Bass Trombone Comparison~ Kanstul 1670 vs Bach 50 vs Conn 72

In this video I take a deep dive into 3 legendary single valve bass trombones, comparing a broad variety of sounds.
Check the timeline for more details. What sound do you like most and why?
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Timeline:
00:00 Intro
00:52 'Power' - Loud, low valve notes.
02:32 'Legato' - Bordogni Vocalise
04:47 'Articulations' - Grigoriev Etude.
06:45 'High register' - Holst 'I vow to thee my Country'
09:22 Final Verdict.
10:24 Testing Low B Natural tuning.

[@NickShollMusic]

Which single valve classic horns have I missed?

[@hymnbonist1335]

the Conn 62h. It has a much larger throat and red brass bell and sometimes tuning slide in hand slide, a much different instrument. Also Reynolds, Holton and Olds made bass trombones in those early years.

[@hymnbonist1335]

I believe Olds had a George Roberts model with a 9" bell.

[@NickShollMusic]

@@hymnbonist1335 The 62H is HIGH on my "to-find list - I do have a Kanstul 1662 which is a copy, but I'd love to try the original. Have you ever tried a Reynolds or Olds bass?

[@hymnbonist1335]

I have played both but they were poor examples, double rotors with bad ergonomics. I think the Conn to recommend for comparison would be a 60H. For 44 years I have played a 1959 Conn 72H with an added G attachment by Larry Minnic. I use a Bach 1G mouthpiece to compensate for the small throat bell. Good luck finding some of those horns to test.

[@hymnbonist1335]

So many trombones, so little time!

[@kevinman1661]

I wish my tenor’s valve can extend for the B natural~

[@edsherrod5216]

There are two classics to consider - Olds and Reynolds. I play a Bach 50B2 modified into inline valves but you have to work at it a lot to get the notes and it will take all the air you can give it and ask for more. I've always wondered what the Kanstul sounds like and it appears to be a very nice horn. I used to have a Conn 60H modified into dual inline valves by Larry Minnick but I sold it - wish I hadn't done that because it was a beautiful horn with a gorgeous sound.

[@NickShollMusic]

Thanks for your tips Ed: I don’t see any of those horns for sale in my part of the world but I’m sure I’ll find them one day. You mention Conn 60H- the 62H is the one mentioned most as the holy grail of bass Trombones! What’s the difference?

[@degelepassant1186]

@@NickShollMusic 60H is single rotor 62H. Only difference...

[@NickShollMusic]

@@degelepassant1186 Many thanks. I’ve never heard the 60H in use anywhere….you?

[@musicofnote1]

Very interesting. Both on my speakers and with good studio earphones, I hear no appreciable difference in sound. This goes along with my own experiments, that there is subjective "hearing" - ie how the instrument feels it plays while playing it, as opposed to how it sounds in front of the bell. With time, one does begin to project ones own expectations which then do differ. But doing direct comparisons is different as you don't have time to adequately adjust to the quirks of the horn. You just are in a generic "survival" modes. I -can- make a Bach 50OG sound like my Yamaha Xeno 822g, but it's much more work and I "feel" how i need to massage notes in and out of their stuffiness on the Bach, notes that simply "sound" on the Yammie. Yet, when I listen to the recordings, I hear no difference. Same thing when comparing mouthpieces. Even comparing such radical polar opposites like a Greg Black 1.5 or 1 7/16 to a Bach 1.25GM Megatone. The subjective "sound on my face" is all over the map. But what appears on the other side of the bell is ... the same.

[@NickShollMusic]

I. know what you mean, but just briefly listening again to the Bordogni etude, I immediately here that the Bach is more centred, the Kanstul more brilliant.

[@mjvielle]

Nice. Yes, the conn is light and has a longer slide I think. I had the kanstul 1670 *the most beautiful bronze bell* and lack of ‘stuff’ at the tuning radius (tuning in slide) but i had back issues so got a tenor for jazz. Loved the commercial more brash sound of the kanstul and usually dislike Bach’s house sound. Stuffy for me! I recently tried an old Besson 10-10 single valve in silver. .555 bore 9” bell. probably a combination of conn and kanstul to my feel of it but it was silver over 95% Copper Bell which is bound to be weird. Btw, really enjoy how you just freely play and don’t stop to make excuses about missed notes. This really helped me hear the sound and of course you’re testing playability. Excuses in videos just sound off-putting and get us out of the moment.

[@NickShollMusic]

Hey friend - thanks for your detailed feedback. Funny that Besson never really took off with bones, although I recently played a fairly new one which was a very good intermediate model. re. back: have you tried the ergobone? It's been my career-saver.... As to my mistakes - keeping it "real" is getting hard to find online right? ;-) Lets keep it human! Gonna stalk your channel now..... :-)

[@leif-aslaksrud]

Thanks for the video! I think all of them sounds good. All of them dfferent yes. I play a 70h so Im not objective in my opinion, but really think think its three good trombones you have there. The Bach is darker, the GR kanstul is brighter and the Conn is, well special. Compact but rich. Complex. Im subjective of course. I bet the Conn feels smaller and have more "jerks". Dont let that trick you. If you really get familiar with it, the sound is amazing despite the feel. Listen some of my videos and see if you like the sound. Its mostly done on the old Conn. I also use that 70h in orchestra and its amazing how it works! The feel behind a trombone doesnt always correspond how it really sounds in the back seat in a big concert hall. Again thanks for the video!

[@NickShollMusic]

Thanks ! Where do you play your Conn 70h?

[@feelgoodcharlie3822]

Do you think you could do a sort of sound comparison like this, but also including your Butler CF Bass?? O: I would really love to see that!

[@NickShollMusic]

Hey Charlie, did you already see the cf fibre comparisons on my Trombone Academy channel?

[@feelgoodcharlie3822]

@@NickShollMusic Yeah, I've watched them all too

[@NickShollMusic]

@@feelgoodcharlie3822 Cool. So do you mean you’d like to see a longer ‘one take’ comparison?

[@feelgoodcharlie3822]

@@NickShollMusic Yeah, a sort of free for all kind of take where a person might be able to hear a direct comparison between the sound differences with carbon fiber compared to different kinds of other horns.

[@bassboneful]

Beautiful sound.

[@NickShollMusic]

Very kind!

[@rtstt2886]

CONN..CONN..CONN.CONN..CONN.

[@Nintengirl15]

Heyy :) Nice job with the comparison I appreciate you seeing how far you could push them. I am a junior in college who now has a lot of free time on their hands so I’m hunting around to get my own horn. I’ve been playing tanner and was thinking of getting a bass trombone at first but now I think I’m going to get a Tanner and just work my way up to that since I haven’t played in a minute. Was wondering if you had any recommendations; I’m after a specific sound. I’m a weirdo and actually love trombones that can allow you to produce a really bright edgy sound lol I do sound design as well so I like to push things to its limits. i’ve been playing jazz but I like to make intense experimental music where factors like sound color matters. My high school had a wide variety of trombones so I wasn’t able to pick and choose and find out the brands. I went through at least four of them and The differences in sound were really obvious to me. I know One of them I played was a Bach and I remember really not liking it no matter what mouthpiece I used. Sounded really.... subdued? Underwater? Muffled? Not sure how to describe it properly but thinking about it now it does sound like something that’s more suited for and orchestra. The one I was playing in college is pretty similar. I got pretty lucky with the last one I got in high school. Best way I can describe it is Swiss army audio knife haha! It didn’t require me to blow my guts out if I wanted to create certain sounds. I even think they gave me the perfect mouthpiece because the high and pedal registers really popped out as well and I could easily jump between them without sacrificing sound quality. I started experimenting a lot on there and could get all different manner of sounds just by tweaking little things here and there. Couldn’t achieve anything close without the sound completely screwing up on any other configuration. I really wish I knew what that brand was. The sound was very (flexible) also; it didn’t give me the resistance when pitch bending that other ones did. If you know of anything that has those sort of characteristics I would really appreciate it. I know it’s different for everyone but at least in terms of generalities.

[@NickShollMusic]

hey there! You seem to want a free blowing, edgy sound. In general thats what I love too, but with some dark colours. As a bass trombone specialist I can only speak for them, but in general a good company has similar qualities across all trombones. I would recommend you try Kanstul and Shires in the top end. There's also older Yamaha models (pre Xeno) that are very free blowing and resonant. Hope that helps and good luck!

[@Nintengirl15]

@@NickShollMusic thanks for the quick reply! Do you know where I can hear examples of that particularly? It appears that most people are going for the completely opposite sound so they don’t play like that on these horns. You’ve really been the only review person I’ve watched who would test the range of sounds.

[@NickShollMusic]

@@Nintengirl15 You're welcome :-) Can you be very specific please? You want examples of an edgy, bright sound on tenor/bass ?

[@jedesklang]

I think holton single valve would be a nice competitor

[@NickShollMusic]

good that i have a TR 181 now! which model were you thinking of?

[@jedesklang]

@@NickShollMusic that one is fine

[@justinkearin8738]

Hi Nick, quick question: does the Kanstul slide fit in your conn bell? Just wondering if they’re compatible. Thanks :)

[@NickShollMusic]

I wish I still had the horns so that I could give you an answer....

[@deadstar4955]

I use a single rotor bach 50b, just wondering how reliable it is as a modern bass trombone considering it only has one rotor

[@NickShollMusic]

It really depends on what you intend to play. For orchestral music it will work 90% of the time. For big band it will not always be ideal due to more low valve note register.

[@mjvielle]

Conn 110h has a 10” bell and 1 valve

[@stansmith4054]

What is the difference between the Conn 72 and the Conn 88H? I always used my 88H in orchestra for bass and it would be just fine.

[@NickShollMusic]

hey Stan. The Conn 72 is a "light" bass trombone. The bell diameter is an inch bigger than the 88H, which is a large bore tenor.

[@stansmith4054]

@@NickShollMusic Does the 72 also have the ability to play in Eb like the 88H?

[@NickShollMusic]

@@stansmith4054 Do you mean by extending the F valve out? As you can see here, an "E pull" is at the limit of the "F valve" so Eb would require far more length. I've never heard of the 88H having an Eb valve....please expound!

[@stansmith4054]

@@NickShollMusic Yes, the early 88H's had a long F tube. About 2 inches from the end is a carved line that was made at the factory. This by pulling the F slide out to the line, when the trigger is depressed, the horn will be in Eb. I actually have an old book called, Let's Play the Bass Trombone and on the cover is a pic of the 88H! The second half of the book is exercises requiring the horn to be in Eb. Thus the 88H can play on F, Bb, and Eb. Quite interesting. I learned all of this while I was at Juilliard back in 1996. If you like I can email you some pics.

[@stansmith4054]

@@NickShollMusic However, only having one valve, in order to play on Eb, the F slide must be fully extended and the valve must be continuously depressed.

[@marekdischer7351]

Which mouthpiece do you use ?

[@NickShollMusic]

The smaller of the two LÄTZSCH bass trombone mpc's. Heavyweight and solid. The rim's are many to choose from, this was the Yamaha style rim.

[@YorkSears]

I prefer the Bach sound as well. I just bought a 72H yesterday (!) so we'll give it a go and see if an old tenor player can make the bass sing in the low register.

[@NickShollMusic]

Good luck! Otherwise perhaps an older Yamaha 300 or 600 series with smallest bell.

[@danhoenigman2757]

Great video! Thanks. As the player you seem to favor the Kanstul. But from the listeners perspective I think the Conn wins hands down! Just my opinion.

[@NickShollMusic]

Thanks Dan! Thats why these comparisons are so interesting - everyone has a different taste, and it will inevitably change with time. Very interesting that such an old Conn can compete at all....

[@normgardner4560]

Most people wear their bra UNDER the shirt!