S4#5. Hybrid Electric Engines - What THEY don't want you to know! Grande Motte Boat Show.

While interrupt our cruising on our Leopard 45 catamaran and the Portofino 52 aluminium boat build this week we travel to La Grande Motte for the Multihull Boat Show where Portofino has a stand.
The big dilemma remains regarding electric, hybrid, regen and hydro-regen with many providers telling us different things but we become aware of the risks to our boats from the hybrid designs that no-one seems to be telling us about and even when directly asked they seem to shrug shoulders and act as if it is not a big deal.... When you risk burning out your gearbox, having to change you cutlass bearing every 2 months and lose you sterndrive seals or damage your prop shaft, these need serious discussion! We also want to hear from all of you about how significant these issues really are....
We check out new innovations for sail handling, carbon fibre and GRP tenders, and give you tips on how to check the quality of the painting of any boats you are looking at and the pros and cons of wraps instead of paint....
Also meet the new owners of the future Portofino 52s and our Patreons who we share time and stories with!
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[@the_ayesha_khan]

Hey guys thanks for the vid, the OC Tender 330 in carbon (most similar to the AST is actually 39kgs

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

My error - there spec sheet reads nett hull weight 48kg and net carbon weight 39kg. Does this means they produce a non carbon dinghy too or that the other fittings on the boat are 9kg? It certainly was not clear on the spec sheet and I have also sent OC an email for more info about their certification and ability to beach.

[@the_ayesha_khan]

Hi John, yes they produce a non carbon version too. Obviously ladder and anchor and oars add up to a bit so they would be added on, so best to start with the lightest imho. Point to note, under bags, oars, seat foam blocks are all standard on the OC, just extras such as anchor kit and ladder and bow locker compartment enclosure can be added. I'll stop now as starting to sound like a salesman!! 😅

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

@@the_ayesha_khan Thanks for clarifying! Do you know about risk with beaching - I heard separately that small stones on beach can crack the carbon so it is not recommended. Is this what OC recommend?

[@the_ayesha_khan]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 I think if the dinghy is light enough you drop the wheels and pull it up the beach. There is a rubbing pad on the centre and I think you can add additional protection as an option.

[@juergenzenner4219]

Very interesting arguments… Let see what experience the “Gone with the Wynns” with the Hybrid Electric Engine have.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Indeed Juergen - clearly there are unsolved problems that need to be addressed! We don;t want to be the guinea pigs with this as well (as being the first P52 build!)

[@39lp]

Only 9k views? The video and the technical discussion below are the best of any KZbin video. Really knowledgeable and helpful discussion. Much appreciated. But you have to get the view count up.

[@nooneanybodyknows7912]

You obviously don't watch very many sailing channels if you think this hasn't been covered in depth on other channels to a higher degree.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks M for your kind words of appreciation and support. We only have 15K subscribers so 9K views is not too bad but we hope to be getting many more in the future!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi No-one, we were not trying to do an in detail summary of the systems but trying to ask a few questions that we have either not heard and certainly no hybrid producer has offered as issues. It's only the mechanics that fix the broken cutlass bearings, shafts and seals that brought my attention to some of the diesel hybrid problems. If you are very knowledgable, what do you think of the Betamarine emission levels that are used in the HH and Wynns boat, given that this is Kubota?

[@gonewiththewynns]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Hey John and Eli! I do feel you on the frustrations of trying to sift through all the sales pitches to get through to the real information. It’s like an Easter egg hunt…but not fun. It’s incredible some of the things we hear the manufacturers claim. We can only speak from our personal experience but more than happy to share if you ever want to talk shop. Because we know how hard all the decisions were for us and you guys are really going custom, so you have even more decisions to make. But, you will have a beautiful boat fit perfect for you in the end (sooo worth it). I wanted to chime in on the comments about our Beta Marine engines. The Beta 30 (our engines) & 38 passes US Emissions EPA Tier III and EU RCD 2 Emission controls. It’s also common rail which is one of the reasons it’s great for our parallel hybrid application. Beta Marine is manufactured in the UK and has been used for Hybrid systems there for a long time, especially in narrowboats (which is where we first learned of the system). Some of the larger Betas do not pass some emission regulations (perhaps you thought we had one of those or that it was all BETAs?). That said, if you have discovered reputable information that proves otherwise, we would very much appreciate a link to the info. But, Beta is not the only option, Yanmar is also offering a parallel hybrid option now too! So the technology is getting better, more reliable and it’s all very exciting to watch it all happen. Happy hunting.

[@39lp]

@@nooneanybodyknows7912 What channel do you think has covered the topic well? There are so many that it is difficult to sift through them all. I find John and Eli approach topics without ego or hype.

[@geniexmay562]

As usual very valuable info. Excuse me while I rewind a few times 😄👍

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Great to hear! I learnt more when I replayed the video too!!! So much to try and absorb...

[@MHow1900]

Thank you for the insightful information about electric motor issues.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Glad to help, MH!

[@marktaylor484]

Fascinating and must have been like being a kid in a (somewhat confusing in parts) candy shop...

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Mark - very much so and still confused…. So much conflicting info!

[@mitchellmccaffery4220]

Interesting comments about the OC Tenda I saw the Wynns try to flip one during their testing you should check out that episode they tested lots it may save you some time.

[@ashleykerlin]

Came here to say the same thing. The AST guy ragging on the OC competition was not a good look. Especially when there's video evidence out there by the Wynns showing his claims are not true. They were standing on the gunwales without tipping over. The tender tipped to a certain point then stopped and was stable.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Mitchell, yes we have seen the Wynns videos and so the comments from AST were surprising. You will note that we did not assume it as the truth and are asking OC about their details.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for the comment too Ashley! We have never had one so do not know where the truth lies so first hand users without vested financial interests are always the best. Have you had personal experience with the OCs?

[@ashleykerlin]

No, no vested interest here. I only have a tinnie and sea kayaks, as I live on a little island near Straddie. But goals… Interested in your exploration of brands, as I've felt similarly about some of the different brands others have recently bought. The issue of wearing out bearings using regen is an intriguing issue. Also wondering why people are not talking wind turbines? Many of the boats moored around me have them. And why doesn't anyone talk about in-boom furling?

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

@@ashleykerlin Hey Ashley, yes we think there is not full disclosure about the risks from the "green" systems and most folk just accept the shoulder shrug as meaning there is no problem... WRT wind turbines, their output is so low compared to DC generators and even solar now that their noise, risk and irritation make their addition to be virtually token amounts of power...

[@kimblemooney2757]

Great review of Regen issues. Systems need to be refined

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for the comment Kimble and the trouble is differentiating the over promising from the truth and $20K later is too late....

[@gds6395]

Check out 'Gone with the Wynns' they have a hybrid solution with regen on their new HH44.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks GDS for you interest. We have seen all their videos and sadly their system is not working properly and the Kubota engines used by Betamarine are not green with emission levels so high they are not compliant with EU standards so can't be used for EU made boats!

[@77space-vt8wi]

Apparently the Wynns HH44OC/hull #3 hybrid with regen is an HH test bed for collecting regen and other performace data. HH is probably developing a curve chart depicting Kw applied vs knots and length of battery Kw time. Jason Wynn mentioned that he is expected an HH hybrid software a tweak that might provide a speed bump when the battery bank is selected for propulsion. Several variables to consider like boat weight, wind, current and sea state. Also sustained knots vs Kw expended with or without solar input for a giving amount of time. Then there is the propeller pitch consideration with a compromise setting for under sail regen vs a more aggressive setting during diesel engine propulsion. Is there a variable pitch propeller in the future for the hybrids. No question why HH has so many state of the art carbon HH44s on back order.

[@gonewiththewynns]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Oh the joys of trying to sort through all the sales pitches to get through to the real info. It’s like an easter egg hunt. The BETA 30 (our engines) and 38 passes US Emissions EPA Tier III and EU RCD 2 Emission controls which is why HH used these engines. These BETA Marine engines are manufactured in the UK and the parallel hybrid set up has been very popular in the narrowboat community (where we first learned about them). BUT, there are some BETA’s that do not pass some emission regulations so perhaps you thought we had another model. That said, if you have found information we are not aware of, please do share a link! But if you don’t like BETA and are interested in investigating another option, things are finally evolving and now Yanmar will be offering a parallel hybrid option too! And, there are a few companies working towards better propeller options that perform well for both Regen and motoring performance. But even as is, the regen we have been seeing is fantastic. We have a haul out, pitch change and software update next month which should put our motoring speeds back up (right now we’re only getting about 5.5 kts of cruising speed…hull #1 was a lot faster as they had different props) and keep our regen performance. Our system is working, just not optimal yet. So, we shall see what happens with all that. Overall, we’re pretty excited about the different hybrid systems, different boats and looking forward to watching the evolution of it all. If you ever want to talk shop, happy to chat. On a separate note, really appreciate you sharing your expertise and spreading awareness for medical and mental health! Kudos!

[@gonewiththewynns]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 We can only speak from our personal experience but more than happy to share if you ever want to talk shop. Because we know how hard all the decisions were for us and you guys are really going custom, so you have even more decisions to make. I wanted to chime in on the comments about our Beta Marine engines. The Beta 30 (our engines) & 38 passes US Emissions EPA Tier III and EU RCD 2 Emission controls. It’s also common rail which is one of the reasons it’s great for our parallel hybrid application. Beta Marine is manufactured in the UK and has been used for Hybrid systems there for a long time, especially in narrowboats (which is where we first learned of the system). Some of the larger Betas do not pass some emission regulations (perhaps you thought we had one of those or that it was all BETAs?). That said, if you have discovered reputable information that proves otherwise, we would very much appreciate a link to the info. But, Beta is not the only option, Yanmar is also offering a parallel hybrid option now too! So the technology is getting better, more reliable and it’s all very exciting to watch it all happen. Happy hunting.

[@angusmcbraith]

Thanks

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Our pleasure, Angus, glad it was useful!

[@gbsailing9436]

Good morning everyone at the show. I apologise didn't recognise Rafaele without his blue spot!! John and Eli, thank you so much for this exploratory look at the Grande Motte show. It is always great to see all the new gear and models available. Thanks also for putting in the advisory warning at the end. That should cause everyone to sit up and think. How did you come by that information? Did you piece it together by gathering all the facts throughout the day? Great work. Personally, if I was building a yacht such as yours, I think I'd like to keep each system separate to keep things simple. Things ARE going to break down (always at the worst possible moment) and at that time you don't want to have to deal with several different systems all impacting on each other. That will make fixing and replacing gear all the more difficult and expensive. The Portofino is a genuine explorer cat (as you wanted), when things break in the remote regions where you wish to go, you need to be able to get things up and running yourself! Utilise the KISS principle I say. What say you? Love your work as always. GB. Fair 💨's and following 🌊's - very little 💦 and ⚡!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Garth for the feedback and we will certainly try to KISS! We might just forget about the things that are not well established but we need top look into it properly.

[@gbsailing9436]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Yes True! Some tech is certainly worthwhile. You need to do your due diligence of course. When employing the KISS, make sure ... You book a room first! 😱🤣🤣🤣

[@pageadventures]

I was interested in your comments re hydrogen via ‘normal props’. The Wynns are getting 1.5kW from each shaft. With regard to wear on the propshaft, cutless bearing etc, we sailed from the Caribbean to Australia with the prop spinning the whole way as we had a fixed 3 blade prop - no prob at all 😉 (that’s a couple of boats ago). Our HH52 in build has a hybrid drives - they seem pretty clever.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Yes ewe were very impressed with the hybrid sales pitch and then I was informed that the Betamarine engines have extremely high emission levels, to the point they are not allowed to be used on boats made in the EU! I have emailed Betamarine but they have failed to reply... WRT cutlass bearing, we heard of a new one on a Beneteau with a spinning prop that was destroyed after a single crossing of the Atlantic along with their seals - so perhaps there are different forms of bearings that have different life expectancy. But either way, people should be informed and aware of what ones are suitable and not suitable for hydro-regen. But no-one is talking about it...

[@gonewiththewynns]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 We wanted to chime in on the comments about our Beta Marine engines. The Beta 30 (our engines) & 38 passes US Emissions EPA Tier III and EU RCD 2 Emission controls. It’s also common rail which is one of the reasons it’s great for our parallel hybrid application. Beta Marine is manufactured in the UK and has been used for Hybrid systems there for a long time, especially in narrowboats (which is where we first learned of the system). Some of the larger Betas do not pass some emission regulations (perhaps you thought we had one of those or that it was all BETAs?). That said, if you have discovered reputable information that proves otherwise, we would very much appreciate a link to the info. But, Beta is not the only option, Yanmar is also offering a parallel hybrid option now too! So the technology is getting better, more reliable and it’s all very exciting to watch it all happen. Happy hunting.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

@@gonewiththewynns Thanks for letting us know that detail because we have emailed beta marine and Hybrid Marine for those emission details on the engines but neither ever responded to us. So some of the Betamarine engines (yours) now have common rail as well do they because historically those Kubota based engines pumped out lots of fumes (when I was based in the UK) and were not allowed in EU built boats… They will all need to take on common rail in the long term and the Yanmars seem to be leading the field in the development of lowering emissions. We’re getting so much conflicting info and haf truths, it is difficult to know the facts from the sales pitch, esp with diesel hybrids and hydro-regen! Thanks for that info and hope they sort out your programming and motoring issue too! We also did a walk-through of the HH 44 at the Grande Motte show and will do a feature on it and if it’s okay with you we will say that you clarified the emissions of the engines for us. It is a spectacular boat and packs and awful lot into a 44 foot hull so congratulations on your boat. Enjoy your lovely yacht!!!

[@pageadventures]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 lots of good info! I know I wanted the Beta 45 instead of the 38 and that had emission issues in certain countries. The 30 and 38 were ok however. Unfortunately for us they can’t hybrid the 45 as the turbo is in the way, hence we’re getting the standard 38. The next choice is the props hopefully the pitch on @gonewiththewynns gets adjusted and we just do the same.

[@geofferyrobertson6608]

hydro-regent will continue to have massive improvements in the next 10 yrs ( my thoughts only ) , cutles bearings lasting 300hrs is a fair bit plus one could easily carry a couple spare ones

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hey, Geoff, we hope the improvements will be faster that 10yrs and yes, the cutless bearings are cheap enough but the hassle is changing them - many boats have to be taken out the water and on our Portofino we are hoping to be able to do it on the sand and have an easy release process...

[@RGF56]

Very interesting information there especially about the regen . Just goes to show nothing is for free 😉

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Sad but true! Thanks RGF.

[@LoanwordEggcorn]

Being able to regen efficiently depends strongly on the prop design. But it also depends on system design. If the electric motor isn't connected to the prop directly it probably can't regen. (Bell Marine makes excellent products. Their motors and controllers are used by Windelo, for example.) A smart way to do a generator, particularly for a serial hybrid, is to connect a conventional marine diesel to an electric motor operated as a generator. On an (series hybrid) electric drive boat, it would make the most sense to use the same type of electric motor for the generator and drive(s). This arrangement is already available commercially too (as a generator). This results in a much better performing, easier to maintain, more reliable, more compact generator (per power) than a traditional genset. If shaft seals and bearings can only last 300 hours, then how does any powerboat ever cross any ocean? Something about that doesn't add up.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for all info Loans. And yes, I asked the same question but it seems that powerboats and ships have different fittings that are designed to turn continuously. Those better durability fittings need to be fitted when using regen then but the brands and sellers are not talking about it... It was a beneteau that ruined new seals and cutlets bearing after a single Atlantic crossing from their prop spinning but they probably have cheap garbage quality fittings....

[@jackwickman2403]

The big problem in combined propulsion/regeneration systems is the propeller. It is simply not possible to optimize a propeller design for both functions. OceanVolt with their variable pitch ServoProp does better than others. A fixed pitch prop will be so compromised that it won't be good at either job. No amount of Computational Fluid Dynamics magic or salesmen's wishful thinking can overcome this. Consider that for propulsion, one side of the prop blade is high pressure, the other is low pressure. These reverse during regen with a fixed pitch prop. This makes it impossible to optimize the blade shape. Sail drive/pods that rotate 180 degrees offer slight improvement to regen, but now the prop blades trailing edge is the leading edge, so still compromised. Variable pitch improves this situation a lot, but at the cost of added complexity and money. Variable pitch that can adjust near 180 degrees can do well at both propulsion and regen. Adjusting more than 180 degrees can also improve reverse thrust. Having the motor also be a generator is not a problem. A permanent magnet motor and an alternator/generator are the same machine. The only difference is the electronic control unit connected to it. It is simple to make a combination motor/generator and they work fine. Not a problem. The big problem is the propeller. It's a hardware problem, and it can't be fixed with software.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Very good points, Jack! I presume they are trying to get the compromise acceptable so there is "good" regen and still enough propulsion. We will see but we certainly see them all still struggling to make it work well and still promising stuff that is not the actual truth (which is really annoying when trying to make sensible choices!)

[@user-lr4zk1to8u]

Why don’t you ask Leopard / Robertson and Caine why they are treating the owners of Utopia so abysmally! Seemingly rejecting the same claims that they accept elsewhere. Their after sales warranty can’t leave potential owners with much confidence.

[@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665]

They are not the only ones with SA built Leopards having build and warranty problems. There are two newish Leopards that have had a litany of build problems, then rectification issues. 🧐

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi LR, I do not know the specifics of Utopia's issues and the details behind it. There are several OEM issues that I was aware of (new high power alternators, Starlink, + solar panels) that are not Robertson and Caine build issues but aftermarket services and I do not know the relationship of the after market fitout folk and R+C. Any structural issues like leaks that we heard about would be R+C issues if caused by the build and not the OEM valves. So slightly complex and we don;t have any info to help....

[@nooneanybodyknows7912]

Travel Sketch has been treated far worse. I think they are close to 390 days on the hard.

[@ahminmabed5166]

Awesome show guys. I came across your channel when you were showing the Outremer 45 some years ago. I really enjoyed seeing the yachting accessories and hope to see more of what's on offer. As for electric propulsion, I've already done the math on the HH44 and quickly concluded that it's nothing more than a marketing gimmick. EP is only good for an anchor

[@77space-vt8wi]

Re:The HH44 comment. There are two versions of the HH44. One with dagger boards and one without and all that those extremely strong carbon/fiber boards represent. Everything is predicated on what one plans to use their HH44 Catamaran for. Performance or Cruising and 95% of time it will be on the hook with a magnificent sunset or in a Marina. The HH hybrid design has multiple applications that provided significant independent systems for electrical energy redundancy. Lose one system and you have three others as back-up. That' along with two HH independent diesel engine systems is what the customer want and are willing to pay for. Notice the maticulous HH installation, labeling and accessabilty to the wiring, Everyone wants peace of mind systems reliability, No I don't work for HH.

[@ahminmabed5166]

@@77space-vt8wi WOW!!! You left out "HH cats can fly a hull". However, you didn't mention that the HH44 hybrid EPis only 13hp each side and only good for an hour. Nor did you mention the fortnightly burning of engine anodes. By redundancy, are you meaning that the EP becomes redundant in a matter of minutes?

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Ahmin! The benefits certainly are not there for the cost and weight down sides. We thought that hydro-regen should be easy - clamp on a generator to the shaft and off you go!!!! Very wrong.....

[@lincolnlincoln27]

GOOD one!!!...... Like the exposure of the "snakeoil" of current regen tech.... at sea redundancy is mandatory IMHO..... diesel probably stil the best. have a separate regen setup to top off batteries if feasible & yield is practical..... looks like john is almost ready to do the barbary pirate thing with a braid & tar!!!!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Lincoln! Yes very much like snake oil salesmen though...

[@carlospereira9838]

That system works very well but uses alot more diesel than well designed serial hybrid. My design using 10kw electrical motors which has ONLY 2 moving parts. The shaft bearings which are SKF and rated to 50k hours. The last part is the encoder which is replaceable. (non moving part) The whole motor only weighs in al about 12 kilos. My design is all module which means I can swap out a motor in about 10 minutes flat taking my sweet time. I always keep a spare motor and spare controller that is already pre-programmed ready to go.

[@lincolnlincoln27]

@@carlospereira9838 Reliability on Passage is where it is at!!! s2wapping out parts while underway not good whether it takes 10 mins or 10 hours....

[@carlospereira9838]

@@lincolnlincoln27 I agree however the electrical motors is way more reliable than diesel engines because of its design. Brush-less motors only have 2 moving parts compare that to a diesel engine. You cant swap out a diesel engine underway you can swap out and electrical motor. I have repaired diesel engines underway as long as its not a bottom job and you have all the required parts and tools. I even replaced heads underway and trust me its alot harder than swapping out an electric motor that weights 12 kg.

[@seawench555]

Eli, u look absolutely stunning, John ur ok too😜Did u get me a vest an shirt, I'll pay for them, they look splash. What a fantastic vlog, so much happiness, fun and so interesting, thank u both so much for sharing all ur adventures with us. I'm soooo Excited. Oh size xl 🤣yeah another Aussie for Portofino, good on Clint. 🇦🇺 John, good call stay away from those engines please. I'm looking forward to the Hydrogen engines.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Nice to hear from you Karlene and do you believe Hydrogen will be the answer?

[@seawench555]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 oh I miss u both, wish I was there. Xx, please be careful

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi lovely. Thank you for your comment. Hope your world is wonderful ❤️

[@seawench555]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 My World is Wonderful, because ur both a part of it. 🤗

[@jackwickman2403]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 30 or 40 years ago a tech expert commented "Hydrogen is the fuel of the future and it always will be." Still true after all these years. We continue to hope and dream.

[@MrJerobona]

Very interesting episode! It's all so confusing as tech is changing so fast!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Yes Jero, we are trying to separate the facts from the snake oil!!!

[@ianh2674]

Good video folks.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks, Ian! We hope everything in your world is great!

[@ianh2674]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 all good here, just finished the Eid break here and back to the grind next week. Take care

[@meshedgears2794]

I was checking the Portofino web site and they have added some new photos, they are very nice renderings. The boat is going to be phenomenal, I bet you can't wait. I noticed the center board on the newer photos on the Portofino web site. The bottom appears to be pretty much smooth when the board is raised? If the bottom is smooth why couldn't you make a really thin cover? I know this is way out of the box, but similar to a car cover when you stop at anchor why couldn't you just pull a cover over the front of the boat hulls all the way to just in front of the propeller shaft? I am not saying you should do this, as a matter of fact I am just thinking out loud. I have heard staying for a month at a location the marine growth builds up on the hull, but if there is a cloth like cover under the boat being held up by a series of rope floats, it can stay tight to the hull. If the cloth is tight then wouldn't the space between the hull and the cloth be not hospitable to marine growth? I haven't seen anyone do this and I know making the "cover" work with the interior portion of the hull would take some creative thinking like maybe covering both hulls and inflating a couple center floats to pull the middle up. Again, just thinking out loud anything to minimize the scraping of the hulls right before heading to the next destination. I was also thinking this cover combined with the fresh water in the box for the center board would keep it clean. -MG

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi MG, yes weed and barnacles growing in the centreboard case are a risk and Raffaele has created an anode that releases a chemical into the space to suppress growth. The downside is that sailing and water movement dilutes the effect so your idea of a cover that the board slides between may be a solution. Overlapping rubber with a split in the middle May work with it bouncing back as the board is going up and down… Great idea!

[@meshedgears2794]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Wow that's cool, Raffaele is a genius! Do you keep the board down or up when your at anchor? I always thought that the board would be up. I am all for fast and efficient and less maintenance. I just thought being able to deploy a cover from the deck seemed like the best way to minimize the scrapping prior to departure. Happy Sails! -MG

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

@@meshedgears2794 Thanks very much, we'll see what Raffaele suggests wrt to the cover and when at anchor, the board can be up or down - when down there would be less drifting around in the wind but I think probably just outside the case at the end and in for the rest giving some resistance to side drift but holding the antifoam in the case.... Not thought about it before though!

[@TerryKeever]

Lots of variables and differences of opinions with hybrids. Hydrogeneration appears to be down the road to not have a lot of maintenance. A haulout every few months seems cost prohibitive. Looking forward to what you find out. Thanks for the deep dive.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

~Pleasure Terry! We need to get to the bottom of it!!!

[@fountainvalley100]

As far a propulsion goes I believe in keeping it simple. A simple diesel/gearbox into a shaft. If you want to dump the generator then get secondary alternators for the diesels and maximize solar. Solar panels are reasonably priced and simple compared to getting a hybrid drive. If you want to stretch you get electric drives with generators similar to the Silent Yachts approach.

[@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665]

That's the Windelo set up and they have had boats doing high miles journeys in all conditions from the start. The advantage is it's mechanically super simple and reliable with electric motors driving a shaft or sail drive and regenerating... The first Windelo did a N Atlantic loop no problem the e motors like the solar Yatchs only need checking every couple of years.. no maintenance.. only the shaft bearings can wear as the motors are brushless .. motor problems usually came down to a loose feed terminal..nut. Quality electric motors are very efficient and very reliable. That's why they are going to be using them on aircraft. They are also very quiet and compact. The advantage of the system is you can have two generators that only need to run when needed and at their Stoichiometric optimum. So use less fuel for less time. .. you have back up because you can have two. Plus the solar and regen going into the battery pack... Being totally modular motors, generators and batteries can all be updated only being connected by wires. This also helps with redistribution of wt. On a boat eg the generators could be located forward or split up forward and aft as can the batteries. There's also something you walked past ...submerged pod motors.. they can also regen .. but they take up zero space inside and cool by contact ... They only need cable holes in the hull unlike a conventional sail drive. There are regen sailing boats out there that have been run for years without wearing and tear... Ocean volt also produces modular onboard drive motors... their products good but V expensive.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Clive. So the two electric Bellamarine motors on the WIndelos are powered by 2 diesel generators are they? That overcomes concern of redundancy but negates the benefit of maintenance and weight.... And yes we did not have time to discuss regen pods (except Watt and Sea) but we don't want ,more stuff permanently sticking out the bottom of our boat and we need to beach.... Any Ideas? We are till needing more confirmation and what about one electric and one diesel on the other side (no redundancy) or just stick with the high output DC generators on the two diesel yanmars...

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks FountainValley! We are really keen on hydro-regen to get power as we sail but clearly it is not as easy as we thought it should be! We may have to stick to the tried and tested high output DC generators on the diesel engines.... (unless we find a good alternative).

[@carlospereira9838]

Simple works but in the long run you will use alot more fuel than going with a well designed serial hybrid system. My 49 foot aluminum cat has a payload of almost 7 metric tons and can carry 2500 liters of fuel. It is designed for extreme north and south latitudes. It also will have a fuel range external bladder pf 600 liters for a total of 3000 liters for an electric boat. Why carry so much fuel well for heating the boat as the heat pump does not work when the water is below 5 degrees. I can motor 5 knots for 25 hours straight on battery power alone then when the cells reach 20% SOC the DC generator starts runs for 8 hours then shuts off and now you can motor for another 25 hours. The serial hybrid design is the clear winner as long as you motor 4.5 to 5 knots however when that extra power is required then you have the same power as 2 diesel engines. So those 3000 liters will last you a very very long time.

[@fountainvalley100]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 You can do a cost benefit and weight analysis. Cost/weight of the additional solar on a solar arch versus the hybrid cost.

[@geofferyrobertson6608]

nice looking Tri-Cat

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Yes, many great boats were there Geoffrey!

[@39lp]

Have you looked at the possibility of using a dedicated generator device that you could deploy when sailing at, say 8 knots, or more? Are there any viable solutions out there at the moment? The reason I say this is that getting a reliable and efficient diesel/electric hybrid appears to be a difficult task. In engineering, there is the principle that a system's functions should be independent rather than interdependent. Optimising a single output towards one goal is more efficient/effective than optimising a system which has several constraints and more than one goal. You are trying to optimise a system where 1) the diesel engine turns the propeller shaft whose blades rotate in the water and propel the boat, 2) the diesel engine turns the generator which produces DC electricity to charge the batteries, 3) the battery supplies the electricity to the generator, but operating in reverse as a motor, which turns the propeller shaft to propel the boat, and 4) when under way, the flowing water turns the propeller which turns the generator to make electricity that is supplied to the battery. This is quite complex - especially in a developing industry. It is most likely to be sub-optimal. Like the fighter/bomber - you can end up with a system that doesn't do anything well. It violates the KISS principle. I'm not sure that is what you want on the high seas. But I'm really enjoying your journey, whatever you decide.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for your comment MOC and you are right on the money! We thought it would be a simple matter to use the props for hydro-regen but clearly (as you say) this is not simply reversing the process. Naivety is a wonderful thing!!! And as you say the industry is still in the developing stage with lots of snake oil sales men and undiscovered problems in the systems that are being pushed (eg Wynns). We will keep looking but it has to be reliable and not too heavy - most dials hybrids add 100kg each side for $20K each!!! You still only get a few hours motoring capacity....

[@39lp]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Another thing is that it doesn't seem to be worth the effort. The producers were talking about 1kW from regen. But you could easily have 4 kW from solar. Realistically, how many days/year do you sail for in regen conditions? Probably less than one month, maybe much less. Whereas, you could have sunshine for six to eight hours a day producing solar power, when on anchor or under way. Maybe six to twelve months of the year, depending on your cruising calendar? On that basis, solar could produce ten to fifty times more energy for you. It seems a nice-to-have - but a lot of effort for what it is capable of producing.

[@geofferyrobertson6608]

there is a bloke in OZ ( QLD ) that makes Ally tenders much the same design as what you showed , I'll see if I can find it again and post here for you

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Yes, we would be very grateful for that info. The Ozzies seem to do the best tinnies in the world!

[@leeoldershaw956]

The Wynn's HH44 generates significant power under sail put is too slow under power demonstrating a mismatch of the prop- gearing specs. Cutlass bearings need not wear out. We freewheeled a prop with a Paragon hydraulic transmission for 29 years and never changed the cutlass bearing and only tightened the stuffing box a few times in a 41 ft. Morgan Out Island. The hybrid may require a variable pitch prop for efficient dual use. The Wynn's are hoping some software changes will help but I'm doubtful. I think under power they're getting less than 5 kts and they should get 8.

[@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665]

Do you remember when sailing Uma uprated to an Ocean volt sail drive.. they didn't start getting the best out of their system till they had an update of the software controlling the prop pitch to role and boat speed in regen mode . On the high power 25 hp model the prop is balanced optimised to regen and propulsion. The pitch can be reversed. It can also be used in a tractor configuration... they reckon this is more efficient in both modes.🤔

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for that feedback about the cutlass bearing, Lee. That is helpful. We heard of a Beneteau that wore out their bearing and seal on one Atlantic crossing! Perhaps there are different types of bearing - what type/brand did you have?

[@carlospereira9838]

Their system was not implemented correctly the tech does work when designed and installed correctly with the matched Regen prop. The alignment and the prop is the key.

[@leeoldershaw956]

@barefootdoctorssailing8567 I don't know the brand since it was never serviced. I had a long drive shaft for a mid engine, full keel, enclosed prop, and a pillow block ball bearing center shaft support and conventional stuffing box. Cutlass bearings wear so that water lubricated them and then they don't wear much after that. I always had a little play that seemed to never get worse. The drive shaft was almost perfectly horizontal with the engine room under the center cockpit and full keel. The Morgan OI 41 was only my second sail boat after a Sunfish. I would buy the same configuration monohull again. No fin/wing keels, spade rudders, unprotected/saildrive props. Two autopilots, refrigeration, electric windlasses in my next life. Cats are luxurious but you have to be more careful. My ketch could handle full sails in 25 kts. of wind.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

@@leeoldershaw956 Yes, classic safe sailing boats for coping with anything!

[@OnTheFlipSide]

I have been researching electric engines for about 6 years, and here are my findings. The less you know, the more you believe you know. The more you actually know, the more you realise you know very little. 🤣

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Haha yep… I hear you!! There has been a lot of noise around this subject for some time for sure but the jury is still out … for me this week anyway!!! 😳- Eli ❤

[@LoanwordEggcorn]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Meanwhile lots of people are already sailing and hydrogenerating with electric drives.

[@mattclark6482]

Excellent information guys, There seems to be a lot of misleading information floating around out there (no pun intended). 3 months ago I was completely in love with the Windelo boats, but since then I've heard of Windelo owners tearing out the Bellmarine electric motors for diesel engines due to very poor performance from the electrics. Seems like you guys are doing your best to cut through the BS.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Glad it was helpful, Matt but I have not heard about the WIndelo folk not being happy with the Bellmarine electric motors. We are just about to release a video about their 54 and we had no idea about that... Where can get more info?

[@mattclark6482]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Hey John, so I read about this on a sailing forum somewhere (can't remember where), of course it's on the internet so can you believe it??? I will say if you do the basic math of converting an 18KW generator to horsepower you get around 24 horsepower per electric motor (assuming you have the dual generator setup). There's probably a little power loss involved in that conversion, so even that's being a little generous. 24 HP sounds good enough to get you our of a harbor but there are many strange situations that come up in sailing and that definitely seems underpowered for such a large boat to me. I personally would be wanting around double that HP before I would be feeling on par with other diesel powered cats.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

@@mattclark6482 Hi Matt, my understanding is that the 18KW is a DC generator that puts that power (almost) without loss into the batteries which can then use the full power over whatever time frame you want. If you have an 18kW electric engine you can use all that power (to 24HP = 18KW) while the diesels ranged at 24hp burn excessive amounts of diesel as they get to their higher revs so they are usually run at lower power levels.

[@gwebster6600]

Hi guys. If your interested in a cat dinghy take a look at what Scimitar boats on the gold coast Qld have to offer. Its top quality, made of foam and grp. Pretty pricey though.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for the tip, GW! We will be looking at Aussie tenders as we should get really good tinnies there!

[@user-hv8ir2ef6r]

There's very few world class sprinters that are also world class weight lifters. A propulsion system is designed to propel, to push where as a Regen system needs to be pushed. So take your pick, efficient propulsion system or an efficient Regen system, you can't have both using the same infrastructure. Personally I believe you're much better to keep your propulsion system simple, either diesel or electric but only for propulsion. If you want Regen then sure, use the power of the wind and your sails and create a hydro based generation system. Keep the 2 systems separate and designed solely for their intended purpose. I think you'll find it will be cheaper, more efficient and less maintenance.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for the comment HV and that is really what Raffaele is saying too! It seems like it should be great idea but no-one has gone public with the downsides and complications so we are trying to get the discussion happening....

[@user-hv8ir2ef6r]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 There's some great stuff out there for hydro generation and electric propulsion. Axial flux motors for one, super light weight, small footprint and extremely powerful for their size and weight. Batteries are getting lighter per kw, down to less than 600g/kw. I believe the hybrid systems, specially with Regen are overly expensive for what they deliver and basically marketing hype. There's 2 different technologies, propulsion and generation. Sure some of the items are interchangeable but the purpose for each are totally opposite. You don't go to an ice cream shop to buy butter or cheese, both use the same main ingredient however their purposes are completely different.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

@@user-hv8ir2ef6r Thanks for the info about Axial Flux and what you say is exactly what was coming out from the show but the hybrid providers are still out there trying to sell their unproven gear at high cost, with little return as you say and with promises that do not seem to be realised yet eg the Wynns trouble with their system and only being able to motor at 5.3knots...

[@user-hv8ir2ef6r]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Yes I believed the technical term for such "info" is.... "It's a total wank" and bloody expensive at that! To generate substantial electricity from a 52ft catamaran at an average speed through the water under sail of 12 knots is like falling off a bike for a hydro electric engineer. The real issue is not the generation or Regen, the real issue is power storage. Batteries are getting better but they are still too heavy for a yacht to carry enough battery power to handle motoring via electric propulsion for any serious length of time or through heavy seas for hours on end. However batteries are not the only power storage method available, hydrogen is an interesting option, specially if the hydro generation is maximized. Then it gets exciting! In saying that though, I do believe in 12 months the weight per kw for battery storage will be greatly reduced even more. Once this is achieved, true self sufficiency with electric propulsion with zero fossil fuels can become a reality. Now that is worth waiting for 😀

[@carlospereira9838]

@@user-hv8ir2ef6r Forget about hydrogen its not worth it. Way too expensive with very little power output. Also the fuel cells only output at 50% max. Lithium ion is you only option for large battery packs.

[@limericcntelosnet]

It's all clear as mud, lol.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Exactly, Crystal! Also the misinformation is quite impressive too!

[@AntoineGrondin]

4kw for a 40ft boat at cruising speed is actually correct. It's just that the cruising speed is about 4.5kts. I've done the math and experienced it in practice. If you want to go faster, the power requirements quickly grow as it's an exponential function! 8kts will not require 8kw, more like 50kw!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Good to hear from you Antoine as the Waterworld guy never actually told us how fast the 40 footer actually went with the 4KW despite us asking repeatedly! That makes electric engines more functional.

[@carlospereira9838]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 That is bullshit not a 40 foot boat no way the math does not add up. You would need at least 8kw to go 4.5 to 5 knots. 1 plus 1 not does not equal 3. On my 49 foot cat you need 10kw to go 4.5 to 5 knots. Maybe on a flat lake not in the open ocean. That guy from water world is in a dreamland.

[@MrJerobona]

La Grande Motte is an amazing port city with its pyramidal buildings!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Yes very unusual, Jero. Apparently it was a building requirement that the local council put in place!

[@jimlofts5433]

re gen - have you seen sailing SV Lynx and there future set up

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for that link - I watched it and while a few of their maths and predictions were wrong, their decisions and detailed breakdown of the issue was well done giving the case for their long distance sailing to get their money back in saved fuel over the years and save $30K in 14 years...

[@garethevans9789]

The AC used in these motors isn't your household AC (or 3-phase from the grid). AC vs brushless DC is largely a mute point unless you're an electrical engineer (irritating tw*t). They all need controllers (most drones use "AC" motors). 4KW for a 40' boat, maybe on a canal...😅 It's a shame the sales guys such an interesting field just reguritate the same talking points (going on about them being quiet..🥱, 4KW will get you to 30kts..). Personally, I like the idea of pod motors as they take care of the sealing issue (it's much easier to keep the water away from electronics than an ICE, less moving parts). The hardest part of electic propulsion is how to store the energy. Many ships have being using diesel-electric engines for decades (for much the same reason trains use it).

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Gareth for filling us in here!

[@carlospereira9838]

A 40 foot boat would need 8kw at minimum to go 4 to 5 knots not 4KW. That guy needs to learn basic math.

[@jimlofts5433]

wear on cutlass bearings - vibration - see Aussie Thompson Couplers - good vlog

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for the tip, Jim!

[@jimlofts5433]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 be great if thompson could partner with you Aussies in your new boat to promote the product to the boating world - It may involve the barefoot doctors attending selected boat shows and demonstrating the coupler and the boat - win win and the visits would also grow your channel

[@geofferyrobertson6608]

that's a great deck on the bottom of the sugar scoops ! Question time ...... is that going to be the same on yours ?

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

I presume you are referring to the picture in the Portofino stand, Geoff. That is the Portofino 67 and the side deck drops down but we are not having that on the 52 :(

[@geofferyrobertson6608]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 , yes you are correct , it was that pic I saw

[@xZeroxNoid]

doesnt make sense that each manufacture is saying something different given that Oceon Volt has Regen options, and there is a few other companies that have created a hybrid propulsion system that encompasses regen with diesel engine acting as both a regen and propulsion if needed. All new HH Cats have this option.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Zero for the interest. The Wynns is a great example of lots of promise and they can't even motor at more than 5.3knots - clearly the systems are not yet refined enough to operate properly and there are so many questions that the providers of diesel hybrid have not addressed.... Also Betamarine are not advertising that they are not allowed to be fitted to EU made boats because their emissions do not comply with the current regulations, let alone future planned ones (as far as I am aware but they have not answered my questions when I asked them!)

[@xZeroxNoid]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 i didnt know that tidbit about BetaMarines, its good to know because we are looking at their systems as an option given they use such reliable engines.

[@faraway5828]

300 hours for a cutless bearing? Johnson Duramax (who make the real cutless bearings) expect 10 years of life in commercial use for bearings - thats nearer 30 000 hours. 300 hours for an inshore fishing boat? That would only last a month, and thats simply not the case

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Faraway - I was basing my info on the non-industrial ones that are fitted on production boats and we know of a cutlass bearing and seal on a Beneteau that was ruined by a single Atlantic crossing with the props spinning and I was informed that the seals and bearing are recommended to be changed every 3 years or 300hours. There definitely are some seals that work with water seals and not rubber that last longer too but those figures were for the "normal" production boat bearings and seals on shafts or stern drives. We would be keen to know the brands that can last 30,000 that can be used - but if this is an issue, people should be aware of it and change their gear to suit hydro regen with shafts....

[@faraway5828]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Beneteau were (are?) notorious for having used a brass hose barb on the injection point for the water lubrication input to many of their shaft drive boats - they suffered rapid dezincification and either blockage or structural failure. lack of water lubrication could easily destroy a seal, or it may have been defective or badly installed. 300 hours just isn't normal - I did 18,000 miles on my Vetus (the resin tube version as it was an alloy Trintella), and there was still no measurable wear.. Watt and Sea requiring a return to factory service really does make it an 'emergency supply only', not a daily usage item. They are really fragile (props in particular). Intriguingly Beta have a choice of props, depending on whether you want optimised drive, or optimised region - only Oceanvolt can control the pitch on the fly afaik

[@billydaniel900]

👍

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

:)))

[@dcvargas8917]

Check out the GoDu Adventure aluminum dinghy. It looks like a great option.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks, we will, DC!

[@waltervanderboor]

There’s a lot to it. Don’t underestimate it. Personally I’d choice either full electric or fully diesel as hybrid adds a lot of complexity. I’ve seen designs with port diesel and starboard electric. To solve the various problems. It’s possible to do electric but it’s costly to potentially save some. Cheapest is still a simple diesel and accept that end is sometimes not giving full hull speed. Problems will. Come in 2030 when you want to sail in the Med. As they want to ban diesels

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Walter. I answered this before but it does not seem to have loaded. Thanks for your info and it seems that you are absolutely correct and the 2030 regulation issue will be a very interesting challenge for the yachting community!

[@carlospereira9838]

You cannot go fully electric without a DC generator the math does not work. You you a diesel that can output at least 80% of what the electric motors output. I gave done the math. The best hybrids are serial hybrid but it requires a large battery bank.

[@39lp]

Will the ban apply to diesel engines or also to diesel generators to power batteries?

[@waltervanderboor]

@@39lp Its actually still unclear. recently there was a ban on ships with diesel or outboard in Amsterdam and in Cannes. and regulation is still focusing on large ships like cruise ships. But a German yacht magazine have announced that older diesel yachts cannot go to marinas in the Med. Right now there's a lot of legislation in the making. The want the med to be a protected sea park, instead of open sea. It is impossible to anticipate on this. but chances are tat a back-up generator will be allowed, and diesel propulsion (hybrid) will not be.

[@geofferyrobertson6608]

Stabi Craft is another Ally Dingy which are made in N.Z

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for that! We will check them out.

[@geofferyrobertson6608]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 , that's your homework for the week folks

[@gwebster6600]

Stabi craft are way to heavy.

[@geofferyrobertson6608]

@@gwebster6600 , was just giving them some makes to check out , I myself don't know too much about them cheers

[@TrevorGrass]

Healthy competition is a good thing but the AST rep. spouting misinformation re the OC Tenders was very unprofessional. Some of your own comments were also inaccurate and I'm sure the team at OCT would be horrified to read them. I suggest you contact them and post the corrections in your next video.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Trevor, I was surprised at the assertions made and I did write to Oc for their reply to the issues and got the answer back today. They agree that it is cat D rated but (as I suggested in the subtitle , the CE standards are outdated. The inability to beach we heard of from an oc owner but the “ocs can be beached and care must be taken like any composite boat”. The weight I misread off their specs which I showed on the video (mistaken total weight from carbon weight). Was there any other error I have missed?

[@laurapitre5797]

Stick with diesels with big alternators and lots of solar. Spending $100K on hybrid systems to save a couple thousand dollars a year on diesel is ridiculous. The Wynns boat is a perfect example of a "solution" looking for a problem. With all the solar they have a couple big alternators would be more than enough for running anything they need. Hugging trees is expensive!

[@carlospereira9838]

A serial hybrid system DIY build would cost 20K for a 40kw electric motors and 42KW DC generator. Not counting the battery pack which you would need at least 200KW All off the self parts. If you buy 2 standard Kubota 50HP diesel it would cost you 40k as they are 20k each. A serial hybrid design is the best design if designed properly but does have its limitations on the 48v system mainly due to max displacement of the boat.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

You speak truth, "Oh wise one"

[@brianstevenson9967]

Yet another interesting Video but with only one bit of light hearted criticism, a man bun is never a good look on men.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for the note on the man bun - I am growing the hair as recommended by our followers in earlier videos and the suggestion was to let it grow until the P52 is complete and we will raise money for charity - like the opposite of Shave for a Cure! It is actually such a pain, takes so much work and gets into my eyes all the time - but Eli likes it and keeping her happy is nice....

[@crowdfundcrew]

The wynns have a diesel/electric hybrid. Sounded like they had issues getting decent speed with just the engines, but waiting hear more from them too on these hybrid setups. Donate for a Dream

[@77space-vt8wi]

Very good check list regarding the hybrids, The magnificent Wynns HH44OC (no dagger boards hull#3) Catamaran apparently serves as an HH hybrid test bed for its hydro regen system configuration data collection. Jason Wynn has mention that HH44 hulls #1 and #2 have a different propeller configuration than his hull #3. He's anticipating some HH tweaking of his on-board system software as they would like a few more then the current 5-knots across the ground electric powered speed. HH44HC hull # 3 with fixed pitch propellers are set at compromise angle for propulsion and for regen while under sail.. Based on cost vs. effective value it may or may not turn out that going to veritable pitch prop is the answer.. On the other hand Nikki and Jason Wynn and Teresa and Nick from the Cat Ruby Rose have noted that on average cruisers spend about 95% of their time on anchor or in a marina so there's that under sail fact to consider.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Yes that is right and it raises serious concerns for anyone coming behind as to whether these sales people are telling the whole story including the risks and downsides - it certainly seems not. Eg the engines on the Wynns boat is a Kubota that does not comply with EU emission requirements so would not be allowed on EU made boats! When the regulations are enforced int eh future, those engines may not be allowed in the EU waters (as they do in certain EUU cities banning certain diesel engines.... Buyer beware!

[@carlospereira9838]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 You are correct that is why I got out of this game the whole CE thing is mostly bullshit. You are correct about the Kubota and the emission requirements that is why my boat is a self build with all the open source electric it would never pass CE inspection

[@39lp]

​@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 WOW! I did not know that. Is that the case for all Kubota engines? I was looking at the Fischer Panda range of generators. They use a Kubota diesel engine (D722 in the Panda PMS AGT 10000). They say they are used on a lot of yachts like Hallberg Rassy, Oyster, Hanse etc. DO you know if they are also potentially be banned from EU waters?

[@nooneanybodyknows7912]

​​@@39lpWatch Sailing with Thomas. He does a superb job on why Fischer Panda wouldn't make a good boat anchor. Excellent, one of my favorite sailors. He really sails!

[@akLeanne]

My question is what are they hiding... Me personally I would never go totally electric. I believe you guys dont plan on going that way either.

[@carlospereira9838]

The honest truth is they are all lying. They present numbers that are not even true.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

No we are not - the engines are too power hungry relative to the batteries so pure electric is still a long way from happening. What I really want more than an electric motor (although it would be nice if light and effective...) is for good hydro-regen but at present it seems that only happens with electric motors!

[@ergolfking]

Guys let’s see the product not the dishy Italian!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Point taken!

[@carlospereira9838]

To the barefoot doctors I have alot to say about this video and I will try to keep this as short as possible. I am the guy who is building the 15m aluminum self build catamaran. Fist of all I have been designing and building electrical systems for small boats since 2013 and even had my company but I got tired of that scene. There is so much false information out there and half truths that you don't know what to believe. For my own boat my system is as such 252kw of lithium ion NCA chemistry. My design my build. 4 X 10KW continuous electric motors. They are axial flux that run directly on 48v battery system. My battery pack charge range is 42v which is 80% depleted to 58v fully charged. So when talking amps because some people don't understand kilowatts it is 5040 amps for 48v and 1080 amps for 24v and for people who are still on 12v system its a whopping 20160 amps. So when people say they have 1000 amps in their boat I ask at what voltage they say 12v I just laugh and then they get mad at me. I am not going to go in all the details of my electrical system because this post would never end. Now why did I choose lithium ion vs lifepo4 and that is because of energy density. Let me explain. Lifepo4 lithium is a very safe lithium chemistry however it is heavy because of the iron inside the battery which is why it is safe. Downside is nobody in the industry is telling you is that just after the manufacture date the chemistry starts to break down, Lifespan is about 15 years. Lithium ion breaks down around 20 years and max life is about 25 years. So you get around 10 years more shelf life compared to lifepo4. Also energy is almost doubled for the same weight for example the 21700 cells I use have a density of 235 watt hours per kilogram where your lifepo4 cells are about 120 watt hours per kilogram. They make them up to 160wh/kg but those are expensive cells. So you see lithium ion wins out but it must be designed correctly with lots of safety measures. My 252kw battery pack weighs in at 1 metric ton and each pack is 28kw and 9 packs in total. This is why we use kilowatts and not amps because amps is useless unless we know the voltage. Ok enough of that now let me explain in detail why is serial hybrid electric motor system is far better if designed properly than diesel engines and even parallel hybrid system. Lets first look at oceanvolt their systems work but is crazy crazy expensive and the system is all locked. For an oceanvolt system with 2 X 15kw 12kw continuous sail drives motors 50kw battery pack and a 20kw DC panda generator they quoted me 110 thousand euros plus shipping and installation costs which had to be done by their approved techs. My system costs 55k all taxes and import costs included. Which is 252kw of lithium ion 40kw continuous electric motors and a 42kw DIY DC generator which only burns exactly 6 liters an hour and charges the battery pack in 6 hours at 700 amp per hour at 58v. My system is almost 2X more powerful 24kw vs 40kw continuous charges 2 x faster charge 20kw vs 42kw at less half the price with 5 times the battery capacity. Then again you must know what you are doing to build these system correctly. The oceanvolt system does work however their battery pack is way too small and way too expensive. Only stupid people by oceanvolt or people with lots of money to burn. OK enough of that now let me compare my serial hybrid to beta marines diesel engines. I chose beta marine 50 because that is what is sized for my boat and they are all kubota engines apples to apples. Lets start with beta marine engines which you normally run at 2300 rpm crusing speed which does about 8 to 8.5 knots its burns exactly 5 liters an hour X 2 which is 10 liters an hour. The shaft speed is 1150 rpm based on a 2 to 1 gearbox ratio. The torque is 140Nm x 2 which is 280Nm. The mechanical KW is 32kw. My DIY serial hybrid running the 100hp kubota DC generator runs at 1600rpm give or take 50rpm and burns exactly 6 liters an hour vs 10 liters and hour for a savings of 4 liters an hour. The electric motors are speced at 22Nm x 4 motors x 3.2 belt ratio which gives you 281.6kw again apples to apples comparison however the diesel engines burn 4 liters more an hour also you have were and tear on 2 engines vs one engine, Again the serial hybrid design wins. Now lets compare weight the diesel engines weigh in at 260kg each for a total of 520kg. The electric motors and controllers weigh in 30kg each for a total of 60kg the DC generator weighs in at 300kg plus 200kg for the DC generator head for a total of 560kg Ok the diesels win the weight round but not by much. Now the real advantage is running the electric motors in battery mode only. You can run at full speed 800amps for 5 hours before you need to turn on the generator or 700 amps for 5 hours 45 minutes or even better drop you speed to 4.5 to 5 knots and run your electric engines for 25 hours which is using 160 amp draw. Again the DIY serial hybrid design wins with flying colors at 4.5 to 5 knots, I can run 25 hours straight on battery power then start the DC generator run the generator for 8 hours and now I can run the electric motors for another 25 hours. Please note I am not even factoring the 8 to 10kw of solar which will handle all the boats electrical loads. Now when you sail and kick in the regen its put out an average of 4kw an hour back to your battery system. Again you have to select the proper prop and size for your system and use a prop designed for regen which one well I am not telling trade secret lol My DIY system has a regen knob so you can increase the charge rate according to your sailing speed. On average with a properly designed system and the correct regen prop it is about 10% of the total motor system, 4kw for my system of regen. The DIY serial hybrid designs wins out if designed correctly. This post had gotten way longer than I intended to. I want to say so much more but I am tired of typing perhaps I should write a book.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Carlos, your set up sounds amazing and you clearly know the details that the manufacturers are keeping private and not opening disclosing.... You also confirmed my growing thought that we should avoid a Diesel hybrid as they have not sorted it yet and we are considering the serial hybrid but our concern is about redundancy. With one diesel generator, what is the back up if that fails - we thought about a small petrol / diesel generator but it seems inefficient.. So you will have the electric engines and separate diesel generator (serial hybrid) so you avoid all the risks with the diesel engine prop shaft and cutlass bearing issues as well. What are the risks with the Li Ion batteries for fire, submersion or traumatic penetration? I have seen video of uncontrollable car fires caused by Lithium and not stopped by submersion.... Are you confident that you can avoid that? Very very interesting Carlos!!! Thank so much for sharing all this info!

[@laurapitre5797]

Sounds like one heck of a fire Hazzard!

[@carlospereira9838]

@@laurapitre5797 The electrical system can be very dangerous if not designed correctly. However if designed correctly it is very safe to use due to all the safeties in the system. For example the battery pack when designed correctly is very safe with multiple levels of safety. MY 28kw battery packs have 4 levels of safety also the packs are never pushed more than 0.3C rating which means cooling is not required, In fact each pack can be pushed 168 amps continuous for a total of 1500 amps at 50v and each cell is only discharging 1.5 amps each. The cells I use are rated for 1.6 amps for 1000 cycles the cells themselves can handle a 3C rating (cycle life will be affected) with no problems which means they can handle up to 15 amps each without thermal runaway. Why don't companies do this well its very expensive for them to do so.

[@carlospereira9838]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 First of all the the serial hybrid does have its limitations mainly due to the maximum displacement of the boat. I need to know what yours is. Not the light displacement. The 48v electrical system for diesel replacement has its limitation is 60kw max which means at full 60kw you would use 1200 amp draw which is alot. A 50kw system would draw 1000 amps. Mine draws 800 amps which is 25Nm X 4 X 3.2 which is 320Nm of combined torque. I don't use gear boxes they are expensive heavy and don't work well in regen. As for the shaft drives and cutlass bearing you were given misinformation. With my design I have my first boat still using the same cutlass bearings for over 10 years now. That 300 hours is bullshit. Its how its designed and alignment is the key. When perfectly aligned you have no wear in a cutlass bearing. For your boat if you want to go the serial hybrid route you would need at least a 200kw battery pack and also would depend on your maximum displacement.

[@carlospereira9838]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 As for why I chose lithium ion as I explained before is due to energy density and weight. However I choose ONLY NCA chemistry because it is the safest of the lithium ion family. My battery design is based on Tesla tech. Tesla has 6 safety factors I have 4. Cooling is not needed as I only push my cells to 0,3C where Tesla pushed their design to 3C. My cells don't even get warn never mind getting hot. Tesla also has fireproof foam I do not again because its not needed. Each cell is fused at 3 amps the the fuse blows between 4 to 5 amps. So the fuse blows before even reaching 1C, OK I have said to much now on the battery pack design. As for immersion well we NEVER install lithium batteries below the waterline mine will be installed on the bridge deck. I have a dedicated tech room for that where everything electrical is installed.

[@mahyala_]

Hey guys, Thanks for the video…. The last part where u discuss the first hybrid system, the whole time u r talking to the person, u don’t show the engine, (except at the end, and only 3/4 view of it?). The next guy, the same thing?! Im dying to see the product. I dont care about looking at the guy talking for three minutes solid, i would like to see detailed views of the system in ques? Now i have to do additional legwork to find a view of the system, just to find out if I’m even interested? The tender part tho was great!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Yes, sorry for that, Mahyala. I should have put in cutaways of the engine but it was Bellamarine and their electric engine will be featured in next weeks video (and I will try and remember to add a photo of their hybrid diesel too, just for you!!!

[@mckenziesonthemove807]

I got a watt and sea and even with an Outremer surfing at 17 knots I’ve never seen above 250 watts with largest prop. The tables they print should be removed as it’s completely rubbish as all watt and sea owners know. 👎

[@carlospereira9838]

Watt and sea is garbage is way too expensive and produced very little power output. A well deigned electric system with regen and the proper prop will output on average 10% of the total output on the electric motor. So a 10kw electric motor will output on average 1kw in power.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Mckenzie for the info! We have heard of people sailing across the Atlantic and throwing them away on the other side but nice to hear from a user first hand!!!

[@groovetrain397]

P.s. tell your husband his hair looks rediculous!!!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Wooh- bit harsh! Just a bit of fun while we are waiting for our Portofino. It was suggested to us by a subscriber to not cut it until we are sailing it! We are raising money for charity - like the opposite of Shave for a Cure!

[@firstlast1047]

@groovetrain397 You confirmed what I have discerned over the years. When persons can't intelligently contribute to a conversation, they interject with trivia, inanities and triteness. This is a sailing channel, not a channel for demonstrating tonsorial conformity. 😮

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

@@firstlast1047 Thanks very much!

[@groovetrain397]

@@firstlast1047 ooops sorry for being honest, i forget you all just want people 7 in your pockets and telling you what uou wana hear!!! Suck it up falicia!!!!

[@groovetrain397]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 @firstlast1047 ooops sorry for being honest, i forget you all just want people 7 in your pockets and telling you what uou wana hear!!! Suck it up falicia!!!!

[@groovetrain397]

You're spending all that money on a boat why don't you invest in proper mic's!!!! Audio is crap!!!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Sorry you feel that way but we use Rode mics and the problem is the background noise that you get with crowded places, crying babies etc.

[@gwebster6600]

​@@barefootdoctorssailing8567try using lapel mics.

[@groovetrain397]

@@gwebster6600 yes the old farts need education!!!! Their just playing dumb!!!

[@groovetrain397]

Waste of time!!! Unsubscribed!!!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

These are free videos, your call and sorry to see you go.

[@groovetrain397]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 you lier!!!!! If their free stop inserting so many ada!!!! Demonitise your videos!! Then you can claim its free because subjecting us to ads is a form of torture and mentally costly!!! So not free!!

[@groovetrain397]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 @firstlast1047 ooops sorry for being honest, i forget you all just want people 7 in your pockets and telling you what uou wana hear!!! Suck it up falicia!!!!

[@MK-gr9qz]

Thanks for sharing🫶🏻🏅

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Our pleasure, MK!