Axe Sharpening and Edge Geometry: An Introduction

Some thoughts on axe edge geometry and sharpening and the physics of chopping

[@KevinsDisobedience]

A very thorough introduction, Ben. Glad you put this together for us. I have experimented with larger or wider secondary bevels on thin axes and have found in my wood they cut well and hold up over time better. When I get down under 18 the steel starts to take on damage on most axes, but with a stouter secondary bevel they hold up. And since the main bevel is the most important I’m not sure the size of the secondary bevel matters that much under 18 degrees. But obviously we’d all prefer to use a razor blade if we could. If only trees grew without limbs lol.

[@MatthewAmsbaugh]

This has to be one of the best explanations I’ve seen. Well made video sir. I’ll be watching this a few times.

[@TheWtfnonamez]

I just found your channel. I consider myself a bit of an expert, who has done some bushcraft, owns a selection of axes, and knows his stuff. A few videos in and I'm starting to worry that I am like one of those tourists who buys an expensive camera and thinks he must automatically be a photographer. You are incredibly skilled, VERY good at explaining your craft, and I consider myself humbled. Thank you mate.

[@benscottwoodchopper]

I think its a natural progression, i thought i was pretty knowledgeable then i started competing with stihl timbersports, the rabbit hole goes deep

[@TheWtfnonamez]

@@benscottwoodchopper Thank you mate. Working through all your videos now ... file in hand lol

[@TheudBaldM]

Clearly one of the best videos on the subject, the diagrams are great!! Makes me want to file some axes once again just to be sure of my angles 😁

[@scottishcottagerenovation]

Great video, you can tell how much work went into this. It was definitely worth it!

[@Andreas-tw4cm]

Thank you, best axe channel i have found so far.

[@jeffreyrubish347]

This is a great treatise on axe geometry.

[@thefellingfella9886]

Really good video on axe geometry! Especially liked the virtual part!

[@Fogyt121]

For the local woods and the use I put my axes through, an angle between 20 and 25 degrees with no secondary bevel or microbevel seems to work best. I made a few wedgy hatchets and put 23 degree "flat" grinds on them, along with convex cheeks and they never get stuck in anything. They throw a good chip, too.

[@trevormartin987]

This is the only quality video on the internet clearly explaining the subject. Thank you so much 🙏🏽

[@Codi_Clapper]

Really nice video Ben! I enjoy the videos you’ve been putting out. Not many take the time to explain and put a science to these things. Thanks for the diagrams. Really cool stuff👍

[@brettbrown9814]

Excellent video with fantastic graphics. Thanks for putting it together.

[@jeffbopp1710]

Hi Ben, I've never before commented on any youtube stuff, but I really wanted to say thanks for all the material you've created. I had been scouring the internet trying to learn about ax maintenance and found most of the content really lacking in detail or explanation. I'm actually one of those who purchased a couple of gransfors axes without knowing much, (a small forest and a regular forest ax; I will say they Are beautiful little axes) and after using them, even after some sharpening (albeit only sharpening the bit not grinding the actual cheeks) I found they just lack much punch for the kind of stuff I enjoy. Ended up trying out a muller canada 1000gr with the 700mm handle per your recommendation, and with the help of several of your videos on sharpening and grinding for efficient cutting, I've ground the cheeks down substantially. Can't really tell the exact angle, even with an angle disc thing, but I'd estimate it's down to 15 or 16 degrees. I used the method of grinding down using the eye as a marker, and was maybe a little over-zealous, because when I finished, many hours later, I worried it was too thin. I went ahead and put a more obtuse, 30 degree primary bevel on the very edge and took it out to do some cutting today, in the back of my head thinking I might chip or roll it..... Holy COW!!!! What a difference!!!!!!!! It's SO satisfying getting those deep cuts and pulling out thick chips. I think I might avoid knots with this one, but I found your advice to be spot on. So, thank you. Really appreciate your stuff. And it's cool to see how many other people nerd out on axes too haha. There's something so satisfying, in a kind of primal way about using an ax. They''re such a joy to use!

[@kurts64]

Awesome effort on this vid mate, really well explained, diagrams spot on too. Well done!👍👍

[@A_Meek_lake_Dweller]

This is the finest presentation on this subject I have seen. Great video thank you Ben!

[@bastionhead]

Fantastic education right here. Thanks, Ben!

[@TheJesusr1]

This is a very thorough, interesting, simply explained and informative video. I have just ordered a couple of metal files!

[@kevintheshoerfast]

Thank you! One of the best informational / instructional videos I've seen. As a Blacksmith / bladesmith I'll put this information to work.

[@chimmy4244]

Great information here! I think that about sums it up. Thanks!

[@flugit]

Great info Ben. 👍

[@jeanmartox3570]

Vos analyses sont trés pertinentes! Merci pour cela!

[@lukasking2573]

Great informations thanks, again.

[@OnceUponAnotherTime]

excellently presented.

[@kevcollupy]

Great stuff, thanks

[@pascalstolz2901]

I like a very high, full convex on all my edges. Knives too! the basque axe works so well, because of convex grinds.

[@coltscustoms]

Awesome video! Gonna try this on my machetes too. Thanks!

[@benhewson81]

Great Vid, been struggling with the correct geometry choice for two different shaped hatchets, a small forest axe and a felling axe i have, few key points in this video that i hadn't considered, especially re the friction difference between the different grinds and axe shapes....also the bounce was giving me some issues. I'll be getting the file and stones out this weekend and correcting some mistkes i've clearly made. Cheers mate.

[@brianmaldonado3723]

I think that was excellent. Ty.

[@amc31b]

Well done explanation. I like convex edges but they have to be done with thinner cheeked axes and the bevel on the convex needs to be steep. A short, fat, obtuse, convex edge geometry is quite bouncy and only good for splitting.

[@harwoodblades3633]

Very informative 👍if you want to check the angle buy a digital angle finder from tool station for £15 🤔I mainly use it for grinding knife bevels but handy for checking axe geometry..all the best Lincoln 👍🤙

[@coffeeandlifting]

Good, concise explanation of good geometry. Lots of axe restorers who otherwise do very good work are still grinding their axes with cringe-worthy, obtuse bevels just to apex and call it finished. Nicely restored axes with terrible geometry are so prevalent that I had to unfollow most of the axe pages I used to follow on IG.

[@polderfischer8565]

Thanks Ben for that perfect explanation! I prefer a little konvex, because there is nothing more exausting than a sticky axe.

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Convex is more sticky imo. Flat set up properly is far more easy to remove. Otherwise racing axes would all be convex

[@awyrcoch]

​@@benscottwoodchopper hang on there are 2 very different convexities, one is a convex bevel (in my experience that might make the axe a tad less sticky but mostly because it prevents too much penetration) and the other is a convex cheek (intended as a convexity parallel to the edge) which is what really makes the axe release the easiest, together with a slight curve on the edge profile. bottom line is, the ideal set up for chopping large logs is flat bevel (optimum penetration) + convex cheeks (easy release). convex bevel has its place, mostly in splitting axes and in very thin cheeks where the convexity helps protect the edge, and like Ben said thin cheeks (like italian axes which I use a lot of) are very good for limbing and small diameter chopping because they penetrate deep. finally, no room for any convexity on carpentry, carving, woodworking bevels, they must be dead flat there.

[@benscottwoodchopper]

@@awyrcoch yeah really need to come up with 2 seperate terms to avoid confusion

[@BlueGorillaInTheMist]

Suuuuper good video. Thank you. When you mention edge angles in your videos, are you referring to the angle for each side (of the edge), or an inclusive angle? In other words, if you refer to a 20° angle, does that mean 20° per side for an inclusive angle of 40°, or 10° per side for 20° inclusive?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

I for 20° total

[@CFAS102]

Hi Ben, thanks for this explanation; real rookie question here but how much of a difference does the angle that you hit the wood make (for chipping the wood out)?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

You want to be hitting the log at 45°, the notch should at least be the same width as the diameter of the log

[@corymiller9854]

Great vid. I have started to file my cheaper axes and had good success. Looking to fix up my gransfors felling axe. It does not chop in enough seems you mentioned this axe in this vid. Should I take the cheeks off a few inches back? This has worked so far on my other axes and it seems you call that a flat grind?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

flat grind is a flat bevel from cheek to edge, sometimes with a secondary bevel

[@jeanmartox3570]

Salutation to French Forester! La hache que vous utilisez à 6:30 est la forme typique Catalane! c'est surprenant de la voir entre vos mains!

[@benscottwoodchopper]

I bought that one in northern italy from a junk shop, it seems to be a popular style there too

[@jeanmartox3570]

@@benscottwoodchopper ahhh les haches Latines!! Encore merci pour votre engagement à instruire! Bravo!

[@bengg6772]

Thank you for your clear and practical informations ! Well I see clearly the wedge profil on an hultafors HY. A thin one, but a wedge that enlarge relatively quickly (not as quick as a dedicated splitting axe of course) For understanding purpose : on a Gränsfors Scandinavian forest axe, for the same weight at the hultafors HY, the head is longer and seems thiner a long way before starting to enlage. Well Can I assume better for chopping light and/or small diameter but less "general purpoose" ? And sorry, one last question (lol) : any thought about carpenter axe ? hultafors SY SV or Stålberg for 1.5 hand light axe ? And if they had a longuer handle ? Thank you :)

[@benscottwoodchopper]

The carpenters axes are okay but i prefer italian axes for light axe choices. Yes thinner profile axes are better for limbing and small wood but dont chip the wood well

[@bengg6772]

​ @benscottwoodchopper Thank you a lots for your answer and availability. Thx to you I'm starting to have a good vision, a paper one of course actually, of the market and possibility. Well I will probably give a try to 2 or 3 axes (probably two, because the cheaper one additionnée ... ) : Hultafors HY 10 0,9 (price point), Rinaldi 300 700Gr or 900gr (price point and tomahawk style handle) and a if possible light splitting axe (dont know ... grans fors small splitting axe is so expensive ) Thank you again

[@benscottwoodchopper]

@@bengg6772 i would get the hy10 1.2kg rather than 0.9 and the rinaldi 700. Better variety of use and weights that way. Small splitting axes are somewhat pointless, they dont work much better than felling axes in small wood for splitting

[@bengg6772]

@@benscottwoodchopper Thank you. Hum indeed, good advice, two axes, two usage. Hum indeed the small splinting axe from Gränsfors have a head of only 1kg ... with wide pattern for sure. But not heavy enough to be interesting/usefull/useable probably.

[@townieoutdoors8121]

Any advice on thinning a handle even . I feel like I won't be accurate thinning each side evenly. Lo e your channel by the way !

[@benscottwoodchopper]

its not hard just patience, if it feels good then its fine

[@emmanuel.belanger]

Thank you Ben for this introduction. Just wondering, do you make the micro bevel with your belt sanders too?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

No fine file or stone for mucro

[@emmanuel.belanger]

@@benscottwoodchopper roger that!

[@roxandarveau6188]

I am curiouse about how different aze geometry wear over time. I feel a fine or hollow ground axe would keep their effectiveness over much more sharpening or quantity on metal remove over time by sharpening it. A wedge axe would either need longer and longer primary bevel to stay at the same angle or if you keepe the same bevel lenght it would need to have a broader angle. I feel like a wedge axe would not stay effective over its live time

[@benscottwoodchopper]

wedge shaped axes get stubby and ineffective much faster with wear

[@roxandarveau6188]

@@benscottwoodchopper so it's not juste an impression thank you for your answer

[@Buggapanda]

Hey Ben, thanks for the explanation! I do have a question about splitting axes, splitting mauls in particular, and that is how thin would you get the bevel and how important it is for them to be "sharp"? Does having a thinner edge help them bite deeper in the wood to start the split or is it way less relevant given the mass and momentum of the rest of the tool?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

With mauls sharp definitely helps, but the bevel doesnt need to be very thin

[@davidwyby]

Experiment and match to the wood you are splitting to find the balance between bounce and stuck.

[@zepratas363]

Hi Ben. I have an Hultafors hy 10-1.5 and following your advice, I tried to thin the cheeks with a coarse file but it got me nowhere. I recently bought a bench grinder and I was wondering if I could use it to thin the axe head but I’m afraid I’ll ruin my axe. I am concerned the grinder shape will make the axe cheeks to concave and also if the high temperature from the friction will ruin the steel. Do you have any advice on this? Thanks and congratulations on your content!

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Regularly cool the axe in water, you can rough out the shape of the grind with an angle grinder then smooth it with a file. Bench grinders are possible but less effective and hardrr to get good results with but doable

[@daweed4255]

Have you tried the ochsenkopf universal forestaxe? It is actually the first axe I bought and stock it is absolutly stupid with the red steel caller. I sharpened it a bit and use it as a root-buster atm… :D I an wondering if it would be a nice axe if you rehang it on a thinner, usable handle and give it a good flat grind. It might just be a fatter Iltis.

[@benscottwoodchopper]

yeah flat grind they work just fine

[@firehanshg]

Hi ben, may i ask where did you get the axe you were using for chopping the Birch tree, the very shiney axe head? can you please provide a link if possible. keep up the good wrok.cheers Hans.

[@benscottwoodchopper]

tuatahi axes

[@jeffreydustin5303]

terrific summary, I learned a lot. how much do you want for that Genova axe?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Its one of those axes i cannot put a price to, however rinaldi made a limited batch of essentially the same bergamo pattern exclusive to les frontiers outils worth checking out

[@jeffreydustin5303]

@@benscottwoodchopper Thanks. I'll check it out. Basically you were talking about throwing chips and I wonder. If you had an axe that somehow was a razor blade and "magically" strong enough to withstand the forces, would that magic axe paperthin slide into the wood and get stuck and not throw chips? In other words, if the axe can slice into the wood, and you cut both sides of the notch, won't the chips fall out even without geometry because of the depth of cut and gravity?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

no otherwise wood round would fall to peiecs naturally and splitting axes would be useless

[@SuperM1man]

Dang I wish you had a vaughan sub zero to revew they have a huge banana grind a hollow grind I believe it was the old American standard for cutting redwood trees .vaughan and or plumb axes

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Ive seen them in another persons videos, looks more like a chisel grind with a big hollow behind the edge to me. For redwoods the puget sound pattern was used made by plumb, sager, true temper and a few others

[@catmakinbizkitz]

I have been enjoying your content. I have recently been working on restoring an older american jersey style axe from sager warren, which needs a banana style grind, its my understanding that generally they were not ground out of the factory and that was generally something that was done later by the purchaser, and this was never done to this axe, it's very thick in middle and i've been filing and filing, spent a couple of days on it, and I was wandering if you knew of a faster way to remove a lot of material but still keep the accuracy, or perhaps there's a more aggressive file that I could look into purchasing? at this point i might also be considering just spending a little time working on the bevel every time i use it but I feel like it might be years before I actually get the bevel where I want it...

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Yeah filing takes quite a long time, i use a belt sander these days just need to watch the heat

[@catmakinbizkitz]

@@benscottwoodchopper thanks, and chance you have any content detailing your process with that or recommendations? i've been wanting a belt grinder for a while but haven't really had a great need that justifies getting one, but I just might... i tried using one of the larger knife making ones at a friends house, but I feel like it might be kind of hard to be accurate with an axe vs grinding knives. it was fun though

[@benscottwoodchopper]

@@catmakinbizkitz i filmed the process with racing axes for normal axes i dont worry about finding a centrepoint, just hold it at a good angle kzbin.info/www/bejne/fYrHeIaEYtGDpNU

[@catmakinbizkitz]

@@benscottwoodchopper nice, thanks! That little Makita grinder is sweet!

[@williaminkley1587]

If I wanted a "sticky" say for axe throwing, would a concave edge give an advantage. Although this would nake the seconadry bevel fragile?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Yes, also leave in rough grinding marks

[@iCanHazTwentyLetters]

I need an axe for felling and limbing. Looking at Muller Biber Forrest vs. Ochsenkopf Which one is better in your opinion?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

muller biber canada 1000 kzbin.info/www/bejne/pH6pc56YYpWKrrc

[@jordanbailes7349]

Do you have a suggestion as to the particular brand of angle gauge/a suggestion as to where to buy one?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Veritas are good but theres loads out there and it really doesnt matter, you could even make your own

[@jordanbailes7349]

@@benscottwoodchopper thanks!

[@kjohnson3505]

I've been seeing alot of cheap brands with concave (hollow) grinds coming through now.

[@scottharrison5971]

What kind of shoes are you wearing? Are they axe splitting specific?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

I just use normal shoes with chain mail under or steel toe cap

[@roubenssonrw5862]

So It’s 10 degrees on both sides and it adds up as 20 degrees? Im asking because i read contradictory things online

[@benscottwoodchopper]

yes 20 degrees total

[@purplegas2779]

I have a English rounding axe and Im not sure what kinda edge it should have for rounding I was wondering if you or anyone knows thanks

[@benscottwoodchopper]

just a standard felling edge of20 degrees

[@purplegas2779]

@@benscottwoodchopper thanks 👍

[@Michalis_Karakostas]

What grit file do you use to put the micro bevel?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

400

[@Michalis_Karakostas]

@@benscottwoodchopper 400 Is the final grit in your progress or can I use after that, an 800 for example and then strop? Or just 400 is just enough before stropping?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

@@Michalis_Karakostas 400 is fine, 1000 is more thani normally bother but do whatever you want and experiment, theres no do downside to it

[@flugit]

Do you have a review of that China head?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Yes, its extremely good for the money

[@flugit]

@@benscottwoodchopper I ordered one a few days ago, think it'd survive use as a general work axe with a 20ish degree grind?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

@@flugit yeah i havr one which has

[@flugit]

@@benscottwoodchopper thanks Ben

[@tlumaczy1507]

Hello, there! Is it normal for 8 pounds splitting moul to be asymetric?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Not normal but there is a few i know of that are asymetric by design

[@tlumaczy1507]

@@benscottwoodchopper Stihl?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

@@tlumaczy1507 asymetric in what way?

[@tlumaczy1507]

@@benscottwoodchopper When You look at ax head from the top making center line, ax blade is not in the center. When You hit log You always feel like it goes aside. My theory is that forces are directed one way to avoid blocking maul and splitt more efficiently. I don't know if i am wrong...

[@tlumaczy1507]

@@benscottwoodchopper I talk about regulars 6-8 pound maul...

[@mattg6136]

Chrs.Ben. Your a Ledge.

[@elemental4rce]

I JUST NOTICED SOMETHING DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT ABOUT YOUR CHOPPING IN THE INTRO! (anyone guess what it is?)

[@MattKeevil]

🤔

[@benscottwoodchopper]

I think i have a idea but what is it?

[@elemental4rce]

@@benscottwoodchopper breathing!

[@beepboop204]

🙃

[@albertlorenzen3048]

🎉😂😢😮😅😅😊❤