Rev. Langstroth HATES Your Hive | Langstroth VS Layens Q & A

In this video, I answer some questions about my opinions on Langstroth, Layens, varroa mites, treatment free beekeeping, and other decisions new beekeepers have to make.
The biggest question you have to ask yourself before you start beekeeping about your apiary management is, "what are my beekeeping goals?" Once you define your objectives choosing a hive will be much clearer.
I also touch on why Rev. Langstroth would not like today's typical Langstroth hive and actually preferred a much more robust hive. These thoughts are quoted directly from Rev. Langstroth's 1853 book Hive and The Honey Bee.
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[@TheMlkj]

Great discussion Bill. Horizontal hives are great if you have a bad back or limited strength issues. Anecdotally, I was two for two on winter survival with Layens as a first year keeper this year. I'm up to 5 hives now due to them swarming. If you have basic woodworking skills, you can get bees for free. Add in homebrewing and you get three hobbies that play well together.

[@BeeBoyBill]

For sure! I do all three of those. Last year I even tried making some mead that turned out quite well. Thanks for the comment!

[@terryleggett1662]

Great video. I have Langstroth but thinking about the Layens. I am also foundation-less because I believe foundation is the cause of the mite problem.

[@steveplescia9006]

"they build their houses in trees and trees don't move". . . I absolutely love it! . . . Another great video . . . Very informative and common sense explanation to the differences between the Langstroth and Layens approaches to beekeeping. While I was already sold on the Layens horizontal hive, this video only solidifies my decision to start with Layens hives as a first year beekeeper. Thanks for sharing your insights Bill!

[@BeeBoyBill]

Thanks for your comment. I appreciate the feedback Steve!

[@SecureAcresNaturalBees]

Layens is awesome. We used langstroth for six years prior to switching to Layens and we were shocked by how efficient the Layens were. Just the work difference between the two is justification enough! Great video Bill!

[@BeeBoyBill]

I’ve only dabbled with Lang’s of friends and/or the two in the yard but wasn’t thrilled. Thanks for the comment Wes!

[@iowalayensbeekeeping]

Bill your videos were helpful for me last year starting in beekeeping. I am building insulated Layens hives. You can do anything for your bees in the Layens that can be done in Langstroth hives. I found that a Langstroth 8 frame plastic queen excluder is a direct fit in my hives. Just need to trim the length a bit. We don’t need it for honey but it comes in handy for queen rearing.

[@BeeBoyBill]

Good to know George, email me a pic of how you are using yours if you have a chance I’d like to see the setup. Thanks for the comment!

[@jameskosharek6838]

I have both and I will say Bill's layens hive and swarm trap builds are working awesome for me. Thank you Bill.

[@BeeBoyBill]

Thanks for the support James!

[@FieldFarmForest]

I got my first nuc this spring and I’ve installed it into a layens hive. I chose it because we are so far north and I figured it would be a better wintering hive. There aren’t a lot of people talking about natural beekeeping. It’s refreshing to hear you speak so plainly. I’m a new subscriber. ☮️🐝-Kirsten

[@BeeBoyBill]

Thanks Kristen, and welcome aboard!

[@jodiwalker5082]

We are considering beekeeping. I was researching the best langstroth hives, when I came across Layens and long hives. The more natural approach appeals to me. Especially with no experience. I would love to let the bees work more naturally, with little interference from me.

[@thisculturedlife2220]

I def got told not to use horizontal hives, but that was my preference, so I did and have not regretted it. I built Kenyans top bar hives. My next goal is Layens, for splits next season. I think they'll overwinter better.

[@jedrouth9147]

Thanks so much for making this. Very informative, I've saved it for future reference. I just caught my first swarm this year and am using a Layens hive. I've been told that it "won't work here." We'll see...

[@BeeBoyBill]

Hey Jed, Congrats on the swarm catch! Layens hives are used all over the world and I can’t think of a place that they wouldn’t do better than a Langstroth. Best of luck on your first year!

[@11bravo79]

Subbed! I’m going to have my fit hive next spring, and I’m definitely interested in the layens hive.

[@BeeBoyBill]

Welcome aboard 11Bravo!

[@-Never-bored]

Yeah, I really like my Layens. The only drawback is converting a Lang nuc to a Layens hive. Wish there were more sellers who have Layens nucs. Thanks BBB, been watching you for a minute.

[@BeeBoyBill]

I agree, I hope some day to sell Layens nucs locally once I develop my genetics some more.

[@timtation5837]

There are people that want to buy Layens nucs, it’s just a matter of more good keepers offering them for sale, (and being able to connect with those that wish to buy them). I plan to offer them for sale in the future. Not because I think I can make a ton of money, but because I want to see more options available to new bee keepers. I also plan to build new “well insulated” hives so the folks have more options (especially if they lack the carpentry skills). The main reason small keepers go with Langstroth hives is because that is all they have easy access to. Those of us that care enough about bees to house them in natural treatment free Layens hives can help others make better choices by simply making them available to more people.

[@CrazyIvan865]

I may have figured out a method for a fairly effortless transfer to the Layens from a Langstroth Nuc. If the nuc already has the hole for an entrance (or drill one if it does) just set it on a chair or something of the appropriate height and use a piece of pipe to go from the nuc, to whichever entrance you don't intend to use on the Layens. Basically a trap out. The bees have to travel all the way through the Layens to get outside. Bees HATE inefficiency and wasted energy about as much as Asians do. They're gonna build out those frames directly in front of the other entrance as soon as they can, and wrangle the queen to the new frames in front of the new entrance and exit. Then they shoukd use the drawn comb in the nuc to store nectar and honey. You just wait a little longer till it's capped, extract it and then send it back to the breeder or do whatever you want with it.

[@paulschaefer5241]

I am starting the the langstroth hive becasue that is what I can buy at this time. when I get more experience I intend to go to another system. To be fair thopugh when Brother Langstroth first wrote his book there was an entire chapter which has been omitted in the republication in the US where he explains the importance of 2" thick walls. I can clearly see why this is not done. even with onle 3/4 a 10 frame deep full of honey weighs close to 80 pounds.

[@raincoast9010]

Some good info here, nice to see you again.

[@BeeBoyBill]

Thanks rain coast!

[@theGhostPatRiot]

Great video; thanks for making it!

[@beverlystone4513]

Joel Salatin describes animal husbandry similarly. They stopped vaccinating and initially lost some animals. But now they have animal genetics that are strong and don't need vaccines to thrive.

[@rick5078]

If you want to sell bees and/or queens, you could always just use a divider board modified with a queen excluder to restrict the queen to a certain section of the horizontal hive as if you were using Langstroth hives. There are also methods of using Langstroth risers on top of horizontal hives or even easier, Dr. Leo's design for adapter frames that accept Langstroth frames inside of them.

[@rick5078]

pollinating you could also do with Dr. Leo's 6 frame or 7 frame layens swarm trap hives. You could also use his design for layens frame racks to store frames with extracted comb to build up a store of wax to render and make your own layens foundation sheets.

[@ronwilson330]

I agree about treating. Quit treating 3-4 years ago. Result: 20-30 % losses ie same as with chemical treadmill. Several hives have lasted 3 years before succumbing. In the “wild” this tracks the same way statistically. Natural swarming thus becomes a key factor in sustained bee survival. Some years more and some years less, but always bee colony survival in the long run. Tho too late this season will be using Layen method next year. Btw, zone 7b Delmarva peninsula.

[@citrumpet1]

I have standard langstroths, layens, long langs, apimaye and live in the north as well. Build my own stuff and have a universal extractor so frames aren't an issue. The long langs do well over winter.... All theories aside. I made mine out of 2x12 material with 2x4 cover boards. On all horizontals I use 2in foam follower boards covered in foil tape and always make sure to leave 3/4in space under for ventilation. Allow airspace on top of cover boards and above. Put shims on top and hinged the tops and added foam in the roofs. Also did that to the layens to avoid lifting tops off. Both the layens, long lang (2x12 Material) and apimaye overwinter well. The standard Langstroths are my 4th favorite.

[@BeeBoyBill]

Sounds like you've tried a lot. Which one is your favorite overall?

[@citrumpet1]

The long langs seem most prolific at producing bees for splits. The layens are as you said more self sustainable, hands off and less work overall. Steady performers. The langstroth is perhaps better for max honey production but doesn't overwinter as well especially with 1in walls unless further insulated which is a pain if you have a bunch of hives. That's just my opinion.

[@Palanthon]

My Long Lang was great for building up a colony during the summer. However, they didn't make it through the winter. My regular Lang did winter over, but it was in 2 deeps. The "single deep" size of the long lang just wasn't enough height for the bees in the winter to survive on. This coming winter I will have 3 Layens hives and the regular Langstroth. My mite counts going into winter were nearly zero so it wasn't a mite problem. Dead bees head first in the comb on spring inspection.

[@BeeBoyBill]

From what I can tell, bees usually die head first in winter because that’s how they cluster when cold. Thanks for your comment, I suspected long Lang’s would be hit or miss over winter depending on location.

[@Palanthon]

@@BeeBoyBill I'm in NE Wisconsin. Around Jan/Feb we had a deep freeze for about 15 days or so. Prior to that it was warm enough for me to check the hives briefly. The long lang appeared to be doing well. 15-20 days later it was dead. Could have been weather, but I suspect starvation. The frames that had bees still on them were nearly picked clean and frames further out still had full resources. I think it was too cold for them to seek those other resources out. I suspect a Layens frame would have resulted in a better result.

[@CrazyIvan865]

​@David Winther could you add a Lazutin/Double Deep langstroth box with 2-by of insulated walls onto the end of the Long Lang? That was the long Lang is just for honey stores, and the double deeps are for the brood chamber and winter cluster. Also, a packed insulated roof and no ventilation makes a hell of a difference for winter survival. It prevents condensation up top, and with it being Peaked in the middle, the air starts cooling out towards the sides, travels down the outer walls as it cools and condenses the moisture at the bottom. That air coming down the side walls helps to further buffer the cold from the walls, and the air rises up the middle as it gets pulled up by the rising warm air. When you have vents in the roof, your create a thermal vent that pulls air in the entrance and keeps pulling in more cold air. Now you can put a couple small vents, or a ridge vent in for helping to prevent the heat from pushing down into the hive during summer. But the bottom of the roof should be solid, no vents. There's a lot to it. I also posit that hives should ALWAYS be placed in an area where they get shade from trees that foliage out in spring, but defoliate in the fall. This is keeping with the bees natural environment. Shade in the summer, and part shade/sun in the winter.

[@harleydicken226]

This is just my opinion. Every person i watch always starts out saying they wont treat for mites and the bees need to figure it out. Nature produces species that wipe out other species, so we should just let that go without any intervention? I personally would love the bees to do it on their own, thats just not how it always goes. Good luck with the treatment free solution. Hopefully you can figure it out, but we also need to try to keep as many hives alive as possible, even if it is a natural pest management solution. Thanks for the videos my friend!

[@olddansbees2072]

Like the Layens will work on switch over thanks for vids.

[@johnnybigpotato2404]

I have been saying these things for decades. Been kicked out of many bee clubs. No treatments or feeds of any kind. The only problems bees really have are bee keepers. ;)

[@joebob1970jc]

Love your videos bro I have 2 layens hive and I'm going to build 2 more

[@BeeBoyBill]

Thanks JoJo, I appreciate it!

[@gregw3437]

So I have been doing the long hives for 6 seasons now (modified Layens). I will qualify some of this points of this video: - with single volume, uni-body hives you will "hit the wall" eventually - it is a good idea to allow for additional super on the top of the frames (which I do); strong colony will hit the wall on 20-frame Layens - not a problem; then what are you going to do? Well, I split. OR, I add a honey super on the top because I also can. - in my cold and long winter (WI) the bees still do hit the ceiling even with the Layens frames, and then you better be able to give them emergency dry sugar supplement; in my cold conditions, the bees will NOT move over onto the cold honey frames because that honey is as cold as ice and it is impossible to warm it for the bees. - the mite issues have nothing to do with the Layens hives; the location has most everything to do with the mites (but not the hive itself); in my location the bees in the Layens die very consistently and the same as in the Lang hives - that is WITHOUT treatments (which I tested for 5 years in a row)

[@mostfaelmasry249]

Good on you mate ☺️

[@davidpritchett855]

So at this point I do not have personal hives but I've been doing a ton of research. Since bees fill hives with honey from top to bottom when you add an over super with queen excluder to a langstroth hive the bees freak out and fill it as fast as possible. So if you just stuck 4 or 5 boxes on top the hive might kill itself from stress trying to fill those over supers and the queen not having access to honey and places to lay. What you are describing is actually how a Warre hive work where the bees are installed in the top box and as they move down boxes are added to the bottom so in winter they start at the bottom and slowly work up the stack from bottom to top. In a Warre hive you generally harvest once spring flow starts nice and heavy and you take most of the honey left from winter. The biggest disadvantage is you have to lift the whole stack to install a new box in the bottom which can mean lifting a 75-100lb stack of hives. Most folks get a pair of 2x4s and lift the stack by the 2x4s that are run through brackets on the side. I feel like langstroth was the most convenient for the keeper, Warre is the best for the bees and Layens strikes an excellent balance between the two.

[@CrazyIvan865]

I thought Warres stacked on top like Langstroths and the Pile Hives were the ones that you jack up and put boxes on the bottom for the bees to build down.

[@notapplicable531]

The irony. The hive he would hate is named after him.

[@cascades500]

Hey bee Bro Bill. Really like what you're doing. Do you have an insulated layens hive? And how has that worked as opposed to the 2x hive?

[@BeeBoyBill]

I don't have an insulated hive, I'd try one if I had one though!

[@pacrat1969]

I would NEVER go back to langstroth. My layens are so easy with no beetles or temp issues. The bees seem happier with the layens because i rarely have to go in the hive. Haters will always hate..

[@grendelcandy8760]

Love this site, no B.S. and always looking for easier ways to farm bees. I have one major peeve on most sites I see online . .Why don't you at least build wind barriers? or better still bee sheds! on your yards? Your looking for a shed that protects you apiaries from wind chill, keeps rain and snow from hitting your hives and ideally creating a sun/heat trap especially for early spring. I've seen huge sheds in Germany/Denmark, I've even seen one in Northern Sweden. That was amazing, it was suspended over a cow midden and part glazed like a greenhouse! The manure rotting generated heat and the south facing wall was glazed to let any heat into the shed. The smartest one I've seen had a roof that was folded back in the summer. I made one cheaply with some old garden fence panels, just make a right angle or curved wall of panels facing south ish but also away from the sites normal wind direction. Then just put a half or small panel pitched roof above the panels with the pitch facing outwards.

[@BeeBoyBill]

Hi Grendel. I suppose you could create the ultimate environment all year long. I’ve heard of sheds and keepers moving them to their basements for the winter. I don’t think this is the answer for me though, I’m searching for the genetics that survive without a lot of adaptations. They’ve been surviving for thousands of years trees just have to find the ones localized to your climate. Thanks for your comment!

[@grendelcandy8760]

@@BeeBoyBill in nature the hives are in thick insulated trees with other trees as wind breaks, and canopies above for shade/ rain protection. Or hives are in cliff walls with insulation/ protection against the elements built in .. so why wouldn't you copy nature? Also these apiaries are not in pristine clean conditions, they share these spaces with other insects and wildlife some of which are an aid to bees. Have you seen the information on how some Fungi seem to counteract the effects of varroa mites and common bee diseases? Have read a few reports by Dr. Paul Stamets that show great results and made total sense, to me at least. . .thanks for the prompt response too . .ttfn

[@spencergrant4906]

Great video

[@BeeBoyBill]

Thanks Spencer!

[@Kruszcontrol]

I've only got 1 hive (layens) so far but I agree with basically everything you said--my goal is also to expand this year as much as I can. The only thing I might differ on is doing mite counts. As long as I have the time, I think knowing the numbers would be good even if I'm not treating. It might be possible to track resistance over time with good numbers from all the hives. The other aspect of it, which I'm still a little hesitant about but I think it makes sense, is I think Randy Olivier said that it's a good idea to count mites even if you don't treat because, at a certain level of mites, the colony is already doomed for the winter and it would be better to euthanize the colony of you're not going to treat, because in the remainder of the year drift from the "mite bomb" colony could overwhelm nearby colonies, even naturally mite resistant ones. Apparently even strongly mite resistant bees can be overwhelmed if there is a heavily mite infested colony 6 feet away. It would be really tough to kill a colony, and I don't have to worry about it yet, but as I get more hives it does seem like counting mites is something that should be done. It would suck to have your locally adapted, mite resistant colony die because you put a weak colony right next to it in the bee yard. I think of it this way--in nature bees won't build a hive feet away from other colonies. Unless you can space your hives 100 feet apart, doing mite counts is a way for the beekeeper to mitigate that part of beekeeping that's "unnatural". Just something I've been thinking about.

[@BeeBoyBill]

Hey Andrew, thanks for the comment! I personally never count a colony out of the winter running until the Spring thaw. If that is something you want to track though, you could move a hive with a higher mite load to a different area. Mites bombs are kind of a controversial issue that I’m not sold on yet. Interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing!

[@CrazyIvan865]

I was reading something about a week ago about, yet another thing on the long list of reasons not to feed... someone was like "if we don't feed our bees through summer, they go nuts and chew and eat and kill all the brood. It's cruel not to feed during the dearth". Looking into that, I found this reason why not to feed in summer (winter, it's obvious, the food source is NOT what the bees need and increases disease and mortality). In summary, the bees go through 3 natural brood break a year. Winter, when there's almost no brood at all during clustering (there will be some to maintain population and some sources say they use it to basically trap excess moisture by making brood and beed. But only when needed), Spring when the population explodes and they're reproducing a new colony, and Summer, during the Dearth, they drag the freeloaders Drones out and abort most of the brood when nectar and pollen isn't available, then pick back up during the fall flow. So naturally, they have 3 or for (could also swarm in fall) where they're going through a brood break, where that mite repopulation will also be interrupted. Not entirely, no. But a significant amount. All these guys in Langstroths using queen excluders, preventing swarming and brood breaks, feeding during summer and winter, yada yada; as well as having them in comb that's almost 10% larger than natural cell size (takes longer for the larva to pupate, meaning more time for mite breeding)... no wonder mite bombs and mites get crazy out of hand. Also they all are adamant on defending wide open open entrances, thin vented covers/lids, etc... removing the ventilation and providing insulation (more closely adjacent to nature) doesn't have a huge effect on the mite counts, but it does have a small effect, as it's harder for the mites to live and breathe as easily in the higher moisture and CO² within the hive. The mites aren't as active in that 1.5% CO² and 50-70% relative humidity. Not to mention all the organic compound arosolizing off the nectar and acting as a fumigant within the hive. Apigard (thymol) comes from Thyme and a few other plants, Oxalic Acid comes from Brassicas (cabages, broccoli, etc), and don't let anyone tell you "the bees can't make oxalic acid out of oxalates" because they do, the digestive enzymes and various bacteria split the oxalates into free oxalic acid and free atoms of calcium, magnesium, zinc, copper, iron, and whatever other minerals are bound to the Oxalates. I feel mite tracking is important. But that "if it reaches 5% the hive is dead already"... I think Randy Oliver even touts that. It isn't true. I was watching a video about how to do a test that was from I think New Zealand and the guy showed the directions and there was a "treat/don't treat" scale by month... and like August was like 8% mites for the "don't treat" cut off for August... I don't believe all the "oh mites cause 90+% of winter die outs... I'm like "so you're telling me when there's almost no brood, mite repopulation is virtually zero and mites are dying faster than bees. The MITES are responsible for 90+% of die outs? Not in spring? Or fall" the indoctrination does not coincide with the simple facts of reality. I mean... how many people see a die out and send bees off for testing of Nosemosis, Dysbiosis/leaky gut (caused by sugar syrup), Thracheal mite infestation, CBPV, or any other disease, to get an accurate answer of what it actually was? I mean...

[@bza069]

What do you think about a Long Lang horizontal hive in Georgia with milder winters ?? Do you think you would need to use two walls or insulation to help them overwinter? thanks

[@BeeBoyBill]

Long Lang’s seem like a great idea if your winters are mild enough. I’ve never kept bees in the south, but it would seem to me that if they can make it up here in Lang’s, or in uninsulated Layens, they would probably do well further south. But that’s just an educated guess. Good luck!🤞

[@SylantBill]

With my age and health I am switching to horizontal hives.

[@Michael-yl2iq]

Bee Boy Bill do you fill the hive or use a divider board? If use a divider board do you seal it or leave it loose enough for bees to pass? My bees are bearding a lot on my Layens hives and wonder if I should allow more ventilation.

[@BeeBoyBill]

Hi M. I do use a follower on my full size hives until they get enough frames drawn. Once most of the frames are gone I don’t use the follower board anymore. The board is not sealed and the bees can get under it if they want and sometimes do hang out on the empty side. If you have the vent holes in the bottom and top as well as two entrances, they usually are pretty good at managing their environment. They do beard on really hot days to help move air through the hive.

[@Michael-yl2iq]

@@BeeBoyBill Thanks. I live in TN and my hives have had a lot of bearding. I know it is not necessary a bad sign but have had it for several weeks. So after listening to your comment I am opening my second entrance and allowing them to pass to the whole hive. Will wait and see if that helps reduce the bearding. Thanks again. I enjoy your videos (especially the ones that show you building the hives).

[@beverlystone4513]

What is your take on pseudoscorpions for mite control?

[@billc3405]

Everything you say is good but not treating for mites IMO is wrong if you mite check and your rate is over 3% it should be treated your putting the other hives in the yard in jeopardy along with all neighboring bee yards. I do feel there is over treating as well.

[@Lsmith-ly2cm]

Mites are no. 1 killer of bees period. Getting older I don't need the extra weight. thanks

[@SylantBill]

My mentor puts 3 honey supers on in april then walks away until july

[@brianwild4640]

maybe the one making it through winter the queen has the genetics to breed the winter bees fat enough and at just the right amount and time for your winter

[@benjamindejonge3624]

Layens hive made off mycelium is the best

[@muskyman26]

Best way to extract a layers frame without a spendy extractor? Go

[@BeeBoyBill]

Crush and strain!

[@muskyman26]

@@BeeBoyBill any way to do it and save comb?

[@BeeBoyBill]

I’ve seen some drip methods where the frames are uncapped and placed in a container upside down on a rack. The honey runs out into the container. I’ve never tried it so not sure how productive it is. Would probably need some sort of warmer to help it run out.

[@kyler6423]

Great,great,great mind set! I agree with you 100%. Nature knows best and that for billions of years! Who are we to try to manipulate all and everything. Yeah we can manipulate/adapt to our OWN needs and that is called evolving so let the the other creatures do the same. We need to stop to exploit other species for PROFITS! If we don't evolve to realize this then it will do us in eventually... LOL Our problem thinking is this...we invented the car to be able to move from A-B quickly without the work of maintaining horse. Perfect! Why does it have to be a Ferrari if a cheap car does the same? If you say because a Ferrari is faster then I say...speed limit! we got to stop WASTING resources. Beekeeping is no different! I f we need them to fertilize our crops then why are there not bee hives near every field and Orchard just for that...why do we have to MOVE them around?

[@trsloyer]

Bee Boy…. Where did you go??

[@mrpush2532]

Ok so you said you want your hives to mimmick nature as much as possible. You stated "the thicker sides of the layens" as one treat that makes it more.natural. However I see a contradiction then w a horizontal hive setup. In nature hives in tree cavities can be 2, 3, or 4 feet high. So bees "naturally" move upwards consuming stores during winter. With a layens, you are LIMITING UPWARD MOVEMENT. Yes, the layens frame is deeper than a lanstroff deep, about the same depth as a lanstroff deep.and medium. However that is a sever limitation in my opinion. I've had bees move through 2 deeps and two mediums in a single winter. Without that extra vertical stores they likely would have starved. I've never seen them move laterally! I always have unused stores left over on the sides. So are you telling me that bees who NATURALLY MOVE UPWARDS, are.going to mive.sideways in a horizontal hive? I just don't see it happening. That cluster during winter stays on a "ball" in the center of frames. Moving laterally seems HIGHLY UNLIKELY to me. If winter is unusually cold, well I would think death by starvation much MORE LIKELY in a horizontal hive. I never kept layens so I can't comment. Are you telling me layens clusters move laterally during the winter? Seems unlikely unnatural behavior to me. What zone are you in? As for the thickness of the layens, yes that's more natural. So what I've done is simply tack some 1.5" rigid foam boards on my hives and wrap in black landscape cloth in winter. Best result ever. Bees use way less stores because they just stay warmer. Next is ventilation. I believe that top ventilation in winter is a grave mistake! Would you leave you attic door open in the winter in your house? No way! All the heat would escape!! So.why would you do that in a bee hive? All you do is let all their heat escape and they use their fuel faster! Never do that! So people vent because of moisture issues. You don't want condensation dripping. So just like in nature simple INSULATE the top of hive well and close those vents!

[@huckleberry4487]

The natural environment is the entirety of the system. The deeper frames allows the queen's natural spiral laying pattern. When you have a double deep, you'll see the queen lay from the center (where the 2 boxes meet) outward. I think he explained his position on commercial (Langstroth) vs a more natural environment (Layens). If you believe the Langstroth is natural, then why not start with your 2 deeps and medium on top? A horizontal hive allows the bees to build the brood area and honey stores like they are genetically programmed and the queen will naturally only lay eggs in the brood area. You kind of contradict yourself by saying you've had bees go through 2 deeps and mediums in winter, then say you wrap your hives so they don't go through their stores. Venting is necessary for most hives, unless you use a quilt box for condensation. The cluster itself is where the warmth is, the cluster doesn't keep the box warm and if you put a thermal reader on your box to see the heat, they tend to stay toward the sunny side not in the center. Seeing as you say you don't keep a Layens, it seems you came here just to be argumentative not have a productive conversation or sincere questions.

[@mrpush2532]

@@huckleberry4487 Hi, not argumentative at all. I'm using logic. If I have had colonies move upward through 2 deeps and 2 mediums, they had a lot more stores. Without which they would have starved to death. These horizontal hives can't possible keep the colony alive that would use that much stores in a winter. My guess is that horizontals see way more winter kills for this very reason. If you have a breed thats more toward Italian bees, they naturally just use more stores. I've see natural hives with over 3 feet vertical. Verticle hives give colonies a much better chance of winter survival for this very reason, which you in fact limit with these horizontal hives. Your wrong above ventilation in winter. Ventilation removes heat. The heat you let escape must be replaced, consuming more stores. End is winter kills. Simply INSULATE the top of the hives and they will not have dripping condensation. They consume the condensation on The walls of the hive as well. It just can't drip on them. Bees naturally plug all upper vents if they exist in natural structure in the winter. Huh, why would they do that? Maybe because they r smarter that you are. Do what the bees do, not what you think works better. Can't tell you how many people I see say "my hive starved". I say "do you have open vents at top of hive? Their answer is almost always "um, yes, but I was told to do that! ". Not by the bees is my response! If you don't think That's quality conversation right there, not sure what to tell you. Maybe you r the close minded type?

[@capnspicy5565]

@@mrpush2532 I understand all sides of this, I don't personally believe there is a right or wrong type of "Hive", if it's designed for your environment and your bees use it, then it's a good hive. Bees in my area used to live in hollow apple tree branches that are more horizontal than vertical. So I don't think the bees care what direction it's in, if they hate the hive they will just abscond to a new home. If I hate a hives design, I will try to build a better one, the bees will let me know if my design sucked.