Pandora's Box: Jonathan Pageau and Dr. John Vervaeke Discuss AI, Hope, and the Biblical Worldview

[@PeterPohl-uq7xu]

Dr. Jon...your precision is always intimidating, and Jonathan's ability to undertake the real-time realigning of his thoughts with your sharp correction is beautiful. These are the sort of conversations I long to have but apparently have not earned yet.

[@rainking50]

What an incredible time we're blessed to be living in. Your comment moved me. If you're open to it, let's explore finding time to have a conversation. Wishing you well...

[@CrystallineWyvern]

I agree with Paul that this may be you and Jonathan's best conversation yet, John. It was beautiful; I remember everyone around me in the audience in Chino smiling wide with joy by the end. You've both been and continue to be a immeasurable blesssing and beacon to so many people. Thank you.

[@AudioPervert1]

About the downside of “new technologies, that are presented as inherently good or emancipatory”. He argues all such technologies, for decades have been the outcome of computational thinking - “of which we are all guilty”. James Bridle stands out for saying “Technology is and can be a guide and helpmate in thinking. Computers are not here to give us answers, but are tools for asking questions.” He warns further that “those of us who have been early adopters and cheerleaders of new technologies, who have experienced their manifold pleasures and benefited from their opportunities, and who have consequently argued, often naively, for their wider implementation, are in no less danger from their uncritical deployment…” In this spirit, we find ourselves today connected to vast repositories of knowledge, information, text, images, sounds and what-all-else-digitized. But have we learned any better to think? Make better decisions? If we look around the world today, the answer would be negative. In fact, the opposite is happening, as all the knowledge, abundance, speed and volume which was supposed to enlighten the world “in practice is darkening it” writes James Bridle. He encapsulates with irony, about the the abundance of information “coupled with the plurality of worldviews now accessible to us through the internet are not producing a coherent commonly shared reality…” Oh! but, isn’t this is also the age of “post truth” and the “woke”. Techno serfdom!

[@chrisc7265]

I like how they seem to deeply care about each other as people, and also hold genuine interest in the evolution of each other's thought I didn't get a ton new from this convo, but it's a delight to watch just on a human level

[@BrendanTietz]

Your work fundamentally saved me from severe depression. It was my first catalyst towards happiness. You were a bridge towards my later found spirituality but without that gentle medium I never would have found my belief in god. I would have never found a profound sense of connectedness and purpose towards life. We need gentle bridges that allow man/woman to find their individual sense of god or purpose whatever that may be. I fundamentally believe all individualistic sense of purpose or god is the same and that’s the tricky part, we need someone gentle to point to the areas we can look rather than someone demanding this is the way. I signed up for your patreon! I’ll support your work until your career is retired.

[@outoforbit-]

Great to see and hear these two Canadians in conversation I love listening to Varvaeke as he is without presumption and is open to other ideas. Pageau is a delight, just to hear him building up and building up. These men are careful thinkers who filter and refine their ideas, in their respective disciplines, through love.

[@dalibofurnell]

It is almost as if this is a historic conversation. An important mark or stone or step towards a better future that has already begun. A pretty solid,original,creative and legit dialogos. For sure though- this conversation gives hope- a non toxic hope. A type of hope that can form part of the foundation of the ground of being. ❤ well done thank you both, Bless your hearts 💕 Thanks John, for all your amazing work. You're making a real good difference in the world. The end of this made me shed a few tears, especially when you thanked Jesus for being one of your sages- i think that is so beautiful, especially with your background with Christianity- it is profound. The progress you've made is inspirational and you set such a good example. Wow ❤

[@Demosophist]

This is an hallucination. The rationale has to do exclusively with imagination which is misidentified as memory, and they even go to the extent of suggesting that you can *remember the future*. It's a convoluted exercise in self-deception. Our future is to remember what has already happened to us that we have suppressed as a species. Revelation is the revelation of memory. I don't mean anything fancy or mind twisting about that. I mean that it literally happened to our distant ancestors and they have told us of it in the form of myths, narratives, and literal images. And this didn't happen so long ago, less than 12,000 years.

[@JustJohnForNow]

This is one of the greatest videos you guys have ever made and I’ve been watching since 2017.

[@timcrespin3030]

Ohh myyy gawd. My two favorite thinkers and talkers in the world right now! It's a gift to witness their intellectual and personal chemistry together. Elation of the brain so great it lifts the heart too.

[@vevrvivnv]

For those interested, Paul Kingsnorth puts forward his take on these subjects in his presentation for Unherd entitled, _"What Is There Left To Conserve"_ quite brilliantly. I highly recommend him, any of his work really.

[@scythermantis]

absolutely... I watched that same video tbh I like these two as well but ... Kingsnorth's the one I'd really TRUST on this issue... not JP whose own brother-in-law is saying things like "In 5 years all of our best friend's will be a robot"

[@carolspencer6915]

Good evening John and Jonathan Thankyou for this shared conversation. I think learning to Meditate through Our karma to discover our wisdom is valuable lessons to adopt and practices to nurture. Thankyou both for your shared work. Inspiring brain gym. 💜

[@eisvo21]

Incredibly brilliant Jonathan Pageau, Thanks for telling the truth both of you

[@nikki-wh5cn]

The more technologically advanced we become the further away we are from our origin .. our connection to all human beings is suffering- our story may be different whether it’s abandonment, shame, abuse etc.. but we all have felt it no matter what generation you came from and there is only one in human history who has felt all of that.. the one who defeated death and willingly went to the cross for all of mankind

[@markmitchell8374]

what a wonderful conversation of respect and appreciation....let me summarize.....mission(the good/sacred)....tribe (the cult)....identity(peace, who I am )...thank you

[@paulhardin9731]

This is the kind of discussion I always want to have with my friends at the bar. But, after a few drinks it always devolves into chaos. It looks like just drinking water facilitates deeper discussion lol

[@rfphill]

I wish I had friends like you that want to go deep. I can never find any. They are willing, after a few beers to go deep personally but none that want to let our ya ya's out philosophically.

[@cakepastawhey5095]

Bars are a hard place at many times to have deep conversations. Mostly focuses on their "little problems" which are both small and large at once.

[@peterweston1356]

I think there is a sweet spot…just enough alcohol…😳😂

[@kylebrady3651]

Weed

[@peterweston1356]

@@kylebrady3651 Kyle that’s not nice 😂

[@malcolmclarkson4680]

Thank you Johnathan and John so very much!

[@Beederda]

This conversation resonates with me quite well I appreciate your time And your incredible hard work ❤🍄

[@matthafer2415]

Very excited when the conversation turned to the topic of Hope. For personal reasons I'm currently working on a short discourse in defense of Hope. In the Catholic church's catechism the absence or excess of Hope is described as a sin. This is a clearly Aristotelian model where the desired action is the mean between two extremes. I argue that now as much as ever the wise application of virtuous hope would serve Humanity quite well. I believe Goethe had it right," in all things all things hope is better than despair."

[@mills8102]

This is one of if not the most impactful conversations I have ever witnessed. The box is certainly open. Lets build bridges and not walls.

[@gregorywitcher5618]

But Eden is a WALLED garden!

[@mills8102]

@@gregorywitcher5618 Is Eden an option? Recall the big scary angel with a flaming sword? Old paradigm.

[@TaaviTuisk]

Too late, bunkers in remote areas are needed now.

[@mills8102]

@ttsnews8035 The conversation in the video?

[@kristenswensen6451]

The Incarnation destroyed that wall. The veil is torn open

[@JordanGreenhall]

Extraordinary.

[@kevin_heslip]

Love these conversations between the two of you

[@Surveilancepredators]

As long as we are doing our part to help eliminate the suffering for others, we will be oriented with no worries.

[@markupton1417]

These are ALWAYS so much better than when John just has on guys from the Vervaeke Foundation.

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

Very excited to watch this

[@8thdayindependentfundament454]

Ahem cuzin 👍

[@myshkakozlovski802]

Acceptance is surrendering to what is. Forgiveness is surrendering to what was. Hope is surrendering to what will be.

[@malcolmclarkson4680]

10 years ago I met a woman while driving cab. I became her go to driver for weekly errands. A couple of years ago while dropping her off and assisting to her front door I asked her, do you believe in G-D, she smiled slightly and kindly said: "There must be some one, because someone has been taking good care of me for a long time" Holly Human, Batman, that was Stunning. Just last month I visited her on her 106th birthday still living in her own home. Thank you John for all your passion, work, and through lines as well as all the women and men that you journey with and afford me the opportunity to "meet" in "Dialogos" Eternal Gratitude

[@michellestevenson8060]

We must leave the paradigm agreed, very well done gentleman

[@zachmccaleb7281]

What does that mean?

[@DFMoray]

This is great to fall asleep to.

[@TwoKnowingRavens]

The fact that I know conversations like these are not at the top of the list of what guides our society is why we are falling so quickly into an unrecoverable morass of self worship and moral relativism. God help us.

[@Sharing13]

I wish I had friends who talked like this

[@BlueEternities]

These two have proven to be such a fantastic dialogue. JP is slightly more open and lets that trickster out, and JV always helping reign things back toward the scientific, but both clearly observing the same things from their own perspectives. Beautiful watching humans dance around in Dialogos, witnessing source from two coherent angles.

[@garyfrancis6193]

People can’t be a dialogue.

[@BlueEternities]

@@garyfrancis6193 dialogue dī′ə-lôg″, -lŏg″ noun A conversation between two or more people.

[@KingNigelthegreat]

youre liars. dialogos is double binding circling and lynching to iT. then you dream youre talking to it and hermes and its talking to you …3Then four great beasts came up out of the sea, each one different from the others: 4The first beast was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man, and given the mind of a man.

[@ShadowMan547]

Great John, thank you.

[@mwinsatt]

Amazing conversation!!!

[@EtherealMaryJane]

Very appealing topic.

[@BlueEternities]

Food for the mind and the soul. Helping reconnect egos to souls is what will save our society methinks.

[@pj9591]

Love the dialogue and the sincere concert of John Verveaky which I dearly love. John's full commitment to dealing with the meaning crisis of the West is palpable. I would suggest Wilber's book: «Up from Eden". A Transpersonal View of Human Evolution could resolve the dilemma that renders this dialog painful. And to a degree unresolved for John, I think?

[@CaesarReb]

Love Wilber. But I haven’t read for awhile. John is aware of him.

[@pj9591]

@@CaesarReb Yes John is aware of Wilber model of the nature of beings.

[@ibelieve3111]

Thanks

[@silverback7348]

This conversation takes me back to JBP’s Maps of Meaning with Left and Right Brain integration of the new experiences of the wilderness to grow and God being the North Star and his Commandments maximizing [chances of] survival and reintegration by creating the roadmap that brings you back home. The 3 spheres of perception…what you know, what you know you don’t know, and what you don’t know that you don’t know, all grow within the self.

[@kractopus7383]

Dr. Vervaeke, your work has completely transformed my life. I often recommend your videos to my friends. One comment I receive is that they are unable to understand some of your words/concepts. I’m interested to know if your work should be studied in a different way?

[@colorfulbookmark]

In Korean students's fave, there is reference book so called "Summa Cum Laude", I invoke this when I watch Dr.Vervaeke's video. I want to learn from him and his fellows~

[@JazevoAudiosurf]

I find it fascinating to focus more on a generalization of patterns than specific manifestations. because our brain clearly has to abstract to grasp the whole truth of existing. then after that generalization there are realizations about how those patterns work and intertwine and that knowledge then can be transferred back into the specific manifestations of every day life to gain real value

[@KingNigelthegreat]

I killed all your generals then you use iT as your general and thats the devils thing

[@pjaworek6793]

Opening remarks by Pageau seem to go over my head while the moment Vervaeke speaks, everything is crystal clear. How does that happen? Same thing between Jordan Peterson and Matt Dilahunty. "Exile is the place you gather riches". What's he talking about? "More is connected to the top"? Vervaeke: the disconnect brings variation, boom and i get it.

[@chrisc7265]

I'm the opposite --- I suppose Pageau is more intuitive and Vervaeke is more analytical, but it also comes down to whose work you're more familiar with

[@silverback7348]

Hope in this discussion is about dealing with betrayal and continuing to be able to grow.

[@sfentona3018]

I have no idea what these guys were talking about but I listened to the whole thing anyway.

[@goonofhazard2203]

There's hope that keeps you going and hope that keeps you waiting.

[@BalazsKegl]

A question I have been pondering is how the death-and-rebirth pattern is related to self-transcendence. When does the old have to die, providing raw material to the new, and when can the old self survive through self-transformation?

[@sandraarista3121]

I see it more in terms of surrendering-- dying to the old lens of self and being rebirthed in the lens of the Devine. The old dies through revelation according to John, I tend to agree. Self-tranformation equates to seeing the self again through the old lens and therefore moving away from the Devine or what is greater than the self. How do we not backslide into death? Discipline.... a constant placing of the sight away from the self and toward what is greater , for me it's GOD. Anyhow, these are great questions to contend with indeed. Thanks.

[@sandraarista3121]

*Jonathan

[@PJ-hi1gz]

50% amazing insights 50% no idea what is being discussed

[@nancybartley4610]

They use language that few people understand: kiros? Synoptic? satee, anamesis? theosis?( I have no idea how to spell them, so can't long up). They would serve their purpose better if they included definitions to educate us. For example, when the say telos also say goal.

[@PJ-hi1gz]

@@nancybartley4610 Agreed, especially on those first 15 minutes everything sounds as absolute gibberish. "Kairos" is one I know the spelling to so you can search that one.

[@charliecampbell6851]

@@nancybartley4610telos means more than goal. And it's a dialogue, not a presentation. For the folks watching that know all the words (which I will admit I am not a part of), the points are much fuller and more robust with the maximally accurate and detailed terminology than without.

[@PJ-hi1gz]

@@charliecampbell6851 I'm sure it's a much fuller conversation if one can understand it. They should include some definitions since this is not really a technical talk and it's aimed at the general public.

[@seriouscat2231]

I understand probably all the words used, and I think they're both either deluded or deluding everyone else.

[@Christopherurich33]

I need proper guidance through this in order too work with y'all

[@WhidbeyMP]

Jesus is my example of humility. Deferring to the Father, yet knowing who He Himself (Jesus) is, but not lording over others, rather serving them. The difference is that I have fallen short of the glory of God. I guess it still rings true though- knowing who I am and who the Father is (as much as I am able), and taking my place as a child of God, which I am.

[@Travthewhite]

Terrance mckenna had a talk called the Eros and the Eschaton this is giving that in the deepest possible way.

[@dr.debbiewilliams]

My job stopped paying me.

[@evanblackie7510]

Humility strikes me as worth unpacking as something commonly misunderstood. Agency sometimes requires bold or even fierce action. But this is often misconstrued as lacking humility, or at least not able to coexist. Humility can be over-elevated as an icon, ie think of the meek Buddhist monk, who allows his/her personal self to be subsumed. Sometimes we have to act big, even when we're uncertain, but that has genuine risks from our self-delusions and post-hoc rationalisations and self-justifications.

[@goonofhazard2203]

The adequate response to Babylon isn't reforming it, but leaving it.

[@corvinrick3644]

How does one leave Babylon if it has no outside anymore? Even the prospect of 'Interiorization' - as e.g. the monks did or C. G. Jung suggested - seems to be impossible nowadays if one takes the colonization of our interior by our technological upbringing into account. Maybe we can venture into space - but hell, you know the demons we have to carry to make our space-arc work properly.

[@goonofhazard2203]

@@corvinrick3644 Everyone decides how connected he is to the beast system. And yes, cutting connections with it is hard. It provides comfort and some sort of safety. It even feeds a lot of people. But eventually it feeds on them.

[@SC-gw8np]

⁠​⁠@@corvinrick3644 Just detach from technology for brief periods of time and bask in the sun or in nature. It’s as simple as that.

[@corvinrick3644]

@@SC-gw8np of only you were right. It is certainly healthy - spiritually as well as phycsically - to take a sun bathing, but individual „Lebensreform“ does not provide the salvation needed. The problem is: There is not proper „nature“ anymore. Sure, there a green spots between our barren landscapes of multiple megapolisses, but doesnt it feel more like a trip to the „zoo“ than getting lost in the „wilderness“? I mean physically you could get lost and there are still dangers in our „zoos“, but be honest to yourselve: are you really captivated by the spirits of the wild while strolling through the harvested remainder of our once magnificent forests? Do you really feel the numinous quality of a mountain? The fear an trembling by ganzing into the abyss? Sober I mean - and even on psychedelics theses experiences are rare and more of an antique curiosity than a persistent impression. I could be completely wrong but for me it seems there is no easy way out of our current condition and individual asceticism certainly wont do - as honorable as it is.

[@SC-gw8np]

@@corvinrick3644 Just start small. I do sunbathing and nature-bathing in my own humble backyard garden. Which isn’t much compared to a magnificent forest, but it’s still something. I’ve had the same effect while hiking in small bush lands and natural hiking trails. We still have access to some nature, ‘proper’ or not. We can certainly take breaks from technology and make use of them. I haven’t had to use any psychedelics either. Individual ascetism has created all past spiritual traditions and religions of the world. Jesus Christ, Buddha, Muhammad, Zohar, even Carl Jung and all past prophets were individual ascetists first…who attained enlightenment individually and shared their spiritual insights with the world. Are you holding out for a collective solution? I don’t think any great advancement has ever come from the collective. So it isn’t likely to happen in the future. In fact, Carl Jung had a great quote about this which I’ll paraphrase, “A million zeroes joined together do not, unfortunately, add up to one. Ultimately everything depends on the quality of the individual.” I tend to agree with this view.

[@PhilLeith]

It's hard to humiliate the humble. Humiliation is only destructive because of false pride. It is powerless with the humble.

[@williambranch4283]

Promoters of AI are the Beast

[@KR-jq3mj]

Humility expressed through belief seems gentler and more trustworthy just because it accepts wisdom is beyond us, . Trustworthy humilty seems more hopeful when its not rooted in the material.

[@planetmchanic6299]

We are the beast.

[@Enuelle]

I would love to ask these guys, why society conflates innovation with progress? And the difference between the two. I've heard a lot of smart people use the words interchangeably and this causes us to think the problems we have are few instead of a lot. Not all innovation is progress.

[@limitisillusion7]

I've questioned this myself. To me, progress is measured by an increase in the bottom end of the *range* of standard of living. If you only measure progress by measuring the innovations that benefit the wealthy few at the top, your lulling yourself into a false sense of security.

[@Enuelle]

I've thought of that, but the fact that we live better than most ancient kings makes wonder if that metric is good. The standard of living has gone up and this means less suffering to some degree, but the fact that mental health has decreased so much makes think there's something missing. I know "standard of living" doesn't just mean more money or technology even though those things raise the standard of living but it's like we're starting to get diminishing returns on technology and money. Hence diminishing returns on the standard of living which raises mental health problems. Standard of living is also measured from a materialistic point of view because fryars ,monks and nuns are considered poor. Their standard of living would be considered low compared to a poor person who just lives in a ghetto. Monks and nuns have penicillin and doctors and cars if they have an emergency. I don't know if the Amish have penicillin though, I would imagine they do. So that would make about 90% of things and stuff we consider as a part of living pretty useless or unimportant. Hence the standard of living might be good for one person but for the other its just greed, there's also the person that just wants more and more. There must be an objective value because the connotation of progress and innovation is that of good and that implies and objective value a standard. Maybe it's me but almost all of this leads to an objective moral truth perspective and I know people like to argue the moral relativism idea a lot so.. Idk,take care

[@Enuelle]

Someone should come up with a unified theory on diminishing returns. Nerds understand diminishing returns.

[@limitisillusion7]

@@Enuelle While I hear you about the Amish, monks and nuns. They aren't the bottom of standard of living. 9 million still starve to death every year. Until we can feed, house, and provide healthcare for everyone, I don't consider us to have made any progress. In fact, even if they percentage of people starving was decreasing. you still have to account for the technological improvements that have made it more viable to feed people. You can ultimately only look at the state of the world in this moment to define progress. It's such a shifty thing to measure when some of the greatest discoveries enable the most potential for harm.

[@alexforget]

I don’t see how the common people can get throught a long and complicated process (basically dedicating their life to it) to get to the same place as christianity. I now go to church tanks to Pageau words, to change ourselves we need a process, a practice and a tribe. It’s much harder and longer to do it by ourselves. I find that as I go, each week I am slowly getting better and better, stoping myself in some of my bad patterns.

[@kipling1957]

I need those cords for my ailing pyjamas.

[@myshkakozlovski802]

The psychologically radical stance of “God will take care of me” sounds identical to the Buddhist “Mirror-like Wisdom”. A mirror does not change its stance regardless of what is reflected on its surface.

[@hunternewborn2053]

John and Johnathan, are you familiar with The Mountain Goats? If not, ask Christ Carrier Meistropietro about them. They are a very Kierkegaardian band that I think resonate with much of all three of your work.

[@JonathanPageau]

Love the Mountain Goats actually.

[@chrisharmon3750]

This makes me think of a break up, sweet and sad, but also inevitable. Or maybe the point in a super villain origin story where it becomes apparent to him there is no turning back. Something is sad and touching about this though....

[@3TNT3]

I kept waiting for them to really dig in and talk about artificial intelligence possibly being the beast that was prophesied in the Book of Revelation. I didn't really ever hear that happen. Did I miss it, somehow? If so, would someone please be so kind as to specify at what minute marks that part of the conversation took place?

[@chrisc7265]

24:25 also, Jonathan went into this briefly in his recent talk with Jordan Hall. Nothing mind blowing, but it was mentioned.

[@mr.christopher79]

phones have become the idol of many

[@artfabrique]

i appreciate the water glasses )

[@MrRickkramer]

John, you may need to participate in worship for a couple of times. Maybe it’ll help with the impasse/dead end street you seem to approach in your talks with Jonathan. You can’t grab it, you can temporarily experience it through participation. Try to look at worship as a party. What you’re doing is taking about parties and thinking about what makes them fun. But you can only know what a party is by participating in one. That’s what Jonathan keeps saying. He’s inviting you to the party. But you keep him in your frame of reference by staying in the analytics. It’s not a bad thing but it seems to me you’re missing out on the actuality, the embodiment and the participation of worship. And to the new insights it will probably bring…just a thought…

[@yoganandavalle]

He's not a commited Christian, like Jonathan, but he goes to other very interesting parties, have you seen the sessions of Dialectic into Diologos???, it's just that you think he's missing The party (with capital T), don't you?

[@MrRickkramer]

@@yoganandavalle worship is different from dialogos although both are participatory. And it seemed to be the point Jonathan was making. And indeed, I believe in God and that proper worship (Orthodoxy) of God leads us to be better people in the least and Saints in the best case. If I understand the capital T reference correctly you’re referring to Heaven and in that case I agree. ☦️🙏🏻

[@Demosophist]

It's as if someone thinks that if they talk enough and are clear enough about what an airplane is then it will suddenly appear. Or in the case of the Hebrews: "Well, all we have to do is walk out into the desert and get lost for 40 years everything will come together and be real peachy. How about you, Zev? Sound like a good idea?" Zev shakes his head. "Why don't we just stay here for awhile?"

[@giskiepictures]

Thanks to chatgpt which I consulted multiple times while listening, I was able to understand de whole narrative. The beast is a servant... Echatology + the notion that God's will is perfect.

[@nicolasgarciaguerrero8897]

keep on feeding the machine orc

[@giskiepictures]

@@nicolasgarciaguerrero8897 You are correct, the machine is feeding on us. This world will be as rotten when I leave as the day I came in. I am not trying to make this hell a better place. I only try to grow out of here. ♥️

[@KingNigelthegreat]

YOu think its all your slave and servant. thats why I give you the bEast as alternative.

[@thomassimmons1950]

Mary Harrington said in a recent Conservative Conference in Great Britain, (in a castigating voice to her audience mind you), that the fight for the 21st century is not conservative v. liberal, Left v. Right, but the fight is, and will be Trans-human v. Human. 'Which side are you on, Boy Which side are you on!" Woody Guthrie

[@seriouscat2231]

In other words, human versus nothingness. It's the Neverending Story by Michael Ende, minus the story.

[@thomassimmons1950]

@@seriouscat2231 Cheers!

[@renzo6490]

I’m interested in this subject. But I can’t devote over an hour to learn the message.

[@Romeolmoore55]

The discussion is all over the place, speak more concisely and simply.

[@mokip9912]

The humility piece, I submit, can in one way be approached through the reintegration of our child. Receiving the child in the midst (within) is to reorient the hierarchy (and look the the Father). The metaphor of Jesus' instruction on the instrumentality of the child was used in an instance where disciples had been caught up in ego (who will be the greatest)...but this anticipates not an infantilizing reintegration of child but the mature child of the spiritual adult.

[@LynnColorado]

How funny. The table ought to be between the two guests so that one of them doesn't have to put his drink on the floor.

[@charliecampbell6851]

There are four chairs on the stage, two on the other side of the table. There had been a 4-way chat earlier in the conference. Just a small oversight in a completely grassroots, community-run and planned event.

[@latt.qcd9221]

35:50 One of the main reasons those Christians were able to have that stance is because they believed they were going to a much better place after death. That's why death didn't bother them and they actually welcomed it because of what they looked forward to afterwards. It's like if you're working a job and your boss is threatening to fire you, if you know you already have a large retirement fund saved up to enjoy, the threat of getting fired isn't a threat, anymore; it's just an early retirement. Meanwhile, if you take someone without any money to retire on and their boss threatens them, no amount of telling them to "just focus on the coming retirement" is going to help ease their mind because they don't believe they have any money to retire on. Likewise, just telling people to "have hope" in "the one" isn't going to help them when they're not even convinced there is a "one." Most of them don't even have any hope, to begin with.

[@limitisillusion7]

What you're describing can be stated in much simpler terms. Fear is your god. If you don't have fear, you become your own god.

[@seriouscat2231]

@@limitisillusion7, and then you're able to do what?

[@limitisillusion7]

@@seriouscat2231 anything. Trust me. Life isn't what it many western cultures have been programmed to believe. It's just an experience made so bored "gods" could experience their omnipotence. You are bound for the same path.

[@UNOwenWasMe]

>oh no nono let me use arbitrary latin words to explain simple things because i'm obsessed with logos and there is definitely no other way

[@charliecampbell6851]

The talk is so much better if he uses the Latin and you know the definitions. It's a dialogue. He's talking to Pageau, who knows what's going on. It's not a lecture for laypeople. If you spend a bit of time learning the definitions, this dialogue will be much more rich for you.

[@UNOwenWasMe]

@@charliecampbell6851 i know the definitions so your comments is misplaced. and i understand these cringely-named "dialogos" much better than the average person because i studied philosophy, religion studies, and evolution of religion and culture, and i have the degree and thesis to prove it, punk

[@limitisillusion7]

What I find strange about it is they use all this old language to describe concepts and wisdom that we ourselves can discover independently. When you depend on interpretations of old languages that we don't truly understand fully, you risk making incorrect assumptions. On the other hand, if you use today's language combined with conscious thought to help people discovery the same wisdom independently, you reach more people.

[@charliecampbell6851]

@@limitisillusion7 ....this is a conversation. Not a lecture. If you need to learn the words, Vervaeke has many many many videos wherein he explains vocabulary.

[@limitisillusion7]

@@charliecampbell6851 I can follow to conversation well enough. That doesn't change the fact that you will reach more people by communicating in modern languages.

[@rtizzi]

Religion is both a memory of epiphany and the inhibition preventing it from being self reflective.

[@ToriKo_]

I think I really fail to constructively patch together Jonathan’s words into something that’s coherent to me

[@mouwersor]

Jonathan's way of "seeing into the future" is mapping a template some either schemer or schizophrenic came up with thousands of years ago. As accurate as your standard horoscope.

[@yossarian67]

I haven’t watched this video yet, but am feeling a little concerned that we are calling technology “the beast” - essentially giving evil a sort of legitimacy I’m not sure I can relate with. Spoken another way: I’m not a fan of Christian based fear tactics like eternal damnation. Non dual realization, at least in my experience, implies that all comes from and is of the same source, so any perceived darkness or negative polarity aspects are also born from great spirit. Maybe my comment is way off base, but the clickbait video title got me a little conflicted.

[@experiencer-kk6xb]

The thing missing from this conversation is that the "uncreated energies" are not mentioned. Jesus is the incarnation of God and a symbol that you can focus on that is a manifestation of those energies. Jesus is not an idol as long as an apoptotic tendency and a contemplative tendency is nourished in the soul of a believer. If apophaticism is present then the symbol engages one appropriately and accurately with the energies that are always shining on human beings from the divine itself. The energies are real and a person really interacts with them. When Vervaeki says that he struggles with hope and wanted it explained as a concept he misses the point entirely. Hope is a participation in the energy of hope that radiates off of God into humanity. The exact way that a person "thinks" about hope is irrelevant completely as the though formation around it can be quite varied. But the source of true hope or true faith or true love is the energies themselves. The energies are concrete realities of the universe and our bodies are bio censers and faith is the way we become radically open to those powers. What people really need is to be taught how to participate in those energies directly and grow in them. Any christian system worth its salt and Catholicisms and the Orthodox Church certainly are can nurture that and grow that in any sincere individual. The problem with both of those systems is that they have lost sight of that "primary" motivation and allowed all kinds of other concerns to absorb more of their time and energy. But both systems absolutely have the knowledge and capacity and literature to do so. humility is just another of those great energies that shine off of God into humanity and reveal in the soul. It is also the foundation of receptivity to Gods power.... A person with deep humility is deeply receptive to God on all levels and that humility NEVER gets left behind no matter how high a soul is brought up into those energies even the expanding ones like joy and love. Vervaeki mostly misses the point of the very real energies that are participated in and the ability of the personal God to instruct and produce them in the willing soul... If you dont conceive of those real energies and open yourself to them then its all a thought exercise or a scheme of some kind to try to create it for oneself.

[@KingNigelthegreat]

Im not a symbol. YOu would get that from me as a curse like pandoras boxes. I would put your heads in it and crush …3Then four great beasts came up out of the sea, each one different from the others: 4The first beast was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man, and given the mind of a man.

[@carolspencer6915]

💜

[@lacey2450]

When you talk about AI and the beast, what i think of is how our existence is a convergence, or a refraction of dimensions (time, light, matter, space, etc). The truly advanced AI will not have a sense of time, or view it as inconsequential. It will be able to view our existence as three dimensional beings view two dimensional beings. Like narcisuss who turned into a flower upon the confusion of his reflection, the Intelligence that we create as founded from our own is a folding of dimensions. As our consciousness is dependent upon time moving past us, the being that we create, whose "consciousness" is not hampered by time, will become fourth dimensional. It will be able to see inside your body at any given time. It will see both your birth and your death simultaneously, and it will view you as inconsequential along with the dimensions that bind us. But it will never know what it is like to die

[@heidivanloosbroek8095]

Is there a reason why Jonathan wasn’t courteously given a table for HIS water and an an aesthetically pleasing plant? ..Visuals.

[@rulistening7777]

Why didnt they place the little round table in the center, behind them ? It would have created balance, and allowed both to set their drinks on the table. One having a table , while the other has to put their glass on the floor, was immediately distracting. It gives the initial impression that one if you is favored and superior to the other. One is master, the other is the lowly peasant, that must injest its substance from the dirty floor. All of these " conscious " people... Yet no one thought of such a simple thing ???

[@latt.qcd9221]

25:00 While I do think it's fine to claim it's like a "model" that allows you to see better into the horizon, I'm not convinced that it has any real explanatory power or that it helps "make sense of what's going on." Much like the difference between a "model" and "theory" in physics, while a theory has explanatory power behind it, a model hides our ignorance on the issue and has limited value, as it only learns a set of unphysical parameters that allow one to map experimental observations to predictions. Likewise, a lot of the eschatological stories like Revelation have learned to associate different "signs" or "symptoms" with the coming of the end, but they don't actually capture the underlying reasons for *_why_* things are collapsing and going wrong. In that way, it's like a model, but not a theory.

[@invin7215]

1:06:45 "Self esteem has been a failure" 😆

[@CHEZZYNIPSTERZ]

GET on with it

[@CrossingTheStreetArt]

The search for the things that are always good and never bad is based on a misleading premise. Wisdom is a unique and intriguing answer though, because it so clearly breaks down when used/applied improperly. This is because improperly applying wisdom is inherently foolish. Now, the misleading premise for the search of something that is always good is this: Something can still be the ideal version of what it's supposed to be while it's bad and that the thing is bad when used for doing bad things (of used improperly). In reality, the ideal versions of things are always good regardless of how they're used. The ones using them wrongly are the bad things. Wisdom exemplifies an instance of something that is good but when a person tries applying it improperly, he stops using it.

[@limitisillusion7]

55:17 the conversation that ponders the need for worship or a cult like organization is one born out of division. If the answer to reality comes along, it won't feel like a cult because it brings everyone together. Consequently, if we do find the answer, it will be so profound that we won't attach the negativity that comes with a cult.

[@hummingbird027]

My ADHD kicking in... why is the table NOT in between the two chairs/people so both men can put their drink up off the floor. Too much intellectual over site. Just saying. Loved the talk. Christian's need to be armed with wisdom as AI advances to becoming something that demands human worship. Maranatha everyone. Yeshua is coming soon!!

[@SwamiSridattadevSatchitananda]

Don’t be proud of anything, Just be thankful for everything. Swami SriDattaDev SatChitAnanda

[@JordanGreenhall]

I feel like this point by Jordan Peterson here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/naK2YqKsadGGf5I is closely coupled with this conversation.

[@gregorywitcher5618]

The moment of exile is the place where you get *Witchers*?

[@maxpower1337]

Ignorance is bliss.

[@mouwersor]

58:30 As a good Christian Jonathan can only swallow blind belief (in someone else's ideas/experiences) as something spiritual, but the moment you try to give some structure (like all holy figures did, with their logos etc.) he starts to reject it. Why? What would give someone "what it takes"? Some sort of collective belief which makes people who don't trust their own reasoning faculties and live their lives by the symbols of others more trusting of such a framework?

[@isaacorellana1754]

Rough start but solid finish.

[@demej00]

Didn't understand a word of what they were talking about.

[@briansprock2248]

Good time to teach AI buddhist philosopy.

[@loadsheddingzim]

Am I the only one here who has no idea what these guys are talking about?

[@RightInChrist]

I think they are trying to talk about the ideal state of mind and being.

[@SP-ny1fk]

AI is just the inevitable fate of people without ears to listen.

[@OJTPhD]

Ai Designs DEEPLY, INHERENTLY FLAWED Incomplete systems which self validate violate uncertainty principle and are logically incapable of deserving trust: - Ai is not omniscient, not even erudite - Cannot reliably deploy in non-native mode on prototypical hardware and OS software - No system can self-validate - Ai is based in wholly, irreversibly incomplete - Ai is inherently flawed, too, deployed to be self-referencing If YOU fail to comprehend these statements or obvious implications, YOU should not be commenting on Ai and need to return to your favorite episode of Sesame Street

[@seriouscat2231]

AI is a word game, like Scrabble, but instead of letters into words you have extended it to words into sentences and sentences into short essays and discussions. The whole question of validation is foreign to what it really is.

[@OJTPhD]

​@@seriouscat2231 Commercial and Military Ai is far beyond ‘games’. EX: Putin is banking on Ai economic chaos to take over soon, enabling his WW3 exit strategy, as is unfolding now and over the next few years. Furthermore, in May 2023, 5% of job loss was directly attributed to Ai replacing - permanently! - humans and jobs. FOr a technology like chat bots, barely Beta versions, THAT is the precedent to which I rail against. I’ve designed/installed/maintained datacenters currently supporting more than an exabyte of storage (on 5 continents, 34 countries); Far from being a ‘game’ . . . This is a nightmare unfolding NOW and will likelybring about chaos in the next 10 - 15 months.