalist Realism is one of the greatest books of the last 20 years, the points made and topics touched upon feel more relevant now than it ever did in 2009. R.I.P Mark Fisher

[@loganc6501]

Sure enough the contradictions inherent in capitalism are becoming too prominent to ignore for even the most gung-ho capitalist apologists.

[@gregoryoung5762]

A bit late to the party, but this video made me think of a quote from Disco Elysium's Joyce Messier : "That's how simple it is. One may dye their hair green and wear their grandma's coat all they want. Capital has the ability to subsume all critiques into itself. Even those who *critique* capital end up *reinforcing* it instead."

[@loganc6501]

Damn imma steal that quote

[@TheXavierfull]

How is someone suposed to escape this paradox? doing murals in public spaces?, opening a free gallery? even if he personally sells it at $60, there will still be people that will own/resell his works and trade them like investments and inflate his value due how much of a celebrity is now, i think the real answer lies beyond the monetary value taking away the meaning of things wich is tied to our capitalist society and only if we move beyond that sense of having ownership of a unique copy of and instead experience the beauty or understand the message of said art, i remember a quote that i like from David Aja (comic artist) "Id rather 10k people buy my art for 20 bucks than one person buying one single piece for one million, art should be culture for the people"

[@sycration]

Here's my idea: 1. Create a PGP key pair 2. Publicly, as Banksy, paint the base64 encoded public key onto a wall in crisp stencil letters 3. Make an original art on a large paper instead of a building 4. Scan it with one of those massive super-high resolution drum scanners that museums use 5. Burn the physical painting 6. Sign the scanned file with the private PGP key 7. Release the cryptographically confirmed art onto the internet, free of charge. Now there is mathematical proof that the artwork is Banksy's, but there is no original to be bought and sold by the art market.

[@fernandomaron87]

He could "kill off" Banksy and re start with a different moniker and different artwork style

[@Window4503]

Make it common and mundane. To quote the Incredibles, “When everyone’s super, nobody is.” The best thing Banksy could do would be to open his art in a way that’s freely available to everyone so that there is no rarity, so that trading is moot. Which would mean making only one piece that everyone could have or access without any uniqueness. Extreme ubiquity.

[@mynameis9389]

I think their point and Mark Fishers was to make revolution of insurrection happen no just the art or content about rebellion

[@rhodahaque]

Great quote. This video has doubled as an advertisement for the book itself, which I'm going to have to pick up. Interesting way of tackling Banksy and the unintentional struggles that have come about alongside his work and the mythos about his intentions. You've managed to discuss Banksy's trapping without using a cliché, which is very easily done when talking about his work so well done on avoiding that paradox!

[@TheCanvasArtHistory]

Thank you so much! And I'm so glad you're going to pick up Fisher's book! It's a super important read :)

[@redtro8678]

So the video sold you a commodity? xd

[@rhodahaque]

@@redtro8678 hah, yes you might say that.

[@TheSSEssesse]

The only thing Banksy could do to genuinely prove he wants to bring down the system is not only hyperinflate the number of works he puts into circulation but also destroy his own brand. When ‘Girl With Balloon’ cutoff half way and didn’t fall into pieces on the ground, I knew he was full of shit.

[@DS-fm1ej]

Ok ok.... let's catch the hypocrisy in ourselves, banksy 'opening the store' - excuse me - capitalism & art (which is nothing more than a worked fart of the mind) consumes itself hand in hand - critique was part but it is the art now, ain't no 'bring down' or 'destroy' the system - it's another way - to belong - to be a part of - an angst of....©®™

[@sparkyfromel]

at the Sydney art gallery , there was a collection from some rich American woman there was some excellent pieces , some good Renoir , which I don't really like , a striking Monet , the best I've seen and a completely unknown whose painting was a small sailing boat under the moonlight , it had a powerful oniric effect , truly emotional I concluded that for the woman to have included it along famous artists , she was collecting for value not for price

[@trentuberman]

A couple of years ago a Banksy painting appeared on a random road near my house in Nottingam. People quickly trashed it and then the wall on which it was painted was sold to a millionaire. It was sad.

[@tri0bvial390]

I love the use of 'One' from Metallica as a background music since it's about a man trapped inside his own body and can't wish anything else but to die !

[@gsly6081]

One? That's more like a semi heart shaped box to avoid copyright. Cobain type beat.

[@mahbodfx]

2nd Episode of "Black Mirror"'s first season "15 Million Merits" is about this trap exactly, messed with my head and was hard to forget, now this video made me think about it again. Damn.

[@andrewbonville1631]

I think it's not just rich people who make the art market inaccessible. Artist themselves see how much other people's art go for and then try selling their art beyond its means. It's also very difficult to put a fair value on art. Art is very subjective, every person values the same piece differently. So if you don't value/can't value a piece of art to be millions of dollars, then don't buy it. The art that sells for that much money is only a small percentage if art sold. It's just the art that's popular because it sold for that much. Art is like a hobby. There's "underground" less popular routes of entry that, for a true enthusiast, are accessible. Kind of like how you mentioned, you expressed your desire for people to buy art they like, and I think a lot of people do that. Just not the people who spend millions of dollars on art. And you only hear about art that was bought for millions, because thats more news worthy than one that wasnt. It's the same thing with cars. There's a lot of ways for real enthusiasts to enjoy what they enjoy about cars. The enthusiasts dont often spend millions of dollars, but rich people who arent enthusiasts do. Idk I'm not super knowledgeable on art itself, I enjoy watching other people talk about it. But I think there's a lot more at play here than just capitalism bad or rich person bad. I still really liked the video, you always put up such fun, opinionated work!

[@gabrielmondor4290]

As a emerging artist, it took me so many years to think about an escape to this paradox and I personnally found my way of doing it. I add two simple things in the contract when something is sold : First, you cannot resell or donate the work. You can only keep it or GIVE it back to the artist. Second, to make sure that this piece can also be seen and experienced by other people, I can, with a two months notice, borrow the artwork for a show and then give it back. Added to the contract, I feel like now any people that wants to buy art is for an artistic/experiential value and nothing else !

[@Alex-cw3rz]

Art is also used as a way of laundering money and dodging taxes

[@poindextertunes]

Art, to me, is any work that invokes thought or emotion

[@anno2508]

“Art should comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable.” -Banksy

[@fazehank5311]

too bad he sucks

[@greatcrispy1]

It seems like the New York Kiosk was a pretty powerful form of protest- only because it wasn't a spectacle piece on every late night news channel. It is also an interesting way to redistribute wealth, bc anyone could afford those pieces, and then resell them to "rich" collectors. But it also doesn't "hurt" the market.

[@rupertkennedy7964]

That was a fantastic description of the artist's dilemma. I'm reminded of Erased de Kooning and R Mutt.

[@bicyclist2]

This is exactly the kind of YT content that needs more attention. I greatly empathize with both artists. I wanted to be a professional artist as a kid. I've seen the great documentary on Banksy that includes the clip shown here. I'm old enough that I was saddened by the death of Kurt Kobain as a teen. Thank you.

[@GS-vb3zn]

To me, the solution for Banksy is a simple one. Stop the mystery. Stop being anonymous. Let the air out of the proverbial red balloon as it were. He needs to unmask himself, verify that he is indeed Banksy. Become accessible for a while, give interviews, appear on podcasts, television etc. etc. continue to make his art but not stealthily on buildings and bridge overpasses and the like. Make it for the masses. Make it for the consumer culture. Put every new work on a plastic cup, a water bottle, napkins… and destroy the original. Everybody who wants to have a work by Banksy shall have it. It just won’t be exclusive.

[@JohnnyArtPavlou]

Right. From Supreme to Sub prime.

[@finezyjnafantazja2495]

Not all aritists want fame. Oscar Wild in his book Dorian Grey by a voice of one of book characters says that he doesn't like how peopletry to analize his brain instead of thinking about the creation itself how it makes them feel.

[@78deathface]

It’s fairly well-known that Banksy is Robert Del Naya from Massive Attack

[@Foolbool_]

An artist has no obligation to their audience. By making their own art, they can create an escape from the paradox that can be followed by those who are present.

[@watchingtheworldcollapsesl127]

But everything they did to fight the system was their own art, thats what was being sold, hence the paradox

[@fender4473]

I feel as though this is the answer

[@capoeirastronaut]

Basquiat was the more tragic art case. Ai Wei Wei uses the spectacle, finding his voice through it.

[@taouinche]

It would seem that income generation has become the only enviable horizon. Art is therefore a particularly attractive vector, under the right conditions it produces income without effort, i.e. without associated costs. What a treat for investors who do not even need to be interested in the object itself or in art in particular to benefit from it. The artists becomes, whether they want it or not, the suppliers of commodities for speculation. Great video, thank you for your work.

[@stephenmorton8017]

well the premise is that art must be a rebellion, which i reject out of hand. another is that spectacle is bad, but that's what art pieces are when tossed into the fray. what you are talking about is decorations for rich folks. of course they want them to accrue while they try to impress their friends that rarely come over. here is the base desire of an artist: to sell something and make enough to continue. Van Gogh's great failure. he continued anyway. the only thing Banksy is actually trapped in is a style, he has made his bank. (ha!) you didn't mention NFT's which are the attempt to commoditize work made in the digital realm that are infinitely reproduceable. NFT's are the attempt to get your tens on the untenable. what they actually have achieved is to make fools of the buyers. Maxfield Parrish saw all this and reveled in it. it all goes to motivation. why are you making these paintings, etc? to satisfy a need? just to kill time? or is it just to make a buck? i don't think humans made cave paintings to rebel against hunting, but to brag of kills. the idea that art must be a rebellion may have come from the desire to rebel against being sent to a senseless war that cuts ones career short. rebellion against style just results in another style. one can rebel against painting and just stop painting. too bad for Duchamp.

[@stephenstruman7235]

When you go to a museum there’s the peace that should be your favorite and then there’s the peace that really should be your favorite.

[@willhamilton297]

I think it says something that it took me 19 and a half years to find an artist that I actually genuinely appreciated in any way. The world of art is entirely cut off from the general public in most ways, and it feels unreachable even though there are so many places to go and enjoy it. Since I found Beksinski, I’ve really taken a dive into his work and history, what inspired him, and feel genuinely like I’ve made a connection to some kind of art, and it feels incredible. And for like, 90% of people, I bet they haven’t had anything close to that, which makes me really really sad.

[@willymack5677]

Jordan Peele’s film “Nope” leans very heavily onto the idea of making a spectacle out of something. Very much in line with what you’ve explained here. Great work

[@der_noa]

There is, in theory, a way to escape this trap, although it is admittedly very destructive 💥 Of course, the most organic way for the paradox to end is for the discussion around the artist in question to naturally die out over time. However, the duration of this process is directly tied to the artist's fame and can last a couple of months all the way to multiple decades - The more famous an artist's name has become, the longer it will take. It's a positive feedback loop. Some artists eventually reach the status of legend and become these mythical figures, cemented in history and almost synonymous with their trait. I'd argue that Cobain had already become a legend before his death and there was practically nothing that could've changed anything about it, including his own death. Banksy is at a similar point now. Every critique he will ever voice in the form of art will ultimately feed back into this terrible loop because this is the very essence of what caused it in the first place. There's not a lot he could do in this situation to stop this madness. His name has already become a brand and everything associated with that brand is being sold for millions, no matter what it is... although... One way to end this cycle... is to violently bomb it. By sacrificing his career and tarnishing his own name, Banksy could possibly taint and deface this "brand" enough to the point the loop breaks. It has certainly happened to many celebrities before, although accidentally most of the time. This is of course not an option for most artists in this situation because in doing so they would ruin their career and also the rest of their lives. However, the actual person behind "Banksy" is cleverly protected by their anonymity, so they would at least still be able to live a normal life. For Banksy, whoever he might be in reality, this last-resort kind of act is like pushing a big red button labeled "self destruction 🔴". The only question remaining at that point is what act would be horrible and violent enough to cause such a nuclear meltdown 🤔

[@claykline2830]

if he is already anonymous he also could just be a different artist, change up his style a little and use a different name. frame the banksy name on someone else possibly or keep the mystery up while he makes art out of the feedback loop. if his whole essence is spectacle without him being even there , then he could slip away very easy to make different things. I'm sure he has already done this to an extent and with the copycats rampant than this could be a freeing strategy

[@der_noa]

@@claykline2830 true, true. That would definitely work for him if he wanted to leave Banksy behind and just go on. But if I were him, I'd enjoy the thought of destabilizing a part of the art market and possibly causing a few of those people to lose money in their "investments" Talk about going out with a bang

[@claykline2830]

@@der_noa I wonder if he has an obligation to fight this paradox now. I think he's profited from it on purpose but I think there's a point where he'll do something interesting with it. That would be a great feat

[@der_noa]

@@claykline2830 it sure would be

[@MrAcidKnight]

A video on Gao Xingjian would be incredible. His artwork is so breathtaking.

[@hollowedboi5937]

True. Helluva lotta horrendous things shown on tv over much good things, always favoring massacres, hate, and drama, while also desensitizing us to the things we see on a daily. Things like the sky turning orange, wars overseas, shootings sometimes just minutes away can be a commodity for news outlets to get the worst things. What used to be a tragedy has turned into a spectacle of reality put on repeat.

[@joanalosm]

6:20 Does anyone really believe that Banksy's work of art destroyed itself spontaneouslly? This action involved a huge, complicated mechanism hidden under a disproportionate frame for such a simple print. Does anyone believe that an auction house does not eximine thoroughly all items that enter the building? If they didn't, it would be an easy way to introduce a bomb into an auction -killing rich people, by the way. This "accidentally destroyed" work of art tenfolded its price in just 30 seconds! Banksy may be indeed a genious in artistic terms, but he is also a "capitalist genious": he knows what the "bourgeoisie" wants and is willing to give them exactly what they want - and he sets the price. As Charles Baudelaire once wrote, "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist”. The greatest trick pulled by every "alternative" artist is convincing everybody that he/she is not a mainstream artist, as in fact he/she is.

[@loganc6501]

Don't you think the problem is more so with a system that emiserates all, which also has the unique ability to twist even harsh critiques and the critics from whence they came into new profit-seeking ventures? Don't you see the devil (if he exists) would surely be the monster undergirding all of capitalism?

[@blujayfly]

This reminds me also of basquiat and I am curious as to how you would analyze the paradoxes of his artistry...... Gonna have to buy that book now !

[@missyrivas8623]

I just paused the video to do a happy dance that you're referencing Capitalist Realism because it's SUCH a great book

[@uniquewierdo3757]

This topic is so good i can watch hours of videos about it even if none of these videos have anything new to offer. Seeing people care about it is enough even if it makes no difference. Thanks

[@Paul_Vaughn]

I think you really hit the core of the issue in one of your last points before the conclusion, "...they'll participate, contribute, and empower the very thing they hate, without any meaningful chance of criticizing these institutions." While you argue that there is no good out for Banksy to take, I argue that the only way forward for him and others in this trap is to continue on, regardless of what institutions or impact exists. So much of today is focused on the taking away from, the taking of, the taking down; all forms of taking that overwhelm opportunities to give. Some things must be opposed and their power taken from them, but others, I would say most things, should be overwhelmed by what you have to offer, what you can contribute, what you can give to them. Your community, your politics, your articles, your art; all your ideas must be given freely, for you only give value to what you create if you artificially make it scarce. Don't fall into their trap of creating your own scarcity; create to create, and let the value you see from it come from the impact it has on others. Don't take your art with you to the end, give as much as you can while you can.

[@SDW90808]

8:15 “… they become a spectacle; a show comparable to a Netflix movie.” On a different scale, but not unlike what is happening in Ukraine.

[@robwaters2948]

Asking in good faith: what does ‘the spectacle’ have to do with the Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[@neonsashimidream1075]

This was mind blowing. It's one of those things that I'm sure most of us are intuitively aware of at some level, even to the point of it causing extreme frustration and anger, but, at the same time, is difficult to articulate. Brilliantly done.

[@EmmatheGaymer]

"What if one of these paradoxes prevent you being who you are?" thats basically my life as a trans woman, if i present as myself, something that makes me feel happy and complete, then the world hates me for it and makes my life very difficult, but if i present as the world wants me to then im depressed and struggle to get through life.

[@EmmatheGaymer]

@Mitthenstein I am not allowed to forget about transphobes because they are an active threat to my life and make me feel unsafe.

[@alex199273]

I love the way you talk with such a calm voice…. now, I’d love to see your bloopers and retakes. plzzzzzz

[@wakkawakkagaming3710]

Imagine having to write the script for this video, knowing that even critically analyzing this concept plays into the premise by creating more media to consume. Cobain writes a song against the system, which then becomes a product in it. Then this video points that out, becoming a product to discuss the product which itself was criticizing itself as a product

[@violent_world]

yeah because everyone's a Narcissist.

[@lindsayann9025]

Not many artists actually ever make as much money nor are as ‘recognized’ as most would like to think, until after they die.

[@burpworm]

I generally do think that most of what Banksy tries to express is shallow as far as anticapitalism goes but this gives a lot more insight to the place he has in the art world. I still don't exactly sympathize with the position he's in, because by now with his success the most he could muster in any kind of stunt is the exact kind of Simpsons style mishap that would obviously do well. I'm not saying he has to do a mutual aid project but it certainly would help instead of constantly headlining with what amounts to little pranks.

[@acefamilyguy]

I think it goes without saying that most artists are plain nihilists. Their own projects all amount to what they believe in the end which is that if my art doesn't matter, then none of my arts meaning matters

[@burpworm]

@@acefamilyguy I'm an artist with strong convictions for better things and was inspired by people who are the same and will hope to do the same thing they did. The nihism feels all encompassing but it all plays into this same spectacle problem. Humanity is rife with warmth and hope and meaning. I tried to fit a family guy joke at the end but I couldn't.

[@acefamilyguy]

@@burpworm but luckily there's a family guy 👦!

[@jonvia]

I feel that shredding the "girl with the balloon" piece showed a visual of the metaphor that you have to kill you self in some way to work as an artist or creative of any kind in the modern age. Kurt, supposedly, did that literally while Banksy used a paper shredder to show it. Im a musician in the modern age and its amazing how the industry really works as well as the people around you that want to tell you how to live your life.

[@Patrick-pc3vq]

Being an artist in a lot of cases robs you of an opportunity to live a normal life in modern age so it's a perfect visual metaphor.

[@SofaKingShit]

I once threw up at a painting exhibition but that was more a statement about the quality of the wine and the amount that l was nonetheless able to bravely consume more than any comment on the commercialization and commodification of the expression of existence.

[@THICCTHICCTHICC]

Performance art

[@Find-Your-Bliss-]

But you puking in that venue remains, nevertheless, disgusting. Only disgusting. Nothing more. Sometimes being drunk is only being drunk.

[@rga1605]

I remember reading Capitalism Realism back then, it showed Mark Fisher's struggle with this issue that there might be no escape, but his ending was tragic. We like to think that the contradictions of capitalism will be its downfall, but what if the contradictions make it stronger? If capitalism is antifragile, then things like what happened to Cobain and Banksy will be the norm. I feel there's another angle of the problem: an artist wants to be seen. Even if artists have an anti-system proposal, how to spread it without a market? I feel there needs to be discussions on how to promote alternative means to distribute art and how to conciliate the desire of every artist to be seen and a worthy critique of the system. Because one way to escape this is simply doing things for oneself and not publish it - that's what Tolkien did. I feel there will never be a worldbuilder like Tolkien again because he lived in a time that capitalism didn't have as much reach as today (it had a lot, but not like that), his work was only massified many years after his death. While there's an argument to be done that the original trilogy had a struggle for an artistic angle, later adaptations have lost it completely.

[@MrTomservo85]

Oh no, these poor guys were "commodified" and paid millions of dollars to do what they love doing! They were set for life and never needed anything ever again. Must be so hard.

[@delaybrainsshriver]

Really great doc. Another contemporary popular artist group I think that fits this paradox is the hip hop group death grips. Their online pranks and leaking free albums have got them a lot of worldwide attention while staying very cryptic and maintaining anonymity with their personal lives. The more anonymous they remain the more records they sell. They became more and more famous while they split up and just stopped playing live and kept posting random abstract art online. Def. in the vein of residents, Beatles, nirvana ? etc...

[@LfunkeyA]

both of these artists have openly gone for fame and success. everything else is your own projection. sure cobain was sick of the position he was in, and he dealt with it poorly. he did do everything he could to get there though, because that is what he wanted.

[@johannhawk8471]

What you want and what you get can differ. However projection or not the phenomenon of recuperation is still there.

[@sublimeister9630]

“I HATE the feeling of being trapped in a Paradox.” This “hate and angst” is a non sequitur because existence itself is a brief flux of paradoxes; for example, life-death, love-hate, subject-object, light-darkness are one process, hence a non-dual phenomenon. This “trap” is a “spectacle” which is called Maya-a play of infinite forces (read Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Richard Bach on the search for Perfection). “Rage, rage, rage against the dying of the light” (Dylan Thomas) is good theater but an unenlightened view of the Cosmic Oneness of Life (Alan Watts - You Are It). When you realize that “All is Vanity” (Ecclesiastes) then “Seriousness” becomes an unescapable disease of Will to Power politics via Ego, Wealth, and Pyramid schemes (see Oracle of Delphi’s 3 advice). Finally, this word “commodification,” which is objectification through money, happens throughout Nature, certain species gets objectified as food for survival, as sex for procreation, as labor for building societies & civilizations (see Thich Nhat Hanh on Non-duality and the Consciousness of Things). And yet in this Cycle of Life & Death, Nature provides each species with a means to survive. So instead of looking at it only in an object-subject divide, learn to view the totality in a holistic way then this suicidal Egos of Personalities or Nations or Cultures won’t trouble you so greatly. Judge a moth by the beauty of its flame-Rumi. 😊 OSHO-Life has No Purpose, No Goal… kzbin.info/www/bejne/bHayqXabiM5qgNk Tao-The 3 Treasures_vol.3-10 (oshoarchive.org)

[@gonzalo6890]

Man you got me thinking about existence with this one

[@bazotter]

Banksy made an entire theme park once. He's rich and loving it and the mystery/mythologizing continues.

[@Ten_Thousand_Locusts]

I think Banksy doesn't do it for the art anymore, she's seen what people do with her art and it's made her give up on actually creating anything that has a message in it, because it will get twisted and corrupted into the exact thing she's always rebelled against.

[@psuedo_levi]

Wait, Banksy is a woman?

[@Ten_Thousand_Locusts]

@@psuedo_levi yeah

[@psuedo_levi]

@@Ten_Thousand_Locusts cool

[@arbenzeka1098]

@@Ten_Thousand_Locusts stop lying. It's just one of theories and a very flimsy one.

[@Ten_Thousand_Locusts]

@@arbenzeka1098 how am I lying?

[@dimplesd8931]

I don’t deny Kurt’s mental and physical dependence struggles but as his contemporary I never understood why he didn’t just do what Dylan,Neil Young or Prince did? If you don’t like the spotlight stay at home until YOU wan to be seen/heard. Always have been always will be a Dave Grohl fan because he always seemed like he was having fun and looked like he’d won the lotto. My heart breaks for Francis Bean…. Great video

[@letoplaz8139]

Early to a Canvas video :) Thank you for making great videos & helping me discover my interest in art w/ the leftist draw-in. Excited to watch this video on such a tragic topic.

[@letoplaz8139]

The tradgedy of this universal commodification is that it has reshaped humanity to it's core. Capitalist sympathizers make the argument that greed is human nature, not realizing that it is not an argument for their cause, but in a way, the greatest critique of all.

[@avosmash2121]

Kurt didnt have angst that was baseless or objectless at all. I think he very clearly raved against specific people and themes in his work; particularly misogyny, fratboy culture, religious converative views, bigotry, shallow materialism, and especially 90s drug culture transforming his friends and himself into self loathing miserable zombies. He knew he was ruining his life with heroin and fame and knew exactly what he was talking about and I think had he been in a time such as now where it was easier to talk of the wors of post capitalism, gender issues and addiction/ mental health issues for guys publicly without ridicule, but admiration for it, he might have fared a little better, who knows.

[@danschneider7531]

I am not a fan of capitalism, but this is a very bad take. 1) Neither Cobain nor Banksy were great artists. It's interesting that not a single qualitative comment much less judgment wa suttered in the video. You spoke about the art as commodity and art w/o once speaking of the thing that is the coin of exchange in art over the eons: quality. 2) Hence you are a commoditizer. 3) You fail to acknowledge that both of them CHOSE to be commodities. It was not thrust on them. They were not trapped. They leapt inside the game to play it. Cobain's mental ills and addictions proved it was a bad move for him but he chose to be a rock star, he chose to marry a rock star, he chose to throw his angst and domestic abuse out into the world to commoditize it. And no one in the art world takes Banksy seriously as an artist. He is the embodiment of Warhol 2.0. He chooses to play his outrage even though he has IMMENSELY benefited by it, with little artistic quality given back to society. Even more than Cobain he is part of the PROBLEM- a sellout who pretends he's not a sellout. He's like David Foster Wallace was to the MFA writing mafia. 4) And look how you present this take, and all the other ones- you use a wholly generic KZbin perfected vocal style that is mean to connote depth, even as YOU and this video pile on top of the commoditization you claim Cobain and Banksy wrongly protested. Ans then you add to the lush emotionless narration with the routine butchering of foreign names- esp French and east European, and STILL don't see the utter irony of your plaint. in short, you displayed no critical ability, which sort of rhymes with the lack of artistic ability that is NOT MENTIONED re: your two trapped artists who banked millions in such a trap w/o providing any quality to society. And, as I type you have almost 30k views in a day, mimicking other YT narrators and complaining about a problem that, at least for your 2 'victims' is not really a problem. And how much will you get from YT for this shallow and disingenuous take? Are you trapped. or is it you that has YT in a snare?

[@acefamilyguy]

The separation of art and academia has been drastically reduced as to what really is important in art now I think. The kitsch and lack of ambition really works in the commodity that all art displays.

[@danschneider7531]

@@acefamilyguy Art and academia, in writing and film and painting are still in a deathlock- hello? It's what provides the forum for what your 2nd sentence states.

[@acefamilyguy]

@@danschneider7531 so why exactly is it that most pop culture art ends up gaining more traction in the public than it does in academia? Most people care what Marvel is doing than what Godard was doing for French cinema. The only people who seem to care are people in academia yes, but those are artists (or at least try to be) and not audiences.

[@acefamilyguy]

I can say the same for music. Chord progressions, compositions, and Timbre are intrinsically tied to how the industry and academia are at loose ends with each other. I mean how can you say they're a forum for such ideas when most academic students in music try to make an accompaniment for jazz and rock and the industry rap and pop?

[@cosmoeticalist929]

@@acefamilyguy Why do most guys desire Instagram gals more than smart women who can hold a conversation beyond the extent of their nipples? Your Godard-Marvel ex is a bad one since Godard himself is not that great a filmmaker. but let's sub Bergman or Kurosawa. Well, only 1% of any culture has ever cared of the arts and sciences and less than 1% of that 1% has ever been able to make good art, and another 1% or less great art. Answer- great art is HARD to conceive, understand and make. Neither Cobain nor Banksy come close, which makes the video nonsensical, but now he's past 47k views. Is that because it's a great video or clickbait? 99% or more chance it's the latter since his video is, as I point out, rife w fallacies and YT content creator cliches.

[@seandevine5836]

Banksy should make a work that, once sold, explodes and kills all the ghouls in the room. That would be real art

[@sunnyquinn3888]

We will never hear about the TRUE independent, individually expressive, outside-the-mainstream artists.

[@watchingtheworldcollapsesl127]

We do, but like the video says, theyre televised as spectacle, and it loses meaning once it goes mainstream

[@RepentantSinner86]

While Banksy has achieved significant popularity in the contemporary art scene, some argue that certain aspects of their approach raise questions about their artistic authenticity. One issue is Banksy's choice to remain anonymous, which departs from the traditional artist-audience relationship. Their anonymity allows them to evade personal scrutiny and accountability, while their commercialization of art by selling pieces for substantial sums also raises eyebrows. Another concern is the perceived repetitiveness and lack of innovation in Banksy's work. Some (included myself) believe that their art has become formulaic, lacking the fresh and creative exploration that many other artists strive for. Furthermore, Banksy has been known for provocative stunts and controversial acts, such as shredding their own artwork at an auction. Critics argue that these actions may be more about generating attention than genuine artistic expression. Additionally, Banksy is predominantly associated with street art and stencils, which, while a valid medium, some feel limits the artist's scope and contributions to a broader artistic discourse. Lastly, the overwhelming recognition and fame of Banksy may overshadow other deserving artists who have not received the same level of attention and commercial success. So, while Banksy has left a mark on popular culture, discussions about their status as a 'real' artist continue.

[@ttllymxico]

stick to eliza gonzalez and corey feldman you armchair philosopher

[@pickled_pear]

This video reminded me of a great documentary and one of my personal favorites, "Exit Through the Gift Shop". It documents the history of street art and graffiti, its commodification and how it grew from a niche and illegal art movement to costing billions in the eyes of those who don't appreciate its message. I still don't know if Banksy really _did_ take part in this documentary, but it's still thought-provoking commentary. This video really encompassed the feelings I had after watching that documentary on art becoming a commodity. Back then, I didn't understand why I thought Thierry Guetta's actions of using his connection with Banksy to instantly propel himself into the spotlight for money and sell out were... Wrong. And now I do. Thank you for the insightful video!

[@fynn9895]

That's funny, I recommended this today to someone actually, it might be my favorite documentary ever. It is made bý Banksy, rewatch it with the question 'is this real?'. Nobody knows if this story actually happened or not, and if MBW is who he seems to be, or a character?

[@gavingleemonex3898]

Helping the art market by protesting the art market helps artists and art lovers because it gives good press to those who uphold the art-form.

[@feilipu66]

How is banksy a victim here if he's the one selling his artworks at the galleries and creating all the spectacle? With Cobain it's more understandable, but with internet we have freedom to sell our artworks for whatever price to whomever we'd like, or publish it for free even. You want to criticize "capitalism" but you make a big auction of your own artwork, with all the spectacle of it being half "destroyed", knowing the story will add to publicity and value of the artwork. Why didn't he destroy it entirely, or why was it even auctioned in the first place. Looks to me more like virtue signaling rather than actual meaningful protest

[@mantronixtube]

he’s not a victim . idk what this guy is talking about .

[@redgoose0]

He didn't put the piece up for auction, the previous owner did. In all the rehearsals he did the piece fully shredded, unfortunately this time something went wrong. Nobody is saying banksy (or kurt) are victims here, they are just rebeles, whose revolutions don't change anything

[@THICCTHICCTHICC]

Banksy painted shit on street walls. People started cutting the fucking walls off the sides of buildings to sell. I'm not saying Banksy is a 'victim' here - but his intentions to make art didn't exactly line up with the intentions of random people who wanted to claim it as their own to sell it.

[@josephlinsner1549]

Very nice video. It immediately makes me think of the one who walked away -- J. D. Salinger. He made his mark on the world and then dropped the mic. He was lucky enough where his royalties from Catcher In The Rye allowed him to turn his back and live like a cultural hermit. Could Kurt Cobain have ever been so bold? He might still be alive if he did. What does the future hold for Banksy? I am sure that he could afford to just walk away ... but it's more fun to keep playing the game.

[@hunnybunny793]

something i find interesting about this is that it's a game that the artist can never win. every move they make, everything they say, even the strategies they devise--they only benefit those who have the upper hand, and that's both the wealthy and the system they've created to build their wealth indefinitely. the only true winning move is not to play. when they feed off of your art, perhaps it's best to let them starve

[@Patrick-pc3vq]

Yeah but then you cannot live from your art... a lot of people speak of simply creating art whilist working some other job but i can speak for myself i have never been happy working a dayjob as having my life revolve around something i do not like depresses me.

[@chrisbarnette7137]

The way you just described Cobain, was absolutely the best and most aware .. That I have ever heard.

[@cursedmuse6951]

Hey man, BEAUITFUL video, but as an audio engineer/music producer (self taught, not acclaimed or anything but whatever) you got a bit too many bass frequencies in your voice, listening with a subwoofer makes your voice boom and it's sort of distracting, you could do well with a high cut to cut the low frequencies out around 100hz and below, possibly higher but I'd try up to 100, or no higher than 200 first. Of course this is just a suggestion, please do what you prefer of course, as the content is beautiful either way! Much love, Chris (Cursed Muse)

[@redofthewolves]

The beast that is a modern spectacle was such an interesting villain for Jordan Peele's Nope. You can fight it, but it will consume you.

[@archebaldmurlok449]

thank you ive been wanting a more concise explanation of this point

[@michaelwilcox5168]

I can’t be the only one to see the irony of a commercial playing on the middle of this.

[@njmccormackgmail]

A political commercial here!

[@KeildaRedInk]

The greatest act of rebelling Is loving what you do regardless of the hate you feel. If only I could apply this in my artwork instead of seeing a failed product.

[@680production]

I actually thought about Clifford when you told me to think of a Blue Dog

[@ChirpX3c]

Anyone know what the background music is?

[@tinawartemann6556]

Metallica. One.

[@rottensquid]

Brilliant discourse! I find this kind of existential examination to be the most important kind of conversation about our world. Art may not be important (I say that as a professional artist myself) but capitalism as the world's premier means of social dominance touches everything. But as with all other social dynamics that capitalism touches and corrupts, the dynamic was there before the current language of currency existed. Capitalism, at its core, is based on ownership, and ownership has always been a problem, long before the game of buying and selling was added to it. People's unchecked "right" to own things, even if they don't need them, even if others need them to survive and can't have them because they "belong" to someone else, has always, always been humanity's dysfunction. In fact, it almost certainly goes back before there was such a thing as "humanity," or even homo-sapiens. Children starving while pack alphas hoard food is common among primates, an expression of dominance as animalistic as it is toxic. And this instinct to hoard as a means of displaying dominance pervades society at every level. So how does this relate to art, and the trap in which Kurt Cobain and Banksy found themselves? The trouble comes from artistic expression itself having social credit, and social credit, as we know, is just another thing capitalists want to hoard, to turn into power and then sit on. The problem Cobain faced was that the capitalists controlled the means of communication. Popular music was commodified long before he was born, and beyond the problem of his protests only serving to empower the things he protested, there was no other game in town, no way to be a professional musician and get his music to his fans without that capitalist machine. If he were alive today, it'd be a different story. He could simply put his music out on his own platforms, like Radiohead does, and set up a pay-at-will system. He could refuse to have his work on any platform that exploited it, and still make enough money to thrive. Alas, he didn't live long enough to see this day. But Banksy is a different story. Don't get me wrong, they're a genius. But I think they're too close to the problem. They're trying to play the art collector world whilst trying to critique it, and it keeps backfiring, because interacting with it at all only lends it legitimacy. The question I keep asking myself about Banksy is, "what do they actually want?" Does Banksy want to make art that critiques the art world? If so, why sell it at all, why not simply display it and then destroy it? Why not give it away to people they know won't resell it? The minute commerce becomes a part of Banksy's artistic process, they're already in the hands of the capitalists. I know that we all need money to live on, to survive and thrive in this increasingly hostile world. I make money from my art in order to make the art. But the great thing about making books is that the book will likely never be worth more than their cover price. With books, it's the content that matters, not the object itself, except for the niche market of rare book collectors. But because Banksy plays in the realm of original art, he's stuck in the realm of creating objects which can be commodified by capitalists. They could avoid this by not creating objects, but merely the idea, like a cheap print poster instead of an original work. But they choose not to, because they can't let go of the original art and its attached worth, while at the same time, angry that this worth is commodified by the art collector racket. Even the art itself is steeped in Warhol's commercial pop-art concept, made if easily replicated stencils rather than one-of-a-kind paintings. To my mind, Banksy is trying trying to have their cake and eat it too. It could be I'm missing a layer of what Banksy is about. But it strikes me that their protestations are a tad performative, considering they operate in the world of galleries and collectors, insurance scams and assigned value. They don't have to do that, certainly not if it's the very thing their work is meant to protest. To be clear, I'm on the side of those protests. I'm just not entirely sure Banksy is.

[@SuPeRNinJaRed]

Not only a paradox but serendipity when you told me not to think of a blue dog I no joke was finishing up an illustration with a BLUE DOG on it, I know you might not eblieve it but I nearly screamed aloud "NO WAY" when I heard you say that at the beginning! SRSLY

[@allgotterer]

And, of course, the "answer" to this dilemma hides in the statement with which you end this essay: artists who embrace the paradoxical situation in which they find themselves must face the absolute probability (not Fisher's "anything possible") that they will end up dead and their life's work subject to the shredding sands of time.

[@smileyp4535]

Surely banky can use his wealth and influence to fund revolutionary groups (especially in the global South) if they truely want to make an impact with their art, sell it rarely for large sums and invest those large sums and use the money to secure loans that can then be paid out to revolutionary parties for educational and power securing purposes and then build up that community on its own to then move on to the next one and the next, and so on and so fourth. I think the time is right that this may be possible

[@Leenzzz]

But then this would also be implied to awareness. The more awareness you bring to a certain topic, the more the topic is known. Meaning if some one didn't know about something terrible, now they will actively know it and may also indulge in it. The Question is, should that stop people from voicing their cercerns to the society. Very Real and Unfortunately Scarring concerns.

[@MarcusWeathersby]

I feel like the difference is that Kurt Cobain became a part of the system against his will and Banksy is criticizing it knowingly from the inside. And therein lies the rub. Embracing being a part of the mainstream art community and using that platform to get your point across.

[@fernandomaron87]

Not against his will, he was writin pop songs and recording albums knowing what would come after, i believe he enjoyed the idea of being famous, but hated it when he got there.

[@MarcusWeathersby]

@@fernandomaron87 Maybe. There are different levels of fame. I don't think he ever expected to be an icon, and he genuinely hated being called the voice of a generation.

[@Jesoterica_Medium]

Thank you for bringing like to this very real issue. This can be a very difficult, and damaging thing to deal with, not only for society, collectively, but especially to the artists in question. I can relate, on a very personal level, to the experiences of Banksy and Cobain, in this context. I was a professional athlete, and although extremely well paid and glamorized, it was to this very environment alone, that I felt I lost my entire sense of humanity, meaning, and value. I felt completely objectified, and every move I made; no matter how bold or controversial, was viewed through a lens of dollar signs, by those around me, and following my career. It was inescapable, and incredibly unhealthy. I ultimately came to the conclusion that the only way I could find myself again, would be to literally walk away from the sport that I had dedicated every aspect of my entire life to. It can be difficult, from the outside, looking in, to understand just how detrimental the damage from this, can be, to a person, but I can tell you, first hand, that it is severely damaging, and that damage penetrates deeply, into the ways in which one ends up seeing him or herself, and the world around him or her. It is a very dark, and hopeless position to be in, and it absolutely destroys a person's passions, causes him or her to feel trapped in a world of consumerism and shallowness, that lacks all traces of true humanity and the meaning of life, and generates an immensely bleak outlook on society, and humankind, in general.