Beowulf: The J.R.R. Tolkien Translation Book Review & Reaction | With Guest Philip Chase

Mike is joined by Philip to talk the legendary tale of Beowulf and the 1926 translation by J.R.R. Tolkien.
You can purchase the Tolkien translation of Beowulf here: amzn.to/3MVPyX8 (physical) amzn.to/3i5jBxo (digital)
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#MikesBookReviews #Beowulf #Tolkien

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thanks for inviting me for this chat, Mike! Discussing this major inspiration for so much fantasy with you was a pleasure and an honor. Plus, it’s always fantastic to have a chance to talk with you, my friend.

[@brush2canvas849]

Þæt wæs forwundorlic! Ic þancie þē!

[@KingCrusoe]

I would like to make a formal trade deal with you, Mr. Phillip Chase. I receive, a freaking awesome professor-type friend who I learn all sorts of cool stuffs from You receive, my friendship and the absolute geeky nerdiness that comes with it. What say you, sir? Hahaha

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@KingCrusoe Sounds awesome!

[@currangill430]

@@KingCrusoe Why didn't I think of this?

[@turtleanton6539]

Interesting to see you my man

[@theoa126]

It's 6am, I'm barely awake, and that intro got me thinking I had a stroke 😵‍💫

[@bridleybateson5622]

😂 What an intro!

[@mikouf9691]

The intro brings back memories! In high school (late 1980s) my high school teacher played a portion of an audio recording of Beowulf read in Old English. It's been that long since I read the poem. Mike's decision to read it and his announcement of this video inspired me to reread it. I chose the Heaney translation, but when I have some space in my TBR, I'd like to read a couple of other translations, including Tolkien's.

[@libraryofaviking]

I have been so excited to watch this! Loved the intro 👏

[@AdamThayer]

Dammit Mike and Philip... 28 minutes into a discussion on a book I had no interest in reading, and I find myself hunting down a translation to add to my TBR. Great discussion gents!

[@curtjarrell9710]

Thanks Mike and Dr. Chase for this chat about Beowulf. The old English sounds a bit like Klingon to me. lol

[@Altruismisreal27]

Wow, that went really quickly. Excellent conversation!

[@shawnturpin197]

I think I might owe Philip for tuition after watching this.

[@MacScarfield]

A truly epic chat! As for Dragonslaying, there are even older stories: The Greeks had Heracles and the Hydra, Zeus and Typhoon, Apollo and Python. The Indians had Indra and Vitra, the Hittites had Tarhunt and Illuyanka, the Vikings had Thor and Jormundgandr/The Midgard Serpent, and in the Bible Yahweh defeats Leviathan. This example, as well as the Germanic Seigfried/Norse Sigurd, is often tied to the PIE (Proto Indo-European) migration of people, language and religion/ideas from the Steppes north of the Black Sea (what is now modern day Ukraine and Southwestern Russia), across most of Europe and Western Asia, aided by the taming of the horse and battle chariots. This recurring theme has been named “Chaoskampf”/The Struggle of order vs Chaos: The Dragon (just as the Jotuns, Giants, and Grendel) represents chaos, while the Sky/Storm God represents order/Civilization. There is a theory tying Grendel to Ingeld, the enemy of the Scylding Kings Hrothgar and Hrolf In Beowulf, Ingeld is the son of King Froda of the Heaðobard tribe warring with the Danes rule by the Scyling Dynasty. He becomes the Son in Law of King Hrothgar/Hroar, but the poet tells us (spoilers! 😆 I jest, just some dramatic irony from the poet) that this will not stop him from burning down Hrothgar’s Hall Heorot sometime in the future (In the Commentary, Tolkien compares the Doom of Heorot, with the Doom of Camelot in Arthurian Myth and mentions a theory that the origin of the conflict between the Heathobards and the Scyldings, was the control/royal legitimacy tied to a Temple dedicated to the Vanir Fertility Gods of the Norse: Njord and his children Frey and Freya). In Hrolf Kraki’s Saga, Froda is the son of Ingjald (reversed in the Skjoldung Saga and the Bjarkarimur), slays his brother Halfdan/Healfdene, but is in return killed by Halfdan’s sons Hroar and Helge/Helgi. Hroar (Here the King of Northumbria) is killed by his nephew Hroki (the son of Hroar and Helge’s sister) when he refused to give Hroki a ring that was Hroar’s part of the inheritance of Halfdan. Hroki is then in turn killed by Hroar’s son Agnar. Later the Berserker Bodvar Bjarki defeats a monster haunting Hrolf Kraki’s Hall at Yule Times, and slays a boar-shaped troll sent by King Adhils of the Swedes. In Gesto Danorum, there are multiple mentions of Ingjald/Ingild 1. Father of Agnar, who is engaged to Hrolfs sister, but gets cut in half by the Berserker Bodvar Bjarki 2. Son of Frode/Frodi, lives the life of wastrel, angering the old warrior Starkad when he marry the daughter of Swerting (king of the Saxons, who killed Frodi). Starkad leaves to serve the King of the Swedes, but return, and convinces Ingjald to kill the sons of Swerting and divorce his wife. 3. A family feud as Hrolf Kraki’s Saga, here Ingjald is father of Frodi and Halfdan. Sonya R. Jensen identifies Grendel with Agnar, son of Ingeld in Gesta Danorum, and suggests that the tale of the first two monsters is actually the tale of Ingeld, that the Scholar Alcuin of York mentions in the 790s (“the most learned man in the world” and according to Einhard, the biographer of Charlemagne, whose court Alcuin joined to spearhead the Carolingian Renaissance, from which we among other things have the origin of lower case letters). Agnar gets cut in half by Bodvar Bjarki (“the warlike bear”) and died a "with his lips separated into a smile"; Meanwhile Grendel "died laughing", and was gren-dael[ed] or "grin-divid[ed]", when his arm gets torn off by Beowulf (bee-wolf or bear). Possibly the reason for burning down Heorot/a Parent seeking revenge for their son? Using different stories, I have been so bold as to try to imagine the outlines the lost tale of Ingeld/Ingjald that Alcuin mentions, as a quasi-Wagnerian Opera/Shakespearean Tragedy: “The Heathbards”/ “The Ingildiad” Part 1: Ingjald the Elder, king of the Heathbards and protector of a Temple of Njord, Frey & Freya, witness his father slayed by the Saxon King Swerting. As a youth he is wastrel that gets called to action by his father’s old champion Starkad: Slaying his brothers in law and divorcing Swerting’s Daughter. He fathers Frodi and foster Halfdan (later Danish king). After his father’s death, Frodi (son of Ingjald and the Saxon Princess), kills his foster brother Halfdan (the favorite of his father, inheriting the Temple and the Ring symbolizing sovereignty) and takes his kingdom, his wife, the temple and the ring, but gets killed by Hroar and Helge, the sons of Halfdan. Part 2: Ingjald the Younger, son of Frodi, son in law of Hroar, slays Hroar & burns Heorot, but gets killed by Hrolf, son of Helge. Agnar, son of Ingjald the Younger (grandson of Hroar?): Is gonna marry Hrolf’s sister Rute/Skuld, but gets killed by Bodvar Bjarki after harrassing the youth Hott, the future hero and companion of Bodvar, Hjalti. (This scene can both be before or after Ingjald the Younger burns down Heorot and dying) Similar to the Norse Norns/Witches in Macbeth, the play ends with Ursa/Yrse (mother of Hrolf) marring King Athils of Sweden and Rute/Skuld (sister of Hrolf) marring Heoroweard/Hjorvard, (Petty King of Oland and Scania/Jarl of Sweden for Hrolf), and retell how now the stage is set for the events of the Saga of Hrolf Kraki.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Hello, MacScarfield! Someone must write this lost saga of Ingeld! Thanks for sharing your always informed and cool thoughts here. These old tales are a fantastic playground, aren’t they?

[@MacScarfield]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy As always you are much too kind about my ravings, dear Professor! I am just a humble man with a peg board and a lot of red thread! The theory by Jensen does indeed intrigue me to postulate this “missing link” between Beowulf and the Norse Sagas!

[@MacScarfield]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Professor, I just remembered that I have got Tolkien’s “Finn and Hengest : The Fragment and the Episode” and wondered if you had read it as a scholar or privately?

[@Johanna_reads]

Thank you both for this wonderful discussion! I love Beowulf, and this story seems so special to our genre, especially as it was special to Tolkien! Fascinating how Beowulf's machismo gets him killed and how that adds layers to this lament regarding bravery, desire for fame, and futility. Mike, it sounds like you would enjoy a history of rock class!

[@BaldBookTuber]

Awesome discussion, and obviously I’m happy any time a new potential Crichton fan is created.

[@EricMcLuen]

That Tolkein guy seems pretty smart and might have a future in literature.... Excellent discussion. There is a lot of romanticizing of the pagan past after the conversion to Xianity. King of like the noble savage trope. Norse cultures in particular ad its mythology did not mesh well. And slaying of the dragon is a common story often linked to a creation myth, like the slaying of Tiamat by Marduk. Another is the equating of the ocean with a primordial chaos/source of all things, i.e. face of the deep.

[@turtleanton6539]

Nah his stuff is to unrealistic

[@avi4905]

I have been waiting for this talk for so long and finally its here. And what a great conversation and education. Thank you so much for the great content

[@inanimatecarbongod]

Oh, this was better than I thought it would be. I now need to reread Beowulf and then rewatch this. I would very much like to take Philip's course now too. And then read all the Norse stuff too. And the Tain Bo Cuailgne. And the Nibelungenlied. Goddamn I have some work ahead of me...

[@andreamiller3578]

Thank you guys so much! This was so much fun to listen to.

[@currangill430]

I love these discussions. I love any interview with Phillip Chase!

[@wacoglee]

This was just great! Thank you both. I know I will be watching this again when I reread Beowulf. What a wonderful gift

[@mitch8948]

Do they have the same glasses?

[@avsambart]

This was so great!! Need to read it asap now 😍

[@dannysandoval5467]

3 min and 15 seconds in and I’m already learning stuff and am intrigued.. hahah ,awesome job guys! Looking forward to the rest

[@johnscroggins7897]

fascinating discussion guys I will definitely be reading this story in the near future

[@grvhppr]

Thank you so much for putting this out. I’ll be putting Tolkien’s Beowulf on my list. The talk of influences at the end really hit home and has inspired me to do the same with some of my favorite authors.

[@robertfrank3089]

This is great...I am just finishing reading this for my book club tomorrow night. Thank you!

[@Verlopil]

I'm late to this video, but I just wanted to comment on how much I enjoyed it. I came to Beowulf late after watching the 13th Warrior and reading Eaters of the Dead. I fell in love with the musicality of the language, that driving rhythm and alliteration that was hypnotizing. (I feel like Robert E Howard must have been a fan of Beowulf because some of his prose descriptions fall into a similar rhythm.) I haven't read the Tolkien essay or his translation, but now I'm going to pick them up. I'm also subscribing to Mr. Chase's channel. Thanks for the video!

[@SmurfyKimberly]

I loved this so much!! Great discussion, you two are fabulous together, looking forward to the Crichton discussion, I truly hope it happens. I have been studying/reading Norse/Viking history and find it all so fascinating. Great content! 💯

[@goshogazaka9259]

Epic

[@buckfozos5554]

All right, ready for Philip's Old English translation of Crichton! Great talk guys, hopefully more to come between you two in the future.

[@Thecatladybooknook_PennyD]

Watching in parts!

[@ravenbellebooks5665]

This is what I needed in high school. Thank y'all so much!

[@mikesbookreviews]

Our pleasure!

[@NKopp714]

I just requested "Eaters of the Dead" from my local library based on this video. Great discussion!

[@gerdforster883]

That was great. Now do the Nibelungenlied! (You may use an english translation)

[@khod3337]

Two of my favourite KZbinrs this can't be bad 😎 quickest hour of my life 😂😂

[@Thorbearius]

This was a great chat! And I saw that Philip recently finished Esters of the Dead so I hope that you manage to get that Eaters of the Dead discussion happen soon. Perhaps after that you could read and discuss Grendel by John Gardner 😅

[@dinocollins720]

This video started playing while I was in the other room and all I heard was (what I imagined as) some orc or Viking speech going on. I was wondering what on earth KZbin was playing for me haha

[@spencerainsworth269]

Awesome intro

[@thelastancient]

Awesome discussion, loved it very much. I had a question for Philip. What do you think about the Dick Ringler translation? I personally prefer it to the Heaney version but am very curious to hear your thoughts if you have the time. Thanks for the video!

[@turtleanton6539]

Do more classics like these!

[@thtadthtshldntbe]

Awesome Review and interview!. There is a book called The Viking Spirit by Daniel McCoy, written back in 2016. It is written like a college level text book as if for a class on the mythology and religion of the Viking Age (end of 8th century AD to end of 12th century AD). The only actual surviving sources from the Viking age itself were skaldic poetry fragments on markers, tombs and the remnants of holy places. Plus archeological evidence. The actual first time any of the Viking era religion, myths and folklore were written down was based on those fragments. Those were Poetic Edda and the Prose Edda and the old Icelandic Sagas, which, as pointed out in this interview, were all Christian. Not that they did it on purpose but the early Christian scholars often gave the older fragments a Christian interpretation. The Germanic peoples like the Celts did not write down their history, stories or religion, which is why no original copies of Beowulf exist from during that older era.

[@Nikelaos_Khristianos]

I must offer one, although, I might say one and a half(?) small additions and my own thoughts: Firstly, the Christian monks in Iceland who preserved the stories in the Poetic Edda may have been Christian, but they actually often refrained from Christian interpretations of these stories. Often that's something we transpose onto the Icelandic tradition as a result of looking at traditions from Christian European countries. This tradition is unique to Iceland, as they seemed to have a genuine and vested interest in preserving their old cultural traditions for the sake of austerity. In fact, it was only in the Prose Edda that Snorri tried to compile these stories into a confluent narrative (hence why the narrative itself can lose track and make absurd contradictions at times.) It's also fair to ask why this was the case. Chiefly, Iceland's geographic location is a good candidate because despite being Christian, they were very distanced from the European mainland and the heart of Christianity. Therefore, the traditions in Iceland could be more well preserved as a result, as there were no neighbouring cultures or influences to exert themselves on Iceland. That "half" correction, and some more thoughts about Beowulf in general. Beowulf, as we posses it today, did not "exist" exactly in the older era due to the nature of what the Norse would have described as "Skaldic" poetry, though Beowulf would not necessarily fit this category as a poem. But it was still orally delivered, and only written down in Old English much later after the fact. There is, in fact, no one truth about "who created Beowulf." Tolkien proposed that it was compiled by a single Christian monk who created this epic out of nostalgia for his peoples' pagan past. Crucially, Tolkien also argued that the poet clearly held some kind of lived memory of it, in other words it was within his, or at least his father's, generation. But there are also scholars who propose that it was several monks who were trying to piece together a collection of Old English stories and poems about this one hero that they called Beowulf. The strongest evidence for this is the fact that the manuscript was found in a collection of other monster stories, including ones taken from Greek mythology. This was clearly a topic that interested these monks, almost like modern enthusiasts today, they simply seemed to enjoy fantasy and the idea of monster-stories. The second key piece of evidence is the difference between the first half of the poem and the second half. Even Tolkien admitted that the first half concerning Grendel and his mother fit together better as one poem better than including the dragon episode, which feels like a separate later episode. Hence why it seems to fit the narrative that it was an older collection of remembered and half-remembered stories about Beowulf that were assembled into a larger poem at a later date. The juxtaposition of Christian and pagan imagery in the poem further supports this, as it can feel like Christians trying to make sense of, and trying to contextualise, a much older poem.

[@israaahmed7168]

I highly recommend checking out Emily Wilson’s translation of The Odyssey!!!

[@madisongoodyear5040]

It’s Dwight Schrute speaking Dothraki!!

[@cmmosher8035]

Weird question, do you know if i follow your amazon link and move to the canadian amazon, will that still help? Any ways, i really enjoyed your discussion. Best literature lecture i have listened to in a while.

[@nl3237]

Great opening! It made me question if Mordor's language isn't inspired by it. Not that you sounded evil, Philip. It's just sounded similar in my ear. But what do I know 🤷‍♀️

[@TheAceReviews]

Is there an edition with the book cover shown in the video?

[@KalleVilenius]

Tad Williams is something you can't not binge, just can't put the books down. My only exposure to Beowulf still remains that weird motion-capture movie Zemeckis made, sounds like the source material is better. That swimming contest stuck in my mind for some reason, like something Baron Munchhausen would claim to have done.

[@cfosburg]

I loved this. How can Beowulf not be one of the top fantasy novels or at least top influencers of fantasy. There are a lot of similarities between Beowulf and Lord the Rings. But I think there are even more in the Poetic Edda. I also would love to see other influences explored further such as the Legend of King Arthur. (Le Morte D’Arthur, Idylls of the King), Celtic tales, and Norse tales. It would be REALLY cool to see you have a conversation with Old Norse professor #Jacksoncrawford.

[@turtleanton6539]

Oh very interesting

[@VicRibeiro777]

This is awesome, thank you for this. What is the difference between the Tolkien translation and the other translations?

[@Nikelaos_Khristianos]

The Tolkien translation is written in prose, whereas most translations will opt for verse in order to retain the essence of the poem. So it's not really a great first read of the poem as it hasn't been written with poetry in mind. For greater context, it was never meant to be published as a poem or indeed read by anyone other than his students. Tolkien created it as a study guide for his students. The real value of his translation isn't his version of the poem, it's actually his translator's notes which are incredibly robust go into a tonne of detail about his word choices and everything in-between. That's the real value of Tolkien's.

[@JonathanRossignol]

Good chat, fellas. #LFLR "VBW"

[@atom0191]

🤩🤩🤩

[@ToddsBookTube91]

What is your guys opinion on the NO FEAR BEOWULF edition?

[@currangill430]

I need to know, Mike, is there any squelching in Beowulf?

[@dpeady78]

Watched the intro: got heaps much bigger smarter!

[@darrow74]

What the hell is this man made of!? Awesome video

[@demidrek-heyward]

dope

[@mudhuthanudimmudkahagadulh4657]

English sounds way better than the creole tung we speak today

[@goldenspiral6008]

Really interesting discussion. I just want to add that (unless I misheard) you guys used the word "machismo" as if it meant being over the top manly. However, "machismo" actually means sexism in the favour of men. With the oposite vartiant being "hembrismo".

[@mikesbookreviews]

Straight from Webster’s: ma·chis·mo /mäˈCHēzmō/ noun strong or aggressive masculine pride.

[@goldenspiral6008]

@@mikesbookreviews Hmm. I guess the term was adapted through being used by english speakers. And that´s ok. It´s just that the phrases in which you used that word sounded really weird as a native spanish speaker.

[@Nikelaos_Khristianos]

@@goldenspiral6008 Loan-words between languages often don't retain their original meanings from the language it was borrowed from. Unless it's a universalism like, "computer" for example.

[@donblosser8720]

Sorry but the dumb little bird story ( 11:37 ) left me cold. I did not find it "wonderful" or "beautiful." Your running transcript ascribed the story to "beta" which I figured out was "the Venerable Bede". If this bird story is any indication, uh, not so venerable. A description of utter darkness behind us and only darkness ahead, so let's all just eat, drink, and be merry. Let's all just quaff some more mead and not think about the big questions. That's pretty pathetic. Which leads me to conclude that I'm listening to two modern pagans discussing a story written by a Christian about ancient pagans. Certainly not the perspective of Tolkein. Even more certainly not my perspective. Having a reliable communication from my Maker, the Holy Bible, I know for certain where I came from and I know where I am going after I die. Which gives my life purpose and meaning. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make mankind in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the livestock and over all the earth, and over every crawling thing that crawls on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it... 9 This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. " John 14:1 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be. 4 And you know the way where I am going.” 5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going; how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me. 1 John 5:9 "If we receive the testimony of people, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.