Battery Drain Analysis on Land Rover Defender 90 - Low Battery Warning Problem

In this video we look at why we keep getting a low battery warning on our Land Rover Defender. We take out brand new Defender 90 and try and investigate the logic of the battery drain - why is it draining so much power ? where is the power going ?

[@neillthornton1149]

This is by far the biggest problem I have with my P400 D110. I already fitted it with a secondary battery system through a Redarc Manager 30, and all the accessories are off of that. But just opening the door to get a new beer out of the fridge boots the whole car up, every time. Then once you get the low battery warning, you lose your internal lights. It's almost to the point where I want to see if using Topix Cloud to put it into transport mode at camp will solve it. Otherwise I have to start the truck at least once a day and let it idle for 20 minutes, just to charge it for all this craziness. Land Rover desperately needs to add a "camp mode" somehow.

[@jongrall]

Nice test, Simon! It’s actually even worse than you indicated at the end. A 90Ah AGM battery is likely to have only about 45Ah (50%) usable capacity. So you can really only open and close the doors about a dozen times before you kill the battery, and even fewer to trigger the low battery warning. Land Rover should make their timer more conservative to preserve battery life, as well as applying different logic for the rear door, and perhaps a camping-mode option. Personally I plan to put a solar panel on the roof just to keep the main battery topped up.

[@Stubear22374]

Nearly every LR I’ve ever owned has had some sort of battery issues, nice to see they haven’t changed

[@L663]

It should be our Tesla that has a battery issue ... but no ... its the Defender !

[@bossman5163]

Simon, you don’t need to unlock the car to open the tailgate, if you have the key in your pocket/hand you can open the tailgate whilst the car is locked (wing mirrors stay in). Just a thought, it may make a difference when camping etc. Thanks for the video as always.

[@L663]

Good thought - but pretty sure the car will behave the same way - but thanks for the advice on the keyless entry - still getting used to that.

[@peterward9745]

Also when you shut the rear door after opening like this, it automatically relocks

[@AndyK.1]

Yeah. On a 2005 opening the boot only stops the infotainment powering up. I think you already tried this on your 110

[@neillthornton1149]

As a 110 owner who takes it out camping all the time, it doesn't even matter if the vehicle is locked or not. Opening the rear tailgate performs the full start up no matter how you do it.

[@markradford3883]

I have a discovery 5 and I get the same low battery light if I leave the boot open for an hour . Keep up the good work and thank you very much for the videos 😀

[@L663]

Sorry not many D5 videos ! but hope you are enjoying our videos !

[@eliotmansfield]

I made a test harness which has a small current shunt in parallel to a battery isolator. Close the isolator so you can start the car etc, open it to put the current shunt in series. I then measure the volt drop across the shunt on my Brymen DVM that has a computer connection for datalogging over many hours. Used this to track very intermittent battery drains on a bmw e65 and a l322. You can also buy bluetooth voltage monitors that have onboard datalogging. As you you have noticed when a car wakes up it draws loads of current with a volt drop as well. The voltage drop gets logged and you can use it to track down errant ‘wake ups’. My bmw turned out to be kept being woken up by a faulty touch sensitive door handle.

[@eliotmansfield]

bmw e65 falls asleep in stages, 20 mins, then fully at about 45mins - the telltale is when the glovebox light goes out. P38 telltale is when the park led goes out on autobox.

[@andrewjones-productions]

It was mentioned the last time you did this with your LR110 and that is the addition of a 'Camping Mode' button, switch whatever would be a good idea. Probably the best solution would be a combination push on the keyfob.

[@L663]

Yes indeed - did this test on the 90 just to check if it had improved ! also the 90 has no accessories fitted !

[@sally5371]

Hope Land Rover adds a camp mode. All that tech you’d think it would be easily possible.

[@stevenburnsvideo]

Could not agree more! And better yet... I feel like it could all be done in a software update.

[@L663]

Yes lets hope Land Rover listen - or at least change what powers up when rear door or passenger door is opened !

[@theasiamtmgroup]

Great video. I think your solution to open the door via the FOB is the answer as that doesn't wake up Pivi. Just, the people on the trip with you need to know to stay away from the other doors.

[@g0fvt]

One of my cars used to draw significant current for a few minutes, I think the engine ECU stayed awake for a while in case you wanted a restart. Half an amp will bring a fuly charged battery to its' knees in a few days but of course a hall effect clamp is easily affected by magnetism. Usually you can zero them. In a cold garage you might be able to see where the power is going with a thermal camera. Beware that the 90AH capacity of the battery is calculated on a very low rate discharge and does not mean you have enough left for an engine start. It might be a good idea to carry a tiny boost pack with you just in case.

[@eliotmansfield]

I avoid current clamps for sub 1a readings because they aren’t as accurate - i use a current shunt instead

[@jorgeguilherme]

Excellent analysis Simon. Very, very useful!!! P.S - Congratulations on buying the 90. You guys rock 😀

[@L663]

Hi Jorge - thanks for your always supportive comments.

[@terrytees]

@@L663 Hi Simon I have a question for you as well as a challenge, ASPW has yet again made another claim about the new defender today and of cause he has based this claim on an internet rumour without doing any testing for himself. He is claiming that if the Defender has a fully flat battery it requires a laptop with an internet connection in order to start it up? Is this true or is it wishful thinking on his part? Could this be tested with a fully flat battery and a jump pack?

[@terrytees]

@@L663 The second part of my question is I am wondering if the tracker system on the defender is causing a drain on the battery each time it's opened? I bit of a hard one to check unless someone has not included the tracker package, wonder if it can be disabled on the in the CCF files? My though is if someone wasn't to option in the tracker pack and use Air Tags instead would the defender have less of a drain on the current. It's not an easy on to check tough? cheers

[@simonbaker9983]

great work Simon though exposing their shortcomings. Love your channel!

[@L663]

I want the Defender to be the best Defender ever and sometime I will highlight issues... only with the aim of making the cars better.

[@simonbaker9983]

I want it to be great too! Just keep up your great work with the channel, hopefully MY2023 will have it fixed! 👍😊

[@Callum12able]

a simple solution around battery drain, whilst camping with back door open is to trigger the rear lock mechanism with a screwdriver so car thinks the door is closed and therefore will go to sleep

[@davidkeane-mirajkar7884]

Very informative video Simon - please keep them coming - thank you

[@L663]

Thanks, will do!

[@vincentdeknock4186]

Hi Simon, lots of discussions on the D300 Mild Hybrid system in the AU FB groups. I was looking for a post as one member explained the system and it different to other defenders. I did find this bit of information "Directly answering your question: you don't have a typical alternator on a D300. There's a 48V starter/generator attached to the serpentine belt which supplies the 8Ah 48V lithium pack for the MHEV system, and a 48-to-12V DCDC that is the ultimate source of power for the 12V circuits. The 12V alternators in non-MHEV Defenders are in the 180 to 230A range though, and the MHEV DCDC has to support the same kinds of 12V loads that those are designed for." My understanding is the 48V battery is used on the stop/start system for the car and I have found it to be seamless, responds very quickly. This is in response to some questions below on the stop/start and the effects on the main battery I think there is zero as it not being used in the mild hybrid. Could be wrong.

[@L663]

Interestng - I need to investigate more - there is what appears to be 12v battery lead in the engine bay.... let me check tomorrow - this would not be needed if there is no 12v alternator or starter motor ?

[@markabadee4375]

Based on the information above, you would think the 12volt battery should be a deep cycle rather than a start battery. A deep cycle would be far better at handling the drain of electrical items over a peroid of time.

[@OverlandingwithBruce]

One of the silly systems the New Defender had. I really don’t understand why they don’t just have the system start up with the drivers door only. What I do to over come this on my travels is leave a door slightly open/unlatched and the system eventually shuts down completely. Thanks for your efforts Simon

[@L663]

There is a company in Taiwan that have a bypass module to stop this happening.

[@OverlandingwithBruce]

@@L663 thank you. But I only trust you guys at Powerful 😀

[@user-jl1sq8fd6o]

@@L663 which one company in Taiwan. Would you let me know that? Because I am Taiwanese. Thanks.

[@L663]

Ooops - the company was Korean ! here is the video

[@L663]

@@user-jl1sq8fd6o Really really sorry - I have mixed up countries again. It is Korean company. Here is the video kzbin.info/www/bejne/fXvCpJuwl9-ifMU

[@stevenburnsvideo]

Super useful and interesting video. This has been one of the most challenging things about camping with the Defender when the camp is over a few days. (I have learned to bring a back up battery charger.) Two questions: 1) Do you think it is possible for Land Rover to adjust the seemingly excessively long startup and standby drain on the battery through a software adjustment? (Benefits outweigh the drawbacks to the customer experience, if you ask me!) 2) Now that you have a keyless entry car, I'd be curious to see similar tests with the key in the faraday case. A year or two ago, best practice when camping with the Defender was to: leave the doors open, turn off overhead lights as much as you could to not trigger the draw on the power and keep your key in a faraday case to not trigger the drain. So my question is more about does the proximity of the key have anything to do with the amount of drain on the battery at all? Is there any connection or is this all just a bit of folklore? (Just curious...)

[@L663]

OK I will try this - I still need to work out how to turn off the keyless entry - is it the same as in the Sport L494 I wonder ? There is a guy in Taiwan that has disabled the car waking up - I need to find the video again. In the CCF i have found this setting I need to play with www.dropbox.com/s/sfcoptm4cszj5bh/quiecent%20relay.png?dl=0

[@johnreed2744]

If the key is kept in the vicinity of the vehicle this will have an impact on the vehicle going to sleep the module will send a signal to look for the key if it finds it it will keep the vehicle awake longer

[@stevenburnsvideo]

@@L663 Ahhhh, that setting in the CCF looks interesting. Also curious about the video of someone who's disabled their car's wake up! The curiosities continue!

[@stevenburnsvideo]

@@johnreed2744 Thanks for confirming. (I honestly didn't know if the faraday case had any effect on the timing of the 'awake' state. So... it seems pretty likely there is a setting in the CCF that calculates for this scenario as well.

[@L663]

@@stevenburnsvideo here is the video kzbin.info/www/bejne/fXvCpJuwl9-ifMU

[@dord1954]

That was very interesting, I have a Mercedes’ cls and it doesn’t get used daily by any means but during winter the battery suffers and messages that convenience settings are disabled, bit of a design fail I think

[@gordonwedman3179]

I agree that 0.5 amps is not insignificant. Maybe the current drain has something to do with wifi connectivity. For comparison a P38 draws about 0.03 amps when asleep.

[@L663]

The 0.5A reading will not be accurate with a clamp meter... my main worry is the 11A for 13 minutes.

[@gordonwedman3179]

@@L663 Depends on the clamp meter you use. I was recently looking at one that has a 4 amp range. That should be pretty accurate at 0.5 amps. I have a similar one and have compared it to an inline meter. It was very close.

[@garryanderson2970]

Since you produced this video have you come up with any mods to assist with power consumption when camping ,I am finding it very frustrating cheers

[@oskarhoeler3549]

Hi Simon, Going back to this issue, on a D5 we’re found that if you leave the drivers door open it looks like after the first sleep mode is activated then it seems that if you open any other door then the car stays in sleep mode, wondering if you added a “camping mode switch” on the drivers door to trick the system to think the drivers door is open then maybe the battery might not get flattened while camping. We’re not sure how the drivers door switch works. Maybe you could investigate and come up with a simple toggle switch to trick the car. Oskar

[@HQBProductions]

Simon…I’m no electronics expert but from experience, the Low Battery warning occurs on my car if I leave it untouched for a week…longest was 14 days and then even the JLR Remote App warned me. Also, it gets much quicker doing this as the battery ages and in fact I can tell the battery condition by how many times I can operate the tailgate open and close. After a long run then I can do around 10 cycles but if all the journeys are short then whilst the tailgate opens, it will not close and send a chirp warning…then if I open a rear door, that resets things and the tailgate will then close. My guess with your car is that it has yet to have a long run and may have been standing around for weeks before delivery so all it needs is a 50 mile drive and the Low Battery should stop appearing. Lastly…battery life…mine failed very quickly at just under three years…it was replaced under warranty and I understand that is about all the life you get from them because of the drain and recharging cycles being so frequent. Useful video though…I hate the radio turns off after about 8 minutes…I guess that drain is really heavy! 🤔🙂🫢😀😀😀😀Richard.

[@StephenFogarty2023]

If u drive ur Defender with Stop / Start functioning, this also has a huge effect on battery life. ( of all vehicles ) An AGM battery is, on average, required to start the car multiple times every drive. Average of 17,500 start ups per year, causes the battery to generally last 3 years, if u r lucky. If u turn Stop / Start off, the battery will then only be required to start the car about 750 times per year. Since taking delivery of my 2017 Disco Sport, I always turn Stop / Start off. After 5.5 years, and 110,000 kms, I am still on the original battery.

[@L663]

Interesting points here with the start stop etc

[@StephenFogarty2023]

@@L663I’m sure many people will agree with my experience. Many factors can / will determine the life of a car battery… Basic cars without heaps of gizmos and stop / start, will have a Lead Acid battery. EG a 4 year old Toyota Corolla. In a car like this, the battery will generally last at least 5 years, in a warmer climate, unless if you only do infrequent short drives in the car.

[@bozackut]

I know it would be a bit annoying to do so, but do you think you could splice in a switch on the negative terminal and basically turn the car off when you get set up at camp? Or would this create additional issues? Thank you for these helpful videos!

[@L663]

We are looking at other options - right now we have the rear fusebox in pieces !

[@L663]

There is a guy in Korea who has made a module to stop the car from recognising the doors are open - here is his video kzbin.info/www/bejne/fXvCpJuwl9-ifMU

[@bodgerbill3]

Hi Simon, it would be really interesting to see a comparison with your Tesla. Rubbish software like this was one of the main reasons why I sold my 90 and ordered a Tesla (which comes in three weeks).

[@fenflyer]

Land rover build this battery drain feature into all there vehicles..... It keeps the main Steelers ( aka main dealers ) busy 🤦‍♂️

[@L663]

We actually tried to start if after this video and we got into a whole world of pain... wait for that video !

[@joncollett4631]

Some off you will already know this, you can only use 50% of the 90Ah as draining a lead acid battery below 50% will begin to damage battery and it will premature the battery life. Therefore you will only be able to use 45Ah, then the battery will begin to damage, so not recommended.

[@alhit007]

Congratulations on the new Defender,, love the colour, quick question? Is that Triggers brush I see ?. I recognise the handle 😅

[@Pandora882]

I. recognised the second handle

[@___Shah___]

Thank you Simon, great stuff

[@L663]

Very welcome

[@paulrichardson3222]

Modern cars, (well my Volvo anyway) have light sensors so interior lights only come on when needed and not in daylight, your Land Rover will be the same. Same as the auto headlights.

[@L663]

The Defender does have a light sensor - i have decoded this on the CANbus But pretty sure the lights come on even when it is bright !

[@arkadaslarkaisermetin2]

TCU is removing fuse and doing current leakage test.greetings from Turkey

[@L663]

Greeting - interesting you think the TCU could be the problem

[@WizzardPrang]

Wondering why you've got the low battery warning so soon into ownership, was this because you've been doing a lot of door openings etc for your videos without much regular driving, or maybe the battery wasn't fully charged when you took delivery?

[@L663]

Yes its because we open the doors and dont drive it a lot... but it is not efficient use of power... and power is energy..... car makers need to get better at saving power.

[@garryanderson2970]

Hi Simon I have found that being able to sit in the car overlooking a river or marina and listen to the radio it is not long before low battery sign comes up asking to start engine it is most frustrating cheers

[@L663]

Yes even sat on the M25 during a traffic jam you are forced to sit in silence !

[@johnmargerison1066]

All good information

[@hedydd2]

It may well take 34 by 13 minute cycles to consume the total amps of the battery but at what point would the voltage drop such that the car would fail to start? I presume that the ECU’s require a minimum of something like 11 volts to work and when they don’t, no start?

[@L663]

Yes good point - I think you are down to about 15 door cycles and then you are in trouble !

[@hedydd2]

@@L663 That’s with a new and fully charged battery in the first place, not one like yours that was already near to having the low battery warning on.

[@tonypacke6954]

Some nice testing Simon. With that sort of draw, 14 days in an airport car park will require roadside assistance to get you started again. You should be getting not much more than 0.25 mah draw on a "normal" car. So much for progress then!

[@L663]

The lower value of 0.7A may not be accurate with a clamp meter - the main issue is the 11Amps when you open the door.

[@atoieno]

After 96 hours of inactivity, the vehicle goes into what JLR calls "sleep mode" to preserve the vehicle's battery for start-up. According to the documentation the onboard telematics system is put to sleep.

[@ecossearthur]

Boom Boom!! 💥

[@markwall6651]

Hi Simon, JLR diesels have a different charging or power management than the Petrol engines. Low battery is less of an issue on Petrol versions. So, maybe engine management is a big drawer ir power? Either way if you want to use the car less then petrol is better than diesel as far as battery charging. Would be good to compare the two? But deffo petrol is better for the battery

[@L663]

My petrol has the same issue - but it has lots of accesssories - so I wanted to test the new 90 Diesel - it seems the same.

[@markwall6651]

@@L663 there is a difference in the distribution of charging the battery between the Petrol and Diesel, you can recharge the battery faster on the petrol over the same range/time if driving than the Diesel- not sure what or why but there’s a different set up between the two. Therefore the low battery warning is less prevalent on the Petrol.🤷‍♂️

[@L663]

@@markwall6651 The petrol engine is at higher revs so this may help - but Land Rover could change the pulley on the alternator to resolve this...

[@joworx]

This is a D300 right? It should have the mild hybrid tech… you have another battery to test in this setup Simon :) Although, that battery probably isn’t used to ‘help’ the start battery.. I had the low battery warning before as well

[@L663]

Yes this is the D300 Hybrid - not used the Hybrid system yet - need to read up more about it.

[@mattmurray3709]

Maximum quiescent drain should be around 30 milliamps (0.03 amps) so you’re still over 10 times that. Try the tests again with the smart key at least 5 meters away from the vehicle

[@L663]

OK will do - but the results are pretty much the same on The Stig - this does not have keyless entry.

[@burgerbirger2221]

Maybe LR should do like Tesla, have a camp-mode of some sorts and two batteries with a BEP relay in between.

[@mikeclark4416]

Whats the 110 like ? compared with the 90 in battery loss , My Car -Volvo V70 even that registers a battery loss but alarm system must pull power from the battery ? .My relation also has a Volvo V70 - also the same . Just wondering if all the computers are zapping power too ? - Ah you just mentioned too !

[@jimmyquinn9639]

Lovely car 🚘🚙👍👍👍⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

[@danielbarkes5068]

My 110 is coming up on 2 years old. Getting the low battery light. From what I’ve been told, it is because I take too many short trips (15 min or less). Really a pain. Anyone else had this issue?

[@L663]

pretty sure there are a few out there...

[@888johnmac]

lol , i'm surprised there isn't an APU or small petrol generator on-board to keep the battery topped up .. remember the good old days when if you left the ignition on too long you burned out the coil

[@L663]

Yes boiled.a couple of coils in my time !

[@agt155]

Wonder if some of the current is leaking to the battery.

[@Johnny-ts7vb]

What happens if you use the button on the key fob to just open the tailgate?

[@L663]

Nothing - this button does not work on the Defender !

[@Johnny-ts7vb]

@@L663 yes it does Simon! With this button you can unlock the tailgate without unlocking the car! Try it, lock the car, press the button on the key fob and you can open the tailgate without unlocking other doors. By closing the tailgate the car will lock again.

[@Johnny-ts7vb]

Furthermore… and even more important: it seems like the Pivi Pro System does not start if you press the button for the tailgate on the key fob and open the tailgate….

[@L663]

@@Johnny-ts7vb This must be new - watch this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/bIjWZpJjn8qsntU

[@Johnny-ts7vb]

@@L663 already did… and still, it already worked back then :-) try it (you need to press the button on the tailgate handle - after pressing the button on the key fob - and just the tailgate opens)

[@msaad089]

I've just seen a video the other day about Ford f150 battery monitoring system and how it would turn off the car infotainment when it start showing low battery warning, but it would continue to draw 18A so I don't know what's the deal with that.

[@L663]

Car makers need to catch up with Tesla - every amp is precious !

[@kingquadking6075]

Still a new model going to be a few problems just what you would expect in a 60k vehicle.

[@jaccca777]

I have a 2001 Defender 90, quiescent current consumption 60mAmps. . Is it normal? The most car is under 10mA.

[@johnclarke3527]

Really great video. I've got a P400e 110 (Plug-in hybrid) and although I havnt noticed the low battery problem it does take quite a while with the engine running before the EV (all-electric mode) becomes available. (I had hoped to be able to use the All Electric mode for all short journeys so am finding this a bit annoying :)). Do people think this might be because of the same issue i.e engine has to come on to charge main battery before you can use the bank of Lithium batteries in the boot? It would have been better if the main battery charged at the same time as the Lithium. Anyone else seen this problem? Wonder if I could find another way to keep the main battery charged. Someone further down talked about using solar and wonder if this would be possible without bu!!$ring up the main battery system.

[@L663]

I am yet to use our hybrid system ! need to get to grips with this..

[@mvirdi2333]

🙏🙏🇬🇧

[@djsconsulting]

Hi Simon, if you’re interested I use web accessible current monitoring devices which you could permanently fix on the battery and view/download data over a secure web interface. Will be a lot more accurate than hand writing and you will collect data 24/7. Email me if you want details. Dave

[@L663]

Hi David - yes i will drop you a main - would be good to see the power drawer curve.

[@mcjjordan]

Lock the car & walk away for an hour then see if it settles

[@user-ms1vy1hc4w]

Доброго здоров'я привіт з Одеси Україна.

[@L663]

I missed you - was starting to get worried !

[@simonbaker9983]

Just another reason sadly I would never buy anything from the JLR family. Maybe one day they will produce a car that comes close to justifying their eye watering prices. Shamefully shoddy!

[@mcjjordan]

Thats silly- like leaving your headlamps on all the time

[@equaliser2265]

I would disconnect all that shitty info system .

[@L663]

I think you are right - its the greedy info system

[@AndyK.1]

Thank goodness LR don’t make phones!