Bed Of Chaos SUCKS | Castle Super Beast Clips

[@ryanoleynik5041]

Talking about crazy DS1 stuff, don't forget that the way to save Solaire is to dump 30 humanity into a completely unrelated covenant that is hidden behind an invisible wall. Once you do that, you can now somehow open up an unmentioned door so that you can kill some random bugs. But make sure you kill all the bugs and that you don't take the normal route through Lost Izalith first!

[@Geassguy360]

Solaire is definitely meant to be a tragic story that with effort and nonsense can be saved, that is by design IMO.

[@DarkPlague20]

or just pick a poison or toxic mist and a pyro flame and squeeze that cloud through the door to poison the right one and wait till it dies

[@unseemlyrectalwart4042]

Or you can never talk to him in Anor Londo and he'll just sit there forever. Then kill the bugs and go back for him, at your convenience

[@tenworms]

The Siegmeyer quest is still worse.

[@LazorJunkieninja]

Meh. Thats passable because "saving" him is more of an easter egg than anything.

[@SkyfireHero]

I'm glad Woolie got a chance to replay the game with an different build, for me that's one of my favorite things about Dark Souls.

[@xxSENTENCIAxx]

That MH bit was great. " Woolie: Is it ever 100%? Pat: NO! NEVER! "

[@blackmantis1511]

I mean Pat is technically right, sometimes it’s 150-300% but I don’t think any attack has a 100% MV

[@bicksbernd1640]

Castle Super Beast coming in with the coldest takes when the iron is frozen solid!

[@andrewhopkins2523]

Its not even smelted at this point, it might just be solid ore.

[@ultragamer4465]

@@andrewhopkins2523 that ore being inside of an astroid of 0°K

[@zigmus00A]

A take so hot the Bed of Chaos froze over and turned into Elum Loyce!

[@kylo-benshapiro687]

A take so hot the sword is an oxidized lump in a museum now

[@sasaki999pro]

The 2020's equivalent of _"How about that Water Temple? Amirite??"_

[@Haru-spicy]

Bed of Chaos should have been an entire dungeon. Just all these vines as smaller enemies you have to cut your way through, like the trees in darkroot. Fire raining down occasionally, demons running around. And all the while you'd probably be able to see the Bed on some elevated platform, glowing and luring you in.

[@Zonedoutallthetime]

this would have been so much better wow

[@curranmckenzie9574]

Ancient Wyvern isn’t a great boss, but it certainly seems like more of a “boss as a stage” that you described.

[@kevingeldard3550]

That whole area from Demon Ruins on down had two problems: they were simply copy-pasting the same enemy repeatedly, and the area was so open that you could SEE that it was all copy-pasted. From all that taurus demons in the lava field, to the "dragon butts" nearer the Bed of Chaos, there simply wasn't enough to break up that copy-paste feel. Like... ok, the Burg is full of the same enemies repeating, but they'll be around corners, or in houses, or on rooftops, and there isn't really a single vista where you can see all of them. But if you get to that hidden bonfire nearest Bed of Chaos and look out, you can just see like a half-dozen of these dragon butt enemies all chilling within sight of one another. That's when you could tell they had run out of time and just plonked everything down, so it's no surprise that Bed of Chaos is a very under-baked gimmick boss. The real tragedy was releasing the Remaster and just not doing anything at all to polish this very raw 10% of the game.

[@MakiKuronami]

I'd take a cinematic setpiece over Bed of Chaos ngl

[@dougdynamo9398]

This would've honestly been fantastic.

[@Cheese_Meister]

Woolie is actually doing Reggie justice. Playing it through on his own, and then guiding someone else’s hips after a refresher. Beautiful work.

[@Drusain]

I remember a friend comparing the Bed of Chaos as the same nonsense difficulty someone would do by throwing invisible coin blocks all over a custom Mario map

[@MarcoTalin12]

You should hear the stories about how people used to figure out damage numbers in MH before datamining was a more common option People would throw stones at Aptonoth & Apceros and count how many stones hit. 1 stone = 1 hp. That tells you how much HP those guys had. Then, you hit them with your weapon, and then threw stones at the thing until it died. The difference in stones is the damage you did. they then did this for every attack, every attack level, every sharpness level, etc.

[@redtheftauto]

monster hunter fans are something else holy shit

[@bleack8701]

stoning the monster to death. Also, this is legitimately a better stone measurement than UK's stone for weight.

[@sownheard]

Back when you had to grind for the STATS

[@meathir4921]

This isn’t accurate, you only had to do this for one weapon and then use that weapon to put the monster near death and then resume the rock throwing on a weak monster

[@Genji_Glove]

I'm adding "Smough drinks from the river and Smough hates piss" to the Wiki. Also Pat, to be fair dex does make a noticeable difference to your casting speed with certain spells and most pyromancies. Feels like a 30% reduction in casting time. But the increase only STARTS at 35 Dex and maxes out at 45. So it's still a lie in practice for the poor fucks who leveled to 30 for some casting speed upgrades.

[@locke2517]

I went full "lucky ted" and I one shot the bed of chaos my first time through the game. I remember reading that people hated that part. I didnt get the frustration. On new game plus it took me 20-30 tries and I was like "oooooh, I get it now" Fuck that tree

[@Abdega]

Hope you bought a lottery ticket that day

[@MonsieurBig]

Fuck it super hard

[@jontrain8986]

I could absolutely listen to someone rag on Bed of Chaos for an hour.

[@Brinksarsenal]

When you get further down the NG+ runs of Nioh, the information that makes all the difference for proper builds is so damn obscure that a lot of the finer details are still a mystery.

[@matrix3509]

Eh, its still pretty clear. The only real problem I ever ran into when I did my solo abyss run in the first Nioh, is that some armor effects are absolutely required to get to the end of the abyss, and they don't tell you what those effects are. That and some of the translations for the effects aren't very clear, like the set bonus for the Dragon Ninja set adding extra frames of invincibility to your dodge.

[@kenny42069]

When I did that Izalith shit to save Seigmeyer, I literally zapped every one of the monsters with the Lightning miracle except one... then let him jump down and finish them off. What matters is he felt good about himself.

[@DrRyan82994]

the only thing i really like about it is the strategies people developed to not actually do the boss fight

[@SamaelVR]

You mean the official strategies

[@pyropoyo]

Glad we can finally admit it, 10 years after everyone had already admitted it.

[@pyropoyo]

Man, Dark Souls really is 10 years old huh.

[@Darkyan97]

Nice Beato pic :3

[@tmthycnnlly]

Nice updated pic

[@pyropoyo]

@@tmthycnnlly if the Umineko crossover with the Higurashi gacha brings any good Beato art then I'm gonna be updating my avatar every other day trying to pick a favorite

[@zigmus00A]

I can't believe Woolie's coming in with such a controversial statement

[@nahuel3433]

Bed of chaos is easy. You just gonna know the secret move known as "quit out of the fight" No really. Start, go to one side and kill the thingy, quit out, you'll respawn outside of the fog door and only need to traverse half of the arena instead of the full thing, kill the other bit on the other side, quit out again and you are golden to make the jump. The other trick is to not run because that's just asking to run into a piece of crumbling floor.

[@BaconheartStuff]

Quit out is such a broken move. Invincible ghosts beating your ass in New Londo? Quit out to reset them! running past skeletons in the Catacombs? Quit out to reset them!

[@DarkPlague20]

@@BaconheartStuff its a stronk move

[@Mantorok12]

if and when I play ds1 again, I'm gonna do the bow and fire bombs exploit

[@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat]

“Oh you’re gonna kill me in a broken way? Well I’m also gonna just do that”

[@Comkill117]

Here’s the thing, that works for getting rid of the orbs, but the swings with its arms are still an issue. I once got caught in the back off motion of one after landing on the branch and going up a bit but not far enough where I could see what the arm was doing. This fight is garbage even when you know the “trick”.

[@ArmandoDoval]

Re: weapon scaling not making as much of a difference as Woolie hoped, if your attack rating is lower than the enemy's defense, your damage falls off a cliff. This is why the descriptions for the faster but weaker weapons often mention they're bad against armor, and Black Knight weapons imply the weight and momentum behind them was a necessity due to the size of demons. Splitting your damage over two types with Divine/Enchanted/Lightning/etc means you can come up short against both the physical and elemental defense while a pure STR/DEX weapon with a spell buff might've had a high enough physical attack to at least beat their physical def.

[@GameBooAdvancePlus]

this makes a lot of sense considering woolie was using a divine estoc for most of his playthrough (because he can stab behind a shield with it)

[@crybirb]

That's interesting, I always put everything into dex and ignored all info about anything.

[@DarkWraithKevin]

Uchigatana/crystal magic weapon beats everything. it would have been cool if there were more uses for the infusions. outside divine weapon for the catacombs there's really no point, you don't even really need it that bad tbh but I like the excuse. I still love Dark Souls and it's my favorite game they ever made with Sekiro and Bloodborne share a very close second

[@cheaddos]

@@DarkWraithKevin I like to farm a Silver Knight Spear for the catacombs.

[@MixedRhythm]

@@DarkWraithKevin If you're looking for a run where infusions feel very strong, I'd recommend a tank run where you put almost all your levels into Vit/End, use the drake sword for Quelaag, farm green titanite from the leeches in Blight Town, then go to the Catacombs and grab yourself an early fire weapon from the skeleton smith. Once you get to Anor Londo grab a lightning weapon from the giant blacksmith, and et voila! Almost every enemy in the game is weak to either Lightning or Fire, so your damage is sorted, and you've been dumping levels into health and stamina/equip load all game, so you can mid roll in full havels as soon as you pick it up. Not to mention the Stone armor set that's available almost from the start of the game if you just buy the key from Andre. All that said, it is a lot simpler to just black firebomb the Asylum Demon for his hammer and rush 31 Strength to start killing bosses in just a few hits right away :p

[@charliec.-lite1466]

Player: Okay, I've jumped across these plants that don't look like they should have collision detection, beat each boss in the order specified by the official websites source code when converted from hexidecimal, AND I got Excallibur 2 while playing as just Kazooie. Now you ow me my secret ending! Elden Ring: But it's not TUESDAY yet, player!

[@VanTesla]

Bed Of Chaos has always been a bane for no death runs in my experience. Given I have done things say near perfect and even land on the entrance to it's "heart" I clipped off into nothingness... Seriously pissed me off that entire day years back...

[@danherondraws]

I love it so much when these two are in the same wavelength and pour everything they have on the stuff they dislike, like and get mystified about. I can totally see people giving Pat shit on day one about something he may have missed in the first hour of the game on release date/hour

[@peterwhite6415]

On sidenote.: About the tutorial achivement having a weird percentage where means some people only booted it and didnt bother continuing, i think the reason is due to either the game not running well on their computer or buyers regret maybe.

[@leithaziz2716]

I don't think I've played a game in a while where a single achievment completion percentage is over 90%, maybe even 80. And we're talking games where you can unlock achivments one hour in.

[@HonestlyJustSomeGuy]

I wondered if the gray market was behind this, or players not installing it after buying.

[@FrozenOver0]

I've had times, though few and far between, where achievements just don't register properly for whatever reason. Maybe I had lost connection to steam due to shaky wi-fi, or some such. My steam profile currently has the achievement for completing Portal 1, without earning the achievement for getting the portal gun. I doubt this is the explanation for every lack of tutorial achievements in a game (there probably are a decent number of people that buy a game, boot it up once to make sure it runs properly, then leave to play it "later" once they've "cleared their backlog,") but it's likely one contributing factor.

[@koheikyouji]

They implemented achievements for the PC version long after the initial release. People had done the tutorial etc, but didnt get the achivement because...they didnt exist yet. Thats why the percentage is so low. Theyd have to play the game again to get it to proc.

[@FrozenOver0]

@@koheikyouji Ah, so that's why. I must have been playing right about the time that happened.

[@dannyboi5887]

Remember when Woolie first fought BoC in the LP and still thought Pinwheel was worse?

[@TheSkyfolk]

Pat... high dex increases your spell cast speed significantly, there's a reason why dex pyromancer is so good.

[@The5lacker]

The thing about cast time reductions is it’s the kind of thing that, outside of specific breakpoints, mostly gets better the more and more you commit to it. Reducing a 20 frame animation by 1 frame is a 5% reduction. Reducing a 10 frame animation by 1 frame is a 10% reduction. Reducing a 2 frame by 1 is full-on HALF. So if you just sample it, you don’t see the full benefits.

[@The5lacker]

@Punklove Lustgrip Very true, but it’s an avenue of specialization that isn’t readily apparent especially if you suspect the game’s lying to you. Doing more damage is easy to track. Determining if a 20 frame animation is down to 19 frames isn’t.

[@Brandonious15987]

To me that reduction only mattered for pvp builds.

[@The5lacker]

I’m gonna be honest: the Motion Value system for Monster Hunter makes perfect sense to me: EXCEPT that it was ever hidden. This is the kind of system that needs to be completely and utterly transparent. You should have Base Power for a weapon, and then you have a movelist with Damage Multipliers listed for every attack. Big-old encyclopedia.

[@EbonMaster]

This is a thing I wish more devs would just do. SHOW ME WHAT MY STUFF DOES, DAMMIT!

[@DatAsuna]

Yeah it's not a unique aspect to monster, it's just that other games like Genshin .etc tend to just show you the multipliers so you don't have to question if you're being lied to. lol

[@rrenkrieg7988]

yes i also like the idea of moves doing a percentage of a weapon's base attack, you're not putting the same amount of force into every attack (like old-school mmos)

[@Jsunmile]

The problem is that the motion values are way too low. A strong attack has a MV of like 35%, so you have a weapon with 200 atk and you do a regular swing and only do 30 dmg after all the defense calcs. The number "200" is important to the calculation but doesn't actually communicate anything to the player. If they reduced the attack value and boosted the motion values it would be a lot more intuitive.

[@DarkPlague20]

the way he described it sounded like, but what if ff14 completely hid the potency numbers and your skill descriptions just have a average damage value but without the potency multiplier

[@Darksky1001able]

Bed of Chaos - Worst Boss Kings pet in Ilium Lloyce Clones - Worst Lead up to Boss

[@vaan_]

35:25 I fucking hate how games used to do this. FFXII's development had guide selling in mind the whole time. Funny how these obfuscations started disappearing from games as people started using the internet more.

[@Muu0934]

The Zodia Spear and Omega mk.XII boss fight come to mind for that.

[@Bert_Bertsson]

FFXII is a fantastic game, but the Zodiac spear mechanic is such bullshit.

[@burntair56]

While I hate fighting great rotted tree, I will say they are a thousand times better than chaos bed

[@UncleGeorge20]

"Red is there with his Pikachu and he's level 80!" godamn I laugh hard at that one

[@vj7248]

Gimmick bosses are an important part of the boss roster ecosystem. Not every boss can be artorias, both for pacing (having the same boss for entire game would be boring) but also cus Souls games are trying to do world building and storytelling through the gameplay. In fact, all the bosses in Demon's Souls are gimmick puzzles and they really are all memorable cus of that. Dark Souls 3 goes half n half with epic hard bosses (that culminate into artorias lawl) and gimmick fights. So Fromsoft is capable of making great gimmick puzzle fight bosses. Just that Bed of Chaos, and the lava dragon butt lands, are a clear example of how much crunch can ruin a game. Considering theres a prototype of bed of chaos moving around and doing attacks for a big arena, i def think Great wood is a better do-over. It even has the hand sweeping in the 2nd phase.

[@DemPop]

Fully agree with this, like, Bloodborne has so many amazing and fun bosses, but Micolash and Rom are among my favorites in the game. I've always loved how, especially in the earlier games, Fromsoft tried to vary it up and deliver more experiential fights, things that are memorable for reasons other than "sick anime duel look how hard i pressed the dodge button at the right spot".

[@dannyboi5887]

I gotta disagree, literally the only good gimmick bosses From has done are Executioner's Chariot, Tower knight and Storm king, the rest range from mediocre to terrible And DeS's boss roster being largely composed of them is a big reason why it's bosses aren't as fondly remembered, False king allant, Penetrator and flamelurker being stand-outs because they're 1v1 fights that are actually engaging and fun as opposed to being glorified button presses.

[@vj7248]

@@DemPop Micolash is one of my friends favorite bosses in the whole Souls series.

[@DemPop]

@@dannyboi5887 to each their own, friend. Penetrator and Flamelurker were both among the less memorable in that game for me, while something like Maiden Astraea forever stuck with me, especially paired with the soundtrack (the original 2009 version). Plus, those 1v1 duel fights work way better when there's not that many of them. If Artorias was placed in DS3, he wouldn't be nearly as memorable as he was in DS1, precisely because DS1 didn't feature a shit ton of samey knight versus knight bosses.

[@vj7248]

@@dannyboi5887 if your taking about my Demon's Souls take, I can see the Combat Perspective your analyzing from.... But there is a reason why Demon's Souls is Demon's Souls. The game goes 100% in with the storytelling, hence why all the bosses are gimmicks. So, trying to analyze them from a combat perspective is dishonest. Maiden Astraea and True King are some of my favorite moments in the Souls series. Portraying a characters storybeat moment in real time gameplay, that will always be cool. However, despite how hard Penetrator and False King are... They are pushovers for anyone whos played any other Souls game before. So 'difficulty' will always diminish overtime. I do see that Demons Souls going All In on gimmicks is a bad idea for any new Souls game, and it really was done cus they didnt know how to do combat till they made Artorias, but this is why the series has a diverse boss roster for later titles. Bloodborne, Dark Souls 3, Sekiro. Really, storytelling still is the focus, they are just better now at combat and sneaking in gimmicks.

[@VanTesla]

To be fair the DLC if played after the awful parts does mask said awful a good amount. Remember DLC had some of the best fights in Dark Souls 1 and needed to be at the archives by the Crystal Caves to even access the DLC.

[@DarkWraithKevin]

It should also be mentioned that they designed it in a way that you can fairly easy lock yourself out of it. That takes some balls for a dev to design it that way. "Oh, you're an asshole that kills npcs? Well fuck you, replay the game if you wanna experience the dlc"

[@VanTesla]

@@DarkWraithKevin Dark Souls Games that include Demon's Souls and Bloodborne. Usually allow the player to kill or piss off at least everyone. Which could as you said gate off DLC, stop entire quest lines, cut off check points, unable to upgrade your weapons, and etc. To me I enjoy it given it punishes the overzealous attack first and think later attitude in much of gaming. Only times I didn't like it was at first aka being ignorant and in old cases when say in some instances could accidentally attack something during an invasion. Old trick invaders would do is stand by NPCs that they can't hurt, but you might obviously given the invader.

[@xsoultillerx]

@@DarkWraithKevin for some reason the "locking you out of DLC" reminds me of fable 3's DLC where you pretty much HAVE to beat the game in order to play it. despite the fact that you literally have a lull in the game where you should be able to play it after you dethrone your brother.

[@meathir4921]

@@DarkWraithKevin “fairly easily” > kill an NPC after rescuing her that only appears after killing a Hydra and then returning to the Hydra’s lair B R U H

[@DarkWraithKevin]

@@meathir4921 i have no clue what you're fucking point is

[@vj7248]

Anyone that wants to replay Dark Souls, look up the Bed of Chao ez kill. Using a bow crosshair, you can position to throw firebombs to destroy both the orbs at the same time.

[@m.czandogg9576]

Big YUP

[@godfreyhowatchin]

woolie isnt going to like hearing firebombs are useful

[@LtSprinkulz]

Or just use a shield and don't roll around like an idiot.

[@m.czandogg9576]

@@LtSprinkulz Rolling around like an idiot is always bad, I agree. But That shield can't reliably protect you from bad hitboxes, magic or fall damage lol. I give my full consent to anyone trying to circumvent the BoC in any way because it is borderline *objectively AWFUL* design.

[@LtSprinkulz]

@@m.czandogg9576 fair nuff

[@Dante9377]

I am one of the people that actually appreciates the fact that despite the archers being bullshit for the taurus demon, it teaches you to fight him up on the platform rather than on the bridge, or at least about better positioning, because it forces you to run up to the archers and see his animation where he jumps up on the ledge.

[@MisterAnonymous1000]

I love how Woolie failed to see that sparkles from the crystals fall on to the invisible surface. The item on the ledge in front of the first butterfly, has a tunnel with an invisible path and the sparkles do the same there. The teaches you the mechanic before going forward, but Woolie has never been known for having good perception, despite having 20/20 vision. In fact, I believe he's been known for this exact contradiction.

[@Tearonex]

1hr long talk about Souls games' game design? I'm fine with this...

[@bumblebee9736]

To be honest, half of it is MonHun damage values.

[@Steel_Beowulf]

It's funny to me that Dark Souls 1 is usually regarded as the height of the series, but IMO it has the most amount of content that I never, EVER want to touch again lmao. I agree that it has the highest peaks in the series, though.

[@NACHO1111NAC]

Highest of highs, lowest of lows.

[@mcstickz1]

It also is the one you can get the most busted in to varying ways. Magic is busted, but so is that game's variant of power within, red tearstone ring, etc etc. It was FUN to try out new things!

[@SamSphinx]

Bed of Chaos, Broom Closet Capra... Pinwheel...

[@matthewy2j]

I always find Capra is fine, as long as you go to the garden first and get Havel's Ring. That being said going to Capra first is awful.

[@TheSlammurai]

This is why I prefer DS3. Still has bullshit, but much less than the two that came before it.

[@bract3519]

Ngl this arch tree mega stump lore is pretty neat

[@wumbojet]

It's a really cool posible setting for a fantasy game/novel

[@leithaziz2716]

I enjoy concepts with room for creative ideas and settings. Look at me who's into JoJo, Guilty Gear, TWEWY, DMC (though DMC is not really too out there in concepts) among other stuff. Dark Souls takes a lot of inspiration from Berserk and it makes for a lot of interesting locations, creatures, etc.

[@zigmus00A]

I wanna see the Flat Earther Lore be used to create a fantasy setting

[@zhentable]

@@zigmus00A so trails

[@MakiKuronami]

If Flat Earth involves layers of flat earths on top of the flat earths it would be a much more hype theory. It's arch trees all the way down.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

Woolie’s Toothpick builds still doing no damage

[@vj7248]

For me, the secret endings/npc quests/content is cool. Hearing how there was entirely secret optional stuff I missed cus of actions I did or cus i wasn't exploring around, hey that just gives me more reason to replay. These games are great so, being able to replay and experience new content is fun. I get why tho for LPers and streamers that secret stuff is 'annoying' cus you wanna do EVERYTHING cus you may never ever have a chance to play it again, cus you can only play new games for the Job. Again, i get it... But for a game to have any meaningful choices or exploration it has to be secretive there. I'd say more of the issue is that Souls games have the stigma of 'difficult combat' , but NPC quests, multiple endings, or exploration... Its never really marketed that way even if the games do have it as part of its core design. Like Witcher games are designed in same way with secretive questline checks to get alternative endings, having checks specifically designed to be hidden that you wouldnt realized ya messed up till 50 hours later, well if you even met the character in first place.... But people are going in knowing theres CHOICES and EXPLORATION. Honestly, with Elden Ring having the sekiro movement and bigger maps (and if rumors true, actual NPC towns), this perspective of Souls games being a combat gauntlet will decrease. And the value of interacting with characters and exploration will be more apparent.

[@TAMAMO-VIRUS]

The other issue they pointed out is that people mock you for not knowing the secret stuff on your first ever playthrough.

[@vj7248]

@@TAMAMO-VIRUS which is silly cus: 1. People backseating like that in a chat probably didnt even play the game, they just look up the wiki to seem smart and give shitty advice to the streamer to appear 'Helpful' 2. You literally arent supposed to know any of the secret stuff. Its like laughing at someone for not knowing the twist ending to a movie, or spoiling the twist 'just so you dont miss it'. But again, people only go into Souls game with stabby on the brain so i see why it ended up like this... Its def annoying

[@FrozenOver0]

See, even as someone who doesn't do LPs, I don't mind missing something for lack of exploration, or maybe missing some content due to one decision or another canceling out one bit of content with another. My problem is more when games are needlessly obtuse about things (I.E. after talking to an NPC in the chapter 4 dungeon, the next part of their quest requires backtracking to a chapter 2 dungeon to meet them, and the only thing hinting at this is a single updated line of dialogue from a completely unrelated NPC in the chapter 3 town, even though nobody else in the town got new dialogue). This is just made worse if the items or quests can be permanently missed (and in FromSoft games, the constant background autosaving only amplifies this problem). I just don't like feeling punished for making progress, and prefer when there's a logical reason to backtrack, etc.

[@vj7248]

@@FrozenOver0 i think having a simple questlog would help with that. Not a normal questlog and markers tho, cus i think some obstruction is needed to keep up a mystery. More close to Morrowind. Actually, Pathologic 2 has the best quest tracker ive seen that takes into account both obstruction of info to keep up the mystery AND follow wtf is going on and where to go.

[@Tsunamidusher]

*sees Bed of Chas* Oo, dark souls topic... *sees Bed of Chaos Sucks* This gonna be good. *Over 1 hour vid* HOLY SHI-

[@EdanR]

When Pat said "damage calculation" prefaced it with it being a subject everybody hates, the first place my idiot brain went was damage calculation in Yugioh. The math itself isn't complicated, but holy shit is the act of a monster attacking split into an unnecessary number of distinct steps, each with their own niche ruling scenarios.

[@meathir4921]

The damage step is an art form

[@vj7248]

I honestly think that the whole controversy with Dark Souls 'difficulty' is an extreme misunderstanding. Dark Souls combat is extremely simple, all you do is roll and smack enemies its not DMC. However, all these complex mathematical equations going on everywhere with all these contextless numbers... THIS is really what is killing newbies. People boot up the game hearing its 'super difficult', but dont know its an RPG so they never level up the correct stats or their weapon or armor, thus making the game super difficult unintentionally... But because they heard it WAS 'super difficult' they dont realize something is going wrong with their build and just give up on the game. So i think the obstruction with the NUMBERS does need to be explained somewhere. At least I'd say they could hire some souls community members to make some official 'all the RPG related' guide videos to explain "yeh you want your numbers to look like this, this is what all the stats do, heres build options for newbies".

[@leithaziz2716]

I tried to get into the Souls genre through Bloodborne. My issue wasn't really the difficulty (it was a hurdle at the start, but I started making progress), but more often the issue was that I often had no idea what the heck I'm suppoused to do. I get lost on several occassions and at one point I just gave up. It's the game's openended-ness actually making it hard for me to know if im going the right way. Funny you made the DMC comparison as that's a favorite series of mine.

[@vj7248]

@@leithaziz2716 i see, yeh Bloodbornes RPG is the most straight forward cus every weapon is awesome. But it is openended by design, to go with its Lovecraftian storytelling. Even trying to progress feels like solving a secret. I'd definitely check out Dark Souls 3 then cus that is very linear in comparison. Or Sekiro if ya want more indepth combat. Not as deep as DMC, but its a step up from Dark Souls.

[@Alexander-nr5tt]

DMC is way easier than Dark Souls, outside of maybe DMC3. The combat may be complex, but you don't have to use anything advanced to beat the game.

[@vj7248]

@@Alexander-nr5tt Im comparing DMC at its 'real' difficulty, at the higher levels, as well as aiming for S rank too. Normal is intentionally nerfed so you can get thro it on ur first time spamming the same moves. Souls is in reverse, where it's 'Hard' by default and you can make it easier by RPG related shenanigans. ... Or make it harder by not leveling anything up heh.

[@aftertone3146]

Well no, the game is difficult by desing. Miyazaki wanted the crushing despair to be felt thru gameplay so the game is difficult as a result of the world.

[@MrBusiness247]

I would agree with Pat's version of the Bed of Chaos fight, if the lead up to her wasn't already filled with the dozens of former boss demons/re-skins you've killed already in the Demon Ruins.

[@phenixryte23]

9:50 I mean it's an idea but honestly they already had the better concept for the boss fight in the game... Kirk and the unnamed sister of Chaos fight side by side to protect the bug in a fight somewhat reminiscent of Maiden Astrea and if you've met Quelana you can summon her to even the odds and for L O R E. Also on Sekiro being the cleanest release... watch any speedrun of the game and you'll find that despite its seemingly very polished exterior even the slightest fiddling causes the game to completely fall apart at almost any given moment.

[@Brandonious15987]

At least that takes effort to break the game. DS1's bullshit isn't optional.

[@dragon387ify]

Except you can't summon Quelana, you fight them alone.

[@maguszero]

I play Path of Exile, which possibly has the longest and most convoluted system full of far too many numbers I've ever seen, but all of them do actually make sense. But even in something like Dokapon, a system where numbers swell over time, but where you want huge swings after a few levels of difference can require some pretty weird math.

[@Tekh09]

I will never forget that on my first run of Anor Londo, I cleared the archers on my first try. Made it to the bonfire, walked up to touch it...and got invaded and lagstabbed to death. Sent back before the archers and did not have nearly as much luck on my next ten attempts.

[@mobsterlicous]

@19:20 I'm so happy to hear Pat say that. Ive been saying that for years and I was beginning to feel like I was the only one who felt that way

[@ge4029]

Ultimate Bed of Chaos Tech: 1) bring bow with arrows 2) go down the slide 3) when you land, shoot glowy bits with bow 4) do the jump, kill the bug 5) profit

[@bearVshark100]

I'm not gonna watch this clip since I listen to the podcasts but I have to say, dedicating an hour of your 3-4 hour show to talking about how much the bed of chaos sucks is the correct thing to do.

[@VanTesla]

I can understand Punchwife leaving be it you getting possibly infuriated at the process or how Lost Izalith is awful to look at... Like how in any parts with lava all around looks like staring at the sun on many screens... Replaying a year or so ago I just wanted to finish fast as it was hurting my eyes...

[@franklinturtleton6525]

Fun fact, the bed of chaos gets super easy if you use a bow. You can break the branches with arrows and you can see it in one of the corners. Speedrunner trick is just convenience.

[@KarazolaX]

Thematically it’s just so cool though. Having to cut through branches, this fight for your life more akin to a disaster movie then a boss fight, you work your way deeper and deeper, and you find this little bug, and you cut it open in one hit. So cool.

[@VanTesla]

Micolash is full on troll embracing. Also if know the mechanics well you can break his AI pretty frequently to kill him faster. Bed of Chaos just sucks if it decides to bug out if not sniping it with a certain method that doesn't activate the stupid... Also clipped dozens to hundreds of times on the dam branch to go kill it after doing the phases properly... Death via fall is the worse in that "boss" fight be it clipping or the invisible hit boxes...

[@musoumiko4730]

*"Is it ever one hundred percent??"* **"NO. NEVER."** I love monster hunter.

[@thedazzolator3670]

"It's the worst thing they ever made" I dunno Frigid Outskirts exists.

[@oceanviolets1306]

Frigid outskirts do not have infinite damage drops and giant hands pushing you into it. You can turtle through horse fuck valley.

[@jonaswest6993]

B team mistakes don't reflect on From or their future projects

[@RippahRooJizah]

@@oceanviolets1306 Frigid Outskirts is still far worse than Bed of Chaos.

[@Graysett]

But it's not worse than Demon Ruins + BoC.

[@RippahRooJizah]

@@Graysett Demon Ruins has some good bits in what is otherwise a rushed and kinda bland area. Bed of Chaos was an annoying boss but outside of Swipes of Doom TM it was a piss easy boss. Frigid Outskirts, while shorter, was malicious in its design, with less actual level design in an otherwise half decent DLC area, and your reward is just a recycled boss, but two of them (Yes I know DS1 did this as well, except the 2 Guardians had less health and weren't actually bosses).

[@ARB1452]

I quit the game on my first run for several months because I got trapped in the catacombs with the wheel skeletons. I then came back and fought through and killed Pinwheel and fought my way through tomb of giants and then found the damn gold fog and realised I had to go all the way back. Also I'd aggro'd Patches by saying I liked clerics and had to kill the fucko before attempting the climb out. Somehow made it out without quitting again.

[@Jyrecho]

On the steam version of Prepare to die Edition, 28,5% of players have acquired the lordvessel. So yeah lots of people got the good experience :))))).

[@op8388]

Hearing Pat talk about the damage system in Monster Hunter makes me think his mind would explode if he came across the probabilistic nightmare that is damage/armor pen in Escape from Tarkov

[@brothertobias]

4:40 "At best, you're taking the detour past the golem". Woolie, did you not use the secret bonfire that's directly outside of the door? Behind the hidden wall? Or did you mean that and I misremember there not being a golem at all.

[@SombreTerror65]

I think he means the titanite demon. The way through the back door of Lost Izalith is better cuz you don’t have to switch rings for lava traversal.

[@ackbarreserve]

@@SombreTerror65 counterpoint, you have to deal with the single respawning titanite demon in the game, which is by far the strongest too.

[@desgoyomama3274]

@@ackbarreserve Counter-counterpoint, dodging it isn't that difficult, they're not that fast.

[@hildegard5852]

@@desgoyomama3274 Counter-counter-counter point, the demon’s attack frames linger so even if you dodged correctly you can still get hit (particularly that bullshit jump attack)

[@goldchampion200]

@@hildegard5852 counter-counter-counter-counter point Your implying your in a position where the lingering hitbox matters which even if it does get you it doesn't matter as long as it doesn't kill you.

[@shadicnion500]

just considering the oh no body completed the second half of dark souls so they remember it fondly thing. there might be some weight to that considering the fact that symphony of the night is a classic but inverted castle is fucking terrable.

[@LtSprinkulz]

Dark Souls 2's magic is ABSOLUTELY stronger than 1's, that is 100% [Crazy Talk] at work, bro.

[@superkeaton9912]

God, trying to do a sorc build in DS3 is pure fucking pain, Farron Swamp was a fucking crucible to get through.

[@tanakaba]

I played pure sorc and the the DLC that starts with the double demon boss fight literally tanked my MP and all 15 mana estus flasks and lived. ;_;

[@Alice-May]

See, a boss rush of various demons makes sense for fighting the thing all the demons came from.

[@d3nyd]

1:01:10 Probably not the most insane prediction ever, but there are like 3 spots like this in the last 2 areas of Elden Ring... like he almost described them to a tee.

[@dawn2891]

The bed of chaos is the only reason I’ve never beaten dark souls more than once. Despite making many play throughs.

[@onimaxblade8988]

Cowardice.

[@m.czandogg9576]

I feel you on that. Personally, I stop my runs after I beat O&S cause. . . you know.

[@bossbeartherock6034]

@@m.czandogg9576 well the dlccand gwyn are great but yey lost izalith are fucked

[@m.czandogg9576]

@@bossbeartherock6034 I should've mentioned that, you're sincerely completely correct.

[@bossbeartherock6034]

@@m.czandogg9576 also tomb of the Giants without the maggot light is just terrible and into depending on build and rng can be pretty fucky with his magic .

[@Blitzthesquirrle]

Remember though Miyazaki apologized for Bed of Chaos but not for Maneaters

[@michaeljaysutherland1016]

maneaters ain’t even that bad though, it’s like the classic wow thing of “people just sucked back then”

[@existingdark]

Maneaters was fine, Flamelurker was also fine. Demon's was the first real Souls game so everyone had to learn it's fundamentals. If every boss fight held your hand, you would never have gotten good enough to fight Manus, Artorias, etc. If any boss in DeS needs an apology, it's the Old Monk being a scraping spear player.

[@MiraiGen]

Whenever they talk about flat earth I'm basically screaming for them to watch In Search of a Flat Earth. They are way funnier and scarier than you think.

[@meathir4921]

Bloodborne’s DLC is accessed the same way you access the Nightmare Realm. The item description hints at this too.

[@MarcoTalin12]

Regarding the two damage numbers in MH. The lingo for those is "True Attack" (which is the version where every weapon of the same tier shows the same attack stat) and "Displayed Attack" (which is the version where it's bloated for weapons that typically do more damage): It's actually pretty consistent which games use which. All of the mainline MH games use "Displayed Attack" as the attack stat you see on your weapons. It's only the in-between games that use "True Attack" (Portable 3rd, Generations, and Rise). I think there's been one director in charge of those games, and it's been assumed that he's the reason why those games use True Attack.

[@rrenkrieg7988]

woolie asking for more information yet gets overwhelmed when there's more than one thing on the screen is a bad mix

[@TerasOde]

51:24 "And it's bullshit because games shouldn't be developed with the idea of (accessing new/interesting content only through some really obscure methods that require internet help) in mind or the reliance of it." '*'[Laughs in _Noita_ ]'*'

[@TheSkyfolk]

What woolie needs to know regarding weapons that scale with faith and int, is that your stat distribution affects the damage of your weapon relative to the damage type the stat buffs. The Cescent Axe in particular scales only its magic damage with a mere B in faith, with a D/D in physical scaling for the physical damage. Not only are you splitting damage types, but you're also only gaining meaningful damage on one side of the weapon's damage. The reason why some split damage weapons are good is simply because they either offer a flat damage buff based on the weapon level, or they scale with humanity like the Furysword, which is excellent because sitting at 99 humanity is easy. The MLGS is another exception because it does pure magic damage scaled only with int.

[@northkorea9223]

You get the max humanity scaling damage at 10 soft humanity, 99 is just for defense

[@TheSkyfolk]

@@northkorea9223 I'm aware of that but yeah I should have said 10 instead of 99 lol, I'm just used to rolling 99.

[@dwelfking8050]

Took me a hot second of forgetting what MLGS was to come up with "Martin Luther Greatsword"

[@northkorea9223]

@@TheSkyfolk Sameee

[@GameBooAdvancePlus]

Speaking of then, wouldn't an Occult weapon be better for Woolie if he's going all in on faith? He says he's using divine instead...

[@blackdragoncyrus]

Do you remember in Dark Souls 2, you can accidentally use the Soul Vessel by mistake and reset to BASE STATS?? Yeah, me neither.

[@Michael-bn1oi]

Can you? I thought it only worked with the NPC and it always gives you all the souls. It's a respec item, you don't lose anything.

[@217adaptiveperspective]

Yeah, you really have to go out of your way to Respec, and even then you get all your souls back anyway

[@MortalWombatI]

They added that description for lore I think, but as I recall it can’t be used any place other than that NPC.

[@starwars90001]

This sounds as bad as the Fallout 1 & 2 hidden weapon perk stuff, where you get different gives you perks the game doesn't tell you about.

[@richardfiddler4526]

I beat fallout 1 and didn't know that...fuck

[@DoctorHowl]

woolie, you talking about horses walking on ledges like you've never played skyrim

[@HappyHyperHuggieNini]

Fun bit of trivia, almost everything about the bed of chaos design and aesthetic is very similar to the final boss of the first From Soft game, King's Field, except instead of a puzzle boss you just have to keep shooting it with magic while it summons demons, makes wall faces shoot at you, and slaps you with its giant tree hands.

[@VanTesla]

Gwyn I first playthrough didn't parry as I thought there is no way that be implemented for the final fight... So beat him once no parry and after just parried what o thought was a tough boss into a trivial joke....

[@TayoJD23]

"So now there's a second FAKE number, which is their TRUE damage-" Pat what do you MEAN the true damage is the fake number

[@AgentZombieMan]

*People:* "Dark Souls 1 is a fantastic, amazing, and almost flawless game." *The Truth:* This Discussion

[@EbonMaster]

Those first two things are true the third one is copium to the max lol.

[@BazzBrother]

this sentiment just reeks of ds2 apologists

[@AgentZombieMan]

@@BazzBrother You seem like the kind of person who goes “I can’t defend my chosen political party or their actions/stances, so I’m just gonna call you an asshole for supporting the other side”

[@riddlemethat5597]

I went on a quest to join the forest covenant to get a ring specifically because of how awful I was doing with the silver archers. Reggie just traipses through it but that is a part of the game where some people TURN AROUND and walk back down the mountain, through Sen's Fortress, all in search of a way to deal with these outrageous fuckers.

[@vivalaminion2936]

You know what's worse than modern obfuscation? Being able to make a bugged mess of a game and releasing it saying, "We can fix it in post-launch." That mentality exists because of live updates and patches that wasn't really used before the 2000's. Imagine if Cyberpunk 2077 was released and there was no way to patch it. Only physical copies exist that would be recalled from stores. People would be able to return a defective product via store policy because there was no pre-order red tape preventing the customer from doing so. But why take interest in such thoughts when you can pre-order the next installment and expect a mindless, heartless corporation to honor any sort of code. You don't need to play a game based in a dystopian future, because WE LIVE IN ONE.

[@Geassguy360]

Pat: People love DS1 because they didn't beat S&O. Me: Uuuhhhhh noooo?

[@willadkins1354]

He’s not wrong.

[@Geassguy360]

@@willadkins1354 He definitely is.

[@questingmoo]

For anybody interested, the KZbin channel Zullie the Witch digs deep into the files of souls games to explore cut content

[@djwolfie14]

Love that this clip is as long as alot of other full podcasts

[@joshuamaurer9784]

There have been less people who have beaten Pinwheel than have killed O&S.

[@princeshadow13]

>clip >One hour, five minutes, seven seconds Long ass clip

[@jonaswest6993]

The Archers used to be in line of sight to each other so one could snipe you off of the other one.

[@Cloperella]

This is going to sound very melodramatic, but I want to thank you both for helping me relieve a lot of mental stress around this game. Long story short, I LOVE Bloodborne, been playing it seriously since September, figured "hey, let's give Dark Souls a whirl, I'm sure I'll love it too". I did not. Most of my experience has been agonizing, not because of enemy difficulty (I find it bafflingly easy most of the time), but because of level design and generally being lost. Defeating a boss and not knowing where to go unless I Google it. Not knowing how to get through an area because I didn't know you could walk on the set piece, because it looked too jagged to stand on. Not enjoying combat because enemies either refuse to let you in, or they kill themselves by walking off the edge, not really feeling like a "challenge", just having very stubborn and dysfunctional AI. I took my complaints to the subreddit, and you guessed it, a mountain of "git gud" and "you don't deserve this masterpiece" comments. I was baffled, I couldn't believe that so many people would blindly defend such atrocious design -- not saying that it's bad to like these games for the stuff you like, but just outright saying "it's not bad design, you just suck". Thank you both for putting my mind at ease. Thank you for letting me know it's ok to recognize design flaws, to be frustrated by design flaws, and not have it be your own fault. I acknowledge that Miyazaki and the team aren't perfect and what might work as a concept might not work as well in execution, so mistakes do happen. But I really did need to hear "it's ok to get frustrated at design flaws, your feelings are valid". Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

[@ClasticOne]

The reason different weapons with the same letter grade scaling can have different bonuses with the same stat is not just because each letter covers a range of bonuses, but because the scaling bonus is determined as a function of the base damage of the weapon.

[@thelaughingrouge]

"It's been 20 years, how have they not fixed this yet?" Me, a Bethesda fan: "First time?"

[@goldsocks9999]

I love myself a very clear fighting game but i love the guts system in GGXrd Rev2. The bar is designed in a way that it really seems like the match is super close constantly.

[@DarkWraithKevin]

It's really sad Izalith didn't get the attention it deserved. At least we got smoldering lake though

[@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat]

14:51 I’m still amazed by the fact that I simply walked up the ramp with my shield, did one parry and that was it

[@profeseurchemical]

the bloodborne one isnt as bad as the ds1 one because in bloodborne, the dlc gate is a copy of one that already existed in the game to hide another optional area. its be like if the artorias dlc was hidden behind a painting aswell

[@Copperhell144]

23:13 Yeah, scaling increases damage depending on your stat AND the weapon's base damage. So higher base damage lower scaling rating weapons can gain more damage from scaling than lower base damage higher scaling rating weapons. It's odd.

[@ladyinwight]

how is that odd? if it didn't work that way high base damage weapons would barely be benefited and low base damage weapons would probably literally multiply their AR

[@Copperhell144]

@@ladyinwight It makes sense when you mention that, but the game doesn't make much of an effort to teach that (throughout the whole series actually). So when you look at the stats screen it's easy to assume "scaling = damage per point I have in that stat" even though it actually computes off of base damage as well

[@punishedbrak4255]

@@Copperhell144 Precisely this. It's the way I first understood it to work and how my buddies I've introduced DS to thought it worked at first as well

[@nhall129]

The arcane stat has called from the future release of Elden Ring, it wants its split damage scaling

[@GameBooAdvancePlus]

You can make bed of chaos less painful with one simple step: turn the game to 30fps. I'm not joking. your jump distance is tied to your fps.

[@leithaziz2716]

Reminds me of how in the Remastered version of Yakuza 3 (could be 4 & 5 too), the distance covered by your dodge is almost doubled compared to the original. Some mechanics in games are sometimes directly tied to the framerate.

[@Gangstas_Peridot]

Only in the PTDE with DSfix. I believe the official Remaster has done away with all the uncapped FPS shenanigans.

[@KhronosTrigger]

That's kinda like Doom Eternals thing that makes you fly and it's tied to your fps.

[@Alexander-nr5tt]

@@leithaziz2716 The console version is doubled but the PC version goes the other way where it doesn't cover enough distance. Really lazy ports.

[@versebuchanan512]

You have NO IDEA how hype I was seeing the damage numbers validating my beloved gunlance

[@cyberspacecat]

It's funny to go back to this after numerous code diving into Elden Ring and realising player Poise lies to you in the stats, it's essentially showing you a decimal point behind, so 60 poise is actually 6.0 poise, and the weakest enemy has 15 poise. I recommend Illusory Wall's videos on ER poise for more details.

[@kovulion7777]

weirdly enough, say DS2 is bad with guys in armors, but at least they're working and beatable without looking into the internet for outside the box solutions for bosses

[@shotguncrucifix]

Is the plot of Elden Ring the new flat Earth?

[@cyberninjazero5659]

Look if climbing Yggdrasil doesn't get me into Asgard is the game even worth playing?