Bayonetta 3 is Overrated and Watered Down. Nintendo Switch Review

Bayonetta 3 is Overrated and Watered Down. Nintendo Switch Review. After 8 years since Bayonetta 2, Platinum Games have finally managed to release the long anticipated Bayonetta 3. But has such a large passage of time degraded the game's combat and design? (The answer is yes). Unlike every other review of this game you will see on the internet, I am actually going to evaluate Bayonetta 3 on the basis of its combat and level design, rather than talking endlessly about the character models, story, and how awesome the summoning system is. Another aspect that sets this review apart is that, historically, the Bayonetta series has been lavished with unconditional positive reguard by critics and fans for decades, for better and for worse. And while I also appreciate the series (especially Bayonetta 1), I do think it has its share of flaws that have not only been ignored, but encouraged and intensified over the years. The result is what we have today, Bayonetta 3. A third entrance into the series that minimizes combat, streamlines combos and playstyle, and tones down whatever edge the series started with. In the end what we are left with is a decent practically action RPG feeling game (like Astral Chain or Nier Automata) that is going to win big with game journalists and casual Nintendo fans, but is absolutely going to leave behind a feeling of emptiness and bordom for the more hardcore character action fans (such as myself). Right now the game is available on Nintendo Switch, PS3, Xbox 360, Nintendo Wii U, and Sega Dreamcast. Sadly no PC port has been announced and probably is not likely due to the series now being under Nintendo's thumb in more ways than one.
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[@BknMoonStudios]

I think there's a lot of value in your reviews and opinions, Mark. Some people may call you contrarian and "old fashioned", but you are one of the few reviewers online who will always focus on gameplay over storytelling and playthrough length, which is becoming increasingly rare. I may not always agree with your opinions (specially on narrative games like RPGs and Visual Novels), but I feel I can always trust you when it comes to unbiased descriptions of gameplay. Be proud of the niche you've carved. You are doing something truly different.

[@abbeyfre]

I'm a huge Bayonetta fan but this game, god... it's so boring and soulless. I'm glad to see people like you actually adressing its flaws 'cause the game has A LOT of them and the casual players just seem to ignore them all :/ This franchise peaked with Bayonetta 2, I don't even know what this is, it doesn't even seem to be related to past events and lacks objective...

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Exactly cheria and this is a common trend in the comments ha. The long time players and fans are saying ok this game has issues and the casuals are yelling at me and saying I need to grow up ha

[@Mrclavet]

Same for me. I’m a huuuge bayo fan but can’t stand this game. I just stopped and put my trinity edition on sale. For me Bayonetta ended at the second game.

[@TheOnlyMeChanneI]

@@Mrclavet whoa don’t get too comfortable …bayonetta 2 is shit as well

[@hectord3013]

Ugh the hate here is absurd

[@sandersGG]

What do you mean they added more mechanics and the Spectacle of the battles cutscene wise and gameplay wise have gotten even Grander which is the essence of bayonetta my guy did you even play the game Edit: if you payed attention the first game established multiple different timelines do exist so you saying the game doesn’t relate is not true

[@maxg2335]

I don't know if this is just me but the platforming sections are driving me crazy. Specifically the ones where you have to collect 5 items in a short span of time. Bayo is so floaty and she always jumps way further than I expect. I'm spending more time on platforming than the rest of the game. That, and Viola's parry seems to have the most awkward timing. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't and I don't think I did anything differently.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yeah I agree for sure max. If they really insist that players must platform, at least make the platforming sections good ha.

[@thelastgogeta]

Bayo 3 platforming has weird air control despite four jumps (2 contextual ones - wall and ledge), stops you for like 10 seconds to announce 5 collectibles and almost no way to redirect yourself in a comfortable way without lock on to an enemy. I'm not looking forward to the Umbran Tears in this game. It was bad enough that I initially didn't think I could get them till mid game with Viola and environments are big enough that it is easy to miss them rather than them being in a corner. I think the Parry/Witch Time will need people to dig up whats going on but maybe it is related to the game's strange frame time even if I don't think console Bayo has ran at 60 flat besides modern (non-Ninty) hardware.

[@hectord3013]

2 "bad" aspects of the game, that makes it bad?

[@umbranelegance9034]

@@hectord3013 well I think it comes to down to more than just two aspects. For one, a big singular issue that effects everything else pretty much is the momentum whenever you're in the air. As soon as you jump, your momentum just straight up dies. They force the player to rely on Masquerade or technical inputs mostly to platform by holding the jump button or using traversal methods integrated into forms. This is also kind of clunkily implemented with Viola to an extent bc she has momentum (sort of) but it's hard to gauge how far she will go as it depends on how long you hold the button and her parry button is also used to dash which makes her less than intuitive. But the fundamental building blocks of an action hack n slash, arcade fighter, or even platformer is MOMENTUM. SO it's really a BIGGER issue and there's a whole bunch of smaller issues that culminate with that and its why alot of people are having issues with it. It's not a simple issue bogged down by two 'bad aspects'. It's a matter of design quality and these games have been saturating themselves to be casual af ever since the 2nd game. It just sucks that we can't even get a decent jump in a game all about fighting filled with platforming puzzles. Game seems more like a mixed bag the more you dissect the inner workings of its design flaws. I mean this all just about momentum. There's also the camera and that's a whole other issue that ALSO effects everything. I mean I really wish they would think before implementing new playstyles into the sequels. If they had just focused on combat alone instead of all these unnecessary riding sections then it might have actually felt even better to play and Demon Slave wouldn't have to be shoved into every big area that wasn't a tight nit space in a building. Plus Viola is just not a great character to play as when fighting some of these giant enemies. It's just not fun to Pure Plat with her in the slightest. Really shows the lack of care put into her and her homogenized toolkit. She's seems like she's only in the game to give Luka relevance and I hate a playable, pointless plot device more than a crappy bulky clunky riding section 🙄

[@hectord3013]

@@umbranelegance9034 cope harder God dmit you're the bigger hater and liyer that a even seen before

[@cereal2373]

I thought I was going crazy when looking for genuine Bayonetta 3 reviews recently, lol. All points mentioned in this vid I agree with so much btw. It really does feel like Bayonetta 3 was reformed to now specifically cater to casuals, game journalists and the mainstream gaming audience to rack up sales as much as possible. It lost so much of its flair due to the absence of its original core combat gameplay, which is so sad considering just how unique and fun the initial game was.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yeah no kidding, it's absurd how gushing all the reviews for this game were. They don't even make sense if you think about the scores. Would anyone in their right mind say this game is as good as Elden Ring? And yet they both are 10/10? how does that even make sense ha. Do great games like Elden Ring now need to be 11/10 lol

[@amuroray9115]

@@TheElectricUnderground maybe it’s because reviews aren’t the same? Lol. Many think Elden Ring sucks. That’s their opinion. And?

[@Supercomet13A]

My biggest issue with all the commentary around bayo 3 is that people missed that a LOT of the game design that people are criticising was initially added in bayo 2. Bayo 2 was the game that made witch time a goal mechanic, and not a means to learn the dodge offset mechanic as it was in 1. The causal "press button to win" was first done in 2. The ability to use items and have it not effect rating was first done in 2. Bayo 2 is a neutered bayonetta. Bayo 3 is an astral chain spinoff.

[@konstantdrachenfels5446]

I think the bigger problem is that literally anyone can be a video game "journalist" nowadays.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

No kidding. Polygon's review doesn't even bother to talk about the gameplay at all ha. They re like blogs more than critics

[@miltiadiskoutsokeras9189]

@@TheElectricUnderground correct: they are promoters and advertisers like they always gave been. In 90s they just had the freedom to slack inferior companies on the grounds of less promotion money. Rise of the Robots was scored 92% in some magazines. You want the truth about a game? Ask someone who loves games but pays for them.

[@dez87]

@@miltiadiskoutsokeras9189 as someone that payed this game as my favorite combat system ever

[@miltiadiskoutsokeras9189]

@@dez87 Good to know, but nobody knows you. You are a random guy on the net with a nickname. So I may respect your opinion, I do not have any clue if it holds any truth. I will probably get it to decide on my own. Enjoyed the previous 2.

[@dez87]

@@miltiadiskoutsokeras9189 you just said "someone who loves the games and pays for them" lol

[@slimynaut]

You make the best reviews, almost nobody else even talks about gameplay in any meaningful way in games. Isnt that crazy.

[@dreamxhollow]

I think the overall vision of the game was misguided, a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes a Bayonetta game great. The game became too ambitious. They tried to throw the kitchen sink at the player like DMC5 did but unlike DMC5, it's not engaging or even interesting. I agree with you: they streamlined it. Probably due to Nintendo. It feels like there was a lot of cut content too. If the future of the series is what they did here, I'll be very disappointed.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Absolutely dreamhollow!

[@awwnuts07]

Having hit-stun means the player actually has to understand concepts beyond attack/dodge and that kind of complexity doesn't seem to go over well with general audiences. Hyper armor is easier for people to wrap their minds around so developers default to it.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

No kidding my friend, hyper armor is becoming an absolute plague. I need to make a video about it

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

@@TheElectricUnderground do it please!!

[@nomight273]

bayo 3 does have hit stun with demon slaves and you can break there armor so that you can juggle even with bayo

[@awwnuts07]

@@TheElectricUnderground At least the combo potential is still as high as ever. If you're curious, there's been a few people like BeeG (Combo MAD creator) who've already put out a couple videos that look pretty hype.

[@LondonLock]

I think Bayo went hard on the hyper armor due to increasing focus on witch time. The more possible enemy's to attack at once due to a lack of stun the more changes for perfect dodges

[@alexpark472]

Bayonetta has been my favourite game since 2010 and I pretty much agree. The whole story mode feels like a chore to get to end game and then there is no other modes or anything else to do and I really don't feel like playing the story again. The combat feels way to uncomfortable and like you are constantly chasing the enemies (even worse than Bayo 2) and unless you use your summons frequently you get a huge time penalty. Even an online co-op would have been appreciated (I don't see why games in 2022 can't even have a basic online mode) but I don't know if they are planning to add anything later but for now I just don't care for it anymore and I have played Bayonetta 1 and 2 more than all my other games combined.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Exactly Alex the entire game from the hyper armor to the enemies running away to the wierd launch angles all heavily push the player to use the summon. Summon is the name of the game and that mechanic ends up undercutting the core gameplay a lot. I think right now the hype train is rolling but in a month or so the seams are going to show more and it will be like mgs4 all over again. An ok entry into the series for the players but is like 10/10 perfect from the critics.

[@Tien1million]

Bayonetta was not a casual game, it didn't sell well, and it was a niche game. I think they want to get a mass appeal for the franchise so they watered everything down in 3, which was what I was afraid of. You mentioned Godhand and Ninja Gaiden, damn I miss those games. When can we get more of those?!

[@simlife445]

idk the same why money works EVER with your own comment not a casual game the wiiu and switch are ugly af even if it was 4k with this low textures this is a joke the 2013 ps4 is 40-50% more powerful then the newest 2023 switch for same cost lit x box with THE SAME COST is about 12 times more powerful 60 fps witcher 3 vs 25 average and 50% less ppi.. tell me your poor and stupid without telling me your poor and stupid (is that a thing still? a game not for the masses is a game not using setting or other stuff to make money probaly why p games was sold...

[@ozy667]

its not just bayonetta that has the spectacle, qte and mini game problems, its every platinum game. its astral chain, its wonder101, even nier automata, they NEVER focus on the one thing they do right.

[@fixedcamera1000]

FOR REAL

[@B.Love88]

Thank you! This is a key symptom of platinum games! I have recently been playing through their games and noticed this!

[@kirkcavenaugh758]

Astral chain was such an odd and messy game with potential to be one of the best of all time.

[@ROT695]

I’m in the middle of playing it now. In fact I’ve played all the games in like nearly two weeks. My only issue coming into the third game is that battles don’t seem as exciting as they did in the previous games. The thing I loved about the other two is how crazy the levels could get and how it was just Bayonetta going up against these crazy bosses. The third game though makes it so she relies too much on her demons which doesn’t give me the same excited feeling and makes her seem a little weaker. Plus I feel the way the torture attacks was done before was way more exciting than now. Before you’d have to build up your magic by doing combos and dodging in time but now to get one you just have to use your demon to trigger one which isn’t as rewarding. It also doesn’t help that the animations for them are stripped down to the bare minimum now

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah I think a lot of people are going to end up feeling this way Rezigo

[@xenokos1602]

You can use demons and bayonetta at the same time. That's how your supposed to use them

[@minecraftotalwar]

it's not, you just gotta learn how to use the wink slave mechanic, which is basically a powered up wicked weave, then you will be able to play it mostly like the first bayo

[@samueldeandrade8535]

​@@xenokos1602 "You can use demons and bayonetta at the same time" No one cares. Playing only as Bayonetta should be enough. Adding stupid demons was unnecessary.

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

Nice review video on this game. I just learned on how I can do game reviews one day. And I also felt abit discouraged on doing game reviews after I read comments. Talking about the intricacies and the little fun quirks of the game and people would just ask "what about the story??". I am glad that you are willing to do an indepth review that many people may not even like.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh doing game reviews you must prepare yourself for some comment sections brawls ha. Hence why every reviewer just says what everyone else says. If you deviate even slightly your in for some fun times ha. It s worth it though if you care about honest game critique

[@vee1766]

Lol the hypocrisy, you are litteraly doing the same thing, people talk about everything that's in a game and all you care about is just "what about the fighting??". Y'all need to grow up, i understand when you are 15 thinking that videogames are just about "killing enemies" but at somepoint you have to realize it's more than that.

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

@@vee1766 k

[@BoozeAholic]

@@vee1766 The fighting are the actual interactive parts of the game though which is what the core rule set is build around. Story & cinematics are a different medium more similar to movies rather than game. I love Tactics Ogre Reborn which has plenty of story but that entire game is constructed around governing rulesets to where the battling & even the choices you make feel like a game that you interact with.

[@vee1766]

@@BoozeAholic Videogames are also a visual and narrative art, hence the VIDEO. They have visual artists, designers and writers in the devellopment. And plenty of games have interactive parts outside of the fighting.

[@oneupdawg]

Platinum Games has had varying degrees of success over these past years. I wouldnt be surprised if this one misses the mark a bit, Bayonetta 1 and 2 were pretty good. My faves from them is still Vanquish and Wonderful 101.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yeah platinum seemed to have fallen down the action rpg wormhole and now they can't get out ha.

[@gregh.3361]

I will admit, once I’ve memorized the ship formations, Sol Cresta at higher difficulties is pretty satisfying. I still think the visuals are flawed, but I’m having a lot more fun with it the more familiar I am. Still think levels should be shorter and the price should drop, lol.

[@dez87]

2 is the worst gameplay wise and 3 is the best

[@johnnyscifi]

Ahem... NieR: Automata

[@kagemara277]

I also love Vanquish and cant believe they havent ported it to Switch yet!

[@TonyTonyRedgrave]

Hey Mark, have you seen the Ninja Gaiden SIgma 2 Black mod? I'm a huge Sigma 2 hater but the mod looks pretty sick, I think I'm finally ready to recommend my non xbox having friends to get into the series.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I have! I tried it out but sadly my wimpy computer doesn't seem to run it well :-(

[@sidar87]

Replaying Bayonetta 1 again. The feel is so much more on point. Gib me more Angels and Demons. I don't know what they were thinking with microsoft sigurd being more powerful than any previous bosses. Also the dumb collect the broken pieces was so out of place.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Absolutely disar! Bayo one feels so on point in comparison to 3

[@dez87]

Cope

[@vagabond8385]

I have been playing Bayo 1 for almost ten years. Truly an amazing game. So focused so unique, so stylish and beautifully directed. Bayo 2 had improved combat and ok story. Lacked a bit of character though. Bayo 3 is just, I don't know how to describe it. It feels like fan fiction. It's too much of everything at once.

[@magicjohnson3121]

Have you played Donkey Kong Jungle Beat? Really unique platformer with combos and a scoring system essential to the game.

[@TheBlackSamurai2708]

Amazing game

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I haven't but those drums look really fun ha

[@dunkelwelpling]

Interesting Review. I don't agree with the first critique point, since i'm a guy who likes variety and non-stop fighting or shooting can get a bit monotone for my taste, but literally every other point you made, i could relate with and gave good insight into the downfall of the series/Nintendo.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I can see what you mean, that is like the divide between the NG1 and NG2 fans ha. NG2 fans (I am firmly in that camp) argue that the more focused level design is an improvement whereas the NG1 fans like the variety of the zelda sort of missions and so forth. However, in the case of NG1 vs Bayo 3 design (both have variety), NG1 has it all within the game system if you know what I mean. You still have to use the core mechanics and so forth. In Bayo 3 though, it just pulls you into these really lame and showy mini games that have absolutely nothing with the core mechanics ha.

[@fakydfakefake9515]

Finally a review that goes a bit more in depth than just "the combat is so awesome and depp and complex and....". Keep up the good work! Btw. have you ever looked at Assault Spy? A nice indie character action game, very streamlined and heavy combat focussed ;)

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Exactly faky. All the commentary for the games combat and level design is so broad and general it could be copy and pasted into another games review completely. Also never heard of the game you mention but it sounds right up my alley! Thanks for the recommendation :-)

[@dez87]

The combat is very deep

[@NuiYabuko]

@@TheElectricUnderground That might also be because a lot of things might be embargoed, but let's make a conspiracy theory out of it.

[@samueldeandrade8535]

​@@dez87 not at all.

[@dez87]

@@samueldeandrade8535 cry

[@RuV9999]

btw. i remember back then i want to try Ninja Gaiden game because i like how Ryu appearance in modern costume that looks cool. and wanting to hop into that game. for pc...is there a ninja Gaiden that good to play? at least for bayonetta player?

[@TheElectricUnderground]

A great starting place is Ninja Gaiden 2 Sigma on PC. I do think the Xbox 1 x version of NG2 is better, but Sigma is less wild and specifically made to be more welcoming for new players, so I def think that's the best starting place.

[@platinumconquest2365]

NG is pretty different to Bayonetta so I can't necessarily give you a recommendation based off of any sort of simularity. That being said, I'd say Start with NG Sigma 1 if you're on PC. Holds up really well, and is a lot of people's favourite.

[@RuV9999]

@@platinumconquest2365 oh boy the Master collection is expensive....

[@RuV9999]

@@TheElectricUnderground the game is expensive. im probably gonna wait until on sale.

[@100hundert]

The most fun I have in character action games are definitely the angel slayer / bloody palace modes - just nonstop action without any stupid stop and go, genre shifts, cinematic sections or QTEs. Bayo 1 had some great sections as well, for instance that tower part where there's a stretch of room after room of enemy encounters. I still really need to get deeper in NGII, but the large focus on constant encounters really stood out positively to me. I still remember being super confused when first playing DMC3 and instead of constantly fighting enemies, I was mostly running around solving basic lock and key puzzles. Bayo 1 felt like it was mostly about the mechanics, and 2 and 3 seem to bother with stories and setpieces way too much. I'm hoping that maybe the more difficult modes in Bayo 3 have more interesting encounter designs... The first few hours also felt very Astral Chain to me, with the cold, alien, urban vibes. And yeah, the kicks and punches really lack the impact they had in Bayo 1! (and now I'm reminded of your term "gameplay density" 👌)

[@magicjohnson3121]

Bayo 1 had terrible pacing and was constantly throwing things at you other than the fighting mechanics

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Absolutely cutie angel slayer mode and bloody palace are the saving graces for Bayonetta and dmc as their campaigns are too light on combat. Exactly gameplay density is key

[@RuV9999]

this. one of the motivation why i want to finish the story mode.

[@BoozeAholic]

You've described why I can't get into character action games. They have too many puzzle & adventure elements. Ninja Gaiden is the only one that keeps it focused on the fighting. Although NG1 was structured like a Zelda game of sorts, but it never got in the way of the fighting.

[@samueldeandrade8535]

@@magicjohnson3121 wtf are you talking about?

[@MaverickHunter17]

I actually think Demon Slave is a pretty cool mechanic and it gets more in-depth the more you advance through the game, lots of combo possibilities with your standard kit and weapons as well, I believe you might've dismissed it a bit too fast based on being a comically flashy mechanic

[@huymaivan8671]

I agree with you on this, he play with the normal difficulty and still in early game and already complain about spam "Jump Punch" can solve any problem, too quick to jump in conclusion! Especially he didn't consider the combat problem in Bayonetta 2 where enemy break out of your combo for every 2 second no matter what happen unless it's witch time, and still consider Bayo2 have better combat than Bayo3

[@cancer4cure483]

The point he made is not that this mechanic is bad, he said that hack'n'slash game is about clash of hitboxes between you and enemy. This range style combat diminishes risk/reward factor of a close combat.

[@raeldrews1187]

@@cancer4cure483 v from dmc 5

[@cancer4cure483]

@@raeldrews1187 sucks.

[@raeldrews1187]

@@cancer4cure483 honestly i find him fun to play it gets old fast but it is prety cool

[@bransomething]

I'm enjoying the game as a new take on the series with some very welcome QoL changes and twists to ideas the series always had, but I 100% agree with Bayonetta 1 reigning supreme, particularly when it comes to how measured/intentional combat feels (as well as having the least amount of nonsense getting in the way). And while I personally would give Ninja Gaiden Black or even TW101 the nod in terms of level design over NG2 since their combat/traversal/exploration are integrated in enjoyable ways, I would much rather NG2's hyper-focused approach over all these other detours from fighting. I understand this stuff is there to round out the experience, but if I want a palate cleanser I can just put the controller down and take a break.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah there is def a sliding scale of how many non combat elements can be included and still keep the game faithful to what experience players bought the game for, but for me bayo 1 was pushing that scale and bayo 3 has smashed it with a sludge hammer ha

[@nomight273]

3 definitely has more depth

[@bransomething]

@@nomight273 I'm like 2/5 of the way through, so I'm HOPING that's the case. It's mostly all the mini-games, traveling/side content between verses, and nonstandard fights that are dragging things down for me. I'm okay with summons/witch time replacing wicked weaves for controlling the pace of fights (for now), but I miss being able to use four different weapons at any given time.

[@nomight273]

@@bransomething the reason you only get 2 weapons now is because the weapons have ALOT more depth in this game.

[@chasepalumbo2929]

@@nomight273 holy bliss is ignorance

[@GATXShinGundam]

Interesting thoughts. I admit I like cinematic stages over the basic one but I am not sure how I feel about summons. I will get it for sure and see it myself.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

There is actually sort of a test you can do, play V in DMC 5 (if you have it) and if V feels boring and uninteresting, strap yourself in because it's very close to the Bayo 3 summon system ha. It owould be really funny if they let bayo charge summon meter like V, but I'm sure that would completely blow up the close range combat. I think in 3 Plat is trying to thread the needle of keeping the close range somewhat relevant, while still emphasizing the summons.

[@huymaivan8671]

@@TheElectricUnderground Well you miss one big point here, V cant attack the enemy himself. But in Bayonetta 3 you can summon it and line up its attack and then quit the summon immediately and jum in to attack enemy by yourself, it work just like swap weapon but with a very big weapon for the summon case. You can see more detail about it here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qaCqlZ9nebp3ecU

[@ploluap]

@@huymaivan8671 pretty cool

[@nomight273]

@@TheElectricUnderground its not the same at all? the summons are faster and they are much more responsive. they also come out instantly and can combo with bayonetta

[@rainofkhandaq6678]

@@TheElectricUnderground Weird take I must say. Nothing like V

[@platinumtoofaim]

Hey Mark, unsure if you’ll see this, as this video is a couple months old but thanks for this. I was a huge bayo 1 fan, and am a big character action player. I felt like I was going crazy with all the great reviews this game got. I’m 3 hours in and was immediately noting how much I’m not having fun, and how little actual fighting there is. Reviews that don’t focus on actual gameplay experience are unacceptable to me, and I’m glad you pointed that out.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Hey my friend! Luckily I did see this comment (KZbin will show me comments on older vids every now and then). I m very glad to be one of the few people who are looking at the game in terms of combat design rather than just talking about the lore and set pieces :-)

[@juan.v9952]

Any plans to cover Valkyrie Elysium or Stranger of Paradise?

[@TheElectricUnderground]

oh I think up next on the character action list is the cult classic Godhand!

[@epicadventureturtle1363]

Feel like 90% of the game I'm play banjo kazooie (pick stuff up, find secrets etc) and the other 10% are cutscenes. Like when do I get to fight enemies?

[@dez87]

You fight enemies most of the game

[@jemandjemand2362]

ignorance is bliss indeed. and thats why people say bayonetta 3 is amazing. its awful, its dry, its boring, it came from developers hell... where it belongs

[@absol_lute_zero9083]

This video is super intriguing. You make it seem like you've never even played Bayonetta 3. What puzzles are you talking about? And what is it about the action set pieces that upset you? Also found it odd how you claim every fight is the same, despite the variety of enemies the game has, Some that even adapt to your attacks and punish you for using demon slave too much.

[@huymaivan8671]

He just play early stage of the game, hit some basic enemies and quit right there to review the whole game, that's why he didn't talk about other new weapon and new combat mechanic when we progress futher into the game. It's also the reason why he is so bad at the summon mechanic and think that's all the game have.

[@AAron2020xydfg]

I'll have to try God hand I'm with you on Ninja gaiden and vanquish. I would like to suggest a video for you on your favorite character action games or what makes a good character action game. Nice to see a more ballenced review with some criticism as usual.

[@richterdelgan123]

10:19 YS games are character action games moran than a action rpg?

[@mmmm7211]

As a long running Bayonetta fan who has played all 3 games now, I can defo say that the 3rd game is so much more different compared to bayo 1. I really dislike the dependence and almost reliance on demon slave as it gets boring after a while but then I realise I have to do it otherwise I won’t be able to kill certain enemies 😭

[@NIHIL_EGO]

I like to alternate between the two of them.

[@KrieGor27]

Bayonetta 3's level design makes me think I'm playing Jak & Daxter at time. But I guess it was inevitable. There's much to say about 3D beat'em up history, but the genre started as very arcadey, then got interwinded with action-adventure because of Capcom and Onimusha/Devil May Cry success (which at first were both thought as new Resident Evil titles). Then they understood it was really hurting the pacing of their games plus it was difficult to add exploration, puzzles, platforming sections and make them easy enough so as to not prevent the progression of hardcore beat'em up players, so they went back from that. When they got tired of being criticized for linear level design full of nothing but combats, they went the Onimusha route again... And it's logical in a sense. The press play their games in loooong sitting sessions, they need those titles to make the breaks for them. Fast dense combats are exhausting. Anyway, I play the Bayonettas for their "Lost Chapter". The rest is just a very diluted warm-up for me. I've only poured about 6 hours into Bayonetta 3 but, so far, and while I don't think it's on the same level as the first one, it seems much better than 2. Demon Slave, while not perfect, is much better than Umbran Climax. You can just quickly incorporate it into your standard combos or use it as big punishes, it's not as omnipresent and braindead as UC. The Witch Time is no longer the only way to get proper combos! Yay! No more repulsive armor bullshit! And so far, it doesn't seem mandatory for hitting certain enemies. I still have some hope the infinite climax difficulty will remove it just like in Bayo 1. However, it seems like there's still no item penalties or so I've heard. So I don't see why they even incorporate an online ranking. Everyone will just farm invincible and attack enhancing lollipops. Enemies with super armor are way more numerous than in the first one. It's much more like 2 in that regards. Some weapons are too basic and effective just like in 2. And removing separate weapons for hands and feets is such a bummer. For now, I have to reserve my judgment. It could turn out okay, as long as the Lost Chapter is fun, intense, challenging, and the way your moves are balanced is not completely messed up.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Exactly krie it does feel like Jak and daxter or banjo kazoo or something. Yeah I focus on comparing it to bayo 1 because bayo 1 is the best of the series. If the reviews were more accurate rather than declaring it 10/10 perfect than the comparison to bayo 2 would be interesting to hash through. Also the hyper armor point is a big one for me. Hyper armor has become the bane of action game design and really is much more of an rpg element I think. It is imposes built in turns just like an rpg. We are one step away from adding a stamina bar to bayo ha

[@MikeTheGamer77]

"But I guess it was inevitable". Why? Why was it inevitable?

[@KrieGor27]

@@MikeTheGamer77 Because of what I'm saying right after that. Linear level design and concentrated fights in 3D action games often lead to bad critics. And you need good critics to sale.

[@minecraftotalwar]

@@TheElectricUnderground you just don't know how to play the game, mate. There is as much hyper armor as the first game if you actually use the mechanics of the game. Try using wink slave for once, you will understand what I'm talking about

[@huymaivan8671]

​@@minecraftotalwar After making this video, his opinion is already set in stone, so he wont bother to try other mechanic of the game which can break his reviews. I bet he dont even bother to finish the game either 🤣

[@gelatogremlin]

10:26 what game is this

[@Gogootz]

Time for a "Character action game" tier list maybe? I would say that Bayonetta series is B tier overall, maybe A tier for the first game if I'm feeling generous. I thought the first one was pretty good at the time but didn't care for Bayo 2 as much. Will probably try the third game eventually but I'm not in a hurry.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh that is a fantastic idea Jack! Spoiler Ninja Gaiden 2 is number 1 ha, behind that though the list would get interesting to hammer out!

[@jackalx2154]

I just wanted more Bayonetta. Instead I got more Astral Chain and some Devil May Cry reject.

[@dez87]

This IS bayonetta best combat

[@xenokos1602]

Cope

[@dez87]

Plays nothing like astral chain. I swear casuals and there terrible opinions

[@saaaaaaaaadasda]

@@xenokos1602 This what Bayo 3 fanboys do, don't they?

[@saaaaaaaaadasda]

@@dez87 Agree and you one of them.

[@vayeate23]

While your opinion is fine, I think this review shortchanges Platinum's usually open ended systems. If you took time to dig into the mechanics, with skill trees and others mentioning you can focus more on melee combat tactics, perhaps you should take another look. Even for Vanquish, many beginner players do not understand the combat system, but once you get into it, it's brilliant. Even Platinum's Transformer game has a crazy combo system that not many people have tried. Much like you, I also prefer melee style combat vs ranged combat. So, I will also keep that in mind as I have time to play with the systems

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah but the problem with a lot of platinum combat systems is that it all shakes out to the same sort of thing. You can do these long flashy combos but in the end the results aren't really that different. Your mostly making your own fun because when it comes to the level design and enemy design, very little of it is necessary. That s my point when talking about the game design. The mechanics are there (though summons do bog them down) but the motive to push the player to use them is not. Why should I learn a 100 hit combo if I don't need to?

[@dez87]

@@TheElectricUnderground that's the case for literally most character action games. The demon summoning mechanic adds insane depth

[@huymaivan8671]

@@TheElectricUnderground"Why should I learn a 100 hit combo if I don't need to?" Now your statement here let me know you actually over use the summon and just in the early game. Because if you're into late game, you 'll get hit alot for being over use of the summon and when the boss one shot your summon, what else have you got then?

[@minecraftotalwar]

agreed

[@minecraftotalwar]

@@TheElectricUnderground that is a lie, mate. you need to learn how to play the game before talking things that you just don't know how to do

[@2345Z]

Thoughts on Ultrakill?

[@Mashayach7]

100% appreciate your opinion on this, nice to hear what another character action fan thinks. Personally Bayonetta is the only CA series I've gotten into and I'm definitely not a casual (platinum is the minimum rank I allow myself to progress with on highest difficulty) so I can understand your comments about the level design. All I really want to do in Bayonetta is fight. I think when it comes to that Bayo 1 was perfect, and the thing is once you beat the game you really don't have to interact much with the other elements of the level design, like 95% of time you'll be replaying verses to up your score, which is pure combat. Since I'm so strict with how I play I haven't gotten very far in Bayo 3 yet but with replaying the prologue and Chapter 1 numerous times I can see that it will probably be the same so I don't think level design is something I'll be to annoyed about. In terms of combat for Bayo 3 I might have rose colored glasses on right now but I find the demon slave mechanic extremely fun, and I'm on starting to scratch the surface of how it can be used in combat to extend combos. I also think that if you want to play without relying on demon slave yoy really can, unlike Umbran Climax in Bayo 2. The fact that larger enemy's tank through all your stuff means that you just have to make sure your dodging is on point, but once you do your wicked weave type attacks can most certainly get the job done. Might take a little longer but that isn't really a problem if you just want to get a more CA type experience. One thing I wish was still present is the magic meter system from Bayo 1 and 2, I loved how much that system forced you to balance magic and figure out how to gain and maintain it while fighting, now it makes doing weave type attacks a little too free. My overall thoughts are that since I I'm gonna be spending 95% of the time in combat by the time i finish the game, and since I think the combat is excellent, I'll end up rating this game highly in the end. TBD if it'll dethrone Bayo 1 as my favorite. Hype to get into the other series you mentioned though to see how those stack up.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thanks for the awesome comment Zebulun! For me the density of the gameplay matters a lot with these sort of titles, I think having all this filler in the campaign, which is mandatory to play through, tanks the pace of the gameplay. As for the shift to the summon and dodge heavy focus of the combat design, I think this really cuts across what makes character action appealing in the first place. Rather than you, as the player, dictating the pace of the gameplay and being able to shift the risk reward with your playstyle (the more aggressive you want to play, the faster your reactions and timing need to be in bayo 1), what happens in Bayo 3 is now the game is dictating the combat. It's going to really thin out the individuality of play style because now the enemies swing when they want to swing, the summons have this baked in delay, and you are much more reliant on meter. So what happens is that you are going to see a lot of the same core playstyle. Like is said in the vid basically slap, dodge the hyper armor attack, witch time, combo into summon. This is going to be the name of the game and the variation will be just surface level which weapon you run this same sequence with.

[@minecraftotalwar]

@@TheElectricUnderground but you can dictate the pace of the combat, just practice more your wink slave combos and you will see how similar it is to the first game

[@kingj9664]

​@@TheElectricUnderground I personally think the game is really fun but at least she didn't say it was completely terrible so I guess your review was alright

[@huymaivan8671]

@@minecraftotalwar the problem is those people dont even know full well about all the move vailable in the game, they just play a few early chapter and the summon and thinking:"is that it, I hate this summon=> bad game!" I bet this reviewer dont even bother to try new weapon or doesn't know the"wink slave" mechanic at all until you mention it.

[@wabbyleg]

I haven’t opened my copy yet so I’ll watch after I play a bit. I kinda figured it won’t be as good as the first game but I’m going in with the mindset that it should still be a fun time.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah like I say at the end, if you got in with a realistic expectation (7/10 or so) you will enjoy the game, it's still fun. Just don't go in thinking your getting a mind blowing 10/10 experience. ha.

[@wabbyleg]

@@TheElectricUnderground good mindset to have with all games i’d imagine 👍🏻

[@wabbyleg]

So I’ve made it half way through the game and yeah you’re spot on. I’m actually getting frustrated with how rare it feels to just get into a regular fight without gimmicks. To be honest Astral Chain did this much better with the investigation stages and HQ parts where you get all of the non fighting out of the way right off the bat then you’re rewarded with uninterrupted gameplay. You’re right it’s still fun but it kinda wears on you.

[@PedroFerreira-sx2gd]

The more importante thing for me it is that puzzles and exploration are useless in this kind of games, and many companyes don t understand that They are all about non stop pumping action. Also hate grinding. Unfortunaly i don t have a good machine to play this game and i can t review it

[@bodine1231]

My biggest gripe is that there are way to many giant fights and on rail sections. I just wanted a whole level of regular ass enemies to fight and combo on. I couldnt get a handle on any of the weapons because it would just bounce between gimick fights.

[@minecraftotalwar]

use the trainning room then. Also, you can replay the verses alone, just choose the verses that don't have onrail sections

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Exactly bodine. The reason why the game is so stuffed with gaint fights, rather than smaller or even mid sized enemies is because platinum really really want to emphasize the summon system. Because the summons are big, do a massive amount of damage, and can actually hitstun these giant enemies. So what the game really wants you to do is hit them to gain meter, witch time their hyperarmored attacks, and then summon. That's the game plan and it works at the highest level of the game. Check out the video in the pinned comment, the guy is just doing witch time dodges and summons and is getting fast speedrun times and perfect platinum on time and score ha. The game really emphasizes this style of play.

[@minecraftotalwar]

@@TheElectricUnderground I’m sorry man, it’s not. I guess you have thought about that for a long time to come with that idea, but it’s just simply not true, you just don’t know how to play the game, I’m sorry

[@umbranelegance9034]

@@minecraftotalwar Did we even play the same game? I mean really. Just because there are a handful of fights where you can't summon doesn't mean it isn't emphasized up the ass to a ridiculous degree or combat isnt replaced with gimmicky, slow, awkward playstyles that shouldn't be in an action genre title. The degree to which summoning is shoved into your face is absurd. There's challenges based around it, bewitchments tied to it, the games time requirements are awfully 'balanced' around it, to the point that if you try to not to use them, you get shit on SO HARD by the ranking system. It's utter garbage design and stifling as hell. It's really REALLY apparent when you have to play as Viola WITHOUT Cheshire. There's a reason she only has a handful of chapters. It's not a good sequel.

[@beetheimmortal]

Interesting that you mention Bayo 1's bad level design. For years I couldn't quite put my finger on why I always get bored of Bayo, but now that you mention it, there really are a lot of parts where nothing happens, and it's just so fucking boring. And now that I think about it, this is the exact problem I have with Nightshade too, where it just has these separate arenas with some boring bullshit inbetween. Ninja Gaiden and even MGS Rising Revengeance really do this much better.

[@taters9722]

Noticed the astral chain gameplay clip. I hope they used bayonetta 3 as a springboard for astral chain 2. Game was really polished with really deep gameplay options. Thats why i didnt mind this particular take on bayonetta 3 lol. But youre right its def overhyped. Maybe this helena taylor stuff was a ruse lol

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah I think astral chain 2 and bayo 3 will be super super close to each other. Like I say in the vid the line between the action rpg and Bayonetta 3 is very blurred. Also I think it would be interesting to credit platinum for playing 4d chess with the voice actor boycott ha, but I don't think they're that clever. Who knows though maybe they did let the story grow and grow before showing their winning hand, I could see that being possible

[@taters9722]

@@TheElectricUnderground haha i really only say its a ruse because theres no gain for her otherwise. And secondly, the games visuals are pretty terrible. Same with the ui, like health bars. Bare bones and almost like its a beta. Not sure why as bayo 2 looks amazing and they had plenty of time to optimize. Idk, something seems suspicious but i have no clue what

[@SoulBL4D3]

Funny enough when the first trailer for Bayo 3 released I thought it was Astral Chain 2 for sec until Bayo actually revealed herself

[@lazorsbear7068]

I like your videos about character action games. Wish you touched this topic a bit more.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I'm really glad to hear that my friend! You are in luck because I am working on a video about godhand! I want to try to get it out in December :-) So stay tuned for that! I am going to try to cover character action a bit more frequently on the channel :-)

[@lazorsbear7068]

​@@TheElectricUnderground Awesome! Godhand is one of the most underrated in the genre

[@saaaaaaaaadasda]

@@TheElectricUnderground Godhand?Yay! Im will subscirbe now :)

[@penguinjay]

honestly dude, I just think most people are casual players so that is who gets catered to, they play on the lowest difficulty and sludge through it for a little while, they enjoy the pretty graphics and presentation and love it profusely...for a few months. They sing the game's praises, then they discard it and mostly forget about it until the remake. Most players don't even beat the game these days. So all these decisions come down to mass-marketing the game to as many people as will purchase it, and less about the tight mechanics and it being a good game with shelf life or depth. Just my 2 cents. They care about the marketability of the game more than the gameplay itself, bc they are basically *selling a movie* to most purchasers who won't even go on to finish the experience. Sometimes I'm proven wrong though and that's nice.

[@Retro_Spike]

Great I'm not crazy. I was worried lol. And props for mentioning Godhand 👍.

[@PS2_Best_Era]

Honestly, I think people rate it so highly because the main character is an attractive woman. Not to mention, I thought she was a lesbian until the third game showed other wise. It felt like a kind of girl boss power fantasy and gaming journalists love to seize the opportunity to make everything about identity politics. The game itself is fine, but DMC and NG are far superior...miles ahead of the Bayonetta franchise. I agree with the fact that Ninja Gaiden 2 is one of the best hack and slash games ever made.

[@DOGEELLL]

Facts There is a lot of clones that try to do what hideki kamiya did but failed miserably Team ninja is goted too gaming will never return to its glory days

[@ShouVertica]

Think you might have a little bit too much rose tinted glasses with Ninja Gaiden 2. The reason people don't like NG2 as much as Bayonetta or Devil May Cry is because it's really just braindead combat. Hyabusa isn't interesting, there's zero flair, and the story is non-existent. As for the criticisms: I think if you play a hack-n-slash on normal you always have the problems you list. Devil May Cry is pretty chill on normal. Bayonetta is extremely chill on normal, even giving you auto combos. Godhand can be beaten with just a couple combos. It's just perspective, if you're not challenging yourself then complaining "it's not challenging" is kind of on you, isn't it?

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I play ng2 regularly to this day. It is not at all accurate to call the combat braindead.

[@ShouVertica]

@@TheElectricUnderground It is if you play normal with upgrades on sigma.

[@benfarr6049]

@@ShouVertica sigma is trash, original ng2 on series x upscaled is the way to play, not brain dead at all most satisfying combat to this day. Bayonetta 3 feels like you are hitting with a wet noodle, brain dead is playing sigma thinking it's the ng2 that people rave about

[@xenokos1602]

@@benfarr6049 you don't know what your talking about. Bayonetta 3 has the most in depth combo potential in the series Hell even high level players like it

[@ShouVertica]

@@benfarr6049 Lol

[@minecraftotalwar]

enemies do have hyper armor but you can still combo with wicked weaves while on witch time or when you use the wink slave mechanic... you gotta understand the game before criticizing, man

[@jepajei]

I played Ninja Gaiden 2 and I find it a major flaw that you can literally just run past everything. I actually got bored with the game at some point because even more so than in bayonettas, the combat was completely abusable by using the charge technique that i forgot the name of > it kills enemies > do it again, and if I remember correctly that was also how you get good ranks. So after a while I thought "why am I even doing this?" and just ran entire levels into the next boss fight, basically. How can you defend that as "good level design"? I'm genuinely curious. I'll take locked arenas with clear enemy amount and battle ratings any day (and the game somewhat correctly acknowledging that you did well by medals). Also at 5:32 bayonetta 2 did that as well and you could skip those by just mashing A which skips the entire lines. Haven't tried if you can do that in bayo 3 as well but i would assume so. (Also in case you didn't know you can quick-skip cutscenes by pressing - & ZR at the same time). Another very weird take in this video is that that bayonetta would be a franchise for journalists and casuals in general... I don't understand your point of view at all. The campaign is cinematic and whatever, but there's TONS of just pure combat content for those who want that post-game from the side missions and their NSIC versions to witch trials. The weapons have just as much or even more mechanical depth than before and have insane variety.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I agree that the UT spam and the ability to run past a lot of enemies in NG2 are the game's biggest flaws. No doubt about that. NG2 does have some walled areas where you need to fight to proceed, but there definitely need to be more to force the player to engage. Funny enough Razer's edge cut down on the UT spam and no one cared or gave the game credit for that, which I think is a shame. That being said there are a ton of action games that have this issue of running past that I would still say have strong level design, Resident Evil 4 for example. I would say it's an oversite more than an issue with core design. The problem with Bayo's method of doing combat and level design is that you are essentially playing two completely disconnected modes, overworld mode and combat mode, like an rpg. And since every encounter is completely fixed and static, you lose the dynamics of enemy placement and level design. Think of it like this, if you remove the platforming and walking around elements of bayo, what you would have is devil palace essentially. Fixed combat encounters that you would transistion through but would not connect with one another. If you remove the traversal element of NG2's level design, the game would lose some brief sections but most of the game would remain in tact, that's because the levels and enemy placements are intigrated. So if you were to come in and fix these issues in Bayo vs NG2, in NG2 you could literally just place in some lock off invisible walls every so often to stop the run through strat. Whereas with Bayo you would have to heavily compress and redesign the levels. The campaign would shrink down to a very short experience ha. I would prefer that the bayo campaign be shrunk down and the traversal elements removed, but that would also show there needs to be more meat in terms of combat encounters.

[@jepajei]

@@TheElectricUnderground I appreciate the answer. "And since every encounter is completely fixed and static, you lose the dynamics of enemy placement and level design. " Dynamics of level design and enemy placement have never been a big focus of bayonetta games. It's just how the combat fundamentally works that doesn't really work well with platforms and other gimmicks. Like you said if you removed the transitions from one encounter to another it would be just bloody palace, but imo that's okay. While mechanically it wouldn't make much of a difference, the fact that these walking transitions still exist definitely still affects how the game feels/flows. In general I know it's different for Ninja Gaiden and that's fine. Also honestly I feel like you just don't seem to properly understand the combat system of Bayonetta 3 even, while calling it casual or "RPG-like" and whatnot based on the clips you're showing here and based on the way you talk about it. You don't just stand while you do your summons, you're still supposed to be attacking yourself all the time and dialing the summon attacks WHILE you're doing your own combos; if anything, this opens up the possibility of juggling big enemies (that wouldn't otherwise be juggleable at all in bayonetta 1 or other action games) by another puppet character (the demon) while doing your own damage on top of that. It's difficult, you really need to do some serious multi-tasking, but the way you speak about the game and the clips you're showing here really shows that you basically don't even understand the system. I don't mean to sound condescending but this entire rant of yours sounds completely misguided, like you say the game has shifted from "up close and personal" to "ranged combat" and that factually just isn't true AT ALL... or well it can be true if you're using the mechanics ineffectively like a surface level casual. Honestly, I have my doubts about you being a "hardcore character action fan" because it seems to me you might be the opposite :>

[@paulanderson3772]

The refreshing voice of reason and reality. Thanks man.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thank you Paul! Like I say at the start of the video, its not the path to popularity in the social media age, but I like the idea of being a resource for people who watch my channel to get a more accurate impression of how games actually play ha.

[@NuiYabuko]

@@TheElectricUnderground Accurate? Talk about arrogance.

[@michielkroder4031]

For me, I can't yet call it a masterpiece or a bomb, that's just hot takes or the unfortunate effect of journalists having to deliver a review by deadline within a game's release window. But in today's gaming climate, Bayonetta 3 is almost like a breath of fresh air to me, with its release timed just right. I started playing this on release day and had to pull myself away at 4 in the morning and I NEVER do that anymore, so that's telling. I do recognize what you're saying, Mark, with the deemphasis of close quarter combat and physical interaction of hitboxes, but I personally don't mind that as someone who also loves to play keepaway or zoning characters in 2D fighters, shutting opponent's options down and preventing them from getting in. So I find games like Astral Chain and Bayo 3's Demon Slave system more than a bit fascinating. I think this third instalment breaks away quite radically from the first 2 in terms of mechanics, but I also see that there is a lot that's replacing it. Where I'll fall in the end on how succesful it all is or how it will come together, I'll reserve judgement on, but I'm also taking the fact that I'm really enjoying this first playthrough much more than a lot of other 3D polygonal games of recent memory into account, as that's also worth something.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah exactly there is no incentive to try to be level headed with a game review these days. Your either ignored or yelled at ha. In the case of bayo s design I think your comparison to astral change is accurate and also the problem for me. Astral chain is an action rpg, bayo 3 is supposed to be character action and combat focused. But now the line between the two is very blurred and I don't like platinums style of combat anymore ha. It s pushing further and further away from the core fundimentals and further and into system management and rpg style tactics

[@titi64230]

Hello Adrian, nice video . I m a switch player, i m playing to the first one , and i m not huge fan . Also got a xbox 360 for shmup from your advice , and after riding your comment , i will take ninja gaiden 2 . I got Vanquish last week because i was on platinium vibe after nier automata on switch . It seems that you recommand this 2 games for 3d action game . One more ?

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh God Hand for sure! That one is kinda tricky because it's stuck on the ps2 but if you don't have access to a ps2 the ps2 emulator on pc has improved a lot recently.

[@titi64230]

@@TheElectricUnderground yes thanks , god cost so much money ... i have took ninja gaiden 2 this afternoon after your advice!

[@angelbandicoot5687]

you should have your camera aligned with where youre reading from

[@huymaivan8671]

Well you miss one big point here, in DMC 5, V character cant attack the enemy himself, but in Bayonetta 3 you can summon it and line up its attack and then quit the summon immediately and jum in to attack enemy by yourself along with the summon still attacking there, it work just like swap weapon and combo but with a very big weapon for the summon case. You can see more detail about it here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qaCqlZ9nebp3ecU

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes for sure, it's not 1 to 1 the same, there are differences. But the overall style strikes me as really similar. Imagine if bayo could pop out a book and read to build meter XD. For me, the key difference is that V is a side character, and in bayo 3 summons are all throughout the whole game ha.

[@huymaivan8671]

@@TheElectricUnderground It's actually not similar, the Bayo 3 game encourage you to switch between summon and close combat, just like DMC game encourage player to switch weapon to do combo. And both game have penalty for using repeat over and over again. You 'll get hit alot if you using summon alone in the late game or boss battle

[@MikeTheGamer77]

@@huymaivan8671 Do you deny that Bayonetta 3 is heavily summon focused whereas the first two were definitely not?

[@antop4597]

@@MikeTheGamer77 Nope it's not heaily summon focused in the slightest. The game gives you the option to summon, doesn't force you to unless plot demands it. I barely even used my summons in fights, even against Rodin i didnt summon once.

[@huymaivan8671]

@@MikeTheGamer77 I just consider Bayonetta 3 's summon work just like another weapon or fighting style in DMC to me. We switch weapon and fighting style all the time, so it make no different if it's summon. People tend to angry at some thing new or creative which they cant get used too that's all. May be after a few months people 'll praise Bayo 3 just like how Bayo 1 get bad sale at first and now we all praise it

[@soc3836]

I feel like based on the footage shown, some of the reason you might consider the combat long-range or unengaging is because the footage shows a very safe and reliable strategy that protects your health pool, but looks very slow. I also hated V in DMC5, but I don't think that's what this is. Similar to my feelings about Beyo 1, this is not a hard game, but there is a lot of room for skill expression while maintaining a medium skill floor. Thus casuals can enjoy it while more seasoned character action game fans can sink their teeth into the full complexity of its systems. I think that's the secret to its mass appeal more than the spectacle. Most people will be able to play it, but also have room to grow. So that slave summons enable passive gameplay I think is more intended as being the easy path for more casual players who will not try to platinum each stage whereas more serious players are intended to only use that to supplement their up-close attacks.

[@saaaaaaaaadasda]

Nope, Demons Slave is requireded to have best ranks and defeating some enemies.

[@michelecatani9295]

Thanks, I really like your not-biased and honest opinions, I think a game without faults or defects doesn't exist, and your arguments are totally valid and I agree with them! Same for me happened with two sacred beast / untouchable games, Zelda Breath of the Wild and God of War, very few people pointed out defects in those games, and for me, they are not a 10 (because perfection doesn't exist). I always suspect when there is a "hive mind" of sort and everyone must think the same...

[@NuiYabuko]

Of course he's biased. Like what? A 10 doesn't mean perfection. And have you actually been online? People complain about BotW all the time.

[@Absurdistcomedy]

There's no such thing as an unbiased review. Literally every form of media criticism is biased.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

That is exactly what happens Michele. Here's how it goes, and you can track this across a lot of different releases. Once that hype train starts rolling, reviewer after reviewer will start dropping the 10/10 and perfect scores, even if deep down a lot of players recognize that the game is far from perfect. But no one wants to step out of line because the second they do the swarms of angry fans will yell at them (like senseless here commenting on your comment). And then, as months go by, people do start to point out these issues but the reviews are already done. MGS4 is a great example of this. There is no way today anyone would say MGS4 is a 10/10 game, the idea would be silly. And yet, you look at that game's scores from when it came out, so many 10/10's. So check back in a few months time on Bayo 3, there is no way this whole flawless masterpiece status holds up ha.

[@Absurdistcomedy]

@@TheElectricUnderground that's not the games fault. That's entirely a cultural problem where people grade things similar to the school system where 50% is seen as an auto failure. Bayo is definitely not a 10/10 and nothing is. Plus, it's all biased so if it is 10/10 for somebody it doesn't have to be 10/10 for anyone else. No offense, but similar to how reviewers refuse to review things lower than 7 out of fear of coming off as too harsh, I feel like a lot of online critics come off as extremely harsh to counteract it (as if they're more enlightened than IGN). It's not a conspiracy theory, it's a cultural problem. I just think it's ridiculous anyone would assume there is such a thing as unbiased reviews, when everything is formed by out perception and opinions of the world.

[@Absurdistcomedy]

@@TheElectricUnderground once again not trying to be rude, you helped a lot with making me fall in love with shmups

[@chasepalumbo2929]

Dude you are such a breath of fresh air it’s insane. Bros? More bayo and chill?

[@ungabungus01]

I already know what the complaints are gonna be 1. Too much focus on demon slaves 2. Forced to use viola 3. Forced mini games/side chapters (all bayo has this) That being said those above complaints are valid if you don't like that

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh you guessed some for sure! But there are others that are less obvious (I hope ha)

[@orfeas2335]

Exactly my issues with the game. Especially demon control felt so laggy, clunky and tedious

[@nomight273]

@@orfeas2335 are we playing the same game? the demons feel quick and smooth

[@orfeas2335]

@@nomight273 Takes at least 3 sec for an attack to take place. Finished it yesterday

[@philipblaskowski5244]

@@orfeas2335 you're supposed to use demon slave in tandem with bayo. Queue up your demon's attacks and you're free to move and attack with bayo.

[@nobodytonobodysbusiness]

This is why I love your channel - honesty.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thank you my friend! Yes, one of my goals is to be a reliable source of quality feedback, rather than just being another internet yes man.

[@dez87]

Nah he's just wrong

[@nobodytonobodysbusiness]

@@dez87 Thanks for the insight bruh. I'm off to play COD myself.

[@dez87]

@@nobodytonobodysbusiness have fun playing that trash

[@nobodytonobodysbusiness]

@@dez87 Glad you have the ability to spot sarcasm.

[@zazi77]

I agree with you as usual , nice video

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thank you my friend!

[@blackchungus601]

Definitely agree with the most of the opinions. I have tried tons of games that are tagged "action", but most of which are action RPG games with heavy focus on rpg. Games I have tried include Elden RIng, Dark souls, Bloodborne, God of War (the one released in 2018), Zelda:botw, Final Fantasy VII Remake, and other countless action-adventure games. Never have I played these games for more than 10 hours, simply because random things you have to do in between the fightings distracted me from enjoying the action combat. Back to Bayonetta 3, does this game loses the core "Bayonetta action" mechanics? No, definitely not. The combat and actions have a lot more depth and fun when comparing to the previous sequel. However, in the first playthrough, the style and the pace has changed drastically due to the RPG elements implemented. I have played Bayonetta 3 for 20 hours so far, yet I am still at chapter VI. As everytime anything distracts me, I lose interests in keep playing and start afk, until I feel like to play again. What's more, this game upto chapter VI does a poor job introducing the new ui and game mechanics. For instance, not until chapter VI did I realise you can unlock skills in the skill menu instead of purchasing form Rodin like previous games. Another example is the game not introducing how to lock on the enemy and do flashy combos(at least not until chapter VI). Also, the damage done by summoning is rediculously high with a few other numberwised tunings. In summary, with the expectation of a new action bayonetta game, this game immensely confuses me. While I start to realise, Devs has merged RPG elements into the game, everything makes sense. This is not to say the game is no longer an action game, all "hardcore" action game aspects seem to be there as I get to see the skill menu. Bayonetta 3 is definitely a good game in general audience point of view. Quite a few of my friends who has never played action game tried Bayonetta 3 and enjoys multiverse settings , the story and the gameplay. Some of them are even getting hooked to action game and might try out Bayonetta 1&2, ninja gaiden and Devil May Cry. My fear for this game is that it becomes something like Assasin creed, where the franchise eagerly absorbs other game elements and present itself as a souless mixture of video game mechanics.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Excellent analysis my friend. My feelings exactly I am absolutely not an rpg guy myself and as soon as I find myself on the business end of stats and builds I lose interest. At the end of the vid I compare bayo 3 to GG strive and I think they have a lot in common. And like strive as time passes and the hype starts to fade, people will see the game and it s compromises more objectively

[@nomight273]

@@TheElectricUnderground your gg strive and bayonetta 3 comparison fails when you realize 3 has MORE mechanics

[@brady9592]

Something I think that’s worth mentioning, aside from any direct opinion on Bayo 3, is the time pressure on games critics. It’s difficult to disentangle their relatively surface level engagement with the games they review from the time crunch of barely getting any time with a game, having to get the review out on tight deadlines, and then immediately move on to the next one. In other words, I think the profit structure of game journalism (and right there next to - internet algorithms) are a bigger issue than the people themselves. Just wanted to add that aspect to the conversation.

[@xdearlifex]

Having known this since I was a teenager watching zero punctuation it's very frustrating hearing people bitch so hard about game journos. Your problem is capitalism, my friend, not walking sims. People often use game journos as proxies for hating casual audiences. They want to feel like they arent elitist assholes while shitting on people who just want to have fun with games, but lack the critical thinking skills to straddle that line like ratatoskr does.

[@tbc1880]

​@@xdearlifexwell tbh only reason the journalists have to rush is because people trust their rushed reviews. And those people are casuals. If you aren't casual you don't trust them and instead listen to a few people who are deep into the genre and take their time with a non shill review. Problem imo isn't capitolism its people's (casuals) standards being low. If people had higher standards reivew companies would demand more time to give a solid honest revi- lol yeah no. Cause most of them aren't honest because they want more review copies. But once again, casuals trust a heavily biased reviewer... who is rushed and can't possibly give a good one with the time they got. So yeah I blame the casuals and I dislike the game journalists for how they operate but the journalists only exist due to the casuals.

[@ronnygranados2433]

great review, i agree sad bayo got watered down but I'll get it down the line. like you said its not terrible but it should have been great.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Exactly Ronny. My review is not actually that negative or I'm not saying its some flaming disaster, just that the 10/10 train is not at all accurate and that the game is a step down from Bayo 1. Where it stacks up with bayo 2 would be kind of interesting as the two share a lot of issues, though bayo 2 is still probably better.

[@ronnygranados2433]

@@TheElectricUnderground yeah all these fanboys, game critics & all around simps are nothing but sheep following the heard of what's trending, camtvome up with nothing of there own. and i agree, i can tell this is the weakest one in the series, again i can see myself getting it later on but not right now especially when god of war ragnarok is around the corner.

[@nomight273]

so you didnt play the game? bayonetta 3 literally has more mechanics and in depth weapons

[@nomight273]

@@TheElectricUnderground bayonetta 2 is terrible. you cant even combo enemies without witch time

[@NuiYabuko]

@@ronnygranados2433 You know it's the weakest by looking? lol

[@Juju-cm7ge]

You’re my favorite KZbinr by far. You keep everything 💯

[@86lanzo]

My dude...I thought I was the only one who thought Ninja Gaiden 2 was the best character action game ever... No lie I played DMC5...and as soon as I finish it I loved it...but I played NG2 after and realized what DMC 5 was missing..which was enemies who wanted to kill you.. Dmc5 enemies just feel like they're there for you to style on..while NG2 enemies feel like they're there to destroy you at all cost .

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Exactly my friend!!! The enemy design and level design, on top of the combat, is so strong in NG2

[@platinumconquest2365]

If you liked DMC5's combat but wanted a tougher challenge, I'd suggest you pick up DMC3 at some point. DMC3 was far more challenging than every other DMC game that came after it. DMC3 has the reputation as being one of the hardest action games of that generation (some would argue even up there with Ninja Gaiden). Unfortunately Capcom saw that certain people were complaining about the challange and overcorrected the difficulty for DMC4 onwards.

[@minosomething6734]

i mean bayonetta 3 is in my top 5 games of all times and ive been playing games my whole life basically, and i love the core gameplay, and its not the same 5 enemies, every single verse tries to teach you to do something different. Viola challenges your dodging by taking it off, Bayonetta has more strict dodge timing. I mean I play a game for the story and the gameplay, and yes it does get interrupted by story sometimes, and there's a lot of different combos and different playstyles. with more than 20 weapons with their own unique sets of learning curves. your sore is shit if you start repeating actions over and over. You need to combo for a good score. the game made me cry it made me FEEL something, it was so fun to fight the bosses with context with the story. ninja giden or wtvr doesn't look interesting it feels like a sandbox where you just fight and get to the end. The jeanne sections were amazing because it was something different. the core gameplay is incredibly varied since there's a ton of weapons with a ton of demons and different strategies, there's some exclusive to the clock tower, some to madama butterfly. That shows you played the game refusing to get into the gameplay more than surface level, you found the strat to push enemies up and refuse to experiment any further... that's like playing a shooter and just using one gun because it works for the level 1 zombies .-.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Glad to hear you are enjoying the game, though top 5 games of all time seems very strong to me, especially since you just got the game this weekend. I didn't play the game refusing to enjoy it ha. That s always a funny way to deflect criticism. The thing is that nothing of what I said is innaccurate, and you are fighting a small pool of enemy types over a long drawn out span that takes forever to advance with all the constant interruptions. Really game critique feedback often comes down to this point of well if you really settle in, and play the game just right, that s where the fun is. Essentially how can any game be flawed then?

[@dez87]

@@TheElectricUnderground I mean. The watered down point is inaccurate

[@huymaivan8671]

I guess reviewer nowaday dont have enough time to complete the game, let's just play the first chapter then write review about it while it still hot and move on to another game as fast as possible.

[@fazares]

Ahah, an interesting take...thats for sure! DF almost demolished this one, technically..looks worse than the previous entries! Btw i bought it d1..but yeah....i partially agree with u! :P

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah I think as the hype dies down the game just will not hold up to bayo 1 or stuff like dmc 3 - 5 or ninja gaiden

[@ILoveAsuka]

catherine music? nice

[@TheElectricUnderground]

A man of taste!!! I'm glad someone noticed ha. I used it because bayo soundtracks are apt to get copyright struck later on and I don't want this video copyright struck randomly in a year ha.

[@crownlessking101]

The game has hitstun and combos you can even juggle the enemies you can do so much more in this game than before lol. You clearly didn't understand the game mechanics. All the things you wanted are in the game.

[@jaguar4120]

Exactly. 😂

[@CarlosRivera-db8qq]

bayonetta 3 is amazing fam. you just sound salty its a better game then NG2

[@TheElectricUnderground]

why would I be salty if it was better than NG2 ha? NG2 is an old game and I want more excellent character action, I don't care where it comes from. Sadly it's just not coming from Bayo 3, not at the NG2 tier, not even close.

[@dez87]

@@TheElectricUnderground you don't even understand mechanics

[@Freddy-ff5pq]

What an interesting video, full of truth. You told everything that I think about this game and I'm a fan.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thank you so much for the great comment and tuning in Freddy :-)

[@100hundert]

This is not the video I want to see 😑 I just started playing and I hope it is at least kinda similar to the older games, gameplay wise. Mechanically, Bayo 1 is perfect, and to be honest I would be really surprised if Bayo 3 can reach the same level. With Bayo 1, it really felt like the combat came first, and I'm worried that Bayo 3 is more flashy fanservice. Excited to hear your take!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Well my reaction is more balanced than you probably expect, it's just the reaction to bayo is so manic where one week we are supposed to burn platinum to the ground and the next week it's the greatest character action ever made, it s silly ha.

[@100hundert]

@@TheElectricUnderground that's good to hear 😅 I'm so early in the game that it's hard to judge how solid the mechanics are. Most mainstream reviews don't really have a good understanding of the deeper stuff in the combat system, so I'm curious how more perceptive players are enjoying the game

[@orangemegaslide]

It's entirely possible that all of the 'casual bait' features are front loaded. The set pieces and large spaces between combat. These things might possibly be a non issue upon later difficulty, unlocking of all features and weapons, and sticking to the extra modes and side missions/trials. Future emergent gameplay could definitely create a new opinion.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

That is true in a sense since you can unlock angel slayer mode and stuff after the campaign. But this is not how I evaluate level design at all. What a lot of people yelling at me in the comments probably don't know is that I come from an arcade game background and level design is a key area that I focus on in my reviews since it is so important in arcade games. So character action does have roots in arcade games (Mathewmattosis as a great DMC vid on this) but over the years has shifted towards rpg style design, which I point out in the review. So on the idea of frontloading all the set pieces, that's even worse. The design of the campaign should have a natural and engaging flow throughout because frontloading is going to be bad for everyone. It's gonna immediately push out players like myself who dislike the constant interruptions but it's also going be seem uneven to players who accept the set pieces and go along with them. Either way it's just not good design.

[@orangemegaslide]

@@TheElectricUnderground I'm definitely not disagreeing with what you've been saying. As I see it, too, but I don't feel stable in judgment. I also came from an arcade background - fighting games competitively(not anymore), and beat em ups/belt scrollers(though not nearly as competent), latter of which is how I found your channel + iconoclast's. But unfortunately, we're a minority and dying breed, and as such we have to more often recontextualize many games released(especially if devs of these games want to keep the light on), and many times find the designs we enjoy, on the back end or through evolution or emergence - as naturally we'd be the ones to stick around and go searching intrinsically, as that path is also where most gameplay oriented depth and mastery reside. Essentially I agree with your points about level design pacing and the sort, it's a big clash butting heads with the combat, but over time those parts of the game and modes might likely be where gameplay would be least spent. As far as how the game will play out with derived depth and complexity, floor and ceiling, my opinion is reserved... as emergent gameplay can produce unpredictable results, and this game has only been out for a weekend.

[@largesmallworld]

My assumption is Bayo 3 is trying to appeal to a broader audience. The core action gameplay of the first 2 alienated most gamers.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I think you are 100% on the money here. And who knows commercially it may actually work ha. For the small group of more hardcore gamers (the audience of this channel essentially ha), it is an unfortunate direction change. It seems all the Japanese IPs are going this route which is really unfortunate.

[@goukipau]

This is what stopped me playing Monster Hunter... its a shame to hear.

[@nomight273]

no? bayonetta 3 literally has more mechanics bayonetta 2 is universally hated by top players. that game was bad.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@goukipau Bayo 3 was originally going to be an open world game in the same vain as Batman Arkham City, but the Switch's hardware was too limited. So they scraped it.

[@amooseinaroom1228]

i didn't expect to agree so much with this video :D

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ha I m glad to hear that :-) thanks for tuning in!

[@bass2126]

The level design is absolutely one of my favorite aspects of the series, they constantly experiment with the gameplay with puzzles & level design that are related to Bayo's combat abilities, same goes for the secret missions, they can give you ideas for how to experiment with the combat at times & it emphasizes Angel Slayer as the proper ground for testing your combat abilities. If you're just gonna make levels basic arenas then it's just gonna be uninteresting. Also Bayo 3 being nintendo-fied doesn't hold any ground considering Bayo 2 was published by Nintendo & kept the style & presentation of the original. I guess with 3 Platinum didn't just wanna repeat what 1 & 2 did & just wanted a fresh new look for the series, & tbh Bayo 1 is already perfect you can't really add on top of it.

[@backster4744]

Have you played Bayonetta 2 by any chance? People and myself included would consider that the best out of all 3 games in the franchise. So it could be a nice game to get into if you haven't already. :)

[@RuV9999]

bayo 2 i think has the best gameplay feels.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I have played bayo 2 but my memories of it are super hazy, i know it has a bunch of really lame level design as well (like all the running around sections) but I can't recall the specifics of the combat changes. I think it's much more like bayo 1 than 3 though in terms of combat.

[@dez87]

Most top players hate bayonetta 2 lmao

[@nomight273]

bayo 2 is terrible 3 is way better

[@tiagogomes513]

As someone who is really into bayo combat and has the 3 games, bayo 1 is the most responsive, bayo 2 feels a little tiny bit slippery and bayo 3 just doesnt feel like anything tbh

[@mishikomishiko9088]

Awesome review! As usual. Thanks a lot! 👍💖

[@TheElectricUnderground]

No problem my friend! Thank you for tuning in.

[@saturnexplorers]

I saw the direction the series was heading when playing Bayonetta 2. The franchises died to me right then and there because I knew it could only get worse.

[@MRKinoYoutube]

Thank you for telling the truth about these Bayonetta games. I need substance over style in my games, so they don't appeal to me. However, it sounds like you said the character action genre isn't doing so well these days but we can't say that with the prevalence of the Souls franchise, now can we? Everything From Software is doing, not to mention the Nioh games are the new generation of the more arcade-y games like Ninja Gaiden and God Hand. And they are killing it in the industry. Don't you think?

[@miltiadiskoutsokeras9189]

I am interested in this (with Alucard voice). From videos it seems like the same formula in environments that have less flair and color. The reported bad performance is expected from the platform.

[@sahzus]

Ninja gaiden can’t hold a candle to bayonetta 3 is something..even as a joke I would never imagine hearing

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ha no kidding right. I did read something to that effect in one of the 10/10 reviews where bayo 3 is like the pinnacle of the genre and so forth. Also game journalists have never fawned over ng2, since it beat them down so relentlessly ha

[@zeroXshinobi]

After dmcv I knew it was going to be impossible for platinum games to be on the same level as capcoms masterpiece.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah they just don't have the talent dev wise as they used to

[@minecraftotalwar]

that’s not it, you have to use the “wicked weave demon sumon”, only then you will be able to do crazy combos and play like the old bayonettas

[@thelastgogeta]

I'll watch this after finishing at least one playthrough (Chapter 4 so far). If nothing else, I'm happy with how we can apparently skip to verses to replay them, that the Jeanne side mission is surprisingly solid and that we finally got a half-decent training mode (still far below DMC5 which is still far behind some budget titles not to mention fighting games). I just started NSIC in Bayo 1 and will probably prioritise that over Bayo 3's second run based on my limited experience with that. Also hoping that Bayo 3 gets better with patches since I'm playing pre-patch (1.0 seems fully featured but uploading scores doesn't work). EDIT (3 days later): I finished the game and overall feelings are about the same though I'm at least more convinced that it is a Bayo game, just that their priorities are for elements to be there in some form regardless of implementation. Fortunately, there are a lot of unlockables/weapons and even some instant zipping tech but I know from experience that more isn't always better with these games or enough to be the best game in this just action game space - so who knows... If they aren't functionally distinct or don't link into other systems beyond Dodge Offset, even mods to allow us to have more of them at once won't help. TW101 benefitted from having the whole kitchen sink available at all times PLUS some movement tech.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah you ll have to see how my thoughts line up with yours. Though you have to admit that the praise the game is getting as among the best in the character action genre is not remotely accurate ha.

[@nomight273]

@@TheElectricUnderground it kinda is the best. best combos and weapons

[@thelastgogeta]

@@TheElectricUndergroundAdded a few thoughts to the end of the last comment before watching this video, also added a response as below... I liked the design of Bayo 1's environments a lot since they break up gameplay only a for a bit in most cases. Minigames were fairly sparse in comparison to some other games though the PP experience can't be great with them. Platforming still benefitted from the core mechanics as well. On the other hand, I don't like Bayo 3's environments for making me work in an uninteresting way to find stuff. Sometimes, I find a verse or cool secret mission - that's borderline okay but a lot of cases exist where I hit a chest hoping for a mimic or some sort of reward only to be delayed for a minute for Stone Rank platforming after a walking section or mechanics being gutted for cinematic. They did do some things well though since Elevator Action gave Jeanne something to do which was explicitly a side mission (though maybe it could be optional ideally even if it is short). No Umbran tears to worry about as well It isn't a peak action game for me (Kid Icarus Uprising and TW101 may be but I don't replay as much as I should), but it is still recognisable as Bayo though unfortunately for more surface reasons than the last game at least so far. I've unlocked a lot of stuff and will give it a proper go though, if nothing else to be more sure of what is missing.

[@SDub817]

3:22 THANK YOU! I've been saying this about Bayo 1 for years.

[@johnnyscifi]

I will pick it up eventually. I just have too many other games on the go atm...NieR: Automata, Mega Man 11, Mario + Rabids: sparks of hope, Live A Live, Luigi Mansion 3, Skyward Sword, Hallow Knight, Trials of Mana remake, Shovel Knight...:p

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah there s no hurry for this one I don't think. Not saying the game isn't worth picking up at some point, but just not something that I would feel the need to rush to right away

[@thefractalcactus]

Bayonetta has always been the easier, approachable character action game, even so far back as the first one and especially if you're comparing it to its contemporaries at the time. There were also more than a handful of ways to tamp down the challenge of that game (even on the hardest difficulty) using exploits and dominant strategy like the Killgore Durga rocket launcher trick (there might be more as it's been a while since I've played Bayo 1. I seem to remember the whip having some fairly broken setups). I don't necessarily disagree that they have smoothed over some of the series edges / made it more aerodynamic, but I think that what they're really doing is leaning more into what makes Bayonetta unique. If people want blistering difficulty, play DMC3 or Ninja Gaiden Black. Not every game needs to be those games. Hell, future entries in those respective franchises don't play like DMC3 and NGB. Having said that, I rather like that Bayonetta feels less like the pseudo-sequel to DMC1 that the first game is and more like its own thing. Also, I'm absolutely withholding any greater judgement on the games overall system depth and strategic complexity until I've cleared the highest difficulty. You've made no mention here of Demon Winking and Blinking, for example. I'm not trying to be combative or anything, lol. I just think that sometimes it can be fun to challenge people's perspectives / opinions. Especially since everyone in the comments is just piling on the group think. No hard feelings or anything. Take care.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah bayo has always been the more introductory/streamlined game among that stand outs in the genre. However there is a window of interest where as bayo has become more and more toned down it s now exiting the area of interest for a lot of character action players, including myself. The specifics of the design do matter because while you can say if a player wants ninja gaiden play ninja gaiden, then I would say well let's not pretend then that bayo 3 is in the same league or genre. Now it s much more like nier automata or an action rpg. Also bayo leaning more and more into streamlined summoning and all that is more like losing what makes the IP unique. Action rpg are everywhere these days.

[@thefractalcactus]

I do feel like Nier Automata was an influence on Bayo 3 (the level design makes that apparent) but I don't know if I out and out agree that it's strictly an action rpg. I have always attributed character action games as being titles with a high skill ceiling. Bayo 3 still has a high skill cieling, but what they've done is raised the skill floor so people can onboard a bit easier. You could absolutely label that as a watering down of core systems, sure. You used the example of GGStrive, which seems applicable. Also, I figured the Demon Slave system was going to be contentious, but I'm also really curious to see what high level play looks like when incorporating it, especially on harder difficulties. And in terms of difficulty / purity of core genre elements, yeah Bayo is nowhere near Ninja Gaiden... I miss Ninja Gaiden.

[@nomight273]

@@TheElectricUnderground you couldnt even include major mechanics of the game into your review and then compare the game to gg strive despite this game having more mechanics than 1 its literally in no way comparable to nier. you dont know what turned down means lmao and its evident in you review.

[@minecraftotalwar]

@@nomight273 exactly!!

[@orangeslash1667]

@@thefractalcactus Bayo 3 was originally going to be an open world game in the same vain as Batman Arkham City, but the Switch's hardware was too limited. So they scraped it.

[@macalloway1]

I totally agree that they are blending character action and action rpgs to the point where action rpgs are becoming character action games as well. They want to sell games and they know the "casuals" want to be able to pick a game up and do stuff and not have to master a bunch of nuanced mechanics to look good while playing. I beat a lot of games by die a lot and leaning on skills learned in the early game until after years of doing so I played a game or 2 that wouldn't let me do that. Not everyone is going to try to learn a game rather than put it down

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Exactly the two genres are blending together which I think is unfortunate. Both are looking at the other and thinking, if reduce down what makes our genres unique we will increase the size of the greatest common denominator. So hardcore RPG types (which I admit I am not) now have to deal with light combat elements and hardcore action game players (which I am one) now have to suffer through rpg elements and streamlined combat. It's an unfortunate strategy we've seen over and over again with series that start off with a specific appeal, like bayo, that gets traded in for more generic design.

[@Busterbalz]

I am a die hard NG2 fan, it was the game that introduced me to the character action genre, which is now my favorite genre of games. Bayo 1 is at its best in the witch trials, because it's nothing but you and the combat, which Bayonetta 1 EXCELS at, absolutely tight, fluid, fun. Bayo 3 is also at its best in the witch trials but playing it I notice it lacks the tight focus of 1. I bring up NG2 because the WHOLE GAME is like Bayo's witch trials, no gimmicks, no bullshit, no big eye popping setpieces for jurnos to gush about, just you carving your way through an onslaught of armies of enemies. AAA games like that absolutely do not get made anymore. That's why casuals hate Ninja Gaiden, there's no bells or whistles to dazzle them or distract them when they're getting destroyed, it's very japanese in its design philosophy: you sink or you swim. No-nonsense.

[@alegomanYTPs]

how can a game be overrated when no ones played it?

[@umbranelegance9034]

Like I wholly agree with everything that has been said. The distant combat that they're trying to shoehorn us in is pretty counterproductive to the core gameplay of hack and slash. It feels hollow and redundant. Many enemies are too big to really see when you're up close so you can't tell when to dodge. Or they will do certain moves in order to punish you by getting too close. It's awful. It feels like even PG didn't want to make this game

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Exactly Umbran, it was like they decided to trade in the entire appeal of the core gameplay. Shame :-(

[@dez87]

Bad take

[@umbranelegance9034]

@@TheElectricUnderground I read somewhere recently that PG didn't want to be known as only the Beat Em Up Action company so it's not surprising that they'd experiment with different playstyles. But there's a whopping nearly 15+ playstyles in Bayonetta 3. Alot of them have nothing to do with your typical Action genre. It's a mixed bag and, coming from a hardcore fans perspective, it's alot to swallow. It's a ballsy move to include so much change. I just wish it wasn't necessary for them to feel the need to cram in so much unnecessary stuff onto a game that only needed more polishing. Alot of casuals will say that the game is just fine but until you try to PP this title, you will never even scratch the surface of how badly it is to actually take everything on and say that it is well done or necessary. Especially with that ending. My God, thats a whole other conversation. Mostly bc I think the ending isn't what people think. It just isn't explained well in the end. Kamiha doesn't write things to have them be clear cut. It's too vague and too easy to disagree with.

[@umbranelegance9034]

@@dez87 By your definition. By all means, enjoy the game casually. But coming from a hardcore viewpoint, they have improved nothing and covered up everything else.

[@dez87]

@@umbranelegance9034 most hardcore players love the added mechanics

[@MG6344]

I still think that Wonderful 101 is Platinum's peak. The combat is a frantic back and forth, you have access to your entire weapon arsenal at once, and the camera is fantastic. But the game also has the highest amount of gimmick sections out of any Platinum game, so I can see why it's not everyone's cup of tea.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Great user name first off ha! Also yeah I have wonderful 101 on wii u, but it's one of those games I can't really get myself to play for more than a few min for some reason, maybe the whole group formation thing doesn't appeal to me.

[@TheSamuraiGoomba]

@@TheElectricUnderground I know the formation idea is definitely what kept me away from it. I like my action games to be about a lone dude or dudette obliterating everything in my way. I'm also really tired of superhero stuff.

[@MG6344]

@@TheElectricUnderground Ty. And yeah, drawing weapons definitely takes some time getting used to, but once you do get used to it, it becomes second nature.

[@ianchaurero3023]

I understand but the ending to this game is 🦇 💩 crazy!!!

[@danjohansenmusic]

I enjoyed parts of that game, but I felt it became a mess and a lot of issues with too much going on, on screen and out of the screen BS.

[@Mingodough]

I’ve only played 1 so far and I want to play 2 today. Now looking at these comments I’m seeing a whole other side, I thought ever game was good so far, apparently 2 is okay? I heard 3 was a “solid” action game not amazing but the first time I’m hearing 2 is “okay”

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Okay is absolutely key in the case of 3. I talk about it more deeply in the review but the game is not a disaster or anything, but it s watered down compared to 1

[@gregh.3361]

2’s combat is more fleshed out than 1, imo. I’ve yet to play 3.

[@nomight273]

@@TheElectricUnderground you have no idea what your talking about. just blatant misinformation

[@Mingodough]

I heard platinum has been working on a kanji game for the longest time I think they made summons on to here just to see how people would like it

[@_Paul_N]

This game turned out to be junk after how great Bayonetta 1 and 2 were. They completely ruined the franchise. Viola is insufferable and her combat stinks. Her parrying mechanic is also abysmal. She screams from the mountain tops about how strong and badazz she is, but she’s a cringe gen-z Tik Tok kid. Thank god Platinum games didn’t give her “pronouns.” They dumbed everything down so you’re forced to use demons in EVERY fight or you’re going to get bronze. You can perfectly dodge and go hit less in every fight, but your demon summon wasn’t apart of your combos so your score and medals are crap. You can’t mix and match weapons on her legs and feet like in Bayo 2 which was sick. The game strips that from you. Every enemy is damn near the same. Bayo 1 & 2 had repeat enemies, but there was variety….I’m just really upset lol.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah bayo 1 is just so much better, 3 feels like a big step back

[@nomight9363]

Someone on Twitter said "The easiest way to show me that you didn't play any puppet characters until 2019 and your knowledge of action games is limited to like four titles in total is to compare 3 Bayo and Viola to V and think you're saying something smart" And I absolutely agree Not to mention this game objectively has more depth than the past 2

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ahh yes because it's not like V's inclusion and emphasis on ranged combat wasn't going to be influential to other games in the genre ha. In my review I should have picked out an obscure reference that most players are not familiar with, to show how deep my knowledge is. I never thought I'd run across hipsterism in character action games (that's usually reserved for RPG) but here it is ha. So outside of your gaming hipster quote what is the point that your making? That since other games have used "puppet characters" in character action therefore the way it's used in bayonetta 3 just automatically works? There's no need for nuance here. Also puppet character is a very broad description. How the mechanic works and how it's incorporated into the game design is going to be important. This comment is just a blind appeal to authority to some guy on twitter.

[@nomight9363]

@@TheElectricUnderground you even thinking of comparing it to V is foolish enough. It's literally nothing like v. His whole playstyle is literally JUST the demons he controls and they are controlled MUCH differently than bayonettas demon slave. It's such a foolish comparison that's literally just based on "wow this character can controll demons?? That's JUST like V!!" Not to mention you kinda outed yourself in other comments on simply not being very good at the mechanic at all

[@saikorofunk6498]

I agree. So disappointed in Mark. Thought he was better. He’s literally using a subjective ideal model of what he believes a character action should be and compares that with Bayonetta 3. The problem with that? You see it when he compares Bayo 3’s level design to ‘Western’ games and ‘not Japanese’. Making such binary statements can sometimes lead to looking at a society one-dimensionally and this leads to stereotypes and half-truths. If you’re too rigid with your labels, you begin to water-down your observations to fit your model. And you can guess what happens when you do that to an entire culture. His idea of Bayo 3 doesn’t fit his internal model of character action games. But is his model accurate or skewed like his western level design comment? Has your model evolved as more games come out to test this definition? For how much he criticizes journalists, why is it that I get the feeling that these journalists actually played the game to its end but not Mark? Guess I’ll play one level of DoDonpachi and review it. I’m sure I’ll do it justice. And yet he finds nothing wrong with acting like this. Wow! How does he think he’s on the same level as these journalists he’s criticizing then? I’ll give you a hint Mark. It’s called, stop being lazy and finish the game for a proper review. It’s obvious. Stop relying on your intuition so much cuz you missed the mark here. It’s not the conclusion you make - it’s how you got there. What if you’re idea of character action games are too rigid and flat? Maybe calling character action games as 3d beat-em ups like you did on someone’s comment is not entirely accurate? Guess Yakuza is also a character action game too. Maybe your idea of action rpg is not defined well either. Sounds like something a reviewer who prides himself on analysis should think about. Oh and hipsterism? Lol. Sounds like a hipster thing to say. Good job. That another model of yours?

[@Eoryu]

@@saikorofunk6498 he also just posted a speedrun in a comment and went “see! I’m right!” Completely disingenuous

[@minecraftotalwar]

couldn't agree more