Beauty is Primary for the Perception of Truth | Jordan Peterson, John Vervaeke, Pageau

[@joer9156]

The point about the primary of beauty is "everything in its right place." Therefore it's both a clue to how to order the world, and a glimpse of heaven.

[@abelgeorge5882]

🎉

[@gregorywitcher5618]

“Everything in its right place” is my favorite Radiohead song! It is the first (primacy) on the “Kid A” album.

[@InnovativeSaint]

beauty is order, "Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined." (Psalm 50:2 KJV)

[@jeremyfirth]

"Everything in its right place" is also the traditional definition of justice.

[@littlealisa]

“Beauty is when appearances disclose reality.”

[@jansvec4720]

"Right." - Jonathan

[@kyletucker6508]

really great stuff here as i’ve struggled personally with pornography and virtual reality playing a part in that has really gotten me into some deep and often times dark philosophical thought patterns/fears. Hearing about how it is a smoothing of reality/beauty was very much what i felt in my heart but needed put into words. Hearing them talk about the revelation of beauty only comes to the one who receives it and not to the one who bases beauty on their relevant perception of it was so good. Beauty grips you and will take you. Do not let the arrow be pointed inward. Find the calling of love in your soul. Let it guide you to true beauty. regardless of what that beauty is, whether it be your partner for life or buying a painting to put on the wall of your house.

[@srslurp5579]

Thanks for sharing. The ugliness of pornography being misinterpreted, at first, into the revelation of beauty, tends to only aim inward toward self destruction. It consumes rather than elevates and is the exact anthisis of beauty. Beauty is revealed to the individual, not a revealed from the individual.

[@06rtm]

True is when you aim at the target, Good is when you hit the target, Beauty is the image of the target. Love is the bullseye

[@novaimperialis]

So true is then that which is constant. Good is that which exists and has presence. Beauty is then that which you can grasp. And love is that which you can hold. And the underlying idea I think that is that if you can hold it then that means that it should have all the above as well. Another way to put it I think it is this way: Truth is the process that presents the path. The path is constant and it goes on without leaving you to fall as the road doesn't end before reaching the destination. Good is the impact. The impact is present and you can see the effects based on that which you have chosen. Beauty is the result. The result can be grasped and you can see the value of that which you have chosen. Love is the transformation. The transformation can be held and you can see how it relates with you. In the same way we can see the opposites as well or the lack of those qualities as they all denote presence: The lie is the lack of path or the path or road that ends before reaching the destination leaving you lost. Bad is that which has no presence and effects since there's no path to it and so it doesn't exist. Uglyness is that which is distorted and can't be grasped. You can't grasp it since it isn't even there. Hate is that which is out of reach. The destination that can't be reached since there's no way to get to there. By the same token, hate, would be the culmination of all the above and would contain all of them. What you say?

[@JosefSvenningsson]

My wish is that I some day will understand this.

[@alidaraie]

Listen to it carefully several times, rewind if necessary and try to find the meaning of (key)words you don't understand.

[@jaguillermol]

@@alidaraie yep! That is what so many people fail to do. "It is too complex for simple me" look up the words then! It's the same process as learning a new language! You didn't understand a paragraph or sentence? Because you misinterpreted or didn't understand a word or a couple of words.

[@marlenecid7645]

This conversation/exchange is beautiful

[@bro_liv]

That's just what I needed at this moment. It's all so encouraging for artists, thank you so much

[@bradspitt3896]

We are afraid as we should be: "For such efforts are required at every stage of the ascent, for even to the end we must constantly mistrust the possibilities of our own freedom, according to St. Isaac the Syrian." - Lossky

[@marlenecid7645]

The excitement in Vervaeke's eyes as he explained that is beautiful :)

[@josephtravers777]

Thank you for pulling this cut from the full interview. John is always interesting and nails perception in the ontological sense. My imagination constantly wanders during these discussions looking for past experiences and connection in the moment. Your work is great stuff 👍

[@jessegonsalves5412]

Dr. Peterson. You have a habit of agreeing verbally when the other speaker is delivering his/her conclusion and I miss the "punch line"/conclusion. I love you dearly and pray for you as often as I remember to as a side note. It's really not a severe criticism I just feel I'm not the only one who misses out on 'punch lines'/upshots.

[@leondbleondb]

I agree

[@thenowchurch6419]

That is because for Dr. Peterson, it is all about him and his realizations.

[@MiddleEarths]

Yes, a bit like.. his enthusiasm with the discussion he can't help himself, interrupts/emphasizes at the peak moment.

[@jaguillermol]

Jordanetics. Read it.

[@austin0_bandit05]

That's just how conversations go imo. They say something that makes you think of something that you just have to say. Its the push and pull of discourse

[@elusivemayfly7534]

I love this talk. I feel these men are gracious to invite us into such wonderful conversations

[@RodrigoMera]

This clip is pure gold guys. Thanks for sharing!

[@parker.simmons4]

This clip has an incredible amount of value packed into it. After about the 10th listen i am getting a bit of a grasp as to what is going on😂

[@andrewsemler4447]

I find this Jordan Peterson so much more interesting and appealing than the current one.

[@brendantannam499]

I love to hear these ideas articulated so well. John, I think, gets more Blakean as time goes by. The root of these spiritual/philosophical themes seem to be Gnostic more than anything.

[@reverie4632]

Yet another amazing thumbnail. On par with the butterfly one about evolutionary transformation.

[@SeekerAppleSwordSerpent]

I recognize that this conversation was real.

[@user-wo5bp2oi5c]

I would like to see David Bentley Hart here. 🙏

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

Yeeeees!

[@henrique5231]

Why does it look like Pageau was green-screened in the room? I can't unsee it! 😂😂😂😂😂

[@jaguillermol]

9:27 Nice. So gratefulness and beauty are very similar. Because if you force yourself to be grateful without God, it has no real meaning more than..."You should be a good atheistic buddhist and be grateful! Because it is good!" But if you believe in God and let the gratefulness strike you at those moments, it works as a direct link between you and God

[@jacobbeers5889]

"Beauty is when appearance discloses reality."

[@kickboxer1391]

I would actually substitute the word “appearance” for “senses”. Appearance is based on your visual perception but how about listening to a piece of music? dancing to the beat of your own drum? the taste of quality food?. Realness can be experienced through more then just appearances. I know everyone probably agrees with this but I like to nitpick lol.

[@youbetyourwrasse]

The story of JBP's mum is telling. The beauty frightened her, but *just being in it's presence* changed her ability to SEE TRUTH. Do you see? A lovely bauble carved by a master craftsman, lovingly painted with intricate glimpses of tiny hidden forest animals, given to a child, can hold that child in truth. Allowing them to maintain God given discernment. IT'S THAT SIMPLE. It is the same with beautiful music,. But the workhorse of the Love Revolution are words in all forms. (Of course God made sure that what people need was never out of reach of ANYONE.) - EYE SEA EWE DEER WON - Today with folks waxing profound about a beige canvas at the MOMA; monuments of steel and stone blighting the world with verticals teasingly places off of vertical, causing local citizens to experience a vague nausea, the pattern repeats. Until ugly is what the world loves. Give them exposure to Beauty, and subliminally they will change. It's GOD PLAN. Now go make beautiful things! You beautiful bunch of creatures!

[@Bartisim0]

Beautiful

[@b.melakail]

So when are you having a discussion with D.C Shindler? :)

[@mondopinion3777]

Another approach to this question is that in particle physics, reality appears first as potential, then becomes actual. The potential stage has different possibilities of actualization. The actualization can be affected by the presence of the observer. In this context, what is grace ? For me, our desire for truth may simply be a built-in means of survival, by making better maps of our world.. (The ideal which these thinkers are calling "truth" is something greater and should be distinguished by a different name.) The desire for "goodness" likewise can be seen as an evolved urge to maximize peace and well-being in one's group and surroundings. (And the greater ideal of "goodness" should be distinguished from the moral laws which facilitate group harmony.) But what is the third -- what is beauty ? Why does beauty emerge from the chaotic iteration of the Mandelbrot sets, and the same beautiful patterns emerge in the natural world ? And why do we respond to it as we do?

[@jaguillermol]

We respond to it as we do because it is beautiful. Beauty calls to us, like John said, we don't call to it because then we would be trapped. What does beauty call to in us? It calls to love. Love makes what is outside of us real. Beauty uncovers what is real behind appearances. Love makes it real. They are very tightly connected. Maybe they are even one. I would say beauty is the color or shine of love. Hebrews 1:3 "he is the radiance of glory" where glory refers to God and he refers to Jesus. And God is love. Then Jesus is beauty. I wish I had been more mature in my teenage years and delved into poetry, because damnit I would need that skill of expressong myself now in this point of my life.

[@jaguillermol]

I think the Mandelbrot set is the ultimate proof that chaos doesn't exist, that chaos is just a mental concept that we have invented to refer to non order, but God made everything so there exists no non-order. For the Mandelbrot set you need imaginary numbers, which don't exist in reality, they only exist inside our minds, an even there we cannot grasp them except play around with them on paper. Because they are non reality. The Mandelbrot set takes place on a whole plane of imaginary vs real numbers. This plane is impossible. And yet the Mandelbrot set takes this imaginary two dimensional plane and turns it three dimensional. But just as imaginary numbers are unreal, only exist as mind constructs, the imaginary plane is unreal, it only exist as something we draw on paper. But the imaginary plane as we draw it on paper is even less real than the imaginary numbers, because with the imaginary numbers we can see by their structure how weird they are that they are ungraspable, while the imaginary plane represented on a paper is a blatant lie, it's not even represented correctly, and it makes us forget in our minds what it is we are really dealing with. And still, from this derivative of something unreal, we enter a third dimension when we apply the Mandelbrot set's formula on it. A third dimension that only exist in our minds when we look at the unreal and unrepresentative imaginare plane. With our minds we take the derivative of a derivative of something unreal and we create an experience of something that is more real than even real numbers and geometry. Because the Mandelbrot is not only there and you enter it, but you see it in nature. I think the Mandelbrot set is the "spirit world" or God or the unconscious mind, because you enter through your mind.

[@vidaripollen]

Satyam,Shivam,Sundaram

[@andrewfavorov4579]

I wish JP would allow people space and time to finish their quite intriquite thoughts.

[@heatherwhitehead3743]

It is! But don't deceive yourself. One serves the other. If not you find yourself in territory that can deceive.

[@iphang-ishordavid2954]

Jordan is always eager to talk😁

[@brendantannam499]

Yes indeed, while listening has great value too.

[@iphang-ishordavid2954]

@@brendantannam499 totally agree 👍, his constant interruption seemed to always cut the flow of thoughts

[@Sclunger]

right

[@MiddleEarths]

Could the "smooth" be soul-less?

[@sdrc92126]

The Chinese room argument

[@an3897]

Mysticism

[@an3897]

What's beautiful is not necessarily true

[@lisaonthemargins]

You get a superficial kind of beauty yes, but I don't think that's what they're talking about.

[@an3897]

@@lisaonthemargins No, i was not talking about that.

[@thenowchurch6419]

What is truly beautiful is necessarily true though. Only a sufficiently virtuous soul can tell the difference between an illusory beauty and the real.

[@jaguillermol]

@@thenowchurch6419 But something that has an illusory beauty is not really beautiful. It is pretty basic to come to that conclusion about something. I don't mean you, but the person you are responding to.

[@heldivapanjaitan947]

Pornogrpaphy removes all the mystery

[@elizacragun4697]

I agree that true understanding of the world around us reveals truth to us (the nature of reality), but I think bringing in the term "beauty" might muddy this concept. "Beauty" is such a transient thing, and it can mean a completely different thing from one person to the next and from one context to the next and from one decade to the next. Beauty can be found in everything (or in nothing). It's very much dependent on our perception. Although there are a lot of things that people would pretty much universally agree have beauty.

[@cnote3598]

The uncovering of a cabal is true. Cabal comes from kabalistic And that leads to the tribe

[@thenowchurch6419]

Can you please provide some evidence that Cabal comes from Kabbalistic?

[@cnote3598]

@@thenowchurch6419 its in the word dude ,..abahahahahahahahahhaahahhahaa .. i cant believe you just typed that

[@thenowchurch6419]

@@cnote3598 A similarity in the sound of words proves nothing. I can't believe you are that childish.

[@jaguillermol]

Cabal in spanish means the top or the most, of something. Most english words come from spanish and german.

[@Molotov49]

These guys have baby brains. You could dangle some keys in front of them and they'd burst out in tears about how profound it is that keys are used to open doors.

[@izacmanda8448]

Then don't watch

[@achilleuspetreas3828]

So because they can see things that you can't aka that you can only see things at face value, they have baby brains? I think it's the other way around, malaka

[@leondbleondb]

How cynical.

[@brendantannam499]

Go away.

[@josephtravers777]

You're stuck in the mud. Call the tow truck.