Beehive Frame Comparison: Langstroth vs. Layens vs. Lazutin

[@guillaumelafleche9477]

I enjoyed this presentation, gave me lots of ideas on how to improve my hive designs. Thanks for the inspiration.

[@wakingupcountry]

I live in a northern climate so the horizontal hive may be something I may need to do in the future. Thanks for breaking this down. I have always appreciated Dr Leo and his information for beekeeping. Thanks for sharing.

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

Dr. Leo is great and his seminar was invaluable to me. I was very happy with how well my Layens hives survived last winter and astounded at how little honey the bees used in the insulated hive.

[@SnoDog2112]

I stubbled across your video. I too have been reading Keeping Bees with a Smile (2nd edition) and I was wondering why Dr. Leo used a smaller Layens Frame than the Lazutin (or double deep Lanstroth) Frame. Thank you for adding that nugget of information. I live in Northern Idaho and Dr. Leo felt that the Layens frame would be suitable where I live since winter typically runs from mid to late Nov to March.

[@wendygrant2735]

Very good explanation. Informative, thanks for sharing.

[@almostagardener4549]

Great job I liked your video keep up the good work.

[@Michael-yl2iq]

Nice video explaining the differences. Another difference is the Langstroth frames are easier to top feed than Layens. You can use frame feeder in Layens but that means opening hive. Dr. Leo says you shouldn't need to feed bees. I have 3 Layens and 3 horizontal Langstroth hives, both work. Now thinking of switching all to Layens.

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

Thank you for your comments. I agree with Dr. Leo - as long as you are using local bees, in normal circumstances, you shouldn't need to feed. But a package/nuc purchased from outside of the local area will not be in sync with local nectar flows and may need supplemental feeding. As for the frame feeders, they can be put on the opposite side of the divider board from the frames and the bees will find it. So the feeder can be added/removed/refilled without exposing the bees. I fed during the dearth last summer/fall, and the bees had no problem finding the feeder on the other side of the board. I did not, however, give supplemental food over winter or this spring and the bees are doing well. This year I only expect to feed splits that lose their foragers; otherwise I plan to let the bees do what bees do.

[@Michael-yl2iq]

@@SuburbanSodbuster I have no scientific testing proof but my Layens seem to over winter better than my Langstroth. I will like to see more about your conversion hive. Thanks

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

I do think that, besides the benefit of the deeper frame, the typically thicker/insulated walls of the Layens hive are a huge benefit. Like you I have no scientific proof - only observation - but I noticed that the colony in my insulated hive had way more honey stores left at the end of winter than another colony in a converted Langstroth box. I also noticed that the insulated hive had much less interior condensation than those with thinner walls.

[@daveskura]

love it. Can you share your build/design plans for the horizontal hives you build ?

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

Most of my hives are built using the insulated 20 frame hive plans that Dr. Leo provides on horizontalhive.com.

[@kensomerville]

Great Info as always my friend. :)) Was just asked today to do a presentation on the 6th on the Layens, in Canada, so a bit colder up in the North. lol Anyway, I'm going to record the presentation, so others can learn, about the benfits of the Layens for the cold Canadian climate, will pass on the link once I have it uploaded so you can share it, for anyone following you that lives in a colder climate. Not a lot of difference in the base construction but insulated with the sheep's wool makes all the difference in the cold and can help with the heat for you guys that are down south. Anyway my friend keep them coming, information and knowledge are great but you have a talent of explaining the why you want to do it this way, and that is what people need to get is the why. :))))

[@karenwilliams5724]

Got a link to your presentation?

[@itsallaboutthebiology]

@@karenwilliams5724 kzbin.info/www/bejne/q3rSo2qmg5aSpqM

[@beebob1279]

25 years keeping bees. I never had a colony die or starve because they couldn’t cross over from a bottom frame to the top frame. This would only happen if the cluster was small. As for the Layens hive. I’m converting over because of aging joints. A great way for beekeepers to keep their hobby.

[@DavidKirwanirl]

Lots of questions answered that I had thanks!

[@Jos-scifiwriter]

Very interesting 👍🥰 tremendous stuff, thanks from central Otago southern New Zealand 👋🥝

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

Thank you, and thanks for watching!

[@jasonsaxon2309]

Thank you! This was very helpful.

[@thazen73]

I have been on the fence when it comes to what hives to buy. I watched this and now have a honey dew list for the husband to make the layens hive. Thank you so much for the info

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

I'm glad to hear that this was helpful. If you haven't already, you might also watch my video "Why I Prefer the Layens Beehive (and you might, too)" which dives more specifically into what I see as the benefits of the Layens horizontal hive.

[@thazen73]

@@SuburbanSodbuster thank you. I will watch for sure.

[@shakamuni01]

If there are no honey supers on this how would you exclude the queen on a horizontal to make honey. I thought that was functionally necessary.

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

In a horizontal hive the bees will typically keep brood close to the entrance. In a Layens hive the first 6-7 frames are usually brood with honey stores after that. Sometimes bees follow this to the letter; sometimes they spread the brood out. When that happens I'll put the queen back in the brood end and a full honey frame as the 8th frame. The queen usually won't cross a honey frame to lay more brood. If necessary, an excluder can be cut to fit and inserted between frames vertically - although I've never used an excluder in my Layens hives.

[@benjamincaro1574]

Bonjour, je suis de France et je suis heureux que la ruche de layens revienne à la mode. Personnellement j'utilise des ruches Voirnot qui sont adaptées à ma région, des ruches warré avec cadres et une nouvelle ruche einraumbeute qui vient d'allemagne qui ressemble dans sa conduite à la de layens horizontale. Merci pour vos vidéos même si j'ai du mal à suivre l' anglais.

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

Merci pour vos commentaires. (Veuillez pardonner toute mauvaise traduction - je ne parle pas français mais j'utilise Google Translate) Je ne connais pas beaucoup de ruches utilisées en Europe, à l'exception de Warre et, bien sûr, de Layens. J'apprécie vos commentaires et vous souhaite bonne chance. Vive Georges De Layens !

[@danielpidgeon7672]

Hey Mr Sodbuster. Looking at getting into bees, trying to learn the best hive to start with for later success. You talked about tweaking a Lazutin hive to be able to use Langstroth frames in order to use a mechanical extractor, but then never detailed if you ended up able to spin the Layen frames. Were you successful there? Have you, or anyone you know, tried your idea of Langstroth frames joined together to put into a Lazutin hive and separate them to spin them, but used them on their side so the bees can go all the way down and up in their ball?

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

I originally built a horizontal Lazutin/Double-deep Langstroth hive. Because the Lazutin and Langstroth frames are the same width the dimensions are easy but making supports and accessing the 2nd (lower) level of Langstroth frames is not. Plans from horizontalhive.com use a door on the ends to access the lower frames; I adapted the design and routed vertical slots which could be used to access, insert and remove the lower level of frames. After all that I never used the hive for Langstroth or Lazutin frames. After talking to Dr. Leo Sharashkin about it, and seeing him demonstrate the simplicity of the Layens hive, I converted that hive to use Layens frames and it's now my "Taj Mahive" which is seen in some of my videos. Some have built deeper Layens hives and adapted Langstroth medium frames, hanging two frames vertically, side by side. Personally I don't like any sort of hard division along the frames, either horizontally or vertically. If I were to use the deeper hive I would just build deeper layens frames (which is the Ukranian style) for continuous comb. But that deeper comb is mostly beneficial for colder northern regions.

[@BrianJMader54476]

I’m in Wisconsin, really thinking about going with Lazutin frames

[@beebob1279]

Probably best for naturally drawn comb honey. Who cares about extracting issues. They are cool frames

[@bradgoliphant]

Hello. I just found your channel and am so glad I did. I truly believe in longer frames. All my hives are double deep Flow Hives, which are Cedar Langstroths, yet which house Fran’s that are 18.5” deep!!!!!

[@anthonypayne6032]

I just built a Langstroth horizontal hive and I live in North Idaho and finished it look at it and thought this ain't gonna work. Keep in mind I have my first two nuc's coming. I too have the book keeping bees with a smile. The bees I ordered are coming on 5 Langstroth deeps nine inch. I have one horizontal hive made from the book. I thought if I build another that fits Langstroth I can just put the frames in and be good. But no I see it's a hive for the south with no sub zero temps. looking to modify it to have a hybread frame. I'm trying to understand the gap and why it is what it is and to make things workout. I'm glad I found you channel. I'm looked and the horizontal have as I'm bent and broke from construction. and want to have bees on the homestead. A friend called me a dirt worshiper. i'm going to have to make a modification to the frames to get them into my one hive box.

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

Yes, I'm sorry to agree that a horizontal Langstroth hive (assuming you mean one level of frames) would be generally inadequate to overwinter the bees where you live. I've seen some in the Southeast US, where winters are much milder, who had their long Langstroth hives starve out. But the good news is that what you built could be easily adapted for taller frames by building an extension on the top, and if you opted to go the Layens route you could build spacers for the sides, which could also be insulated. This would be very similar to what I did with my conversion hive - in fact you might take almost the same approach (videos are on my channel). Then you could put your frames from the Nucs right next to the deep frames, without modifying the Langstroth frames. Whatever approach you take, good luck on your beekeeping journey.

[@kensomerville]

@Anthony Payne I agree with Sodbuster, also you can check out another youtube channel, Of grid with doug and stacy, they had Dr. Leo out and he shows how he converts the Lagstroth to Laynes, in a simple process. You can find it in the bee play list.

[@earlgile7414]

Could you tell me the ideal size hive for a Laynes hive. Dr. Leo talks about a 14 frame hive a lot but I want to make sure I have a big enough hive box for my area

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

My personal preference is for a 20 frame insulated hive. You can always make the space smaller with divider boards, but you can't make a small space larger and once the bees run out of space you must keep on top of management (replacing full frames with empty) or they'll swarm - as my 12 frame did last year. A very productive colony could fill a 20 frame but it's typically plenty of space.

[@earlgile7414]

@@SuburbanSodbuster Thank you very much I have been struggling with going with a 14 or 20 frame Layne's for awhile now but I am definitely switching over from Langstouth to Laynes

[@earlgile7414]

@@SuburbanSodbuster do you use a insulated hive or solid wood. And if you use an insulated hive what do you use for insulation. Thank you for all your help and I really enjoy your videos I find them informative

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

I use insulated hives (with a few exceptions). My hives have ventilated lids but I plan to switch to insulated lids, as well. I use either sheep's wool (when I can get it) or rock wool for insulation.

[@chadashton7029]

So, how would it work to do a Lazutin brood box but in an 8 or 10 frame size like a Langstroth, then add on honey supers using standard medium frames? That way you only have a single brood box which would be easier to inspect, but obviously the negative of still having to handle potentially heavy mediums full of honey. I'm just thinking about the benefits of overwintering with extra deep brood frames and the added bonus of only needing to inspect 8 or 10 frames vs. 16 or 20 frames.

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

I've thought about doing the same thing in my Langstroth hives and think the larger, continuous comb of the Lazutin frames would provide a good brood area and easier overwintering.

[@kevinfick3347]

another good video. I think Dr Leo is in Douglas co. Are you near there?

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

I'm closer to St. Louis.

[@DonnaSchultz-us6hx]

We are switching from Langstroth to Layen horizontal hives. We have an abundance of brood frames. Can they be wired tied together - bottom to bottom (trimming and narrowing the top piece of wood now as the new bottom frame)? Will the bees build their brood comb continually from the top brood frame to the bottom brood frame? Is it possible to create a closed "top bar" effect by nailing a length of lath wood to the top piece of the newly created double brood frame?

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

It's possible, but I'd have a couple concerns. One is that the bees build their comb with the cells angled down toward the middle, so if the bottom comb is turned upside down then the cells will be sloped in the opposite direction. Also, attaching the frames together would create a division between the comb on top and the comb on bottom. A better option, I think, would be to cut the ends off of the Langstroth frames so that the center portion of the comb will fit within a Layens frame and remove the bottom bar. Then attach the cut out comb inside of a Layens frame by running screws through the Layens top bar into the Langstroth top bar. This will leave space below the existing comb for the bees to build new comb. Of course, there are many ways of re-using the comb and, given some time, I could probably think of multiple variations myself. But, what I describe above will keep the comb and the angle of the cells in the original orientation - and not introduce a division in the middle of the frame.

[@TheRainHarvester]

I'm in central Texas. Could i use actual langstroth frames in a corresponding-size horizontal box?

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

Sure - a lot of people use horizontal Langstroth hives.

[@offgridco]

Nice video. Thanks.

[@trevormcnutt9756]

Can you buy a Nuk of bees Langstroth and force them in a layens hive ? I saw Dr. Leo cut and screw the Langstroth to the layens frames but was wondering if theres a easier way as a beginner...

[@jdogsbad]

Yes I want to use the Long hive but building different frames lor buying them is going to be a pain or expensive so is there a way to use my regular deep frames ?

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

Many people do use horizontal (long) Langstroth hives. Horizontal hive management is similar regardless of the frames but, depending on your location, over-wintering could be more of a challenge.

[@aanadyia4582]

Loved this, thank you! How many frames do you recommend buying or building a Layens hive to hold? Would be nice to be able to do splits in one box like you’re doing but what happens when they both expand, will a 20 frame hold 2 colonies or is better to go bigger.

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

I prefer a 20 frame hive - it seems to give plenty of space for a typical colony for the year. Although I use them for splits, it's a temporary space for two colonies and eventually one will have to be moved out.

[@cherylhurley7401]

Question saw your video on the deep frames is there a special processes for extracting honey from these long frames thanks

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

I see that you found an answer, but I'll go ahead and give mine for any detail it might add. There are extractors available for the Layens frames. They're not as readily available in the US as Langstroth extractors, but the market is growing. The process for extraction is the same - remove the wax cappings and spin the frames in an extractor to draw out the honey. There are no extractors, to my knowledge, for the deep Lazutin frames. Some have made these frames by connecting two Langstroth deep frames together, then separating them for extraction. Others have used hive designs (which I think I mention in this video) that can use two levels for Langstroth frames alongside the deeper Lazutin frames - using the Lazutin frames for brood and Langstroth for honey. Without an extractor, other options are comb honey or crush & strain - literally crushing the comb and straining out the honey, leaving the wax and other particles behind.

[@bradbrown2168]

I’ve built my Layens hive w 2 by wood and have a 2 “ gap for insulating my long walls. It’s a 4ft long unit for my homestead. Not finding wool so thoughts on fiberglass or cellulose? Also thoughts on air gap across bottom. Thx

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

I opted not to use 2x lumber for my hives when I researched the relative R values. Wood has an average R factor of about 1.25 per inch, so 2x lumber (nominal 1.5") only has an R value of about 1.875. I have used rockwool insulation batts in some of my hives, which has an R value of about 3 per inch - more than twice as efficient as wood. The batts are pretty easy to split to fit in the 1.5" space in Dr. Leo's insulated hive design. Wool has just a slightly higher R value than rockwool but, as you mention, it's not always as available. Once I considered the insulation to weight ratio, I stuck with insulated hives built with plywood, using wool when I can; rockwool otherwise.

[@bradbrown2168]

@@SuburbanSodbuster it 2 by with insulation pocket on long side.

[@amgrossenteich]

Hallo! In Spain they use the 12-frame layens hives and put some half or third frame boxes on top of that. I wonder how the bees can move if the frames are all together on the first level?

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

When using supers the frames must either have gaps in between, or space must be left on the end(s) for the bees to move past the frames. I'm not a fan of using supers on the Layens hive, but that's my opinion.

[@amgrossenteich]

Well I would prefer a 20-frame hive, but I cannot get them here in Portugal. The 14-frame hives appeared to me to have too less space, thus I might opt now for the 12-frame hives with supers on top if needed. Thanks for your reply!

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

How handy are you with basic woodworking? Plans are available on Dr. Leo's site horizontalhive.com to build 20 frame hives, both the insulated version as well as a simple solid-wood version. Measurements are imperial so would need to be converted for metric.

[@amgrossenteich]

I thought about it, unfortunately, right now I am not in the situation to work on it. I just moved, with three Mini Plus hives, to Portugal one month ago, lacking basic things like electricity water cooking facilities etc..I got a place for the bees and will move them by the time the new hives arrive. Spring has started thus, I think the bees will be busy already ... Hope everything goes well this year and, I can plan in this respect for next year ... Thank you!

[@brendawydeven2934]

I have top bar hives. Some with shallow comb and some with deeper comb. Ones with deeper comb survived winter in Wisconsin. I got rid if the ones with shallow combs. I would have layens, but I can't lift the frames.

[@raincoast9010]

Some very interesting comments.

[@s.fla.beekeepingmangoesand1517]

Ironically this video pushed me closer to building a long lang. Winter isn't a big issue in South Florida.

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

Georges de Layens said: "...pick the hive model that is best matched to your locale, populate it with local bees, and the results will speak for themselves." Based on your locale, the long lang may be a great fit.

[@nickd5943]

Thank you for comparing frame size and the why of the sizes. However I have a question you might be able to answer, at least your opinion. I live in East Texas my winters are not cold for long typically. It is very normal in the winter months to have a few days in a row with temps in the mid fifties to mid upper sixties during the day. Do the bees break cluster and go for the honey stores on the outer frames? Im asking this question because I want to get back into bee keeping and I do have shoulder and wrist problems. And I feel that the Lanstroth frame would fit my needs, but not sure if they would fit the bees needs. What are your thoughts on this? Also it’s difficult to lift more than fifteen lbs above nipple line for me.

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

Yes, when the temps rise above 50 degrees (sometimes below) the bees will break cluster, take cleansing flights, and can access resources in other parts of the hive. In general I think the deeper frames are beneficial for the bees in any climate, but are less necessary for over-wintering in a warm climate. Because of your difficulty lifting over 15 lbs, Layens may not be a good option as a full honey frame can be slightly more that that. As you say, Langstroth frames may fit your needs and could work well for you in a horizontal hive. Plans for these are on horizonalhive.com or you might check out some of the hives built by Horizontal Bees (@horizontalbees3480). Another option you might consider, depending on your objectives, is a top bar hive. Bee Mindful, LLC (@beemindful1027), from Austin, TX, specializes in these hives and has plans on their website: Bee-Mindful.com

[@opreanpetru279]

​@@SuburbanSodbuster😊

[@ArmandoBermudez-rd2tc]

How and where do you put a queen excluder in that box?

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

A plastic queen excluder could be cut and put, vertically, into a horizontal hive. Alternately, the middle of a divider board could be cut out and covered with queen excluder screen. I have yet to use an excluder in my Layens hives, though. The bees usually put brood on 6-7 frames nearest to the entrance, then honey on the frames farther out. Sometimes a queen will extend her brood farther than desired; when I find that I'll try to find the queen, put her on the 1st or 2nd frame, and add a full honey frame as a divider. The queen is unlikely to cross the honey frame to lay brood beyond.

[@ArmandoBermudez-rd2tc]

Thank you for the explanation.

[@horizontalbees]

I really like the larger Frames for the bees 🐝.

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

I think the bees do, too! 😊

[@crazypeoplearoundtheworld304]

​@@SuburbanSodbusterwhy? You honestly think that's a factor for the bees?

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

@@crazypeoplearoundtheworld304 deep frames allow the bees to build comb naturally - continuous from the top down as they would in the wild. Langstroth hives, with segmented comb between boxes and expectation for bees to build at the bottom first, then on comb added above, are markedly unnatural.

[@crazypeoplearoundtheworld304]

@@SuburbanSodbuster you're being really silly.

[@mellarius188]

I found your explanation clearly delivered - thank you. Hope you will entertain my questions re. Layens hive. How have you overcome the non-standard frame size for honey processing? Do you think this style of hive will suit a temperate climate (climate zone 6)? One of the appealing aspects of the proportion of the frame is that it provides beekeepers a clear visual demonstration of the composition of the nest over the season. All the best, From Melbourne Australia ❤

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

Thank you for you comment. I'm glad to respond to your questions: For honey processing I use a "Regata" model extractor made by SAF in Italy. This is a tangential extractor which holds 3 Layens frames but can also hold Langstroth frames. The extractor is basically the same as a 9 frame radial extractor made by SAF, just with a different basket. One great thing about an insulated Layens hive, like those for which plans are given on horizontalhive dot com, is that insulation helps to moderate hot temperatures as well as cold. One thing I think I will change in the future is to insulate, rather than ventilate the hive roofs, but the hives themselves are useful for multiple climates. I do like that the deep frames provide a full picture of the brood pattern, rather than having brood and resources spread vertically across frames and boxes. But what I like even more is that the deep frames, using just a starter strip at the top, provide a platform for the bees to build comb from the top down, then expanding horizontally to build adjacent comb on the next frames, similar to how they would in a natural hive.

[@mellarius188]

@@SuburbanSodbuster Thank you for answering my questions. It has convinced me to build a layens hive. Now to scavenge for some timber!

[@ЮрийЖуков-ш9г]

Very interesting, tell me about the Dadan hive.

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

I don't have any experience with the Dadant hive. From what I've read they're similar to Langstroth but a couple inches deeper.

[@ЮрийЖуков-ш9г]

@@SuburbanSodbuster In Ukraine, 90% of hives are Dadans.

[@George-ro6bw]

Very informative explanation of hive design pros and cons. Your video was timed just right for me. I am in the planning stage of building hives. My biggest concern was how to over winter the bees here in north west Ohio. I believe the Layens design will work well in this area. Have you captured any wild colonies?

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

Yes and no. My swarm trapping was unsuccessful, but I did trap a colony out of a local tree, and most of my apiary is populated with splits from that colony. I pieced together a video about that trap-out here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jpCwlK2DZa2Kfs0.

[@beebob1279]

You could run Langstroth if you wanted. How are your shoulders and your back. Learn to lift the boxes correctly. If you have issues with your shoulders, back, etc. then go with the other one

[@jonathandangers5009]

Insulation makes a huge difference for overwintering in cold climates-preferably breathable insulation such as wool so as not to trap moisture

[@donacorbett323]

Wonderfully explained. Answered a LOT of my questions. One more inquiry though......Does Florida need the deepness of a Layens do you think? Or do you think the bees would be ok with the shallower Langstroth.? It's "winter" right now here and I'm wear a T-shirt and sandals as we speak.

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

Thank you! I'm glad this was helpful. The necessary depth of the frames depends on how long the bees will go without nectar forage during the winter. You would know your climate better than I, but I suspect that you have a very short period of time - if at all - when nothing is blooming. At least much shorter than our winter dearth here in Missouri. I suspect that deep Langstroth frames may be adequate for you. On the other hand, there's little downside (from the bees' perspective) to deeper frames.

[@timtation5837]

I think the Langstroth design is lacking in all aspects (from the perspective of the bees). While the wintering in Flori-duh will not be an issue, everything else is… Deep horizontal hives are much better for the bees, but are much worse for commercial bee keepers… Happy bees are healthier and have fewer pest issues (and healthy bees never eat sugar).

[@ThoneJones]

Is there any difference in honey yield?

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

Some say yes, some say no. Many will say vertical hives produce more honey; Georges de Layens, himself, said that his horizontal hives produced more than his vertical hives. Personally I think a given colony of bees is going to store a certain amount of nectar regardless of the dimensions and orientation of their hive. The difference in our harvests is more a factor of management practices. For example: A colony allowed to build up naturally in the spring will store less honey vs. a colony manipulated, by feeding, to grow very large. Harvesting only the surplus honey reduces overall yield vs. harvesting all available honey and feeding to make up the loss. I prefer to keep my bees in more natural ways, without supplemental feeding and harvesting only the surplus, so I accept smaller harvests. Someone who uses vertical hives, following conventional practices, could compare our results and say their hives produce more. But the difference, I think, is more in the management than the box.

[@maryannlivingston3929]

no mods on the layens frame so it will fit in extractor?

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

No modifications to the frame, but a Layens extractor can process Langstroth frames as well as Layens.

[@wildcard328]

sorry for what most will consider a dumb question. but I am trying to learn how to be a great beekeeper (I do not yet have any) I noticed on the Lazutin frame you did not have the foundation to the bottom. Is this by design or just it was not added to the bottom? if by design, why?

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

I have started using less foundation on my frames, leaving only a starter strip. Below that I let the bees build comb naturally.

[@pmlm1571]

So few beekeepers on utube are into the Layens, but I'm a total convert having seen Dr. Leo set up, install bees, maintain, inspect and evaluate status on numerous Layens hives (I found all this on the offgrid w Doug and Stacey channel). It seems to be the best overall way to go, and too bad we in the U.S. are so invested in the Langstroth--suited to commercial guys with forklifts and a warm warehouse or relocation to warm climate over winter. Love your explanation and your evaluation. Too bad the Layens honey extractor is so pricey...

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

After 2 years of keeping in Layens, and a year of attempting to establish a colony in a Langstroth hive, I'm even more convinced of the benefits. I plan to make a future video on the topic, but in a nutshell the bees seem to take to the Layens hive, where they build continuous comb from the top down (as they would in nature), much better. I can't claim that issues I've had are specifically because of the Langstroth hive - and I plan to continue keeping in both for the experience - but the 20% of my hives which are Langstroth take the greatest percentage of my time spent working with the hives. As for the extractor, when compared to equivalent Langstroth extractors, the price really is very comparable. I believe the SAF Regata extractor, with Layens frame basket, is essentially the same as the SAF Natura with a radial 9-frame basket (for shallow and maybe medium Langstroth frames). But the baskets can also be purchased separately and swapped, if someone really wanted to. So yes, compared to a discount 3-frame extractor on Amazon, the Layens extractors seem expensive. But compared to other 9-frame Langstroth extractors, the price is pretty equivalent - and with the Layens basket you can also extract Langstroth frames of any size.

[@pmlm1571]

@@SuburbanSodbuster So if we compare apples to apples, the Layens extractor is price comparable and as a side benefit can all spin one's Langstroth frames as well as the Layens ones. Thanks for the info.Happy Beekeeping!

[@aceshr9499]

Can you give me the dimensions for changing to the Layens I built a long hive using two double deep frames connected is an actually worked out very good so I’m going to use your idea and convert it to Layens hive

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

The standard outside width of a Layens frame, as per Dr. Leo's website, is 12 15/16 inches. So adding 3/4" to that to give 3/8" bee space on each side would give an internal width of 13 11/16" I would probably go up by 1/16 and use 13 3/4" as the internal width for layens frames. When I converted my large hive ("Taj Mahive") from a double deep langstroth/lazutin hive I permanently built out the sides to hold the Layens frames. If I had it to do over again I probably would have build adapters like I did for my conversion hive. See how I did that on this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bWiuaWqFbt98Zsk

[@mrsleann-kennedy4125]

I am new to keeping. I don’t actually even have my bees yet. Spring. I am in Kansas and that is my thought to make a longhive out of standard hives by connecting them. I would love to see what you have done. I’m so new that I am not sure my plans are viable.

[@aceshr9499]

@@mrsleann-kennedy4125 I did that last year. It was harder and never worked really well Much better just to build the hive.

[@aceshr9499]

@@mrsleann-kennedy4125 I live near Smith Center Ks

[@cherylhurley7401]

I got the answer I was looking for you said it im a a new bee lots of stuff to learn

[@maggiewatte7911]

I’m going to give a lazutin and layens hives this year. I’m on south central Idaho.

[@igounfazed]

Would have been nice to see some measurements.

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

Thanks for watching. I understand that this video might not have been as detailed as some would like. Please consider that this unscripted video was the first beekeeping content I made and posted to KZbin, before this channel really existed, as a way to explain beehive frame differences to my interested friends. This version is an update to try to improve the audio because the original was very difficult to hear. I had no idea of how relatively popular it would become. Since then I've tried to improve my videos in terms of usefulness of content.

[@nkapiariesjeffbeezos796]

I just use Lazutin in a six frame box and put six frame medium or deep supers on top. Six frame boxes are easy to handle for most people. The six frame Lazutin is less likely to swarm than a layens also.

[@TheRainHarvester]

Are bees more angry when in horizontal hives?

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

I don't think so at all. If anything, because hive inspections are less of a disturbance to a horizontal hive than vertical, the opposite might be true. But I work both Layens horizontal hives and Langstroth, and while I prefer the Layens I don't think the hive, itself, is a significant factor for the bees' temperament.

[@TheRainHarvester]

@@SuburbanSodbuster i was thinking of using regular langstroth frames in a horizontal hive. But the ceiling would have gaps... So I'm not sure if it would be worth it. I could add a solid ceiling, which gets removed for inspections, but then the bees are exposed.

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

@@TheRainHarvester a horizontal Langstroth hive will usually have some sort of cover over the frames, either cover boards or inner cover(s) under the lid.

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

@@TheRainHarvester if you're considering building your own there are long Langstroth plans available on horizontalhive.com.

[@mikem1956]

So how do you process layens? Thanks

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

Layens frames do require a larger extractor than Langstroth, and because it's a smaller market they are not as widely available and typically more expensive. However, I got my (3 frame) Layens extractor (SAF Regata) for about the same price as a Mann Lake 3 frame Langstroth extractor, and while the Langstroth extractor can't process Layens frames, a Layens extractor can typically process either Layens or Langstroth. Another method is to cut out and crush the comb. I don't favor this approach because that's comb the bees have to rebuild. But it's necessary if foundationless frames are used or if someone doesn't want to purchase an extractor.

[@mikem1956]

@@SuburbanSodbuster really sucks if you have already purchased all other equipment.

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

@@mikem1956 I understand the frustration, but it's also an opportunity. Langstroth boxes can be repurposed, in a couple ways, to hold Layens frames. See my video on how I built a "conversion hive" (kzbin.info/www/bejne/bWiuaWqFbt98Zsk) to see how I made adapters to hang Layens frames in Langstroth boxes. Also, considering the large number of keepers who use Langstroth equipment, there's always a resale opportunity.

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

Something else I've thought about is that the Lazutin frames could be used in stacked Langstroth deep boxes, providing a continuous space for over-wintering. There are other benefits of insulated, horizontal hives that this doesn't address, but it can give keepers of Langstroth boxes the ability to benefit from deep frames while still retaining the use of Langstroth equipment for honey harvest.

[@nickford5549]

You could give the kid credit for the frame if your going to show his work. The dowel center bar is a stout modification along with a sliding dovetail design

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

The plans for the double-deep frames came from horizontalhive.com, based on the frames used by Fedor Lazutin. The dowel center bar is an adaptation from the foundationless Layens design on the same website. Lazutin was using these frame dimensions and the plans were available long before David Stout was making frames and hives on the same dimensions, and I'd made these frames and a double-deep hive (and this video) before I ever saw David Stout's videos.

[@alexk6745]

I like layens but what I do not like is that not great in terms of controlling the wax moth and other pests. Right now I have the chance to save equipment not to be eaten by wax moth larva by pitting into a chest freezer. You can't do that with a layens hive. I think the ideal hive is using 2 eight frames boxes like full deep and WSP. Create frames for brood with the height of sum deep + WSP. Approx 400mm instead of 230mm. Use 8 frames deep for supers. Do frame swaps so that both 8 frames boxes have mixture of full frames and empty frames to make them easier to manage. Once frame is caped take it out. It might be more involved than professionals do. But as a hobby to have some honey this could work.

[@johnsimeon8080]

Lazutin bive produce more honey than any other time of hive in world?

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

Lazutin hives, like Layens hives, are typically managed more for the benefit of the bees, with less manipulation by the keeper, and not so much to maximize honey production. With natural beekeeping methods (harvesting only the surplus, avoiding supplemental feeding, etc.) as practiced by Lazutin and Sharaskin, honey production is probably less. But ultimately, all inputs being equal, the honey production will be more dependent on the honeybee colony and environment than on the hive type.

[@andrewklahold2880]

I have watched a lot of house removals when bees are in the wall comb is built long ways to the studs then comd section cross to the other stud same as in the celling joist pretend the celling is a long hive how do they build in the celling they build long ways the comb sections right to left i seen lots of videos on the long hive instead of putting the frames in cross ways run the frames long way as they do in a celling istbein dofrestonen

[@stevegertz2148]

I’ve never heard of a colony starving because they wouldn’t cross over from a bottom to top frame.

[@SuburbanSodbuster]

I've seen a few videos of spring inspections in which a cluster was found dead at the top of frames, starved out, with honey frames just above them. But I don't recall any in which the keeper recognized the issue. Most were just puzzled. But I'm sure this depends on climate and would be more likely in locales with longer, colder winters.

[@markspc1]

The Langstroth beehive have been in use for more than 160 years. It is the most used beehive design in the U.S., Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Asia, etc. If you are having troubles with your bees it is not the fault of the Langstroth beehive. I respectfully disagree with your statement that Langstroth beehive cannot be used by old people. Some beekeepers stack their colonies up to 8 boxes, ah, and they are all deep boxes, not half frames as you mention. People that uses half frames for their honey supers are from areas that the nectar flow is very short so they would not end up with half capped honey frames. Also I don't agree that you have to lift the honey supers, well there is no need to go into the brood box/boxes during the nectar flow. So your statement of having to lift a bunch of honey supers is a null point. In nature bees always build up, like inside of a tree log. You may force the bees to go horizontally but it is not natural. And another disadvantage of a horizontal hive is that you are limited on how many honey frames your hive can produce. During the spring when beehives are growing and wanting to swarm if you have a Langstroth beehive all you do is tilt the box so you can see if there are any swarm cells, and that you cannot do with a horizontal hive. I have never seen a commercial beekeeper use a horizontal hive in his/hers bee yard. So if you want to experiment with horizontal hives I have no qualms with that, just don't demonize the Langstroth beehive that people have been using successfully for more than 160 years.

[@willanderson5088]

They won’t break cluster because they’re cold. Insulate your hives and see what happens. We’ve changed bees to make them better at what we want out of them. Honey. They have huge problems surviving in thin wood boxes when it gets cold. Plenty of studies proving this. Also we loose honey bees and we are fine. They’re very picky pollinators and hinder most others.

[@NevadaBeeMan-nq3po]

Looks like these are only for hobbits… They would never work at a commercial/migratory level

[@markupton3482]

Listening to you is very difficult - Ten words where one will do... "Resource" is also called food.

[@apveening]

There are other resources than food.