How Do We Separate History from Myth in the Gospels?

[@ReligieVrij]

Again, a wonderful interview about a fascinating topic. I was criticised by an apologist for making 'liberal assumptions' about the Bible after no longer believing in its infallibility. It's a real irony because they make the greatest assumptions by dogmatically claiming that it's all history, that it's all really one story of God written down by different people, etc. Now I hear Bart discussing the development of historical and literary criteria, and it just makes so much sense that I can't help but conclude that fundamentalist Christians and apologists are so unreasonable and dishonest, using double standards to fit their own narrative, starting with the conclusion that it's true. I'm not a Christian anymore, but studying the Bible has become much more interesting and revealing now that it's not a duty or a one-sided narrative anymore. The liberal, open minded approach to the Bible is the only honest approach that really respects the Bible for what it is en for what it has to say.

[@davecarew1116]

THIS PODCAST is so wonderful. And absolute don't-miss each Tuesday. THANK YOU, Bart and Megan!

[@montyl.9931]

I bought Bart's textbook. I'm 75% through it. So much information yet well presented. As the reader; I am pulled along from one chapter to the next. Very enjoyable and worth while purchase

[@butternutsquash6984]

I remember when my professor explained the difference between factual and true. It made total sense to look at religious stories as talking about "what is believed to be true" rather than recording facts. Brother Mouton laid an inctedible foundation for his students to build upon.

[@johnriley5499]

It has been said, All true and some of it happened!

[@TorianTammas]

Peter Parker is truly Soiderman according to the scriptures. Darth Vader saved all of us and millions of us watched his death as first hand eye witnesses. I say to you that many of us will.still be here when the emperor Palpatine returns.

[@rafaelallenblock]

It may be a 'mere' book of myths but the death and suffering and destruction that it wrought, and CONTINUES to wreak, is unimaginably huge.

[@johnnastrom9400]

You make no sense.

[@michaeldebellis4202]

I agree religion in general and Christianity in particular have caused a lot of suffering. You can make a good case that Christianity is to blame for the holocaust because it was the scape goating of the Jews as the cause of all problems that Christianity created that was what Hitler exploited. Ironically, you can also make a case that Christianity is to blame for the oppression of the Palestinians since it was evangelical Christians believing nonsense that mostly isn't even in the Bible that were a big impetus for the creation of Israel and US support. However, I also think there are always other causes. The US supports Israel more because of oil and military considerations and uses the evangelicals to prop up their political goals. There are plenty of places where people of different faiths live next to each other with no problem. Actually, a guy from University of Chicago named Robert Pape did fascinating research on this. He created a huge database of acts of terrorism, the political and cultural context for each and then via statistical analysis determined that while religious differences often make political differences even worse, it was virtually always political differences (about who got the oil or water or good jobs) that incited terrorism while religion was more an accelerant that could make a bad situation worse. Having said all that I agree the world will be a better place when we abandon religious myths and try using reason to guide our moral decisions.

[@DougVandegrift]

@@johnnastrom9400 I'm sure he means the bible is used to justify lots of suffering and death over the generations. i.e.: the spanish inquisition, nazis, etc.

[@Bronco541]

No they make perfect sense. From the crusades to modern attacks on jews and gay people etc Christianity like many other religious mercilessly caused countless suffering. What about this doesnt make sense to you?

[@nonyobussiness3440]

@@Bronco541 Christianity and the philosophies that emerged out of it and new ideas based on Christianity and are Christian thought are the following: enlightenment/all people are created equal and deserve equal rights and human rights/antislavery/civil rights/women’s rights/lgbtq rights/modern democracy and free society/anti eugenics/anti racism/ anti war. The list goes on dude. Crusades? Do you understand how brutal and evil Islam is lol? Do you understand how violent the Vikings and shit were?

[@rayzimmerman2553]

Bart is such an amazing scholar, and so personable. I highly recommend going on a trip with him if you have the chance, although the trip to Greek Islands trip this spring is probably booked up. But on these trips, you will have time to speak with him during the course of a given day or two, as you are walking around or sharing dinner. And you will meet some fascinating fellow-travelers.

[@jameschavez1751]

Megan, a have bone to pick with you! I started reading Inanna because I saw it on your bookshelf, and now I am hooked! Great series. Can't wait for the final in the series. Emily Wilson. Great read.

[@GaiusSonofGermanicus]

Don't disagree with this, but it is remarkable how, for instance, the discovery of a stone with Pilate's name on it is immediately seized upon by the fundamentalists as proof positive of everything in the Bible. Trying to engage with them on the basis of evidence, free as they are to excuse themselves from even the most basic principles of logic and reason, is just a game of "heads I win, tails you lose".

[@TorianTammas]

The name Lomdon snd the existence of the city proofs that Harry Potter is the chosen wizard.

[@RandomlyRandom2025]

I appreciate all the videos you upload to this channel! Thank you both 🙏

[@johngodfrey9476]

Really enjoying both the new Lewis and Ehrman video studios shown here. I always get a lot out of the episodes themselves, but the environs are great, here.

[@paulkoza8652]

This was a great discussion, especially Bart's summary of the historical vs. the literal. Thanks for helping me to differentiate between the4 two.

[@neilclaypoole7529]

Love this incredible show I get such a great education on the Bible history. I am a non believer yes a heathen . But I learn so much history about this time of Jesus. And you are not preaching bad disinformation you give great history of the Bible thank you.

[@Arven8]

Thank you, great discussion. Bart is a great teacher, and Megan is a fine interviewer. Even when the topic is something I've heard Bart speak on multiple times, I still end up learning something. It's a fascinating area. I first learned about the distinction between historical and literary/mythological truth from Joseph Campbell, and it was the first time that Christian stories actually spoke to me. It was also helpful to get a review of the three criterion critical scholars use.

[@gsr4535]

The Bible is basically, in my humble opinion, the folk tales of the ancient Jews. There's a bit of wisdom, some historical facts, some bad advice and some pure fantasy/myth building. It's also important to remember that most human beings today and throughout history are not, were not Jewish or Christian, therefore they don't follow the Bible's viewpoints.

[@369infy]

found another npc xdd.. clwons bruh

[@harrydecker8731]

And a lot of wars and genocides in the Old Testament.

[@VSP4591]

You are so right. The problem is that this mix is considered the will of God and should be observed on each line.

[@nonyobussiness3440]

@@harrydecker8731so lol genocide, enslavement, war is something humans have always done and will continue to do sadly

[@dancahill9585]

I view the Old Testament as a book of Jewish Mythology. It gives an origin story of the Jewish people which is similar to other Mythological Origin stories.

[@adler7-l7z]

Happy New Year to you both! Thank you for all your videos on this channel. I thoroughly enjoy them.

[@topher6410]

Great episode! It helped me better understand historical critical methods.

[@Mustang1683]

So according to this, Jesus is the MAN, the MYTH, and the LEGEND! That's awesome. I have been reading Ehrman for years, but this is the first time I've heard him. He's wonderful.

[@howardmestas7522]

Bart described the entire gospels very clearly when he said they are true stories that didnt happen!

[@ajkumar6013]

that is what people incorrectly call it as 'Myth'.....myth is truth that never happened but it always happens.

[@byrondickens]

​@@ajkumar6013 Absolutely. See Johnathan Pageau. He discusses this all the time.

[@russellmiles2861]

And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

[@robinharwood5044]

@@russellmiles2861 Yes, it is.

[@TorianTammas]

​@russellmiles2861 A title can do nothing as it is a title. If you refer to "Issous" as it is a literary figure it does as the author says. The person Yeshuah we know nothing about as he wrote nothing did not even tell.anyone to make up a fictional greek-roman story collection.

[@MichaelYoder-e8g]

Always love these shows. Thanks Bart and Megan, et al...Would love to see Bart cover logical fallacies and early Christianity (e.g. cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias, appeal to authority, appeal to ignorance, no true Scotsman, etc.)

[@rickdeestrada9659]

Dr Ehrman you made me open up to what the Bible is really different when you see the contradictions and past myth that seems to be picked up when documentation didn't start until 70 years after Jesus was crucified.

[@normative]

Most scholars date Mark to ~70 CE, or about 40 years after, Matthew & Luke to the 80s (50-60 years after) and John to the 90s (60-70 years after).

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

@@normative And of course Paul well before even Mark, though he doesn't give us details on Jesus's life.

[@nonyobussiness3440]

@@rickdeestrada9659 why document it lol like who would read it or need it

[@adriannegentleman83]

I know I only see them on KZbin, but I cannot imagine Megan and Josh being boring.

[@karlu8553]

Great video. On the last question about Markan priority, there is a fantastic video on here (YT) of Ian Mills (now Dr. Ian Mills) teaching a class on the synoptic problem and Markan priority to a group of MDiv students at Duke. He does a great job of summarizing and making some of the key documents for Markan priority accessible

[@bobgance6872]

Love this stuff. Thanks, Bart and Megan.

[@frankteunissen6118]

I was given the New Testament to read in secondary school. We had finished reading Plato’s Defence of Socrates, which is Attican Greek of the 6th century BCE and is diabolically difficult. So then our teacher told us it we’d be doing some light reading. And it was: the Gospel according to Matthew in koinè which was the pidgin Greek of the Eastern half of the Roman Empire. In this case, of course, it was koinè from the 3rd century CE, i.e. almost 1,000 years later than the Attican we’d just been wrestling with. It was so easy, we could read it as if it was the daily newspaper. We just couldn’t believe it!

[@EdgarEarly]

Thomas Jefferson's 84-page Bible was the work of a man who spent much of his life grappling with and doubting religion. Prepared near the end of the ex-president's life, the Jefferson Bible, as it is now known, included no signs of Jesus's divinity.

[@michaeldebellis4202]

As far as I know (but correct me if I'm wrong because I don't know that much about Jefferson as a person) Jefferson didn't struggle much religion. He was a "deist" which back then was the socially acceptable way of being an atheist. He didn't believe in a personal God but rather in God as a concept for all the things in nature that people of his time (and for the most part ours, although we know a bit more) couldn't explain such as how the universe started. In any case you are totally correct about the Jefferson bible and that many of the founding fathers like Jefferson and Madison were in no way Christians. Indeed, if they came back to life in modern America they would be vilified by the right as secular humanists which is exactly what they (many, not all of course like not Adams) were.

[@palamane1]

It more properly called the Jefferson New Testament or the life and sayings of Jesus. He cut up three Bibles in order to construct it and removed all the miraculous material. You can buy a copy online from the Papers of Thomas Jefferson, The. (it’s their most popular book). TJ discusses it in his letter to John Adams dated, I believe, around 1817; their correspondence, resumed years after Jefferson’s presidency and after he backstabbed Adams for political reasons, is one of the most delightful sets of correspondence in American literature. Highly recommended. However, just for clarity, Jefferson was probably influenced theologically by Joseph Priestley in the 1790s whom he met in Philadelphia.

[@michaeldebellis4202]

@@palamane1 Thanks for the info. I always found the relationship between Adams and Jefferson very interesting.

[@klauskeller7617]

When I think of Jesus and his life and work, I am more interested in how I should act and less what I should believe. I can live well with myths and legends that describe it

[@russellmiles2861]

As are most Christians

[@byrondickens]

Precisely.

[@innavision1920]

Yes, myths can have metaphysical metaphors that you can learn from regardless of the story is actually history or not

[@russellmiles2861]

@@innavision1920 that is well expressed - doesn't mean there is any historical bases ... Just stories we tell each other

[@docjaramillo]

If only your fellow religionist shared your perspective

[@darapdiengdoh2179]

Dr Ehrman please explain to us about the Nicene creed. How it happened?

[@Butterfly-bo1vb]

Awesome generalized info on processes for critically understanding the material.

[@knotlock]

I am deeply skeptical of this sourcing conclusion. Just as I am skeptical of the definition of ‘a true story that didn’t happen’ (which Prof. Ehrman never got around to explicitly connecting with the term, “legend.”) Both honestly appear to me, very conveniently idiosyncratic with Christian faith assumptions. I got this way when I tried to debunk *Proving History: Bayes’ Theorem and the Quest of the Historical Jesus* …I failed.

[@Fee___]

Yaaaay interesting topic!!! Love you guys lemme do my workout first😂

[@amyclea]

Another informative topic, credible and reliable discussions and Megan, wearing a lovely red coral necklase.

[@arthurmcculloch1470]

An excellent presentation. Really enjoyed it. I wonder, though, if the central question of historiography is 'did it happen?'

[@TorianTammas]

Yeshuah was a guy who never wrote anything. Iesous is a fictional character and more than 5 authors make up contradiction versions. Greek-roman literature about Iesous is as historical as magic tricks and mythology are.

[@HelliarCOH]

Love both, thanks for spreading this knowledge! Love from Croatia!

[@alexcanduci3824]

One of the questions I had about the trial of Jesus is something that Bart touched on: the presence of Barabas at the trial. It dawned on me once I understood that Bar Abbas meant 'son of the father', that perhaps Jesus and Barabas were one and the same person. That what you actually had in the gospels was the trial of Barabas, and that to differentiate the true Son of God from the false one, the gospel writers split one man into two: the insurrectionist and the spiritual Messiah.

[@howaboutataste]

The whole fact that Barabbas is let go alive parallels the scape goat, upon whom the sin of the nation is placed. This goat carries the sin away into the wilderness, never to be seen again. An identical goat is sacrificed on behalf of the sin of the presiding priest. Passover lambs do not carry away sin. Lambs are not sin offerings. Passover has no atonement. The Day of Atonement proceedings are the only time the sin of a collective group is delt with. The entire Barabbas affair is deeply problematic. The only thing I'm sure of is that it is fiction. What the meaning of it is, is a muddle. The problem with your suggestion of an insurrectionist messiah vs a spiritual one is that the militant one atones for the sin of the world, with Pilate officiating in the role of high priest. Although, I guess the spiritual one passes us from death into life? So, maybe the point would be that concerns about sin is worldly and inferior. IDK. It also brings up the whole human sacrifice thing. Dead human bodies being unclean. Maybe why Paul compares Jesus with the snake on a standard? Which seems equalling baffling and loaded with alternate meanings. "Bronze serpent" is entirely too close to other Aramaic words. All the possible symbolism seems like a "pick your own adventure" exercise.

[@TorianTammas]

read the four trials they are insane and many of them totally ignore all rules, customs and fit not even in the time frame. It is as fictional as one can get.

[@jacobvictorfisher]

Thanks for a great discussion! You forgot about Spinoza’s Tractatus Theologico-Politicus though. Happens to the best of us!

[@RosaLuxembae]

Crash Course Mythology was good for looking at the technical meaning of myth in an accessible format here on KZbin

[@David-j8v5p]

In Acts 7:16 verse Stephen says that it was Abraham who bought the land in Shechem from the sons of Hamor for a certain sum of money but in Joshua 24:32 verse it was Jacob not Abraham because the sons of Hamor were on after Abraham's time

[@welcometonebalia]

Thank you.

[@reveivl]

Fascinating as always, thank you.

[@Efapasonofking]

us always informative and interguing . big fan from ethiopia

[@David-j8v5p]

Did Stephen read Joshua 24:32 verse at all? Or did the writer just take and write something that was way off and wrong writing that Stephen took and said something that he never said?

[@najamulghanikhan]

'A true story that didn't happen' sums up the Divinity of Christ and the inerrancy of the Bible

[@gamerknown]

The big thing with apologetics is the same as with the Foucault side of the Chomsky divide - a lack of falsifiability. If one can torture an intepretation where Ahimelech is Abiathar, how can one fail a student for asserting Pelagianism is a Sasanian heresy?

[@AquaponicDave]

Great episode. It's rather obvious that Mark was written before Matthew and it makes no sense whatsoever that an alleged eyewitness (Matthew) would copy word for word an account written by Mark who was not an eyewitness.

[@vincenzobonitatibus5724]

Let’s have an episode on Markan priority!

[@grumpyparsnip]

If three sources X,Y,Z have stories and whenever there is 2-fold agreement, X is involved, then X is probably the source of Y and Z, is not a complicated argument. Seems like perfectly sensible analysis.

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

Another great pair of glasses Megan.

[@YungDeath66]

Separating history from myth in the Gospels? Well, it's like trying to find the original recipe in a centuries-old game of telephone, but with more miracles and fewer verifiable ingredients!

[@MagicJesus]

such as John, Pontius, Petrus, and, Paulus. All you need are Christian "historical reporters" dropping fictional characters into history lessons. Then the historians promote all of their "histories" because the flawed methodology of Ancient History demands it. Bart swallows and teaches about absolutely every one.

[@yallimsorry5983]

@@MagicJesusyou two could learn a lot if you just *listened to the episode*. I mean, disagree with methodology all you want, but these are all examples of special pleading which would invalidate all ancient histories of Augustus, Alexander and Joan of Arc.

@@yallimsorry5983Jesus is not a figure of history. If he ever lived, his story was not recorded (other than possibly the crucifixion). The Jesus Christ myth does not need a flesh and blood Jesus to do its magic.

[@TorianTammas]

​@@yallimsorry5983Alexander the Great was a son of a god according to his mother as she slept with Zeus (in the attire of her husband) and egyptian priests declared Alexander to be god. We have battles,conquered cities at least five generals of Alexander who founded kingdoms after Alexander, around a dozen cities founded by Alexander, coins and some more. About Iesous we have religious greek-roman literature to promote religious membership. It is contradicting and full of greek and jewish mythology.

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

I'm a bit confused about what Bart describes as the Basic definitions of myths and legends where myths are stories about the gods and legends are stories about historical people. Where do stories about non-historical people fall in this scheme? Or at least stories that can't be traced back to an actual historical figure? Like Robin Hood, for example. Or in the Hebrew Bible, basically all the figures before David, back to wherever we agree it's myth.

[@JohnWilliams-bp8xf]

Well seeing as how there’s no historicity in the gospels, I’d say it’s fairly easy.

[@davidkeller6156]

Excellent! Thank you.

[@adrianthom2073]

I love Galileo’s description of the Bible “The Bible tells how to go to heaven, not how the heaven goes”.

[@daniell.dingeldein9717]

anything that relates to the supernatural is one big tell

[@ElkoJohn]

Well done

[@michaeldebellis4202]

One more example of something that is probably true is something that really confused me when I was a kid and still believed in Catholicism (I changed my mind around the age of 12, I thought about this a lot... didn't get out much). That is at the end of at least one of the Gospels Jesus cries out (and I think these are the only words in the Bible in Aramaic, the language he actually spoke), "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?" For a mortal dying an agonizing death on the cross that makes total sense. But as a believer I never understood it. Jesus knew (according to what I was taught in Catholic sunday school) that he was going to die on the cross to pay for our sins. So why was he calling out to God? In the same way, for early Christians, this kind of messes up the narrative that Jesus was willfully sacrificing himself to pay for the sins of humanity so no reason to include it, unless his few actual followers who were there heard him say it (also reinforced by the fact that it is in Aramaic). If Jesus said that it reinforces the hypothesis that Jesus expected the end of the world soon, perhaps just as he was being put to death he expected God to intervene and start ending the world, hence feeling forsaken when it didn't happen. I know that last part is speculative.

[@michael90810]

My biggest issue when I do keto is having terrible sleep which then impacts my ability to workout or function during the day. Ive tried some suggestions from Thomas using tryptophan and fish oil which helps a little. If someone can fully crack the code on getting good sleep on keto that would be fantastic

[@JohnStopman]

When jesus took a dump: history/fact When jesus resurrected the dead: myth/fiction

[@smeatonlighthouse4384]

I suppose you think that is funny!! When you stand before Jesus Christ as your judge, He will remind you of your comment.

[@JohnStopman]

@@smeatonlighthouse4384 I'm as funny as I'm factual ^^ Long live reason & logic ^^

[@andrewlizon7516]

@@smeatonlighthouse4384why would a sense of humor be absent from your deity?

[@normative]

@@smeatonlighthouse4384 It always seems bizarre to me when people impute to their own deity a character anyone would regard as pathetically petty and thin-skinned in a human being. "I heard you made a poop joke about me; eternal torture!"

[@JohnStopman]

@@andrewlizon7516 If God is the all-creator then God is also the creator of humor, including mine :-D

[@TheRflynn]

21:57 Is it correct that Christians generally took the bible as historical fact up to relatively recently? There were a few phases of deciding what was and was not canonical, the bible is a selection of the available sources.

[@TorianTammas]

Marc is clearly an allegory and the text says that only initiates will see behind the story elements. Then Luke and Mathew got it all wrong, and the ship wreck John finally sank the mystic initiation religious idea of Marc.

[@markturner696]

Two beautiful people Appreciate you Megan is amazing 🔥

[@suelingsusu1339]

"How Do We Separate History from Myth in the Gospels?"... the same way one does it for "The Odyssey" or the "Book Of Enoch" or the "Book Of Jasher" or the "Dead Sea War Scroll" or The "Book Of Exodus".

[@Jayzbird16]

I think it's beyond misleading, at least in modern usage, to say the bible contains "true" stories that are only true in an allegorical sense (per Oxford: a story that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one). Perhaps that could have worked in the German of Strauss' day. That's called a "fable," as in Aesops Fables, or a "fairy tale," as in Grimm's Fairy Tales in which fictional stories are told in order to convey a philosophical or moral truth. To say something is a "true story," at least in modern English usage, is reserved for historically accurate accounts. That could have been different in the past, and maybe it could be different in the future, but in present, at least in the usage with which I'm familiar, that's our convention.

[@TorianTammas]

"Iesous" is a fable

[@PatrickFlynn-ry6oj]

Can you really blame people for labeling it as fairytales beginning to end? From beginning to end all throughout there’s implausible superstitious stories that most non-Christian historians don’t believe in. I’m not a mythicist and I know there’s real people, places, and events but it’s still more myth than fact. There’s plenty of fictional stories which contain real people and places, doesn’t mean the stories themselves aren’t fictional. So I think it’s fair to say the Bible is a fairytale.

There are real places and names in many works of fiction. Dr. Ehrman in other videos and books makes a strong case for the new testament not being historically reliable. Sadly, he then often falls back into quoting new testament verses as history even though there is no independent evidence to back it up.

[@PatrickFlynn-ry6oj]

I agree.

[@EdgarEarly]

When he talks about independent sources he's referring to the anonymous gospel writers.

[@TheRflynn]

The topic is the New Testament nit the bible. A work of fiction that contains real people and places that are real, is non-fiction with embellishments or errors. Most accident or crime reports are non-fiction with errors. The ‘true story that didn’t happen’ is a nice analysis. I would be a bit firmer and say that the bible is an inconsistent mess and a poor source of moral guidance.

[@EdgarEarly]

@@PatrickFlynn-ry6oj Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn are fictional characters created by Mark Twain. However, Twain drew inspiration from real people for both characters.

[@jonasespinoza6967]

His name is not jugo it should be Hugo where in Spanish the "H" is silent, so it will sound like Ugo.

[@David-j8v5p]

Compare Acts 7 with Joshua 24 about who bought the tract of land in Shechem. One is Abraham while the other is Jacob.

[@markrossow6303]

annus horribilis A.D. 2025 for U.S.

[@carlmally6292]

Anus horribilis

[@cardcarryingfool01]

Up until the time these ads came into this real time broadcast in was a devoteel No more. Great stuff but it should be clear that if you want more, go to a webpage for your reservation, However, I wan to hear about this or that subject but more more.

[@Johannes_Exiguus]

58:26 cat! huff 😂😂😂

[@hive_indicator318]

I think a prime example of a true story that didn't happen is The Good Samaritan

[@termsofusepolice]

I thought of that parable often during the height of COVID... How it was drilled into me by the church in which I was raised that the idea of sacrificing ourselves, our money and our time for those who are injured or weaker than us was what it meant to walk in the footsteps of Christ... Then to see these same folks turn around and declare it an unacceptable tyranny to have to put on a mask to enter a grocery store - even knowing the masking requirement was not to protect the wearer but to slightly lesson the possibility of transmission to those in high risk groups in the event the wearer carried the virus but was asymptomatic. The hypocrisy is off the charts when it comes to Christianity and the teachings of Jesus.

[@russellmiles2861]

@@hive_indicator318 I would have thought the death and resurrection would be up there ... But the zoombies (righteous dead) roaming Juresulem would have to be at the top of list of stories that didn't happen

[@hive_indicator318]

@russellmiles2861 I meant it in the way he described, as something that has truth at its core (you should be kind to people). I don't know anyone who thinks it actually happened. Then you decided to reply with a shitty comment about how people believe things you don't are fools. I guess not everyone agrees with the sentiment of the parable. And I'm atheist, so this isn't about my beliefs being under attack. This is about your actions. You decided to be an asshole.

[@nonyobussiness3440]

⁠@@russellmiles2861Good Samaritan was made up by Jesus it was a parable. Like when you read it it’s clear. Resurrection happened or was truly believed to have happen. You have to remember back then miracles and supernatural events were everyday shit people belief they really saw. They believed magic was real

[@reedcockrell8126]

Actually in Parson Weems' original story, George Washington didn't chop down the cherry tree... he girdled it.

[@BigDaddyMan83]

Paul Enns or Peter Enns? I've read "The Bible Tells Me So" by Peter Enns. Paul Enns runs the Paulogia channel on KZbin.

[@MingusDew_Bebop]

Zero history, 100% astrology.

[@elainejohnson6955]

Bart says we have sayings in "Q". We don't have "Q".

[@jacktbugx1658]

Separate biblical history from true history Biblical history is mythology

[@althea_is_smokin_hot]

Madam&Sir, history and myth can not be separated from religions.

[@Lyphatma]

"Philology is the art of reading _slowly_." - Nietzsche

[@genskitchenmagic2957]

I still don’t understand how a true story didn’t happen.

[@markanderson4176]

Well if you write a story. It's a true story because you wrote it. And it is indeed a story. 🤷🏻

[@markanderson4176]

Just like" Fargo"

[@howaboutataste]

Bart described it as meaning the moral of the story is true, even though the story was made-up to be a vehicle for the moral.

[@jscire__872]

A story can contain an idea, concept, philosophy, or truth that is truthful to the person telling the story, it’s different to a story with literal, factual events that happened.

[@TorianTammas]

Peter Parker is Spiderman is true as a fiction. It is not real as it is a fictional story.

[@liteenergy4843]

What's the cat's name?

[@charlotteobable]

Pod-cat.

[@DigitalHammurabi]

Barley :)

[@TorianTammas]

How can we separate Peter Parker from Spiderman to shoe the historical figure? How can we separate Anakin Skywalker from Darth Vader to get to the historical truth? Why do we assume that greek-roman literature filled with troupes and story elements from greek and jewish mythology is not just that?

[@Andreth73]

"We" may have problems. Specialists in the field, who studied a lot of greco-roman fiction and non-fiction have pretty good tools, though. (I presume you are talking about the gospels which are clearly not written as fiction for entertainment),

[@MingusDew_Bebop]

All religion is outdated astrology. All religous texts are full of typos. Zero Christians read the Bible. You can never convince a religous person, especially a Christian, that their priest is an atheist pedophile who preaches thinly veiled astrology every Sun-day. You can't even convince an atheist that Samson and the Elohim are both stories about the classical solar system. You can't even convince a scientist that the menorah is Heliocentric and that the jews added two lights after Neptune and Uranus were discovered. The Bible is literally a rehash of the same handful of outdated celestial stories over and over.

[@trolleyfan]

Simple! Is it in the Gospels? Okay, then it's myth.

[@Cynicallyskeptic]

Well… Caesar was apparently a real person and an actual title

[@trolleyfan]

@@Cynicallyskeptic And Abraham Lincoln was apparently a real person...yet that doesn't mean "Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter" isn't fiction.

[@russellmiles2861]

​@@trolleyfanI'd contend there is evidence that sustains scholar rigor that Abraham Lincoln was an historical person; such a letters he wrote, and letters from multiple folk in different circumstances who wrote back. Whereas for Jesus: the Epistles have no reference to Jesus' mission in Galilee, the diciples or family: the Gospel of Mark is a retelling of the story of Moses with words attributed to Jesus lines from Hebrew texts, alone with not a solitary chronicle of the classic era making any reference to Jesus. And Professor E. key evidence that the writer of the Epistle knew Jesus' brother because the "brother of the Lord" line. Interesting, Roman Catholic scholars interpret this same line as a reference to a cousin or fellow believer - they don't want Jesus to have siblings due to their perpetual virgin ideology. It does seem that Christians scholars create evidence to suit their World view; and while their may have been person known as Jesus of Nazareth: it is also plausible this was a story about an angelic figure - as the author of the Epistles actually says. The proposition that based on evidence that there is not other possible conclusion that Jesus was a historical person is not one any professional historian holds. Time to move on.

[@parsonj39]

Oh, you mythicist, you!

@@Cynicallyskeptic lots of fiction mentions real names and places. The bible is fiction from the talking snake in Genesis to the promise in Revelation that Jesus will return to earth on a flying horse. White, of course, the color of good magic & mythical Pegasus.

[@a_lucientes]

Dr Ehrman's book _Did Jesus Exist?_ convinced me the 'mythtcists' could very well be correct.

[@felipeflores7208]

Saluditos desde virginia bendiciones para toda su

[@toomanymonkeys21]

Kitty bonus!

[@jonasespinoza6967]

Of course going to Mody bible there is no way to think otherwise. Even pastors repite the mantra that is inspire and inherant without further investigation. We just repite what we been taught, I was one of them.

[@Apostate1970]

Moody, repeat, inherent. Also punctuation.

[@TorianTammas]

People believe what they heard a hundred times regardless if it is fiction or not.

[@dallasgraham2813]

I like this episode but i agree with some others that we should use "myth" in the modern general sense of untrue. Not true but didnt happen..that's confusing

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

Even within the Gospels themselves, the parables that Jesus tells fall into this myth category of "true things that didn't happen". The story of the Good Samaritan, for example. There's no reason to think that Jesus or the disciples he was telling it to would have thought he was describing a real event. Or that early readers of the Gospels would have understood it that way. The historicity of the parable is irrelevant to the message.

[@richarddemuth7077]

Believe it or not poople, SEVERAL TIMES she's CENSORED the same comment and NOT for the sexual innuendo of it but the HISTORICAL implication!! 🤨

[@richarddemuth7077]

THIS is the one: In a "casual" NOT technically "causal" sense, Jesus COULD be said to have been born "of a VIRGIN"... IF his mother had NOT done sex BEFORE the man she did it with that resulted in her 🤰of Jesus. Thus, his mother WAS a VIRGIN just BEFORE the moment the man who was to be the FATHER of Jesus penetrated her to impregnate her with the 👶Jesus. It's NOT really that much of a "stretch of the imagination" to understand what the "Gospel" author could have meant in the sense of a "double entendre".... one naturally POSSIBLE, and the other IMpossible and therefore SUPERnaturally MYTHICAL. The DEEPER question of the video's topic should be "HOW do we separate historical FACT from historical LIE?" For example, one of the BLATANT INaccuracies in the so-called "Gospel of Luke" (which I would AGAIN ascribe to being a " 👉" by the author to the story NOT being taken LITERALLY) is the account that John came baptizing "in the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar when Pontius Pilate was procurator of Judea and Herod Antipas was tetrarch of Galilee and Philip his brother was tetrarch of Iturea and Batania and Gaulanitis and LYSANIAS WAS TETRARCH of Abila". We KNOW from the "Judish Antiquities" of Josephus that Lysanias was "tetrarch (an INcorrect term though used in an inscription about him!) of Abila from 40-36 BC; LONG BEFORE the reign of the emperor Tiberius! What MAY have caused the confusion in the "Gospel" author's mind, IF "confusion" it was, is that Josephus relates that during the reign of the emperor Claudius, the SECOND SUCCESSOR to Tiberius, the "kingdom of LYSANIAS was given to [Herod] Agrippa I!! THIS would be furthermore be an INDICATION that the "Lukan Gospel" author USED the ALREADY WIDELY PUBLISHED text of Josephus to base his "account" on. Which is WHY I argue for the ACTUAL composition of the "Gospel" being in the early "THIRD CENTURY" AC. 🥸

[@integrationalpolytheism]

3:50 - do you mean author Peter Enz, or do you mean well known KZbin atheist Paul Enz? They are not the same.

[@integrationalpolytheism]

45:29 - actual Paulogia! Cool, that will be entertaining as well as well researched, I am sure. One day though I'd love to hear Paul Enz and Peter Enz debating something with each other!

[@nature_nihilist]

​@@integrationalpolytheismShe misspoke, this Friday's Q&A is with Pete Enns of the Bible for Normal People. Although Paulogia is a member of the BSA.

[@bartdehrman]

Peter Enns - Sorry, the youtube captions may have spelled it wrong.

[@integrationalpolytheism]

@@bartdehrman thanks for the clarification, I was a bit confused about that!

[@dougwulf6684]

I’ve tried to sign up for BSA twice. Bart, I never get the email. Help!

[@bartdehrman]

Oh no! Sorry to hear that. Send an email to this address and they will get you some help - [e-mail] - Social Media Team

[@portalarizona]

I am interested in history and I am interested in myth. From a religious, emotional, and ethical point of view myth is even more important to me. As Carl Jung and others have pointed out, myth is a way of expressing truth that cannot be expressed in ordinary discourse or quantified through science. The Jesus myth is about the meaning of life and what ought to be - realms that are important but outside the purview of history or science.

[@GameTimeWhy]

How can something be truth if there is zero evidence for it? A good, heartwarming story isn't true because it makes you feel fuzzy inside.

[@portalarizona]

@GameTimeWhy There is zero evidence that life is meaningful or even worth living. There is zero evidence that love and compassion are better than exploitation and cruelty. That what faith is all about. That's what spirituality is all about. Myth is the language of the heart. It is just as valid as science. The heart has reasons the reason knows nothing of. As Kierkegaard said, we will never know whether the language of the heart is valid or a chimera. But it makes a difference what we believe it don't believe. So we must make a leap of faith or else make a leap into nihilism. I have found that nihilism sucks.

[@GameTimeWhy]

@portalarizona the options are not nihilism or having faith, belief without evidence. This is a ridiculous comment from you. We can show that love and compassion are better than exploitation and cruelty. Which groups do better? The ones ruled by fear and anger or the ones that have stability and trust? You not knowing anything about science is a you thing. It's never too late to actually learn instead of burying your head in nice lies.

[@portalarizona]

@GameTimeWhy I have a PhD in science and have published in scientific journals I respect your position. I just don't agree with it.

[@GameTimeWhy]

@portalarizona cool. The christian apologists, especially young earth creationists, largely have science or some kind of degree and papers published too. Just saying that doesn't mean a whole lot.

[@alsecen5674]

14:10 I have to say, you confused me on your example. Previously you said stories of Washington would be legends, then you use him as an example of a truth that didn't happen which you called a myth. I think - personally - the stories of the Nazarene are all myth, like Hercules or Asclepius - maybe there was someone ali e with that name bit the stories about them and their mystical abilities are all myth, used to teach a moral lesson.

[@TorianTammas]

Well we find the Asklepios and Dionysos miracles in the greek-roman literature about Iesous. It is a bit like of some rural guy parents to be Houdini or Copperfield

[@goblintown]

They’re baaaa-aaack!

[@skeptic_scientist]

Jesus was a 35 year old Jewish man, from a small village in Galilee called Nazareth, still celibate (no father wanted his daughter to marry him), that lost his job and went bananas. He approached John the Baptist, who convinced him to pass some time at Qumran. He went there and come up with the idea the world was going to end pretty soon, and he would become the king of the New Israel. He, like David Koresh, gathered a few people around him, who convinced themselves, he was the Messiah. He preached, more or less, what Rabbi Hillel advocated, with a few unpractical exaggerations, like turning the other check, which he didn't do, when questioned by Annas (John 18:23). During the Passover, he went to Jerusalem, and provoked some disturbances in the Temple Mount. He got caught by the authorities and got crucified, as many other provocateurs, before and after him. The rest is myth!

[@russellmiles2861]

Jesus is a common name; which one ... How many itinerant preachers names Jesus got diz by the Powers. You hypothesis does take so far

[@Apostate1970]

He got laid at least after he became a cult leader.

[@parsonj39]

And your own account: which is it? Myth? Legend?

[@epicofatrahasis3775]

A good article is the one below: *“The Rationalization Hypothesis: Is a Vision of Jesus Necessary for the Rise of the Resurrection Belief?”* - by Kris Komarnitsky | Κέλσος - Wordpress

[@howaboutataste]

Where are you getting these details from? 35y/o , unmarried, lost his way of living These aren't even in the gospels.

[@camarosspr]

"history from myth" And from "literature" Acording to beautifully Scholar, Sorry, Forgot her name.

[@integrationalpolytheism]

34:15 - and today is no exception. Argument from consensus, poisoning the well and then a claim that there's a lot of evidence, with no evidence being presented. I love Dr Ehrman's podcast and have learned a lot from his books, but it's funny to see him stick to this dogmatic position like any religionist. Scholarly consensus isn't worth as much as people think, because a majority will just go with whatever specialists tell them. I'm sure many new testament scholars aren't actively questioning whether jesus existed, so most will just go with the consensus without close scrutiny. That's consensus for you. And as for Dr Ehrman saying he must be using historical methods because he has no religious reason to say jesus was historical, sorry but imagine what would happen to Dr Ehrman's career if he suddenly admitted there's no good evidence supporting the historicity of jesus. I would argue that secular scholars have MORE at stake than Christians by going against this particular consensus. But Dr Ehrman will likely never address or admit any of this. Nonetheless, a good podcast, I'm enjoying it as usual.

[@Merrick]

I think it can be explained when he said "it's the opinion of 99% of the people who make our money doing this"

[@TorianTammas]

Many are illiterates when it comes to greek roman literature, theater play and so on of antiquity. Otherwise they would see Dionysos miracle copied in, Asklepios miracle copied in and so on.

[@integrationalpolytheism]

@@TorianTammas well I'm an illiterate in those areas, but Dr Ehrman certainly isn't. He reads ancient Greek literature for entertainment! So his dogmatic adherence to Jesus historicity has nothing to do with ignorance or illiteracy.

[@thoughtfuloutsider]

Bart's explanation goes in some way to explain Jordon Peterson's confused explanation of his attitude to the bible and Christianity. He assumes people understand the distinctions between these 4 principles of epistemology - 2x versions of myth, legend, and history. Peterson seems so close-minded that he probably doesn't get that he needs to be clearer and return to first principles. When questioned about truth, he needs to explain the differences between it and factuality.

[@MatthewWhitworth]

Barabbas = "Son of Dad". It's sort of a catch-all....

[@jrodhemi67]

Did not know Megan had a tattoo until now. Very cool.

[@arthurmartinson4370]

Megan's glasses are suspiciously understated.

[@termsofusepolice]

I guess she's exhausted all the frames available in the Elton John Optical Collection. 😀

[@jedesa3]

Metaphor. They point to a bigger truth.

[@bignoob1790]

Why do you go with the apocalyptic preacher instead of the faith healing mystic?

[@GameTimeWhy]

Because Jesus talked exclusively about end times. Probably because of that.

pick your myth

[@carlmally6292]

Because of Schweitzer

[@stantorren4400]

Because the fundamental message of Jesus is apocalyptical. The faith healing shit is more so the ancient equivalent of a PR stunt. The older the gospel, the more openly apocalyptical Jesus is. Look at Jesus’s first words in Mark. It’s the main picture of Jesus’s message

[@bignoob1790]

I always thought of Jesus as someone who might have been some initiate, who was revealing the secrets to the common man Which is why the authorities had him killed.