Baseball's Self-Destructive Arms Race

Another day, another controversy in Major League Baseball. This time, it's something that's been slowly bubbling to the surface over the past few years: Pitchers are getting severely injured in greater numbers. Several big names (Eury Perez, Shane Bieber, Gerrit Cole, and Spencer Strider) have either undergone season-ending surgery or may need it in the near future. On top of all the other headaches baseball's dealing with, this one might be the most critical. It is their product that's being damaged, after all.
What's causing all of this? Is it the pitch clock? Is it overemphasizing velocity? Is it everything? This video will try to explain the situation to you.
This comment will now undergo Tommy John surgery and be out for the remainder of the season.

[@bobbobson8087]

Can’t wait to watch baseball in 2077 where every pitcher has robotic arms so they can throw at 200 mph

[@frankthetank520]

All the drama now is combustible based pitches vs non combustible pitches.

[@dtice69]

Some of them will just be built different...

[@bmac4]

Oh and I suppose Pitch-o-Mat 5000 was just a modified Howitzer!

[@adamd5849]

I'd put money on the Jays being in the World Series that year and playing a key game October 24th that year

[@uncreative5766]

Robots? You're making Manfred a very happy man.

[@justaguy1708]

My UCL just hurts listening to this

[@adamthespinygiant]

*MY LEG!!*

[@lilvargyt9964]

Well actually🤓 Ligaments don't have nerves so they can't "hurt"

[@TheDragonsPit]

SWEET LIBERTY MY ARM

[@otaviofrn_adv]

man, the images of the guys being prepped for surgery or on rehab make my stomach churn

[@LogHunterKaz]

RA Dickey really had this figured out. Just be born without a UCL. Problem solved.

[@TylerAForti]

God, it's like getting a used car and adding nitrous knowing it's going to fucking blow up.

[@JahNuhThunDeeTheOneAndOnly]

A used 2005 Mustang GT that is

[@ShudowWolf]

Or a racing engine for a car whose hardware simply can't handle it. Idk 2005 Corolla with 200 MPH engine or some shit

[@Yune98K]

​@@ShudowWolf doubled it up and make it a 1st gen Toyota Prius

[@rickysampson8759]

Then get Tommy John first. Problem solved. You want to make more money than an average person their entire lifetime? Pay for it. Everything had a price. Pay the devil if you want his deal

[@zach_bink]

When i was 12 years old I injured by UCL. I was fortunate to not have to go under the knife to repair it, just physical training and sitting out of a fall ball season, but when Tree talks about the parents being a problem, he isnt kidding. My dad had me throwing 100-200 balls a day, longtossing from center to home on a 50-70 field on a daily basis. It came to a head when my UCL gave out and I physically could not throw anymore. More parent's need to take account of their actions, whether they are doing it on purpose or not, when it comes to their children's health. Plenty of the kids I knew in high school had overbearing fathers who would micromanage every part of their game, forcing them to train and train until they either quit or couldnt play anymore. If you are a coach, keep track of the parents, and if their behavior gets to be too much, have a conversation with their kids to make sure everything is okay at home. As a victim of abuse as a kid I can tell you that most kids will not recognize the symptoms of abuse until they are laid out in front of them

[@FelipeYoshioCordeirodeSouza]

God, that's brutal

[@dimetime35c]

I think in every sport especially if the father played they try and live through their sons. They want them to get to the big leagues. Mainly cause that way they can feel like "see I could have done it if only this or that hadn't happened"

[@johndavis9321]

​@@dimetime35cyup all facts bro

[@archiveacc3248]

And these same parents treat the other parents, and coaches, and umpires, and the people running the league like shit too. They make baseball fucking awful for everyone

[@dimetime35c]

@@johndavis9321 its less about how the kid feels about the game and more about how the dad feels about it. O and it's not just a male thing. Mothers can do the same thing with gymnastics or cheerleading.

[@genemorgan736]

To paraphrase Ian Malcolm, "You were so preoccupied with whether or not you could you didn't even think if you should."

[@BMK500]

Except it’s been proven that Velo drops batting averages and gets you drafted high so of course everyone is gonna chase it

[@KingJori_]

@@BMK500it does all that for a relatively useless profession in the grand scheme of things. I love baseball, but let’s be real.

[@laurenmp7486]

@@BMK500 pitching like Gregg Maddux also drops batting averages, thing is only way to learn how to do it is to actually do it in games. And good luck finding a coach who's willing to let a kid learn how to be a control pitcher.

[@seanjordan6395]

Exactly why humans will be extinct in 200 years

[@TheBenedictchan1]

@@laurenmp7486 What you forget is that Maddux had a more beneficial strike zone for finesse pitchers. You were given a few inches off both sides of the plate, so were able to avoid the barrel of the bat more effectively by either having the hitter reach to the outside of the plate or jam them on the inside. The modern strike zone has tightened up with automated strike zones and robot umpires. Because of that, against the best hitters in the league who have great plate discipline, you have to get them out in the strike zone. Maddux probably still has a great career but not a HOF career in this era of baseball.

[@USBearForce]

When I was at Baylor University working towards my MA degree, I met another grad student who came from out-of-state. He was a married man with a wife and a couple of young kids. One day we were shooting the breeze in the classroom before the professor arrived, and he joked that "Youth sports in Texas are insane. How do I enroll my son in the "My Six Year Old Boy Isn't Going Pro And Neither Is Yours" League?" I thought it was a funny remark at the time. Now I'm not so sure.

[@Harley_Mitchelly]

All comedy is misery. Your remark was funny, precisely because it made light of something terrible.

[@otaviofrn_adv]

comedy is a ahrsh truth spoken in a funny way... maybe he was right all along. It's kind of a problem with parents. Hear George Carlin regarding that.

[@fastpitchwhiz]

Fellow Baylor alum here. Go Bears!

[@nerdstop5025]

​@otaviofrn_adv it's hilarious, that when I was a kid George Carlin was my favorite of the original Thomas the Tank Engine narrator (Sorry Ringo and Alex Baldwin), but now he's become one of my favorite comedians too only person ahead of him is Weird AL for me.

[@delphic464]

My grandfather ruined my MLB career when I was in middle school. He made it very clear that I will never throw breaking pitches...ever. It's one of many fond memories of him. He saved my arm and taught a critical life lesson.

[@tmtmtlsml]

It's been quite a while since I looked into it, but the last studies I saw showed that the stress on the elbow from throwing a curveball (properly) was very slightly less than that of a fastball, but the levels were so close as to be practically equal. The trick is teaching the proper fundamentals of releasing a curveball and letting the wrist do most of the work instead of trying to overdo it and tweak the elbow. Counter-intuitively, throwing nothing but curveballs would have resulted in less cumulative damage on your elbow than throwing just fastballs, provided you had good form

[@RaccoonSwanks]

my grandad did the same thing, he wanted me to pitch like Maddox when i pitched so i focused on control and limited breaking pitches, honestly glad he did that for me too

[@williamhermann6635]

I remember pitching in a game when I was maybe 12 years old. I had never thrown a curveball in my life to that point, not even while playing catch. On one pitch, I think i gripped the ball too tight cuz the ball went right into the dirt. My dad, thoroughly convinced I had just thrown a curveball, pulled me from the game mid at bat. I swear to this day it wasnt a curve, but he didnt care as just getting the point across was for my own protection.

[@ST0NE_206]

MLB went to the NFL and gambled for the injury bug

[@nightmare348]

Dude I feel like my arm needs to go under the knife just listening to this... Holy shit, that's depressing.

[@zanedodge5060]

Same.

[@raineob4996]

Pitching at this point is probably the only position in any North American pro sport (maybe anywhere) where the entire point of the position is to do something the human body was never meant to physically do for extended periods of time.

[@a_coleman11]

my arm got tingly watching this... and I fractured my elbow in 8th grade...

[@henriquemelchiorgomes8750]

@@raineob4996 bowling in cricket is kinda the same

[@uncreative5766]

Basketball is seeing the same issue. Austin Rivers said that younger players are coming into the league with more miles on them because those kids are specializing so early in life and it's given rise to the prevalence of load management. Someone needs to tell these Little League parents that it's ok for their kids to play a variety of sports, be it track, baseball, soccer, and whatever else. It's ok to give these kids a couple of months off to heal.

[@jrob2430]

And that's not a problem you can really fix easily, because if you're not overdoing it, three other kids are. You'd have to have so much natural talent and size to overcome that.

[@uncreative5766]

@@jrob2430 yeah, as Tree mentioned in this video. It's a bad deal for MLB when their best players are missing time because of injury, and it's bad for kids who will now have to spend time dealing with this kind of injury.

[@fortynights1513]

Could it be argued that the pace in the NBA as well as the game being played further away from the basket then it used to also lead to more injuries because you have to potentially cover more space?

[@johndotcue]

@@fortynights1513I’m sure Pace isn’t that big of a deal because Basketball has always been played in a faster pace up until the 90’s. But yeah it’s usually the over training and such that’s affecting these kids in the professional levels. Look at the Ball brothers for example, those dudes could never stay healthy, and they were well known for their hard training regimens in their childhood and adolescence.

[@Mateus_Carvalho]

It will be a thing with all sports if it already isn't. They play too much, they push their body into a breaking point either because there's success down the line and end up a wreck twelve years later if the mind doesn't give out before that.

[@connorbrechbill6516]

You hit the nail on the head tree. It’s the fact that sports are becoming more and more specialized. 20-25 years ago, kids were encouraged to play multiple sports and you did so to take a break from each sport, to stay active year round and to acquire skills from other sports that you may not be able to acquire in that specific sport. Now however, if you want a shot at making it far, taking time away from the sport is almost a death sentence. The moment you fall behind your peers is the moment you lose any shot at making it big. As a result, kids are sticking to one sport year round and are training in that sport more rigorously. In the case of baseball, pitchers are training to throw harder, throw with more spin and break and because they aren’t taking time away from their sport, are taking some serious wear an tear on their arms until they reach a breaking point and they blow out their arm. I’m not sure how this will change. The game will always favor wherever there is an advantage and current pitching is a massive advantage over current hitting

[@phrozen66]

RGIIIs rookie year there was a highlight of him scrambling and then being blown up because he didn't slide. The ESPN commentators were like 'Did he not play baseball as a kid and learn how to slide?' Like it was natural for a athletic kid to play multiple sports throughout the year. I don't think that question would be asked anymore. Another point is Patrick Mahomes, some of his throws look exactly like a 2nd Baseman or SS throwing to turn a double play.

[@jlh4jc]

Definitely this. I played baseball as a youth. But I also learned other sports like tennis, golf, and swimming. Different sports have overlapping skills. Tennis definitely has overlap with baseball in terms of hand-eye coordination. Plus, in both sports, first thing they teach you is handeye coordination. Good example of a great professional athlete that played other sports is Hakeem Olajuwon. He played soccer and developed the quickness that helped him be one of the best centers ever in the NBA.

[@DeadAir21]

Yup. Happening in basketball too. Kids train and play all year round with no rest. By the time they make it to the NBA they start to develop knee and leg problems.

[@drapples9674]

In Cyberpunk 2077 there's a mission where you shut down an underground athlete farm, and one of the kids is a soccer prodigy who's like eight years old with titanium bones and ligaments getting sold for millions. Sad part is how it genuinely seems like a realistic future for professional sports.

[@Zombie1Boy]

Your facing kids from the Dominican and other such counties who have no choice but to do so, thus setting the bar so to speak.

[@coldsnap5742]

It's the warrior's credo, one I see psychopaths on Twitter chant all the time. "Your enemy trained today. Did you?"

[@seanjordan6395]

Maybe we stop letting psychopaths run the conversation

[@BenMan8881]

"Slower speed is sacrificed for better control." I'm thinking of the toughest pitcher I've ever faced in any Baseball game: Toadsworth from Mario Superstar Sluggers. Toadsworth has the slowest pitch in the game by a country mile, but because of both it and the level of control the player that uses him has, it is near impossible to hit off of him because the ball could be flying towards the right side of the batters box before crossing in at the center before continuing towards the left. Good luck hitting something like that. That compared to Bowser in the game is like night and day. Bowser has among the fastest pitches in the game, but I'd rather face Bowser as a pitcher than Toadsworth. What that demonstrates is simple: perhaps, people should aim for slower speed yet greater control. Throw hitters who have adapted to the higher speeds off.

[@blueknight5754]

Boxing, hockey, football….CTE Basketball…ankles and knees Baseball….TJ and shoulder. Price of fame and fortune.

[@Mich-jk2ze]

Everything has its price.

[@Windyyyyyyyyy]

There’s something fascinating how Bartolo Colon managed to last longer than most of the Mets major arms in 2015, despite being old as dirt. The best pitchers are the Swiss Army knives, not the ones who pump gas all the time.

[@phrozen66]

Good control pitchers used to be able to pitch into their 40s at a high level due to less wear through a career and season.

[@otaviofrn_adv]

@@phrozen66 yes, Randy Johnson threw his perfect game at age 40

[@bigredmachine510]

Same thing in basketball too. Players are getting injured like crazy and no one knows or cares why. This is why sports aren’t fun anymore. You can’t play as a casual anymore. Sucks because it ruins these kids lives just for a lower chance than winning the lottery to be drafted professionally.

[@Mich-jk2ze]

They were games, now their careers. The line has been broken between the two.

[@Aerorian]

Thankfully I can say as a soccer ref, there is still a fair number of rec leagues for youth, but even then there’s the occasional crazy parent

[@lpourmirza]

There was a kid from George Mason a few years ago that actually ended up dying from complications to Tommy John (when he was encouraged to get the surgery to help him recover faster) a few years back.

[@DragonDonut64]

How!?

[@samh2431]

Blood clot complication and he died in his sleep the same night or night after

[@Fractured_Unity]

Surgery is dangerous, sometimes when you’re medically put under there’s problems sustaining it or coming out. Sometime doctors make a mistake sometimes it’s just really really bad luck.

[@SBRS47]

Surgery also puts you at risk for thrombosis.

[@Redpoppy80]

The "necessary" risk of any surgery.

[@bulldawgslays3724]

5:35 can confirm the last one. I graduated HS in 2018 and we had 3 really good starters. 2 threw low to mid 90s and were committed to ole miss and LSU respectively. The other threw low 80s with a good change up and great curveball in mid 60s and out pitched both most of the time. The 2 SEC guys blew their arms out and the other guy played for a low level D1 for 4 years but they’re all done playing now.

[@Otterloin]

I'm a high school coach for swimming, and the issue is rampant for kids' shoulders. We've had to add stretching to the beginning of each practice to keep them healthy, but it's a losing battle in some cases. They start the year at club go into high school then the day after high school state it's back to club. Summer league starts almost immediately after club, it's non stop. I think it's starting to take a toll as even the top athletes are not interested in doing college swimming even with the NIL opportunities. I can't imagine the constant wear and tear won't affect them long-term. Kids need a break, but if they take that break they fall behind I don't know the answer.

[@GaijinBaseball]

If you want more proof that it's the training, Japan dealt with this problem from the 70s through the 90s. Kids would be throwing absolutely ridiculous amounts throughout junior high, high school and university, and the consequences were DIRE. One by one aces would emerge for a season or two, then disintigrate. Most famously Isamu Kida. As a rookie in 1980 he put up the best season of any pitcher in the 80s, 8.1 WAR, MVP, helped put his Nippon-Ham Fighters over the edge into serious contender status, and this was in the best offensive year in NPB history, when batters set a record for the most collective home runs in a season. He immediately fell of the next season and didn't even put up 8.1 WAR for the rest of his career. He is once of MANY who had that kind of career path. Satoshi Niimi, Shinji Imanaka, Tomohito Itoh, Kojiro Ikegaya, Hideyuki Awano, the list goes on and on.

[@hagamapama]

Yes and another example is Matsuzaka Daisuke, who came to America, pitched brilliantly for half a season in 2007, and then fell off the face of the earth. I was watching him and in August of 07 after arguably being the second best pitcher on the team after Josh Beckett that year, suddenly he was missing his pitches, his velocity was down at least 2 MPH and he wasn't fooling hitters anymore. Guy was off to a great start and looked like a phenom and then it was just... gone.

[@Eye-See-U]

@@hagamapamaI think dice k was better in 08 then after that he fell off a cliff. But those teams were amazing bro I loved going to Fenway during that time shit was packed every game

[@OshiZlebaseball]

What about Yuki Sato's case the dude shined at the Koshien at 18 deafeating Mashrio Tanaka. And hes never had the carrer as Tanka had. But his arm was worn out to was it not.

[@jroggs85]

Did Japan fix or at least improve this problem? If so, how?

[@GaijinBaseball]

@@jroggs85 Yeah, adopting the 6 man rotation in the early 2000s was one of the biggest things that helped. Because of the way NPB's schedule works (games Tuesday to Sunday, Monday off) it meant pitchers were able to get more rest between starts and potentially go deeper into games as well. You'll regualrly see guys go 110 pitches every game throughout a season and be fine, even guys who can crank it up to the mid 90s or higher. Of the ace pitchers in Japan right now, the only one with major injury concerns is Roki Sasaki, who has yet to pitch a qualified season.

[@metropod]

My cousin pitched in the Dodgers organization for a very short period of time and ended up needing it. It derailed his career completely. In the positive side, he’s now a hero in a very different uniform… an FDNY firefighter.

[@408feet]

Tree is right as always. Doesn't matter if you're a kid in high school or in Tee Ball, that shit gets into the parent's heads. My father had a cooler head when I played throughout but once I got into Baseball Factory everything changed. He wanted me to throw every day in the backyard until my arm hurt. My backyard was big enough to be 3/4 of a high school baseball field by the way. He told me that my arm being sore helps strengthen it and I believed him until it was too late. It kept hurting no matter what. I had pitched, played catcher, shortstop, and the outfield throughout my entire playing career and I was always throwing from fall ball to spring ball to summer ball. The only time I ever had a break was during the winter, and even then I was exercising my arm to strengthen it more. The grind doesn't stop when you play baseball. It merely gets tougher and takes a toll on you. So I stood up to my father and stopped throwing and I eventually quit once I went to college. If you're a ballplayer reading this, wise up and stand up to your parents!

[@CincyMetalDrummer]

If there's one pitcher that should be the poster child for Tommy John surgeries, it should be Tejay Antone. He just had surgery today to not only repair his UCL for the third time, but his flexor mass tendon had torn completely off the bone. He has had previous Tommy John surgeries in 2017 and 2021. The dude has not been able to catch a break since his 2021 surgery.

[@fallout3fanboy1]

Oh boy, i get to have PTSD after watching a video on people breaking thier arms after throwing.

[@1dollarHat]

No

[@kaphizmey6229]

i have no idea how we have so many defensive errors to start the year, like we should have done so much better that series. kudos to the pirates at least, plus we swept the red sox later so that’s nice

[@Beavie]

I've genuinely seen a kid who was in Peewee (age group 12-13) have Tommy John, and I live in New Brunswick where the most prominent MLB player we have had is Matt Stairs. It's a mindset that I tried to avoid pitching as a kid. I was always a control pitcher, hitting my spots. I didn't even learn breaking balls until High school. The obsession with "perfecting the pitcher" has gotten to an extreme and people are breaking down like mad. Genuinely, this is a long time coming. I think it'll come down to changing the mentality at a young age. But some small things which can help limit it until then: Pitch clock: Don't get rid of it. But instead increase it by maybe 5 seconds. It may seem small, but an extra moment or two to breathe can help. Rotation: Expand the roster size and rotation. Instead of five or six in the rotation, maybe change it to 7 or 8, and add an extra person or two in the bullpen. I know it may stink not seeing your star pitch for over a week, but an extra few days of rest can help. Schedule: I know someone complained about a player saying to reduce the amount of games, however, I think if you're not going to reduce the number of games, tweak the schedule a little. Have spring training start a couple weeks early and allow each team to have most weeks at least 2 days of rest. I think that may reduce the wear and tear.

[@SuperSaiyanGuyver]

I don't know much about baseball but these seem like reasonable, very small changes that could help players without disrupting the business model (because that will always come first, like it or not) or fan experience. Good points.

[@archiveacc3248]

Lol mlb won't allow two days of rest per week. Reduces the money they make and thats all the league and billionaires cares about. Same reason why NFL doesn't want two bye weeks

[@SuperSaiyanGuyver]

@@archiveacc3248 How will that affect the money the owners make if they're still playing the same amount of games just scheduled differently? Aside from weekends and holidays if attendance is about the same game to game how is spreading them out going to hurt their bottom line? I said above I'm not real familiar so if there's a factor I don't know about that's on me.

[@otaviofrn_adv]

162 games is beyond absurd

[@macweilman535]

Spring training starting early is not a good idea, players do their own prep before spring training so this just makes their offseason shorter

[@BMK500]

I’m really glad you touched on the youth baseball part. What people don’t realize is that a dude with an electric fastball that got drafted in the first round has thrown more pitches from 12-18 (19,21,22 if he goes to college) that he ever will in MLB. If you aren’t throwing at least 88 in high school you can forget about college (JUCO is an option but baseballs talent pool is so widespread their top guys will sit 90-94 then go in to a D1 school or get drafted) Hell a competitive high school pitcher will be throwing around 86 at least. The sad thing about it is it won’t get better. Velo and spin rate has made Batting averages plummet because who is hitting a 95 mph slider or a slider at 88 that has 4 feet of break. Even if you guessed right on that pitch good luck getting a good swing on it And this ain’t even a new issue. This has been a problem for years but all of a sudden it gets thrust into the spotlight now? Last point I’ve got is Ive got my own opinions of the dude but Bauer’s insights on pitching are 100% correct. All of the bio mechanical shit about pitching he talks about is exactly what everyone is now doing. To include the 9 year old who just started pitching.

[@laurenmp7486]

Gregg Maddux made pitches move all over the place without throwing hard. The idea you can only make a pitch move like crazy if you throw hard is bunk, thing is a lot of coaches they just stick with velocity cause it's easy. Way easier to just get kids throwing hard than to put in the work letting them develop in other ways.

[@BMK500]

@@laurenmp7486 a) the amount of work you have to put in to just throw low 90’s is insane. It’s hard af to touch 95+ B) Maddux still had a stupid amount of spin rate to make the pitches move like they did which is what they also focus on today. It is not easier to get a kid to throw hard than it is to get him to pitch well. Throwing hard takes a stupid amount of strength and coordination that very few people can do.

[@user-hs5vb6kc9o]

It's relatively easy to understand. About 10 years ago I remember Aroldis Chapman going to the mound in the All-Star game and they put up a graphic with something along the lines of "Pitches 100+ mph: Chapman 100, Entire MLB 15". Those aren't the exact numbers but I do remember it was orders of magnitude higher, making it clear that a pitcher able to consistently throw 100mph was basically unheard of in the league at the time. Now virtually every team has one or even SEVERAL starters that can reach 100mph repeatedly throughout a game, and probably a couple bullpen guys that do the same. Using another sport about throwing things as an example, in the shot put it's theorized that the current world record is just a bit under what humanly possible. Throwing it further is "possible", but the force needed for it would destroy the athletes fingers, wrist, elbow and even shoulder. In baseball I think we are witnessing what the limits are for constantly and consistently throwing high velocity pitches. It's very likely that, to put it simply, we have literally reached the peak of what the human body can withstand before consistently breaking down. That doesn't mean there won't be some isolated examples here and there of guys capable of putting their body through that strain and not get injured, but it's all downhill from now.

[@christmashake8968]

Aroldis really was the canary in the coal mine for MLB pitchers, wasn't he?

[@user-hs5vb6kc9o]

@@christmashake8968 Not really. In my opinion he falls under that rare exceptional case where his body does withstand the punishment because he, to use the corresponding cliche, is just "built different". I remember him in his beginnings in Cuba as an extremely skinny, tall kid with a crappy wind up and shit control, and still consistently hitting the 97mph. Oh, and he was a starter, so to a certain extent he was "saving" energy to last longer in the game. He wasn't a particularly good pitcher in his beginnings because his control was awful but the speed was already there. After going to MLB he cleaned up his technique a bit and developed his body, plus being used as a closer allowed him to go all out in every game, so that's why 100mph became a breeze for him. Another cuban pitcher a bit older than Chapman who was also a regular over 100mph was Maels Rodriguez. He was a better pitcher than Chapman in Cuba because he was able to actually sustain those 100mph balls though most of the game. He had some control issues as well but he could overcome them with a lot of SOs and by the fact that, unlike Chapman, he was rarely hit. But Maels' body did break down. When he went to MLB he started to get injured so he was never able to get his career off the ground.

[@chinotekensei]

TJ surgery always reminds me of a friend in high school over a decade ago who threw out his arm in summer baseball and had to miss almost his entire senior year of sports recovering from TJ. And when he did finally come back, our coach only ever let him pitch when the other 3-4 starters' arms were dead. He just couldn't throw well enough long enough for our coach to want to put him in just to go to the dugout in the 3rd.

[@GarandGunner]

My Dad is a physical therapist that works with a lot of high school athletes. His biggest piece of advice for young athletes: play more than one sport, or at least do not play the same sport year round. The biggest culprits being basketball, volleyball and baseball. You NEED time to rest, especially at a developing young age, especially for sports that put a lot of strain on one or two particular parts. My sister was an outstanding athlete, she ended up running track in college but her best sport was volleyball. But she never got scouted or recruited for volleyball largely because she played other sports and didn't play year round club volleyball. He would always point out, "do you know how you can tell who plays club volleyball? They're the ones in knee braces."

[@theman13451]

Kids are throwing college league level breaking stuff at 11 years old. It's insane the amount of torque that is put on these arms so young. Year round play also doesn't help.

[@austinemms9772]

Oh boy, the MLB has a major issue that has no clear solution. Let me know when the sky doesn’t have clouds in it.

[@sk8paradoxity]

there is at least one clear solution, having less games. in 1876 a baseball season was only 70 games; we are now well past double that with 162 games in a season. Scaling back the amount of games scales back the number of throws, which will inherently lower the number of injuries.

[@DragonDonut64]

@@sk8paradoxityWe can add that to the list of shit that’ll never happen without a zombie apocalypse or nuclear war. While that is true, a more likely change could be to change the league rule to allow more people on the roster. More specifically the pitching. Larger bullpen, more starting pitchers on rotation, equals more rest days. Sure that would involve also raising the cap space and paying & drafting more pitchers, but still.

[@someguy23475]

Pitchers, at least starters, throw far fewer pitches now than in the 1960s and 70s. It’s how they throw that’s the problem.

[@DennyJr22]

​@@DragonDonut64The solution is to cut the number of pitchers on the roster, not expand it. Less available rested arms means SP's can't throw 110% every pitch since they'll now need to go more than 4-5 innings. The MLB agrees, there's a good chance the max pitchers on a roster are going from 13 to 12 next season.

[@jroggs85]

​​@@sk8paradoxity Sorry, but that "clear solution" is awful. 1. It screws everyone by drastically slashing revenue and earnings across the board. 2a. Fewer innings mostly just means a reduced need for total number of pitchers. Every team will still want their best pitchers throwing as much as possible. 2b. This doesn't do anything to fix the constant drive for a competitive edge, which is the main source of the problem. In fact, it makes it worse by lowering the demand for quantity. 3. If pitchers are expected to pitch fewer innings, they'll be heavily incentivized to work themselves even harder during the reduced time they do spend on the mound. 4. It's a drastic and destructive change to the nature of the league for little or no benefit. Not saying I have a "clear solution" of my own. I strongly doubt there is one, especially at the MLB level itself.

[@cmd31220]

I think what you're seeing is pitcher reaching the physical human limit of how hard you can throw a baseball. No matter how much you train and exercise, your ligaments, bones, and muscles all have the same failure points. And now that everyone and their mother is throwing 95+, more and more people are reaching those failure points. This made even worse by the fact that pitchers are starting earlier and earlier. What's made QBs unstoppable gods in football is now unaliving pitchers in baseball.

[@griffins750]

Yeah the difference is QBs can play around it, part of their skills like being able to get the ball out of the pocket quickly actively help prevent injury... A perfect game for a QB leads to him not getting injured or even hitting the ground, a perfect game for a pitcher actively increases his progress towards destroying his body...

[@davyt0247]

That’s exactly it.

[@YTN1112]

@@griffins750yup! Doing the best you can as QB(escpailly with avoiding sacks) actively decreases their chances of injury and increases their longevity without getting injuries. It’s the opposite for pitchers.

[@RAAM855]

I think there's gonna be someone whose gonna have a nasty knuckleball. Then suddenly it'll Kickstart a trend all teams will chase since a starter that is as hard to hit as a superhuman fastball machine but lasts 10x as long on the mound will be lucrative. When the bodies limit is reached people will find ways around it using technique and the irl equivalent of hacks Always have and always will.

[@nickna7387]

True, drew Brees said in an interview he cant lift his right arm above his shoulder anymore due to throwing for 5000 yards every year and it showed in his last season. Couldn't throw further than 20 yards, imagine if he retired 8-10 years earlier

[@TheEnderTaz25]

I played baseball from age 8 until end of high school and I can confirm this. Starting at age 10 it was pony league in the fall through spring, all stars from May to June, and travel ball until fall league again. I pitched, caught, and played third base. My dad never let me throw a curve ball until high school and that might have saved my arm. I relied on a fastball, cutter, change up, and good control. Unfortunately, many of my friends who pitched on those teams have permanent arm damage, and only a few made it to college. Coaches don’t care about proper form and training once you get to age 12 or 13. They’ll do anything to win, even at the expense of kids’ health.

[@tmtmtlsml]

It's been quite a while since I looked into it, but the last studies I saw showed that the stress on the elbow from throwing a curveball (properly) was very slightly less than that of a fastball, but the levels were so close as to be practically equal. The trick is teaching the proper fundamentals of releasing a curveball and letting the wrist do most of the work instead of trying to overdo it and tweak the elbow. The problem is that there isn't just *one* problem. It's a cumulative effect of never having an off-season, less well-rounded athletics as opposed to the new specialized curriculum which results in repetitive stress injuries. Even with perfect form, using the same muscles, tendons, and ligaments over and over and over with no chance for recovery is going to lead to injury eventually. The only question is when

[@Donald_the_Potholer]

You're probably right about their priorities, but I'd think that at least 9 out of 10 coaches at U14 level wouldn't know "proper form" if it beaned them.

[@carlhicksjr8401]

That's because of two things: 1. Nobody is saying it but pitchers are getting paid by the at-the-plate strikeout. It's like a sweatshop in shitty Fanatic stipper pants. 2. The MLB has discouraged all the slow, cagey pitches that would extend the outing for a pitcher and extend the career for his arm. Nowadays, throwing a looping screwball to the inside between 70 and 80 mph results in a formal warning by the ump and getting pulled from the mound by the manager. As far as analytic-crazed teams are concerned, if you can't throw 95+ mph heat 150 times a game you might as well have your fingers cut off. Result: Some Little League-rabid parents who think they got the next Randy Johnson in tennie-runners are actually inquiring about Tommy John surgery on kids younger than 16.

[@Kellum1969]

Why would a screwball cause an ump to warn the pitcher?

[@MadSpeed261]

@@Kellum1969 That's what i was thinking. That's not in the MLB rulebook for what i know, and that is blatant misinformation that Carl Fools here just committed. I can say it's the pitching philosophy that's messing up these arms and heads of these pitchers. High velo with spin rate = highlight's of the pitcher. Off speed and/or breaking pitches does not equal highlights to these pitching coaches.

[@carlhicksjr8401]

@@Kellum1969 It was a bit of hyperbole on my part. My point is that there was a time when an expert pitcher had a whole repertoire of pitches that made complete games not only possible but fairly routine. Nowadays what would once be called a brushback pitch gets a warning from the ump.

[@HeathNation2465]

Tree you said something very revealing in your assessment. About how pitching has become a "Quest For Speed". And this explains the problem I personally have with Baseball today: The oversaturation and overemphasis of analytics and metrics. You got teams, scouts, and a bunch of fans (heck you'll find them here on KZbin) who make a big deal about numbers that make NO DIFFERENCE when it comes to actually playing the game. And when they see these numbers increase, much like a gambler, they will raise the ante without giving thought to the situation or circumstances. Whatever happened to just looking at performance instead of a speed counter?

[@aidanwow1593]

The pitch clock is a new rule from an old unwritten rule. The problem is the pressure on the arm. I used to pitch. I never had a problem between pitches, but I would wear down the more often I threw, and tbh I probably need TJ.

[@onefalcon7536]

This reminds me of when Melee players used to get carpal tunnel all the time. Players likee Hax$ have fucked up their hands for life to reach perfection.

[@pamoon_]

I like this example because I can think of like one guy who would be considered the unorthodox pitcher in Melee Jigglypuff = an unhittable knuckleball

[@Vmac1394]

Starcraft players have absolutely wrecked wrists by the time they're 30.

[@AdderTude]

@@Vmac1394 Because most SC players have APM like a sprinting crackhead.

[@Riptide27]

The criticism of parents pushing their kids train from a very young age is spot on! I remember when I was growing up, kids weren’t even allowed to throw curveballs until they reached high school because of the damage it can do to a young arm. Now they’re throwing them in little league!

[@tmtmtlsml]

It's been quite a while since I looked into it, but the last studies I saw showed that the stress on the elbow from throwing a curveball (properly) was very slightly less than that of a fastball, but the levels were so close as to be practically equal. The trick is teaching the proper fundamentals of releasing a curveball and letting the wrist do most of the work instead of trying to overdo it and tweak the elbow.

[@owenschnitzler9340]

And this is why baseball was never a year round thing when I played youth sports, no matter how much I loved it. My parents always forced in variety. Soccer in the fall, swimming in the summer. I wasn’t allowed to switch to fall baseball until I turned 11. And I think I’m okay with that.

[@bmac4]

Baseball Historian has another similar video on the subject, and brought up a really salient point on the story of Sang Ho-Baek, a college pitcher who died after a blood clot linked to the surgery. Every surgery has risks and this is an extreme example, but it's a warning sign that Tommy Johns are very much serious affairs. About 1 in 5 guys never return to their peak potential after the surgery, and even unluckier guys can end up with more serious complications.

[@georgec5212]

You can get a blood clot from almost any surgery

[@patring303]

This increasing trend is going to look really bad in hindsight with the explosion of studies about to come out. A lot of medical people have started looking at young throwers and it’s all saying that throwing at a young age, period, is causing what we see. And unfortunately there’s an easy solution that will never happen: increase the roster size, shorten the season, and increase rest days. That’s the only need, more rest. Let the pitcher rest their elbow for the entire inflammation process (entire healing for better results) before pitching again. But like you mentioned with the young sports mentality, that will never happen because “you need to throw!”.

[@maxwasson2000]

Would an expansion of the rosters, also imply the expansion of the minor league system?

[@evrbody]

I long for the days when Satchel Paige would pitch over 300 times a season while throwing 119 mph and still had the energy to rub one out at the end of the night.

[@anonymoususer3012]

ayo?

[@SuperSaiyanGuyver]

I feel older and broken down just watching this. One solution? Less games. Old baseball schedules were made with less emphasis on MORE. Players weren't doing this for years before (and also medical advances to make increased production possible weren't around, not just the surgeries but really we've made a lot of strides in the science of fitness to make these performances possible). I know it'll never happen because money. Heck, the NFL would have baseball's schedule if they weren't afraid it'd end in more Damar Hamlins. But it'd probably work.

[@epicchk4319]

MLB We are making more games for money UEFA Amateurs, we are making entire unnecessary leagues ( Nations League, Conference League) just for money

[@Donald_the_Potholer]

@@epicchk4319 Personally, with some of these teams, I _wish_ MLB was 2-tiered with annual P&R at times.

[@belacickekl7579]

One small comment on Spencer Torkelson's Tommy John: that was more like a freak accident where he fell wrong on his arm than a throwing issue, as I recall. Great video, Tree!

[@memphis4590]

I'm suddenly glad I never took pitching seriously and just went with basketball. Good God, I thought the TJs happening on the Rays was just hard luck, now I see it's a true fundamental issue in training, and it's a league wide problem

[@RVDfanman1]

I think the fix to this is to ease off the speed and start working on pitches that will have less movement without having to overclock your arm on every throw. I've long been a proponent of bringing back the knuckleball and I think it would behoove more people to learn how to throw it. I don't think that one singular pitch will fix things, but a shift of kids learning to throw it along with teens and college players will push pitchers in the right direction. Thinking of a long-term solution, I don't really have anything. I admittedly don't know much about this, but it's certainly an interesting problem. Edit: Thinking about the science and them trying to find the most efficient pitcher and velocity, I'm reminded of a quote from Jurassic Park: "You were so occupied with finding out if you could, that you never stopped to think if you *should*.

[@joshuaguste6883]

The life of players the sacrifice; the stadiums the altars; professional sports the idol of our worship.

[@manzac112]

I feel like this is something you can't fix. I think the pitch clock does have its downside, but this has been going on since the beginning. Sometimes some sports don't need to progress or be specialized. I think people need to understand there's no such thing as perfection.

[@antonioreconquistador]

Its something steroids attempted to fix- accelerated development and recovery at the cost of long term endocrine and cardiovascular health when not properly checked/balanced. The same deal with joints and ligaments and stem cells might create a new generation of guys who can throw their body weight behind elbow and shoulder stressful splitters and sliders, but at a cost to integrity and fairness.

[@matthewkarloski4775]

There is a way, but it’d be heavily criticized and very hard to implement, and that is to put throwing limits per day on kids 18 years and younger with extended rest period during off-season. Either by law or mlb’s own rules, which would ban any kid doing more from playing in the mlb, coaches banned from coaching baseball, and parents (if they know) fined. It’s arguably extreme and controversial especially if it was a government law, but imo that’d be the only way to stop it. As for how to implement, it’d be extremely difficult cause coaches, parents, and to an extent kids are incentivized to perfect the pitchers’ arm and get them drafted and into the mlb, and you can’t test it like steroids. It’d have to be other parents or undercover operations to uncover any breach, which again might be difficult to do.

[@onefalcon7536]

What about more unorthodox pitches like Knuckle balls. Players like Dickey made a living off being unorthodox pitchers.

[@DragoniteSpam]

@@onefalcon7536 The knuckleball is the ultimate gambit in baseball, in that it takes years and years of focusing on pretty much exclusively with only a small chance of paying off. That and - by the sound of it - there aren't many people around who can teach you how to throw it anymore. It'd be really cool to see happen, but it's (currently) not a winning strategy on the game theory matrix.

[@derleumedia]

@@matthewkarloski4775 or implement a speed limit in high school: more than 90 mph -> automatically no strike

[@pamoon_]

If you've noticed too, this is also happening in other youth sports like basketball where injuries occur IF one is able to make it to the big leagues. The body can only take so much wear and tear as it's still growing...

[@captainfierce8508]

Congrats on cracking 600k hopefully Tree

[@davyt0247]

This video probably break that plane

[@Donald_the_Potholer]

IIRC, he hit 600k shortly after posting video 1k.

[@uhhhmaeve]

I recently tore the labrum in my right shoulder, which has resulted in me learning a lot about the recovery process for sports injuries - and let me just say THANK FUCKING GOD I didn't have youth sports parents who insisted on me throwing my childhood and health on the line to throw ball hard

[@DiscoKing02]

You always make great content, but this was really top notch. Everything was perfectly laid out, and I feel videos like this can genuinely help the situation, even if it's just a little bit. Hats off, and thanks Tree.

[@andrewpalmer8116]

I thought this was just going to be another video blaming the pitch clock for all these injuries. Glad you found some fantastic points.

[@otaviofrn_adv]

yes. as Tree said, the clock aggravates the problem. I still think it's a necessity, with all the timeouts and the long time before pitches the game was going slower than a snail. Very few players had a reasonable timing. But it's far from the cause. Tree exposed them all. Tommy John at 14 it's nuts.

[@AdderTude]

@@otaviofrn_adv The time between pitches was all a mental game for many, many years. Just because people have much shorter attention spans now...that's on the fans, not the game itself.

[@otaviofrn_adv]

@@AdderTude but this crossed the line of mental games a long time ago. Not only the time between pitches, but all the timeouts and managers going to the mound as well

[@ezaf-bayleaf9043]

I know its sounds like old boomer talk but I think a big part of the problem is pitchers don't throw "Off Speed" anymore. Back in the day a pitcher might start you off on a 93 mph fastball but the next pitches would be curveballs and changeups in the low 80's. Now pitchers will throw 90+mph sliders and sweepers instead. Coaches would often tell players to only throw X number of fastballs to save their arms but today's pitcher might use well be throwing nothing but fastballs with how hard they throw all pitches even if they're supposed to be more "Control" and "Finesse" based.

[@jagartharn6361]

also the legit fireball pitchers back then like Seaver and Ryan had far better pitching mechanics.

[@TyrannoJoris_Rex]

@@jagartharn6361 Ryan late in his career when he was working with Tom House, sure. Seaver, no

[@laurenmp7486]

@@jagartharn6361 Seaver and Ryan also grew up pitching just for fun, going out and pitching to some friends or through a tire or whatever. They didn't have someone lording over them to throw hard, they developed into it.

[@jagartharn6361]

@@TyrannoJoris_Rex Seaver had bad mechanics?

[@jagartharn6361]

@@laurenmp7486 and?

[@Khaoki]

The combo of the increasing insanity of youth baseball and taking away the pro's sticky stuff and forcing them to grip the ball as hard as possible has led to not so great results

[@kaphizmey6229]

and it’s unfortunate, because what can you do about youth sports? parents are fucking crazy

[@Mich-jk2ze]

@@kaphizmey6229true. Sadly, I feel like the only protocol is let them see their kids destroy themselves because of their overbearing beliefs and realize that no kid should be subjected to this stuff so young.

[@clemenx]

Nobody is forcing anyone. They should have adjusted to throwing with less grip instead of squeezing as hard as possible Losing some spin rate isnt going to kill them.

[@internetzenmaster8952]

Little League Baseball umpire for the last 18 years: I can confirm that it has gotten crazy. The stuff we're seeing up in the big leagues is being pushed down the chain toward little leagues _way_ too fast for my liking.

[@aarronvanburen8612]

Please tell me how the flexor carpi ulnaris, radialius, and digitorum have on tricep extension. How would the origin of these muscles on the forearm act upon the UCL which connects the humerus to the radial and ulnar bones? Grip has nothing to do with it. It's the forces at the terminal part of the movement and increased specializing in one sport. This results in only one joint angle being worked, and muscle fibers reacting under the SAID principle. More rest, roster size increase and throwing no more than 2x a week would be my attempt to solve it.

[@theguy2400]

jimmy highroller brought up a similar issue in the NBA how kids are asked to cut more quickly, the speed of the game got more complex, kids being taught at a young age to do constantly improve, i think we are reaching the limits of the human body for all sports...

[@AdderTude]

In terms of Chinaball, they also watch the big star players take all manner of steps without dribbling right before putting up a shot. Such flash is the kind of dumb stuff they want to emulate especially in high school.

[@NOT_Brian]

Great video Tree, jesus christ I had no idea it was sooooo deep and insane with this. God damn, no one in their teens should have ligament surgery

[@pcbullets8726]

Yeah, it's gotten pretty serious. I wouldn't expect to see much change in the future. Every organization has fallen in love with velocity and spin rates. Maybe if a few of these teams end up eating a few contracts like the Nationals just did recently, it might change things, but unlikely. Great video!

[@floralgem]

Another issue that's underrated is the decrease of the multi sport athlete. Many greats (Jordan, Judge, etc.) didn't just play their main sport. They would play others, Judge specifically played football and basketball when he wasn't playing baseball, and was even picked for a Notre Dame scholarship. Those sports don't just let your muscles from your "main sport" rest, it's gives you others skills that can easily translate into your main sport. But because people are treating mainline sports as if they were the very few specialized sports like swimming and gymnastics, you get more overuse injuries. And it's a sad commentary on the increase of elite youth sports, which keeps pushing the next level as if it's a chase for the majors.

[@bolbyballinger]

Speaking of gymnastics, what we allow that world to get away with is fucking heinous. These girls get to 20 and the discussion turns to retirement because of their age. Like, how do people say that and not realize how bad that is? Like, a linebacker's literal job is to slam into somebody at full speed on every single play and they still get into their 30s before retiring. That's how insane the amount of wear and tear is in gymnastics. And you can only get that from massive overuse of the body. I can guaran-fucking-tee you Simone Biles and everyone else on the mat for the Olympics is taking enough painkillers to drop an elephant. I don't hear much about it but the addiction to painkillers has to be a serious issue for them. Was for NFL players back in the day to the point where tv shows did episodes about it.

[@TheForeverRanger]

Mahomes is the modern poster child for playing multiple sports. I mean it helps that his dad was a pitcher in the bigs for over a decade.

[@floralgem]

@@bolbyballinger As a huge gymnastics fan I agree. Especially back in the 80's/90's, you saw how the girls "peaking" were only 14-16, that is not viable. The age change to 16 helped but it took years for it to actually make a difference and make people not rush athletes just for the sake of Olympic and World titles. It's now at a point where athletes can stay in if their coaches/feds know how to pace athletes. We saw someone who was the world champion from 2006 get an olympic medal in Tokyo, along with most of the athletes being in their early 20's and planning on staying. Figure skating needs to get there, though they did a similar age minimum of 17, but who knows.

[@reedermh]

@@TheForeverRanger He played not only football and baseball, but also basketball. You wonder how he can throw a no-look pass to Travis? There's your answer.

[@floralgem]

@@reedermh 100%. Back when I did competitive cheer in school, my coaches were always encouraging us to take on a spring sport, specifically track, because they knew how much it would help during the season (cheer was 2 seasons instead of the typical 1 for a normal sport). But this attitude changing is going to take a lot.

[@SirZapdos]

Good call on the Perfect Dark music. Also yikes at that scar at 8:30.

[@kaphizmey6229]

as an orioles fan, that ending clip made my soul ache as much as this video did my ucl (i don’t even know what the hell gunnar henderson was doing on that play)

[@KRJayster]

… nope, not gonna say it. EDIT: Having now actually watched the video, the thing I appreciate most is you calling out the problem among kids and teenagers. Injuries among younger amateur players is something I feel isn't brought up enough, and seeing kids basically being pushed to the point that their bodies are breaking down is really tragic. Watching one of my class mates in high school having to be driven off of the field in an ambulance has stuck with me for almost twenty years at this point. And not to discourage anyone's dreams, but consider how few of those young players will ever get near something like the college level, let alone professional stuff. And yeah, I don't know what real solutions there are.

[@zachwwwwwwwosofkd12949]

What were you gonna say

[@blackreign673]

i thought i was gonna shred my arm off after a season of a community dodgeball league, couldn't imagine what these guys feel

[@waynestell2808]

I feel there should be more emphasis on finesse and control rather than power and velocity. Mainly in regards to starters. Maybe we won't see so many arm and elbow injuries happen to pitchers. Mind you, the Braves' big 3 during the 1990s (Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, and John Smoltz) weren't power pitchers by any means.

[@alanpomietlarz4932]

From what I gather, if pitchers are getting injured more often because they are throwing so much, then what should fundamentally change should be how big the roster size is. The problem of having too many injuries for pitchers because of their arms giving out can maybe be solved by increasing the roster size for MLB teams. If you can only carry 13 pitchers on a roster from Opening Day to August 31st, then increase the number of pitchers on your team. Will this solve the problem of UCL tears and people throwing harder because of the advances of technology and technique? No, but having a bigger roster that includes more pitchers on the active roster could allow for more rest time in between starts, which can help with giving more recovery time to how the game of baseball has evolved to what it is today. Just because there is a farm system for Triple A for each MLB team does not help the fact that bringing up a pitcher from those areas just to have enough pitchers on a roster when you could have already just started with more pitchers on the roster to begin with. A 5 or 4 man starting pitching rotation is an old-school ideology that might not even exist anymore in the era of modern baseball. Personally, I think increasing the number of pitchers for each MLB team from 13 to 17 should be an idea to combat the epidemic of arms giving out. Add two more starters and 2 more relievers to each roster and see if it helps with longer rest times. This also helps players by getting more pitchers into the game of baseball to actually be able to pitch on a MLB mound. Even if this idea does not fix how pitchers' elbows are getting blown out, this is a very basic, simple way to at least address the problem. Does it actually fix elbows? No, but for something that can easily be done for MLB teams by changing the 26 man roster to a 30 man roster to account for the rise in injuries to pitchers in the modern MLB is one way to address this epidemic. How teams then utilize the increase in the amount of pitchers on a team could be helpful for the development of baseball. This would keep all the changes with the pitch clock and new rule changes, but if people are saying that in a sport with no cap space that adding more people to a roster to help give pitchers more time to recover is a bad thing seems a little shortsighted. I am interested to hear UrinatingTree's opinion on this.

[@TheJasonBigdaddy]

I swear my Dad and you are hitting the same notes about baseball

[@dungtrumpet5490]

With the emphasis on speed and analytics, I think we'll be lucky to ever see many more knuckleball pitchers in the majors.

[@HalooINC]

But Tree! I've seen at least 2 and 1/2 video essays about Japanese Baseball and the insane amount of reps they do and I was assured that they get hurt less and do less damage to their arms! I WAS ASSURED TREE, IT WAS A VIDEO ESSAY IT HAS TO BE ACCURATE AND SCIENTIFIC AND REASONABLE.

[@kaphizmey6229]

op is apparently just learning that the japanese are legit superhuman

[@perturbedbatman2009]

Every kid wants to grow up to be the next Jordan, LeBron, Mahomes, Brady, etc. Often times, the problem comes when their parents want that too, and want it way more than the kids. I remember hearing about how Lonzo Ball would jog up hills as exercise well before he got drafted, and I can’t help but wonder if he can’t stay on the court at least partly because of that. Legs have limits to how much they can be used, and how often. Arms too. I also think things will get worse before they get better, and the most coveted athletes won’t be those who throw fastest, hardest, furthest, etc., but those who can stay relatively healthy. Anyone would take an ok player who is available over a fantastic player who isn’t.

[@phrozen66]

Mahomes was a two sport athlete in high school and the reason he landed at Texas Tech and wasn't recruited by bigger schools is that most thought he would turn pro in baseball before becoming a starter.

[@TheForeverRanger]

@@phrozen66 Drafted by the Detroit Tigers. Shoot a lot of QBs were two sport athletes. Elway, Mahomes, Jameis, Wilson, Stafford, Brady, etc were all QBs that did both football and baseball. The Royals famously took both Elway and Marino in the same draft.

[@shorewall]

Lonzo and Lamelo Ball are both destroyed. I think we can put that one as fact.

[@reedermh]

@@phrozen66 Actually he played three sports; he played basketball too. And that's where he learned to throw those insane no-look passes he does.

[@NextHW5]

Played high level HS and low level college - almost every guy I played with in HS had shoulder or elbow issues (pitchers and players alike) by the end of HS or during college.

[@seanragsdale5636]

Baseball is one of the few things that gets me through summer (something I loved following late at night listening to Braves radio), and everyone that runs from the players union to the commissioner is completely incompetent to fix a serious issue. I hate it

[@AdderTude]

The commissioner is also a total doormat, letting the umpires union walk all over him.

[@Thee_It]

As a soon to be College pitcher myself I can say it's physically tiring for my body, I do love it since I'm a lefty throwing low to mid 80s but my back hurts from time to time and my legs have hurt more than my arm has at some points

[@adammeyer347128]

Thank you for having an intelligent, nuanced approach to this. It’s not as simple as “pitch clock bad,” like plenty of boomers seem to think just because it’s the new thing. It’s like running backs only having so many carries, pitchers’ arms only have so many throws. The more stress you put on your arm, the fewer throws you have. We reached peak athletic performance and are now due to regress, because the peak isn’t sustainable for very long. Unless we churn out pitchers like the NFL does running backs (give them 3 or 4 years, then toss them aside like old garbage), we’re going to need a philosophy change.

[@PHX787]

I don’t want any future kids of mine suffering from this. This is gonna be a trend for new parents. And it’s gonna hurt all sports.

[@timebomb42]

I think a potential fix could be increase the amount of pitchers that a team can rotate through, and most importantly REDUCE the amount of total games played in a season that way it's not putting as much stress on these guys. If you really want, you can take an NFL style model and reduce the amount of games, and also make their a week or more of rest between games.

[@jagartharn6361]

wouldnt be opposed to it, but unfortunately unlikely. I always thought about shaving some games off.

[@stickit2theman1]

I have to admit, Tree, the overall quality of your baseball videos has improved immensely since I started following you around 2019. I came to you for football, but I find myself watching more of your MLB videos now because they're so well researched and edited. Please do more.

[@jeremystraughan3548]

Been waiting on your take on the topic. Love the channel and can’t wait for football season to hear you dunk on Kirk Cousins in Atlanta 🥹❤️

[@matthewculley5959]

The Knuckleball's time has come. Phil Niekro was elite throwing in the 70s and low 80s. We need to bring back junkball pitchers.

[@brycelandon3699]

My favorite Urinatingtree videos are the ones where he makes fun of teams that suck. But when he tackles serious topics like this, this is when he is honestly at his best, because he lays it out in depth with facts and statistics to back up his case. Major media outlets could really use a guy like this who does serious in-depth reporting on the problems in the world of sports.

[@bigjon9188]

My sophomore year of high school, I didn't make my high school baseball team because my fastball was only 69-70. I was 16. And this was in 2021, at your average high school

[@Maboola]

In T20 cricket, which is not baseball I understand, bowlers are limited to 4 over maximum. Sure this is done as a strategy thing, so you cant just use your best two bowlers the whole innings, but I dont see why it couldn't be implemented in baseball. It would be a RADICAL change to the game sure, but limiting what guys are chucking out to a few innings could have an effect. Not sure how you would fix the training problem but maybe by needing to have more pitchers on your squad to meet the requirements of a limited amount of pitches or innings per game could have an effect? Id throw a cent in that it could be interesting for strategy as well, having to rotate pitchers are the right moment etc etc

[@reedermh]

The key would be to find nine pitchers/fielders. In cricket they play multiple positions.

[@Mich-jk2ze]

In a race to be the best, there is no room for your body’s limitations. You push through them to be the best and suffer greatly for it.

[@neBen_]

This is honestly one the better videos put together on your behalf. Love to see it ❤️

[@andrewelliott1592]

Know someone who used to pitch high school ball and he had 2 Tommy Johns before he was 18. Let me repeat. 2 TOMMY JOHNS BEFORE 18. MLB has an arm problem that can't be swept under the rug anymore. Velocity is cool, but what happened to wanting control? Maddux was the epitome of control and Nolan Ryan is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time because after being all gas early on, he figured out how to add in control and became a menace Baseball needs to get back to preaching command/control and worrying about velocity less

[@justinmueller3141]

This is a problem we are seeing in every major sport right now. Muscles are getting more powerful than tendons, ligaments, or bones. Football, basketball, baseball, even in Hockey is seeing more injuries because we are pushing the human body to its limits.

[@shermanngjazz]

Wish we have more knuckleball pitchers in the league, at least they're less likely to get injured.

[@iamhungey12345]

Or pitchers who realize that they don't have to throw a ball as hard as possible at each pitch to succeed. The hype for triple digits made it pretty tempting however.

[@parkerrabideau8792]

When I become a dad (God willing), I will never force my kid to train or practice or play any sport. I’ll encourage them if they’re on the fence to try out but I will not be an overbearing baseball dad because my kids’ health is way more important than any game. I played college ball for 2 years (outfielder) and I was constantly injured because I put my body through a ridiculous amount to play the game I loved. It was the saddest day of my life when I gave it up for good but it was for the best. I tore a ligament, threw out my shoulder (several times), and had my nose shattered into a million pieces (think Taylor Ward situation). It broke my spirit and I don’t want to force my kid into that same thing. I did it for the love of the game and if my kid follows in my footsteps because he wants to, I’ll be behind him 100%. But if he doesn’t, I’ll be just as happy to see what else he does

[@parkerrabideau8792]

And no I’m certainly not saying I could have gone pro if I’d stayed healthy. I would definitely not have😂

[@brendan9868]

I can confirm this all stems from childhood. As a kid I had professional pitching instructions from a former big leaguer. I was throwing hundreds of pitches a week, hurling complete games from ages as young as 10-11, had a full selection of various fastballs and breaking balls at that age as well and was constantly striving for more break and more velocity. By 13 I already had UCL damage, so I was basically left with the options of get Tommy John or quit. I wish I had someone to blame, but it’s on me. I wanted to be the next great pitcher, I’d lie if my arm was sore, insist I stay in games and I pushed myself too hard feeling the need to be throwing sliders, curves, etc. during a time when kids where barely able to throw basic change ups. I was simply too competitive and couldn’t accept just being good, I had to be the best. By nature pitcher is the most competitive position in all of sports. There is no fix, it’s a system built on self inflicted wounds. The more that pitchers strive for velocity and break, the higher the standard for velocity and break will become and the more pitchers will get injured.

[@laurenmp7486]

It can be fixed, coaches stop treating velocity is really that important. Gregg Maddux could get pitchers striking out swinging with a fastball going 88. Just have to know how to make it happen. And he once joked how he could start on one day's rest, except it wasn't really a joke, if he was asked to he absolutely could do it.

[@brendan9868]

@@laurenmp7486 I can’t speak for everyone about coaches, but in my case they never actually tried to up my velocity, it was already high for my age. Even the former pro I mentioned focused more on my technique, control and composure. My coaches obviously liked that I threw hard because more often than not high speed rattles kids a bit at that age range, but they never influenced my drive to keep getting faster and they definitely didn’t know I was throwing as much as I was outside of games, practice and my lessons.

[@calebshreve16]

Part of this is not letting your kids truly "pitch" until they are about middle school age. I "pitched" my whole life, but I really didn't start actually pumping fastballs and curveballs and other breaking shit until 8th-grade/freshman year. I may not throw absolute heat now, but I can control my stuff and my arm is never sore, and is in good shape. Throwing too early and overthrowing and all the pressure of college recruiting ruins young arms. I'm at least lucky enough to be playing college baseball now with a chance to improve.

[@FreshPrincex4]

What university do you attend?

[@calebshreve16]

@@FreshPrincex4 I'm not there yet, I'll be a college freshman next year but I'm going to Hiram College. D3 in Ohio

[@matthicksxx]

Man, this is terrible. It reminds me of the NFL concussion issue (though not quite as bad long term effects). We really need to change how we utilize/train pitchers, less emphasis on velocity and more on longevity

[@CX462]

Hey Tree. Congrats on finally making it to 600K subscribers. It’s quite a journey making it to a million and I can’t wait to be there when it happens.

[@JonesDylan874]

Yo, congrats on 600,000, Tree! Keep on making those great videos, you lovable Yinzer.

[@l000ngboard]

Tree, there is a sobering documentary on HBO called "Trophy Kids". Sure, it shows the bias against the parents but good grief these kids need a break from training. Even the most seasoned gym trainers take a break to ensure that they are not injured.

[@Juju..]

Would shortening the baseball season significantly for a longer rest period in the offseason be too much of a dramatic change to fix this issue?

[@harrisonlee9585]

An unaddressed problem with all this is you have these injuries happening to pitchers in their 20s and 30s in a sport watched mainly by people in their late 50s who have no analytical skill beyond "WELL NOLAN RYAN NEVER GOT HURT DURRRRRRR" and that is going to create a lot of speedbumps.

[@patrickmorrow9960]

Great vid tree, very similar situation in cricket in Australia with fast bowlers with stress fractures

[@jagartharn6361]

I think one of the biggest reasons for the epidemic of pitcher injuries is an epidemic of bad pitching mechanics. Sure legit fireball guys like Tom Seaver and Nolan Ryan were rarer in years past, however they also got injured a lot less than todays pitchers. Highly likely because they had far better mechanics.

[@Demoralized88]

Speed + spin is literally the worst possible stress/force you can put on the arm/shoulder. Basically just velocity with good form typically cannot exceed the ultimate strength of the involved anatomy (and for Tendons, it is really almost entirely about ultimate strength and not so much weakening from repeated stress), but with smooth form that won't have movement. The issue is the pursuit of 'Spin', especially from different axes, requires an added whipping of the arm which greatly increases the forces to the UCL in particular (from additional and more violent deceleration if anyone doesn't intuit the physics of it) and certain pitches thrown this way also completely change how and where the stress is applied. You can see how violent and awkward this is with a lot of Pitchers, especially ALL the low-FIP, high-strikeout guys (which will all grenade their arm sooner rather than later), and it's not a complicated or esoteric concept so I don't understand why a lot of people can't see the problem. Ultimately the only fix IMO would be pitch speed/spin limits (not gonna happen, obviously) and the MLBPA won't ever cooperate w/ MLB to make any meaningful changes anyway.

[@JahNuhThunDeeTheOneAndOnly]

*Soon, pitchers will need cyborg arms to play the game.*

[@thomasnaeger8960]

One of your best videos

[@griffinfuller2567]

If you want a root cause of the issue, it’s the velocity movement. The specialized training year round to throw harder takes a toll. Basketball is going through the same thing where 21 year olds have the knees of 60 years old. The body isn’t designed to play 1 sport 12 months. But as Tree said, you take time off one sport means someone else is making up that “slack”