Paul and Jesus at Odds

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@billyoumans1784 4 ай бұрын

In his introduction to Androcles and the Lion, Shaw says Paul made Christianity into as salvation religion (of which he says there were many) - whereas Jesus was talking about love- Bhakti- love of God, forgiving the debts of others, loving your enemy, seeing God in everyone, especially the least among us, and giving up our attachment to the rewards of the world in order to gain the kingdom of heaven.

@tomgoff7887 3 ай бұрын

That doesn't really gel with those passages that weren't edited out of the bible such as “I came not to bring peace, but a sword” and sell your cloak and buy a sword. These suggest that Jesus believed himself destined to lead the forces of the kingdom of god against the Romans. That is consistent with the Romans crucifying him (for sedition presumably). There would have been no reason to execute him if his message had all been about love and forgiveness.

@jayguilloty6560 4 ай бұрын

You both are awesome thanks for putting this together. These are the right lever points to understand our culture and how some of us humans try and cope with our fear of life and death.

@911amossadvanbomberplotaip9 4 ай бұрын

Jesus actually taught Islam but after him ppl changed his message. Mathew 9.13 - God prefers mercy not sacrifice. Heb 9 (unknown author) a sacrifice is needed. Deut 12.31 - man sacrifice is pagan. Mark 8.12 - this generation gets no sign. Mathew 12 the later gospeI adds sign of jona... - more change. Mark 12.29 God is one. Numbers 23.19 - God is not a man. James 1.18 - God does not change. Any verse saying Jesus is God applies to others. Jon 10.30 father & I are 1. Jon 17.21 me and my disciples are one like God. So is God 1 or 15? Can't be 3 in 1 is consistent. Here is a verse overwritten. Luke 3.22 nrsvue footnotes said earlier manuscripts say h spirit says TODAY I BEGET THEE - as an aduIt so Jesus is human only.

@911amossadvanbomberplotaip9 4 ай бұрын

Ehrman said to licona gospeI accounts are not reliable. Mark 15.40, mathew 27.55, luke 23.46 all say Jesus's crew were at a distance so likely didn't see. They all say Simon carried the cros. Jon says disciples were at foot of the cros but denies simon who many think was switched with Jesus carried it. This proves Quran 4.157 right, they didn't see a cruciFICTION but guess. As for resurrection. Mark 16.9 to 20 are added Mathew 28 & luke 24 disagree if final meeting is in galili or not. Jon 20 says go to other tribes but this contradicts disciples fighting pauI over going to other tribes & Iaw. Mathew 15.24 says I am only sent to my tribe. So Monotheism, no sacrifice needed, no cruciFICTION or resurrection but Iaw & tribal ministry just like Islam says is Jesus's original message in the 4 gospels. - James the leader after Jesus didn't say a word of paul's new Iawless cruciFICTION faith but faith then works like Islam says, he is a buffer between the real teachings and PauIy-theism. Mathew 21.38 to 43 says the cruciFICTION attempt will make his tribe lose the blessings to the fruitful aka Ismail in genesis 17, Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him is from that tribe.

@suprcrzy 4 ай бұрын

@@911amossadvanbomberplotaip9I reported your account for terrorism FYI. 👍

@davecarew1116 4 ай бұрын

Superb, illuminating discussion. THANK YOU SO MUCH, Megan and Bart!

@TruthIsABitterPillToSwallow 4 ай бұрын

The religious historian and philosopher Han-Joachim Schoeps says: “Here is a paradox of world-historical proportions: Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was PRESERVED in Islam.” (Caps mine) Would you like to reason on the subject?

@chris19862010 6 күн бұрын

The talk starts at 7:00

@mkprr Күн бұрын

scotch, biscuits, and labradoodles are all cool things but not what I clicked for 😂

@stussysinglet 4 ай бұрын

I tend to asume anything the gospel writers say Jesus said is only loosely based on what he actually said combined with lots of additions

@evelynmoyer9069 4 ай бұрын

it's not like he had a videographer

@SupremeScientist 4 ай бұрын

I'm not even convinced it's loosely based.

@jessepelaez874 4 ай бұрын

@@SupremeScientisthow do you explain some Greek verses being obvious saying in Aramaic.

@jessepelaez874 4 ай бұрын

@Deewood9996 if it was coincidence then why doesn’t it make sense in Greek? I’m talking about the saying which Jesus speaks about the son of man being Lord of the sabbath. Read up on this, you might learn something, Bart has spoken on this too.

@SupremeScientist 4 ай бұрын

@@jessepelaez874 Just because they may have gotten certain things from Aramaic doesn't necessary mean they got them from Jesus.

@jimmcculloch5825 4 ай бұрын

I will never turn you off. Keep talking.

@SylviaBeck-l3y 4 ай бұрын

honestly, if anything, I'd like more food talk. maybe just lengthen the episode so that we still get the jesus stuff

@911amossadvanbomberplotaip9 4 ай бұрын

@davidkeller6156 4 ай бұрын

@@911amossadvanbomberplotaip9You’re spamming the same message is really annoying.

@wilderness4071 4 ай бұрын

@@911amossadvanbomberplotaip9 The message of Jesus Christ is God is love. Jesus said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Laws and the Prophets. It is not Submission to the will of Allah, as dictated by Muhammed, who hates Jews and infidels. Most Muslim countries are ravaged by violence, genital mutilation, slavery, honor killings and child brides. This is not the will of God, but the will of that demon you call Allah.

@EliezerCampos77s 4 ай бұрын

Lately I’ve been watching everything Dr. Ehrman in YT. One topic I haven’t found anything yet from Dr Ehrman, and therefore I’d like to kindly suggest this topic for an upcoming episode: what are the possible methods for dating the Gospels, which one Dr Ehrman prefers, and why. I think it’s an interesting topic because many arguments from Dr Ehrman start with the approximate date of when the gospels were written, but for laymen like me, that is not so obvious. If that subject has already been tackled by Dr Ehrman, either on YT or anywhere else, please point me in the right direction. Much appreciated!

@jeffryphillipsburns 4 ай бұрын

It has already been covered, but I can’t remember precisely where. It’s possible, considering that Ehrman is now monetizing his lectures, that it has been removed from KZbin, which would explain why you can’t find it.

@I-am-Hrut 3 ай бұрын

He talks about it all the time... paleographic and radiocarbon analysis on manuscripts can helps us date these later copies. Our oldest manuscript is a tiny fragment of a single page of the Gospel of John from the mid-2nd century. But we get our first full manuscripts of all four gospels by at least 200 CE. To date the gospels back to the 1st century, I recommend searching google for a post on his blog called "When Were the Gospels Written? Digging Deeper for Context".

@bradmcvey4673 4 ай бұрын

Eurman I've read all your books most of your lectures your a rare breed most brilliant people can't explain things in layman's terms You can.and reach millions more people in being able to articulate your points superior Bart .looking forward to another book 📖 .thanks Bart .

@jerrycratsenberg989 4 ай бұрын

I find every episode interesting and engaging. I am not a believer, but have read the Bible through a couple of times trying to make sense of it and I have fortunately failed miserably. Neither my wife of 58 years or I were raised in church going Christian families and your broadcasts prove over and over that we have been very fortunate.

@Bronco541 4 ай бұрын

As a person raised as a beleiver I can confirm, you are very fortunate.

@ThetennisDr 4 ай бұрын

Jesus is God. Bible is not 🚫

@Tchalla_supreme_ 4 ай бұрын

The Quran clears up at all the fabrications and misquotes added to the original Bible, read the chapter called Maryam(Mary) it explains in details. Read further if you want to decode the Bible

@timandmonica 4 ай бұрын

@@Tchalla_supreme_ But doesn't someone need to then decode the Quran?

@Tchalla_supreme_ 4 ай бұрын

@@timandmonica the prophet Mohamed(pbuh) is the seal of the prophets starting with Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus -Et. If u read the Quran it talks about all these prophets and the messages they brought . The Quran confirms the original messages that those prophets brought and denies the additions/corruptions added by men throughout time. The Quran as the final revelation from the God of Abraham is for all mankind not for a specific ppl like the Bible or Torah which were both sent only to the children of Israel. As the last revelation it has no errors or contradictions and therefore does not need to be decoded as it is the perfect word of God. I leave you with the greetings of all the prophets. "Shalom alekhum” peace be unto you .

@louisnemzer6801 4 ай бұрын

Thomas Jefferson: "...I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence: and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate therefore the gold from the dross; restore to him the former, & leave the latter to the stupidity of some, and roguery of others of his disciples. of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus. these palpable interpolations and falsifications of his doctrines led me to try to sift them apart."

@stavroskarageorgis4804 4 ай бұрын

His is the only rational approach to "Scripture" of any kind.

@chrismartino3519 4 ай бұрын

@@stavroskarageorgis4804 Fuck Scripture

@MarmaladeINFP 4 ай бұрын

Of course, Jefferson was likely talking about the passages from the Pauline Epistles that we now know didn't actually come from Paul.

@ThetennisDr 4 ай бұрын

Thomas Jefferson was important or just another paid freemason actor

@landrumkelly 4 ай бұрын

@@MarmaladeINFP, do we know that?

@fourjohn4085 4 ай бұрын

I think there should be an in dept discussion, dedicated to the relationships, between Jesus, James, (brother of Jesus), Peter, (Bishop of Jerusalem), and Paul... What they agreed on, what they disagreed about, the final outcomes, and relationships going forward.

@luigitrotti6023 4 ай бұрын

I m an australian italian living in italy ...and i would always take picalillies from.england and branston pickles..and various chutneys ....and whereever i can i ll have a meat pie before leaving britain or australia

@davidhinkley 4 ай бұрын

I grew up with steak and kidney pies every week but as Americanism takes over in Canada they have become impossible to find. I need to travel. My Nan made the various chutneys from her garden. I miss her and them.

@pansepot1490 4 ай бұрын

@@davidhinkley you need to learn to cook so you can have kidney pie every time you want. 😊

@kitwanaabraham560 Ай бұрын

Paulinity is a very intriguing religion. One should always endeavor to call a thing by its name.

@GeldardtheGrey 4 ай бұрын

Bart's soapbox this week is my 24/7 365 soapbox!

@ThisBloke760 3 ай бұрын

It seems to me that Jesus, born under law, taught how impossible it is to enter the kingdom by law keeping. The sermon on the mount pointed out that very fact. Paul, under grace, taught the way to enter the kingdom was thru the atonement of Jesus on the cross.

@carlsoc1 4 ай бұрын

I really enjoyed the discussion about foods 😘. I was raised an atheist (and still am) and have read the Bible several times and find it confusing and enjoy this channel's information.

@johndenugent4185 2 ай бұрын

Atheist ... The problem with that is many people who are not crazy have inexplicable experiences. :-)😊

@gusduenasArt 4 ай бұрын

Actually I think Paul is the founder of the sect of Christianity that end up being known as Christianity after exterminating all of their competition.

@stavroskarageorgis4804 4 ай бұрын

Sensible!

@mickeydecurious 4 ай бұрын

I believe you're correct about that, because Christianity has its roots in the RCC and John the Baptizer.

@gusduenasArt 4 ай бұрын

@@mickeydecurious also the roots of Pauline thinking could be traced to merkava mysticism and some dualism...because the fight between the flesh and the spirit is totally dualist. But also Pauline doctrine is rooted in apocalyptic Judaism of that time, as well as Jesus, but with a different application. But being fair with Paul, we don't know how much is actual Pauline thinking versus preconceived ideas that comes from the translators or escribes of those letters, at least the ones he actually did.

@mickeydecurious 4 ай бұрын

@@gusduenasArt It's hard for me to be fair with Paul and allegend letters; considering those letters have borne justification for centuries of subjecting Women, Children, and "others" too bigotry, misogyny, hatred, violence, and control first by the RCC, then the Puritan Fundamentalist, now there's the EvilAngelcals who wants Their chance at Christian History. Uhh..🤔 Don't do as the Temple priest does 👀 Jesus was right about that 😊

@MarmaladeINFP 4 ай бұрын

How can Paul be at odds since we know nothing else about the first Christians other than from his firstand accounts? All the Gospels were written much later.

@PatrickPease 4 ай бұрын

6:45 the content begins

@boylebuyurdugilgamis 4 ай бұрын

lol

@AbdulHannanAbdulMatheen 4 ай бұрын

Thx

@jessicaramer6630 4 ай бұрын

Thank you for this info. I appreciate it.

@StingrayTomsFlorida 4 ай бұрын

Waiting for the day they chat about 'unimportant ' things for an elite hour just to annoy you. Lol

@PatrickPease 4 ай бұрын

@@StingrayTomsFlorida who says it's annoying? And wouldn't you say it's kind of antisocial hope others would do something specifically to annoy another person?

@Sheltowee1775 4 ай бұрын

YES. PLEASE do the weaponization discussion. As a pastor I might end up recommending to our congregation.

@annettecloutier2094 4 ай бұрын

You can’t tell the differences between Jesus and Paul because we don’t have the teachings of Jesus. The 4Gospels were written 10-20 years after Paul, largely to add & correct what Paul had to profess about Jesus.

@annettecloutier2094 4 ай бұрын

You can’t “obey” God when being preached to. I think the real Jesus knew that and didn’t preach. That’s why we don’t have his ipsissima verba.

@offgrid405 4 ай бұрын

@annettecloutier2094 So I guess we should ignore Paul's doubtful teachings completely. Paul wasted a lot of of time writing all that stuff. Stick to the Gospels guys. They are completely reliable.

@dannyhuskerjay 4 ай бұрын

Ehhhh the gospel of Matthew is very Jewish Christian in nature and has the same exact wording as the didache, Luke , Thomas etc which leads to a mysterious Q. Which is good evidence that the living Jesus did in fact preach of a love message. Forgiveness, kindness, gentleness and him as king of a utopia where the dead were raised to be with us again . But of course Pagan Greco Roman world and political greedy Pharisees couldn’t dare have their power taken away. . You still see it today. Peaceful people who have United are normally killed by the powerful. In fear of a revolution. So the Roman’s and Pharisees knew they were unpopular (Josephus confirms this) this popular preacher from the country was uniting the country folk and even some Judeans tired of the Pharisees were getting behind him as well. The gospels said they feared the people (both rome and Pharisees) I’m thinking rome didn’t fear the people and felt forced to crucify Jesus. They feared the people because jesus was really popular and sooner or later he’d have the numbers if he wanted he could maybe start a true revolution especially with his talk of God soon coming to help him with an army.

@Isaac5123 3 ай бұрын

@@offgrid405 I agree not to listen to Paul but to say the gospels are reliable is a joke. Let me know when you discover all the contradictions in the gospels. It will take you a while. It looks like from yr statement that you have not read the gospels

@offgrid405 3 ай бұрын

@@Isaac5123 Did you not detect the sarcasm?

@mglenn7092 4 ай бұрын

I would say that Paul is the founder of christianity in the same way that Ray Kroc is the founder of McDonald's. As in, Ray Kroc wasn't Dick or Mac McDonald and Paul wasn't Jesus - but Ray, and Paul, were the guys who popularized it, spread it all over the world, got all the franchises going.... Without Ray Kroc, McDonald's would still be a family-run single store in San Bernardino - Without Paul, christianity would be an obscure (and by now possibly extinct) Jewish cult that never made an impact on the world. (possibly slight exaggerations there but not by much.) And Ray, like Paul, made a lot of changes to the plan after he took over....

@nathanaelsmith3553 4 ай бұрын

So the removal of obligation for gentiles to follow the Jewish law is powdered milkshake?

@Isaac5123 3 ай бұрын

And you think Paul did a good job in spreading christianity do you ? Paul changed what Jesus taught and has deceived most

@mglenn7092 3 ай бұрын

@@Isaac5123 Paul did a very good job in setting up Christianity for its rise to become the dominant religion under Constantine and later rulers and nations. What he did to the theology, the culture of early Christianity, his corruption of Jesus’s teachings - as others have put it, he took the religion of Jesus and transformed it into the religion about Jesus… he was effective at making it stick - every major branch of Christianity is Pauline and trinitarian now - I’m not making a judgement on whether that’s good or bad, except to note that it’s another strike against Christianity being a true religion since one self-proclaimed “apostle” was able to take it off the rails and completely change the whole faith like Paul apparently did. That is, unless you’re going to claim Paul had it right while Peter, James and the others in Jerusalem had gotten Jesus all wrong, in which case Paul’s takeover might have been part of god’s plan? If you believe, of course.

@davidlewis3072 3 ай бұрын

"the religion of Jesus is forgiveness. the religion about Jesus is atonement..." Profound

@vusimngomezulu2500 3 ай бұрын

Which church are preaching the gospel of the kingdom around the world to all nations as Jesus Christ said? Matthew 10:16, 24:14, 28:19-20, Mark 13:10..

@davidlewis3072 3 ай бұрын

@@vusimngomezulu2500 any Christian church

@patriciawyatt5073 3 ай бұрын

9th@@vusimngomezulu2500

@justsendmelocation313 3 ай бұрын

The religion of Jesus is ISLAM

@nobodyatall7039 3 ай бұрын

The problem with the doctrine of atonement is that it implies that God is beholden to some kind of cosmic economic force that obligates him to receive a payment before he can forgive a debt. That suggests that God isn't all-powerful and didn't create everything, if there's this system above him that he has to obey like that. Otherwise he could just forgive us whenever he wants.

@Zb-uo2bl 3 ай бұрын

Think of an example involving a Lawyer, and The Bar. Except Father God IS THE BAR, and OUR COUNSELOR! Now factor in the fact that this is ALMIGHTY GOD, and not a human (bribable, or inattentive, or forgetful, or slothful) lawyer. Care to revise your statement 😅

@nobodyatall7039 3 ай бұрын

@@Zb-uo2bl That means God has absolute power to set any standard he wishes. Nothing can force him to require blood sacrifice.

@Zb-uo2bl 3 ай бұрын

God has absolute power....wow, that is Too Overpowering for any discussion at all 😅 So why allow sin to start with.... No, to get back to a serious discussion, the Biblical History has to do with blood sacrifice for sin. The Same culture which Prophetically Foretold Jesus birth, manner of death, result of ressurection. Seems Very strong evidence for What Happened! Paul was from this culture, excelled in it. So suddenly, he started teaching his counter-story.....right!

@Zb-uo2bl 3 ай бұрын

@@nobodyatall7039and Don't loose sight of the Old Testament Sacrifices were temporary, The Son's Sacrifice was ONCE! Never again, for those who accepted it in repentance and believing Faith!

@nobodyatall7039 3 ай бұрын

@@Zb-uo2bl If God "requires" anything at all, such as sacrifice, then he isn't omnipotent.

@psicologamarcelacollado5863 4 ай бұрын

The DIscussion starts at around 7 minutes, just in case anybody wants to know.

@charliedurham4248 4 ай бұрын

I would love to see Tovia Singer and Bart do a podcast together

@donnalowe5370 4 ай бұрын

I hope we will always maintain the right to have intelligent discussions about religion based on research and reason. Megan, I love your new (?) glasses.

@azizwin2319 3 ай бұрын

Paul said God is 3 in one. But Jesus (ph) said God is one...

@thesavior6291 3 ай бұрын

But Jesus didn't produce suicide bombers.

@telvinphiri1620 3 ай бұрын

Suicide is a sin in the suggesred religion

@telvinphiri1620 3 ай бұрын

@@thesavior6291 if Jesus is one with God as u claim and if Jesus was the same in the old testament then he may have taught something worse than suicide bombing... Killing of children. After all Jesus is 'one with God' so the old testament atrocities are just as much his.

@gadzair7144 3 ай бұрын

This is fantastic. The conceptualization of Jesus articulated here is identical to the Islamic understanding of Jesus and God. Jesus preached that we must seek repentance for our sins from God. God is truly Merciful: He did not need the blood of anyone for Him to forgive us, truly forgive us as if we never did that sin in the first place. It's very unfortunate the hold Paul has had on the beautiful religion of true Christianity. And btw, the Kingdom of God is going to come. And it will be lead by Jesus himself when he returns. And all Muslims intend to follow him when he does.

@randysatterfield7966 4 ай бұрын

It would be so cool if Bart put some pink, purple, and blue coloring on his beard and mustache to match with Megan's hair! Imagine how awesome it would look with their matching round glasses too when they both are side-by-side on the screen! I think that would really boost the show! Bart, if you're able to get this message, let's make it happen! 😂

@Bjorn_Algiz 4 ай бұрын

Love this topic and subject! ❤

@911amossadvanbomberplotaip9 4 ай бұрын

@Emily-2502 4 ай бұрын

Thankyou for this episode! 08:58 I would really be interested in the authorship of Paul’s letters. Especially an explanation of the scholarly method to decide authorship. Is it mainly based on literary and theological differences? Is it the evidence which letters were know by the early church? Are there alternative explanations for these differences?

@MudasarAhmed-nz9nl 4 ай бұрын

Yes we want a full episode for letters of Paul and why some are wrongfully assigned to him

@UnimatrixOne 3 ай бұрын

👍

@donny_doyle 4 ай бұрын

Love these smart discussions, the give and take is really well done. You're both pro's and their videos show that. Reading one of Barts books rn- "Lost Christianities " funny thing is - as I read, the voice in my head sounds like Bart! Keep on...

@davidkatz341 4 ай бұрын

I love listening to Dr. Ehrman and i confess i have a crush on Megan...

@moncaman1 4 ай бұрын

Love you Megan....🤗🌎✌️, you guys are so interesting...🤓🧐, I love watching your show. Thank you so much... And God bless you...🌟😇...

@ponderingspirit 4 ай бұрын

Religion of Jesus is forgiveness Religion about jesus is atonement

@mercop1472 4 ай бұрын

@falsesectslikeshiaarejudeo6543 4 ай бұрын

@edward1412 4 ай бұрын

Mark 10:45 “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Matthew 26:28 “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

@thorpeaaron1110 4 ай бұрын

You summed it up perfectly.

@rillip3 4 ай бұрын

For some reason the first adbreak about the podcast only came through my left speaker, and music was coming through on the right

@WarrenFahyAuthor 4 ай бұрын

Weren't the Gospels written after the writings of Paul?

@thorpeaaron1110 4 ай бұрын

Yes

@SharonFoster852 4 ай бұрын

Yes, but, they were based on writings that had been in circulation for some time.

@davedoleshal9775 4 ай бұрын

Yes, Bart has once more hit the nail right on the head.

@russellmiles2861 4 ай бұрын

Really .. you didn't notice he called Paul a disciple.

@Jesusistheway5724 3 ай бұрын

He is a liar and deceiver.

@gnarfgnarf4004 4 ай бұрын

If you forgive someone their debt (13:10), they have to declare it as income to the IRS.

@stavroskarageorgis4804 4 ай бұрын

Ha ha!

@stuartdryer1352 4 ай бұрын

I'd find it really interesting if you could do a follow-up episode on how the letters of Paul are evaluated by scholars for authenticity.

@zdzislawmeglicki2262 4 ай бұрын

Yes, about curry being quintessentially British food. Do you remember Peter Ustinov's film "Stiff Upper Lips." When the company gets upset by brawling, oversexed Italians, Emily's aunt suggests "Let's go somewhere more British… India!"

@VictorVæsconcelos 4 ай бұрын

Right? 😂 It's British as in "British Raj".

@dustymeislahn3221 4 ай бұрын

Ive enjoyed that the end segment themes have been off for a little while. Very fun being told that Bart will be on his Soap box only for the narrator to tell us to make a fool of him.

@NdehMoses-iz3gr 4 ай бұрын

The fact that many people have not understood the teachings of Paul and Jesus, does noy mean their teachings are opposite.

@hza1203 4 ай бұрын

I agree. It’s sad how much Dr Ehrman is either ignoring, or purposefully misrepresenting. Paul says sooooo much about how we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The rich man would’ve absolutely been advised to give his riches to the poor by Paul.

@hazok4351 4 ай бұрын

@@hza1203So why would he not mention that as a requirement for salvation if it was so important for Jesus?

@hazok4351 4 ай бұрын

He never said they were "opposite". If you are able to exercise interpretation of discourse you can't summarize what he said with that statement. They were just different as they addresseddifferent public, inconsistent at times but perfectly reconciliable at others.

@davidhinkley 4 ай бұрын

Also, I always saw the two strains of forgiveness vs atonement but I was instructed to be a good little soldier and trust that they were reconciled. They would have been better to have allowed some of us to just pick the first and better option because, like so many others, that was the first crack that showed me the light that led me out of Christianity and eventually all religion.

@TruthIsABitterPillToSwallow 4 ай бұрын

The light is still there: The religious historian and philosopher Han-Joachim Schoeps says: “Here is a paradox of world-historical proportions: Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was PRESERVED in Islam.” (Caps mine)

@tommyschmierer4627 4 ай бұрын

@onejohn2,26 ...Lol 😂😂😂 ... I'm sorry for laughing but, 😱 omg ... I think God is a lot more tolerant, loving and understanding than many folks would have a person believe ... Humans seem to love to put restrictions on God and to try to put God in a box ... Something to think about I believe... Lets let God be God and just try to live our lives with loving-kindness ... Like Jesus told us ... That's my 2 cents for whatever it's worth ...lol God Bless 🙏💯...

@pazley612 4 ай бұрын

Thank you so much for such a great episode!

@John.Flower.Productions 4 ай бұрын

Based on the available sources, Jesus and Paul had very little in common. Paul was explicit in his lack of knowledge about or concern for Jesus, as he was only teaching/preaching Christ (which is quite different from anything else found in that era of Christianity/Judaism).

@DenisDeCharmoy-fl3ht 4 ай бұрын

I can show you many sources in Aramaic and Sumerian languages of understanding the Truth of Scripture. Do you only read english? I have documented over 7 ancient plus 5 modern languages with most of what you have never read. Shalom Blessings from Africa

@DenisDeCharmoy-fl3ht 4 ай бұрын

Where did the name Jesus come from? Please don't say the bible, then you are ignorant of scriptures. Find Ancient history and discover a whole world of truths by opening your heart and mind, to the unexpected journey of truth. Do you know Greek, as this will open your mind to knowing more of where the name jesus came from. The current calendar we all use (Gregorian calendar) was started when? From that answer you will have 1400 years of the Biblical Calender that dates back 2.7million years, to the birth of the universe including Adam and Eve. If you want to see heaven, lie on you back and look up, that's the HEAVENS. The place you want to go to one day is "the sea of fire and glass" sorry no heaven. You might have also seen statues of jesus and paintings of him. Where did the images originate from? You will fall off your to discover the truth of most beliefs on earth today. Over 80% of the bible has been changed, to create a web of deceit and BS that you would not believe. Please find everything that you believe in outside of your bible. Shalom Blessings from Africa

@fcastellanos57 4 ай бұрын

This is incorrect. Who commissioned Paul to spread the news of Jesus being the Christ, and the atonement for our sins? Jesus did, so we should listen to Paul because he explains what the gospels do not. Paul has explained the consequences of Jesus’s death in his letters which give us a greater insight into the plan of salvation God set into motion.

@gabrielmiller1226 4 ай бұрын

Paul was obsessed with Jesus. However he projected his own new age ideas on Jesus .

@fcastellanos57 4 ай бұрын

@@gabrielmiller1226 This is a wrong understanding of Paul. Read his letters to start with. Paul has explained what no gospel writer did. He has given us insight in the plan of God which the apostles before him never saw.

@bjamal336 4 ай бұрын

I always forget that you are here in NC. I would absolutely LOVE to attend one of your lectures or courses live. Please let me know if that’s a possibility.

@islandofmisfityoutubers6734 4 ай бұрын

The doctrine of atonement IS distasteful 1000% agreed

@Thomas_Zscheile 4 ай бұрын

I think there are misconceptions of what atonement actually is. And to be honest, penal substitionary atonement is one of them. Paul is very clear when writing about Christ dying for us that we will be dying with him. So Jesus is a forerunner and not a substitute. Atonement in Jewish thinking is a ritual which uses the blood to clean or purify the holy place from the contamination of sins and impurity. The rituals thus allow for God to be invited to be with His people. Animal sacrifices could not cover or atone for willful sins. These were polluting the land and the only way to get rid of them were the death of the sinner or the people as a whole going to exile. Such sins are eliminated only by God's forgiveness. (e.g. David was forgiven by God after taking Bathsheba) Jesus' blood has the potential to clean the heavenly temple from our sins, even willful ones. That is stated in Hebrews, but not by Paul. When Paul speaks of what Jesus' blood does, he rather views it as something that purifies us like water (which is not a sacrifice). Or he makes the point that it is used to make a new covenant between God and people. This also is not a sacrifice. I recently read "Lamb of the Free" which deals with this topic quite extensively. I can highly recommend it. Thomas

@ephall63 4 ай бұрын

I find the atonement is a scarlet thread that ties the whole Bible together.

@Maximos384 4 ай бұрын

Well good thing penal substitutional atonement is not in any scriptures. It is a Calvinist invention

@islandofmisfityoutubers6734 4 ай бұрын

@@Maximos384 exactly

@giuseppemannino5204 4 ай бұрын

thank you,dott Bart, really enjoyed it 🎉🎉🎉

@hannahstraining7476 4 ай бұрын

As an English professor, I'm going to split hairs with Bart about who founded the Christian religion. He makes clear that Paul was not the originator of the theology of atonement. The earliest Christians came up with this explanation for why Jesus "had" to die. But "theology" is not the same thing as "religion." At its core, religion is an organized social institution based on a set of shared beliefs. Paul is the one who travelled all over the near east to found the first Christian churches, and he provided the governing rules and guidance for those churches (such as: it is ok for Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians to eat together.) So I do think it is appropriate to say that Paul founded the Christian Church. Is that the same as saying he funded the Christian religion? I would say yes, but it depends on whether you see religions as being a set of beliefs or you see it as an organized social institution.

@John.Flower.Productions 4 ай бұрын

_Paul is the one who travelled all over the near east to found the first Christian churches……So I do think it is appropriate to say that Paul founded the Christian Church._ Your assertion that Paul _founded the first Christian churches_ is incorrect. Paul's own writings makes it hard to believe that he founded any church, much less _the Christian Church._

@BlockyBookworm 4 ай бұрын

Paul was maybe *the* founder of Gentile Christianity as it has persevered to this day, and given that that's the vast majority of Christianity, I second this hair-splitting.

@russellmiles2861 4 ай бұрын

oh spit hair about how many things Professor E get wrong about Biblical text in this podcast ...

@stavroskarageorgis4804 4 ай бұрын

A system of beliefs *and associated practices relative to, well, human noumena set apart from other noumena and phenomena and 'forbidden', adherence to which defines the membership of a community, a Church.

@John.Flower.Productions 4 ай бұрын

@@stavroskarageorgis4804 You have definitely confused church and religion. A group of people, gathered together for the purpose of worship; a church.

@MathewThomasFET 4 ай бұрын

Mk. 10:45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Ransom means "consideration paid or demanded for the release of someone or something from captivity".

@BenM61 4 ай бұрын

Read ‘Paul and Jesus’ by James tabor. It is really that good.

@MTL_at_Islandgrove 4 ай бұрын

The best class I had in my Lutheran Seminary studies ca 1974 was "The Jesus of History Christ of Faith Debate" great fun.

@user-gk9lg5sp4y 4 ай бұрын

I definitely find the doctrine of substitutionary attonement reprehensible

@russellmiles2861 4 ай бұрын

Oh that because unlike myself I haven't sinned ... Whereas other folk have guilt trips.

@user-gk9lg5sp4y 4 ай бұрын

@russellmiles2861 well sin isn't a real thing, so...

@brentkrohn3786 4 ай бұрын

Well now we know Dr. Ehrman is a party animal. 👍👊

@JLang-bn3hs Ай бұрын

Paul was not really an apostle.

@36cmbr 4 ай бұрын

Pretty good for change. Great questions and legit attempts at answers.

@shahidmiah917 3 ай бұрын

In other words the real Jesus was a monotheistic Jew. And Paul literally invented Christianity and turned Jesus into a God. And yes the Muslims have been saying this for 1500 years.

@crafe2305 2 ай бұрын

muslims also say that an illiterate shepard was given revelation by god in a cave telling him hes the chosen one and that he should have multiple wives and put his enemies to the swird.

@konstantinoskazantzis3893 4 ай бұрын

Thank you dr Burt Eherman I kip your saying thanks to Meaghan also have a pleasant day

@behrouzvossoughi5465 4 ай бұрын

burt?....who is burt?.....and who is eherman?........its BART EHRMAN.

@userchrisn53 4 ай бұрын

It breaks my heart that our representatives have forgotten about the separation of church and state and that we elect truly dangerous people like Marjorie Taylor Greene. It is even more disturbing that she has so little insight that she doesn't realize how ridiculous she sounds.

@danlee9293 4 ай бұрын

I wonder what Marjorie Taylor Greene's agenda is. She turns a needed valid discussion into a blantant accusation if not a groundless verdict. Her vicious attack on Fauci is wrong. We have not enough evidence until we have access to more resources and evidence. China needs to open up. Bart is like Marjorie in a sense. It doesn't bother me since he is a historian. He has access to limited evidence and resources from the past, and yet has to conjure up a narrative that is plausible.

@billyoumans1784 4 ай бұрын

I think Jesus also says that one’s sins will be forgiven to the extent that one forgives others who have sinned against one’s self.

@lulubelle0bresil 4 ай бұрын

🤭I was looking at the KZbin start page and I read too quickly "Paul and Jesus ate dogs" and I thought to myself "these disinformation channels have gone too far" before realizing it was you and the title was actually "Paul and Jesus at Odds"

@johnnehrich9601 4 ай бұрын

A good demonstration of how truth can become legend. Although in this case, I think the word "hot" was missing. jk

@joewhip9303 4 ай бұрын

Been going to the UK for 20 years and always bring back loose tea from Fortnam and Mason.

@Valdagast 4 ай бұрын

Compare GOP's stance on immigration and foreigners with Leviticus 19:33-34 _“‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God._

@LOOKING-FOR-GLAZE-GALAXY Ай бұрын

ur comment got 6 likes and mine was one of them, just shows people only follow the bible when it suits them. lets be honest serious christians are very few.

@glennalphonse9711 4 ай бұрын

When some one gives their life for a purpose that doesn't mean the are killed ,you just do all you can to make someone life better than it was it doesn't require death.😮

@andrewsmall3190 Ай бұрын

Jesus taught to seek God's forgiveness through repentance, and following Him. Paul taught "how" Jesus made this possible. Also, Paul taught about repentance but did not emphasize it because he was writing to the churches, 'to the saints', who presumably had already done so. In addition, both Jesus and Paul taught that we must forgive one another and love one another. I don't see any contradiction between the two, rather just a different audience: Jesus to the unconverted and the converted; Paul (at least in his letters) to the converted only.

@offgrid405 4 ай бұрын

Why would God choose someone who had apparently never met Jesus, except in 'revelations', to write 7 authentic books in the New Testament (where Christians get most of their beliefs from). Couldn't he find a scholar, maybe one of the disciples who lived at the time of Jesus and was an ardent follower of his sayings? We are now called to choose sides, because they taught different things. Makes no sense to me.

@TruthIsABitterPillToSwallow 4 ай бұрын

God did send the course correction: The religious historian and philosopher Han-Joachim Schoeps says: “Here is a paradox of world-historical proportions: Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was PRESERVED in Islam.” (Caps mine)

@edward1412 4 ай бұрын

@@TruthIsABitterPillToSwallow lol

@edward1412 4 ай бұрын

Paul was not just some ignorant Joe. Paul was a highly educated person who knew the Jewish laws, so there was a reason Jesus chose Him. Also, Paul eventually met Jesus’ disciples like Peter and James and they refereed to Him as brothers. You don’t need to choose a side because Paul did not contradict Jesus. Even in this video, Bart talked about how in the Gospel of Mark, Jesus claimed that He came down to give His Life as a RANSOM for many, yet he (Bart) doubts Jesus made such a statement. Throughout the Bible, Jesus kept on talking about sins being forgiven through His Blood and this message is throughout the Christian Bible, even in letters that were not written by Paul. Matthew 26:28 “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

@vvvvxxxx9999 3 ай бұрын

We follow Paul, that's why.

@wilhelmhesse1348 10 күн бұрын

They were never at odds, initially they were at extreme odds which is why he had that incident on the road to Damascus. 🙏

@seanstennett3392 4 ай бұрын

Paul is appalling 😂 I just like saying that

@ThetennisDr 4 ай бұрын

Thsnks for letting me speak my mind

@spicyroads 4 ай бұрын

I don’t understand where Paul got his authority to change the religion

@PeterSchmuttermaier 4 ай бұрын

He didn't change it, I think. As Bart said, the people he persecuted already had the atonement belief. But I think I heard that he was not well liked by other church fathers of the time. His authority came from his charisma and successful founding of congregations everywhere, I think - but I am no expert on this.

@misslayer999 4 ай бұрын

Yeah for real. Good point

@edward1412 4 ай бұрын

Nothing was changed.

@thorpeaaron1110 4 ай бұрын

@@edward1412It was Jesus taught forgiveness and Paul taught atonement.

4 ай бұрын

His authority came from the Flavian.

@michelleloftus6990 4 ай бұрын

Megan and Bart, this is really big stuff.. I mean really big- all of your videos are super interesting with fascinating facts and points of history.. THIS one, is so fundamentally important for understanding Christianity- everyone should know these things (Christians most especially!).. but, human nature being what it is- they won't.. :)

@d.m.collins1501 4 ай бұрын

you guys really wasted a lot of time spending a serious chunk of this episode talking about Paul and Jesus. Now I'll NEVER know what foodstuffs Megan Lewis brings home from England!

@davidk7529 4 ай бұрын

❤️

@QuasiKing2423 4 ай бұрын

And you are???

@pushyoch.8252 3 ай бұрын

I have to say that hair colour and the eyeliner looks fantastic

@tryme3969 4 ай бұрын

Jesus and Paul were never at odds with each other..... This channel is creating a false narrative about them, and Bart is going right along with it.

@hazok4351 4 ай бұрын

How exactly do you know if your narrative is not the false one?

@tryme3969 4 ай бұрын

@@hazok4351 I have no narrative.

@hazok4351 4 ай бұрын

@@tryme3969 yeah, sure.

@yallimsorry5983 4 ай бұрын

Did you watch the video?

@tryme3969 4 ай бұрын

@@yallimsorry5983 Yep.

@doc.pleroma-naut2747 2 ай бұрын

What is striking is that Luke/Acts is almost a polemic against Paul in which he never articulates Atonement (albeit there are some interpolations). Luke's theology is repentance for the forgiveness of sin not Paul's substitutionary soteriology.

@onejohn2.26. 4 ай бұрын

Paul is the false Apostle spoken of in Revelation 2:2 Because of Paul's word salad, 99.9 of christians, will not be saved

@JopJio 4 ай бұрын

He is the one Jesus spoke of, when he warned the apostles.

@John.Flower.Productions 4 ай бұрын

He is certainly the one being rebuked in James 2:17-26 and probably 4:13-17 as well.

@onejohn2.26. 4 ай бұрын

@@JopJio agreed

@tommyschmierer4627 4 ай бұрын

Lol 😂😂😂 ... I'm sorry for laughing but, 😱 omg ... I think God is a lot more tolerant, loving and understanding than many folks would have a person believe ... Humans seem to love to put restrictions on God and to try to put God in a box ... Something to think about I believe... Lets let God be God and just try to live our lives with loving-kindness ... Like Jesus told us ... That's my 2 cents for whatever it's worth ...lol God Bless 🙏💯...

@Loenthall88 4 ай бұрын

And I assume you count yourself among the .1 percent? (Just a wild guess on my part.)

@PatrickBarry-lv6uq 4 ай бұрын

No sound, still wonderful to see you both, God bless, 😊

@mausperson5854 4 ай бұрын

I'd love to see what would come of a meeting of minds between Bart and Ammon Hillman. That would be something.

@nelsonnjikelani4844 3 ай бұрын

Why are we ignoring Megan Lewis's voice?❤. She is amazing, so is Bart❤😅😊

@JohnKerr-bq3vo 5 күн бұрын

Even prominent historians must surely have a problem with that jc actually said ( who was there to record it? ) and what is reported he said...

@welcometonebalia 4 ай бұрын

Thank you.

@robbabcock_ 4 ай бұрын

Thanks for another wonderful episode!

@wildmanchrisvevo7007 4 ай бұрын

@24:32 Jesus preached to take up your cross, and follow you. The cross was an instrument of death. Jesus was calling you to die WITH HIM. When we believe in Jesus, we die vicariously WITH HIM, and this changes our lives. Checkmate, Bart.

@smeatonlighthouse4384 Ай бұрын

There is complete harmony between the two. The Lord Jesus taught in the context of before His death, burial and resurrection, to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Then glorified Christ sent down the Holy Spirit to indwell believers and join them to the risen and exalted Christ in Heaven. Ephesians ch. 1. Paul's teachings are based upon the completion of the redemption process and the consequences and effects which that vicarious sacrifice for sin has accomplished. One leads perfectly into and from the other, bringing us the knowledge of sins forgiven, eternal life, peace with God, adoption into the family of God and a home in Heaven assured, plus so much more, if you would only read and understand Paul's teaching along with the apostle Peters in his epistles.

@khaleelorwhatever 4 ай бұрын

Beyond excited for this one

@WSBM 3 ай бұрын

I would say that Jesus' atonement fulfills the Torah requirement of animal sacrifice for the payment of (repented) sin.

@bluesenshi 4 ай бұрын

I'd appreciate it if you had time stamps for each segment.

@revivalquest 2 ай бұрын

What Bart, and I dear say many of his colleagues, lack as a dynamic in their ability to fully grasp the spiritual mechanics (or spiritual economy) of the Kingdom of God is a personal connection (and thus experience) with each of the personas of the Trinity. Without such a key personal experience it is impossible to appreciate both their individual and collective subtle nuances that are indispensable to rightly interpreting the accuracy of the Apostle Paul's theological articulation, exposition, and elaboration of biblical Christianity. Paul was always intended to be the twelfth Apostle, not Barnabas. Barnabas entered in through the impatience and presumption of the disciples, not God. Notice this act of the disciples would bear no fruit. The Apostle Paul, on the other hand, an outsider to the original group of disciples would be chosen by God, in dramatic form. His divine appointment was intended to symbolically represents the grafting in of the gentiles into the Kingdom of God. Hence his designation as the Apostle to the Gentiles. The immense value the gentiles would ultimately add to the Kingdom of God was foreshadowed by the stellar performance anyone can clearly see the Apostle Paul has added to biblical Christianity. Thus, do not be tempted to choose, as Bart unfortunately did here, between the so-called "Paul's Gospel" and Jesus' Gospel. They are both legitimate key components of the continuing unfolding of the much larger and more profound Gospel of the Kingdom of God humanity continues to wrestle with to this day. I know this because, like many others, I have a connection and personal experience with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I first heard Father God speak to me personally as I was entering into adolescence and like many others have had several encounters with each over the last five decades. I pray everyone be blessed by such a relationship with God.

@richardfoster2895 3 ай бұрын

When my mother was 100 years old she asked me "if God decided to forgive people why did Jesus have to suffer and die?". I gave her a standard answer about the sacrificial lamb to atone for sins. But it felt so very hollow when I said it.

@forgivenessseeker2023 3 ай бұрын

Salvation in Islam Adam ate the forbidden fruit God sent him down to earth Adam repent and ask forgiveness God forgave him. Believe in one God and do righteousness you will enter heaven by the mercy of God. This was the case from Adam time to Jesus Christ time. Paul and Christianity say, Adam ate an apple God became so angry that he punished them and kicked them out of heaven, men work hard to earn a living, women suffer in giving birth. But still, God is not satisfied, he wanted to forgive humans so bad that he wanted to kill himself/part of him/his son/a sinless man to redeem the sins. But his punishment is still there. Christians who believe in the killing of God or that God committed suicide still work hard to earn their living, Christian women still suffer giving birth!!!!!! 3For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; 11I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior. 12I have declared and saved, I have proclaimed, And there was no foreign god among you; Therefore you are My witnesses,” 25“I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake; And I will not remember your sins. Isaiah 43 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Ezekiel 20: 19-21 “I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake; And I will not remember your sins. Isaiah 43:25

@forgivenessseeker2023 3 ай бұрын

Your mother is a very clever woman You should be so proud of her

@richardfoster2895 3 ай бұрын

@@forgivenessseeker2023 I am. When interviewed at 100 by a local newspaper, they ask "to what do you attribute your longevity?" She said "don't smoke, don't drink and pray every day." She went home at the age of 104 in 2010.

@forgivenessseeker2023 3 ай бұрын

@richardfoster2895 What an amazing lady Richard I wanted to ask you a question and I don't want you to be offended. Do you believe in one God? Thanks

@forgivenessseeker2023 3 ай бұрын

And what do you believe that Jesus Christ was/is?

@temmaxtemma9570 4 ай бұрын

Praise Zeus in the sky! Megan's hairdo is so amazing.

@ZwelithiniGama 4 ай бұрын

I am thrilled to learn about the whisky from Bart 😅

@jamiefaucett7216 4 ай бұрын

Is it possible to follow them both .....great question

@miriamlevinson185 4 ай бұрын

It seems to me that John, Paul, and the author of Hebrews had a new and mystical take on the Logos doctrine -- that the "word" of God (specifically as Psalm 33:6 describes it as "the breath of His mouth") literally, even hyper-literally, became the man Jesus, resulting in an "incarnate Torah" -- not an "incarnate God." Then they developed this so that the "death" of the Torah had the effect of canceling "the first covenant" (Hebrews 9:15) and its accompanying transgressions; while the resurrection of this "word/Torah" inaugurated the "new covenant." This is where they get expressions like "blood of the covenant" and "[law] nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14), even in conjunction with Christian Jews being "zealous for the Torah," which otherwise would be contradictory. In a word, they believed in the death and resurrection of the Torah. Taking it one more step, they taught this was a one-time event and no repentance is possible for sin against this new covenant (Hebrews 10:26-31). One other aspect of this doctrine is probably what led to the erroneous belief that Jesus is God -- and that is the Christian bible's three-time mention of "creation THROUGH the Word/Torah" - John 1:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, and Hebrews 1:2. This brings us back to Psalm 33:6, "By the word of the Lord, the heavens were made, and with the breath of His mouth, all their host." The Word is nothing other than the speech of God which WAS God but became a man, according to John. Paul and the author of Hebrews agree.