Beethoven, 32 Variations in C Minor WoO 80, Historical Tempo Reconstruction, Wim Winters, Fortepiano

Ludwig van Beethoven: 32 Variations in C Minor, WoO 80, played by Wim Winters on a 2019 copy of an 1816 Johann Fritz Pianoforte.
0:00 Introduction
2:05 Beethoven 32 Variations C Minor WoO 80
Recording in the framework of experimenting with historical tempo information.
Here: tempo after Carl Czerny (1791-1856) as given in his pianoforte School opus 500: quarter note = 88
Metronome Number read in WBMP (Whole Beat Metronome Practice). Not sure what this is? Click here: • How Fast did Beethoven...
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[@AuthenticSound]

Welcome everybody to yet another video/recording here on Authentic Sound. Feel free to share your impressions and thoughts with this community. Be inspired by a great community, but keep the conversation nice. All we ask for is that you don't hit Enter for a message you would not say in person. It'll make this place even so much better. Here's a quick reminder to our community guideline rules: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g4SnlGieh71rnsk

[@gamingmusicandjokesandabit1240]

Can you suggest that those who think you're playing too slow try increasing this speed doubly?

[@benalkan8559]

WoO!

[@danielmbarragan]

I remember playing this when I was studying at the university. It used to seem boring to me, but there were a few variations which I just could never get right. I thought I liked Beethoven, but thanks to this channel, I am now quite obsessed. Now I am working on a huge project, initially as an experiment, but now, as a sort of "tribute" to thank you for basically changing and challenging my whole perspective on classical music.

[@kennithnichol]

Although I am a pianist, I am not familiar with this work. Your own initial reaction that it was too slow, in my opinion was simply due to previous exposure to a single-beat reading. It does not sound to slow to me on first exposure. That first variation was already a perfect spring-pad for the rest. This is so enlightening to listen to, it is opening a world of affections. Poly-rhythms in the variations are fascinating.

[@thomashughes4859]

Right with you, Kennith! Having never beend exposed to this piece, I find it perfectly within its tempo.

[@siegfriedstark]

Honestly speaking, this is much better than the Diabelli set!!! And at this tempo, we can appreciate the many treasures and jewels hidden in the many variations. To my humble perception, this is Beethoven's answer to Goldberg Variations. Great job, Wim! Thanks a lot!

[@robertklein8187]

This is indeed a beautiful set of variations, and the theme is certainly more poignant than the Diabelli waltz, however I agree with Hans von Bulow who described the Diabelli variations as a microcosmos of Beethoven’s art. To me there is a greater range of musical expression in the last 3 of the Diabelli variations alone than in this entire set of 32 variations.

[@DC-fy8cg]

I understand why you was so moved whilst playing this. it is mesmerising! Thankyou for your wonderful performance.

[@jerryli821]

As the pianist myself I like your explorations. I don't understand people who will buy recording after recording of famous pieces and they want them all to sound the same. The orthodoxy becomes stultifying. I think it gives people a lift to think they're expert listeners when they can recognize a standard rendition. 'Very silly.

[@andreasvandieaarde]

I agree as a Pianist as well! It is refreshing hearing new interpretations of music! Even if the historical side of it is not factually founded (the contrary of which I am convinced of as of late), these are still new performances and allow you to hear new ways to hear the music. That is in my books an inherently good thing! Think of Glenn Gould, he was hardly conventional in a lot of his cases of interpreting Bach for example and yet he stands on his own as a fantastic musician past. Wim's passion for historical performance is inspiring and that is more than enough to ask, for me.

[@dennisjardine4089]

I had to play this piece for my final exams. I hated it with a passion and swore never ever to touch it again. After hearing this I might just reconsider and try it again! Thanks.

[@Nicolas-zb9uw]

How could you play for an exam a piece you hate . I never did it . I always played in exams or recitals pieces I like .

[@williamhuband7913]

This is new to me - and I confess that it was very enjoyable. Thank you yet again Wim !

[@AuthenticSound]

Thank you Bill, always so great to read you

[@anthonymccarthy4164]

The dissonances are so much more significant in this playing, they propel the harmony forward in ways you miss at faster speeds. I don't think I ever quite sensed the structure of his piece so directly, and it's something I've performed.

[@michaelfuria4257]

amazing rendition.

[@123Joack]

In this Tempo, the True nature of a variations piece is audible - it is an improvisation, at least it has to appear as such. in this tempo the small changes and modifications are absolutely convincing, really mesmerizing in fact. Although so provokingly slow, I feel closer to Beethoven and less attached to the pianists interpretation. Also as mentioned by others, the revolutionary, daring and „ugly“ harmonies that take time to get resolved are exactly the kind of Genius ideas I want to experience, I don’t think Beethoven would have whizzed by them, he was very proud of his work. Thanks Wim!

[@benjamingoldstein1861]

I'm not sure what you mean by "true nature of a variations piece." How would one come to a conclusion about that true nature? And variations are about so much more than tempo. Also, on an older reproduction piano, such as this, the acoustic nature of the instrument actually doesn't seem to allow those very "ugly" harmonies to have enough duration to establish themselves aurally. How do they actually get resolved as such? I'm having a bit of an opposite reaction; the extra space between each sonic event seems to let the piece fall apart. I find it a truly unusual that Mr. Winters plays with such sensitivity, yet the piece doesn't coalesce. -b

[@123Joack]

Benjamin Goldstein Variation Pieces emerged from improvisatory practice, starting with Cantus firmus to ostinato Bass to aria variations. To accurately convey the variations of the material, keeping a consistent tempo is helpful for an audience who has never heard the piece before. The variations aren’t about tempo at all! The tempo is simply an integral component of the music, and has to be treated with care. I disagree on the effect of the pianoforte, the sustain might not be as lush as on a concert grand, but it never fails to establish or resolve dissonances. What falls apart is our faster conception of the piece, in which sections are closer together, and dissonances more blurred. A more skeletal view on the music can be unsettling

[@benjamingoldstein1861]

@@123Joack Mr. Verlenzius- Thank you for your details about variations: that certainly makes sense. I would have to disagree about the resonance of the piano. I would say that we each have a range of how sensitive we are to these external events, and without judgement, I perceive it differently than you. I like your word "skeletal" but again, I would not assign this description to how I hear the performance. Unfortunately, I am currently at a loss as to an appropriate word, but I'll keep at it. -b

[@adibhattacharyya8690]

Wow , this is one of my favorite set of variations in all of piano repertoire. The variation in which beethoven comes into C major is so incredibly unburdening and enlightening. Really looking forward to your appraoch

[@matttondr9282]

Bach: Variations are so boring! Beethoven: Hold my quill.. 😎

[@AlbertoSegovia.]

A revelation: the tone of the piano and the passages around the middle, with the “Beethoven’s crazy” harmonies that reveal him.

[@brandonmacey964]

Just got my henle verlag Beethoven variations band 2 in the mail. Diving in.

[@MichaelTroyPianist]

The Liszt etudes would make a brilliant WB project.

[@math769]

Thank you for your masterful work ! It's a difficult approach in the intellectual side, to take distance, with actual standart. Although i've not make music study, i think it's important to have an original version, in the spirit of the period with contemporary instrument. We have to relearn music

[@thomashughes4859]

I am unfamiliar with this piece, so this will be my first time hearing it like those many people over two centuries ago. Thank you, Wim! I'm looking forward to it.

[@thomashughes4859]

Allegretto in 3/4 time in 1806 and allowing for some SIGNIFICANT l'istesso tempi during the piece mean that Czerny's MM number in WBMP is an excellent tempo. Great work, Wim; the work was exceptional! 😎👍

[@wally3086]

i listened to the hole piece with a score, and i must say that i am shocked, how good and with so much perfection you played this magnificient piece of beethoven which really reminds me of the bach chaccona for violin in d minor.You are really a great master! thank you!

[@YukiEhms]

Good

[@classicalant3959]

2x playback speed sounds like the usual performance tempo

[@AuthenticSound]

except for the variations were mainstream slows down to 50 perc

[@TenorCantusFirmus]

@@AuthenticSound No problem - I'm listening to them at 1.75x and played that way they'd have made a marvelous performance.

[@bachbachbach3]

Hi Wim - one question - why do you play the last 2 quarternotes (2x7tole) in Variation XI with double tempo? kind regards

[@makytondr8607]

I have actually never heard this set of variations before so I am listening to this with a clear mind and I must say I can’t imagine this being played a lot faster than this. The slightly faster Moscheles tempo yes, but any faster than that would just be rushed..

[@Contrapunctus1984]

Excellent job there, Wim. One of my favourite pieces, both the whole beat interpretation and the absolutely authentic fortepiano made a good service to the piece. One of the best possible choices for the new Fritz. Keep up the excellent work.

[@egcbcclark6042]

线条清晰，没听过这么有动力的版本

[@bernardjosephburch470]

i studied this piece at university. This tempo comes off as too slow for me. It doesn't sound very "Beethoven" to me as compared to his symphonies or piano sonatas. HOWEVER, the tempo i played it (as instructed by my professor) was probably too fast. So maybe in the end, i'd prefer the Moscheles tempo which would be faster than yours yet slower than mine. Regardless, excellent interpretation! Thank you.

[@brendanward2991]

"In singular contrast to these grand works and contemporary with their completion, as if written for amusement and recreation after the fatigue of severer studies, are the thirty-two Variations for Pianoforte in C minor. They belong to this Autumn, and are among the compositions which their author would gladly have seen pass into oblivion. Jahn's notes contain an anecdote in point. 'Beethoven once found Streicher's daughter practising these Variations. After he had listened for a while he asked her: "By whom is that?" "By you." "Such nonsense by me. O Beethoven, what an ass you were!"' - Alexander Thayer, "The Life of Ludwig van Beethoven", Volume 2, p 76. Perhaps she was playing the piece in half-beat tempo?

[@MarcusAgricola]

Just wonderful! Such great music and such a wonderful musical interpretation. I didn't listen to the piece for several years now, so my ears were "fresh" enough! My musicians once told me about an "easy" piece, that it was the hardest concert I ever did with them because they had to make something out of it. Somehow I have the feeling, the whole beat theory is the same - the musician has actually to be making real music!

[@hoot2416]

It's simple: I see a video from you, I click. 🙂🙂🙂

[@nicthe85]

Salutations Mr. Winters, As usual very enjoyable listening! Whole beat is becoming more and more pleasing to me as I re-adapt my ear. I actually seek out whole beat performances for some pieces I think could really use the whole beat treatment. But you're all I find! Not that this is in any way a negative, just that you are human and can only work so fast, and thus there is much that is yet unavailable. Lately I've been in a whirl of Jan Dussek and after hearing the available performances online I really think he could use a whole beat recording(s)? I am sure you are quite backlogged already but if Dussek is at all possible for you to upload on this channel either soon or down the road it won't go unappreciated by me. Thank you for reading, please give your family well wishes from me this new year.

[@Rollinglenn]

Sorry I missed the live event. This is very "ear-opening". I imagine that there will always be folks who cannot comprehend the difference in the general pace of life before the advent of steam engines, cars, and factory machines programmed to produce things on their own. Even the lowly sewing machine exponentially sped up clothing manufacture. We are so accustomed to our "instant-on" TV's and computers and microwave food. We do not appreciate waiting for anything to happen - let alone a rapid succession of notes. One of my professors said that music without its silences would be nothing more than noise. I tend to agree. Having grown up with rock and roll, hard rock, et al I see how in my own lifetime we have lost that comprehension of sound in time and space. Music needs time to fill an acoustic space - to "blossom". Hopefully we can reintroduce the value of a slower pace through the detail hidden in music until it is played in WBMP!

[@ghosha7171]

Really cosmic ! I've missed this recording , found it only now .

[@AuthenticSound]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@gmallada]

Really i respect much your work... Always check all your videos and enjoys a lot. My first impression is dislike.... But... The real musicians have patience... And after ear all the video... My veredict is a solid 7/10 points! Congratulations! thanks for uplaod these variations! Regards from Argentina!

[@benhavey4107]

This tempo loses the brilliance and bravura that Czerny described in this piece! Setting aside whether the WBM Theory is correct, I'm not convinced by this tempo. The short sustain of this instrument undermines the phrase markings and the longer note values that Beethoven writes. Beethoven didn't seem to like this piece very much, maybe the original tempo is part of his dislike for it? Always enjoy this channel and the performances :).

[@kennithnichol]

Does it? I'm not convinced it lacks brilliance at all. I believe the tempo is given by Czerny, not Beethoven.

[@fdggothic5015]

Kennith Nichol This tempo is given by the guy playing it; he just claims that this is what Czerny indicates without sufficient evidence, perhaps just to make a name for himself.

[@codonauta]

Why Beethoven didn´t named this work as an Opus? It is just one of the WoO. Did he think was not a composition at the level of a work that could deserve an Opus number? Or, was it a "minor", not good enough composition for an Opus to him? it is unlikely that Beethoven "forgot" to publish this work in life, since as far as I know a composition has the number of Opus when the composer himself publishes it.

[@klop4228]

It had to be published (i.e. by a publisher) to get an Opus no. I assume that never happened during his life.

[@charleyfeng2054]

Hello Wim. I love what you are doing, and after finding your channel last week, I have played many Beethoven sonatas and chopin etudes on double beat and they make so much more sense now! Even the slow movements sound better. Two movements that stood out to me were 2nd movement of 31/1 and 2nd movement of 31/3. For the 1/64 notes there you can actually hear the individual notes and not a glissando type sound. p.s. I've been learning Hammerklavier sonata and the fugue is ridiculously difficult even at double beat lol.

[@dickersonforever]

It's fuguing difficult. LoL

[@kefka34]

Great playing of an influencial masterpiece! I think this work of Beethoven suffered a little bit from the edition of Eugen d´Albert.He was obiously a great admirer of this piece and played it often,he then left an instructive editon with very colorful and passionate descriptions of his musical ideas. I do think the pianistic world fell in love with this edition and forget a little bit the actual content of the score.

[@gamingmusicandjokesandabit1240]

(all of this was discovered through playing this speed doubly fast - yes I'm one of those people who prefer the faster version[s] but don't want to insult anyone so no offence - ). Plot twist: A couple of times, your hands are moving to and from each other, like clapping. 24:42 Reminds me of someone who checked to see who their patreons are, and got scared of the long list, for that reason. Overall, some of the video seemed funny, especially some of the low registers, so WoO(80)hoo.

[@AA-le9ls]

For many pieces, the double beat tempo seems too slow while the single beat tempo seems too fast, so I think that we should investigate whether there existed such a thing as a 1.5-beat metronome practice during the 19th century. The meaning of "quarter note=120" could be that the duration of two quarter notes corresponds to three ticks of a metronome when that device is set to the speed 120. Or in other words: the duration of a single quarter note corresponds to 1.5 metronome ticks.

[@surgeeo1406]

Whenever you start with a theory that you wish would be true, and then search for evidence, you will always find it. False evidence, that you see as being true. There is no reason for 1.5 metronome, other than it'd feel right to you. Don't start from your feelings.

[@vrixphillips]

surprising that it should end so quietly after such a dramatic coda! but it follows a narrative, complete with denouement... at some points, it sounds like Philip Glass (which is no insult, I love Glass as much as I love Bach, and who doesn't idolize Bach?) but I feel like it's too slow. Isn't there a 2:3 polyrhythm in there? I feel like if the music reveals its own secrets rather than bewildering the ear, it may be too slow. That's what produces the excitement of polyrhythms, I think. But I'm no professional theorist or musician.

[@republiccooper]

Thanks for joining us on this Czerny! 🤐🤐 hehehe

[@AA-le9ls]

I don't like the single-beat theory since it follows from it that my favorite composer Chopin was a speed lunatic.

[@ofthetree]

This is not Beethovens music. His notes yes, but not his music.

[@AuthenticSound]

the notes is already a good start in today's performance practice habits, I can live with that !

[@derekgeorgeandrews]

This def doesn't sound like intended...it just feels slow. I have an interesting idea for you...what if you took a tempo halfway between? Just to see how it sounds, no other reason. Just a fun experiment for a future video...not necessarily this piece, just any piece. Contrast it directly with the wb version and the faster version and discuss purely how it feels to listen to it.

[@AuthenticSound]

that would be rather pointless seen the idea of wanting to reconstruct the metronome marks. They point either to a modern reading or the WBMP. That seems to be the hardest part for many to accept: there is no grey zone there. But one thing though people should also realize: I would never release a recording of which I would be not a 100% (well kind of) satisfied. So when you hear a recording, you can be assured I stand by it a 100%. It is not just 'an experiment', it works for me. Hope that helps.

[@derekgeorgeandrews]

Another reason I am suspicious of this theory is that older instruments such as the fortepiano and clavichord (I actually have not played a fortepiano so correct me if I'm wrong in assuming the action would be very light compared to a modern piano) have an exceedingly light action. Improvising fluently and quickly in classical or baroque styles is aided greatly by the lighter actions, in contrast to how it feels to play in these styles on a modern grand. I suppose I am tempted to believe there's a natural range of tempos that feel natural to humans, perhaps driven by the speed of the heart perhaps. That's all speculation and so on; and perhaps difficult to do research on. Perhaps a subjective tempo study could some day be done. Ask people to listen to pieces from around the world played more slowly or more quickly than the reputation or common practice of the piece, and see how regular people react to each example. Discovering what the human ear naturally perceivs as fast or slow would be quite intriguing.

[@AA-le9ls]

If the double beat theory were proven wrong, we would be driven out of the Beethoven paradise (consisting of slow performances of Beethoven's pieces) that Mr. Winters has created for us.

[@AuthenticSound]

don't worry :-). In fact one could see this from the other side: what's a theory worth when it is not fully applicable? In that sense, the half/single beat theory indeed just is a theory...

[@Nicolas-zb9uw]

Authentic Sound : 22 min 58 . Claudio Arau : 12 . See the difference ? And I'm still a fan of Claudio who , to my knowledge never played fast to impress but always played to move audiences while being respectful of scores . Speed , to me , is subjectiv. In 2020, we can not play as slow as in 1805 . We drive cars on highway not anymore stagecoaches , fast trains , drink coffee every day and more than once a day , and since tv , internet , microwave ovens and all electrical appliances , we all want to be done fast before ......we all die . So music , to my opinion can not be played as slow as it was 200 years ago. Our expectation is elsewhere ,our rythm is elsewhere .

[@AuthenticSound]

In a way I agree: speed is subjective. that means that if somebody likes to play as "slow" as in 1805, potentially he or she can still do it. Then what's the reason why we cannot play as 200 years ago? is there a limitation in the freedom of interpretation?

[@nikanm2387]

Do you even understand Beethoven?

[@phpn99]

Absolutely awful. This makes no sense.

[@AuthenticSound]

Of course not

[@nikanm2387]

That’s not how we play this marvel

[@AuthenticSound]

Always happy to see that there are many different interpretations

[@baliryna]

А если бы хорошо учился, то смог бы быстрее и играть и ровнее. 😁