Conventional Keyboards Are STAGGERINGLY STUPID!

[@BenVallack]

Subscribe to my new custom keyboards channel! www.youtube.com/@BenVallacksKeyboards

[@supasolja95]

Since getting an ortho then columnar staggered, I often find myself thinking whether we really should start from scratch on some of our man machine interfaces that originated from more analogue base designs.

[@VuLamDang]

There are a lot of argument to be made, to support inventing new human machine interface. For example, typing work better for western language, where you have a smaller set of characters to choose from.

[@Dooge]

​@@VuLamDangif I could post images in KZbin comments I'd be posting the image of the man with the drumset of all the Chinese characters. Maybe we should just use stenography keyboards

[@BenRangel]

First thought (never having considered ortholinear before): "This is dumb as hell. My muscle memory probably needs the different sizes of keys to remember their position" Last thought: "oh, it's like a numpad. that's true. makes more sense than the random layout"

[@BenVallack]

Your fingers are using the same principle to find the keys - that’s why the grid is so logical so use.

[@tycorrell5390]

@caplanchy Just think of a staggered QWERTY keyboard in your head. Without having looked at one for a minute, try to type the word 'red,' 'refers,' or 'polk.' Unless you use swipe gestures frequently on your phone or such, it's likely the exact location of letters is obscured relatively to others. After a bit of use on an orthographic keyboard you'll be able to type more fluently in your head and in practice, literally. The origin of QWERTY is from the first typewriters battling over patentable layouts rather than the most efficient distances for common words. This actually has an influence on words we psychologically prefer. Easier-to-type words and product names are actually preferred / sell better. If we had an ABCDEF layout over QWERTY without any bias, it may be more efficient, as the design of this standard layout is actually only based on making it easy to type "typewriter," which was done for promotion - the meaning of this, is that the staggered layout is also random and not based on utilizing common, efficient words. In fact, it was designed to be difficult intentionally to keep people trained to use this layout in the company instead of with their competitors and drive competing layouts sales down. Ideally AI could take the most common words of a language and create a layout that is most efficient for typing. Except the most common words are biased by the current standard, so really we're far too along to change it universally.

[@GameFuMaster]

@@tycorrell5390 i thought qwerty was to reduce jamming

[@tycorrell5390]

@@GameFuMaster You're right, it's probably that as well, along with being able to spell Typewriter on a single row and for patenting reasons. I hadn't heard that one. Having the most commonly used keys far apart would result in less jamming, thus faster typing. Idk if it's faster on a modern keyboard to alternate hands frequently.

[@GameFuMaster]

@@tycorrell5390 Eh, I'm going with split keyboard now anyway. So I can keep my arms at shoulder width.

[@dinggleberry9529]

Amazing how you are able to look at this logically and objectively. After watching this it seems so obvious ortho is going to be better for me.

[@DciMaluko]

Incredible production quality dude, subscribed!

[@BenVallack]

thanks so much - means a lot!

[@jimdaniels4595]

This comment is so on point I am appreciating it instead of the video because in that regard it is exactly how I feel.

[@kramand4651]

Great points. I was on the fence about ortho. Subscribed! and will be picking one up. Best of luck my friend.

[@rogerm4a1]

Same here just discovered him today.

[@chriscioffi6670]

In a single keyboard as shown, I'm not fully sold on ortholinear. BUT, since i'm looking at possibly (probably) getting a split keyboard and many of them are ortholinear, this makes a ton of sense when you can arrange the halves in an even more ergonomic fashion. Well done video, Ben!

[@halcyonacoustic7366]

Yeah, it seems to me that split is much more helpful than ortholinear.

[@RickGladwin]

Did you end up getting a split keyboard? What did you go with? I’m at that same place - very likely getting a split keyboard this year, but deciding whether to take it a step at a time or go full ortholinear out of the gates.

[@MattyPS]

@@RickGladwinI'm in the exact same boat as you!

[@chriscioffi6670]

@@RickGladwin Well, I've had a bit of a journey. I went with a Kyria rev2 and simply could never get used to it. The pinky stagger seemed like it would be right for my hands, but even after 2 weeks I never hit a pinky key right on the first try. I think going to a Kyria from a conventional kb was just too much too fast. Right now I've gotten a 70% conventional kb that I'm messing around with QMK to try stuff like home row mods. I've got a Dygma Raise 2 on pre-order and I'm hoping that will work better for me.

[@First.Last.99]

This is an example of a individual who is THINKING with his own brain and who is asking questions. Big props to you! Love the video and your thoughts. Converting to linear very soon.

[@NazoKiyoubinbou]

The conventional explanation (no one really seems to know for sure) for the design choices that have survived all the way to modern computer keyboards is that the choices were basically made back in the earliest typewriter days. Back then it was very easy for them to jam and if people got too fast at it it was virtually guaranteed they'd have to stop and clear jams frequently. The staggered keys likely are more due to simply how the actual levers were positioned to the keys and combined with the QWERTY key layout choice overall it would slow down typists to at least decrease the frequency of problems like jams. It's very hard to exactly regulate your exact typing speed to a specific rate (and it certainly would have to be limited low on really old typewriters) so the idea is it was necessary to forcibly slow people down since typists started getting used to typing and started typing faster over time. Whether this is true or not, the fact remains: there is no positive benefit to those choices on a modern digital computer keyboard. Any key layout (even random) would be more efficient and a linear rather than staggered layout is going to be easier on the hands and ultimately produce less RSI. It's worth noting that later mechanical typewriters ultimately improved designs and it was no longer necessary to slow people down anyway. Digital typewriters and computers were never subject to jamming (at least not due to physical limitations though I can certainly remember the olden days of filling my computer's keyboard buffer when it was basically frozen up to process something, but the problem there wasn't my typing speed but simply whatever was freezing the computer) so these design choices simply don't make sense even under the idea of slowing people down and they both contribute towards RSI, so really need to go. However, it seems convincing people as a whole to change anything is an uphill battle at the very least and thus even in custom keyboards it's surprisingly hard to get a lot of ortholinear options compared to orders of magnitude more options in staggered layouts.

[@BenVallack]

Nice summary thanks!

[@FreshAirRules]

That was superb. Just superb. That is what is called an encapsulation!

[@deasesebago]

That’s what u call 🤓

[@BadenHealth]

Staggered makes sense to me in a non-split board as the staggers match the angles of your hands

[@bookle5829]

@@deasesebago SHUT UP lol

[@DJSerjaySvek]

Sir, thanks a ton for your videos. This one in particular sealed the deal and helped me jump on the 40% ortholinear train. Still trying to get used to the layers and figuring out what is the best key for which location, but the process is great fun!

[@Tamperkele]

"There's no use for that it's mad." Well put.

[@elfoenaci2]

"There's NO use for that. It is Mad." Lol. So true

[@braddaily8688]

I felt like I was having a conversation with a real person, great video!

[@FreshAirRules]

That cultured accent doesn't hurt. For the life of me I cannot comprehend why the Scandinavian countries would choose an American accent over a British one when adapting English as a second language. Pure insanity. I'm not even British and have to admit to the clear superiority in their pronunciation. I mean a refined accent like this guy has, not some brash, horrible concoction you hear so often outside of London. Here in Canada we have Quebec that brutalizes the beautiful language of France! Its so strange how people don't seem to discern language pronunciation. In New York City which is plagued also by a horrible accent high achievers seek to rid themselves of that accent by the time they have graduated university. They are making a good choice. One of the worst in the US? Boston! Ugh. Sounds like they barely graduated kindergarten. Maybe I'm too sensitive. No offence to people from New York and Boston!

[@theapexpredator157]

Thank you for making this video. I've just recently noticed that a staggered key layout is really weird and seems non-sensical. I'm going to be getting an ortholinear keyboard that will also be Split and then program it with the Colemak Layout.

[@HongKongGhost]

I stopped using staggered keyboards when I first switched to the Colemak layout a few years ago. It is still surprising to me that most keyboards use a staggered layout when it is clearly such a suboptimal design.

[@xqt5806]

Qwerty layout is the most popular form in the world. It is not that easy to told entire society to change just because it is less optimal than Colemak.

[@HongKongGhost]

@@xqt5806 yes, that is true. It is just my personal choice. I will pick a choice that is better for the health of my hands where typing feels more comfortable over the convenience of going with the majority choice. Everyone decides for themselves, , I like to mention Colemeak so that more people find out about it and can make their own choice. I hope that one day there is enough adoption that it will be common knowledge and a popular choice.

[@Conno422]

TLDR: Once you fix your bad typing habits that you're forced to fix on ortho, switching between the two layouts is really easy. Just to note, I've been using an ortho for the last year or so. I got to 100wpm+ on the ortho. The time to adapt to the layout was very short, only around 2 weeks. Even though I increased my speed to 100wpm on my ortholinear keyboard without hardly ever using a standard staggered layout, I was able to get 100 wpm on the staggered layout. The only real difference between ortholinear and staggered is that you're forced to type with proper form to touch type on an ortho if you had any bad habits before. The only habit I had that I had to fix was that I typed the "c" key with my left index finger instead of the middle finger.

[@fishzard]

yeah I noticed that for myself too. Other bad habits would include using my right index finger to reach for B

[@Conno422]

I already used my left for the b so I didn't have this problem. Probably the only bad habit I still have while typing is only using left shift instead of both.

[@FuruHataNinzaburo-w8z]

Almost exactly the same experience especially with the c and index finger. However I am a much slower typer but swapp out the wpm number I had the same experience

[@techtiger2558]

same here

[@SonDeLima]

Ok but why would you want to use ortho getting 100 wpm+ is easy with any keyboard if you practice (you have to be very low to practice typing OMEGALUL) You dont need anything above 90 wpm it helps so little

[@raytsh]

6:01, speaking of row-stagger on virtual keyboards, I just realized that the bottom row on my iPhone is indeed ortho linear to the middle row. Just the top and middle rows are staggered to each other.

[@alish2001]

I was literally doing a typing test and didn't realize how hard it was to contort my fingers. Been hardstuck at 100wpm even with touchtyping and I'm thinking ortho linear is the way to go.

[@UchihaAmruh]

Bruh I can't unsee the stagger on a regular keyboard now and it really bothers me lol. I think this is the first logical video that gave a case for ortholinear, great job! Gonna pull the trigger on one soon.

[@dumdum7786]

The reason the stagger exists is because old typewriters needed the keys to be staggered like that. Because of the way they were made, keys could not be in line, and when computers came along, they kept it that way so it wouldnt confuse people

[@brucesdad13]

Just built my first ortho. Your video is giving me the motivation to get accustomed to typing on it. At first, it felt all wrong because I hadn't noticed the stagger in all the keyboards I'd been typing on for 30 years.

[@BenVallack]

It’s strange at first isn’t it!

[@sunstryder]

Thanks for your thoughts on ortholinear! I was hesitant because I'm a bit lazy to learn a new layout... but your explanation makes me mad that I've accepted staggered this whole time

[@BenVallack]

Heh yeah I felt the same!!

[@radialbladeworks6183]

Ben, what the hell! That numbpad logic was flawless! Never would've thought of that. Excellent point, and a great video!

[@Savitzen]

I've been looking at getting an ortholinear keyboard for a while now, because i've been tired of fat fingering my keys when typing or even gaming and this just sold me on one.

[@hodonkain]

I used a Sony Viao keyboard most of my life when it came to gaming, mostly because the keys are ortho linear around the arrow keys. Then I switched to a Verbatim keyboard later in life for the same reason. I could never get use to WASD. This video make total sense. I'm looking forward to trying out an ortholinear keyboard.

[@DanielLucena13]

Hey man, awesome channel and content! I tried to get into the hobby last year but found it quite expensive and overwhelming. I decided to buy a fully assembled keyboard for my first one and it will probably be the Anne Pro 2, because I still find the Planck EZ a bit pricey, specially living in Brazil (shipping, customs, etc). Anyway, keep up the good work, this channel deserves to blow up!

[@BenVallack]

Thanks for your comments! Anne Pro 2 is a great place to start for sure.

[@Gle-lv2fm]

I've learned touch typing fairly recently, when I started I searched online to find the proper way to type, but the lack of symmetry between left and right hand movements instantly didn't make any sense to me, then I googled "why keyboard keys are not aligned" which led me to discovering ortholinear keyboards (and your channel). Now imagine if numpads were also horizontally staggered like the rest of the keyboard, it would be a nightmare.

[@_luismbo]

I find that the ortholinear layout really shines on curved keyboards like the Kinesis Advantage because t and y (and b/n, g/h, etc) become even closer to the index fingers.

[@BenVallack]

Interesting yeah would like to try one of those!

[@Morfilian]

Excellent and high quality content! Thanks for introducing me to the term "Skeuomorph". Looking forward to more videos!

[@BenVallack]

Many thanks!

[@Ruminatee]

Since we are talking about ortholinear being good for ergonomic purposes what about other alternatives that try to solve the same issue in the name of ergonomics? I recently built an alice layout keyboard with blank dsa keycaps for uniformity. I'd say that is a much easier jump for some people compared to ortholinear. Alice provides comfort for the wrist, as your hands naturally want to be shoulder width, with a certain amount of tilt to be comfortable. I wonder if an ortholinear would be hard to configure in this manner, since the the way the keys are positioned slope inward to the typist as you get to the center of the board. Not to mention the ortholinear market right now is conducive to catering people who love small sized boards. If the numpad was the great apologist for a non-staggered layout, what was the need to take it out of the first place? With my alice layout i have the perfect amount of width for my shoulders, the perfect angle for my hands to tilt in, and the perfect amount of "tenting" so my wrist arent so pronated.

[@kentslocum]

I think the perfect general-use ergonomic keyboard design is the upcoming Dygma Defy keyboard. It will be split for shoulder ergonomics, tented for wrist ergonomics, and columnar for finger ergonomics. They decided against perfectly ortholinear because our fingers are naturally slightly different lengths. I say "general purpose" because there will always be superusers who want even smaller or specialized keyboards.

[@BenVallack]

Way too many keys!!! Do you really want to be moving your thumb around that much?

[@kentslocum]

​@@BenVallack I understand the appeal of a minimalist keyboard, but the number of programmed layers can quickly become unwieldy for a casual typist such as myself. I don't write or program for a living, so a little extra thumb movement is worth the trade-off of having to program dozens of different layers for every key. Instead, I just use the four keys closest to my thumbs for shift, backspace, delete, and space. The other, more distant thumb keys will be used for infrequent functions such as adjusting media volume, switching layers, and keyboard lighting.

[@ariellara2585]

thank you very much for taking the time to make this video, my dear brother. your aura/feel is very cool and honest, I love your speech style and delivery, it really feels more like a cozy conversation with a knowedged friend rather than a rigid presentation, your script/improv is on point. I'll take notes for when I start making my own videos. secondly, I wanted to say I also found your video when I searched for ortholinear keyboards. lately I been trying to learn the dvorak key layout given I've always had a case of irreparable dyslexia for qwerty, dvorak makes more logical sense for me but while practicing I also came across the senselessness of the rows being staggered. thanks to you I'll be getting soon an ortholineal one soon. blessings to you and your efforts, my dear brother EDIT: never mind, looks like getting hold of an ortholinear keyboard is quite the hard deal if you live outside a first world nation given the fact that they cost a bit too much, about 2 months worth of house rent in my currency, for example. off course theres the option to make one yourself off aliexpress but off course that also takes too much money and a bit of knowledge and time none of which i have so for the time being i'll have to keep settling with the 1800s poor people's keyboard

[@BenVallack]

Two months house rent for a keyboard, that is a strange situation for sure. Hope something works out in the end.

[@ariellara2585]

@@BenVallack such situation its just the ever growing economical disparity between currencies of first world nations and third world ones. the cheapest ortholinear keyboard i've found so far goes for $230, which might be relative pocket change for the average american but once converted into my currency (mexican peso) that's $4672 (plus tax), being more than double of what i pay for 2 months worth of house rent on the outskirts ($2000MX=$98.45US/month). so such amount does seems a bit exaggerated for just a simple peripheral where comparatively on the other hand, you can buy a regular staggered keyboard for just $200MXN=$9.99US at walmart. It blows my mind you cant just get a plain black dull generic keyboard with this configuration but have to go to very niche sites. in the end, i guess things like this do belong to only the niche crowd

[@throwaway3227]

Interesting that you found the swap to ortholinear keyboard to be easy. I've gone through a large amounts of keyboards (compared to normal people, not compared to you 😁), and I found most things to be very easy. The swap to a split keyboard was trivial, adding thumb buttons was trivial, starting to use layers a bit harder, but going from staggered to ortholinear was without a doubt the largest step for me. It took me about a week to not consistently miss keystrokes, and I'm pretty sure I was occasionally hitting keys wrong over the coming months. It was worth it though. I'm now using the ZSA Voyager (with columnar staggered keys) and it's so comfortable to type on that I'm having troubles putting it into words.

[@codeChris]

Welp, I caved... You convinced me. I just ordered a Planck EZ! Your videos are what really got me interested and eventually got me to take the plunge(for both ortho and 40% board). I really hope this keyboard is as awesome/ productive as I want it to be. ooof it's a long shipping time though at 3 weeks. Timer starts.... now!

[@BenVallack]

Yeah it's awesome - there are still many reasons I prefer it even to the Moonlander. I'ts just so easy to feel your way around the board.

[@BenVallack]

Mine came sooner than 3 weeks by the way so fingers crossed!

[@codeChris]

@@BenVallack oh man I hope so! I'm recording my learning process (touch type in dvorak ) and figured it be the best time to adapt to a new keyboard arrangement as well.

[@codeChris]

@@BenVallack that is really great to hear. I was on the fence because I like the idea of a split keyboard to avoid discomfort for ergonomics... but i am learning dvorak layout for that purpose plus the orthographic bit seems to help with that as well. I saw your review of the moonlander and was glad to hear your preference was for the planck. There seemed a higher risk of getting a split keyboard and not enjoying the decision as much. Great videos, keep up the good work!

[@brianpalmer3413]

Love the videos. Subscribe. I recently switched to a 65% mechanical keyboard and love it. Baby steps! Like everyone else, now was the perfect time to rethink my setup and challenge my basic assumptions. It's also a great time to invest in making these ergonomic changes. I was thinking 40% and ortholinear was too big a change but you have me rethinking. I'm a Vim guy myself. When programming does the 40% create major issues with all the non-alphanumeric key presses?

[@BenVallack]

Thanks for your comments. Vim is a dream with this keyboard - it was using numbers and symbols on the top row of the 65% board that made me look at these actually. Just so much more accuracy when going for a key one row above home row rather than too. Learning curve is definitely a bit of a pain and I’m still making some memory slip ups but can correct easily without looking as needed. 65% is definitely a good safe step - I kind of realised that it didn’t really solve what I wanted it to though. But at that point this wasn’t on the market!

[@James-ys2dd]

Im just learning to touch type and noticed the stagger straightaway, my left hand is struggling so going to invest in an ortholinear, thanks for the vid

[@BenVallack]

Awesome you'll never have to learn the wrong way now! You could also look at columnar layout which is like a slightly more ergonomically tuned version of ortholinear. ZSA just released a new split columnar keyboard called the Moonlander which I'm currently testing. Videos coming soon.

[@James-ys2dd]

@@BenVallack cheers ben!

[@res.publica]

Yo, 't' being closer to my finger than 'y' blew me away, never thought about it! Do you find the ortholinear helps with RSI?

[@BenVallack]

I know right! Yeah impact on RSI is very interesting - actually possibly more as a result of 40% size but I go into some detail on that and how I no longer need any kind of wrist support with this board due to being able to hover the hands without loss of accuracy. That’s in my next video. Thanks for commenting!

[@matthewclark7032]

@@BenVallack I am definitely looking forward to hearing more about this!

[@N3ss3s]

Ergodox helped with my carpal tunnel syndrome, but I doubt the ortholinear has much to do with it, split and tilt is more important to me in a goodd ergo board than just ortholinear layout. Though, I can't deny that it helped too :) I can't say about RSI, because the issue is vastly different, changing the heaviness of your swithes to 40g, something like speed silvers will help with RSI too.

[@res.publica]

XPkake for me, in addition to all that, what helped switching to ortho for me, was discovering my bad habits, namely the reach in backspace and shift. Moving things around so they were underneath my fingers via layers had a huge effect.

[@seekyeefirstforsound]

Really love the videos you've put up. Totally spoke my mind when I was thinking of moving towards ortholiner. Even made caps my backspace on my 60 pct. Also using the Anne Pro 2. Great audio balance you've achieved. Pleasing, straight to the point and really comforting. Definately moving towards ortholiner after this.

[@BenVallack]

Thanks for your comments! Really glad you enjoyed them. Yeah ortholinear is one of those things you’ll kick yourself for not doing sooner!

[@ATM-Tech]

Hey man just got recommended to your channel! Your production quality is pretty high for being so small. You seem pretty knowledgeable too. You are definitely getting a subscribe from me. I'm excited to see where you go.

[@BenVallack]

Thanks for your comments :) Look forward to sharing more with you!

[@stopthephilosophicalzombie9017]

With all due respect, what does production quality have to do with anything as long as the information is good? I appreciate fancy cameras and rolling dolly shots and stuff, but if the information is lacking, I'll forget about the channel in a second.

[@BenVallack]

@@stopthephilosophicalzombie9017 I don't think anyone is saying it's a substitute for good info and I certainly hope that isn't the case here :)

[@EvanArgenal]

This does make complete sense, man now I want to try an ortho linear set up 😩

[@MAGAIVER]

The KPrepublic BM40 is an excellent entry point to Ortholinear keyboards, it's simple to build easy to configura the keymap with VIA and depending on you parts choices it is not very expensive. You could even just get a pcb plate and switches and use the bare pcb with some rubber feet on it.

[@gabek1120]

As someone with coordination and hand issues. I think my fingers can not use the not staggered kind. The stagger helps when i move my hands to the space i need to. Theres this neurologist test my old chiropractor used to do where you stretch your hands out and with your finger try to tap your nose, if you missed you know things are off and he would do an adjustment that helps improve that coordination and balance related to this. I haven't had that adjustment in years (he died so i havent found a chiropractor as good as him, he wasnt like an average one he was also a functional neurologist) so i think the stagger actually helps me miss less of the keys. Idk why but i tested based off your idea with the number pad vs the normal staggering of the rest of my keyboard and when typing, when i move my hand or fingers on each i miss the number pad keys more. And yea i move my whole hand not just fingers because your wrist will suffer if they are in one place for too long. You're better off not keepung them always in the same spot. Just using your sense of touch and memory of what key you where on last to go from place to place on the board is better. Thats what i got taught at least as a kid. Your wrist will need a specific position or angle to not hurt but I've learned how to hold my hand much like the way you'd hold a Japanese brush for Calligraphy in a special position while using it. Which btw Calligraphy clearly hurts less, instead of moving your wrist your moving your whole arm, as someone with carpal tonnel this applies to keybaord typing too, hence why i hold my write in that posution i know it will prevent wrist pain. Once the keyboard is memorized you only occasionally need to look down at it. I could be wrong but i think maybe that is part of your problem. Remembering what button you where on so you dont move as much.

[@potatosmasher1072]

This production quality + your style is just fantastic. Easy sub decision

[@potatosmasher1072]

(I still have critiques of course, but overall I’m impressed!)

[@CheewiiBlue]

Great video, amazing production quality! I was so shocked when you talked about the subscribers expecting about a few thousand, but wow you really deserve way more. Really interesting video too, I too had just assumed that staggered keys were naturally more ergonomic since it had to be standard for a reason. But what you mentioned about typewriters and mechanical pragmatism being the real reason behind it really drove home the point. But that doesn't make it any more easy to find, so my question is that if you are someone that is forced to switch back and forth with staggered anyway out of circumstance (like when using laptops), is there any point in using ortho for the main keyboard or will that just confuse your muscle memory every time you switch?

[@BenVallack]

Thanks for your comments :) hopefully the subscribers will get there as I make more vids. I am quite late to this as didn’t start until this year. Find the whole thing very interesting but mostly I love making films and I love product design and designing workflows etc so I figured I need to give it a go! Your comments are very encouraging so thank you. Yeah switching isn’t something you really want to do once you’re really natural on the ortholinear I think. That’s really why I like the Planck EZ because it’s so light, small and uses USB so you can literally just keep it with you and use it with whatever device you’re using. “Phone, wallet, keys, Planck’ when you go out the door! Heh.

[@chrissjafiroeddin2851]

Great production quality! Now, give us your favorite ortholinear mechs!

[@BenVallack]

See my reviews and other videos on the Planck EZ. Pretty unmatched if you want the convenience of something off the shelf!

[@disarmyouwitha]

Coming from an Alice layout (specifically: Sagittarius) I found ortho/columnar surprisingly easy to pick up!

[@zebadiahdrees6613]

This account has a genius premise! Excited to watch more!

[@nategell]

You do such an amazing job of explaining these benefits! I've been tossing up between whether or not I should jump to ortholinear, but I think you've just helped me make up my mind. cheers!

[@BenVallack]

heh cheers :) Yeah I have zero regrets - it's perfect :) The split version they also sell is probably even better but very bulky and non-portable.

[@nategell]

@@BenVallack How do you go not having a number row? I'm assuming you have them on a separate layer.

[@BenVallack]

Yeah numbers on the upper layer along the top row. That’s actually one of the main appeals with this and a big part of why I changed - fed up of stretching to the number row on the large keyboard.

[@flaviomauri]

I always viewed the keyboard vs numpad alignment as: we learned to type on typewriters and we learned to input numbers on calculators. I don't think there's any ergonomic choice of the numpad just like it seems widely accepted that we have staggered layout for historical reasons. That being said, I agree and touch devices should most definitely offer orto in the options!

[@bld86]

for me the staggered layout is actually helpful, as i can't afford a split keyboard yet, it helps me keep my hands at a more ergonomic 45 degree angle. so if you imagine my hands sitting like that, the problem of letters being shifted actually goes away because for example,the D and R letters are in a straight line for my middle finger.

[@BenVallack]

That’s the problem though - R isn’t for your middle finger :)

[@bld86]

@@BenVallack ehhh, that line of reasoning doesn't make much sense, because i'm not typing the standard way ( hands straight ) in the first place. This way of typing has some drawbacks, one of which is the middle row being a sort of no mans land. But i use dvorak so those keys aren't used much anyway. I want to switch to an ergodox though and that has ortolinear by default

[@hkravch]

Welcome to the rabbit hole, split keyboards, dactryl manuform, and funky QMQ features you've never heard of, keyabord switches and keycaps.

[@IllogicGate]

Ben: So the staggered layout makes you do ridiculous asymmetrical things with your body, everything's pulling to the left Violinists and flute players watching this video: "Oh no, what a nightmare!"

[@Ang3lUki]

I've been touch typing since I was in elementary school. 2 minutes in and I'm sold on ortholinear. I always was bothered by staggered keys, It felt so imbalanced and weird, but I just kind of figured it was that way for good reason. I'm excited.

[@BenVallack]

Welcome to the journey!

[@Ang3lUki]

@@BenVallack I haven't even touched an ortho board and you describing switching as "It felt like I had been battling staggered keys my whole life" resonates with me.

[@maxxiong]

Something else I have since realized: QWERTY only works on staggered keyboards because the N key is too far away on ortho. I can also type dvorak so this isn't a problem (I can actually do both now cuz I don't change OS layout anymore lol), but it definitely makes more sense for alt layouts. It's a shame the newer quefrency and sinc hotswap boards don't actually have the more thumb key options and you have to get something expensive like the raise.

[@Cyromantik]

Got another subscriber here, I'm all about design and usability, so I'm looking forward to more videos from you, thank you!

[@vonzellable]

Thank you. I was wondering if I could get used to an Ortholinear. I am ready to bite the bullet and give it a try.

[@jpalacios117]

Vonzell Charlton sadly theyre kinda hard to get.

[@BenVallack]

In what sense?

[@jpalacios117]

Ben Vallack you can just choose between the planck ez and the niu40, boh of them are kinda expensive and shipping fees are bananas in some countries so you have to expect other people to import them, which they never do because not enough peole would buy them.

[@BenVallack]

Ah I see what you mean. Hopefully as more people see how good they are we’ll see better availability and options etc.

[@strat0caster124]

My intuitive thoughts on ergonomics: human are born (kinda) symmetrical, but the normal keyboard layout is not. Therefore it's probably not ergonomic. I really want to try out something that's a bit more symmetrical like an ortholinear keyboard someday...

[@BenVallack]

Exactly.

[@13n1304]

I think staggered can be better, it depends on how you angle your hands. Another advantage is that keys are easier to distinguish by position. If you are off on a staggered keyboard the chances of hitting the wrong column are reduced. But I would love to try ortholinear. BTW the thing with the typewriters is not only true for the staggering but for the positions of the letters as well. The default arrangement of the letters is complete garbage, personally I switched to a different layout which is based on statistics so most common letters are on easy to reach keys and common letter combinations tend to be on different fingers. It's not dvorak but based on the same concept, if you are interested in optimizing your keyboard and getting rid of old typewriter crap I would suggest to look in to other layouts as well :)

[@BenVallack]

Yep switched to Workman soon after making this video actually!

[@sluggibammy]

this man gives me the most chill feeling

[@zacharyunwin8552]

This video was so clean, and well made and so so fun and informative.. Subbed. Hope we can start a shift to ortholinear keyboards ❤️

[@IllogicGate]

In all seriousness, I do find the ortho layout really interesting (as much as I just want to be happy with my new Keychron K2), and it makes a lot of sense. Do you find it's easy to stay "backward compatible" with staggered keyboards in case you need to use a laptop or someone else's keyboard? And similarly, would someone be able to pretty much knock out a couple sentences without incident if they had to sit down and type something in at my computer with my Strange All-Numpad Keyboard?

[@thedeegan]

I don't know. I feel that ortho makes me twist my wrists outwards

[@mattymerr701]

Probably, maybe it is just because you get used to having your wrists turned inwards so that you eventually learn that inward twist as being a neutral twist and a no twist as being an outward twist?

[@mokmokfish2910]

@@mattymerr701 yes

[@FreshAirRules]

Use a 2 piece keyboard and change your wrist angle anytime you want. Change is always good for ergonomics. 1 piece ortho keyboards make no sense at all. 2 piece is the only way to go. Also its way more compact for mobile users. Pick your mechanical type of keys, wired or wireless and you're done. Perfection has arrived in your house.

[@Xayuap]

actually is worse than twist for your left hand in staggered

[@drnoone3596]

From my understanding Qwerty was designed to slow typist down bc of old mech typewriters. Great vid thx

[@Jhat]

I’m making this up, but also maybe I heard it somewhere. The staggering of a classic keyboard is holdover from design constraints of tour writers which is the only reason they were staggered to begin with. Given that no one has used type writers for some time now, we just need companies to notice this foolishness in mass and make the change.

[@nickgoogle4525]

If you look closely you will see that specially the bottom left is the problem with the "correct" fingering. Using the index finger for c (in qwerty) and x with the middle finger, z with the ring finger solves the most problematic key placements -- not perfect, but pretty good. Then a staggered keyboard is surely not as good as ortholinear, but very usable. Most annoying keys then stay the Y and B, because they force a large stretch. But the advantage is that you can still use a laptop keyboard in that way.

[@sto2779]

I completely agree with you. It is completely stupid how the staggered keyboards makes ur fingers move in angles. Which completely has no valid benefits.

[@UltraZelda64]

It's three years after this video was posted... and ortholinear keyboards seem to be just as dead, if not even more dead, than they were way back in the early to mid 2000s when I first learned of them and alternate keyboard layouts. Sad, because I've always been interested... but they're possibly harder than ever to find now. Back then they were expensive for even the more common generic rubber dome/membrane models... now they're flat-out impossible to find anywhere. The other problem I had with finding them, other than the fact that they were all crappy rubber domes, is that they were usually some stupid "split" layout or 40% board. I could never find any good fullsize variants (or even TKL, or 75/70/65/60%).

[@BrazenNL]

This isn't going to ever change, unless a company makes a ballsy move like Apple did with USB. If it weren't for them, it would have taken much longer to to get rid of all the different connectors we had for keyboard, mouse, printer, etc. Same for floppy disks and optical.

[@root9065]

This is a very good channel idea and content quality. I have subscribed ;)

[@elfoenaci2]

This like My 20th time watching your vid and it always strikes me as, the people's exhibit A. "If it pleases the court, your keyboards are MAD, wrong and injurious. Here's why...." Like, how can you possibility provide a counter argument for staggered after this? Bravo

[@BenVallack]

Heh thanks :) yeah it was funny I was making the video and thought there was a reasonable point to be made, but the more I looked into it the more I realised what I was looking at!!

[@xybersurfer]

that's great! only thing i would be worried about is not always having access to an ortholinear keyboard. it does seem like more natural layout

[@MAGAIVER]

I can go bak and forth on my ortholiner keyboards (3 very different ones) and a standard macbook keyboard, It is a bit weird at first but after a while of using it muscle memory kicks back in. And that's going from colemak on the ortho's to qwerty on the macbook.

[@vividist]

Appreciate the detailed video with the visuals! Subscribed 👍🏻

[@jamesbpgm]

When you remove the legacy history of staggering from the equation but keep the ergonomy (your hand should stay straight coming at an angle to your keyboard!) and you add the logical consistency of ortholinear (finger in a grid) then you should find out that "columnar staggering" is the best of the two worlds. We are no machines, our hand and fingers are not in a grid.

[@BenVallack]

Did you see my other vidoes on the Moonlander?

[@jamesbpgm]

@@BenVallack Good videos. Good thing you took the time and thought through of the ergonomics pros and cons. I hope your shoulders are getting better. I think the staggering on the moonland is almost inexistant but the tenting and split makes a huge difference. You made good points. It looks awesome too and I'm big fan of splits. Thanks. Try considering heavier staggering like Kyria if you can :)

[@mustaqimhadi6381]

Never noticed how terrible the standard keyboard layout is until i just started to learn how to type fast. So here i am now

[@EclipsedAscent]

Hope your channel grows bro

[@BenVallack]

Thanks!

[@5olano]

Just wanted to say that I really enjoy your videos. They are high quality, have a nice tone and pace and are always informative. Stay safe and keep it up !

[@450aday]

there are some nice looking hexagon keycapped keyboards on Amazon, with these sorts of boards it's the wrist action people like. The wrist's don't do much on a ortholinear style board, with ortholinear typing is like stroking a cat with almost no wrist action at all.

[@Lroland66]

You rock man. This is such an interesting video

[@RykerFreegeld]

Excellent video. Very insightful. You've got yourself a new sub.

[@MirkoMicheleDimartino]

My mind is blown. 🤯 Ordering a ortholinear keyboard NOW

[@gradientO]

Excellent video! Subscribed

[@bigrat4780]

while learning how to type, I noticed how my left hand got more tired than the right because of the staggered keys. really weird that most keebs keep the staggered layout. I think it makes more sense to have our muscle memory remember something more symmetrical.

[@BenVallack]

Yeah I totally agree.

[@MAGAIVER]

I found that qwerty tends to use the left hand more than the right one at least for typing in Portuguese, and moving to colemak helped that a lot, for english on my experiments I found that Colemak DH is better but as my native language is Portuguese I stuck to regular colemak.

[@AlexNguyen]

Great point about the numpad!

[@stefanhansen5882]

This was nerdish. Good stuff! :)

[@davidchalon5466]

Thx for the argument of num pad !! Never thought about this one

[@BenVallack]

It’s a game changer - makes the top row totally obsolete and paves the way for 40% for your primary layout.

[@davidchalon5466]

@@BenVallack hi, thx for answer, not sure to understand :) you like the num pad, or think it's not usefull ? (note that in french layout top row numbers needs a shift or caps lock to work !)

[@BenVallack]

David CHALON I love the num pad. Extremely useful and means you don’t need a top row. What do your top row keys do without shirt/caps lock?

[@MatVeiQaaa]

got ortholinear keyboard recently and i got used to it in roughly 4 days. Then i decided i want to learn switching between staggered and ortho fast - that took 1.5-2 weeks to switch in less than 10 minutes and be able to type at 100+ wpm, which is normal for me.

[@jammies701]

Such a fantastic video I had to come back a fourth time

[@extremecat9863]

this video was in my recommended tab! Good job!

[@lanik8163]

Never thought about it, but now that I do I don't think I'm convinced. Like I absolutely agree with everything that was said in the video. It's just I write completely differently. My initial hand position is different to start off and then my hands move non symmetrically to begin with. My left hand in place ready to press and hold keys, while my right is flying all over the place, including using the mouse (which I use quite extensively, even while writing). Which true, I learned to do that because of the layout, not despite. It's just personally I don't have much to gain from the switch. I also still haven't seen a single ortholinear keyboard that doesn't remove quite a lot of keys, which is DEFINITELY a no go for me.

[@BenVallack]

Removing keys is the way forward :)

[@ColocasiaCorm]

This isn’t mad. THIS. IS. Sparta.

[@michaelnugraha7465]

excellent production quality

[@roguemyst1244]

Never thought about it that way before…interesting. I know this is late, but I’m curious what your thoughts are on the columnar layout (staggered vertically because our fingers are different lengths but in a grid horizontally for the same reasons as ortho).

[@BenVallack]

Yep arguably columnar is better, but if your hands are tented a bit your fingers are remarkably good at accommodating the lack of column offset.

[@Shakenbake-in9ux]

I think you should address the fact that a lot of issues with keyboards arise from the fact that you are forced to angle your arms inwards, and angle your wrists outwards thereafter. Saying that ortho helps with anything is disingenuous, because as it stands, you still need to come in at an angle to type comfortably. Unless of course, your arms stick straight out of your chest perpendicularly.Theres a reason these orthos are most popular in split keyboards, where you can align each half of a keyboard with your hand and arm. Otherwise, a staggered layout is more intuitive for a typing experience.

[@BenVallack]

This is actually a bit of a misconception and I will show why in another video. Even with split keyboards its much easier to use them if you rotate each half outwards - this actually results in a very similar wrist to home-row angle as with a joined board. The stagger is doing nothing to make anything easier with a joined board - mostly because it's totally asymmetrical!

[@matthewclark8137]

Really enjoyed this video, helped me decide on going with an ortho keyboard, Keep it up man!

[@NANNIII]

Really good video, quality is amazing and the content is too

[@timothyjholloway]

Ortholinear sounds perfect. Combined with the Dvorak keyboard layout, that pretty much gets rid of the curse of the mechanical typewriter.

[@drumrollplease631]

However comes the curse of the mechanical keyboard

[@Instinct0425]

5:34 100% man, i feel the same way. although instead of getting an ortholinear board, i’m gonna get a columnar stagger one since it looks more comfy to me. i hate standard row stagger because i feel like i’m fighting it instead of my fingers just fluently moving across the keyboard. i have small hands, too, so i often have to re-adjust them on a standard row stagger qwerty keyboard. since i’m also gonna learn how to use a 36 key with choc switches and columnar stagger, i might as well learn a whole new layout as well like colemak or workman :P. i’m going to get the gergoplex and I hope it improves my back pain after sitting at a desk for hours and hours each day :)

[@BenVallack]

Awesome, you’re basically following the same line of thinking that led me to the GergoPlex too kzbin.info/www/bejne/mojJgpirjal-ldE

[@oldmanyellsatkeyboards]

Nice vid! I could never touch type until I tried ortholinear... then it just clicked. I agree with the logic behind a 40% layout for minimising finger travel, however I find the form factor too compact to be ergonomic, so I prefer the 75 key ortho layout (5x15) so I can have a wider layout with 3 columns in the middle. Also, thoughts on QWERTY? It's another leftover from the typewriter days.

[@BenVallack]

Yeah one day I'll pluck up the courage to invest the time to re-learn an alternative to qwerty! I have a video coming out later today that looks in more detail at the 40% so I'd be interested to see what you think of my thoughts there regarding your 75 key ortholinear. Moving your hands further apart definitely has an appeal - I actually tried splitting the two halves on the 40% board by moving the letter keys out one column each side. Quite fun but seemed too much of a shame to loose the additional keys that could be accessed with pinkies on the edges.

[@BenVallack]

Ok since you mentioned I thought I'd look into alternatives to Qwerty. Ive switched to Workman!! This will be fun! workmanlayout.org/

[@oldmanyellsatkeyboards]

@@BenVallack I'll check out your new vid mate! If I had to use a 40%, i'd do what you said and move the letters to the edges, doing without the outer column. For usability I prefer the full grid 48 key layout over the 47 key MIT layout the Planck EZ uses.

[@oldmanyellsatkeyboards]

​@@BenVallack Wow you're progressing quickly into the abyss. You know there's no coming back now right? I went Colemak a few years ago, it really helped my RSI and typing fatigue. You should document your progression, milestones, that sort of thing!

[@BenVallack]

Kieran Stevens Heh yeah tell me about it - hitting keybr.com hard!

[@flashcloud666]

Subbed. I hope your channel takes off.

[@MrScottMagnus]

I had my 2nd Typematrix 2020 die on me the other day and I've watched your videos on otholinear and the Moonlander. Great stuff, thank you. The Typematrix is ortholinear as well and I find it wonderful to type on and the slight separation of the main typing keys (the enter and backspace are in the center) is definately more comfortable. I'd love to see if the increased separation possible with the Moonlander makes a difference in my shoulder pain.

[@BenVallack]

Thanks for your comments!

[@wkatz0]

Thanks for the video. A word of warning to anybody -- hopping into ortholinear (especially split on the Moonlander), I could not type at all. AT ALL. It was functionally useless. ONLY consider this if you type a TON, because you will spend tens of hours relearning how to type, and it will backwards-interfere any time you go back to a staggered keyboard.

[@BenVallack]

Take a day off, spend it all on keybr.com - that should get go going enough to progress from there as you normally work.

[@wkatz0]

@@BenVallack I appreciate the response. For me, personally, I don't type enough to be worth it. I was moreso looking for a solution to shoulder tension, which I think I'll find by switching to a split ergo keyboard, albeit with staggered keys.

[@BenVallack]

@@wkatz0 Yeah I think that's probably true - however for me, the transition from staggered really was pretty quick. Changing the layout from Qwerty to Workman, not so much!!

[@wkatz0]

@@BenVallack Fair enough. Also my experience is within the context of the Moonlander, which is both ortholinear and wildly different from a standard layout. It was too overwhelming!

[@TheVcm060]

Got a moonlander because of you only to want to switch to a corne or a gergoplex now ;D I'm loving it btw. Hard to go back to a normal keyboard.

[@BenVallack]

Yeah these tiny boards are cool, I think lots of people find once they can customise the layout that they reduce the size of it. But changing the layout is so easy with the Moonlander it’s a great way to figure all that out.

[@TheVcm060]

@@BenVallack I have to say, I love the customization. I'm down to a 42 key layout right now, and it feels like the sweet spot for me. I don't like adding too many of the dual purpose keys because it adds a delay from when you tap to when the character appears on the screen. It's never as smooth as a single-function key. Having several layers helps.

[@vegetableball]

I think it worths it. I feel my touch typing improved after adopted ortholinear keyboard.