Devil May Cry is MORE Than Buzz Marketing (Phantom Blade Zero).

[@NerfMaster000]

I noticed that a lot these so-called modern character action games are just "press A to do flashy attack and wait for the 10 second cooldown to use it again"

[@gibleyman]

As a DMC fan, this is always infuriating. People saw some high level combo vid on DMC5 and now suddenly an anime action game with a flashy ult animation is "kinda like DMC". A game with the depth of an mmo from a decade ago, but has cool effects and animation when you attack? Yea DMC-like.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yeah that's the worst, it looks like that's how this phantom blade thing is gonna be designed, which is actively worst than just tying a single attack to a single input. What makes combos fun in the first place, that I think devs have forgotten, is that it's the player, not the dev, who is combining the sequence of attacks together.

[@lucaswibisono1316]

And with anime gacha games, things get called "DMC-like".... A LOT. Especially if it came from Mihoyo itself (who's already a big fan of the series)

[@gibleyman]

@@lucaswibisono1316 I think what's interesting is how these bigger budget anime games are unknowingly borrowing way more from Nier than they think. Most anime games are Nier clones that try to pretend it's more DMC like. Which is something I always find interesting. The modern general understanding of character action games are closer to what games like Metal Gear Rising, Nier automata, Transformers Devastation etc do with the formula, and mistaking those as what a proper classic, off the rails character action really is. Which it isn't.

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground @The Electric Underground I have a question have you tried more indie games and double AA games? Because indie games and double AA games are doing better than triple AAA games. You should try out more indie games. I hope you respond.

[@rohansensei5708]

People see some stylish animation and call it DMC straight away

[@acidreighn]

anymore, its like 99% think any game where you move a character around, pressing buttons, and swinging a sword = souls I wouldn't be surprised to go on some souls forum or subreddit and see people calling DMC5 a soulslike, which is about infuriating.

[@SolidSnake240]

​@@acidreighn😂😂

[@TheElectricUnderground]

exactly lol, it drives me nuts.

[@rohansensei5708]

​@@acidreighn Calling DMC5 a Soulslike is a bit of a stretch (I've witnessed it, yes, it's so dumb), but I can't even blame people anymore when they see a modern action game and call it a Soulslike, given how much developers have leaned into Souls combat, from movement to lock-on and inputs. Even God of War, which had one of the most original gameplay systems and was the pioneer of Western action games, transformed into a Souls game with hack-and-slashy elements. The one thing that definitely infuriates me is people claiming that Devil May Cry, God of War, or Ninja Gaiden are just the "same" games with "button-mashy" combat. Doing an attack back-to-back is considered button mashing, and dodging twice is considered panic rolling these days, specifically because of Elden Ring. When I've claimed that Elden Ring needed newer, faster and flashier animations Fromsoft fans would reply ''Then it would be DMC and braindead lol git gud'', yet then the Shadow of the Erdtree came and did exactly what I said and they loved it.

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground I have a question have you tried more indie games and double AA games? Because indie games and double AA games are doing better than triple AAA games. You should try out more indie games.

[@vul4ak]

Fine... I'll bite for discussion's sake. There's essentially two DMC philosophies. One is Kamiya's DMC1 "I am at the arcade and I want to show off. Not only can I beat this game on 1 credit, but I can also do fancy tricks to wow the crowd." This is small stuff like the intended bonus damage of Helmbreaker when you execute it from a higher point (for example after a double jump) or shotgun twitching (spamming left and right while firing the shotgun so you cancel the reload animation) or even sword cancels by doing your first two basic hits and then doing a 360 on the movement stick to immediately cancel the recovery frames and restart your trick again. THen there's knowing how to execute a critical hit on an enemy for an instant kill and so on and so on. Then there's Itsuno's DMC which is heavily influenced from his days at the arcade division of Capcom where he worked on fighters. His idea is what you talked about - self-expression through developing your own way of playing. His design philosophy behind each style came from different FGs and even DMC2. Trickster is for those who liked the movement and dedicated dodge button in DMC2, Swordmaster is for people who liked anime fighters and their air combat. Royal Guard is for people who liked the block in Street Fighter 3 and Gunslinger is supposed to be "Dante just being Dante" or if the limited moveset is anything to go by - this is the style for people who liked DMC1's less broad moveset. So if modern soulslikes really want to invoke DMC, their best bet is taking a page from Kamiya's philosophy and include fun stuff the player can do within the confines of the game. A perfect example is that iron golem boss thing in DS1 that you can topple off the arena if you make it lose balance close to the edge. That is exactly the type of shenanigans you can see in DMC1 (See the instakill on final Phantom fight via the glass floor). You do not need jump cancels or air juggles for that - just interesting ways of fighting the enemy. Want a good scoring system? Have stuff award more souls or whatever currency said game is using. You killed a skeleton? Cool, here's 1000 points. You killed a skeleton with a mace which instantly cracks the skull for an instakill? Good job! You've shown creativity in approach - 1200 points for you! (DMC3 itself does this with its EXP system) One last thing. Royal guard actually has different levels of counter release. Frame perfect releaes are Gold releases and deal the most damage - that's when you counter right before the enemy hits you. A little bit earlier gives you a Silver release that still does damage but you're noticeably slower in your dash and the enemy doesn't take as much damage. Then there's the bronze release which is the weakest and you take chip damage from it. There's a ton more going on in RG and how it works and its place as an animation canceling tool but this comment is already a novel's length.

[@y2kjetters317]

Its funny to think but dmc3 has a rpg aproach to combat even with how leveling up styles work certain style work better for certain bosses. Every dmd ss agni and rudra fight on youtube has the same strat. But dmc3 does promote creativity in a way with its style system. Itsuno mustve been trying to put some of his dragons dogma isms in dmc3 lol

[@KozmikProduction]

That Kamiya analogy is spot on especially if you played his later games like viewtiful joe, bayonetta and wonderful 101. His games always have these little tricks you can use to show off stylish play. It definitely comes from his love of arcade games.

[@AcceleratingUniverse]

protip: don't start a post with "fine.. I'll bite" if nobody asked for your opinion

[@vul4ak]

@@AcceleratingUniverse Nobody asked Underground here for his opinion on DMC either... but protip: don't start a comment with protip unless you acrually have a good tip.

[@vul4ak]

@@y2kjetters317 I used to joke with other people that DMC3 is a JRPG and the styles are different classes you can adopt. Now I am not sure it's that much of a joke hehe. Srsly though - DMC3 was developed after Itsuno had already worked on his Dragon's Dogma pitch document so there could be some DD ideas that slipped in.

[@guigondi7671]

22:36 I think the only reason DMC6 hasn't appeared is because the director, Hideaki Itsuno, has been working on Dragon's Dogma 2

[@LoliconSamalik]

That is absolutely the reason. DD2 is Itsuno's dream game he always wanted to make. in fact, he was told he could only work on one game at a time between DMC5 and DD2. He chose DMC5. So now it's full circle.

[@jerm5466]

Yep. It’s weird he’s saying he doesn’t think Capcom can do it anymore despite having done DMC5 in 2019 which is one of the GOAT action games

[@yeti1221]

@@jerm5466 Yeah but Itsuno left Capcom, so he's right.

[@desudesudesudesudesudesu]

I wish DMC1's formula came back. While that game only had 1 enemy type on the screen, the enemies were rather proactive and had varied movesets

[@BazusoHawk]

I wonder if capcom would be keen on making a remake of the dmc games. With the dead rising remake coming out and the fact that they've remade many of the RE games maybe they'll revisit dmc in the future.

[@desudesudesudesudesudesu]

@@BazusoHawk i wouldnt mind a reintrepetation of DMC1 with a more survival horror focus , felt like that whole aspect got thrown out of the window with 4

[@BazusoHawk]

@@desudesudesudesudesudesu The thing is with the direction that the dmc games are going with now Idk if capcom would go that direction for the remake. It seems like they've really honed in the 'super sentai' tone of the series and want to steer away from the horror elements. But then again the RE4 remake still kept most of the atmosphere of 4 and still kept Leon's characterization the same. Who knows.

[@loxilix9206]

It’s been a while since I played DMC1, however from what I can remember the game has no issues throwing 3-4 enemies on screen, sometimes more. The only time I can remember where you fight 1 enemy at a time is bosses/mini-bosses.

[@desudesudesudesudesudesu]

@@loxilix9206 I meant enemy types, you never see multiple enemy types like you do in DMC3. Individually DMC3> enemies have much simpler movesets

[@cmckevitt]

this is what I hated about stellar blade I saw that it’s advertising itself as a fast-paced action game and when I got it I was so dissapointed that it’s literally just dark souls with a stinger thrown in

[@jurtheorc8117]

Can recommend to have a look into the likes of the upcoming Genokids, Enenra Demon Core and Immortal & the Death that Follows. possibly Yasuke: A Lost Descendant, Gori: Cuddly Carnage as well. For already existing ones, have a look at Soulstice. Despite what the name may imply it's NOT a souls-type game. Plays more like... well, the devs cited DmC:DMC, DMC5 and Bayonetta as inspirations, while tone- and writing-wise it feels more Darksiders and some shots are like from GOW. Clash: Artifacts of Chaos may be interesting too.

[@ziontea7045]

Currently playing soulstice now actually. Definitely holds up to the older character action games like DMC and GOW​@@jurtheorc8117

[@judojd]

Stellar Blade wasn't advertised as a fast-paced action game. They literally said on multiple occasions it was more on the methodical side of gameplay with souls influence than mindless mash character action hack and slash

[@ziontea7045]

@@judojd another case of marketing team and developer explanation not matching up then. The marketing for the game definitely supported the former

[@GrubKiller436]

Thing is, Stellar Blade reminds a lot of people of Nier Automata... for obvious reasons...

[@JohanCruyff-wj4pf]

I'd honestly rather play the DMC reboot than half of these souls clones tbh. Doesn't have anywhere near the depth of the originals for sure, but there's a bit more to it than you'd think. If it wasn't called Devil May Cry I don't think it would be as reviled.

[@cajs100]

Gotta admit the reboot's combat and music is actually good tho

[@spiritpyros]

most peoples issues with the reboot is that its a dmc reboot and if it wasnt a reboot it would have been much better received because at its core its a good action game its just not DMC

[@Matheusss89]

Everyone knows what things look like, but nobody knows what makes them what they are. That is the problem. Saying a game is 30% DMC just because it has flashy, fast attacks doesn't mean much. Many "soulslikes" feel terrible and not much like Dark Souls either, because they copy the superficial while ignoring how it really works and what makes it satisfying. I honestly could not get myself to finish any of these derivatives that have been popping up everywhere lately. I'm not even some elitist or high level player. I can beat these oldschool games at mid level at best, but still, when a game has tight controls, fundamental mechanics done right and a focused design, it just feels really good.

[@Senumunu]

Capcom is to blame for this as well. They never make games that force you to learn the mechanics. The fact that DMC 3 or 5 can be finished with just button mashing is very bad imo.

[@CrowsofAcheron]

​@@SenumunuI would disagree that button mashing in Devil May Cry(at least in DMC3) is effective. When I pushed myself to use multiple weapons, air juggle enemies, and use different styles, the game became a lot more fun. But boss fights also became a lot less frustrating. Button mashing is built into certain mechanics, like E&I. But I think the games are pretty good at enforcing that button(doing the same shit again and again) isn't very effective.

[@DerpyTC]

⁠@@SenumunuI don’t like this mindset, just cause the game doesn’t force feed you all the info doesn’t make it a problem, it’s that you don’t want to be creative which is what these games are made for

[@TheElectricUnderground]

very good point matheusss! yes, this buzz marketing is all about flash and surface and doesn't take the deeper design mechanics of either souls or DMC very seriously. It would actually be pretty interesting to check these new soulslike games not only against stuff like character action, but also souls as well. This is one big reason why I'm embarking on this souls game-by-game review journey this year where I'm gonna start at demon souls and go through them all one by one and track and evaluate their shifting combat mechanics, I think it's going to be really interesting.

[@ShinobiShaw]

@@TheElectricUndergroundlooking forward to it! The KZbinr Noah Getvais Caldwell did a brilliant two part reviews on all the souls game including souls like games like Sekiro and blood borne

[@Gnostic_Oppai_Enthusiast]

You're one of the only quality game analysis channels on all of youtube. Keep up the great work.

[@Zetact_]

I'm actually optimistic about the future of action games, but it's largely BECAUSE AAA action games are in a horrible place. With games using "it has cancels and no stamina system, and your character moves like a badass instead of a drunk guy who got 4 hours of sleep last night" is getting people to compare their games to DMC, action aficionados are probably seeing the writing on the wall and there's a lot of indie devs who are doing their own thing with DMC as a basis. It's not uncommon that a well liked cult classic genre only can get new releases when indie developers who love the original games are so fed up with nothing being made for them that they just make their own. Like there are a not insignificant amount of "Mega Man-likes" in the indie scene, including getting as insular as "specifically inspired by the Mega Man Zero series." The indie game scene has recently gotten past the era of "SNES era being trendy" and now is moving onto PS1/N64 being chiq which suggests to me that in a few years PS2 era games will be popular, and that means a lot of eyes will be on the action games of the time and able to pick apart why they were good. Of games that are currently on the market, Assault Spy is my go-to example probably because it's the most well-known indie stylish action game - and for good reason. It's so damn good and the depth is absolutely there even if the enemy design is a bit limited. There's interaction of an aggro mechanic, just frame inputs, business card cancels, multiple move variants (each button has moves linked to normal, dash cancel, and charge inputs as well as having DMC-style "delay input" attacks), the instant drop, the game's "Devil Trigger" equivalent primarily being for stopping enemies in place - and this is all stuff on just one of the two playable characters, Asaru is insanely complex but Amelia is also complicated, and then you later get the ability to swap between the two and the game expands infinitely more. With indie devs being able to make games like Assault Spy out of pocket I am really looking forward to seeing what else they can do.

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

I tried Assault Spy and my frame drops. Sadly, I just refunded the game. Maybe I will try it in the near future. I also got scared when firewall pops up when I played it.

[@aryabratsahoo7474]

Agree, Assault Spy is really great with it's stylistic combat.

[@jurtheorc8117]

Been hearing a lot of good stuff about Assault Spy. Hope that that one does get more known. My own favourite in the genre is Soulstice, from 2022. Devs said in interviews that the likes of DMC5, DmC: DMC and Bayonetta were inspirations for gameplay and I think i know enough of those series to see what they mean. There's seven total different weapons with overlapping inputs but differences in execution and their own utilities, a mix of a Style meter and Special Form/DT, over twenty different enemy types which get a decent amount of different attacks, a pretty unique counter system, a few different *versions* of a DT, a skill tree with quite substantial upgrades such as perfect counters boosting your movement speed for a short while (so no number- or percentage-based resistance or stat boosting) and the bosses are quite good too. As is the story and characters! Definitely rough spots,but no less worth looking into. Aside from that, if Clash: Artifacts of Chaos may count, then definitely that one as well. It's a Zeno Clash prequel and seems to have some God Hand DNA. Finding different martial arts styles and individual attacks to assign to your character, to make an own larger style with. All stances have the same options but fully different animation movesets, different speeds of execution and recovery, etc. - Combo string - Attack from a directional dodge (forwards, backwards and sideways) - Attack from a charge - Attack from a jump - Attack from a run Plus, things that are always available: - Any of your three special attacks/individual attacks that you have assigned at the moment - a mechanic where when you parry, the enemy moves slower for a little bit (it goes both ways) which can also catch and return projectiles, - a mechanic where when you input a new non-combo string move the *moment* your previous attack lands, the animation is canceled and your new attack comes out quicker - an FPS "super mode" which you can get knocked out of if you're not careful but if you deal enough damage, it leads to a generally unique high-damage Finisher animation - a Guard Meter. It's like a stamina meter but doesn't limit you from doing anything: rather, as long as there's even a *little* bit left, you only take half the damage of an incoming attack and receive less stun. It runs out from attacking, running and being hit, but refills on its own. It's not as deep or complex as God Hand and ragdolls rather than juggling, but still. Games like that don't appear often. It's a fun time with a fantastic art direction, music and atmosphere and very good story and voice acting. Can very warmly recommend. I'm currently spreading the word on Enenra and Genokids, and am wondering if Immortal and the Death that Follows, Yasuke: A Lost Descendant and Gori: Cuddly Carnage can be counted in this genre.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I think your onto something yeah. I think that right now we're in a real slump, but i do agree that I am optimistic about the future as stronger more interesting games will start to shine and become influential again. The big choke point I think isn't going to be the fanbase actually, i think it's going to be the devs themselves. Where if most devs decide that its simply too risky to make mechanically complex games, we're gonna be stuck with more basic stuff for a long time. But I can absolutely see an opening for more actually DMC inspired stuff emerging in the future, as long as they stop trying to marry it with RPGs and stuff ha.

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground ​​⁠​​⁠ you should try out more indie games and double AA games because they are doing a lot better than triple AAA games and no gaming isn’t dying.

[@thanksbetotap]

That is an excellent callout of Mario Sunshine, among many. Matthewmatosis did an awesome video on just how technically rich in moveset and precise to control Sunshine was. Still will always be the best feeling 3D Mario game, before they dialed things back for greater accessibility starting with Galaxy.

[@megamattroid9970]

Another annoying thing is that sometimes there are mechanics that players view as outdated or flat out "bad game design" despite it really being a choice, when I was S ranking DMD DMC1 I went from being annoyed at the camera to instead being actively aware of it and knowing where to stand and move to when I want it to change. This thinking in 3 dimensions was crazy and I grew to actually appreciate it, but you can't really do that sort of thing now without people complaining that the camera sucks, I mean you couldn't really do it back then either without players getting fed up. If we want new complex games designers gotta have the balls to implement whatever complex mechanic but also be skilled enough to speak the language of stupid players to get them adjusted and into it.

[@kkieki]

Love you video, you're the only guy I know who actually analyse the mechanics of games and raise interesting questions.

[@pappatrue4015]

Mark, my man, I discovered your channel a while ago and just wanted to drop a line. Thanks for your awesome in-depth discussions and for sticking to your guns, even if that doesn't make you the most popular guy on the internet. That kind of integrity and dedication is rather hard to find these days. All the best from Germany!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thank you so much my dude! Yeah I'm glad you appreciate my more critical nature on the channel because this stuff is actually really important to me in terms of discussing how games are made and evaluated, so I'm glad you appreciate that :-) Shout out to your homeland of Germany!

[@darkridearts]

I think the player skill floor drop happened around the time the HD era began and they started adding extra animations to gameplay to mask the input lag.

[@SLAMTUCKER]

Great insight.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

That's true, definitely happened in fighting games. Remember how insanely laggy SF5 and Tekken 7 were on launch lol, pure nightmares and yes I do think this translated over to single player games too. The ps3 era was plagued with input lag, I don't think devs were thinking about how many problems it caused back then.

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground​​⁠​​⁠ you should try out more indie games and double AA games because they are doing a lot better than triple AAA games and no gaming isn’t dying. I hope you respond.

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground ​​⁠​​⁠​​⁠ you should try out more indie games and double AA games because they are doing a lot better than triple AAA games and no gaming isn’t dying. I hope you respond.

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground ​​⁠​​⁠​​⁠ you should try out more indie games and double AA games because they are doing a lot better than triple AAA games and no gaming isn’t dying. I hope you respond.

[@manzanito3652]

19:19 As much as I dislike DmC, I must admit they have a point there. DmC definitive edition made genuine improvements to the base game. It's still DmC, but is the best version of it at least. DMC4 definitive edition, on the other hand, doesn't solve the main issue with the game, and is that the later half is the first half but in reverse. So it ends up being a bloody palace simulator. Dmc4 has the better combat system, is just that the critics and the public in general had other things in mind while reviewing them.

[@thelastgogeta]

DmC DE would go crazy if it was on PC and I'd rather play DMC4 still.

[@hyperreal]

I am guessing DMC4 development was rushed and part of the reason they made that choice? which is unfortunate.

[@manzanito3652]

@@hyperreal It was very rushed. They needed like another year to finish it.

[@delusion5867]

@@hyperreal rushed and they were only given the same budget as they had with DMC3 even though they were working with a new console and could have expanded the scope more. At least they sunk plenty of their effort into the combat

[@ReneGade405]

"souls games are not the peak of combat I think we should stop pretending that it was" gcn

[@CrowsofAcheron]

💯

[@leotwo2s]

peak of combat? is that a reference to gacha game devil may greed

[@ReneGade405]

@@leotwo2s no and peak of combat that game certainly was not

[@griffendesai2039]

I feel this. I get irrationally angry when people refer to Sekiro as the “peak of combat” in games. Even though it is a very good game.

[@RedgraveGilver]

@@griffendesai2039 Pressing L1 at the right time seems so mind blowing for people apparently.

[@TehListeningPost]

In the mid2000s NG and DMC were often described as hack and slash but with their own spice. The ill-described DMC-likes of today are described as a mix of DMC and Soulslikes but they don't have that arcade or hack and slash element.

[@jsblanc6169]

Hey Marc. Can't express how happy I am for the DMC video. One of my favorite games! Just want to say thank you, I found your channel when I was burn out of video games. Then, one day, I found a KZbin channel who really talk about what the art of game design for action games and it was so refreshing. Even if sometimes I'm not sure to agree, it's so nice to see a clear response, with a lot of arguments, that a lot of internet don't mention at all. Thanks to you, I learned to pick carefully the games I play and what type of game that fit me, thanks to your words about gamedesign and arcade legacy! Keep up your mentality and your style, looking up for your next subject ☺️

[@TWKIC]

Even though I have always been bad at character action games, I always appreciated how much complexity and detail and thought has been put into these games where I feel like I get a lot more value from playing them than a game where I just figure out all all you have to do is A, B, C, pretty much figured out the entire game within an hour, or the RPG system is heavily weighted against how well you can actually do versus my actual skill and reflexes

[@badpiggy4177]

Great video. I always felt like action games should go more towards the route of DMC 1 i.e you have only a few combos, but each of them has a solid purpose, whereas the enemies are varied to hell and back and really force you to more or less master the limited moveset you have ( I say limited but I mean it in a good way i.e less is more )

[@HerbieChuckNorris]

DMC 1 really feels like a 3D version of a classic Beat 'em Up.

[@saaaaaaaaadasda]

Agree, i think devs need to evaluate what's the purpose of each and every move or combo before putting it in the game, instead of making the samey launchers and combos that occupy the same niche and overlap.

[@jurtheorc8117]

I think you'll like Clash: Artifacts of Chaos. Don't be fooled by some folks calling it a Soulslike, it's more of a 3D beat-em-up type game. You can find and assign different Stances and Special Attacks to your character, a bit like God Hand. And two subsets of the enemies as a whole are always unique creatures who simply return from a previous altercation, with their own movesets, but they appear in different team-ups. Powerful platybelodon man match-up with a high-leaping triple-armed bald, vaguely cat- or bat like lady and deceptively wide-slapping chunky bird man who also slaps with his neck. Or in a later encounter, the bird man may be in the company of the only human-looking guy who has a big skull hat and wields a hammer, giving him extra power and range, as well as a fat turkey man with mushrooms growing on him. Outside of those subsets, all areas have some exclusive enemies to them as well, and some have returning enemies in stronger versions. The Karu Crags for example include an Entelodont ("Hell Pig") creature the size of a hippo which guards a Totem where you learn the Mammoth Stance, while the Zonectic Mountains have a strong presence of Hornlegs, goat/deer-like creatures with a big charge, a stand-up-and-swipe move, and a number of headbutts. And the forest has dangerously fast and powerful lion creatures called Alschroleons... who have a humanoid face like Nigel Thornberry's. All Stances have the same inputs: - Combo string - Attacks from a Forwards, Backwards and Sideaways dodge - Attack from a Charge - Attack from a Jump - Attack from a Run And you can have two assigned to switch between whenever you want, even mid-combo. And there's a mechanic at play where if you input a new non-combo move the moment your previous attack hits an enemy, the animation is canceled and the next attack comes out quicker. It's still a fairly challenging game. Awesome art direction and story too. Very warmly recommend it.

[@badpiggy4177]

@@jurtheorc8117 Sounds interesting tbh. And I'll all for something with pigs in it kek Shall look into it

[@jurtheorc8117]

@@badpiggy4177 Heh heh, fair enough :P I'm glad it's sounding interesting! The Cthenodonts (as the Hell Pig enemies are called) are no joke. Wish you a lot of fun whenever you may get to it, and have a good weekend!

[@griffendesai2039]

I love your channel. Souls games, character action games, fighting games, and Metroidvania’s are my favorite genre’s in gaming. So many content creators, game devs, and community voices like to speak on these games with a huge senses of authority, when they actually have very shallow understandings of the genres. It’s really nice to see someone who actually gets it.

[@jurtheorc8117]

Here's a list of games (recent or upcoming) that may be to your tastes, then: - Soulstice. gameplay inspirations from DmC:DMC, DMC5 and Bayonetta, but a tone and writing more like Darksiders) - Clash: Artifacts of Chaos. 3D brawler/fighting adventure where you can find & assign different Stances, prequel to the Zeno Clash series) - Cookie Cutter. Colorful 2D hand-drawn Metroidvania with a pretty quick combat system more like a 2D beat-em-up with a number of different weapons to find, from a big knockback fist to an electric guitar with more combo options. Currently a big update in production that adds stuff like new questlines, full voice acting and probably new story beats and areas too. Perhaps even a new weapon or two. Big passion project of the lead dev and he wants to substantially support it for a long time to come until the story's told in full. - Immortal: And the Death that Follows. A friend of mine described this as a Hindu Mad Max Beat-em-Up. - Genokids. Where you play as a rock band fighting off an alien invasion and can swap between all four band members (when you unlock them) at once. - Gori: Cuddly Carnage. Looks to be a kind of mix between hack-and-slash and a skating game. The hoverboard can extend into a segmented laser chainsaw. - Yasuke: A Lost Descendant. Cartoony hack-and-slash looking thing. Don't know too much of it yet. - Enenra. Cyborg ninja action. - Assault Spy. Indie DMC in suits. (held in quite high regard). - The Dishwasher: Vampire Smile. 2D Character Action with a *very* high speed, two different characters to play with their own arsenal, and only about four or five hours to play through the campaign with a single character. Perhaps a bit shorter, even. Short and sweet. *mayhaps* Kings of Hell too. More of a 3D beat-em-up with a cartoony style, though it's pretty provocative at points. The main protagonists have a wrestling theme to them, so there's a lot of thongs with prominent eggplants. I'm not a fan of the tone myself, but people seem quite positive on the gameplay. Mayhaps the 2nd: Decline's Drops. Looks to be a 2D action platformer with multiple characters. Hope these titles may prove interesting!

[@griffendesai2039]

@@jurtheorc8117 yo thank you! Hell yeah, I’ll check some of those out. Maybe I’ll let you know if I fall in love with one.

[@jurtheorc8117]

@@griffendesai2039 You're most welcome, and i'm glad that these have your interest! I'd love to hear what you'd think of them when you've looked them up a bit more. Certainly hope there'll be at least one that you fall in love with, and would be awesome if it's more than one.

[@TheMexRAGE]

For me games like Devil May Cry games, the point trying to make the best action combat choreography on the fly and the game should be able to give you the tools for it, it isnt about damage optimization....

[@drlight6677]

DMC3 actually has an in-game pause menu that details strategies and tips for each weapon, style and move that can be done in the game, with video demonstrations to watch. DMC3 came out right as KZbin was taking off so I knew about the royal guard counter-damage boost before I started to play, but I didn't know about being able to use the devil trigger gauge to do the devil trigger burst or whatever it's called that creates the purple explosion around Dante until I saw it in the in-game menu.

[@kuma-wamu]

I’m looking forward to your DMC3 guide. I haven’t watched your channel for a while. Good to see you’re still making videos. What I always really enjoyed about Devil May Cry is the flexibility of the gameplay in terms of difficulty i.e. if you want to learn all the tech you can, or you can just button mash.

[@KozmikProduction]

You are absolutely correct that the complexity and depth of these games is the reason we will see less of them. Modern devs will have to go back to the arcade mentality but the arcade scene been dead for years.

[@otterdonnelly9959]

I’ve echoed these same sentiments. Arcade games that aren’t afraid to show you and prove they are a game (fun ones at that) are too good. Arcade games are a major organ in gaming. It’s dwindling presence is greatly felt. 😢

[@theinvisibleskulk4563]

I feel like, instead, there used to be a bunch of bewilderingly different design philosophies in video gaming, but now they're all merging together into one mushy style, but easier than any of its components, partly because the generality of the new style doesn't allow much depth in any one area and partly to attract more people to gaming as a whole.

[@otterdonnelly9959]

@@theinvisibleskulk4563 yes and I hope now that more people are on board we can move on from regressing in mechanics to refining them once more. That’s why games like the new Fatal Fury are a breath of fresh air. I think everyone is shocked how mechanically dense it is looking for a 2025 game.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes exactly otter. And you can see this not only in the playerbase, but also the devs themselves. Where if you read the dev interviews of this era, all the devs are directly citing arcade games as their primary influences in terms of game mechanics. But these days if you read dev interviews, like phantom blade zero, they are pulling from more secondary sources and console games for their mechanical design, and it really shows. Like they will take some of the surface elements of DMC, but will completely overlook the core of the style system, which ties all the mechanics of the game together.

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground ​​⁠ you should try out more indie games and more Double AA games because they’re doing a lot better than triple AAA games. I hope you respond.

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground ​​⁠ you should try out more indie games and more Double AA games because they’re doing a lot better than triple AAA games. I hope you respond.

[@OldKingMaple]

Great video, love your takes on stuff, the God Hand review, is how I found you

[@ghuulzzz6314]

Wanted to comment before the premiere to say I’ve been binging your videos since they’re the only interesting thing on this sight at this point. Your perspective is really refreshing and informative.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

What a fantastic comment my dude!! That really made my day :-) ❤

[@zefem]

For sure man no one talks about action game design like this guy especially from a modern viewpoint

[@Busterbalz]

A topic you briefly touched on I would like to see you expand on in a future video is how westerners, both developers and consumers, simply cannot seem to understand beat 'em ups and action games at a fundamental level, both how to make and play them.

[@iwanttocomplain]

You gave me a task to think of good beat em ups and I came up with Fighting Force (Core Design) and Captain America: Supersoldier (Next Level Games). But the later is just Batman: Arkham button mashing really.

[@magicjohnson3121]

Battletoads Arcade

[@doclouis4236]

@@iwanttocomplain The Arkham games are more about keeping a high rhythm and flow with perfecting your combos and mixing up your attack variations. A lot of the challenge modes are about a high score rather than a punishing challenge like most action games. Keep in mind, that Arkham games don't just have one style of gameplay, they also have stealth as another focus.

[@Senumunu]

arcades never gained the size in the west they had in japan. thats the main reason.

[@dukeofhmph6348]

​@@iwanttocomplainFighting Force wouldn't count as a fully western beat em up since EA Victor was heavily involved in its development

[@Gonzalo0079]

The drama with videogames is that as years go by and the tech allows for better graphics, more stabile framerates and smooth netplay, at the same time the devs gradually deprive games of the core content and mechanics that made classic games great. We are getting watered down games and it´s almost impossible to find new releases that have deep mechanics. The disconexion between devs and old school player base gets bigger and bigger and makes you wonder if the devs are actually players or even love good games or have any idea of what made the classics great.

[@jiqian]

The desire for a styling system aspect is so true. The reason why I like Souls games (and the reason I don't care about their more "combat focused" entries past 2) is precisely to "break the game" and find the most pleasant workaround with things, playing it as an RPG and not as an "action game", so whenever I see people complaining that others are doing magic builds or whatever (even tho the "community standard" melee only is really not difficult either, and many times it is even easier), I just think: dude, there are games for that out there already.

[@sibel9272]

While it’s an FPS game Ultrakill is the most recent example of a style system I can think of.

[@MeguhFan]

I love how you broke down the lineage of DMC, and I think it's worth mentioning Mega Man X4. In Cyber Peacock's level, there are a handful of mini levels, and in these levels you get graded B-S (with S rank being the best), and you get special items if you can get S rank on each mini level. Zero in X4 unlocks different saber slashes that effect his mobility (a shroryuken style upward slash and a spinning jump slash, etc.). Getting S rank on all these mini levels feels like playing a 2D DMC prototype. Zero and Dante even have a similar look (longer blonde hair, ret clothing, swords).

[@multistuff9831]

Character action recently can be summed up by parry and cinematic execution animations. Mgr did that and people love it, and even is the path of least resistance through the game on revengeance difficulty where parry damage gets buffed. With recent action games people see bugs and squash them instantly, while dmc has stuff like 475, guard fly, and so on. Modern AAA action wants the player to look at cool flashy stuff while pressing the parry button at the right time allowing for very limited strategies to play with

[@Serek2000]

This is my favourite gaming channel on YT right now. Keep up the good work.

[@BazusoHawk]

I've always felt that Dark Souls did to action games what Watchmen did to comics or the Dark Knight did to movies. I hate having to play hamstringed combat systems just because the this is what the vast majority of modern gamers want.

[@stankosupreme3249]

It's sad really, I feel like the souls-like formula taking over the action game design philosophy has made both action games worse and From Software games worse

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah I think so. It's a diluting of both what makes the souls games stand out as cool (they're extremely fundamental combat which I dig) and character action games (their freeform more technical combat, which I also dig). There is an interesting compromise possible of course, but I don't think modern action games are doing a great job at finding it right now ha. I think the game that stands as the best in-between a more souls feel and a DMC feel is actually Ninja Gaiden.

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground ​​⁠ you should try out more indie games and more Double AA games because they’re doing a lot better than triple AAA games. I hope you respond.

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground ​​⁠ you should try out more indie games and more Double AA games because they’re doing a lot better than triple AAA games. I hope you respond.

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground ​​⁠ you should try out more indie games and more Double AA games because they’re doing a lot better than triple AAA games. I hope you respond.

[@bokkimi2528]

I don't think mechanical complexity hinders sales at all (strictly singleplayer! speaking). No one unfamiliar with DMC looks at the game and goes "damn, I gotta learn guard flying". The fundamentals are very simple - there is not a single instance in the franchise where you must be stylish(combat adjudicators are optional) or pull off some tech. You hit things and they die. Not the most fun way to play but it works.

[@ziontea7045]

Those last two sentences I think are what are important. Depending on how the player engages with the game, if they do the "less fun", "hit things and they die" way of playing, that factors into their experience and opinion on the game. It's the hard part about balancing a game in general. Doing the bare minimum to get the most effective way of playing does end up souring your opinion on the game and it doesn't perform well because of that. Having to really sit down, learn, study, and practice the game so you can maximize the "fun" in the game can also lead to mixed opinions on the game. Depending on the player they might love that fact or dislike it. It's a very tough line to balance

[@bokkimi2528]

@@ziontea7045 True, sometimes(probably most of the times) people don't engage with a game beyond surface level because they simply don't feel like it, but then there are also times where a game really isn't doing a great job at selling its appeal. DMC 5, for example, got better tutorialization, but it still doesn't explain how important and central to the character things like exceed are.

[@ploluap]

i've been really enjoying your content about character action games and beat them up, it somehow made me like those games i already liked even more ! just joined your patreon, cheers

[@NIMPAK1]

People like the idea of being able to express themselves without being judged, but when you think about it performance metrics are also helpful to real life expression as well. If you're just speaking to yourself in an empty room then you're under no obligation to say anything that makes any sense. However, if you're speaking to an audience or your close friends, then suddenly this creates a massive nuance in terms of what to say, how to say it and when to say it. Even if you're going to say something with a "high risk" factor, then you should say it in a way that others will understand it.

[@100hundert]

Fantastic timing, I was just yesterday looking at my incomplete normal mode run of DMC3 and remembered that I always wanted to dive into this game a lot more than I have previously. And I agree, the late 90s and early 2000s were one of the gaming golden eras. The Tetris The Grandmaster series has a very similar overwhelming complexity, that has never replicated in its genre.

[@darthkahn45]

Character action games can be a hard sell when it comes to the core of what makes games like DMC/Bayo amazing. Because that truly unique feeling of exhilaration doesn't hit the same if you don't feel like you really earned it. And realistically you're not gonna start tapping into the games true potential and start really earning that feeling until your 3rd or 4th playthough when you're so comfortable that you know what's coming next and start coming up with game plans for clearing a room with as much sexy style as possible. Taking risks you would have never taken on previous runs for no other reason than "if this works out it's gonna look SICK" But once you break through, the shit can brighten even the darkest mood and made you feel like a million bucks

[@DongsMBM]

for devil may cry 3, if you go even further, the combat becomes a whole other game if you start to do combos on devil triggered enemies. Enemies who goes into devil trigger gains armor points which you can utilise to stylish your combos even more. For example, normally, if you do helm breaker either in the sky or attacking the enemies on the ground, if the enemy doesnt have armor, the enemy will be knocked away. But if you do plan and do the calculations on how much armors the enemy has, you can use moves that usually knock them away without them been knocked away, and that opens up whole new levels of combo routes and moves you can use in any situations. whether you want them to be knocked away or stay where they are, with any moves and anytime. The depth of dmc3 is just insane

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh yeah the devil trigger specific combos are pretty wild, especially since you can use them to build rank in certain sections where it's hard to build rank. One really important aspect of the style system that I think gets overlooked though is how important enemy grouping is to style as well, because you build style rank crazy fast when you hit multiple enemies at once and you also are able to avoid DT enemies in mass, which become wild ha. So one really strong routing option that you see really skilled japanese players do is group kill a bunch of enemies together to avoid enemy DT and then strategically leaving an enemy or two alive to maintain rank on while new enemies spawn in. It's awesome and reminds me a ton of chaining enemies in shmups and beat em ups, which I think is the idea.

[@asdtgh8895]

There's still that Excel file that has all of the armor values for the enemies. Still can't find it, even until now

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground ​​⁠ you should try out more indie games and more Double AA games because they’re doing a lot better than triple AAA games. I hope you respond.

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground ​​⁠ you should try out more indie games and more Double AA games because they’re doing a lot better than triple AAA games. I hope you respond.

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground​​⁠​​⁠​​⁠ you should try out more indie games and double AA games because they are doing a lot better than triple AAA games and no gaming isn’t dying. I hope you respond.

[@JKSmith-qs2ii]

Lovely to hear you enjoyed DMC3. I had assumed you had already played it to the extent you're describing in this video.

[@jonathanmason9697]

This analysis truly answered my soul burning questions about what made DMC and NG so good yet we can barely get new installments. Thank you.

[@Mister_Don888]

DMC 5 was great… That’s all.

[@SunStat-i6v]

No it wasnt

[@googlesword9209]

@@SunStat-i6v You have to try really hard to frame dmc5 as a bad game so i'm curious what your reasons are

[@jayomega2717]

@@googlesword9209 Its boring, too easy, sandbag juggling simulator

[@GeosNotHere]

@@jayomega2717Me when I only play on normal

[@Senketsujin]

​@googlesword9209 I'm trying to figure it out myself. The bad part of dmc5 is V imo and trying to S rank the entire game.

[@018FLP]

Amazing video as always! I'm hyped AF to see the DMC3 in depth video and your perspective about Dark Souls and Elden Ring.

[@TNB12]

Battle Circuit, Capcom's last Beat 'em Up, is actually in a game design sense a 1:1 precursor to DMC's framework. It has a shop between every stage that lets you buy moves with the currency you beat out of enemies, and a ranking system for every boss fight that nets you more currency the faster you defeat them. One of my personal favorite late Capcom arcade games.

[@PRSWAGSTER99]

If we had guys with your mentality all over the gaming space, gaming would be in such an elevated state. You have amazing takes in like every minute of your videos.

[@HereticHydra]

His kind were the norm back in the early 2000s internet especially at shmups & shoryuken before sony bought em out. The problem is that gaming became too mainstream so most of the modern game audience are completely ignorant of arcade mechanics, don't care, and they always label 'arcadey' games as a pejorative. They seem to think that every game needs to be part RPG, even Souls-likes are just action rpgs at best.

[@PRSWAGSTER99]

@@HereticHydra That era saw real innovation between both developers and players alike. Publishers were willing to innovate and players were willing to explore depth. I think the mentality for players still carrried on until the 2010s but the disconnect between the publisher and player just grew way too big. Now this new generation has no real standard to base good games off of. Hopefully channels like this really open new benchmarks of quality games for people.

[@dominiccasts]

@@HereticHydra Souls games really had stronger roots in dungeon crawlers than action games, and while I do think that the combat systems of the later games are more engaging and interesting than the earlier games, it's clear from the ways people talk about Dark Souls and Demon's Souls that the dungeon crawling aspect being woven into the rest of the systems is more the thing that made waves than the combat systems in isolation.

[@Gnostic_Oppai_Enthusiast]

Preach!

[@CyberWoof]

I'm blown away with every video about how deep your knowledge of certain game genres are. You touch on points that many people don't and it's so refreshing! We sorta had this whole discussion on the CAG (character action game) subreddit. Even many of the people there really didn't understand why some of us were saying that Stellar Blade and Phantom Blade Zero were misleading by saying they were similar to DMC and Ninja Gaiden a.k.a. "CAG's". These are people who actively seek out these games and have joined a community dedicated to them who are fooled by marketing and buzzwords. The term itself "Character Action" is nebulous just like most game genre names so I understand why it's easy to get confused. Like what is even an "RPG" anymore? But to bring it back to the main point, there are certain qualities that classic CAG's have that Stellar Blade and Phantom Blade Zero don't. Most CAG's have a dedicated jump button, they grade you on your performance which is based off of move variation (DMC/Bayonetta) or efficiency (Ninja Gaiden), there's air combat, multiple opponents, incredible depth, varied movesets, they're faster paced and most importantly, enemy manipulation (knock up, push away, pull, stun, etc.) and so much more. Not every CAG needs all these things but they should have most of them. CAG's mainly derive from 2D beat em ups and take a lot of inspiration from fighting games as well. Stellar Blade and Phantom Blade Zero not only lack a lot of these things, their main mechanics are blocking and building up stun meters which came from Sekiro. Where were these types of games before Sekiro? No where to be found because classics like DMC, Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta never were their TRUE inspirations.

[@WasabiAwesomeSauce]

I fear the souls genre is going to erase character action games. It’s too mainstream now. Casual gamers probably don’t even know what character action is anymore

[@billyboleson2830]

Sadly it’s too late….They’ve already been erased. Outside of dmc5 and bayo 3 the only character action games that still come out are indie

[@rohandante]

Example?​@@billyboleson2830

[@ziontea7045]

​@@micshazam842exactly

[@DOGEELLL]

Ironic when you see that soulsfan think its a niche hardcore subgenre 🤣 when in reality fromsoft make mainstream stuff not niche hardcore games

[@lotus-E289]

I may be commenting too early, but I agree that modern day Capcom couldn't replicate DMC 3. Maybe this is too narrow of a perspective, but it seems like games nowadays are more concerned with making strong surface level impressions rather than deeper and long lasting impressions on the players. Like, they would rather blow 80% of the budget on graphics and voice overs and try to piece together an *acceptable* game with the other 20% (admittedly, these numbers I'm tossing out are arbitrary, but you get my point). I think the same can be said of game performance. Use the majority of a PS5's computational power to render the pores on a character's face, even if that means the game struggles to run at a stable 30 fps. Embarrassing. Also, the irony of a game trying to stand out while copying everyone else is beyond hilarious to me. Truly feels like a race to the bottom. To use a very dramatic metaphor, it feels like we are watching the gaming industry smother itself to death. Even if it feels like you're screaming into the void, Mark, never forget there are plenty of us out here who are also fucking sick of the status quo. Also, let Boghog out of the thumbnail generation dungeon and tell him to make a goddamn beat em up already.

[@Zetact_]

I think that when Capcom had some players sorta looking at DMC5 and saying it's mashy and then at the same time the mainstream is comparing Stellar Blade to DMC that the business-minded people might say, "Fine, whatever, if people aren't going to appreciate the game design anyway we might as well just follow the trends. We don't need to take 10 years to polish this game like we did with DMC5, just give people cinematic finishing moves, that's fine, look, even Bayonetta does that." I don't think that it's entirely the case with Capcom, even in their bad times they have often wanted to make quality products. But if they're obviously just making a game because it would sell well rather than because someone in Capcom really wants to make a good game (and if they can't wrangle Itsuno back to DMC and just grind out a new game just because of market value that will likely be the case) we might see a new Devil May Cry game that's an effort in "box checking."

[@theredcomet5670]

Capcom has been doing a pretty good job overall in recent years; I'm not too sure where all of the doom and gloom is coming from. DMC 5 sold over 8 million units, which is the biggest financial success in franchise history. Monster Hunter has been doing great and making great games. RE got unfucked. Dragon's Dogma 2 was a pretty great game regardless of what assmad normies crying over not being able to fast travel everywhere might say about it. I'm not too big of a fan of the RE remakes after RE2, but they're still good games. Street Fighter 6 is phenomenal. We even had a good MegaMan game. At this point, I'm not sure what Capcom needs to do to meet the parameters you think they're falling short of. There is a modern audience out there for games like DMC. If there wasn't then DMC 5 wouldn't have been such a success.

[@eddD14]

@@theredcomet5670 add populum argument, sales and popularity doesn’t mean quality, if that was the case then rockstar games would be the best of them all even tho their games are mediocre to bad in almost every area concerning gameplay that is but of course that’s not what people see when they buy these high budget cash grabs, in terms of quality Capcom games have took and step down.

[@lotus-E289]

@@theredcomet5670 I’m not saying Capcom can’t make good games anymore. I’m saying the types of games they are making are far worse in terms of overall quality compared to games like DMC 3 or the original RE4. Put it this way, modern Capcom can make good games. Older Capcom made excellent games. I don’t think modern Capcom can make excellent games that changes the way we understand gameplay anymore. You mentioned Monster Hunter. Remember how revolutionary Monster Hunter was back when it released on PS2? Now, the most recent MH games have waifu bait to grab the attention of normies. But I’m guessing you don’t agree such things are bad because Capcom is still making money with these games.

[@theredcomet5670]

@lotus143_ I don't agree about the Monster Hunter thing because I think those games have generally been improving with every new game, not because they are making money. I would argue that DMC 5 is very close to DMC 3 in quality, and Street Figher 6 is just as good as the fighting games Capcom was releasing in that period. Monster Hunter World could not have possibly been made back then, and it 100% reaches the quality standard of early to mid 2000s Capcom. The mid 2000s was a great time for games, I'm not going to pretend like it wasn't. But we still get games to that level of quality these days sometimes, just not as often. The one thing I'll say is that the original RE3 and RE4 are still way better than the remakes. I really don't know what the hell you are talking about with Monster Hunter in particular. I've never heard that argument before, even from hardcore old-school MH fans, and it's just totally detached from reality. I think you're perspective is pretty narrow-minded. I get the overall sentiment that games were generally better back then, but I really do think that Capcom can and does still release games to that standard sometimes.

[@Dewwwwvwvwvw]

i wish you mentioned how in stylish action games like ninja gaiden/dmc etc, you are always playing a CHARACTER. it is not a blind slate,it is not a character for you to make, it is a very well defined character whos personality gets expressed during combat. this is also seen by the unlock system,you dont need to choose what upgrades you will have at the end,you will always have everything unlocked,and there is just progress there so the game guides you to learn few things at once instead of you being confused about what to learn first. this is very well seen between playing nero/vergil/dante. dante has fun and is crazy during combat, vergil is calculated and accurate, nero is reckless and hot headed(just mentioning some traits,but its to get the point across).

[@connormccarthy2745]

ROYAL GUARD HAS COUNTERHIT PROPERTIES? that is glorious

[@BazusoHawk]

Just Royal Release (forward + Style). It does extra damage on counter hit and you can stack it with devil trigger explosion for even more damage. If you can master the technique it makes DMD a breeze. I still get wrecked though...😂

[@lakshaykochhar6799]

*Batman Arkham intensifies*

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yeah ha isn't that nuts! It's actually really tricky to time because you have to be exactly in the right phase of the animation otherwise you'll get knocked out of it, if it's too early or miss it if your too late. The best place to practice it is right at the start of stage 1 on those three guys at the start.

[@connormccarthy2745]

@@TheElectricUnderground I love the Itsuno DMC games for that, they seem to go farther than any other series when it comes to tiny little mechanical nuances. 3, 4, and 5 are all just packed with stuff like that

[@sibel9272]

What exactly do “counter hit properties “ mean exactly?

[@SenzuZeroZ]

From what I've seen of Phantom Blade, it's more Sekiro if anything. I don't quite see the DMC or Ninja Gaiden inspiration, if it was inspired by Ninja Gaiden it would've had it's own equivalent to the Izuna Drop. This is only my opinion though, if you're planning to get the game then I hope that you have fun with it.

[@DeathXtremeHaseo]

PBZ is a fast souls-like more than DMC, it has a Wo-Long parry (see glowy blue, you parry) with the perfect dodge putting you behind enemy, enemies poise bar raises as they take damage or you perfect block attacks and the same for you which makes it like Sekiro. Main gimmick is weapon switching as the weapons have their own stamina (I remember they said this but can't find vid for the life of me) so you have to master diff weapons but idk if the ranged weps are part of the mechanic or their own thing, It has traversal more like Jedi FO etc. So to summarize, it borrows a lot from diff games but nowhere does it feel like DMC or NG, it has no air juggling, no ultimate technique, no super mode (yet), considering you have [] and /\ combos, you may have unlockable combos but I doubt it (they said 20 weps, I doubt they're gonna make every wep have more than 10 combos....). The best description is really just a faster paced souls-like with a unique mechanic and some minor combos. This falls more like Action RPG or Action Adventure rather than true action games likes DMC, NG etc

[@CYI3ERPUNK]

being GREAT/LEGENDARY is by definition a niche category , such is the way of things

[@TheElectricUnderground]

it is. I'm not too upset by it as all of my favorite genres are past their commercial prime at this point. But I do think there should be more of a push back in the critical review space towards them just being totally reduced to marketing terms ha. Because if the style system, for example, was explained and taken more seriously in reviews, i do think modern fighting games would possibly incorporate its ideas more which would be fantastic.

[@CYI3ERPUNK]

@@TheElectricUnderground 100% agreed

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground ​​⁠ you should try out more indie games and more Double AA games because they’re doing a lot better than triple AAA games. I hope you respond.

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground ​​⁠ you should try out more indie games and more Double AA games because they’re doing a lot better than triple AAA games. I hope you respond.

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground​​⁠​​⁠​​⁠ you should try out more indie games and double AA games because they are doing a lot better than triple AAA games and no gaming isn’t dying. I hope you respond.

[@keolicious]

Excellent video. You've managed to put into words something that's been frustrating me for so many years. Uncalled comparisons with a genre I adore which is in fact on the verge of death right now.

[@TheSweep]

The Greek God of War games were probably the best western CaG-ish style games ever made now that I think about it. Sony did better than most at the time at replicating elements of DMC. But no style meter or any benefits for engaging with combat besides doing same basic combo forever, so most people never really got to dig into the combat system.

[@badpiggy4177]

This Although I do feel like they still managed to make a combat system that at the very least, equals DMC in terms of pure aggression with damaging enemies enough to grab them. That and the overall brutality and scale of the games are still great to this day as well imo

[@RedgraveGilver]

>The Greek God of War games were probably the best western CaG-ish style games ever made now that I think about i Ill say something controversial probably. Its actually DmC: Devil may Cry.

[@onceyougozach2607]

God of War 3 on harder difficulties is very underrated as a character action

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah I've heard a lot of good things about the ps2 era God of War games, I've actually never played them ha. I was a bit closed minded towards western action games during that era (for understandable reasons I think ha) so I never tried them, but I should go back and give them a try, as I understand they have a really fun grab system of some kind? So at best maybe they'll be like playing a grappler in 3d or something ha.

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

@@onceyougozach2607 the one I know who acknowledge god of war 3's potential is the youtuber who made a Ninja Gaiden 2 and 2 sigma comparison. He showed how boring sigma 2 can be with that empty hall. He also told that God of War 3 is the only game that had intense regular enemies similar to Ninja Gaiden 2.

[@NevetsTSmith]

I find this also dilutes the Souls-esque combat formula. Demon's and Dark Souls (Also Monster Hunter before either of them) and even the much maligned DS2 are very much built around high commitment player actions, resource management and more "long term" strategizing, failure sometimes spawning consequences perhaps half a minute later in the same fight. With Blood Borne, it gradually became a faster more reflex oriented game, and then more and more with later games.

[@AshleysBallistics]

I think your spot on about a ranking performance system. Currently players are shunning others that use the "perfume" item in Elden Ring (yes, I know it's been patched) because it's an easy way to win but...who cares there's no reward for playing "The right way". Fromsoft have put themselves in a corner design-wise. The bosses feel cheap hence making players look for OP builds but....the fanboys are shunning people cuz they spent 1000 deaths on a boss. The next Fromsoft games DESPERATELY needs a scoring system 😬

[@Bluesine_R]

They need a good scoring system, and also reward players who actually score well. Have a hidden final level and a true last boss that only become accessible if you have a very high score.

[@321cheeseman]

Frankly, I don't think the mechanics are deep enough for scoring to do much. There's some mechanical variety across a ton of builds, but each build by itself plays very simply compared to a DMC or Ninja Gaiden or Bayonetta or whatever else. Playing "the right way" here isn't pushing the systems to their limits to look like a badass styling on a boss. "The right way" is mostly just hitting roll (or sometimes jump, in Elden Ring's case) with perfect timing over and over to dodge relentless boss attacks, and sneak single hits in when you can, rather than relying on summons or other tools that trivialize some or all aspects of the fight. It's just an entirely different philosophy. It's "never make a mistake", rather than "go above and beyond". I just don't know what sort of interesting play a scoring system could incentivize, this being the case.

[@jurtheorc8117]

@@321cheeseman Look up Clash: Artifacts of Chaos. It's got elements of a Soulslike, but plays more like a 3D brawler/fighter where you can find and assign different martial arts styles and individual attacks to your character. All of which have their own animations and attacks (both the enemies and stance) and utility. Heck, there's unique attacks you can only perform from dodges too, like forwards, backwards and sideways dodge attacks. It's a bit like God Hand in that enemy customization. Not quite as deep or complex but still a good meal to sink your teeth into.

[@pc6963]

I subscribed as soon as you mentioned House of Leaves

[@dominiccasts]

What frustrates me, as a Souls game enjoyer, is that a lot of the souls-likes (most notably IME Thymesia) seem to take Souls games as hard action games with a fixed healing mechanic, and not much else. From's RPGs aren't rooted in action games, they are rooted in dungeon crawlers, and are generally built around mechanics that reinforce a particular vibe (being an adventurer saving the land in Demon's Souls, being a lost forlorn zombie in Dark Souls, being a beast hunter in Bloodborne), and usually build their world around things the player needs to engage with to explore the whole thing (sometimes illusory walls, sometimes special gestures or equipment to access an area, sometimes using certain items you find around the world), and use difficulty to push the player to engage with that vibe and the environment in front of them as if they themselves were there. Trying to make a Souls-like game without understanding the dungeon crawl roots just leads to middling action games with a frustrating difficulty curve that don't have anything else to engage the player with.

[@jurtheorc8117]

Interesting take on the other parts of what make a Souls game and its kind a proper Souls game. Beyond the combat, into the feeling of the world. I wonder what you may think of Clash: Artifacts of Chaos. It's been denoted as a (kind of) Souls-like but it's more of a 3D fighter or brawler where you can find different martial arts styles, and the world is HEAVY on the atmosphere and truly fantastic, colorful, monstrous and bizarre art direction. Folks look like they came from the Dark Crystal or something of the like. The world's not dying or really in danger, as violent as it can be. The only town around is fairly stable despite a theater troupe-themed cult in the mountains and a forest full of folks who willingly went insane. But the queen of the land is sending a bunch of mercenaries after you to take a creature with life-linking powers for her own use. So the story is trying to find a safe place for this creature to remain, or finding a way to eliminate the threat altogether. There's not really dungeon crawling as such, but there is reason to explore. Finding materials so that a merchant can craft new weapons and armor for you, or to find different Artifacts which can enforce a different condition on a fight with sapient enemies. Artifacts are tied to the One Law in the land: prior to a fist fight, you can select an Artifact (which has a condition associated with them), play a short game of dice and take turns placing value modifiers, and the winner spends their artifact to enforce this condition in their favour. But you don't have to engage with it at all if you don't want to. There's nothing like illusory walls or gestures, you're just an older guy who used to be a hermit and has martial arts training going through the land. On the flipside, the game is quite story-driven. There is a companion character and different dedicated cutscenes at different points in the game. The difficulty in Clash isn't too bad either. It's quite managable, though still offers a challenge. Especially so against some particular enemy types and fights where four or even five enemies are put against you. Those are rare, though. Can warmly recommend it.

[@darkmatter7589]

But themesia is not a souls game though it's obviously based on sekiro not souls

[@XenogearsEXE]

Glad to see a video covering this. All the surface level comparisons people are making about PBZ to character action games have been mind numbing.

[@superpnutbutter8608]

The problem many people have with Devil May Cry 5 for the lack of substance is that the game is too easy for the sake of expanding to a bigger audiences - moveset, and characters' strength is not the real problem, reduce it wouldn't make the game better, it's the challenge the game prepare for the player, DMC4 gravity instead of a janky DMC1's, and more aggressive enemies would instantly make the game better; the game already reward player to constantly switch between the air, and the ground because the high damaging moves are on the ground, while the air is safer - DMC5 would easily be the best game in the franchise if the dev didn't hold their punches so much. But the good thing is CAPCOM acknowledge that the players want more challenge in their latest poll, so we have a hope for DMC6 to be the best game in the franchise.

[@samisati2409]

Please keep pissing off the internet. The type of work necessary right now for gaming as a medium to continue (or rather go back to) advancing can only be done by a critic.

[@goob8945]

Yes we could have so many better works if we were more honest about what everybody says is good (or bad!). Channels like this and ThorHighHeels are really changing how people think about games

[@moejuggler6033]

​@goob8945 I love Thor's videos, my favorite video game channel for sure (next to Mark's ofc ^_~). That said, after I found out he plays games on easy, and cheats instead of facing the games' challenges, it really lessened my opinion of his opinions.

[@iwanttocomplain]

The review industry is being torn by accuracy / honesty versus ever more overbearing editors and _their_ managers. For instance, as IGN grows, it's content diminishes rapidly where now it's the most boring front page on the internet.

[@astrea555]

It's insane how bad gaming got because nobody has the balls to actually analyze what went wrong and then actually make a proper review

[@goob8945]

@@moejuggler6033 yes but I feel like he represents a very different side of appreciating games, one not so tied to challenge and reward and more based on rarer aesthetics and honing in on the interesting and weird parts of otherwise bland and bargain bin games. I do agree that games journalists need a higher level of skill to engage fully with a games systems to effectively criticise them, but I also think he brings up a different side to games that cant be quantified with difficulty and challenge. I go to Mark and Thor for different things, I don’t want to box games into a single type of thing. I think that’s reductive but I do understand your point

[@loneblade9447]

Phantom Blade Zero seems like a fun game, but people need to stop comparing it to Ninja Gaiden and Devil May Cry just because you can press a sequence of buttons. The game seems fairly simple from what I've seen of it.

[@ExeErdna]

They're looking at combo videos not realizing how to truly design an encounter that isn't just BS I-frames and hyper armor

[@loneblade9447]

@ExeErdna I noticed Black Myth Wukong has what you just described. Though I think it might work for that particular game.

[@SolidSnake240]

I haven't seen many people compare it to DMC besides the studio head and a few miscellaneous comments. Every major outlet as well as other people keep calling it a souls-like. Even then the studio head just said that its more similar to DMC than it is to dark souls, not that it's a direct comparison to it. Guess we'll just have to wait to see more and play it.

[@Zetact_]

IMO any game with stealth kills pretty much instantly removes its standing to compare itself to stylish action. A mechanic that the developers deliberately put in the game that allows you to skip the combat in a game about combat?

[@loneblade9447]

@SolidSnake240 I'm honestly glad it isn't a souls-like. The market is flooded with that genre and it's becoming tiring.

[@viewtifuljoe99]

That's funny, I was talking with Tan and Paulrog about just getting and starting House of Leaves just before the Galloping Ghost trip. Very cool book!

[@UltimateCerberus666]

thank you for talking about this. Cause I'm so tired of mediocre dribble like phantom blade and Stellar blade trying to use DMC and Nier to market themselves. It's not about whether or not I like it. They're straight up lying

[@daysaverproductions]

I am actually playing the HD collection currently and still really enjoying DMC 1. Bizarrely I started with 4 😂 planning to play them in order as each of them have their own pros and cons. I think we live in strange times where people love super dumbed down games but also crave mechanically complex games. The next character action game that nails both will sell so much better than an artificial injection of ‘99 - 04 flavours. I genuinely think there should be 2 modes for an every game now chill / review mode or deep/normal mode. Just my thoughts and keep up the superb work

[@Senumunu]

The animation of Trish in DMC 4 are so fkn amazing. i was so sad seeing how bad she looks in DMC5. and isnt playable either...

[@321cheeseman]

Purely out of curiosity, what do you consider the pros of DMC2?

[@jurtheorc8117]

For more games in this genre, or otherwise high action combat, have a look at Soulstice, Assault Spy (both already released), Genokids, Gori: Cuddly Carnage and Immortal: And the Death that Follows (yet to release). I enjoyed Clash: Artifacts of Chaos a lot too but that's not quite the same genre or perspective. It's even a different perspective from the previous two Zeno Clash games-. But still a lot of attention and love in that game's combat system, is a bit like a 3D fighter or brawler. Awesome world, art direction, music and atmosphere. Good story too.

[@DerpyTC]

@@321cheesemanit has cool concepts

[@CAVEDATA]

Videos like this are why this guy is such a rare resource.

[@ohpeep3723]

Korean AAA games are copy cats, no new idea whatsoever. They copy the original games to the bone, from enemy move sets to the character fonts. The worst thing is they never credit or compliment ideas to the original creator, they always say something like "this is our idea and we don't try to make our game similar to others" like bruh have some shame.

[@RedgraveGilver]

That's just Korean insecurity against the Japanese lol

[@BigB70]

Fair enough, but 'Lies Of P' is a perfect example of putting your own stamp on an established formula.

[@SLAMTUCKER]

Great video Mark. The point about 6th gen games being focused on that tight technical design is absolutely right. This video is actually kind of a defacto 6th gen vs 7th gen analysis. I think DMC4 was probably more of a victim of troubled HD development that plagued so many Japanese games at the time. The anti-Japanese sentiment was so strong at the time and much umbrage was thrown towards Japanese games unfairly, that along with the fact that DMC4 had many issues that were particularly bad for casuals (backtracking). While not perfect I do feel like much of what was in DMC4 was primed to match and surpass 3... but it just didn't come together. The thing is many of these games did amazing and still have casual appeal. DMC1 and 3 are still really popular with casual players. Melee isn't just the tryhard game, I know plenty of casual fans that say it's straight up the best. While Sunshine did have a lot more tightness to the design the game did have other issues leading to it not being a favorite. F-Zero GX... honestly I don't know why that game flopped so hard. My point being is that these games of the 6th gen generally had a strong casual appeal for many reasons. I don't think it's necessarily a penalty for a game to have a lot of technical depth. I know it's a tired point, but I do think skill floor and skill ceiling is really the right framework here. I honestly think it's the future of video games, having whatever baby easy mode as the "main mode" and the real mode as some sort of 'bonus' or whatever. I didn't watch your Street Fighter 6 video IDK your opinion on it but the game doesn't really seem dumbed down to me except like links are easier. But the game is hugely successful and well liked and I really do think it's the World Tour mode, for better or worse. Anyway I pretty much completely agree with you on this, very insightful.

[@segatouringcar3738]

The fame of "souls-like" set the industry back 30 years. Now it is enough to press a button and it responds to say that it has a good combat system, throwing overboard the great contribution that the Japanese video game industry made to the depth of 3D action games.

[@segatouringcar3738]

And another thing: You play Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, Metal Gear Rising or Bayonetta, and, even though they belong to the same genre, they all play VERY differently, just the opposite of those supposed action games that exist now, where they are played absolutely SAME: weak hit, strong hit and dodge/parry. It's atrocious how 3D action games have been screwed up

[@Zetact_]

Not to mention that just blanket saying, "It had hard combat" without analyzing what about the combat made it hard and whether or not that was actually fun. You could transplant DMC5's Cavaliere Angelo into a Souls game and people would probably say it was a good and hard boss but it wouldn't be nearly as fun to fight as DMC5, because there's no risk-reward element and also no freedom of engagement. Take the very start of the fight, the boss attacks you with a rain of lightning bolts then a series of melee swings. Right from the start you can choose to either run around to avoid all risk, Trick forward to get in the Angelo's face, or try and Royal Guard the lightning bolts. Then for the melee swings you can dodge by rolling, jumping, Trickster dashing or you can parry them either with good timing or with a variety of your available weapons' attacks like Balrog's jabs, King Cerberus' Revolver, your swords' Prop Shredder (etc.) This is all options within the first, like, five seconds of the fight. The thing that bores me about Souls games is that the pattern for like every boss is "avoid the attack and then swing a couple times to punish." it's boring. The primary skill it's testing you on is just patience. Even Donguri can't make Soulslike gameplay look interesting.

[@GoldenDragonMonkey]

Can’t stress how tired I am if “Souls like” I was never a fan of the Souls series (played Demon’s Souls back in 2012) and I couldn’t remain interested. Seeing all these franchises fall back on being Soul clones is beyond frustrating even tho I give the God of War and Jedi games a pass because they do it in a way where it remains fun and slightly still a power trip. I really want to get into PBZ as well as Black Myth Wukong but hopefully soon the industry will take notes from DMC5 and go back to the old school hack n slash

[@segatouringcar3738]

@@Zetact_ "The thing that bores me about Souls games is that the pattern for like every boss is "avoid the attack and then swing a couple times to punish." it's boring. The primary skill it's testing you on is just patience. Even Donguri can't make Soulslike gameplay look interesting." Absolutely TRUE. And it is said that they have depth because of the different builds and shit like that LOL

[@segatouringcar3738]

​@@GoldenDragonMonkey I think it is impossible for the "industry" to take notes, not only of DMC 5, but of anything that is a little far from "fashion." It has been lost, I won't say completely but almost, all that creativity, that "attitude" so to speak, of "the big companies" to create innovative, powerful and interesting things. For these companies, money is the absolute priorit today.

[@theinvisibleskulk4563]

Like I said earlier, I'd love to have you do an in-depth discussion on what good game design is with a cozy games channel, a grand strategy/4X channel, a JRPG channel, a CRPG channel, an SRPG channel, or, if they exist, a sokoban channel. You'd learn a ton, just like they'd learn a ton about arcade-style action games from you.

[@russellgolden7546]

He did an interview with an RTS designer’s channel and it was pretty good! Don’t know how many genre channels can articulate or even understand what’s good design, just what they like. Hell, most gaming channels aren’t even critical. I also don’t know what a good cozy game would be - they all seem like addictive clicker garbage.

[@notnoaintno5134]

@@russellgolden7546 To me a game is cozy if I want to order a pizza and play it for several hours

[@russellgolden7546]

@@notnoaintno5134 so like a movie? ;)

[@ardalanghasemian3658]

Great content as usual, curious to see your take on rpg and gameplay decision side of things too

[@calebhalverson2742]

love seeing people talking about these games, i find myself playing mgr and dmc4 (and recently vanquish!) repeatedly because there's nothing out there like them.

[@Emarrel]

A performance metric is part of the reason I've generally preferred Monster Hunter games over Souls titles, since you're always aware of the time it takes to complete a hunt, giving you that little push to improve little by little. Hell, you've got an entire side mode (arena) that specifically ranks you for your time and may even force you to use weapons you're unfamiliar with. But really, the core issue is that Souls titles have leaned more and more into being action oriented (and the clones lean into this to an even greater degree), with bosses being the main draw and spectacle when their roots weren't all about that to begin with and they've barely felt like they've evolved enough in terms of mechanical complexity and depth to properly facilitate that direction.

[@jurtheorc8117]

There's a game that some have denoted as a Soulslike but is in practice more like a 3D brawler/beat-em-up adventure. Goes by name of Clash: Artifacts of Chaos. Bosses and spectacle aren't really the focus. Zenozoik as the land is called is fairly grounded and a large group of the enemies in the game, the Mercenaries, are proper returning individuals with their own movesets. But they are given to you in different team-ups. From as few as two to as many as four or even five. For example: There's a triple-armed ugly pale blue cat/bat lady with a British accent, who hits fairly quickly, has a lunge move that covers some distance and has a *big* leap to quickly get to you. She's first encountered with an arrogant pudgy long-necked bird man who can hit in a fairly wide range and also has a spinning lunge/headbutt. But in a later encounter, she'll be in the company of a big orange prehistoric rhino man who has some strong punches, a charge that leads into a grab, a bear hug and also a *big* jump that leads into a stomp. And that can change again later on. There's common wildlife of which there can be multiple of at the same time, but all sapient creatures have their own individual presence The main character will learn different martial arts styles and special attacks, of which you can assign two Stances to switch between and three Specials to perform. All stances have their own unique animation movesets and purposes. Boxing's an allrounder, Spear has slow startup but high concentrated damage and the furthest reach of any Stance, Slash keeps a lower profile during movements and hits in a wider area but not as hard, Shadow stance keeps forward pressure and has some energy manipulation moves that reaches further than most stances but not as far as Spear, Mammoth Stance is the slow ungus bungus power stance which focuses on strong elbows, double haymakers and a dropkick, and some more. Awesome art direction and good story too. Can warmly recommend.

[@MetalSlimeDrummer]

@Emarrel You’re here?! I’ve been subbed to you for about a decade, since the old DS1 days. I loved your critique vid on Elden Ring recently. I guess you’re also looking for other genre’s now that FromSoft has kind of played out the souls formula and ended it with the Elden Ring DLC, I know I am. If From doesn’t make a traditional JRPG or something wholly different on their next major release I think they’ll be making a mistake a lot of us OG fans have had enough of their formula its only the newer fans that are discovering their discography for the first time since getting into the series with Elden Ring that I’m really seeing say they want more of the same from FromSoft. Since you’re saying you prefer Monster Hunter over Souls which I’ll be honest I’m surprised to see you say I’m definitely going to have to try to get into MH and I already planned on giving Dragons Dogma a real shot since Capcom are the masters of technical gameplay. I like all genres of gaming but Dark Souls way back in 2012 was something special that went against the grain of the playable movie hand holding bullshit that was popular at the time. Now that souls is the status quo finally a decade later and fully mainstream I’m ready to get back into and focus on all the other genres I loved before souls games came into my life and I’ve been a hardcore gamer since the mid 90s so that includes just about every genre .. atm I’m looking at the kinds of games this guy from this channel is into, and also platformers and of course I’m a traditional RPG fan but hardcore dungeon crawlers is another genre I’m really looking into atm

[@Emarrel]

@@MetalSlimeDrummer I was already burned out on Souls games by the time DS3 came out and considering ER sold more than the entire Souls series combined, I doubt they have much incentive to entertain the idea of designing something more in line with DeS, DaS or much of their older library without radical shifts in their design. I got a real kick out of King's Field but there's no way games like those would see the light of day within the framework of modern day design "sensibilities".

[@Aripuni1]

People say modern game is boring but they dont realize they themself the majority who create the trend to push game dev to make everything flashy with no fundamentally deep mechanic, they are the "casual" who shape this gaming industry

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh yeah its a real balance because if reviews are just vague about what makes devil may cry great (which often happens) than a lot of devs and players are going to assume the surface elements are what people connect with, rather than taking a more holistic approach to understanding the game's influence.

[@Aripuni1]

@@TheElectricUnderground agree

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground you should try out more indie games and more Double AA games because they’re doing a lot better than triple AAA games. I hope you respond.

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground ​​⁠ you should try out more indie games and more Double AA games because they’re doing a lot better than triple AAA games. I hope you respond.

[@jamespaguip5913]

@@TheElectricUnderground ​​⁠ you should try out more indie games and more Double AA games because they’re doing a lot better than triple AAA games. I hope you respond.

[@Cyperstudio]

Say what you want about DmC, dmc 4 is NOT a finished game and the review scores reflect the state it released in

[@RandomGamingDouchebag]

I went through the DMC series awhile back last year and it baffles me how much those games pushed me to engage more with its mechanics in 3 and 4. I really enjoyed the original as well despite how limited it is compared to its successors (quality may vary with 2 & DMC 2013 lmao). I've still yet to complete 5 despite enjoying what I've played but something about it didn't sit well with me and I don't know if I can verbally explain why, so hopefully I'll return to it in the near future. Character action games today that combine aspects of DMC with the souls formula tend to feel too stiff for my liking or completely miss what makes either gameplay format interesting in their respective games but it really is like those games exist to be buzzwords to gain attention from the wider public to be like "hey hardcore gamers, we know what you really want 😎" only to really grab a little buzz on release and only really appeal to those demographics on a surface level and sorta fizzle out after the first few weeks with maybe a small hardcore following, I definitely saw some hardcore DMC fans make the most out of the 2013 game but for as entertaining as that game can be at times, it felt miserable to playthrough despite the good will the definitive edition tried to do with all its updates and additions, sometimes a turd that's polished up is still just a turd. 3 is honestly a lightening in a bottle situation and DMC4, for all its amazing fights and mechanics, under delivers with its lacking content and troubled development in the latter half. I'm curious what you have to say on all the games in the future.

[@meh.96]

I blame Vergil tbh. You can button mashing with him and still beat the game while looking stylish. He is also the character that get copied the most in other game. Nobody ever really tried to copy style switching which would add more depth to a game, instead they all just copy judgement cut.

[@vitormoraes8320]

What a blessed video and comment section. Ive been pissed off by the trend of removing control from the players hands and making them watch long animations everytime one commits to an attack. This curse was set upon gaming by From Software and Monster Hunter. But monster hunter at least attempts to implement techs that allow for player expression. Im tired of floatiness and jankiness in game combat.

[@pandagwadh7013]

Great points summed up in this essay, I’d been wondering why I was suffering from burnout and boredom from some of these new soulsclones on the market and was pretty much wasting my money as I’ve yet to complete any of them And your vid has reinforced what I was feeling when I think of action games I don’t get the same thrill in these soulsclones that I did from titles like Bayo or DmC, I’ve come to realise as much as I’ve tried to get into souls I do find the combat pretty boring where at points I just disengage, which ends me dropping them and then I’m trying to justify my purchase and not feel like I’ve wasted my money lol😅 Here’s hoping the gaming industry and listens to reviewers like yourself and we start to see true successors to the to the NG, DmC & Bayo series

[@jurtheorc8117]

There's a game from 2022 by name of Soulstice that, contrary to what the title may imply, is NOT a Soulslike. It's a proper character action game of which the devs have stated the likes of DmC:DMC, DMC5 and Bayonetta have been inspirations. Though the tone and writing is more in line with Darksiders. Got some rough points but for me (a stranger on the internet) I find a *lot* to love despite those proverbial warts. Perhaps the likes of The Dishwasher: Vampire Smile or the upcoming Enenra Demon Core, Genokids and Immortal: and the Death that Follows may be to your interest too. Perhaps Yasuke: A Lost Descendant and Gori: Cuddly Carnage as well. Clash: Artifacts of Chaos is a prequel to the Zeno Clash series and a a game that people have described as being a Soulslike, but combat is much more like a 3D fighter/brawler/beat-em-up type thing where you can find different martial arts styles and special attacks to assign to your character. 2 Stances to swap between whenever you want (you can switch them out at training dummies for other stance mixes) and three Special/Individual attacks, and there's a mechanic where if you input a new (non-combo string) attack the moment your previous attack lands on an enemy, the animation is cancelled and the new attack comes out faster. it's not a CAG, but it's for sure not like a Soulslike combat system either and does have stuff of substance to sink one's teeth into. All the Stances have proper different animation movesets and purposes, like Boxing being an allrounder, Slash Stance keeping a low more evasive profile and wide swipes, and Spear having slow windups but high damage and the furthest range of any Stance. Can warmly recommend it, and not just for the combat alone.

[@pandagwadh7013]

@@jurtheorc8117 Big Up for the recommends, I'm mostly a console gamer seen quite a few of these are PC so will look to see if they are on other platform Enera looks promising and so does Yaskue, weirdly enough i had seen clash of artifacts on the ps5 e shop can't remember if I had put it on my wishlist, found the artstyle for the title intriguing will have a deeper look into. Your comment also reminded me to finish Soulstice, had deleted it to make way for soem other games but now I've got a larger ssd in the ps5 will redownload it as I was enjoying it, it was scratching that CaG itch for me so thanks for the reminder

[@cancer4cure483]

I'm currently building a prison for game devs, who are making those crappy soulslike games, where they gonna play nothing but Bubsy 3D for the rest of they live. People just mindlessly copying Dark Souls, without understanding core features that made those games special - huge variety of customization, lots of different enemy types and chess like combat, that requires you to plan ahead. But no, people think "two attacks and a roll, this is the shit, it's all that kids want these days".

[@jurtheorc8117]

I wonder what you'd think of Clash: Artifacts of Chaos. People have been describing it as a "soulslike" but I don't think it ever tried to be one. It's got some recognizable elements from a Soulslike, such as looping shortcuts, health flasks and strict checkpoints (at campfires), but those elements can still be found in other games. Meanwhile, combat is more like a 3D beat-em-up. It's a Zeno Clash prequel and seems to have some God Hand DNA. Finding different martial arts styles and individual attacks to assign to your character, to make an own larger style with. - Combo string - Attack from a directional dodge (forwards, backwards and sideways) - Attack from a charge - Attack from a jump - Attack from a run All Stances have the same options but fully different animation movesets, different speeds of execution and recovery, etc. Some stances' sideways dodges keep moving you to the side while others make you return to your initial position. The Mammoth Stance is the ungus bungus heavy power stance, with double haymakers, elbows and a dropkick from the run. Its forwards dodge attack is a heavy elbow push which can do high damage and stun but can be blocked. Meanwhile, there's the Lightning Stance, which is more like Asian martial arts, seems to shoot very short-range energy blasts that hits twice, and its own forward dodge attack hits twice: a horizontal jump with one leg extended, followed by an upwards kick that place you in your original position. Slash Stance hits quick and wide and keeps a lower profile, Spear Stance is likewise hig damage and has the longest range of any Stance but is also very focused and has fairly slow windups, Crab Stance is like a crude grab stance which reaches quite far and can pull enemies closer to you, and more. Plus, things that are always available: - Any of your three special attacks/individual attacks that you have assigned at the moment. A shoryuken, a wide kick from a crouching position, a quick dash leading into a rapid five-hit punch which can be repeated two times, even something as crazy as a teleport. - a mechanic where when you parry, the enemy moves slower for a little bit (it goes both ways) which can also catch and return projectiles, - a mechanic where when you input a new non-combo string move the moment your previous attack lands, the animation is canceled and your new attack comes out quicker - an FPS "super mode" which you can get knocked out of if you're not careful but if you deal enough damage, it leads to a generally unique high-damage Finisher animation - a Guard Meter. It's like a stamina meter but doesn't limit you from doing anything: rather, as long as there's even a little bit left, you only take half the damage of an incoming attack and receive less stun. It runs out from attacking, running and being hit, but refills on its own. One funny thing is that two variations of enemies, the Mercenaries and the Corwids, are all unique creatures. You never see duplicates of them in a battle: it's always the same person you beat up earlier, but instead they appear in different matchups. All of them got their own different attacks, some have a very high jump to get at you, some have rushing attacks, some have different grabs, some throw rocks (or boomerangs). Enemies can damage one another too in normal hand to hand combat! It's not as deep or complex as God Hand and ragdolls rather than juggling, but still a very solid and fun time. Games like that don't appear often. It's a fun time with a fantastic art direction, music and atmosphere and very good story and voice acting. Can very warmly recommend.

[@cancer4cure483]

@@jurtheorc8117 Holy sh*t what a massive reply. I've played Zeno Clash and looking forward for this game, actually. My point is not that all soulslike games are bad by default, it's just that game devs are copying bad thing about Dark Souls instead of good ones.

[@jurtheorc8117]

​@@cancer4cure483 My apologies for the big reply, though thank you for taking the time to read it all the way through and giving a reply back to clarify. One gets enthousiastic about the things they love. Although I am not as directly experienced with Soulslikes as a whole, I think I can understand how frustrating it is to see how new attempts by others, inspired by certain titles that came before, are not as good as they could be. Be it from shortcomings in their own formula, missing things that made it work as well as it did from the inspiration's formula, or otherwise. Is that a good wording?

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

@@jurtheorc8117 those games you mentioned, do they have a demo?

[@jurtheorc8117]

@@soratheorangejuicemascot5809 God Hand, Clash: Artifacts of Chaos and by extent the Zeno Clash games, you mean? God Hand came out way back on the PS2, but the fans are very dedicated and expensive as physical copies may be, I believe they have made it possible to download it onto the computer. Zeno Clash 1 has a demo, Zeno Clash 2 I believe not, but both are quite cheap. Clash: AoC is currently around 9 euros due to t he Steam sale. ZC1 is only about five or six hours long, ZC1 is about eleven or twelve hours and Clash: Artifacts of Chaos is around fifteen. If you're interested in some other games with high action, be it already out or upcoming, the following may be interesting. Not just for the combat alone. - Soulstice (personal favourite. Not a soulslike despite what the name may imply, more like DMC and Darksiders) - Cookie Cutter (2D hand-drawn animated Metroidvania with combat lika 2D beat-em-up) - Genokids (This one does have a demo) - No Straight Roads (short, stylish, boss-centric. Not particularly deep or complex but still a good time) - Immortal: And the Death that Follows (a friend of mine described it as a Hindu Mad Max Beat-em-Up) - The Dishwasher: Vampire Smile (Also quite short, but has two playable characters with different arsenals. Very fast-paced and bloody) - Enenra (cyborg ninja shenanigans) If you decide to look further into any of these games, I hope they may be interesting and wish you a lot of fun on them!

[@chasepalumbo2929]

You should really try Ultrakill. For as much as you talk about loving the style system of dmc3, I feel like not trying Ultrakill is a crime. I would absolutely love to hear your thoughts about it, even if you didn’t like it. Personally, I was definitely skeptical (I thought it would be some neutered version of dmc as an fps) but it really surprised and hooked me. Great video though!

[@billyboleson2830]

Fax, hell Ultrakill even locks content behind style which is something Mark would love

[@christiancabiles8498]

Kinda interesting since the souls games started with clunky movements and movesets they started adding cool moves like weapon arts and etc to the later games which kinda looks like movesets you find in DMC. Maybe they are trying to avoid the combat system to be too repetitive and stale in the new games and now with the dlc some of the new moves have delay or pause inputs like DMC too. But it's still not the same as the souls games since the souls games is still too restrictive on how you control your character it is still too clunky compared to DMC. And that clunkiness is what makes the game hard for some people imo.

[@ryantheradical]

DMC3 is in fact top 5 ps2 games oat.. we’re still talking about this game to this day and it’s refreshing to always play in a world where gaming lacks player agency in the vast majority of modern titles.. when ppl ask me if I play a souls game I say yes.. when they ask which one..? I say Devil may cry 😈

[@rodneyabrett]

I was in college during this era of Capcom and I had a lot of fun with all of these types of games. I was hooked! Even the ones that aren't so well known like Shadow Of Rome and Chaos Legion had way deeper mechanics than a lot of modern games like Stellar Blade. I think a big aspect of those games was the use of strategic positioning and crowd management that's been reduced to a simple lock-on today where it kinda feels like it doesn't really matter where you are in the environment. It's just eye-candy today in a lot of games and not really a key element of the gameplay. Ghosts of Tsushima, while not necessarily that deep of a combat action game, did have a bit of this aspect of positioning when trying to manage large groups of enemies, especially on the harder difficulty settings.

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

I recently played this old school game called Chantelise. Its not that deep of a game but it does emphasis on positioning and hoarding enemies. Sadly I dont see it on most video games I see today

[@jurtheorc8117]

On the PS2 there was this obscure 3D platformer/adventure game with an art direction like Rayman 2 and 3 but a surprisingly in-depth combat system alongside the platforming, called Kya: Dark Lineage. Some people have called it a mini-Tekken. There's a few combos to unlock, different kicks that lead into combos depending on what direction you hold the joystick while attacking, different *grabs* depending on where you stand in relation to the enemy, a jumpover/onto move to sit on an enemy's shoulder and ride them into walls or their allies and some others. Enemies only had three variants (Scrawnies, Grunts and Kronos) but they had a number of subtypes denoted by presence of a weapon and the color of their clothing. This determined the presence of an extra attack (or two) and the speed at which they learn which combos and moves you use the most, and will defend accordingly. So you did have to switch up your moves to get through battles the best. For what it is, it's surprisingly solid. For more interesting action-heavy games in the *modern* day, perhaps the following may be interesting to look into: - Soulstice (personal favourite, kind of like a DMC/Bayonetta/Darksiders type game) - Clash: Artifacts of Chaos (personal favourite, some say it's a "soulslike" but it's more of a 3D beat-em-up/brawler adventure where you find different martial arts styles and all of them have unique animation movesets which do amount to something.) - Cookie Cutter (really love this one though it's not as mechanically complex as the other two. Hand-drawn 2D metroidvania with combat like a beat-em-up with a number of different weapons to find and some extra options. Quite smooth and does feel good) - Immortal: And the Death that Follows - Genokids - Enenra Demon Core - Gori: Cuddly Carnage - Yasuke: A Lost Descendant - Kings of Hell (warning, this one's quite spicy). Hope these titles may prove interesting when you may look into them!

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

@@jurtheorc8117 I know what you are talking about. Its called "Kyah: The Dark Lineage". Its a pretty neat and solid game. Replayed it alot until ps2 broke.

[@jurtheorc8117]

@@soratheorangejuicemascot5809 Ah dangit, i forgot to give the name! Thank you! Nice to see other people who have fond memories of it.

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

@@jurtheorc8117 despite how good the game is, it never got a proper treatment. It really deserves atleast a sequel.

[@joshuamarks4425]

Whelp, Wukong is committing the same sins that Phantom Blade Zero is making, but it ends up trivializing the combat instead by dumbing it so down for the sake of "accessibility" and being mostly bosses that are easy to take down because they want you to be seen as awesome at all times, but with no effort on your end. It is super-linear to a fault thanks to its boatloads of invisible walls, unoptimized as hell, and its design, despite aesthetically being culturally Chinese, is Western as fuck. But of course, because it is culturally Chinese, and due to its shiny UE5 (default-setting) graphics, that it became a massive seller in the mainland because it was appropriated by nationalists over there.

[@kl1kb8]

This video is just godlike. Great analysis!

[@TehListeningPost]

One thing i like DMC over NG is that you lose style rabk if you spam a certain attack. Whereas in NG i spammed flying swallow and izuno drop in order to win

[@RedgraveGilver]

you cannot spam Flying swallow on higher difficulties because there are enemies that would parry it and make your life go half lol

[@jayomega2717]

play on a difficulty above normal

[@TehListeningPost]

@@jayomega2717 if I was any good at my age then I would lol

[@billyboleson2830]

⁠@@RedgraveGilver yeah Instead you spam on landing Uts over and over lol

[@billyboleson2830]

@@TehListeningPost ninja gaiden 3 re is the best one casuw that game nerfed all the spammable moves

[@SuperfluousMoniker]

It's funny this came up because I just started replaying DMC3 because my saves were lost in a computer switch, RIP but now I get to have fun chasing those S ranks all over again. Love your takes man.

[@Elintasokas]

You should be a game designer. You really get mechanics on a fundamental level.

[@CoronelMargarina]

My uncle leaned me his DMC 3 copy right after i received a PS2 as a gift, so it was my introduction to the PS2 era of character action. Needless to say, i have a very high bar when a game frames itself as "like dmc" to the point where i just laugh uncontrollably when i read these things. 95% of the time it's just "we have cool attack animations! That's what dmc is, right?". It took me many years, but when i played Ninja Gaiden Black through Xbox One's retrocompatibility i finally felt like i had found a worthy opponent. Of course i went in with the wrong mind of "is it like dmc?" And got obliterated my first run through. But actually learning how to play NGB and NG 2 were extremely fun. That's when i accepted that we were never gonna get games like these again. Nowadays everything people talk about are graphics, story, yada yada, and gameplay and mechanics feel like secondary, sometimes tertiary. It's really weird, the most mechanically deep games came out during the PS2 era, after that everything started being more streamlined and simple. Games evolved, just backwards.

[@DOGEELLL]

Exactly nowadays you only get movies slop i fckin hate this gen its jsut graphic contest and copy paste with no creativity

[@elseifgames129]

When I first heard Dark Souls described as an action game, I kind of did a double take. In my mind, Soulslike wasn't a type of action game, it was its own thing with its own standards. It would be like calling a survival horror game a third person shooter: correct but missing the point. But then I remember how Resident Evil 4 reshaped the third person shooter and realize these distinctions can be muddy. You've mentioned that this act has been done well before with Nioh (which I haven't played yet), but the idea of explicitly trying to mix DMC and Soulslike design feels like an oxymoron. At least with the base titles, they're mechanics are working at opposite ends. In DMC everything is light and fluid because you're a god among men. In Souls things are heavy and committal because you're a man among gods. In most character action games the world is a thing to be saved, in most Soulslikes the world is already dead, and you're there either to salvage what's left or put it out of its misery. (Sekiro seems to break this pattern but once again I haven't played it yet) Of course I realize I'm painting with an incredibly broad brush, and skilled designers can probably marry the styles well. I guess if I had to put a point to this ramble, it's just that I like it when it feels like a game was designed with a very specific thematic experience in mind, and you can tell when it wasn't.

[@LightningListener]

Facts

[@salsamancer]

Sekiro is kind of like if you tried making Arkham Asylum using the Dark Souls engine. It's a lot of fun but it definitely pigeonholes you into a specific way of playing.

[@jurtheorc8117]

Can recommend to check out Clash: Artifacts of Chaos. It's got some things that one may recognize from a Soulslike (campfire checkpoints, flasks, structure with many shortcuts), but combat is more like a 3D fighter or brawler where you can find and assign your own martial arts styles. Kind of like God Hand. But you're not a proverbial "god among Zenos" and neither are you a "Zeno among gods". You're essentially just an older guy in a land full of freaks and monsters that make up the population. A very well-trained guy, granted, but that's not a pass to victory. Throughout the game you unlock different martial arts styles with their own utilities and completely different animation movesets from one another. - Boxing is the allrounder - Slash Stance keeps a lower profile and hits in lower-damage wide sweepnig hits. Fairly quick. - Spear Stance has slower movements from boxing, but also very high-damage focused attacks and the furthest range of any Stance. - Mammoth is the unga bunga slow heavy damage stance but still has some fast moves. Focus on haymakers, elbows and a dropkick. - Shadow Stance has some short-range energy manipulation and puts forward pressure - Crab Stance reaches out a bit farther from most styles and pulls enemies closer to you and more. Neither is the world in great trouble or already dead. There's only town, one Law (which is a mechanic you don't really have to engage with it if you don't want to), there is danger from a theater-themed cult in the mountains as well as a forest full of folks who decided to go insane. It's not even a blight or corruption or anything, they simply decide to cast off any psychological and mental limits and then decide that one single thing, an obsession or fetish, will give their life meaning. Like crushing pigeons to make them bleed, turning things upside-down and inside out, walking into a straight line forever, wanting to become invisible and so you claw out the eyes of anything that can see you, etc. Zenozoik is a violent land, but things are fairly stable. The main conflict is the queen sending a band of mercenaries after you because you're safeguarding a creature with a magical life-linking ability. And a fun thing is that this band of mercenaries are unique from wildlife and biome-exclusive enemies. You never see two of the same three-legged blue moose men, or the Southern-accented goose lady with the boomerang, or the toad in a barrel who slaps you with a frying pan, or the moody prehistoric orange rhino guy. They're all unique and nobody ever really dies (except a grandpa at the beginning). But they return at different points in different match-ups. Now suddenly the powerful Platybelodon giant who throws boulders fights alongside the aforementioned moose man, who himself is already quite strong and also fast. Or perhaps the orange rhino guy who has deceptively high jump abilities to stomp with, is paired up with the fast, leaping, triple-armed bald ugly cat lady, who is fairly speedy and similarly has a very high jump. Enemy team-ups like these can range anywhere from two to, in rare instances, as many as four and even five. Artistically the game's also VERY strong. Fantastic art direction, character and world design and atmosphere, and a good story and voice acting. Very warmly recommend it.

[@elseifgames129]

@@jurtheorc8117 Oh yeah, heard about Clash and it's been on my wishlist for a while. A lot of the stuff in that post wasn't on my radar, though, so my interest is further piqued.

[@jurtheorc8117]

@@elseifgames129 I'm glad to have raised your interest further! Clash is one of my favourite games and though sadly sales weren't quite what the devs would have liked them to be, it's always sweet to see new people wanting to give it a shot. Hope you'll enjoy it very much when you may get to it! If you're up for hearing about some more recent/upcoming high action games, I can give a little list of seven or eight titles or so.

[@tydavis1795]

🚨PARASOCIAL MOMENT🚨: I played DMC3 from Normal through DMD over the pandemic and loved it, but was always a bit disappointed because I was under the impression you and boghog thought it was a “solved game” or something. However, as you pointed out, Mission 2 combo exhibitions are not how you evaluate its depth. Don’t think I’ll ever come around on DMC4, though. Great video!

[@boghogSTG]

Oh man DMC3's scoring is crazy and holds up shockingly well afaik. You get right on the edge of breaking it and then it somehow always pulls you back & forces you to play properly. Like if you think ok so I can get SSS from RG + taunt + enemy step in neutral and then get 8000 style pts... NOPE, tough luck. It's very hard to get past S rank with just those 3, and it's time consuming so you'll miss the time bonus. Maybe there's something else that could help climb to SSS in neutral but the system fights you each step of the way

[@notnoaintno5134]

To me, arcade games CAG etc are more "video gamey" while modern AAA titles like Elden Ring are trying to be more "cinematic". You can't really talk about DMC's advanced points system mechanics with your coworkers like you can talk about le epic boss in Elden Ring.

[@azekeprofit]

Devil Mary Cry 3 style ranking formula is actually too over-designed, overcomplicated and straight up bad and counter productive to stated goal of action games -- to reward cool action. The way it is designed -- it is *always* better to run past small gaggles of enemies because you won't be able to beat enough style point off them and when total of that encounter gets committed into level formula -- you average tanks. The formula itself was researched and reverse engineered somewhere in one of these gamefaqs you showed -- author specifically went into detail how style points are collected in Heaven and Hell mode (he discovered that shots are worth 1/4 of melee hits, how parries and Devil Trigger Explosion affect points and so on). And these peculiarities' and quirks add to already complex linear algebra-tier formula, only weighing it down. At least you can still go full grug-berzerk mode and get a decent style points as opposed to say DMC4 formula which completely fails at measuring "action" part of action game, literally preferring counting how many chairs players destroyed over his combat -- you can as stylish as you want -- but if you miss one chair -- kiss your S goodbye. This is a fundamental failure of what ranking system should do and that's why Viewtiful Joe formula (that was later taken into Platinum Games with Kamiya) is so much better because it doesn't punish exploration and doesn't force speedrun on the players. Also weird how you don't mention Capcom's Mega Man X which i think is a an one of first examples of adopting style ranking system into a specifically single player game.

[@Sir_Robin_of_Camelot]

Idk if you've spoken about it, but the Tony Hawk games make for a very interesting score/style system discussion